The Philip DeFranco Show - What Everyone Got Wrong About Charlie Kirk Bullet Report

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Starting point is 00:01:00 Was Candace Owens really just vindicated on the Charlie Kirk assassination? That's what you have many asking after our Daily Mail headlines that the bullet that killed Kirk did not match the rifle tied to suspect Tyler Robinson. And that went everywhere. TMZ ran the same framing. Owens declared victory. But the problem is the headline is misleading. The ATF report actually said that the bullet couldn't be identified as matching,

Starting point is 00:01:20 which is very different from saying that it didn't match. While the conspiracy machine, you know, it's running full speed. The actual case, it's still very early on with the FBI conducting its own announcement. that isn't even finished yet. Of course, you have many concerns and doubts there because of who is leading the FBI now. But where I want to start is with what actually happened. Here's what's real.

Starting point is 00:01:36 Robinson's defense team filed a motion to delay a hearing set for May so they could keep reviewing evidence, with NBC obtaining that filing. And in it, the defense cited a summary report from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, saying that the ATF was, quote, unable to identify the bullet recovered at autopsy to the rifle allegedly tied to Robinson.

Starting point is 00:01:51 In the AP, describing the finding more simply, saying inconclusive. In the AP also explain why that is not unusual. Forensic ballistic. analysis depends heavily on the size and condition of the bullet fragments. Experts look for microscopic markings left on a bullet as it passes through the barrel, markings that are unique to each firearm. And if the fragments are too small or they're too damaged, they can't make a definitive match.

Starting point is 00:02:10 That does not mean that the gun did not fire that bullet. It means that the evidence was not sufficient to confirm that it did. And Robinson's team hasn't even actually been able to review the full case file associated with the ATF report yet. And again, that's as the FBI is conducting its own separate bullet analysis that hasn't been completed. Which brings us to the specifics of the headlines versus the reality. With the Daily Mail, they ran the headline,

Starting point is 00:02:28 bullet used to kill Charlie Kirk did not match rifle allegedly used by suspect. But then, if you even read the first sentence of their own article, it says that the bullet may not match, which is already a lot less definitive than the headline. And again, they weren't alone. TMZ ran a similar framing and you had Candace Owens running with it posting, where are all my neocons who have been overwhelmed

Starting point is 00:02:46 by the non-existent evidence against Tyler Robinson? You should all be ashamed of yourselves. Hope the money was worth your soul. With that post and others like it, spreading everywhere, people reading the headlines, skipping the article and treating it as proof, hey, there's no case against Robinson. But as people who have been pushing back,

Starting point is 00:02:59 it pointed out, the ATF said that it was unable to identify the bullet, and that's quite different than being able to identify it as a non-match. See what others, accusing the Daily Mail of running clickbait trash saying they're purely leaning into this because they know there are a bunch of rabid conspiracy theorists who will not take the time to understand this. And of course, that says that the bullet analysis

Starting point is 00:03:16 isn't the only evidence in this case. It's not even close. Prosecutors say that DNA consistent with Robinson's was found on the rifle, though Robinson's defense pushed back on that, claiming that multiple people's DNA was found and more analysis is needed. Also on top of that, defense attorneys say that they just received a hard drive containing a large volume of audio, video, and data files that still need to be a review, which is part of why they're asking for the delay. But you also have prosecutors insisting that they have enough evidence to go to trial regardless of what the ATF bullet analysis shows.

Starting point is 00:03:39 Robinson actually hasn't even entered a plea yet. This case is still in the very, very early stages. But I also then have to add that the conspiracy fuel didn't just stop with a bullet report. Where the sheriff of Washington County, Utah, that the county where Robinson was arrested abruptly resigned from his job on Friday after a 30-year career in law enforcement. And you know, the Salt Lake City Tribune reporting that the resignation came, quote, after the county received complaints from individuals who were concerned with operations of the sheriff's office. Now, we don't know the details of those complaints, but you had Candace Owens immediately connecting it to the Kirk case. My instinct is that there's going to be some corruption. He's gotten involved in something and he has to quietly resign.

Starting point is 00:04:12 Like in the middle of an election, they're usually digging up dirt on you. They may have found something. I am wondering if this might have something to do with Tyler Robinson and the Charlie Kirk case. I am, you know, I don't know for certain, but I'm interested. Frank Candace wasn't alone. You also had Marjorie Taylor Green going further, writing. The ATF could not match the bullet to Tyler Robinson's gun, and when the news breaks, the sheriff resigns. But then also, looking at the timeline, it doesn't actually appear to support that connection. Reports say that the sheriff resigned on Friday and the bullet reporting came out yesterday.

Starting point is 00:04:41 So the two events, they overlap in the news cycle, but there's no established link between them. And all of this, it's happening as Robinson's due in court in just over two weeks for a hearing about whether cameras will be allowed into the courtroom. He still hasn't entered a plea. The FBI's bullet analysis isn't done. The defense is asking for more time with the evidence, and prosecutors say, you know, they're ready for trial. But also with that, understand, this is probably going to be a long case. And that is, you know, the gap between what the evidence actually shows and what headlines and social media are telling people, it shows that this is a recurring problem throughout at all. And understand, I say that as someone that has a number of questions about what went down that day.

Starting point is 00:05:09 But at least on this specific situation, it looks like another case study and how misinformation works in real time. By the time that the AP and NBC published the actual nuanced reporting, you had hundreds of thousands people already seeing a headline, skipping the article, and forming an opinion that's not supported by the facts. And like with any situation, the accused deserves a fair trial, the victim. and their families, they deserve a real investigation, and the public deserves reporting that tells them what the evidence actually says, not what gets them the most clicks. So then also, actually, I want to say, you know, all of this,

Starting point is 00:05:35 it's going down as we got a final verdict on another high-profile legal battle. Because the Supreme Court just made it a lot easier for parents to force their gay and transgender children into dangerous and widely discredited conversion therapies. But also, this broad decision, it goes beyond just controversial conversion therapies. It has sweeping implications for the ability of states to regulate their own medical care and protect their residents against harmful medical practices.

Starting point is 00:05:54 Because specifically, the case in question here centers around a law that Colorado enacted in 2019 that banned physicians and mental health professionals from trying to change a sexual orientation or gender identity of minors. But also, Colorado's not alone there. Almost half of all states of banned conversion therapy for minors are implemented some kind of restrictions over the last decade as more and more evidence emerged that the practice was harmful. Or with major medical groups also discrediting the practices at increasing number of studies linked it to depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, and higher rates of suicide among gay and transgender people. So under Colorado's law, practitioners were subject to a $5,000 fine for each of the number.

Starting point is 00:06:24 violation and a suspension or loss of a counseling license. Though there I'll say a very big thing is that Colorado officials say that no one's actually ever been disciplined. But back in 2022, an evangelical Christian therapist by the name of Kaylee Child sued arguing that the law violated her First Amendment rights by preventing her from offering voluntary faith-based counseling for religious minors who were questioning their sexual orientation or dealing with gender dysphoria. And in her court filings, Childs argued that she wasn't trying to cure patients or change their sexual orientation. She said that she just wanted to help patients with their own efforts to live consistently with their

Starting point is 00:06:54 Faults, she said, would sometimes include seeking to reduce or eliminate unwanted sexual attractions. She also claimed that the law made it hard for parents to find therapists who would discuss gender identity with kids unless the counseling directly affirms transition. Then on the other side, you would Colorado defending the law, arguing that it still allows for broad conversations about gender identity and sexual orientation within the context of religious guidance. Noting that the law literally exempts religious ministries entirely in claims that the measure is only meant to block therapies that try to convert LGBTQ plus minors to heterosexuality or traditional gender norms. With a state attorney general arguing that the law doesn't violate free speech protections because therapy is a form of health care, which makes it different from other kinds of speech. They're noting that states have long had the power to regulate medical treatments carried out through speech in order to protect patients from substandard care. And very notably here, the state AG also warned that if the Supreme Court ruled against Colorado, it would undermine the ability of all states to protect their residents from bad medical practices and make it harder for people to sue providers when they give bad advice. And what you saw is that argument was upheld by two separate courts with the US Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit ruling that talk therapy isn't

Starting point is 00:07:53 a form of pure speech, but rather a medical treatment that can be regulated by the state. And that decision appeared to align with past precedent set by the Supreme Court, which has allowed certain restrictions that govern a person's conduct, even if those restrictions unintentionally but up against free speech. Today, what you had was the Supreme Court ruling that that was not the case when it came to Colorado's law, with the justices striking down the lower court's decision and ruling in favor of Childs. And I will say a very big thing is that this was not a typical conservative versus liberal split. The decision was eight to one. With Justice Neal Gorsuch arguing in the majority opinion that Colorado may regard its policy,

Starting point is 00:08:23 is essential to public health and safety, but the law ultimately censor speech in violation of the First Amendment. And that was also echoed by some of the liberal justices as well, with Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor, filing a concurring opinion, arguing that the law regulates viewpoints on one side of the debate over conversion therapy for minors, but not the other. But then on the other side, you had Justice Katanji Brown Jackson, the sole dissenter, arguing that this ruling could have a catastrophic impact on health care across the nation if states cannot regulate some kinds of speech by licensed professionals, writing. This decision might make speech-only therapies and other medical treatments involving practitioner's speech effectively unregulatable. And adding that it opens a dangerous can of worms that threatens to impair states' ability to regulate the provision of medical care in any respect and ultimately risks grave harm to Americans' health and well-being. Right, so arguing that not only does this decision undermine the conversion therapy bans and restrictions that are currently in place in almost half of all states, but it could also have an untold impact on the ability of all state governments to regulate any kind of medical care that poses a threat to all Americans.

Starting point is 00:09:20 And so while this could be massively consequential, for now, we're going to have to wait to see how sweeping the long-term impacts are going to be. And then there's more we've got to dive into in just a minute. But first, let me thank a sponsor and say, you know, if your day is bouncing between meetings, the gym, and everything else, figuring out what to eat, it usually becomes a last-minute decision and not always a great one. And that's where today's sponsor Factor comes in. Factor is fully prepared food that's ready when you are. And more importantly, it's actually good. They deliver chef-made dietitian-approved meals that show up ready to go. You just heat it up, eat and keep moving.

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Starting point is 00:10:14 Mediterranean, and just other things that support your goals. And meals arrive fresh, you're frozen, and you're eating at about two minutes. It's basically a quick reset in the middle of a busy day. So hey, just scan that QR code or go to factormeals.com slash DeFranco 50 off and use code DeFranco 50 off to get 50% off and free breakfast for a year. But then diving right back into the news, Trump is telling US allies to get their own oil as he's thinking about wiping his hands clean of this war

Starting point is 00:10:37 and just leaving Iran and control the straight-of-hor moves. And that's even though he has repeatedly claimed that a deal to end this war and reopen the street is close, while he's also then threatened to obliterate civilian infrastructure and what experts say would be a war crime. And he's refused to rule out ground operations that would risk American lives and might not even work. And all of this is coming as, you know,

Starting point is 00:10:53 whatever he does moving forward, thousands have been killed, millions have been displaced, and they're at risk of hunger and being pushed into poverty. And the Americans that he supposedly serves, they're paying more at the pump than in years. But let's start with the situation between the U.S. and its traditional European allies. Right, Spain's probably been the continent's most vocal opponent of the war, denying the U.S. use of military bases in its territory from the very beginning.

Starting point is 00:11:11 But also, the U.K. and France declined to support what they would consider offensive military operations. And then everyone's pretty much flat out refused Trump's call for them to escort commercial ships through the Strait of Hormuz while the conflict's ongoing. And again, despite the fact that he started this war without consulting them, and he's previously vowed to take their territory among other threats and insults, he has repeatedly complained about a lack of support from American allies in the war, even as he has repeatedly insisted that he doesn't actually need it. And that strategy has apparently not been working, with allies only making it clearer and clearer that they do not see this as their war. Spain, for example, they went even further this week, closing their airspace to American

Starting point is 00:11:45 aircraft involved in the war. There are also reports that Italy restricted the use of a base in Sicily by American planes and Trump claimed on social media this morning that France, quote, wouldn't let planes headed to Israel loaded up with the military supplies fly over French territory, with them saying in a separate post, all of those countries that can't get jet fuel because of the Strait of Hormuz, which refused to get involved in the decapitation of Iran, I have a suggestion for you. Number one, buy from the US, we have plenty, and number two, build up some delayed courage, go to the straight and just take it. You'll have to start learning how to fight for yourself. the USA won't be there to help you anymore, just like you weren't there for us.

Starting point is 00:12:18 Iran has been essentially decimated. And he also had Defense Secretary Hegset echoing Trump's words in a Pentagon press briefing this morning, which by the way was also the first one in almost two weeks. A lot has been shown to the world about what our allies would be willing to do for the United States of America when we undertake an effort of this scope on behalf of the free world. These are missiles that don't even range the United States of America. They range allies and others. And yet when we ask for additional assistance,

Starting point is 00:12:44 or simple access-facing overflight. We get questions or roadblocks or hesitations. And the president's pointing out, you don't have much of an alliance if you have countries that are not willing to stand with you and you need them. But then, when asked about Russia, which is believed to be providing Iran intelligence

Starting point is 00:13:00 to target US forces and may soon even start sending weapons to the country as well as China, which has also been quietly supporting Iran in some ways, he had not a single word of criticism. As far as Russia and China, we know exactly what they're doing, what they are or are not doing. We don't have to air publicly what all of that is,

Starting point is 00:13:17 but where necessary, we're addressing it, we're mitigating it, or we're confronting it. Right, and with all that, in addition to Heg said, having previously said that Iran can't hit the United States, even though one of the stories they fed to the American public is that we were at an imminent risk. Heg said he really just gave a lot of vague answers, arguing that it was just necessary to protect the mission.

Starting point is 00:13:35 Don't tell your enemy what you're willing to do or not do. And don't tell your enemy when you're willing to stop. And with that, he wouldn't refuse to rule out boots on the ground, and he repeated his stance that the choice to end this war is Trump's alone. Though, I will say, he also claimed that the upcoming days will be decisive and argue that the U.S. was closer than ever before to winning, even though Trump declared more than a week ago that the war had already been won.

Starting point is 00:13:54 And I know that we've joked about it, but according to Axios, Trump has suggested that the war was about to end at least 12 times already. But the most recently suggesting that that was the case, as he insisted that the U.S. is negotiating successfully with Iran's leaders, who he says are part of a new and more reasonable regime, even though, one, they say that they're not negotiating with the U.S., and two, even if they are, they're part of the same regime that Trump claims to have to have destroyed. But the new supreme leader is the son of the last one and is believed be even more hardline. And the guy Trump's claim that the U.S. is dealing with is a former revolutionary guard

Starting point is 00:14:20 commander who's been serving as Speaker of Parliament since 2020. But with all that, you would, Hexeth insisting that negotiations between the U.S. and Iran are very real and gaining strength and repeating Trump's claim that the regime change has been accomplished. President Trump doesn't bluff and he does not back down. This new regime, because regime change has occurred, should be wiser than the last. President Trump will make a deal he is willing. If Iran is not willing, then the United States War Department will continue with even more intensity. And with that, the military has reportedly begun flying B-52 bomber missions over land for the first time,

Starting point is 00:14:54 which is a sign that Iran's air defenses have been significantly degraded. And so the military is now reportedly focused on destroying supply chains that feed Iran's missile, drone, and naval ship building facilities. With the aim being to prevent the country from being able to replace munitions that have been destroyed in thousands of American attacks up till now. But also, despite all that, Iranian strikes have kept up across the region with the UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait, all among the countries responding to drone and missile attacks in the past day. One attack that made it through hit a massive oil tanker belonging to Kuwait.

Starting point is 00:15:18 It was anchored off the coast of Dubai and it just reinforced Iran's stranglehold over the street. And the whole situation might be getting more complicated with the Houthis in Yemen now having joined the war. Because they controlled territory along key Red Sea shipping routes and they previously targeted vessels there. And that could potentially be another way for Iran to put pressure on the global economy. And while Trump's threatened to resolve the situation in some way with ground operations or strikes on power plants and even desalination facilities, there's no guarantee that any of those options would work. And also it feels like it just keeps getting overlooked. Regarding attacks on civilian infrastructure,

Starting point is 00:15:45 you're talking about a possible war crime. The potential humanitarian fallout could be massive. Although there's another option that Trump's considering, which is just following through on his threat to just abandon this whole project and leave it to the Allies. And actually, the Wall Street Journal saying today that he's told aides that he's willing to end the war even if the Strait of Hormuz remains largely closed.

Starting point is 00:16:02 And that, apparently coming after they told him that a mission to open the strait would push the conflict beyond his timeline of four to six weeks. But with that, according to an Iran expert at the brook, At the UK's institution, walking away now, it would be unbelievably irresponsible with their arguing. The US and Israel started the war together and can't walk away from the fallout. Energy markets are inherently global and there is no possibility of insulating the United States from the economic damage that is already occurring and it will become exponentially worse if the closure of the street continues. And the thing is, she's right, even though the US isn't dependent on oil exports from the Middle East, it's not immune.

Starting point is 00:16:32 Global oil prices have been hanging out around $114 a barrel up from around $72 before the war began. And the average cost of gas in the United States, it's jumped 35% since the war began. It passed on average $4 a gallon today, the first time since 2022. Diesel hit $542 a gallon up from $3.76 cents. Though with that, you had White House Press Secretary Caroline Leavitt, arguing that it's just temporary in saying in a statement,

Starting point is 00:16:52 gas prices will plummet back to the multi-year lows as American drivers enjoyed before these short-term disruptions when the Iran war is over. And there, I would say she's kind of right, right, in the sense that experts say that prices won't meaningfully drop until the supplies can again flow freely out of the Persian Gulf through the street of Hormuz. But every single day that doesn't happen.

Starting point is 00:17:09 A quick recovery becomes even more difficult. And also whatever happens, the effects right now they're being experienced by everyday Americans. And Americans are already struggling with costs and some families are reportedly being pushed to the brink. I mean, globally, we've already talked about how the World Food Program said that tens of millions are at risk of being pushed into hunger.

Starting point is 00:17:24 And adding to that today, you had the UN Development Program reporting that the war may push four million people across the Arab world into poverty. With the head of the program's Regional Bureau for Arab States, noting that the projections were based on just four weeks of war, which we've now passed. And then on top of all that, of course,

Starting point is 00:17:36 there have been the lives that have been long. The American death toll stands at 13 service members, at least 17 have been killed in Israel, at least 50 people have been reported killed in other nations across the region, and those numbers of course are dwarfed by the death tolls in Iran and Lebanon. At least 1,574 civilians, including 236 children, have been killed since the war began, according to the human rights activist news agency. And more than 1,20030 people in Lebanon have been killed since the latest fighting between Israel and Hezbollah began, according to the Lebanese health ministry.

Starting point is 00:17:59 And that's a place where some increasingly worried that what happened in Gaza may be playing out once again there, especially as Israel has more clearly outlined its plan for the invasion, occupation and destruction of homes in the southern part of the country. Then also, while we're talking about Israel, they've come under criticism for their latest moves targeting Palestinians. And that's because you had Israeli lawmakers wearing nooses on their lapels to show support for a new law that other countries are saying will be used to hang Palestinians while Israeli attackers go free.

Starting point is 00:18:22 Or with that law, allowing them to hang people for homicides that they say are intended to undermine the state of Israel. Once convicted, the verdict only requires a simple majority vote and the accused have to be killed within 180 days, which limits their chance for a retry. And as far as why hanging instead of something like a lethal injection, Well, that's because Israel's National Doctors Union has refused to carry out lethal injections with the chairman of the Israeli Medical Association's Ethics Committee, saying, quote, using medical knowledge for purposes other than promoting health and well-being, undermines the ethical foundations of medicine.

Starting point is 00:18:47 But then also, another thing with this is that judges will apparently be able to make exceptions for those convicted. However, the circumstances there are unspecified, and reports say, quote, the legislation will leave those convicted in military courts with no clear path to receiving a pardon. And that's before mentioning that Palestinians tried in military courts specifically have fewer civil rights protections and less due process than if they were tried in Israel's civil. with maybe the only small relief for those who are concerned here being that the law won't be applied to Palestinians who have already been jailed. Also, while these hangings would technically apply to both Israeli and Palestinian crimes, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's ruling coalition seemed to specifically argue that the law would be to discourage future Palestinian attacks on the Israeli people. And as you have many far-right Israeli lawmakers seeing this as a win, who also have many others saying this is a definitive sign of the aggressive front that the country has been seeing against Palestinians, which has only been growing since the Hamas tax back in 2023. At that year, Hamas sees more than 250 people, eventually exchanging surviving capital. and the remains of those killed for some 3,500 Palestinian prisoners held by Israeli forces. And you've had right-wing lawmakers like Moshe Saddha having said,

Starting point is 00:19:43 each time we don't use the death penalty, we are encouraging the next attempt to take hostages. But then with all that, you're seeing people saying, well, a problem here is that not all Palestinians or Hamas, in fact, the vast majority of them are. With also people calling out a double standard. Or because when asked about Jewish extremists like Barack Goldstein, who murdered 29 Palestinians in 1994, Sada only said that they should be imprisoned, saying you can't compare them to Hamas extremists because they have a society that's quote, supporting and encouraging their actions.

Starting point is 00:20:07 But there, you've had critics making the same comments about Israeli extremists on the other side. And many saying that the caveat of the law targeting attacks that negate the existence of Israel seems to be completely ignoring any attacks that have been made in the name of the Israeli state. With reports saying that by this standard, it would effectively be impossible to execute Jewish extremists.

Starting point is 00:20:22 And you had the former head of Israel's public defender's office saying the intent is clearly for the law to apply to Palestinians and not to Jewish terrorism at all. And then you also had a lawyer with a Palestinian rights group telling the times, by design, this legislation exclusively targets Palestinians violating the fundamental principle of equality and prohibition on racial discrimination. With the law then also striking other fears that as Palestinians wait for potential death sentences, extremists could be inspired to take more hostages to demand their release, creating this sort of cycle of

Starting point is 00:20:47 violence that could exacerbate the problem even further. The Israeli government didn't seem moved by these types of issues before it was put into places. Israeli justice officials, liberal groups, and countries like Britain, Germany, Italy, and France all warned against it as well, saying we are particularly worried about the de facto discriminatory character of the bill, saying the adoption of this bill would risk undermining Israel's commitments with regard to democratic principles. And actually, for some context here, Israel's only used the death penalty twice in its history. Once for a man who was publicly exonerated after his death and another for a leading Nazi official. And it's also worth noting that many Western countries outside of the U.S. have moved away from the death penalty.

Starting point is 00:21:18 And in fact, so much so that reports say that Israeli lawmakers frequently invoked the American practice of capital punishment when justifying the legislation. However, legal experts are raised in alarms that this new law, it ignores the guardrails that we use in the U.S., which are meant to minimize the death penalty's inherent risks. Of course, there are concerns about and examples of the failure of those guardrails as well. And then also the targeted language surrounding this new law leaves a lot of room for concern. But on religious grounds more conservative orthodox lawmakers, even those in Netanyahu's coalition were against the law based on rabbinical ruling. Rabbi Beni Lau of Jerusalem said that

Starting point is 00:21:47 although capital punishment exists in Jewish legal tradition, it almost is impossible to carry out. But also with this sudden pressure you had Rabbi Lau saying it's clear that this is all about revenge. It's a circus of violence pretending to be about security. People saying that we're seeing medieval violence being signed into law all because of the politics of hateful extremist leaders who have done their best to actually keep the tensions rising and arguing that this is actually going to leave more innocent lives in danger. But for now, we'll have to wait to see how this continues to play out. And in the meantime, what are your thoughts here? We'll get back to the video in just a minute, but first, let me thank a sponsor and say, you know, I've got to thank you

Starting point is 00:22:17 for trusting us to wade through the chaos of the daily news cycle. And that's why we've used today's sponsor, Ground News, as part of our research process in today's deep dive. Right behind the scenes of the PDS, we use Ground News to account for media bias, relative levels of source, factual and of course know who owns the source because, well, you know, that can matter. And you know, if you want to dive deeper into the impact of rising oil prices, ground news aggregated 300 articles, podcasts, and analyses from across the political spectrum, all centered around Iran's attacks on Gulf energy sites and resulting oil supply disruption. They even link directly to key moments and podcasts where this topic ends up being discussed,

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Starting point is 00:23:07 Dot news slash DeFranco today to get 40% off unlimited access to the Vanguard plan, which is the one I use. Then, diving back into the news for our final story today, we need to talk about how thanks to shoddy police work and artificial intelligence, this woman spent five months in jail for a crime that was committed in a state that she had never even been to. So this is Angela Lipp. She's a 50-year-old grandmother of five from Tennessee. And in fact, she spent nearly her her first, entire life in northern Tennessee with the full extent of her traveling being, you know, to surrounding states. And so it definitely caught her by surprise when she was arrested and extradited for bank

Starting point is 00:23:35 fraud in North Dakota. Right, because last summer, police in Fargo, North Dakota, they were investigating a string of bank frauds that took place in April and May. And at least four of those, the same woman showed a fake military ID card with stolen personal information and withdrew money from a bank account or a home equity line of credit. In the West Fargo Police Department, they took this surveillance footage from these frauds and decided to ask its intelligence unit to identify a person of interest using an AI-powered facial recognition app called Clearview In Clearview AI, it actually works by scraping billions of photos from social media sites, and it's used by hundreds of local police departments, the Department of Homeland Security,

Starting point is 00:24:05 and the FBI. Though they pointedly say that it's not meant to be used on its own but as a tool within the broader investigation process, and you had the company saying, it generates leads, it does not make identifications, draw conclusions, or recommend arrests. When using Clearview AI's platform, independent corroboration by trained law enforcement professionals is required. And as you have picked up by this point, that is not what happened. Right, the West Fargo Police said that the Clearview AI, quote,

Starting point is 00:24:29 identified a potential suspect with similar features to Angela Lips, and they passed that information onto the Fargo Police. And they then tracked down Angela's Facebook and Instagram and her Tennessee driver's license with the Fargo Police Detective determining that Angela matched the suspect that Clearview AI offered. Which was then apparently enough probable cause for the Cass County State's Attorney's Office to charge Angela with eight felonies, four counts of unauthorized use of personal identifying information and four counts of property theft.

Starting point is 00:24:51 Right, and then in July, a judge signed an arrest warrant authorizing nationwide extradition of Angela to Fargo. And within two weeks, U.S. Marshals arrested Angela in Tennessee at gunpoint while she was babysitting four young kids. But they then booked in jail in Tennessee as a fugitive from justice from North Dakota, and she was there for more than three months. And that's despite repeatedly saying that she had never even been to North Dakota. But she was told that if she wanted to fight the charges, she'd have to allow herself to be extradited. And come October, that is exactly what happened with Angela writing in a GoFund me post. It was the first time I had ever been on an airplane. I was terrified and exhausted and humiliated.

Starting point is 00:25:21 And this is where the real kicker is after meeting with her, Angela's attorney, Jay Greenwood, he did some pretty standard level digging into the case. He spoke with her family and friends who sent over some bank records showing that she'd been making deposits and withdrawals in Tennessee at the same time the frauds in North Dakota were happening. So you had her attorney saying the authorities blindly trusted the AI and quote made zero other efforts

Starting point is 00:25:39 to corroborate that identification. And adding, nor did they do any interviews with her or people in her orbit to determine whether they had the right person. And so as a result of that, Angela spent five months in jail. It wasn't until just before Christmas that the charges were dismissed. And then on Christmas Eve, Angela was finally released from custody in North Dakota.

Starting point is 00:25:55 But then, she also didn't have any way to get back home. My summer clothes on and no coat and it was so cold outside and snow on the ground. I'm scared. I'm scared about that too. You know, I wanted out, but I wanted, I didn't know what I was going to do. I was going to get home. For the Fargo Police, they didn't even pay for any expenses. In fact, local defense attorneys put her up in a hotel room and got her money for food off her Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. And then from there, she was driven to Chicago so she could get back to Tennessee. and because of her lengthy stay in jail, she wasn't able to pay her bills at home. And so when she got back to Tennessee, she had lost everything, her house, her car, even her dog.

Starting point is 00:26:32 But the reason that we're talking about this now is because the police in North Dakota have recently come out to admit their, quote, missteps in handling the case. Pointing to West Fargo and saying they weren't aware their neighbor had used a new AI system and they have since prohibited its use going forward. Right. And that along with a complete overhaul of their use of AI as well with the Fargo police chief saying, we're happy to acknowledge when we make errors and we've made a few in this case for sure. We certainly apologize for any effect or adverse effect that this has had on trust in the community. Though we notably stopped short of apologizing to Angela directly.

Starting point is 00:27:01 And when he was called out about that, he responded by saying that they are still investigating the Fargo bank frauds and that it must be carried out by a large criminal organization saying. So I think that's an appropriate question and response at the right time, but we do not know definitively who's involved and who's not at this juncture. Though of course, Angela's attorneys were quick to mention that there is no evidence connecting her to bank frauds. And so then with that, we know that they're planning to file a lawsuit and they're specifically looking into why she was held for so long Especially when the bank records to exonerate her were readily available, and so you had her attorney saying, we believe that Angela's lengthy detention was unnecessary and should have been avoided with a proper investigation by law enforcement.

Starting point is 00:27:33 And I will say it's also worth noting that the same police chief who stopped short of apologizing to Angela has also conveniently just retired, with him even shooting down questions about Angela at his retirement press conference. And so, yeah, AI apparently not just coming for a lot of people's jobs. In the wrong hands, it's also taking away people's freedom, which is just absolutely insane. and it then begs the question of, are there other cases like this in the United States? And if so, how many? But that way there, my friends, you beautiful bastards,

Starting point is 00:27:58 is the end of today's show. Though remember, for individualized breakdowns to today's stories as well as stuff that wasn't even on the show, go to and subscribe to philiptofranco.com, we're on substack now. You'll even get some extras there, including ad-free Philip DeFranco shows if you want.

Starting point is 00:28:10 And I just did a deep dive interview with Tommy Vitor from Pod Save America. But no matter what you do, let me just say, thank you for watching. I love yo faces, and I'll see you right back here tomorrow. My worst political take by far was Hillary Clinton. and can't lose. Just the arrogance leading into the 2016 election,

Starting point is 00:28:25 the dismissal of Trump. I'm just like a huge butterfly wings guy, like the worst things that have happened to me in my life. If I think about them today, I wouldn't change a thing because I feel like it got me from here to there. And so my advice to people is like lean into it, lean into the grief, you know,

Starting point is 00:28:39 like don't try to go hide and be alone.

The Philip DeFranco Show - What Everyone Got Wrong About Charlie Kirk Bullet Report

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