The Philip DeFranco Show - PDS 12.8 This iShowSpeed Kai Cenat Destiny Scandal Keeps Getting Worse, TikTok Banned, Brittney Griner Trade

Starting point is 00:00:00 If I sound weird today, it's because I am still recovering from my dental work yesterday. But I'm gonna power through, I give you a fantastic, huge Thursday show today. So buckle up, hit that like button to show you like them big ones, and let's just jump into it. Starting with the mess that is this whole iShowSpeed racism controversy. So iShowSpeed, if you're not aware because we're all in our different pockets on the internet, one of the biggest streamers in the world. He's absolutely blowing up, his live streams get like 1.5 to 3 million on the regular. You've got celebrities coming through, I think one of the most recent was Lil Nas X was one of his newest streams

Starting point is 00:00:28 It's gotten the most attention being one that got around 8 million views It's called IRL stream at World Cup meeting Ronaldo speed is absolutely infatuated with Ronaldo to the point that it's a mean also a clip From that live stream went absolutely viral on social media and it's because he sees a fan there in an Argentina Jersey and this happens Why you got an Argentina jersey, and this happens. Right, so the clip goes absolutely viral, people chiming in, calling Speeds behavior racist, people saying things like, I know he's still young and people make mistakes, but I'm kind of over racist jokes towards Asians being more okay because we don't get in your face about it. And how are people finding this funny? It's insane how people give racist jokes passes when it's towards Asian people. Though with this, you also had many of

Starting point is 00:01:14 Speed's fans defending him. Speed himself also addressing the situation very quickly in a Twitter video. Hey guys, it's a clip going around where people are saying I'm being racist to an Asian guy. You know, and I just wanted to say some things, you know, I wasn'm being racist to an asian guy you know and i just wanted to say some things you know i wasn't being racist to him i promise you you know i seen him i thought he was uh you know when i see uh i thought he was japanese so i was like i say konichiwa i watch a lot of anime when i thought he was chinese you know i tried to say a nickname that they call me in chinese i literally was just talking to a chinese person earlier today at 433 and they said they love me and i I love Chinese people. So I try to say Zhong Kong, like Chong Kong.

Starting point is 00:01:47 Like it's a nickname that they call me China. That did come off anyway. If I did offend any Asian person out there, trust me, man, I'm not racist. I love Asian. I love all, man. So I apologize if that came out that way. Love you guys, man.

Starting point is 00:02:03 Peace out. Hope you accept my apology. And so with that, ultimately like other situations like this, it was just kind of left to the court of public opinion. But from there, other commentators started getting involved, and we saw the ripple effect. Right first, you had people like XQC chiming in, saying he knows what it's like to be labeled a racist, calling it fucking lame. But the take that probably got the most attention was from a streamer by the name of Destiny. Is this the Kai Senate guy? Oh, this is the Speed guy. Okay. There's like this whole new legion

Starting point is 00:02:25 of like black Zoomer streamers and for as much as they f***ing talk about how like all white people did was scream at the f***ing camera, um I feel like that's all these guys do. I have, I don't know. I don't know if they have more content, but holy shit. And so Kai

Starting point is 00:02:41 Senate, who if you don't know is one of the biggest streamers in the world in fact he just, he won streamer of the year just a few days ago, this take from Destiny gets around to him and he reacts. First of all what you're not gonna do is not gonna act like you don't know who is who, dickhead. You obviously know who the I am and who the speed is. So stop acting stupid. I don't know if they have more content but let me go ahead and hate on them for what I see. I don't know if they do more content, but let me go ahead and hate on them

Starting point is 00:03:07 for what I see. How about you do your f***ing research, bitch? Do your f***ing research before you say shit, and clearly you are a racist, but guess what? I don't give a f***.

Starting point is 00:03:15 And honestly, you have everyone sounding off. There's too many people to mention, so we'll just go back to XQC jumping back into the mix with him criticizing Destiny for his comments. I just think it's lame

Starting point is 00:03:22 that we get diversity in the top streamers and all their f***ing shit. into the mix with him criticizing Destiny for his comments. I just think it's lame that like we get diversity in like, in like, top streamers and all, and all their and all like the efforts or whatever are all combined to, oh yeah, the black dudes that just yell. Like what the is that shit, man? I think it's unnecessary, that's all.

Starting point is 00:03:39 With all this going down, you have people pointing to Destiny watching Speed's apology video and then saying, It's so funny to watch like some of the minority communities catch up to like where like the white community was for wokeness like 10 years ago because like he's probably he's not racist right i doubt he's racist but he doesn't realize that like the jokes he's saying are kind of like not okay because they just haven't had those conversations yet probably on that side of the internet or in those communities like white people have been like obsessively having these conversations for a decade um so i understand that i can understand the perspective from like his point of view it's like bro i'm not ready so i don't hate asian

Starting point is 00:04:13 people but we're we're way way way past in the white world racism is like an advanced like that's like a 400 level class or whatever the we've got advanced levels of racism here, okay? And so ultimately you have this extremely fucking messy situation where depending on where you go on social media, vastly different reactions, right? You go one place, you see takes like, hey, fuck speed for this, Destiny's right. Then you go somewhere else and people are saying,

Starting point is 00:04:36 fuck Destiny, Kai Sinet's exactly right about him. Then you go somewhere else and you see people saying, hey, fuck speed and fuck Destiny. They were both being racist. Kai Sinet has a justifiable reason to be angry. He's catching some racist stray. So that's why with this story, I want to know your thoughts.

Starting point is 00:04:49 And we got that brand new Sunday show that allows us to like actually dive into the conversation that people are having, this argument, that argument. And hopefully we can have a conversation about it while people are throwing bombs at each other online. And then, Brittany Griner is finally free, but so is the merchant of death. So Griner, the WNBA star and two-time Olympic gold medalist,

Starting point is 00:05:05 was arrested in a Moscow airport last February for allegedly illegally carrying a cannabis oil, which was then almost immediately put on trial, convicted, and sent to a penal colony last month, where, horrifyingly, she was prepared to stay for the next eight years. But now, that's all come to an end after Biden announced that she is actually coming home, saying that the U.S. agreed to a prisoner swap exchange in Greiner

Starting point is 00:05:23 for the notorious Russian arms dealer, Victor Boo, otherwise known as the merchant of death, who has been locked up in the U.s. Agreed to a prisoner swap exchanging grinder for the notorious Russian arms dealer Victor boo otherwise known as the merchant of death who has been Locked up in the u.s. For 12 years if you don't know about him He began gun running in the wake of the Soviet Union's chaotic collapse and making a name for himself selling weapons to rebels terrorists and Shady governments all over the world even inspiring the 2005 film Lord of War in which he was played by Nicolas Cage But now both are free and while it's a diplomatic win for Biden It's also taken some of the spotlight off of Russia's war in Ukraine, where Kyiv actually made one of its most daring moves on Monday, striking two military bases with drones hundreds of miles deep into

Starting point is 00:05:51 Russian territory. But where I'll leave this story is with the obligatory, fuck Putin. And also, I'd love to know your thoughts here regarding this exchange. And then, China just invented a motherfucking invisibility cloak. Ah! But don't get too excited. It doesn't literally make you invisible, but it does effectively hide you from AI-monitored security cameras, which are everywhere in China. So reportedly, this was designed by a team of four graduate students at Wuhan University who won the first prize at the Huawei Cup.

Starting point is 00:06:15 And the thing that makes this so innovative is that it looks like a normal coat to any other human observer. Right, so you don't look like a zebra among horses. But it has a specially designed camouflage pattern that blinds normal cameras during the daytime and emits unusual heat patterns at night, meaning it also confuses the infrared cameras. And when the students tested it on campus security cameras,

Starting point is 00:06:31 the accuracy of pedestrian detection was reduced by 57%, which would be especially troubling for the Chinese authorities, where even you have police cameras watch people in apartment buildings, on street corners and subways, and basically everywhere else, with eight of the most surveilled cities in the world

Starting point is 00:06:43 belonging to China. But before you say, yes, the revolution, or oh my gosh, I hope these students are going to be safe. Fortunately for the CCP, these students aren't making this to help protesters or anyone resisting the state. Rather, they're doing it to help detect vulnerabilities in China's surveillance system and advance cybersecurity tech. But as far as what's next on the agenda, they plan to expand their cloaking tech to inanimate objects and cars, also aiming to undermine other types of cameras like those using remote sensing satellites and aircraft so you know nothing concerning at all and then apple is giving the fbi the middle finger sort of with apple announcing yesterday that they

Starting point is 00:07:13 will be providing the option for users to fully encrypt their icloud backups with the goal of putting that data out of reach for most hackers but also notably law enforcement because while notably it said that i messages between apple devices are already end-to-end encrypted most users also back up their i messagesessages photos and other content to their iCloud, where Apple could then retrieve it for locked out users or law enforcement, also making it reachable by determined hackers to use for embarrassment at best and extortion at worst. So Apple has decided that the best option is to make data end-to-end encrypted within the cloud. Though a key thing here is they've actually been trying to do this for years. Right back in 2020,

Starting point is 00:07:42 they floated the idea, but the FBI pushed back against it, so they dropped it. Instead, at the time, just walling off specific data like passwords, payment, and health information within the cloud. But now, all data will be encrypted within iCloud, with the exception of things like emails, calendar, and contact data, because they require interoperation with multiple providers. Now, with this, it's expected that law enforcement and governments are going to have something to say about it, considering their long-standing opposition to encryption in the name of national security. But what this is going to look like, it up in the air whether it be the complaints we saw last time or even legislative or court action in fact late last night the fbi told the washington

Starting point is 00:08:11 post it is quote deeply concerned with a threat end to end and user only access encryption pose but either way it looks like we're going to be seeing this option rather quickly the reportedly set to be available to us users by the end of the year and international users next year so let me know do you love this do you hate hate this? Are you somewhat torn? Any and all thoughts, I'd love to hear. And then with football, basketball, hockey, and concerts all in full swing, there's an event for everyone

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Starting point is 00:09:16 It's Christmas in 17 days. But, Lily is correct. We've talked about previous efforts at the federal level to impose bans and other regulations on the app many times before. But now, what we're seeing are state leaders taking the matter into their own hands. Just yesterday, for example, Texas Governor Greg Abbott ordered that all state agencies ban the use of TikTok on any government-issued phones and computers. And in a letter to state officials, Abbott specifically cited concerns over data security on the Chinese-owned app, writing, TikTok harvests vast amounts of data from its users' devices, including when, where, and how they conduct internet activity, and offers this trove of potentially sensitive information to the Chinese government.

Starting point is 00:09:48 And adding, while TikTok has claimed that it stores U.S. data within the U.S., the company admitted in a letter to Congress that China-based employees can have access to U.S. data. And it's also been reported that ByteDance planned to use TikTok location information to surveil individual American citizens. With a letter also going on to mention how China's 2017 National Intelligence Law requires businesses to help China with intelligence work, including data sharing.

Starting point is 00:10:07 And noting that the algorithm already censors certain topics that are politically sensitive to the Chinese government. But also a key thing here is that Abbott is just the most recent Republican governor to take this kind of action. I mean, just this week alone, you had Maryland's Republican governor issuing an emergency directive banning the use of TikTok and other quote, "'Chinese and Russian influence products'

Starting point is 00:10:23 in the executive branch of the state government." And the governor of South Carolina also requesting the state's department of administration block TikTok on all state government devices that it manages. And all of that comes after South Dakota's governor also barred all state employees and contractors from using TikTok on state-owned devices. And the reason I mention all these individual decisions is that these things are happening in rapid succession. Prior to the last two weeks, Nebraska was the only state to impose these kinds of bans. and they did it back in 2020. But all this now is likely in part due to the fact that last week, FBI Director Chris Wray raised new concerns about the app, saying its algorithm allows them to manipulate content, and if they want to, to use it for influence operations,

Starting point is 00:10:55 which is why more bans could be on the horizon. With just this week, a group of Wisconsin's members of Congress asking the state's Democratic governor to ban TikTok from state devices, and legislators in Arkansas drafting a similar bill for the next session. Hell, just yesterday, Indiana's attorney general filed two lawsuits against TikTok, with the first accusing the company of misleading users about how safe the app is for children, claiming that it exposes them to inappropriate content despite its 12-plus age rating on the app store. The second alleging that the platform deceived customers about China's ability to access their data, saying that it has the ability to spy on, blackmail, and coerce users in the name of Chinese national security. And those suits are actually massive because they've been described as the first of their kind against TikTok

Starting point is 00:11:28 and one of the strongest moves against the social media giant taken by a state. Now that said, TikTok for its part responded with the classic vague kind of corporate bullshit saying in a statement that the safety, privacy, and security of our community is our top priority and adding that it has many tools and policies to ensure children are only accessing age-appropriate content, and that ongoing negotiations with the U.S. government will address all national security concerns. And a spokesperson also telling the media that TikTok believes that the efforts are largely fueled by misinformation about our company. But I will say, as someone that has a large audience on TikTok, we're about to pass a billion views after just a year. Even I have concerns about what's really happening. And then, in an amazing act of unity,

Starting point is 00:12:02 Congress has done the bare minimum. It's both exciting and depressing when you really think about it. Like, this shouldn't have to be a thing, it shouldn't really even be a thing in question, but I am happy to report that the House has passed the Respect for Marriage Act. So it's on its way to Joe Biden's desk, and when he signs it, same-sex and interracial marriage will be codified in federal law. You know, for a while, we didn't know if this was actually going to go through. We even had Senator Tammy Baldwin, who helped lead the charge for the bills passing on the show. One of the big questions at the time being, could Baldwin and others believe the Republicans who said they would vote for it, but only after the election? And enough stayed true to their word.

Starting point is 00:12:32 But notably, the Senate did have to add an amendment to soothe the concerns from Republicans over religious liberty. But ultimately, the Senate got it there, 61 to 36. Now the House making its way through, 25 to 169 with 39 Republicans joining Democrats. So the elephant in the room, of course, is that 169 people voted against it, including one Republican representative who spoke out against it saying, Mr. Speaker, I'll tell you my priority. Protect religious liberty, protect people of faith, and protect Americans who believe in the true meaning of marriage. I hope and pray that my colleagues

Starting point is 00:13:07 will find the courage to join me in opposing this misguided and this dangerous bill. Like I try to put myself in other people's shoes, but I just, I can't imagine a world where I would be brought to tears because gay people get to have some of the same rights as me. This coming from a person that likely calls others snowflakes. And remember, she's crying over a thing that doesn't even fully do what it should do.

Starting point is 00:13:33 A key thing with this law is it's not going to force states to issue marriage licenses for same-sex couples. It just requires a state to go, oh, we recognize this marriage as long as the marriage license is valid where it was performed. Repealing Bill Clinton's 1996 Defense of Marriage Act that defined marriages between a man and a woman, which also gave states the ability to not recognize same-sex marriages performed in other states, which is part of the reason why it's like it's a day to celebrate, but also it's a day to be like, man, we truly live in a world where we have to celebrate the

Starting point is 00:13:59 bare fucking minimum. And then they tried to overthrow the German government. If you didn't see, 25 people were arrested early Wednesday morning by German police for plotting to overthrow the government in a violent coup. With the majority of those arrested being accused of being a part of a terrorist organization. And the remainder, including a Russian national, are said to be supporters. So key details. The arrests were part of a series of raids that stretched across 11 of Germany's states and into Austria and Italy. Also, an additional 27 people had properties searched in the raids and reportedly being investigated on suspicion of being members or supporters, with this organization said to subscribe to several conspiracy theories. Most notably here, the idea that Germany's Republic

Starting point is 00:14:30 after World War II doesn't actually exist, but is rather an administrative construct set up by the Allies. With Germany's federal public prosecutor's statement saying, they are firmly convinced that Germany is currently governed by members of a so-called deep state. And according to the statement, this group was planning on installing their own government and leader after their coup. They'd also gathered new members, established a new administrative structure, obtained weapons, and provided shooting lessons to their ranks.

Starting point is 00:14:50 Oh my God, why does it sound familiar? And they were prepared to use those lessons with the prosecutor's statement saying, the members of the association are aware that this project can only be realized through the use of military means and violence against state representatives. This also includes the commission of homicides.

Starting point is 00:15:03 With some even suspected of making plans for an armed force entry into Germany's parliament building. I know where I've heard this story before. But also, we saw German lawmakers drawing a comparison between this organization and the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol on January 6th, saying, At the latest since January 6th, 2021, we have known that anti-democratic speech can also be followed by actions directed against democracy and parliament. Today, the German security authorities have succeeded in putting a stop to such plans to seize power. With 19 of those arrested, reprimanded in court yesterday, and the remaining six set to see a judge today. But hey, here's what I'll say. Good job, Germany.

Starting point is 00:15:31 Maybe it's because it is your history, but it is good to see a country understand history, so you sufficiently take serious the threat of an armed insurrection. Because sometimes when you don't take it serious, and maybe people just get a slap on the wrist, it's just a test run. You don't use kid gloves on fascists who've got murder on their mind. And then, since we're already talking about coups today, we should talk about Peru. Because they just arrested President Pedro Castillo for trying to abolish the constitutional order. If you didn't see this yesterday, he tried to get rid of Congress and take power. The far left Castillo took office last year after a tight runoff election and his opponents were not fans of his and they controlled Congress, which then

Starting point is 00:16:03 enacted its constitutional right to use the Attorney General to investigate him on like six different corruption charges, three of which eventually led to what are called constitutional complaints, aka de facto charges against him. With all that leading to Castillo claiming that his opponents have been trying to enact their own coup since day one through these investigations, and all the while he couldn't keep ministers in office as they kept resigning or being replaced, and more corruption allegations came out against him and his close friends and family, with it eventually coming to a head yesterday when Congress made it clear that it was going to vote to impeach the president. And at this point, it wasn't just those on the right, with many of Castillo's own party ditching him. However, the president attempted to play his trap card and claimed that he was abolishing Congress and enacting an emergency government that would rule by decree.

Starting point is 00:16:38 And during that time, he hoped that a new parliamentary election could take place in order to draft a new constitution. Now, this move was widely denounced both within Peru and by the international community as a coup. Within the country, many of the president's own cabinet and party members abandoned ship and resigned en masse. Even Dina Boloarte, his own vice president, had ditched him by this point and tweeted, I reject the decision by Pedro Castillo to perpetrate the breakdown of the constitutional order by closing Congress. It's a coup d'etat that aggravates the political and institutional crisis that Peruvian society will have to overcome with strict adherence to the law. And internationally, we saw the U.S. ambassador to Peru tweet out,

Starting point is 00:17:09 the U.S. strongly urges President Castillo to reverse his attempt to shut down Congress and allow Peru's democratic institutions to function according to the Constitution. And adding, we encourage the Peruvian public to remain calm during this uncertain time. While Argentina's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said, Argentina regrets and expresses its deep concern over the political crisis that the sister republic of Peru is going through, and calls on all political and social actors to safeguard democratic institutions, the rule of law, and constitutional order." And within Peru itself, there was almost no time for people to actually panic about what would happen. With the military quick to say no and called it an infringement of the Constitution.

Starting point is 00:17:39 Shortly after that, Congress was like, Yeah, no. With a meeting up anyways and voting to impeach and remove him from office. And in the end, 101 of 130 members voted to get rid of Castillo with just six members of his own party voting against the measure. He was also charged with rebellion and arrested while he was still on his way out of the area by his own police escort. Also, his wife alongside his sister in law are both under heavy scrutiny for their alleged corruption, with a ton of accusations out there that there was a whole web around Castillo that was used to enrich those close to

Starting point is 00:18:04 him. And while Castillo obviously denies all this, it remains to be seen how Peru is going to handle all of this. But in the meantime, Boloarte has been sworn in as president and is the country's first female president. While in the streets of Peru we've seen Castillo's followers coming out to protest, many have praised Peru for taking such quick action and stopping this illegal power grab. Which I will say, as an American, it's very interesting to see what happens in a country where, you know, the president who tries to destroy the country and become a dictator actually gets held responsible. And the guy's not even done, he just recently called for the Constitution to be completely ignored and installed into power. But anyway.

Starting point is 00:18:33 And then, I'm a hungry man, boy, daddy, whatever you want to call me. But the main point being I like snacks, which is why I want to tell you about a sponsor of the PDS, Bokksu. Bokksu is my favorite Japanese snack box. They work with family businesses throughout Japan to send you a new theme of authentic treats every month. The first Bokksu you'll receive is Seasons of Japan, and after that, you'll receive a new themed box like this one. We already got a little sneak peek of the next box, which is Shinshan New Year, which I will say the matcha chocolate-covered strawberries are insane. Sweet and slightly sour. It even comes

Starting point is 00:19:00 with a booklet that takes you through the theme, the origins of the snacks, and details on the flavors. You know, I love Japan. When I went, I don't often get the chance, so I like having a little piece of it, like, delivered to me. Especially when that little piece is something I can eat. And, not just for you, if you're looking to get creative with your holiday gifting, Bokksu is a great choice. Yeah, it's great to surprise someone with a thing, but also a unique experience. And you get to support the show at the same time. Win, win, win.

Starting point is 00:19:22 So click that link in the description now and use code DEFRANCO15 to get $15 off your first Bokksu order. And then, we're best friends, right? Well, actually, no. I can have a deep appreciation for you. You can have a deep appreciation for me. But we don't actually know each other. But, also understand, it's not weird. A lot of you probably feel attached to some celebrity, a podcaster, an influencer, an artist, a creator, or some sort of public figure.

Starting point is 00:19:40 That's something that's already happened, but especially something that's more understandable as the content's gotten more personal. And it's something that's become fairly normal as a part of media consumption, and of course, we've talked about it before, parasocial relationships. And for me, this isn't like a completely new feeling. Even with characters on scripted shows, I feel connections with them.

Starting point is 00:19:54 Sometimes when series end, I feel like I just got broken up with. This thing that made me feel something and what was ultimately a one-sided relationship is now gone. But because I think we're seeing this more and more, I wanted to learn more about it. I wanted to try to understand parasocial relationships more, talk about, you know, how they impact us.

Starting point is 00:20:08 So we reached out to Dr. Gail Stever, a professor of psychology at Empire State College, who has studied parasocial theory and interaction for decades. It turns out the reason why we form these relationships, it sounds simple, but it's also very interesting. It has to do with the fact that our brain is wired to always look for a social connection, whether it be in person or just watching something on a screen. And there's a- What's better than a well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue?

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Starting point is 00:20:45 $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. Part of your brain that can't really tell the difference between a person in real life and a person through media. So those images and voices are all being processed as if they are real. If you see the same face and voice over and over and over, your human tendency is to want to form a relationship with that person. So it also feels like it makes sense to learn that some of the earlier studies on parasocial relationships actually focused on soap operas. I don't know if you had a parent like this, but my stepmom loved soap operas. Or the closest thing the younger generation had to that were like daily vloggers or people binging stuff on Netflix. But specifically with older people, because they tend to spend a lot of time

Starting point is 00:21:30 alone, soaps filled a social void. Parasocial relationships can fill all sorts of void for anyone, whether it be role models, entertainment, companionship, or even romance. But Steve were pointing to one woman that she had met recently who lost her husband to cancer. So she thinks, you know, the romantic part of my life, it's over. But then all of a sudden she becomes a huge fan of Josh Groban. And even though she was much older than him, she was likely not going to meet him. She had a crush on him. What did that do for her? Well, what she said was, I realized that that part of my emotions was still there, that I could still have a romantic feeling about somebody. And I'm thinking now about dating again. With Stever also noting that is an example of a very healthy parasocial relationship. One where it's not like she's stalking this guy and it

Starting point is 00:22:08 actually helped her break down walls of her social life. Without you specifically realizing it, you may have formed some parasocial relationships to fill the gaps in your life as well. Especially with us now coming out of the pandemic. During the empanada, there was increased loneliness for basically everyone. The Paraguay made it more likely that we would connect to people we saw on our screens. With Stever even saying during that time, she joked that Stephen Colbert was her parasocial therapist. And he was helping you as a viewer process the challenges of the pandemic by letting you see how he was coping with it. In that particular case, using humor to help sort of diffuse

Starting point is 00:22:39 some of the tension of what people were experiencing socially. So you walk away from the show and you feel like, oh gosh, there's somebody else who understands what I'm going through. And Colbert wasn't the only one doing that. All the late night hosts were, as well as influencers and celebrities. So during the perineum, consuming and interacting with all this media became a very universal experience. But understand, while it was certainly heightened during the panini, it was something that just existed because of social media. Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, right me right now. You have people talking to the camera

Starting point is 00:23:07 directly addressing the people that are watching it. Whether that be speaking generally or saying specific names like, hi James. And this form of direct communication that's become massively popular online has changed how we engage with these relationships. It's a very interpersonal feeling to the interaction. I do think that social media, because of the direct address, has formed a more intimate kind of parasocial relationship. And it can feel personal when we see these people on our screens every day. And I understand this. I understand before I made videos and I felt like

Starting point is 00:23:35 I was fostering a community, I was someone in the stands watching. Hell, it's part of the reason I even started this show. I used to watch the show as a frank. And when it ended, I felt like, oh, my God, where'd my sense of community go? It, so familiarity and repetition, it's a huge part of it. I would venture that these media people that we watch over and over and over, we know more about them than we know about our neighbors. For me, that is a fact. And social media also opens the door for there to be a two-way interaction. There's always a chance they're gonna see what you say and they might even respond to your post or your comment. With Steve Riebman noting that yeah, through these interactions, it is a two-way street. Celebrities might actually recognize and

Starting point is 00:24:06 know certain fans based on the interactions. But in addition to all of that social media has allowed fans to connect more with one another. Stever's actually been studying fandom since back in the 80s and back then they put out ads and magazines looking for people to join pen pal groups. But now in an instant you can access a whole world of people with a device that fits in your back pocket and they can go on Facebook or Instagram and find like-minded fans and become part of a network of fans and have that be part of their social life. Now with fandoms you might automatically jump to the most extreme situations. You think about the most extreme fans, you think about scary stories, hearing about celebrities being stalked and harassed. Right online there have been instances

Starting point is 00:24:38 of like extreme fans, stalkers showing up, police getting involved. I mean there was a story I won't mention who, but police had to show up and shoot and kill this person. Then you see situations like Tana Mojo having a stalker sending her photos of a guy holding a knife outside of her house. Now he found my new house's address. He lives out of a van. He messages me like every second. He sent a photo of his dick too. And that also kind of feels like a trend, right? We've seen the likes of Belle Delphine saying she got death threats from stalkers, right? People taking photos of themselves outside of her house in the middle of the night. And so we see these stories in the news all the time.

Starting point is 00:25:08 But Stever says that this kind of dangerous behavior may not be directly related to that person's parasocial relationship with a celebrity in the way that we think. There are people out there who think celebrity worship is a slippery slope to mental illness. I haven't seen it. I've done case studies of fans for over 30 years and I meet a lot of fans face

Starting point is 00:25:25 to face. Most of the fans I meet who are troubled fans, who are engaging in a way that's not healthy, have an underlying mental illness. So Steve was saying that it's less to do with the parasocial attachment and far more with a pre-existing mental illness that they've been struggling with. It's more so the mental illness aspect that causes a bigger problem, leading to troubling behavior. Based off her observations, superfans are not necessarily more likely to suffer from mental illness than the general population at large. And saying in her experience, the fans that she met are largely grounded in reality

Starting point is 00:25:54 of sound mind and understand they'll likely never meet the celebrity that they love. Though, notable thing, saying their feelings on this might be moderately controversial because it requires more research. So there is room for disagreement among experts. It's the old, as I already said, chicken and the egg question, which came first, the fixation on the celebrity or the underlying issue that has caused them to become fixated. And it really, we need a whole lot more research to definitively answer that question.

Starting point is 00:26:20 And even though Stever noted that there is wiggle room for how people understand this, this idea that the behavior of superfans and stalkers being separate, that's actually been echoed by a number of people who have experienced it themselves. With Alexis Bowater, for example, a TV presenter and news reporter in the UK who's been stalked herself telling BBC News that she feels that superfans and stalkers have little in common. Though here, it is also worth noting that there are other things that experts have suggested to watch out for to make sure parasocial relationships do not become unhealthy. One of the big things, make sure these relationships don't actually replace relationships with people that you know. Also, don't think about these relationships as mutual.

Starting point is 00:26:50 With all that said, and us now on the other side of this conversation, I do want to pass a question off to you. What are your thoughts on this topic? Also, what are your experiences with this or experiences that you've also witnessed? But that is where today's show ends. As always, thank you for watching, liking, and being a part of these daily dives into the news. Remember, whether it be this show or the previous three, I'm going to be taking some of your comments and talking about them on Sunday. But as always, my name's Philip DeFranco. You've just been filled in. I love your faces and I'll see you Sunday.

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