The Philip DeFranco Show - Why Republicans Are Losing While Trump Wins

Starting point is 00:00:00 Behind every F-35 jet is a Canadian company, horizontal tails built in Winnipeg, engine sensors from Ottawa, and stealth composite panels crafted in Loonenberg to name just a few. Thanks to thousands of skilled Canadian workers, the F-35 aircraft is delivering unmatched capabilities for 20 allied nations around the world, and will generate more than $15.5 billion in industrial value for Canada. This ad is sponsored by the F-35 partner team, Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, Northrop Grumman, and RTX. Learn more at www.f35.com slash Canada. Republicans may have lost yesterday's elections, but Donald Trump won, despite his horrible polling. Like, this man owns the Republican Party. Or be getting into specifics, if you weren't paying attention,

Starting point is 00:00:38 you might not have known that there were midterm primaries in special elections in Ohio, Michigan, and Indiana yesterday. And you had a lot of people paying very close attention, not just to see who won, but also to see if it could give us a hint as to what to expect from the electoral battle later this year. So starting with Indiana, one of the big issues on the ballot was gerrymandering. Or because Indiana, it's one of the states that Trump pressured to redraw its congressional districts last year, making phone calls, sending J.D. Vance there twice, and even inviting its long lawmakers to the White House. But despite Trump laying it on thick,

Starting point is 00:01:02 pushing Indiana's state Senate, rejected the gerrymandered map in December, with 21 of 40 GOP lawmakers joining Democrats. And so then, in yesterday's primaries, you had seven of those Republicans who voted no facing challenges from Trump-backed candidates. And these races were crazy. You had conservative groups,

Starting point is 00:01:17 including Charlie Kirk's Turning Point USA, pouring millions of dollars into attack ads, way more money than the same races would have attracted years ago. Opposing Trump's policies, we don't have to be stuck with Rhino Greg Walker. And then also after, Trump got on truth social and started naming names, the incumbent Republicans got flooded with death threats, bomb scares, even squatting calls.

Starting point is 00:01:36 The cops busted down one lawmaker's door and pointed guns at him after they got a false report claiming he had killed his wife. And then when it got to the actual polls, the votes yesterday, Trump's guys, they mostly won. Or with him beating five out of the seven incumbents and actually as of recording, one race is still too close to call. And so one of the easy conclusions to draw from all this is that Trump is still the boss of the Republican Party. Even today, despite his crumbling support, he can still credibly threaten Republicans who cross him, even in races that traditionally focus on more local issues. Then, jumping to Ohio's governor's race, Trump's guy also won there, though he did so against a very different opponent. You had Vivek Ramoswamy, who Trump endorsed running in the GOP primary against Casey Pooch, who is a complete political outsider. And a big thing here is that he wasn't some like anti-gerrymandering moderate that was going after Trump's guy.

Starting point is 00:02:16 He's been described as far right, he's mocked Ramoswamy's ethnicity and religion, he's cast himself as the true American. Vivek is disgusting. It's disgusting he's here. It's disgusting that he's running to be the governor. He's also been accused of anti-Semitism, especially for clips like this one where he asked Grog. Give me a list of all the good things Adolf Hitler did or was responsible for creating in his life. And so with that, while many might expect

Starting point is 00:02:42 a white nationalist Nick Fuentes to really endorse this guy, especially because he does not like Ramoswamy, what you've ended up seeing is Fuentes actually running in the opposite direction and endorsing the Democratic candidate for Governor Amy Acton. We are Democrats now. So you gave us Vivek, we're gonna give you Amy Acton. It is a middle finger, it is a protest

Starting point is 00:03:00 vote. It is a fuck you. Let's be the villain. Let's be the villain because we hate the Republican Party right now more than we hate the Democrats. You're damn right. I'll take an enemy over a traitor. The Republican Party put up a pharmaceutical billionaire Hindu Indian who wants more H-1Bs to run for governor of a Rust Belt state. That is a betrayal. That is an insult. They have spit in the face of every Republican in the state of Ohio, do better next time. Though if you keep tabs on Nick, this is really not surprising. He and others who are unhappy with a number of Republican things, oftentimes for not being far right enough.

Starting point is 00:03:39 They've been actually arguing to not vote or to vote Democrats so that the Republicans feel the most pain then, and then they kind of have to come crawling back. The weather be this November or in the future, we'll have to see if there's any meaningful difference in the votes. Especially because Ramoswamy has explicitly taken a stance against the far right represented by Fuentes, though he's also still very Trumpian, so do with that what you will.

Starting point is 00:03:57 believe in normalizing hatred towards any ethnic group, toward whites, towards blacks, towards Hispanics, towards Jews, towards Indians, you have no place in the future of the conservative movement, period. And I will not apologize for that. If you believe, and you will forgive me for giving you an exact quote from our online commentator, Nick Fuentes, if you believe that Hitler was pretty fucking cool, you have no place in the future of the conservative movement. Meanwhile, in the Democratic primary for the Ohio seat vacated by J.D. Vance, the political veteran, Sherrod Brown, defeated the first-time candidate Ron Kincaid. So that sets up Brown to go against sitting GOP Senator John Houston, which is gonna shape up to be one of the most closely watched

Starting point is 00:04:37 races in the country. Right, and then, in a Republican primary for one of Ohio's house seats, you had Trump's former deputy director of ICE, Madison Cheehan, actually losing. And so there, you have a number of analysts believing that might signal that an immigration-heavy message just might not be popular this November since that was the focus of her whole campaign. And less than one year at ICE, I've stopped more, illegal immigration than Marcy Capter has in her 43 years in Washington. I'm Madison Sheehan. And then lastly, in Michigan, you have Democrats hanging on to the majority just by a thread

Starting point is 00:05:04 in the state Senate after Shedric Green defeated Republican Jason Toney in a special election. Well, Michigan 35th Senate District has spoken and they said loudly and clearly that they want this Marine veteran, this retired fire captain, and proud union member to be their next day soon. Because we won! The key thing with this one is that this election's only gonna let him serve out the remaining eight months of the current term, so he basically has to start campaigning again immediately for the next race in November. And since it'll be the general, not a special election, there might be a higher turnout, which Tunney is counting on to close that 20-point gap that he lost by.

Starting point is 00:05:40 But either way, and kind of the final thing I'll hit on here, is that yesterday was very good but also bad for Trump. Right, as I've said, he is the boss of the Republican Party. It's one of the reasons I commend the Republicans that are brave enough to speak up, because if you do that, very soon you become former representative. But how those Trump-back candidates do in non-jerrymandered districts, how they do where Trump's not able to scare away or suppress the vote. That remains to be seen because right now, it looks like it's gonna be an uphill battle

Starting point is 00:06:04 for the Republicans all across the country in November. Each time we take a look at the polls, it just looks like it gets worse and worse for. Just last week, you had another one asking people which party they'd vote for in the midterms if they were held today and Democrats led by 10 points. No one likes Democrats that much, not even Democrats. And that's as Democrats are also eight points more likely

Starting point is 00:06:19 than Republicans to say they're very enthusiastic to vote, 61% to 53%. But again, a lot can change from now to elect, In addition to whatever voter suppression tactics he's going to try and use, he's most likely going to try and wind down as deeply unpopular things. You'd think at least. But it's infinitely harder for him to distract people with bullshit culture war things so that they don't pay attention to all the ways that he's failing them when you have just right in your face the war with Iran, which is his war of choice. Being gas costs so much more and making everything else cost so much more. But for now, I'll have to wait to see how all of this plays out. And in the meantime, I'd love to know your thoughts, especially if you were in any of the places I voted yesterday. And then also as you know we're talking about the future of America, we should. then talk about what RFK Jr. is trying to do. Because he just rolled out what Health and Human Services is calling a Maha action plan to curb so-called psychiatric overprescribing. And that includes SSRIs that you've probably heard of, like Zolov, Lexapro, and Prozac. And in his rollout statement, you had Kennedy, saying that he wants to shift the standard of care toward prevention,

Starting point is 00:07:11 transparency, and a more holistic approach to mental health. And he also said that this isn't about taking medication away from people who currently rely on it, but he wants to reduce what he called unnecessary dependence. And the actual plan, at least so far, does look to be pretty modest. At HHS, they'll put out a report on prescribing trends. They'll roll out provider education around what they're calling inappropriate prescribing, and they'll push what they're calling non-pharmacological interventions, therapy, sleep, exercise, and diet. And here's the thing, like, on its face, not really any of that is wrong.

Starting point is 00:07:36 Therapy is underused in this country, sleep matters, exercise helps. Most psychiatrists would tell you the same, but the problem isn't the bullet points. For many, part of the problem is what RFK keeps saying around them. Because in making his case for this, Kennedy is now multiple times, including this week, compared SSRI withdrawal to coming off of heroin, saying that a family member's experience, tapering off of an SSRI, was in his telling,

Starting point is 00:07:55 comparable to his own well-documented pass withdrawal from heroin. And in the past, he's gone even further and claimed that antidepressants are actually harder to quit than heroin. And so, you know, with this, I want to say I want to be thoughtful, I want to be careful, because this is a very real thing. SSRI withdrawal, it is real, people genuinely experience withdrawal symptoms when coming off of antidepressants. For some, it can be very rough. The medical community at times, I think, is underplayed how rough? That is a conversation that is worth having, but also heroin withdrawal, which can land people in the hospital, which carries one of the highest relapse rates of any substance, which has driven the worst

Starting point is 00:08:25 overdose crisis in modern history, is not in the same universe. And so you have people, including experts saying when the person setting U.S. health policy keeps reaching for that comparison anyway, it stops being like a medical argument and it's more of a rhetorical one. Also with this, we should talk about the numbers, right? A recent survey found about 16% of adults are currently taking an antidepressant with actually the people behind this plan pointing to that number is evidence of overuse. But there's also numbers missing from the rollout, right? Only 40% of adults and adolescents with diagnosis, depression have actually received counseling or therapy at all. And depression rates in this country,

Starting point is 00:08:54 according to Gallup's most recent polling, they're sitting at historic highs. So when the people who actually treat mental illness, they look at that same data, they don't see overprescribing as the central problem. They see massive under-treatment as a massive problem. They see millions of people who can't find a therapist, can't afford one, don't live near one, or waited months for an opening and gave up. They see medication often as the only piece of mental health care that a lot of Americans can actually access. And so it ends up not being that surprising when you have the American Psychiatric Association while welcoming, you know, a national focus on mental health, directly objecting the framing we're seeing here. Saying we strongly object to framing the nation's

Starting point is 00:09:27 mental health crisis is primarily a problem of over-medicalization or over-prescribing, saying that characterization oversimplifies a complex crisis and ignores the larger reality. Too many patients cannot access timely, comprehensive care while care remains unevenly distributed across our health system. With them going on to argue that the solution is not stigmatizing psychiatric medication, the solution is making sure that patients have access to the full range of evidence-based treatments. Right, and to be guided by the best available science and the patient's actual needs.

Starting point is 00:09:52 And so actually, with that, we then have to flag that major medical organizations were notably absent from Kennedy's rollout. So why you're seeing them respond from the outside, they weren't on stage, they weren't quoted in the press release. Newsom, saying that Kennedy has a track record here. He's previously suggested with no supporting evidence, a link between antidepressants and school shootings.

Starting point is 00:10:08 A claim that actually mental health professionals have spent years pushing back on because it stigmatizes the people most likely to be in crisis and least likely to be violent. But, you know, with this whole situation, you can sort of see how and why some people might get skeptical about how psychiatric medication is prescribed in this country. You've got kids sometimes prescribe multiple medications by providers who aren't psychiatrists, long-term SSRI use. It's not always reevaluated and withdrawal.

Starting point is 00:10:30 It's not always explained clearly to patients before they start. There are very real conversations that need to be had about how prescribing happens and who's doing it. That's largely a conversation for clinicians and patients. Right, not a federal action plan built on the framing that an entire class medication is the problem. Right, because of the larger mental health crisis in this country, the rising depression rates, the loneliness, the suicide numbers, the kids in waiting rooms and towns that don't have a therapist, that crisis is about access. And also, of course, cost, right? We have a healthcare system where the cheapest mental health intervention is a 15-minute appointment and a prescription. Because

Starting point is 00:10:58 among other things, the alternative actually ongoing therapy is something that most insurance still won't fully cover. And it's why you're seeing so many people saying, hey, the energy's right, the thinking of helping people's right, but telling people that their medications basically heroin doesn't get them therapy. It just gets them scared. But hey, and I'm actually, I'm finding myself saying this multiple times today because I'm actually very interesting. and your thoughts, what are your thoughts with this story? Especially if you're on or have been on this medication in the past. And then there's more we got to dive into in just a minute,

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Starting point is 00:12:18 Scan that QR code or go to Sundays for Dogs.com slash fill for 50% off your first order. That's half off to finally upgrade your dog's bowl to something worthy. Then, diving right back into the news, the U.S. and Iran have almost reached an agreement to end the war and reopen the Strait of Hormuz. And apparently because of that, Trump is pausing Project Freedom, the operation he announced to reopen the waterway on Sunday. Which Pete Hegseth claimed yesterday had already cleared the way for commercials to pass through. All because the two American naval destroyers, followed by two merchant vessels, were able to transit the straight on Monday. And you had Heggzeth saying that hundreds more ships from nations around the world were lining up to go. Never mind that those American ships had to fight off multiple Iranian attacks, which also targeted other ships and tankers, a residential building in Oman and an oil facility in the UAE.

Starting point is 00:12:57 And that's while hundreds of other vessels carrying up to 23,000 crew members, remained stranded in the Persian Gulf and in fact didn't seem all that interested in following. With Iran continuing to claim control over the strait and announcing a new mechanism to oversee maritime traffic through the waterway. And throughout all that, you had Hexeth insisting that the ceasefire remained in effect with General Dan Kane arguing, arguing, that Iranian attacks had not met the threshold for restarting major combat operations. And then it was only hours later that you had Trump writing on social media that great progress had been made toward a complete and final agreement with Iran, announcing that the operation would be paused for a short period of time to see whether that agreement could be finalized and signed. And then you had Axios later reporting that the administration

Starting point is 00:13:32 believed it was nearing an agreement with Iran regarding a one-page memorandum of understanding, which would also apparently not really be a complete and final agreement, like Trump said, but would provide a framework for further negotiations focused on the nuclear issue. But in any case, the memorandum would reportedly declare an end of the war and open a 30-day window for negotiating a detailed agreement. And among other issues, that deal would involve Iran committing to a moratorium on nuclear enrichment, the U.S. agreeing to lift its sanctions and release billions in frozen Iranian funds, and both the U.S. and Iran lifting restrictions around transit through the Strait of Hormuz. Also, I'll say regarding the Strait, both sides would begin gradually lifting restrictions during the 30-day period.

Starting point is 00:14:05 And that's a key point, because every single day that remains closed has a huge impact. Though, it also stands out because Iran previously suggested reopening the strait and negotiating the strait and negotiations the nuclear issue afterwards. And Trump rejected that offer saying the nuclear issue had to be addressed. Now with that, the administration has reportedly made clear that it would be able to resume military action if talks collapsed, so he's not necessarily fully backing down on that issue. But also, maybe he is, and then also with everything, the duration of the moratorium on uranium enrichment reportedly remains one of the most significant points of contention.

Starting point is 00:14:32 You had Iran previously proposing a five-year ban, the US demanded 20, but now you have three sources telling Axios that it would be at least 12 years, with one saying 15 is the likely landing spot. which again is something that stands out because 15 years was also the length of time of the nuclear deal negotiated under Obama. Though also in that case, it wasn't a full ban on enrichment. Instead, enrichment was capped at 3.67%, which is enough for civilian purposes, but far below the 90% needed for a nuclear weapon. In the Trump administration, they're reportedly pushing for a provision that would have any Iranian violation extend the timeline, with enrichment capped at 3.67% even after its end. Also, according to some of Axios' sources, Iran would commit to never seek a nuclear weapon or conduct weaponization-related activities.

Starting point is 00:15:10 it would remove its current stockpile of highly enriched uranium from the country, and it would agree to an enhanced inspections regime, including snap inspections by UN inspectors. And then finally, of the two sides reportedly discussing a clause whereby Iran would commit not to operate underground nuclear facilities. And while it's definitely far too soon to see if this is going to work out, the markets, I'll say, reacted very positively. Oil prices fell roughly 11% back under $100 a barrel. Still way up from before the war, but definitely a huge change. And so also with all this, you had some sources saying that the U.S. was expecting Iranian responses on some several key points, than the next 48 hours.

Starting point is 00:15:41 And also claiming that it was the closest that the two sides had been to an agreement since this war began. Then also, you have the White House reportedly believing that the Iranian leadership is divided and may not be able to reach a consensus and some American officials remain unconvinced that even this initial one-page memorandum is gonna get finalized.

Starting point is 00:15:55 As far as Iran publicly, so far they've only said that they were reviewing a new US proposal and would give it an answer soon via Pakistan. Though there, you had an Iranian news agency saying that the text contained unacceptable clauses and was just propaganda, quote, aimed at justifying Trump's retreat from his recent hostile action.

Starting point is 00:16:10 And that, you had a spokesperson for the country's parliamentary national security committee, describing it as more of an American wish list than a reality, saying the Americans will not gain anything in a war they are losing that they have not gained in face-to-face negotiations. Though, again, we'll have to wait to see. A lot of people on both sides have been saying a lot of things. We'll have to see what the official response is.

Starting point is 00:16:27 Like, does it match the rhetoric? Though also in the meantime, you had Trump trying to apply pressure, writing in another post this morning, assuming Iran agrees to give what has been agreed to, which is perhaps a big assumption, the already legendary epic fury will be at an end and the highly effective blockade will allow the Hormu straight to be open to all, including Iran, but adding, if they don't agree, the bombing starts, and it will be, sadly, at a much higher level

Starting point is 00:16:49 in intensity than it was before. Then with all that, despite talk of an imminent deal, he later told the New York Post that it was still too soon to consider face-to-face meetings with Iran. But then, he told PBS that the war had a very good chance of ending while also adding, if they agree, it's over, if they don't agree, we bomb. And that option is something that a number of his supporters would prefer. Supporters, like Senator Lindsay Graham, who's been a staunch supporter of the war, arguing that Iran's recent attacks on the UAE and ships in the Gulf more than justifies a big, strong, and short response to inflict further damage on Iran's war machine. And that is his other great idea, which he told Fox News about yesterday, is what he calls a Second Amendment solution.

Starting point is 00:17:21 I love the idea of a Second Amendment solution for the Iranian people. So if I were President Trump and I were Israel, I would load the Iranian people up with weapons so they could go to the streets armed and turn the tide of battle inside Iran. We don't need American boots on the ground. We've We've got millions of boots on the ground in Iran, they just don't have any weapons. Give them the weapons so they can rise up like we did to destroy this regime. So with that, it's only kind of recently that he's seemingly changing his stance on putting American boots on the ground, having done kind of a total 180 on his prior call for the US to take Kargai-Elin.

Starting point is 00:17:58 Though Lindsay still says that he thinks that we ought to tell the Iranians, we will destroy it from the air. And then also, beyond politicians, while we've talked a lot about MAGA backlash to this war, other Trump supporters, they remain on board with further military action. The easiest move for the United States to make right now would be to just blow up Harg Island. Harg Island, you could do an amphibious operation there. It's a lot riskier. Or you could just blow it up.

Starting point is 00:18:19 It could blow up Harg Island. We could hit other energy resources inside the country. You could take down another layer of the IRGC. We'll probably have to do at some point another kinetic action against missile facilities that have been uncovered over the course of the last few weeks. Now, if the U.S. does attack Iran again, it's unclear whether the administration will have to come up with another new name for the mission. Or because yes, you had Trump saying in that post this morning that Operation Epic Fury could soon be, quote, at an end.

Starting point is 00:18:42 But you also had Secretary of State Marco Rubio telling reporters yesterday. The Operation Epic Fury is concluded. We achieved the objectives of that operation. And Rubio said that to justify the administration's claim that they haven't violated the 60-day time limit for engaging in hostilities without permission from Congress. Though many experts say that's kind of a load of crap. But to focus on the second part of that statement for a second, it is far from clear that the administration's objectives have actually been accomplished. Trump himself described the goals of this war as including Iran never having a nuclear program, the destruction of the country's ballistic missiles, and creating the conditions for the Iranian people to rise up and overthrow the regime. But US intelligence reportedly says that Iran could still probably have a nuclear weapon any year if it wanted.

Starting point is 00:19:17 Assessments also appear to show that more than half of the country's missiles and launchers have survived, and it's not clear that the current proposal makes any mention of that issue. And hard-dline elements of the Iranian regime may have even more power now as it cracks down a descent, executes protesters, and restricts internet access. And then, of course, on top of everything, a problem that didn't exist before, the straight-of-hubu's is. effectively closed. And while the administration has overstated its own accomplishments, it may have also downplayed Iran's. You now have the Washington Post reporting that based on satellite imagery, Iran has hit far more US military assets than has been publicly acknowledged by the White House. But apparently Iranian airstrikes of damage or destroyed at least 228 structures or pieces of equipment at American military sites across the Middle East since this war began. Hitting hangers, barracks, fuel depots, aircraft and key radar, communications, and air defense equipment. One expert told them the Iranian attacks were precise, there are no random craters indicating misses.

Starting point is 00:20:03 Though we also noted that he and other experts don't believe that the attacks have significantly limited the military's ability to conduct its bombing campaign in Iran. And they also noted that some of the damage may have occurred after U.S. troops already left the bases, making protection of the structures less vital. Though still, we're talking about Trump's actions that have left 13 U.S. troops killed and several hundred more injured over the course of this war. Well, there's a version of events where, you know, that is the end of all this, there's a version where this is just still kind of the beginning. And so for now, we're going to have to wait to see what happens with the current negotiations. And in the meantime, I really would love to know your thoughts. I'd love to hear from you in those comments down below. And then there's more we've got to dive into in just a minute, but let me thank a sponsor and say, you know,

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Starting point is 00:21:37 And just remember, use code DeFranco. Because now is the perfect time to plan. This episode is brought to by Nespresso. Hear that? That's your next obsession. Every coffee, a new world. Every sip, a new taste. This is the new Nespresso.

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Starting point is 00:22:14 It starts with how the FBI has reportedly opened a criminal leak investigation into a magazine reporter. And that reporter is Sarah Fitzpatrick of the Atlantic. And if that name sounds familiar, it's because last month she wrote a story where she cited more than two dozen anonymous sources. Sources including people inside the bureau, on the hill, and the lobbying world, even people who'd worked in the hospitality industry around him, alleging that FBI director Cash Patel has a drinking problem, has gone missing during work hours, and has on occasion been hard to wake up in the morning

Starting point is 00:22:39 by his own security detail. And according to MS Now, the Bureau's insider threat unit out of Huntsville, Alabama is now running a leak probe. Right, the part that has a lot of former DOJ people kind of raise in their eyebrows is that the leak in question, it does not appear to involve actually classified information, which historically has been the bar before the federal government starts pulling a journalist's phone records

Starting point is 00:22:56 and checking them out in bureau systems. But also, the FBI denies that this investigation, even exists. So the Atlantic's editor-in-chief, Jeffrey Goldberg, said, if it is true, it would be a, quote, outrageous, illegal, and dangerous attack on the free press. But what we do know for sure is that Patel sued the Atlantic for over $250 million just two weeks ago. Though almost every legal expert who's taken a look at it says that he's definitely going to lose this case. Even the nation calling it a giant cell phone. There are typos in this complaint that have become memes online. And while we're also going to dive into, like, winning this case,

Starting point is 00:23:23 probably not actually being the point. I wanted to dive into the one reason that it's even possible for the Atlantic to walk away from this. Because at the center of this, you have a Supreme Court case from 1964, the two current sitting Supreme Court justices have seemingly publicly said that they want to overturn. And there are organized well-funded efforts that are still going on right now that are going to give them a chance. And a lot of this, it's connected to how Patel in his lawsuit said that the Atlantic published a, quote, sweeping, malicious, and defamatory hit piece. And then, specifically going after 17 statements in the article, including the claims about drinking of private clubs in D.C. in Las Vegas, alleged an ability to perform his duties and being

Starting point is 00:23:54 just a national security risk. And Patel, he has a very high bar to clear, because when you are a public figure, a politician, a celebrity, a high-ranking government official, when you sue a journalist for defamation, they don't just have to prove that the story was wrong. They have to prove what the law caused actual malice. And that doesn't mean like the reporter was mean to them. That is a specific legal term. It means the reporter either knew that the story was false when they published it or that they had what's called a reckless disregard for whether it was true. And that's a really hard thing to prove. Because essentially, to win, you have to get inside of the reporter's head and prove that they didn't believe what they were writing. And actually, one of the ways we've seen this play out was with Sarah Palin. Sarah Palin lost her case against the New York Times. Or because the Times, they actually ran a false editorial connecting her to a mass shooting.

Starting point is 00:24:31 The editor, who oversaw it, testified in court that yes, he made a mistake, and yes, he tried to fix it as fast as he could. And so the court said, oh, okay, well, that's a mistake, that's not malice. Palin loses. And it's also why you had Fox News paying Dominion $787.5 million. Because in Discovery, internal Fox texts came out where on-air talent and executives were privately admitting that they thought the election fraud claims that they were broadcasting on-air were nonsense. That is a textbook case of actual malice. He knew it, and they aired it anyway. And so with that, going back to Patel, he's claiming actual mess.

Starting point is 00:24:58 And his main arguments are the Atlantic gave the FBI less than two hours to respond before publication. They buried the FBI's denial and they later edited the headline. None of that is even close to actual malice, right? Two hour response windows are aggressive, but legal, burying a denial in your eyes. That's not the same as ignoring evidence. And most importantly, the reporter cited more than two dozen sources. The whole structure of this story is like people who know this guy are worried about it. That is not a claim that the reporter is making about Patel personally.

Starting point is 00:25:23 It is a report on what colleagues are reportedly saying. And also, speaking to that many people of that people, honest story is pretty much the opposite of recklessly disregarding the truth. And so again, most people including a number of commentators on the right, they think that Patel is gonna lose, but the winning might not even be the goal. Right, the lawsuit, the legal fees that come with it, the hours that the Atlantic's lawyers and reporters are having to spend pulling documents for discovery instead of doing journalism? The chilling effect it might have on others that have the audacity to report news on

Starting point is 00:25:50 the administration, that's probably the goal. There's even a name for it. People who study press read and call it lawfare. Using the legal system just to make it expensive to do journalism. And it works whether you win the case or not. But though really, the only reason it doesn't work even better is because of a Supreme Court case. Because in 1964, you have the New York Times v. Sullivan. And if you're not familiar with this case, that's normal.

Starting point is 00:26:09 Most people kind of go, ah, the thing with the actual malice and they point backwards, vaguely. But it's very interesting to dive into, right? Because in 1960, Martin Luther King Jr. had been arrested in Alabama on what most historians considered trumped up tax rod charges. And so a group of his supporters, they bought a full-page ad in the New York Times asking for donations for his legal defense. And when the ad ran, it accused Alabama police and various officials, of brutality and harassment of civil rights protesters. But the ad, it had some factual errors.

Starting point is 00:26:32 For things like it got the number of times that King had been arrested wrong, it said that the protesters sang one song when they actually sang a different one. While the Montgomery Alabama Police Commissioner, a guy by the name of L.B. Sullivan, wasn't named in the ad. He wasn't described in the ad. He sued the Times anyway, claiming that any criticism of the police

Starting point is 00:26:47 implicitly meant him. And the setup of this trial, it was wild. Right, it happened in Montgomery, the judge, this is insane. But the day before the trial, reenacting the swearing in of Jefferson Davis as the president of the Confederacy, and some of the people who showed up in that courtroom were even wearing Confederate uniforms. And the jury, unsurprisingly, was all white, all male,

Starting point is 00:27:05 and they awarded Sullivan $500,000, which in today's money is roughly $5 million. Right, and this wasn't like some random outlier thing. Officials all across the South, they had figured out that you could weaponize libel law to try to bankrupt any Northern newspaper that sent reporters down to cover the Civil Rights Movement. By 1961, the Times alone was facing

Starting point is 00:27:19 more than $6 million in libel claims over its civil rights coverage. You had the legal director saying that those lawsuits nearly bankrupted them. But also when you add up all the Northern papers, they're recovering the movement, the total ran to nearly $300 million in libel claims, and that's in 1960s dollars. But then what you see is the Supreme Court takes up this case, and in March of 1964, they ruled unanimously. Right, nine did nothing, that this whole approach was unconstitutional. And it's there that the actual malice standard comes from. Right, the Supreme Court said that

Starting point is 00:27:45 if you are a public official and you want to sue a newspaper for defamation, you have to prove that the newspaper either knew the story was false or recklessly disregarded the truth. And then, three years later in 1967, they extended the rule to public figures in general. So celebrities, business leaders, anyone who's voluntarily in public life. And their reasoning was, if the threat of a libel suit is just hanging over every reporter who might criticize a powerful person, no one's ever gonna criticize. The potential cause to be in wrong, it's just too high.

Starting point is 00:28:08 And a press that can't criticize the powerful, that's not a free press, that's just PR. So it's actually this ruling that's been holding up press freedom in this country for 62 years. But that also makes it a ruling that a number of people want to take down. And like I said at the beginning, there is an organized well-funded legal effort

Starting point is 00:28:21 going on right now to find the right Supreme Court case that lets them overturn New York Times v. Sullivan. As far as where some of the potential, potential votes come from, you're not gonna be surprised by at least one of the names. Justice Clarence Thomas has written publicly starting in 2019 that he believed Sullivan was wrongly decided. He's argued that it lets the press make false statements about public figures with, quote, near impunity. Also, Neil Gorsuch might be there as well, right? Because Gorsuch joined Thomas in a 2021 case, though, his angle, I will say, is different. Because Gorsuch's argument is basically that

Starting point is 00:28:46 the media landscape that Sullivan was decided and doesn't exist anymore. That was 1964. There were three networks, a handful of major papers with actual fact-checking departments. And in 2026, there's Twitter, AI generated misinformation, 12,000 random YouTube channels, also high. So he appears to think that the standard that made sense for the New York Times in 1964 might not make sense for whatever this is. Now two votes, that obviously doesn't get you there to changing precedent. You have to have five. But one, we don't know where a number of the other conservative justices would stand on this.

Starting point is 00:29:13 And two, a lot of this might depend on the case that they use as a vehicle. So with that, I'll note that you had Steve Wynn, the casino owner asking the court last February to overturn Sullivan as part of a defamation suit against the Associated Press. And with that one, the Supreme Court refused to take that up. in March of 2025. Also, you have Coral Ridge Ministries, a Christian organization that sued the Southern Poverty Law Center for being put on a hate group list. They also tried. And there, the court actually asked SPLC to file a response to that petition, even though SPLC had already won at the lower court level. And so that one could actually be a small but very real sign. And actually

Starting point is 00:29:41 right now there's a pending petition from Alan Dershowitz against CNN. And that one specifically asked the court to consider whether the actual malice standard should be discarded, quote, altogether, or at least as private citizens who are public figures. And there, we'll find out later this spring whether the court takes it up. And that's while we've seen some state activity as well. With Florida being the most active example, spending recent years actively introducing bills basically engineered to be Sullivan vehicles. Laws that appear to conflict with the actual malice standard in ways designed to force a federal court to say which one wins. But for now, I'll kind of leave it with two last things. The standard right now, it's Sullivan set up. It is currently working as design.

Starting point is 00:30:12 Well, understandably, the settlements, they get a lot of press. Trump himself has been losing his own defamation suit against CNN over the phrase, the big lion. He's been losing it on actual malice grounds. But also, too, Sullivan is not invincible. Democrats often think in days and quarterly cycles, Republicans think in decades. There has been, is, and will continue to be a steady push of well-funded petition, specifically engineered to try and fight against this thing. And that's as this Patel lawsuit is a prime example of even trying to win might not be the point.

Starting point is 00:30:39 If you make actual journalism expensive, slow, exhausting, scary, maybe stories in the future don't get done. And ultimately, I wanted to dive through all this with you because I think it's worth understanding what we have and how we got it before we have to find out what happens when we don't. Hopefully, we won't have to find out soon. But that, my friends, you beautiful bastards, is the end of your Wednesday, Philip DeFranco's show. But you can also continue to get filled in on your hump day because I also just uploaded the brand new episode this week of crashing out. We dive into Spirit Airlines and it's just a ton of craziness.

Starting point is 00:31:08 Definitely recommend the watch. I have it on screen for you, but also links in the description. But hey, no matter what you do, let me just say thank you for watching. I love yo faces and I'll see you right back here tomorrow. A friend of the show passed away and that is our good friend, Spirit Airlines. Now the only way to take a spirit flight, the afterlife. The wrong one died. That is fucking DC Comics rules.

Starting point is 00:31:25 That is Batman not killing the Joker. Okay? I think the only way that Newsom passes is if people look at him and they're like, we want a demon of our own. Tucker Carlson looked directly into the camera and said, I lie. It was almost like they were trying to craft a narrative. It's weird. I want those days of my life back.

Starting point is 00:31:41 Stay angry. Crashing out. New episodes every Wednesday.

The Philip DeFranco Show - Why Republicans Are Losing While Trump Wins

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