The Pomp Podcast - #1023 Mark Moss On How Bitcoin Is A TimeChain, Not A Blockchain

Episode Date: June 28, 2022

Mark Moss is a Financial Educator and Host of "The Mark Moss Show" On iHeart Radio and Youtube. In this conversation, we talk about the future of the decentralized world, advantages to a deflationary currency like Bitcoin, Mark's theory around Bitcoin being a "timechain", and the possible innovations that may be built on top of Bitcoin in the coming decades. ======================= LMAX Digital - the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading & custodial services - offers clients a regulated, transparent and secure trading environment, together with the deepest pool of crypto liquidity. LMAX Digital is also a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading analytics platforms. LMAX Digital - secure, liquid, trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp ======================= The Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. Go to https://www.eightsleep.com/Pomp to check out the Pod Pro Cover and save $150 at checkout. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, and the UK. ======================= DeFi Technologies represents what’s next in the digital economy -- providing simplified, trusted access to crypto, decentralized finance and Web 3.0 investment opportunities. Institutions and investors can gain diversified, secure, compliant, and easily tradable access to a diversified set of industry-leading equity products and protocols, through a single stock purchase on a regulated exchange. Currently listed on U.S. (OTC: DEFTF) and Canadian (NEO:DEFI) exchanges.   For more information or to subscribe to receive company updates and financial information, visit our website at http://defi.tech  =======================

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Mark Moss is the creator and host of The Mark Moss Show on iHeartRadio. In this conversation, we talk about Bitcoin, proof of work, why crypto is different than Bitcoin, exactly how Bitcoin fits into the global macro environment, and what is the big C change that is underway across financial markets. I really enjoyed this conversation with Mark, and I hope you guys enjoy it as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I first want to talk about our sponsors. First up is LMAX Digital, the number one institutional crypto exchange. They offer

clients the deepest pool of crypto liquidity on the planet, underscored by 100% uptime track record through volatility spikes. They leverage LMAX Group's liquidity relationships and ultra low latency technology. LMAX Digital is the market leading solution for institutional crypto trading and custodial services. If you've never heard of LMAX Digital, it's probably because you're not an institution. They have no retail, only institutions. They feature a central limit order book

streaming spot Bitcoin, Ether, Litecoin, and Bitcoin Cash, all paired with US dollars, Euro, and Yen. LMAX Digital, they're secure, they're liquid, and they're trusted. Learn more at lmaxdigital.com slash pomp. Again, lmaxdigital.com slash pomp. This episode is brought to you by 8Sleep. Eight Sleep is the single best product

that I have purchased over the last three years. It completely changed my life. I'm not joking, pay attention. The Pod Pro Cover, which goes over your mattress by Eight Sleep, is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking.

You can go to eightsleep.com slash pump to check out the Pod Pro Cover and you save $150 at checkout. They currently ship within the United States, Canada, and the UK. And I told you, it changed my life. It helps me sleep deeper, helps me sleep longer. I feel much more refreshed and I have better energy.

You want to know how I have relentless energy every single day? Because I sleep on an 8sleep. Seriously, go check it out. 8sleep.com slash Pomp today. This episode is brought to you by DeFi Technologies. DeFi Technologies represents what's next in the digital economy. They're providing simplified, trusted access to crypto, decentralized finance, and Web3 investment opportunities.

Institutions and investors can gain diversified, secure, compliant, and easily tradable access to a diversified set of industry-leading equity products and protocols through a single stock purchase on a regulated exchange. DeFi Technologies is currently listed on the U.S. Exchange at DEFTF Stock Ticker and the Canadian NEO Exchange at DEFI. For more information or to subscribe to receive company updates and financial information, visit their website at DeFi.Tech. I'm really excited about what these guys are doing. I've become an advisor to the business

and I highly suggest you go check them out. Go to their website at defi.tech today. podcast is for informational purposes only. Mr. Mark Moss, dude, I'm very excited about this. I feel like you've been all over so much of what's happening in the world. We've been on it. Yeah. Let's talk macro environment first. Stuff's messed up. It just seems to be breaking, to say the least. What is your analysis as to where we are today? When somebody says to you, hey, what's going on in the economic world? How do you describe where we are? Yeah. Well, I think if you zoom out and then zoom out and then zoom out again, right? So a big thesis i've been working on for about a year and a half is like three revolutionary cycles that

are converging that are changing the world so we have a 250 year political revolution cycle every 250 years the world the pendulum swings from centralization and swings back to decentralization okay 250 years ago was the american revolution push back on the centralization of the monarchy set up a decentralized republic government 250 years before that protestant reformation so we have that on this cycle on an 80 year cycle there's a financial revolution cycle 80 years ago, Bretton Woods Agreement, etc. On a 50-year cycle, there's a technological revolution cycle every 50 years. There's been five of them. We're in the sixth one right now. So all three are converging right now. So that's like super high level. When you zoom in, you see that in real

life. So we have like this war of globalism right now, the WEF, Davos, Europe, right, ECB, etc. And so I think the world is breaking apart because of that, because it's on this time frame. And then, of course, it's being exaggerated, played out in real time with Russia, Ukraine, China, supply chains breaking down. This morning we saw India and a bunch of other countries are banning exports of food. So now countries are starting to hoard food, hoard precious metals, hoard commodities. And so it's starting to break apart really, really quick. Has there ever been a point in time where those three cycles, the 250-year, the 80-year, and the 50-year cycles all converged around the same time point? Yeah, back in, back at the Industrial Revolution in the late 1700s.

And so what was kind of your analysis of, okay, these three things converged, what happened then? Well, the world swings back to decentralization, right? So things start getting more and more centralized, central planners, right, more control, and then it starts breaking apart. So the last 250 years, we've been on the path to centralization. So we went from the Industrial revolution led to that right so in the before the industrial revolution it was agricultural society so people were just in the farms and cottage industry and that started bringing people into cities into factories then you had to be in the united states you had to be in new york you had to be in chicago right and so it led to that and now it's starting to swing back the other way so

we haven't really seen this for uh 250 years so put the technology piece aside for a second put the financial uh component aside what does that mean for an average person you know over the next 10, 20 years? Is it everyone's going to go live out in the woods and, you know, kind of be on their own? They already are. I mean, look what happened with COVID, right? Because COVID forced people to work from home. So now look at real estate in Colorado or Wyoming or Idaho. People always wanted to live there, but they never were able to. And now real estate there is blowing up because people can go live there now. But not just that. Now they're going into Cancun in Mexico. They're going to Florinopolis in Brazil, right? So now we're starting to see these areas starting

to blow up. So the world will continue to decentralize because people will be able to go live and work in those places. What is the financial impact across asset prices when something like this happens? Well, you said to remove the tech piece, but you can't because the technology is what always changes things. So when you look back through history, it's always technology that drives these. And so these technological revolutions, they're different than technologies. Technology is like an iPhone. I took a computer and a phone, put them together. That's cool. Technological revolution has two main components. One, it changes the course of humanity and it drives financial markets so there's been five industrial revolution steam engines and

railways steel and electricity oil automobiles and then 1971 the microprocessor which brought us personal computers telecommunications and the internet so those all changed the course of humanity i don't need to go through that but they also drove financial markets what's been the financial markets last 40 50 years telecom internet what was before that for gmge what was before that? Steel oil. So when you look at it from financial implications for most people, you can see how that's going to start changing. In the shorter term, how is it going to start changing? So as the world starts to break apart, which it already is, it's going to change a lot of things. So for example, just this morning and throughout the course of the week, but this

morning, Japan announced that they're backing off of their EV mandate. Germany announced with, I think three other European countries last week that they also as well. So the globalists, the European Union have these mandates to transition to EV vehicles, right? Like 100% by 2035. And now they're all backing off of this. So they're like, well, I guess this isn't gonna work.

We need 60 countries to get the minerals to make one EV vehicle. And now that countries aren't able to cooperate and a lot of these countries, like I said, are banning exports, I guess this transition probably isn't gonna be possible. So now we're starting to revise that. So when it comes to financial markets, when you're betting on things like EV transitions and booms like that, I think you have to be aware of that.

So when you start trying to analyze what's happening right now, there is a technology, there's a finance component to it, and then there's this decentralization component. I mean the elephant in the room is it sounds like Bitcoin is a huge piece of that. How do you kind of think through what is occurring in the moment right now? So you talked about a swing back towards decentralization. What is the technology revolution that's going to change the course of humanity? And what is the impact on financial markets then? Well, this is a piece that I talked about at this event I was at this weekend, George Gammon's event. Shout out to Rebel Capitalist.

What people are missing, and Lynn Alden put out a quote last week, to equate Bitcoin and crypto shows you don't understand either. And so I use that quote in my talk. and there's a technological revolution that's happening here but most people are blinded to it because of the crypto boom and bust that's been happening but there's actually a revolution that's happening

so for the first time ever we've created digital scarcity we've created true decentralization we've been able to now move into the information age without copying information which is like incredibly powerful now what does that mean

we don't really know when steel was invented it gave us a new material that we could build skyscrapers and bridges with it also gave us material we could build a space shuttle with But we didn't know that when steel came out, right? When electricity came out, the first application was a candle.

It was like a digital candle, but candles were light for 5,000 years. What do we need that for? But it gave us the building block to do what we're doing right now. And so we have a new set of building blocks. We don't know exactly what we built off of that. But I think it's a, you know, I would imagine you would agree, it's probably the best risk-adjusted investment that we could make right now if we're willing to wait.

So when you used the electricity example or the steel example, those were building blocks, as you mentioned. And in hindsight, we know that, okay, yes, the first applications were interesting, but they were really small compared to what eventually was possible. Is the revolution-driven or like the innovation the blockchain? Is it Bitcoin as an application of a blockchain? Like how do you think through? Because I immediately jumped like, okay, what would the critics say of the Bitcoin-only viewpoint? They're like, yes, of course, the blockchain is the innovation.

and then we're going to go put all these different applications and it's a building block and all that. How do you think through, is it actually the blockchain or is it the application of Bitcoin that ends up being the true innovation that serves as the foundation for whatever is to come? I believe that the true innovation is decentralization. Okay, interesting. So how do we achieve decentralization?

We achieve decentralization by instead of having one database, we have multiple databases. In order to achieve that, everyone must be able to run a database. So with Bitcoin, anyone in a third world country with a five-year-old laptop can download the database and run it but you can't do that with any other of the other whatever 19 000 coins and so the the innovation is decentralization and i believe there's only one that really gives us that it's not just decentralization though right it's like a technology coordinated decentralization that is operating uh like

my mind jumps to uh balashi srinivasan's whole idea of like you know these uh cloud-based economies right these cloud-based societies where uh really the decentralization is the ability to coordinate via technology across the world in a digital format i don't think that's it okay explain symbology is super smart by the way so shout out to him he's he's like a walking encyclopedia he's insane right um but i don't think that's it right i think what it really is is it's it's decentralization that makes it where nobody controls the ledger it's all about the ledger right if i have a coin um and i give you the coin you have the coin if i have the coin i have the coin but if we do it in an information age we need a ledger that shows who has the coin

now who controls the ledger that's the crux of the matter right so i think the oldest problem that mankind has had is how do i protect my property from being stolen so we make a tribe a village a kingdom a country but now if nobody can control the ledger then nobody can steal my asset and if i want to send it to you nobody can stop it block and prevent it so digital coordination is great don't get me wrong it's going to be massive for production and things like that and of course when we have this globalization we can all collaborate together then we can get more progress. That's awesome. That's great. But that doesn't prevent people from manipulating the ledger. Yeah, I think we're saying the exact same thing, which is

there's only one truly decentralized ledger today, right? In terms of the ability to know what I have is I have, and if I send it to you, no one can stop me, right? There's a lot that aspire to do that, claim to do it, whatever, but there's only one that is truly decentralized. When I was talking about this kind of like cloud economy or whatever, it's just now we have the in a digital format, if you think of Balaji's whole idea of like, there's going to be three currencies in the future. There's like the United States dollar, there's the Chinese, and then there's Bitcoin. Yeah. Right. And it's like one of those three ends up quote unquote winning. I think you and I both lean towards, well, the decentralized. And there'll be many,

there'll be many, right? I mean, think about the dollar took over the reserve currency of the world from the pound sterling, but that was a 40 year process, but the pound sterling is still being used today. It's really hard to kill currencies. Right. It's really hard to kill currency so i think i believe as the world moves to become more decentralized instead of the one one reserve currency of the world everyone's waiting for the final moment it's decentralized so maybe my reserve is different maybe micro strategies reserve is different maybe el salvador reserve is different but other people use other things so this is an interesting point so you think that as we move more and more towards a decentralized world it won't be one single global

reserve currency whether that's bitcoin or a fiat currency you think actually that there will be many reserve currencies and it's almost like choose your own adventure what is the currency that you need and which one do you choose as your reserve currency well which nation puts a hundred percent of their reserves in one asset today none none yeah they all use multiple reserves right so we saw russia what happened with russia they had their fx reserve seas which were multiple currencies not just one multiple currencies but they also had other assets commodities etc so no country puts a hundred percent of the reserves into one thing so i think we're looking at it from the wrong perspective by doing that.

The BIS put out this piece last week. I'm sure you saw it because I know you're all over the news. But the BIS put out this piece, and he talked about the soul of money. And he said the soul of money is based off trust. And for whatever centuries, we've trusted central bankers. First of all, money has no soul. But I do believe money is based off of trust. And I think what happened with Russia, Ukraine, and the world basically,

not just the U.S., but the world moving against Russia's FX Reserve was more profound than most people think because it was the death of trust. And if you've ever been in a relationship with a girlfriend, a partner, a wife, a business partner, whatever, when trust is lost, trust is lost. And I think the world just realized

that we can't trust whoever holds the ledger. Why do you think it was so profound? Explain more in detail in terms of like what you think the ramifications of all these financial sanctions against Russia are. Well, because as I said, we seized, we, whatever, the world, there was multiple currencies, but their FX reserves were seized, frozen.

And so that money was on this global ledger through the SWIFT system, the payment system, and it was just frozen and seized. And so how can we trust our money if it can just be taken away? Did you see the commentary from Vladimir Putin last week? It was translated, and I always caveat this with we have to accept it as a fact based on the information we have today. If somebody disproves it later or something – I don't speak Russian. Yeah, I don't speak Russian either. So I'm somewhat relying on the translations, but it was a fairly well-articulated, pretty honest assessment, and in it, I think you have to separate out who's saying it versus what's being said. And if you can do that, which is hard, but if you can do that, one of the things he talks about is this, which is why would any nation state go ahead and now increase their dependency or keep their dependency on a system which is dependent on the owners, the US or G7 nations or whatever?

continuing to be friendly to them, right? It's not only that it happened to Russia, I think to your point, it's every country in the world now is asking themselves, well, hold on a second here. We're cool today. Is there a world in the future where we're not cool? And even if I can't see that world,

maybe I don't want to bet on us still being cool in the future and I may do some things differently. Which brings us all the way back to the actual revolution, which is a decentralized ledger. So what he's saying is whoever controls the ledger has the power and it becomes a very political tool. And so we almost need a decentralized ledger that nobody can control, which is kind of what he was hinting at, I think. And I think, you know, Russia is one of three global superpowers with nuclear weapons.

So what chance do tier two, tier three nations have? None. None. None. Zero. How important is it that Russia's FX, it wasn't just sanctions. You cannot send this anywhere. So, for example, we just saw a G7 go ahead and ban Russian gold, right, gold from Russia. And they said, hey, we are not going to allow our countries to import this in.

And so I think of that as almost the transacting of the asset, but that doesn't mean that the United States or any of the other G7s took gold out of Russia, right? It's more so just we're going to keep it in your country and we're not going to do business on this specific transaction kind of rail. But also there was the seizing of FX reserves as well, and it's because Russia was keeping those reserves in other kind of custody, right, outside of their own self-custody. choice unless you print it out and put it in pallets in a bank this is gonna be my question is in the legacy world can you do self-custody in any kind of scalable uh way if you're a country with the types of assets and size that they have you can with gold but the problem is this is hard to move gold around so venezuela had gold but they were keeping it in the uk vaults but the uk seized two billion dollars worth of venezuela's gold so then it's like well shoot i guess i have to have

my gold in my country and so you start to see the problem that we have and it gets to this drug dealer moment where it's like give me the drugs no give me the money right and uh so it gets very difficult to do business that way i think uh uh yeah i think it just further proves like how do we move forward in a way where the world has global cooperation without the ability to pay on some sort of a rail that can't be seized what is the difference between how countries are going to think about this and kind of analyze where the world is going versus individuals or is it the same exact analysis well i think i think so now when we go back to adding the three cycles together we have the financial revolution cycle. And so I think what we're starting to see really quickly,

the world is being slapped in the face. This morning, Japan announced they're coming back off that EV mandate. What we're realizing really quickly is that in a world where we print unlimited amounts of fake fiat currency, people want to buy real hard things. So we have this commodity super cycle, right? We have this massive underinvestment into commodities. And now today, we have this massive shortage. And the central banks have found out very quickly, we can't print more energy or more food. And so the world's been slapped in this face. And so we're starting to see this kind of transition going back to that. And so I think that's kind of how the world is starting to be reshaped. And we're starting to see that real things are worth real, like real things,

right? And this feels like a continuation. If you go back to COVID, early on, I think Chamath Palapati, I talked with him. And one of the insights that he had almost immediately was, hey, the world, but specifically the United States has pursued efficiency to the extreme. Yeah. And we've ran around the world looking for this efficiency. And we found it. We found cheaper labor. We found a more efficient supply chains, a better manufacturer, all these different things. But in our pursuit of efficiency, we gave up the resilience that is necessary in moments like in COVID when you shut down the global economy, all of a sudden kind of the United States was exposed and we're like, damn, get those ships over here. Get those materials here. We need

to import certain things because we don't have the manufacturing or supply chain set up here in America. And it feels like what you're talking about is a very similar trend and almost as a continuation of what we saw back in 2020 yeah well it is right because these cycles they hit but it's not like like a season it's like summer starts on this exact day but really the weather kind of changes plus or minus a month or two so we're seeing a transition over this decade it's not like it happens on a certain day so for sure it's it's all part of this we've been transitioning for like the last seven years um so it's certainly part of that but um there's other things that play as well but as that continues to play out also part of it is the triffin's dilemma as i'm sure

you're aware, right, the nation has a reserve currency has to be a net exporter, right? So we have to export dollars to the world. So which means we had to offshore all of our manufacturing, but also, because all that money printing was so inflationary, then we also had to offset that inflation by cheap, you know, outsourcing, cheap labor, etc. But I think that all that's coming to a head, obviously, we can see it, right. And the nations that have the assets are going to be the ones that move forward in the next decade. One of the big critiques of deflationary systems, So Bitcoin obviously being one on a structural basis, but in general, deflationary systems, is that you will kill velocity of money and you will kill any sort of true economic growth. Now, I always say, okay, that's one argument.

There's another argument, which is, no, the loose monetary policy and the continued devaluation of a currency essentially is a financial incentive for people to get rid of the cash. So whether you invest or you consume, do it. And unfortunately, financial education is not very pervasive in the United States or elsewhere, and so most people, they consume rather than go and invest in any material way. And so because there are so many people with this cheap money that are sitting there ready to consume, it means that manufacturers could create less and less high-quality goods, and people are still willing to buy them. And so in some way, the devaluation of the currency and the loose monetary policy drove lower-quality goods being flushed into the system. if we were to start to adopt a deflationary system is it that the actual velocity of money would slow down or is it that people would only spend the money for the most high quality goods and in some way we would like wipe the the bad consumerism and return back to this like high

quality uh goods and service based economy these are super uh in-depth conversations to have and so you have to look at cost benefit analysis on a bunch of things so for example uh fiat uh safety and talks about fiat money fiat food and so in order to hide that inflation we've had to make food cheaper, cheaper, cheaper. We've substituted for worse and worse products. McDonald's used to make their fries with tallow, which was good for you. Now they make it with seed oils, which are very bad for you. And so in one of the pursuits of making things cheaper, now we're making ourselves more unhealthy. So now we're spending more on healthcare, right? And so there's a lot of cost benefit analysis there. But I think to your point about this inflation, or I'm sorry, the velocity

of money, they believe that we need to make people spend money because if we don't, they're going to hoard it. Really? I think people have no problem spending money. We all want more things, right? that's human greed so we don't need any help spending money we're already going to spend money but there's a conversation i had last night at the conference and i think a lot of people say that we need um without if we were on a fixed monetary system like bitcoin then there's no credit markets and without credit markets then the economy would expand very slow the velocity would slow down because now i can't go buy 10 houses i can't expand my business go buy 10 trucks if i don't have the loans and we don't know it's academic but maybe the story of the

tortoise or the hare and maybe the economy would grow slower but more steady and in a fiat money system we have more booms and busts and maybe over a period of time we end up ahead i um this i hate to admit this because people will laugh but uh yesterday i was actually watching a speech from peter lynch uh who ran the magellan fund at fidelity for you know however many years uh and he gave it i don't know probably two decades ago it seems like based on the quality of the video uh to uh i think it was the washington press club or something like that and in it he talks about uh you know look investing is really not that hard uh corporate profits go up about eight percent a year and the stock market goes up about eight percent a year and like the entire point of

investing is if you buy something today and it's still around 20 years from now and it goes up about eight percent in terms of corporate profits like the the math would suggest that this is also going to go about eight percent a year and when you start to look at that you're like yes maybe 20 or 30 years ago that was 100 true but that's not what we were seeing for the last two years uh, in this loose monetary policy. So in some way, the intervention into the market ended up really diluting what many people would have thought is like the traditional signals of value or value, uh, accrual, right? How do you think about asset markets or asset prices when there is this kind of manipulation of the market and not necessarily in a nefarious, um, uh, pursuit

as much as just like, we feel as humans, we have to do something. So we're in control. So let's intervene every time there's, you know, a bad time. And then that ends up, you know, creating these kind of asset bubbles, if you will. Yeah. Preston Push put up a chart yesterday that showed central bank balance sheets and the S&P 500. And I mean, they just move in lockstep, right? And so if you want to look at all the world markets and then break them down into US dollar value and then break out the monetary issuance or expansion, then you see that we haven't actually gone up that much. So I think it's pretty evident that the central bank balance sheets have a lot to do with these markets and these asset prices. And then at the end of the

day, I think most people don't really understand the crux of the matter. And the crux of the matter is that we need food, we need energy, we need goods and services, wealth is goods and services, wealth is not money. And so what happens is we get caught up in the US dollar valuation of the stock. So he says it's going up by 8% a year, my stocks go up by 8%, that's great. But what we really want is we want our money to buy us more goods and services in the future. We want our costs are, you know, we want we want to be able to buy more things for doing less work. And so if our asset prices are only going up with the cost of inflation or the rise of the price of inflation then we're not getting any more purchasing power so really not any better off

in u.s dollar terms oh my house is worth more my stocks are worth more but if i sell my house at this inflated value i can only go buy the same exact house so i haven't gained any purchasing power and the idea is something like bitcoin obviously is different than that well it could be it could be and one thing i would say about bitcoin is a lot of a lot of critics i was the only only bitcoin person at this event so i have to deal with this all weekend but a lot of people a lot of people expect it to be what it's what it could be in the future they expect it to be that today if we were walking through the forest and here's a little oak tree this big i'm like hey palm check this oak tree out can you imagine this little thing's gonna be giant one day and you're

like no way look how small i think it'll never be big it's like no it's an oak tree it will be no it can never be right and so like bitcoin's on an evolution path uh right now it's volatile right if you live in a third world country and you're trying to use bitcoin every day and you're trying to you know put your money for food in that like it's volatile and that could be dangerous which, you know, maybe a lot of people think CB, or not CBDCs, but stable coins could work in conjunction with Bitcoin in some of these countries. And so it's not the best, it's not the most stable currency today. So all these critics want to say it's not a good currency. Well, it's probably not today because it's super volatile, but it has been a good store value

if you can zoom out and look over a long period of time. So is it the best store value over the last six months? No, it's up 20% in the last seven days. It's down 65% in the last eight months, but it's also up 450% in the last 24 months. So it depends on what kind of time frame. So if you want to, it's on its path to becoming a store of value. And then eventually I think you can move on to a medium of exchange.

In your recent presentation, you talked about the idea of Bitcoin, not so much a blockchain as much as a time chain, which is a very unique concept. Explain what this means, time chain, not blockchain. So in Satoshi's white paper, he never used the word blockchain. And so, and you mentioned earlier

is blockchain the revolution. And I'm guilty of that. I got into Bitcoin in 2015. In 2016, I started writing a cryptocurrency newsletter. And from 2016 to 2019, I published 1,000 pages of research on cryptocurrencies. And I was like, hey, it's blockchain. It's not Bitcoin. So I was guilty.

But after publishing 1,000 pages of research, I was like, nope, that's not it. But back to the time chain. In the white paper, he used the word time chain. And Gigi put out this article how time is money, but money is time. And so time has an order of things. And so basically the time chain keeps order, keeps time of these blocks being added one time after another. And the importance of that back to this revolution, it gives us this new ledger that keeps track

of time and we can do all types of things that we don't know. So in a good example, as a consensus two weeks ago, I was down there in Austin and they announced Dorsey announced web five, like it's whatever it's a meme for web four. It's a meme, right? But, but what they introduced is with these DIDs, right? So Daniel Burr has been working with Ion Microsoft right now, these DIDs, and these decentralized identifiers where I can control my ID, my data. Instead of having to log in with Facebook or Google, I can now keep my ID, right? And they use the Bitcoin blockchain to put that hash in to keep that record.

So now we have this decentralized ledger that nobody can control, and we can use it for things like a DID that we wouldn't be able to do that before. If we put it into another chain, that could be hacked or manipulated or whatever. So we're starting to see how this time chain can be used for other types of things like this DID. And when you think of the time chain, one of the kind of nice things on Twitter that I've seen, which every time I see it, it just makes me smile even though I know what they're doing, is a number of people I've seen recently announce the birth of their child. And rather than say kind of the historic or historical, on this date, at this time, the baby was born, this, whatever, they just put what is the block? I haven't seen that. Oh, yeah, yeah. what what basically what block was you know what block your baby's on i do i do not uh to be honest

with my first child i was just making sure that the baby was there oh my wife was good all that but uh when i saw you know people started to do this over the last couple of months i was like man that is so cool because now all of a sudden it's not like oh on uh june 4th at 11 03 uh p.m uh you know eastern time and you're like okay gmt to est like you just get rid of all that and it's Just here is the actual block in which this occurred and that block is the same across the world, right? Which goes back to this idea of a time chain. And if you could almost standardize time,

not based on some sort of geography, which we have today with time zones, but instead you can actually have a globally agreeable time, it's pretty powerful. Yeah, because if you think about who keeps the ledger, so if we were both using the same bank account, we both had debit cards and we're in different parts of the world.

so you run a transaction i run a transaction and then that ledger is trying to reconcile that but to your point we're in different time zones so which transaction came in first you're a day ahead of me a day behind me etc and so it creates that problem and again it's a building block we don't know what can be built on top of it but i hadn't really thought of that but i think it's a great illustration what's the craziest thing you think is possible right obviously understand this is a building block and we can only see so far into the future it's super foggy when you look too far but like what is the thing that you're like you know what i do think that this will happen? What I think happens more than anything is changing the incentive structures of the world.

In Bitcoin Miami, Breedlove had a good conversation with Jordan Peterson, and they talked about how if everybody's playing the game, everybody's playing together and everyone's productive because everyone's enjoying playing the game and they're all working together. But if half the people had to step out of the game to enforce the remaining half to play the game, you've lost productivity because now half the people have to force the other people. But also when they're forcing the other half of the people they don't really want to play anymore so their productivity goes down and that's kind of the environment that we're in today so imagine if we change the incentive structure to where everybody can play the game together how much better the world could

be we have a fight a fiat money system that's losing value so we used to be able to save money and dollars today we used to we've uh we've had progress because the specialization of labor right so if i could be the best brain surgeon i could be maybe i could change the world but today i have to be half brain surgeon half investor yeah i talk all the time about uh we ask teachers to go be the best teachers in the world go be the best accountant go be the best marketing manager whatever and then oh by the way nights and weekends like become a great investor so you protect your purchasing power yeah like that so we've lost massive mind share so i i look at how much different could the world be if everybody was providing value as far as what technologies

could be built it's very difficult humans are horrible at imagining the future we imagine better versions of today we have cars we'll fly in cars so if you look at uh books of the future from 50, 60 years ago, they envisioned us teleporting and spaceships. We didn't do that. They didn't envision, you know, iPhones and things like that. So it's very difficult to say. Do you think that the innovation on top of Bitcoin will come from the Bitcoin community? Or do you think it'll be an outsiders who are looking for some technology and realize they can use Bitcoin, but they aren't necessarily quote unquote Bitcoiners in terms of as they create the innovation? Probably eventually non Bitcoiners, right? So I think what happens is I look at it like a TCP IP

protocol. And there's trillions of applications built on one protocol. And now we have a Bitcoin protocol. And I believe there will be trillions of applications built on top of the Bitcoin protocol eventually. Like this Taro, for example, seems like a pretty cool option where we could maybe launch other tokens on top of that. A lot of Bitcoiners aren't super happy about that. But I think about one of the big revolutions is keeping property in a way that can't be stolen for me. And if I want to send it to you, nobody can censor that, right? So think about before the internet, how did you have stocks? You had stock certificates. They were pieces of paper that would keep him safe. And if I had the stock certificate, a bear instrument or a bond right

out of that bear instrument, and almost if you could put assets back into bear instruments where I could hold them and we could exchange them freely. So I think that's probably a big innovation that could happen. And I think we'll start to see a lot of stuff come on that aren't Bitcoiners. Eventually, you know, they'll just be building companies. I was investing in the early days of the dot com in the late 90s. And I remember at the time I was young, just started my investing career, my roommate quit his job. And we're trading these things called internet stocks. everyone thought we were crazy they never heard of these things but today there's no such thing as internet stocks they're just companies yeah uh last thing i want to talk about is uh tarot i

think it's a really interesting way to kind of apply a thought process as to where this could be going uh so for those that don't know you have bitcoin layer one uh we then get layer two on top of that trying to make it more scalable cheaper uh faster uh which is lightning network and now there's this idea uh from lightning labs they put forward called tarot and the idea is that you would be able to create all sorts of different assets on top of and tie into eventually the layer one of, of Bitcoin via a decentralized ledger. Correct. And so when you think about that is if the world does move to a fully digital world, which seems to be the, the overarching trend over the last couple of, uh, of decades and centuries, even is it one ledger or do we

end up getting multiple ledgers? And really it gets at this point of like the Bitcoiners that are upset or don't like the idea of tarot, is it because they don't believe that other assets will become digital and need a decentralized ledger? Like why are they not as excited about it maybe as the people who are working on it? Well, a lot of people believe that we don't need a bunch of tokens. We need one. And I would agree in a sense, right? So we need one money. We don't need a bunch of money. So you talk about business, obviously the best business show. And part of a business is to reduce friction. Yes. You want to reduce friction as much as possible. I might have 15 minutes to kill and there's Dave and Busters and I might want to play a couple of

video games. But I don't want to go stand in line and have to convert my dollars into the stupid tokens. And I don't. So there's friction. I won't even play. Right. So we want to reduce friction. I could see they're having one money, but there are other assets. We're going to continue to have businesses. People are still going to want to invest into businesses like we're still going to have other assets. I don't see that going away. So the ability to own those assets, whatever they may be, shares of a real estate property, shares of a company. I could see those other assets needing a way to own them and hold them and have custody of them. And so I think having tokens as a way to do that it's so fascinating because uh i've used the example

in the past of uh why do people invest to get more dollars right if you're in the united states and so your whole idea is i'm gonna take dollars i'm gonna put it in some other asset that is going to outpace uh the growth or decline of the dollars and then when i sell i will get more dollars uh in the bitcoin world there's a lot of folks who think of it as i'm gonna take my dollars i'm gonna convert it to bitcoin this decentralized digital currency and i'm gonna hold that but it's hard for me not to see a world where there's people who say okay i have bitcoin and i have three bitcoin i'm going to invest so that something outpaces and then i get five bitcoin yeah and if bitcoin becomes your reserve currency uh then naturally you're going to want more and more of it and that

would be a metric for gaining wealth i think the critique of that viewpoint is what's going to outpace you know bitcoin's 125 compounding growth rate of last decade and so how do you think about that like is it that the compound annual growth rate will go down over time and eventually you'll have to invest to get more or like what do you think yeah of course of course it does you can't keep going up like that right at that rate forever i go back to history so how did it work on a gold standard people saved gold they consumed less than they earned and they lent it out right and the rich people would lean lend to the kings and the governments right go back and watch game of thrones right so the rich people are loaning money out so people um earn less than they consume and then

they loan it back out and so people always do that obviously at some point uh you know we're gonna have to see that the uh the rate of of increase is going to go down but i just go back to that history shows us how it works and people are always going to want to lend for more yield and to increase what they have and we're going to need economic growth people are still going to have ideas to create new products and new things and they're going to need startup capital to do that and people are still going to be willing to lend money for that yeah where can we send people to find you on the internet i feel like more people need to hear your ideas and kind of your thoughts yeah i think just go uh just on twitter at one mark moss the number one or just uh at

one mark moss.com i have links to everything on there i do a couple hours a week on iheart radio nationally syndicated radio show and the podcast and my youtube channel and on and on and on um i just dropped the link in the chat for anyone who wants to uh go follow him uh last question actually is um you always seem to be very high energy similar to me i try to be high energy all time one of our sponsors is eight sleep i sleep on the eight sleep mattress love it what's your sleep schedule i see you have coffee so what's your caffeine schedule and how do you keep high energy throughout the day so um i haven't tried that mattress i got a sleep number bed and i've been sleeping in a hotel i can't wait to get back onto my bed uh about eight years ago i read tim

ferris's book tools of titans and he talked about this uh this state that some people get in where this fog lifts off their brain into this crystal clear thinking i was like oh i want that and it comes through fasting and then you have ketones start going through your body and you get that and so i was like all right i'll skip breakfast i'll do an 18 hour fast every day uh but i love breakfast i don't know if i can do it i can do it for two weeks i'll commit to two weeks and if i you know we'll see what happens and that was eight years ago and i still do it every day so i do have some coffee but i don't eat i still do about an 18 hour fast every day what time do you eat for the first time i usually eat about two o'clock two two or three o'clock so like two to eight

o'clock or two to eight usually like a six hour window got it and then maybe twice a month i do like a 24 so i don't eat uh breakfast either do you eat more the bigger meal uh the first one or the last one uh usually the first one the first lunch would be a really big meal yeah yeah and then you get a smaller meal uh for dinner i think that that's the only way to do it or i get too hungry and then i start eating crazy shit yeah because uh i'm waiting for dinner yeah so i think that's what really gives me the energy it gives me that clear focus that i was after and um it makes it easy too because i don't have to think about what i'm going to eat every morning yeah Yeah. Relentless. Yeah. That's the whole key. Yeah, exactly. All right, man. Listen,

thank you so much for taking the time to do this. Uh, and we'll definitely have to get you on here more often because you've got a number of ideas that people would really benefit from. Yeah. Thank you. Awesome. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you guys enjoyed this one. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to try to transition to get a new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to palmscryptocourse.com. We've developed a curriculum with the top teams across the industry. It's a three-week intensive training program

with over 50 events packed into that three-week time period. Go to palmscryptocourse.com to learn more and I'll meet you guys for the next episode.