The Philip DeFranco Show - PDS 9.10 New Tyreek Hill Bodycam Footage Exposed A Lot, Haitian Migrants Pet-Eating Lies & 9/11 Trial Failure

Episode Date: September 10, 2024

Go to http://zbiotics.com/DEFRANCO and use code DEFRANCO at checkout to get up to 15% off your first order. Use code defranco at https://incogni.com/defranco to get an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan. Get your first https://WakeandMake.com Bags of delicious coffee for 25-50% OFF! And get your international coffee club membership while spots are open! 56 Days Until Election Day! Make Sure You Are Registered to VOTE: https://Vote.org  – ✩ TODAY’S STORIES ✩ – 00:00 - Police Release Bodycam Footage of Tyreek Hill Arrest 04:35 - Springfield, OH Officials Debunk Claims Haitian Migrants Are Eating People’s Pets 10:35 - Sponsored by ZBiotics 11:40 - Nearly 160 Sickened by Unregulated Diamond Shruumz Mushroom Edibles 16:37 - Two Charged for Running “Terrorgram” Telegram Group Linked to Numerous Crimes 20:12 - Sponsored by Incogni 21:16 - Families of 9/11 Victims Still Waiting for Justice as Trials Keep Hitting Hurdles  ——————————   Produced by: Cory Ray Edited by: James Girardier, Maxwell Enright, Julie Goldberg, Christian Meeks, Matthew Henry Art Department: William Crespo Writing/Research: Philip DeFranco, Brian Espinoza, Lili Stenn, Maddie Crichton, Chris Tolve, Star Pralle, Jared Paolino Associate Producer on 9/11 Trials: Jared Paolino ———————————— #DeFranco #TyreekHill #Hasanabi ———————————— Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There's a lot of wild news we got to talk about today. We've got updates to what the Tyreek Hill body cam footage really exposes. The truth about claims that illegal Haitian immigrants are eating people's pets in Springfield, Ohio. Magic mushroom sweets have been linked to hospitalizations and deaths. And we've got to break down this 9-11 trial and plea deal scandal because it's just wild. So you just hit that like button, make sure you're subscribed, and let's jump into it. This is a news show. Yo, we got to talk about this Tyreek Hill situation.

Because depending on where you go on the internet right now, the reaction is either fuck Tyreek Hill or fuck them cops. So I figure let's go through everything that we know. And in fact, there is a lot of video from multiple different angles of the situation. Right? And so if you've never heard of the name Tyreek Hill, he is a star player in the NFL. And right now he plays wide receiver for the Miami Dolphins, who also just had their opening game of the season against the Jacksonville Jaguars on Sunday. But just hours before that actual game was set to start, he was driving to the stadium and Hill

got pulled over for speeding. Later on, he'd admit to the cops that he was going 55 and a 40, with a body cam footage released last night by the Miami-Dade Police Department showing what happened next. So Hill rolls his window back up, later explaining to CNN his thinking at the time. Hey, if I let my window down, like people walking by, driving by, they gonna notice that it's me and they gonna start taking pictures.

And I didn't wanna create a scene at all. Like I just really wanted to get the ticket and then just go on about my way and then just, you know, just have a great Sunday. But what we see is that the cop really doesn't like that, with him ordering Hill to lower the window and knocking on it again. Keep it down.

Hey! But after 10 seconds, we don't see Hill do that, so the cop knocks again. Hey! Keep your window down. Don't tell me what- Keep your window down, I'm gonna get you out of the car.

As a matter of fact, get out of the car. With Hill then telling them to hold on, saying he's gonna get out, and then another cop threatening to break the window if he doesn't. Now here, according to Hill's attorney, the reason he didn't immediately get out was that he was unbuckling his seatbelt

and he was calling the Dolphins director of security. Also claiming due to a recent surgery on his knee and the particular design of his car, he couldn't just jump right out. And so instead of him getting out on his own, the cops grab him themselves. We're not playing this game. Get out.

Get out. Get out. Get out. Get out, get out, get out. Get out, get out, get out. Get out! Damn! What part of God are you in this thing? Right with a scene, two cops pushing him to the ground and putting him in handcuffs just a minute and a half after first knocking on his window.

They then pull him back up to his feet, guide him to the sidewalk and force him onto his knees, despite him protesting. I just had surgery on my knee. I just had surgery on my knee, bro. I just had surgery on my knee, bro. I just had surgery on my knee, bro! I just had surgery in your ears when we go there with you and your dog!

Chill, bro, chill, bro! Meanwhile, we see another Dolphins player, Calais Campbell, show up at the scene and he tries to talk to the officers to help his friend. But after he refused to leave, the cops put him in handcuffs too. Though notably, he was later let go without any charges. The cops then also allowing Tyreek to leave

with two traffic tickets for careless driving and not wearing a seatbelt. And he did make it to the game after all. With him then scoring a wild 80 yard touchdown and helping his team clinch a comeback victory 20 to 17. With him even putting his arms behind his back to symbolize his arrest as his touchdown celebration. And actually in regards to this,

he went on CNN to put some words behind this gesture saying that he's still shell shocked and embarrassed. If I wasn't Tyreek Hill, worst case scenario, we would have had a different article, you know? Tyreek Hill, you know, got shot in front of Hard Rock stadium. And there we do know from the body cams that at least some of the cops knew who he was at the time.

You know who that is, right? Huh? You know who that is? No. He's one of the Dolphins star players. Oh yeah? Yeah. Apparently he's somebody, I don't even know.

Tyreek Hill. The whether that influenced their conduct is impossible to know, right? We're not in their heads. But all that said, the police union has defended its officers actions, claiming that Tyreek Hill was uncooperative throughout the interaction and they did what they had to do for their safety.

However, the department also said that it's opened an investigation into the incident and placed one of the officers on administrative leave. Or with that one appearing to be the most aggressive one who threatened to break the window, yanked Hill out of the car and screamed at him and forced him onto his knees. But now with all that said, I gotta pass the question off to you.

What are your thoughts here? Because again, like I said, depending on where you go, drastically different reactions to this news. And I will ask you to treat this situation like it is in a bubble. Because as I have made clear in the past, I am not a fan of Tyreek Hill. I'm not a big fan of guys who are guilty of

domestic assault and battery by strangulation of his then pregnant girlfriend, among other things. You can Google it. But yeah, just focusing on what happened over the weekend, what are your thoughts here? And then, easily one of the most requested stories today, we have conservatives, including some of the biggest names in the Republican Party, spreading debunked and what many have called racist claims that Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio are eating people's pets and wildlife in city parks. I mean, this shit has gone absolutely viral on X

where of course nothing's being done to stop it spread or debunk the false claims. Instead, we're seeing Elon Musk spreading it as well. So let's just break this down. So the first thing you need to know is that Springfield has seen a big influx of Haitian migrants since the pandemic. And that has brought about some tensions know is that Springfield has seen a big influx of Haitian migrants since the pandemic. And that has brought about some tensions in the city,

which has paved the way for the conspiracy being spread all over the internet right now. And what's been hard to pinpoint exactly how this started, it seems to have stemmed from a couple of posts on social media. With that, including this clip from a city commission meeting. They're in the park, grabbing up ducks by they neck

and cutting their head off and walking off with them. And eating them. But the key thing there is that the speaker in that video didn't appear to offer any evidence for his claims. Also similarly, another post that set this whole thing in motion was a fourth-hand account that appeared to come from a Facebook group where people post about local crime in Springfield.

And while the group was set to private yesterday, screenshots show someone posting in the group that their neighbor's daughter's friend lost her cat and found it hanging from a branch near a house, quote, where Haitians live. With the poster also claiming that the Haitians, quote, "'We're carving it up to eat.'" And adding that they heard that the same was happening

with dogs as well as ducks and geese in the nearby park, saying, quote, "'I was told that last bit by rangers and police.'" But those claims were then bolstered further by conservatives who posted false evidence online, and this including some of the biggest names in right-wing media. And while there were a number of these posts,

two in particular gained a lot of traction. The first being this video of a woman getting arrested in Ohio for killing and trying to eat a cat in front of her neighbors. And the second was a picture of a man holding what people claimed was a charred bird. But there, according to Snopes, the woman in the first video is literally an American citizen, and there's no evidence she's Haitian. Also, that video took place in Canton, Ohio, not Springfield. And as for the picture, Snopes found that it came from a Reddit thread about Columbus, Ohio that had been posted at least a month before these viral claims. With them adding, there is no evidence

that this individual had any connection to Haiti. And the outlet also going on to note that many other online claims providing evidence or secondhand accounts and have not been independently corroborated. But none of that has stopped so many people from spreading this all over social media, with many using it to vilify illegal immigrants.

And this includes the likes of big names like Jim Jordan and J.D. Vance, who tweeted, Months ago, I raised the issue of Haitian illegal immigrants draining social services and generally causing chaos all over Springfield, Ohio. Reports now show that people have had their pets abducted and eaten by people who shouldn't be in the country, whereas our borders are. But also, aside from the false animal claims, those claims that the Haitians are there in Springfield illegally, that's not true. As the official website for the city notes, Haitian immigrants in the city have come to the US legally under a humanitarian program.

And once they've arrived, they can apply for temporary protected status, a designation that allows them to stay in the country legally and obtain employment. And that status was actually given to Haitian immigrants in 2011. And since then, it's been renewed numerous times, including under Trump.

But despite that, we've seen many conservatives falsely blaming Biden and Harris for this whole made up situation while also trying to rally people around Trump. But despite that, we've seen many conservatives falsely blaming Biden and Harris for this whole made up situation while also trying to rally people around Trump. Like Ted Cruz, for example, who posted a meme of cats that said, "'Please vote for Trump so Haitian immigrants don't eat us.'" I mean, we even saw the Trump campaign

literally trying to use this to their advantage, sending out an email Monday claiming that the vice president was responsible for the unrest and urging people to vote for Trump, writing, "'It's all coming to your city if Kamala Harris is elected in November. It doesn't have to be this way. And then beyond all that,

there have also been a bunch of bizarre AI videos of Trump saving, cuddling, or kissing a variety of different cats, dogs, and ducks, as well as there being just a host of blatantly racist posts that are being promoted to the top of searches by X's algorithm. But now a massive update is that numerous officials in Springfield have debunked the various claims

about Haitian immigrants as totally false. But the Springfield Police Division issuing a statement saying, "'In response to recent rumors alleging criminal activity "'by the immigrant population in our city, "'we wish to clarify that there have been no credible reports "'or specific claims of pets being harmed, injured, "'or abused by individuals within the immigrant community.'"

With them going on to add, quote, "'There have been no verified instances "'of immigrants squatting or littering "'in front of people's homes or disrupting traffic.'" With that seeming to be in reference to a series of other claims that have been circulating online as well. Additionally, you had Parks Department officials

in Clark County where Springfield is located telling reporters that there is no evidence or reports of this happening in the parks. Right, and the statement from police and the parks officials are extra notable here because the person behind the Facebook post that helped set this all in motion said police and rangers had told them about those claims. And notably, those departments weren't alone.

The mayor of Springfield and a spokesperson for the city also debunked the claims as being unsubstantiated. But of course, even with Springfield officials coming out en masse to contradict all the lies, it still hasn't stopped a lot of conservatives from spreading them, with just so many people online still continuing to share the claims this morning.

And this including Vance himself, who even acknowledged in his post, it's possible, of course, that all of these rumors will turn out to be false. But even with that going on, to keep politicizing the legal migration and encouraging his followers to keep posting memes spreading false claims.

And so unsurprisingly, all of this has gotten a ton of backlash from people online. With many slamming conservatives for just willfully spreading a made-up narrative, plenty also accusing them of being racist and some just saying all of this is just so fucking stupid why did they think that this was like a thing that you could just repeat it's crazy okay oh my god it is crazy these people are these people are out of their goddamn minds dude if you see one crazy person eating a cat okay and that person happens to be from a minority background okay like a minority ethnic background

and your immediate assumption is every single person from said background does this you are just a racist dog it's like the most basic dude what are we doing this is like kindergarten it's crazy it's straight up like i i don't i don't understand how we've like decided not as as americans we're like nah actually i going to be doing level one racism. It's like the most basic thing. There are very few things that you can be certain of in life. But you can always be sure the sun will rise each morning. You can bet your bottom dollar that you'll always need air to breathe and water to drink. And, of course, you can rest assured that with Public Mobile's 5G subscription phone plans, you'll pay the same thing every month.

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And of course, like with everything, I'd love to know your thoughts on this. And then I gotta say, if there is a surefire way to wake up feeling fresh after a night of drinking, it's with pre-alcohol. And the fantastic sponsor of today's show, Z-Biotics, is your first drink of the night

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And then, you know, there's just a lot of reasons that I think that magic mushrooms should be legalized and regulated. And one of them is connected to why I'm telling you today, do not buy products marketed as magic mushrooms that are at vape or smoke shops. Because those items are completely unregulated and they don't contain the active ingredients

that you likely think they would and they can even make you super sick or kill you. And I'm not exaggerating when I'm saying that, right? This is not the mushroom version of Reefer Madness. That is something that literally happened with a popular mushroom edible called Diamond Shrooms, which is sold in the form of chocolate bars, gummies, and infused cones.

With a seeing earlier this summer, the company that makes the candies, Profit Premium Blends, issued a sweeping recall of all of its products when numerous people got ill after eating them. With the reported symptoms including seizures and voluntary muscle contractions and loss of consciousness among other things. And according to the most recent update from the FDA

as of August 30th, nearly 160 illnesses from these products have been reported in 32 states as well as two potentially associated deaths. With more than one in every three of the people who fell ill requiring hospitalization. Now as far as what caused the sickness, Profit Premium Blend said that it was potentially due to a higher amount of musamol,

which is a chemical found in the Amanita mushroom species. Right, and for some important context here, the mushroom-based products that you see sold legally at smoke shops, they don't actually contain psilocybin, which you know is the active ingredient that makes magic mushrooms so magical. And that, you know, is because psilocybin is a federally controlled substance

illegal in most of the US. So there are some exceptions for states and cities that have legalized or at least decriminalized it. But even in those places, you can't just sell it at random smoke shops. So those mushroom infused products that can actually be sold commercially at a large scale contain a variety of different chemicals

and derivatives from other mushrooms, like Amanita, which is legal and has become increasingly popular. And while yes, that species is psychoactive, it is very different from psilocybin mushrooms. For example, one expert explaining that it creates a quote, "'Dissociative dreamlike state with effects closer to that of ketamine'

and adding that ingesting the mushrooms at high doses can be incredibly unpleasant and disturbing." And so going into it, people who buy these products won't have the experience they might expect or get the mental health benefits that many experts say can come from psilocybin. But then also beyond that, these products are super concerning because they also contain a number of other sketchy

ingredients. In fact, an FDA investigation into the illnesses caused by diamond shrooms found that the products contained a wide array of compounds, including very notably illegal controlled substances like psilocin, which is a hallucinogen found alongside psilocybin in mushrooms, as well as a prescription drug meant to treat nerve pain and seizures that can cause dizziness or drowsiness. And y'all, that is in addition to a number of other compounds that weren't listed among the ingredients in Diamond Shrooms, with the FDA going on to imply that those substances may have played a role in the illnesses,

which is a big deal, because among other things, it directly contradicts Profit Premium Blends' assertion that this may have been caused by high concentrations of Musamol, and in fact, writing that the ingredient wasn't even found in all products and cannot explain all the symptoms reported by ill patients. But also another big thing is that while the FDA released

a list of around 2,300 shops that had previously sold Diamonds Room's products, you know, they also acknowledged that the candies may still be getting sold in other stores. So noting that it will update the list as more stores are identified and urging people to report any retailers still selling the edibles. And you know, that is an important aspect of this news because it does highlight the fundamental issue with all of this. And that's that these products are

essentially totally unregulated. Hell, I mean, there are literally aren't age verification requirements for products like Diamond Shroom. So it's not surprising that we've seen reports that multiple children were hospitalized in the Diamond Shroom's poisoning. I mean, there's no process in place right now for these products to be reviewed by any regulatory authority, including the FDA. And that's because the agency actually has limited power to regulate food and dietary supplements. They can't even approve dietary supplements. They just address unsafe products through recalls or taking them off the market. So food companies don't have to regularly tell the FDA when they introduce new novel ingredients. They can just get a panel of supposed experts to approve the new ingredient as safe. But even that part can

be skipped, right? FDA guidance documents say that just one single expert can certify an ingredient as safe in many cases. And in addition to that, there's also a major loophole in federal law for companies that want to add new ingredients. You see, current FDA guidelines, they were designed so that the agency would perform a basic review of any new ingredients, but that provided exceptions for when a new ingredient had already been present in food. So to get around that, consultants for dietary supplement makers, they just tell these companies, hey, had already been present in food. So to get around that, consultants for dietary supplement makers, they just tell these companies, hey, just put an ingredient in food for six months or so,

and then argue it's generally safe. You know, as long as it is actually safe and doesn't result in people getting fucking sick or dying. So as a result, companies can introduce new ingredients with little evidence of how safe they actually are. There's barely actually anything to disincentivize them from doing so because the FDA has so few mechanisms to actually crack down on these companies

beyond just sending them a warning letter. With one expert even explaining, now the mindset is do this, get caught, get a letter. Make as much money as we can and then do something else. And it appears that's exactly what Profit Premium Blends has done. This company literally first started out as an e-cigarette business that grew rapidly

by filling the void left by other vape companies that scaled back operations in 2019 during the outbreak of lung injuries and deaths. And then once that stopped working for them because of new regulations and crackdowns at all levels of the government, the company just switched to weed vapes and mushroom candies. And unfortunately, unless we see drastic change

regarding the government and regulations, there's no reason to think that this whole industry is just gonna keep growing and more and more people are gonna get hurt along the way. But then shifting gears, we gotta talk about this news about how two people in the US ran an international white supremacist terror group without ever having to actually leave their home.

All they reportedly needed was their cell phones, an internet connection, and a little app called Telegram. Or at least, that's according to charges now being brought against a woman in California and a man in Idaho who are alleged to be the leaders of the so-called Terrorgram Collective. You see, the two of them allegedly use Telegram, right, the popular messaging platform,

to share videos and messages celebrating violence against racial and ethnic minorities, the LGBTQ community, and government officials. But then beyond that, they also encourage users to commit attacks and even provided them with instructions and guidance on how to carry them out. Because according to the indictment,

they believe that violence and terrorism are necessary to start a race war, bring about the government's collapse, and create a quote, white ethnostate. And also with that, the DOJ laid out three main types of attacks the group's leaders were trying to egg on. First, you had quote, bias-motivated attacks against those deemed by Terragram to be enemies of the white race.

And according to Assistant Attorney General Kristen Clark, that meant soliciting others to engage in hate crimes and terrorist attacks against black, immigrant, LGBT, and Jewish people. And second, you had attacks on government infrastructure such as official buildings and energy facilities, which they apparently also hoped would ignite a race war as well as just accelerate the collapse of government and society. And then finally, you had attacks on what they called high-value targets whose murders they hoped would create even more chaos and further accelerate the government's downfall. And there, they actually provided a list that included the

names, addresses, and photographs of the targets and told followers that assassinating them in the name of Terragram would be their path to sainthood. And as far as who was on that list, it allegedly included federal, state, and local officials as well as leaders of private companies and non-government organizations,

many of whom were targeted because of race, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, or gender identity. Like for example, among the people on the list was a quote, anti-white, anti-gun Jewish senator. Also, you need to understand this wasn't just talk, right? Because you have Matthew Olson,

the DOJ's assistant attorney general for national security saying, these are not mere words. Terrogram users have carried out or planned attacks after being guided by Terrogram publications and instructional videos. And to that point, the department actually identified three individuals who were allegedly inspired or guided by the Tergram Collective's leaders

or other members. Like in the US, for example, there was a New Jersey guy who plotted to sabotage energy stations and was arrested on his way to the airport to fight for a neo-Nazi Russian unit in Ukraine. There was also that teenager who killed two people outside of a gay bar in Slovakia, with him actually directly thanking Terragram

for inspiring him in his manifesto. And according to the Slovakian authorities, he had contact with the Collective's leaders in the year leading according to the Slovakian authorities, he had contact with the collective's leaders in the year leading up to the attack. In fact, about three months beforehand, one of them told the attacker that she would narrate the attacker's books if he murdered people in the name of Terrogram.

And then, actually just last month, someone live-streamed himself stabbing five people near a mosque in Turkey. And with that taking place shortly after he posted on Terrogram saying, "'Come see how much humans I can cleanse.'" Right, and so with all of that, the two leaders were reportedly arrested on Friday and prosecutors have brought every charge they can

against them. And if they got convicted on all charges, they each face a maximum penalty of 220 years in prison. With Attorney General Merrick Garland saying, today's arrests are a warning to committing hate-fueled crimes in the darkest corners of the internet will not hide you and soliciting terrorist attacks from behind a screen will not protect you. But the reality here is that it remains to be seen whether new people will just take their places. And I don't just mean that hypothetically, right? Notably, the two people being charged today, they actually only took over Telegram in 2022

after the previous leader was arrested and charged with terrorism offenses. Also with this, of course, there's still an open debate about what's the best way to regulate apps like Telegram. Right, and that debate notably happening as the company's CEO was arrested last month in Paris, with him being accused by French authorities of failing to deal with child pornography,

drug trafficking, and illicit transactions on the app. But this of course, as he and his supporters say that he should be released. But for now, we'll have to wait to see what happens. And of course, I'll pass the question off to you. What are your thoughts with this mess? And then, sadly, receiving notifications about another big company being affected by a data breach

and your personal information being amongst the leaked data, it's seemingly become the norm. And with as little as a phone number, an old address, a name, complete strangers can buy records containing an alarming amount of your sensitive information. So wouldn't it be great if your personal data was automatically scrubbed off the market by someone that you trust?

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And then let's talk about 9-11 and justice. Because when you talk about justice, what does it look like? And if you can't get it, do you settle for the next best thing? Because those are the questions at the heart of the debate over what to do with the five men charged in connection to the attacks that took place in America on September 11th, 2001.

With that whole debate being reignited this year when we had the huge news that three of those men reached plea deals with the US government to avoid the death penalty. And immediately we saw mixed reactions from the public, from politicians, and of course, from the families of the victims. But the dominant reaction, the dominant feeling, it was anger. And with that, barely a day had passed before the deal was revoked. We had people saying, why should these men, these fucking monsters, why should they get a deal? Well,

the question behind that question is, why, after more than 20 years of having these guys in custody, is that the best we can do? So to try to answer that, we need to go back to the beginning, right? September 11th, 2001. That was when 19 men hijacked four commercial passenger planes in the U.S. With two planes being flown into the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center in New York City, the third plane crashing into the Pentagon, and the fourth plane, which was actually thought to be meant for the White House, ending up in a field in rural Pennsylvania, thanks to the heroic actions of passengers and crew on board. And while that day changed the world in a whole lot of ways,

one thing no one was really expecting was that we would find and detain the people responsible and never get a conviction. I mean, within months of the attacks, George W. Bush issued an order regarding the detention, treatment, and trial of certain non-citizens in the war against terrorism. With that order basically saying that 9-11 suspects and other foreign terrorists wouldn't be tried in civilian courts. They would be tried in what are called the military commissions at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. And with that saying that it wouldn't be practicable to apply, quote,

the principles of law and the rules of evidence generally recognized in the trial of criminal cases in the United States district courts. And from the beginning, this idea that when it came to getting justice for the people behind 9-11, the U.S. government wouldn't have to play by the normal rules, it's a big part of the reason why we've never really gotten it. 780 prisoners have passed through Guantanamo since 2002, with only 18 ever being charged with a crime. And of the eight people who have been convicted, four of them got overturned and two are still in the process of appeal. And in any case, none of those convictions were directly in connection to 9-11. In fact, only one person has ever been convicted in connection to the September 11th attacks. And

that wasn't someone tried in the military commissions. It was a French man who was convicted in a federal court in 2006 for a small part that he played in the plot. With notably there, the jury rejecting the death penalty and handing him a life sentence. And the five men still facing charges for their alleged roles in 9-11 have all been detained in Guantanamo since 2006. So importantly, they were picked up a few years earlier with them spending a few years in a secret CIA prison network, right? They got the first guy in 2002 in Pakistan.

He's accused of organizing the 9-11 cell based out of Germany including researching flight schools in the US and wiring money to some of the 19 hijackers. Also last year, a military medical panel diagnosed him as having PTSD and psychosis, which his lawyers blamed on his torture by the CIA. But in fact, the board finding him mentally unfit to stand trial. And a month later, the judge agreeing that the prisoner was too psychologically damaged to help defend himself. But the charges, they remain against him in the event that he's ever deemed able to assist

in his own defense. And as far as the other four guys, they're being tried together. Or rather, they will be if there is ever a trial. Because they were all captured in Pakistan way back in 2003. And the one with the fewest charges against him, he's accused of helping some of the hijackers with finances and travel arrangements. With also their Senate investigation indicating that he was likely tortured by the CIA with an enhanced interrogation technique known as rectal feeding, which is something that medical experts have now consistently said is just a form of rape or sexual assault.

And according to lawyers, he frequently waives his right to be in court because he finds it painful to sit. Next, you have the guy accused of training some of the hijackers in hand-to-hand fighting, researching flights and timetables, and testing the ability of a passenger to sneak a knife on board a plane. Then you have the guy accused of transferring money from the UAE to some of the hijackers in the US. His lawyer saying based on what they know about his abuse in CIA custody, he's the basis for one of the characters in the movie Zero Dark Thirty, right? One who was beaten, waterboarded, and hung by his wrists. And then finally, you have the alleged mastermind behind 9-11, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

He's also known as KSM, and he's the guy who allegedly proposed the plan for 9-11 to Osama bin Laden in 1996. And he's believed to have overseen the plan's execution, including by training some hijackers in Afghanistan and Pakistan, with him reportedly being waterboarded 183 times. And notably, when he and others were taken to Guantanamo,

the cases against them couldn't even get off the ground before they had their first hiccup, because in 2006, the Supreme Court rejected Bush's plans to put them on trial before military commissions, with one of the big issues there being that Bush had established them without congressional authorization. So to get around that, that same year, Congress passed the Military Commissions Act, right?

And that legislation officially broadened the definition of enemy combatants beyond the traditional definition used in wartime. So with that, it stripped Guantanamo detainees of a habeas right to challenge their detention in court. And actually, that's just one of the ways the rules of the military commissions violate our traditional understanding of due process.

With another big one being that unlike in normal courts, what's known as hearsay evidence has generally been understood to be admissible. And so that means an FBI agent, for example, could take the stand and talk about statements he collected years ago through an interpreter from unidentified people in a foreign country. And those secondhand statements would be considered evidence.

And those original witnesses, they don't have to be called in or take an oath or answer any questions because the agents who spoke with them wouldn't even know how to find them, right? And then there's the issue of classification, with the defense not allowed to see all the evidence against them because a lot of it's confidential. And in fact, besides documents, the identities of a large number of potential witnesses, such as people who worked in black sites, are actually classified. So, you

know, the defense, they can't call them because they don't know who they are. And finally, the big one, the torture question. Statements derived from torture or cruel, inhumane, or degrading treatment can't be used in federal court. But in the military commissions at Guantanamo, it's been an ongoing debate. And, you know, I'll get to more of that in a second. But the point is, all that debate, discussion, and most importantly, litigation around these issues, they've kept this case from going anywhere. I mean, the suspects were first charged in the military commissions in 2008 with prosecutors seeking the death penalty. But then when Obama came to office, he suspended the case and announced that KSM and the others would be tried in a civilian court in

Manhattan with prosecutors still seeking the death penalty. Though of course, this sparked outrage among some politicians as well, as a lot of the 9-11 victims' family members. So with that, lawmakers passed restrictions prohibiting the transfer of terror detainees to the US. Then all of that leading to the administration announcing that it'd be handing the case back to the military in 2011.

But notably, this came after Obama signed updated legislation to reform the military commissions, with one of the key changes being to explicitly ban statements obtained through torture or through cruel, inhumane, or degrading treatment as evidence. Although it left the door open for the admission of some coerced statements and hearsay evidence.

And so with that, critics said that the commission still offered a second-class system of justice designed to obtain quick convictions. But of course, we're talking about the state, so you know it didn't work out at all. With all those issues continuing to be litigated and the debate about torture, it's just a ball. While it became clear that statements obtained under torture at CIA black sites were no good, what about statements given later? Because you see, in 2007, an FBI clean team

questioned the suspects over several months without torturing them. But there, the defense claims that these interrogations were still tainted by torture. Them saying that their clients had been conditioned by that point to provide answers that would please their interrogators. So as of now, it's still something being dealt with. And then, I mean, some of the stuff that's caused delays, it's almost comical. In 2013, for example, it was just a five minute phone call

that ended up helping set the case back at least a year. Because what happened there was that one of the suspects asked his attorneys to pass along a message to his brother in Yemen. And there, US officials feared that it was actually a coded communication to Al-Qaeda operatives. And then in 2019, hearings were delayed after the judge at the time had to be flown back to the U.S. for an urgent eye surgery. Also, speaking of the judges, we just keep getting new ones. The first one lasted until 2018. That's

when he retired and named his successor. But then that guy stepped aside after only nine months. But then the next guy making it less than a year before retiring. And then the guy after him, he quit after just two weeks. And so they replaced him with someone named Judge Matthew McCall, but he'd been a judge for less than two years at the time, which was against the rules. So someone else then stepped in temporarily,

and then another guy came in for a bit. And then when Judge McCall had two years experience under his belt, he came back. But of course, less than two years later, he also announced his retirement. Though then this year, he said he'll delay his retirement at least through the end of 2024. And of course, with that, every personnel change comes with its own little delays and those add up.

And actually with that, the last big thing is that our own intelligence agencies actually may be intentionally holding the process up. Like in 2014, for example, it came out that the FBI have tried to recruit a member of the defendant's legal team as a confidential informant. And then the CIA has also faced allegations like cutting off audio and video feed at a hearing,

hiding microphones in the prison, and sending an interpreter to spy on the defense. With the suspicion there being that the agency is trying to undermine the process and keep the full extent of what happened to those men in the black sites from becoming public. So ultimately with all of that, you have many legal experts agreeing

that a verdict in any potential future trial wouldn't survive appeal. And so that is why we have this discussion about plea deals. The idea is that if the government took the death penalty off the table, maybe the 9-11 defendants would plead guilty and give up their right to appeal. So then all of this could be over. And in fact, a group called September 11 Families for Peaceful Tomorrows, which was actually founded in opposition to the US bombing campaign in Afghanistan after the September 11th attacks, they started pushing for that as far back as 2017. But of course,

for a lot of people, that just sounds wrong. And so in 2022, when there started being rumblings that prosecutors were exploring plea deals, it didn't go down well. And when a little over a year later, after progress on a deal had been made, and it resulted in headlines like accused 9-11 architect could avoid US death penalty under plea deal proposal came out, shit hit the fan. I mean, you had some 9-11 families completely outraged. And in fact, more than 2000 victim family members wrote an open letter to Biden protesting the plea deal. And all of that leading to Biden himself rejecting the plea deal on the table.

But of course, less than a year later, I mean, this year, a new deal for three of the five defendants was reached. With it coming during the 51st round of pretrial hearings in the case in surraignment in 2012. And we immediately saw this same cycle play out. One woman whose husband and brother-in-law were killed at the World Trade Center

telling the New York Times, I really did want the death penalty. They did kill 3,000 Americans and people are still dying from post 9-11 cancer. But then on the flip side, a member of September 11 Families for Peaceful Tomorrows whose sister was killed on 9-11 told the Washington Post, I would have liked a trial of men who hadn't been tortured, but we got hands at a really poor opportunity for justice and this is a way to verdicts and finality. That's what I consider this. And all of this is, of course, politics are at play as well. With, for example, Mitch McConnell condemning the move as, quote, a revolting abdication of the government's responsibility

to defend America and provide justice. J.D. Vance slamming the deals at a rally saying, we need a president who kills terrorists, not negotiates with them. And ultimately, whether it was due to political pressure or not, that deal has been taken off the table. And so we're left in the same situation, right? And with that, according to Scott Rome, director of the DC office of the Center for Victims of Torture, the 9-11 case is not going to trial in the military commissions. It is not remotely close to that and it never will be.

So for anyone who objects to resolving the case with a plea agreement, I'd ask them, what's the alternative? And you know, if that's true, the question we started this with, it remains. Whether you believe in the death penalty or not, these men should be tried in a court of law. But what we've seen is that the US government has fucked up so many times that that might never happen now. So from a legal standpoint,

do you then settle for the next best option? Especially if it's being said that it is the only option left. And yeah, I'd really love to know your thoughts wherever you land on this. But that is the end of today's show. I love yo faces, and I'll see you right back here tomorrow.