The Pomp Podcast - #1044 Brandon Wurz Explains The Current Reality Of The Construction Industry

Episode Date: July 12, 2022

Brandon Wurz is the Founder of Renovation Capital. In this conversation, Brandon helps to inform us of what's actually happening in home construction. From the rising prices of materials to time of delivery, this episode will give you all of the info you need to know about this sector of the economy during a market downturn. ======================= LMAX Digital - the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading & custodial services - offers clients a regulated, transparent and secure trading environment, together with the deepest pool of crypto liquidity. LMAX Digital is also a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading analytics platforms. LMAX Digital - secure, liquid, trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp ======================= The Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. Go to https://www.eightsleep.com/Pomp to check out the Pod Pro Cover and save $150 at checkout. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, and the UK. ======================= 

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Brandon Wurz is the founder of Renovation Capital. In this conversation, we talk about the current state of the real estate market. We break down a hypothetical deal. We talk about his military experience and also how important the internet is to a business like his. I really enjoyed this conversation with Brandon, and I hope you guys enjoy it as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I first want to talk about our sponsors. First up is LMAX Digital, the number one institutional crypto exchange. They offer

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Anthony Pompliano runs POMP Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Brandon, how are you, my friend? I'm good. How are you, sir? Thanks for having me on. Dude, I'm super excited about this. Let's start first with the state of the real estate market. Uh, it feels like, uh, things were real hot, real exciting. Uh, everyone was, uh, was pumped.

We were all going to get rich and everyone's going to become a real estate gazillionaire. Maybe not so much anymore. What are you seeing out there? I mean, interest rates have moved pretty quick, pretty fast or pretty high, pretty fast. Um, and it's kind of put the brakes on just about, you know, everything, um, you know, it makes it hard for, you know, what was a, you know, probably a pretty attractive deal to pencil as much as you good. And I think folks at this point, buyers want a little more of a price discount than most sellers want to give up. And it feels like right now it's a summertime lull where both buyers and sellers are just kind of putting pencils down unless there's a real need to sell. Everybody's

just kind of hanging around until the fall, see what the Fed does and see how interest rates change. For you personally, talk a little bit about the market you're focused on, residential versus commercial, and kind of how you think about the real estate market and where you see the biggest opportunities, uh, for you to focus on? Uh, for us, you know, we like to play in the residential and commercial space, but we are strictly housing providers, you know, single family housing, multifamily housing. Um, we like to play in the kind of workforce, uh, slash affordable housing space. Um, you call it night, you know, we're, we're, we're focused specifically to DFW and surrounding markets. Um, you know, typically kind of 1960s to 1980s, 1990s type

construction um very unloved you know not not super sexy um it's just kind of sitting there and and you know it just kind of looks old and and un unmanaged and and we want to come in and you know make it better the problem is that the average landlord especially in the smaller you know call it sub 10 million dollar uh purchase space is not to save this for all of them or to you know, to whitewash this whole thing, but, um, the average landlord just kind of tries to expect, you know, they want to, you know, take as much out, um, that they, you know, that they can without, um, you know, without hurting their returns. Right. And so we, we want to make, we want to make our deals. Uh, we want to make our deals nice. We want to make them nice places

to live that folks want to stay in. And so when you think about, uh, kind of that housing market, you do a bunch of remodeling, maybe talk a little bit about what that type of business looks like right now. Um, and kind of why are you so focused on the remodeling aspect versus maybe just more of like financial engineering and the assets you buy? It's a little of both actually. So I, you know, we, we got our start, our team with a general contractor based out of Dallas called Defiant Remodeling. That's, you know, it was where we really got our start, you know, working on homes here in town. And we kind of leveraged that to, you know, to, to be call it a vertically integrated, you know, asset manager where we could do our own construction. And we knew that

we could deliver stuff on budget with a good value. But given our finance backgrounds, working for hedge funds, working for different real estate firms, we can use that financial engineering as well. It's a little of both. The best part really, I think, with our construction background is more not that we can take on ugly or tough projects. It's more that we know what to pass on and we can see what those prior owners did and didn't do and how much it'll actually cost us. But as far as the construction market itself, as of today, you know, as everyone can, you know, attest to, it's challenged. Getting supplies in, cost overruns, it's just kind of one thing after another. Unfortunately, labor is pretty tough. You know, DFW or Texas is, you know, obviously got

some tailwinds, but things are tough, to put it mildly. Talk to me about the actual materials first. We saw lumber prices explode a couple months ago, seemed to have come down a little bit, but obviously there's other, uh, materials. Uh, those prices have been quite volatile as well. What are you seeing on the ground when it comes to the construction materials that are needed? Oh, I mean, the biggest challenge that we have right now is like paint, for example. Um, like I've spent, I've had guys, uh, or, you know, my, you know, my workers going for projects, they're searching for paint, you know, two or three different days just to find paint for projects. Um, Sherwin Williams, you know, is out of, of semi-gloss paint, um, in our little market

for like a week um and so we just can't work right so the guy's got to go figure out something out we got to go find something else for them to do or or whatnot it's more of a you know we're able to pass on some of those costs to some of those cost overruns to our you know our customers um but at the end of the day it's it's still tough it's tough to find stuff why is paint uh so hard to find right now what is going on there i would imagine there's again i'm not the you know the expert on this but i would imagine there's a lot of additives and um a lot of some of a lot of that's coming out of those, you know, those, um, the colors and stuff are coming over from China, kind of overseas. Um, and it's, it's just hard to get those products right now with the supply

chain backlog. Got it. And then what about other lead times for things like lumber or windows or doors or, or kind of any of the materials that you would need? What are those lead times look like right now compared to where they were, you know, maybe pre pandemic? Um, we were, we used to be able to get windows, you know, in probably two to four weeks out, um, from, you know going to measure now it's you know depending on the type of window it's six months um for me to get a you know a piece of shower glass like to you know to do a frameless shower um used to be call it five business days now we're talking three weeks at least from just to create it and all we're doing is you know cutting sheets of glass throwing in a you know a metal hanger on

it and calling it a day um it's the lead time everything has drastically gone out um and it doesn't seem to be getting any better at least at the time um and part of that is simply because we're in tfw with you know such a hot market right everybody wants to move here everybody's spending money um maybe it's different in other markets but for us it's very supply challenged got it and then when you start to think about uh labor you mentioned earlier that that's been a difficulty as well talk to me about what you've seen there both in terms of pay but also the availability of various workers yeah the availability has been challenged right it's it helps you know we we've got a good leg and that you know we've got we've got groups with you know

we've got a good bench um that we've spent years developing um so we've got a you know a decent labor force but it's guys that you know they've got you know stimulus money you know they've gotten all these inflows to the economy you know my electricians are talking we're talking at one point about bitcoin right um they loved it um you know they're like hey i'm gonna be rich off this you know now it's folks are coming back to the fold starting to work again but for a little while you know guys were just like i'm doing really well over here on this thing i don't need to go to work today. And, you know, you, we have a plan that requires them to be there or, you know, a schedule that requires them to be there. Um, and it makes it tough. Um, like I said,

it's getting a little better. And when you start to think about the types of projects, are you seeing people slow down, uh, their demand for new construction or for renovations? Uh, just given that we have kind of tighter monetary policy and, and all of that starting to happen. I think the new build for sure. Um, cause that does have a huge, you know, interest rates have a huge play there, right? If you're, you know, you go under contract for a new build, you're still a couple months out from getting delivered. So you really don't know, you know, where your rate is going to be, where everything is going to be. But for remodels, I think it's actually a great tailwind for us in the current market, just because, you know, it makes, you know, houses

are so unaffordable, nobody can move. So you're kind of stuck staying in the house that you're in and, you know, you want to make a nice, you know, some of the work from home tailwinds have kind of dropped off. But folks, you know, there's all this, you know, all this money coming in from California, all these, you know, all the migratory trends, um, folks are just buying what they can get and knowing that they'll fix it up later. And it's a, it's a good tailwind for us. And then when you see, um, kind of how people are actually thinking about the renovations themselves, you, uh, mentioned earlier that you're vertically integrated. So you have a renovation business and now you're starting to do more on the asset management side. Talk about how

those two businesses kind of work together and why pursue a real estate investment strategy that requires the renovation? Um, it's, you know, it's something that we're good at in that, you know, we, we look at things in a much different way than, you know, than anyone else. Right. Um, I look at an asset and I see, you know, what it's going to cost me. Right. And I know pretty quickly, um, you know, you know, like I said, what, what it's going to cost, what it's going to take to get it done, if it's too much or it's not enough. Um, it's, you know, when we, like I said, when we started out, we were redoing kitchens and bathrooms, right. And we were doing it, we we were making great spreads and everybody was happy. And, you know,

just knowing that we wanted to be more in a real estate, we'd already owned our own rentals and want to continue that business. I think the scale that both of these businesses combined provides me is I can go buy stuff in bulk. I can buy all my mortar, lumber, hardy board, even some kind of tile, my materials in bulk and spread my cost allocation across all of my projects. Right. Not to, not to say to take advantage of everybody, but you know, we're able to, you know, I could buy a pallet of subway tile, um, you know, one full pallet and I

can divvy it up across all my different projects. And now I've saved, you know, 10, 15% on that cost of, uh, of the pallet. Cause I bought it in bulk, um, same with mortar, et cetera. So we're able to spread all of our costs across the full spectrum. And when you start looking at those types of opportunities, like walk me through kind of a hypothetical deal, right? Like what, what makes something a great opportunity, uh, that you all would say, you know, we see this, We want to go and capitalize on it. How do you kind of evaluate what those deals look like that check the boxes? First and foremost is looking at where rents are and where market rents should be, right?

If the deal is already at market rents and it needs a lot of construction, it's obviously a pass for us because what's the point of spending all the construction, all the brain damage of construction if we can't even get any rent bump out of it? We'd like to see something that's definitely trailing market rents. And it's like I said, it's got a lot of classic interiors where it's just sat there. Most of the time in these kind of 60s, 70s, 80s type products, there hasn't really been a huge value-add approach, especially in the 1960s stuff. Because it's just old and it's, you know, it's that tenant base has kind of felt unloved and untaken care of for a long time. And if that answers your question.

And then when you start thinking about those specific opportunities, how do you evaluate where you should do renovations and like the value that will accrue to the property versus maybe things that you could do, but they actually won't drive kind of future value, uh, either as an investment, uh, or a potential sale of the asset. That's a great question. Um, there's things like, you know, the sewer lines, pipes, stuff underneath that don't really provide a direct, you know, direct rent bump. Um, it's a case by case basis, obviously, you know, you know, replacing sewer lines, replacing plumbing underneath is a huge expense. And we really only want to do that if we really have to. Uh, but there are, there is other good dollars that I should have hit on a little bit ago is, um, as you're, you know, the majority of these properties, especially the ones

we look at are all bills paid, right. Um, the tenants are, you know, either can't qualify on their own for you, the utilities, or they're just, you know, it's kind of more of a transient type style. Um, where, you know, these, these properties, like I said, have been sitting there over time, these, you know, these, the materials wear out the pipes, et cetera, wear out. So there starts to be leaks, there starts to be damage. We go in on day one and, you know, we bring our plumber, you know, our plumber, all the team in, um, and we figure out where we're spending money, uh, or, you know, where the property is losing money. We can go, if we can get, if I can go shut off any leaks to the property, if I can do water conservation, I can, I can make

an immediate direct hit to the bottom line, um, of NOI, uh, or, you know, of the income to the property just by cutting out those expenses because we're all bills paid. Got it. And then when we start to think about the actual real estate market today, um, when you look at, uh, kind of the business of investing plus renovating, how much time is spent on underwriting the renovations and that component of an investment versus the actual, just like, if you buy an asset at a great price,

that ends up driving majority of the return? That's a great question. And it really depends. You know, there isn't a clear answer. Not to say that there isn't a clear answer there, but it really, it's a case-by-case basis, right? If maybe we have an asset or if we're looking at an asset

that's right next to another apartment complex that we own or within a few minutes, you know, we might, we might wait one, you know, wait one heavily over the other. Um, it's just, it's about proximity. It really just depends on kind of the asset itself. If that makes sense. Got it. What's something that you see on a day-to-day basis that would shock people right now about the construction or real estate market that you're just like, man, I can't believe people don't realize this. And if they knew this, they would go and run and tell everyone and, you know, sound the alarms. Uh, I don't want to share the secret sauce. I think the one thing that i've taken away kind of the last couple years of doing of doing this is is

really the way that the majority of these landlords treat their tenants um you know leaving not making you know kind of basic repairs you know fixing leaks fixing runny toilets um because all of that contributes to a direct cost to the tenant whether you know the tenant acknowledges it or not because they're breathing in mold they're breathing in all these hazardous materials and most of the landlords just don't acknowledge it. Um, I think just from a financial engineering, there's a huge, you know, if we go, you know, if you can, if you can find your value add, you can find that thing that really makes you special. Um, you can repeat and it's repeatable. You can, you know, you can, you can have a great career doing that stuff. Yeah. Uh, you were previously in the military,

talk a little bit about your military experience and kind of, uh, what you took from that experience as you've gone on to build businesses and now investing as well. Um, you know, I started in the army right out of high school i had my you know first kid in high school um um you know i had the second one by the time i was 21 even turned 21 overseas in iraq um i think the biggest thing that i took out of it was that you know the the buck stops here right like we we as the own you know we as the owners the leaders you know we are here to set a standard and if we can't set that standard for ourselves uh how how in the world can we expect our employees to follow that standard Right. It's up to us to to create the vision of the world as we see fit as the business owner or as the investor, the allocator, the sponsor.

You know, we have to we have to manifest that that belief into the world. And it takes a certain kind of person to do that. It takes a certain kind of personality to be able to get others to rally around your cause. Right. Even if they don't, you know, maybe they're financially motivated. It's a little different for you and I. Right. The military, very obvious cause here. It's like, you know, they're getting, you know, employees are getting a paycheck. How do you motivate them to, um, how do you motivate them to, to, to believe in the mission of creating better housing or creating beautiful kitchens or whatever that is. Um, and I think it's just being a servant leader. Um, it's being, you know, there for your employees, there for them, there for your

families, um, and everything that, you know, kind of falls into place there. When you start to think about, uh, kind of that leadership component, is there things that you would suggest to people if they want to become a better leader or they want to learn some of those principles that you're like, man, if you do, you know, one or two things, whether it's read a book or go and learn from somebody, like what would your suggestion be to become a better leader for people who maybe don't have all the training that they would get in the military? I would just say it becomes like, you know, thinking about your choices that you make on a day-to-day basis, think about your interactions with people. Are you setting a good

standard? Are you, you know, is that where you just say, ah, what deal is tomorrow? Ah, that's not my problem. There is no, you know, in this as a leader, it's not, it's not just, it's, this is not my problem. This is, you know, who's going to fix it. How do we fix it? Who do we need to talk to, to make this happen? You can't just, just check out and walk away just because it's not your problem, right? You're the, you're the owner, you're the sponsor, you know, whoever you are or whatever your role is, you can make a difference in everybody's life, right? You don't have to be the boss. You don't have to be the owner. You can make a real difference in the world. It's just looking at your own choices and your own behavior and just how you respond to

situations. It's the biggest thing. You don't have to spend any money to buy a book. It's just, you know, how did I respond to that person? Have I inspired good leadership or have I, have I inspired them in a good way? Yes or no. When you start to think about your personal life, uh, you mentioned you turned 21, uh, in Iraq. I actually did the exact same thing. And one thing I always credit to, uh, kind of my career trajectory was, uh, in some ways having to take on more responsibility, uh, and kind of the quote unquote more serious part of life early on, uh, just made me focus, right? Obviously if you had a child, uh, in high school, the military, all these different things like talk through a little bit about how those experiences like what

did you change you know maybe before that to afterwards that you think you could point back to and say hey this was a key point uh or an inflection point to my success um i this is a little bit of cop out um but i would say that you know my family and the support system that i had around me you know my wife my kids those people or those folks you know my parents um made it possible for me to do the things that i do every day i don't think it was a purposeful choice as opposed to it was like i'm 18 and i gotta figure out how to put food on the table for this baby or you know keep the lights on or figure out for my soldiers what we're doing um it just kind of the choices just kind of happened and they you know the the choices were put in front of me and i got

lucky enough to pick the right answers um sometimes i did you know sometimes i made the wrong choices or you know what you know what have you but because of those people i got very lucky i was put in the right situations and like i said i got i got lucky i was very blessed and when you start to look at um kind of that military experience uh and then the work that you do today how much of it is just you get up and you just go to work every day and kind of get through the day do the most important things like talk a little bit of like the grind uh i imagine uh the construction business i know the investment business and also the military uh there is this element of it's just a grind day in and day out for long periods of time talk about that a little bit yeah it is

there's days where you just you and i'm sure you you know share this thought very well um that you know you wake up um you know you you wake up you're like fuck i don't want to go to work today i don't want to go deal with this i don't want to go deal with this employee i don't want to deal with this customer false motivation is better than no motivation right um just put a smile on your face you know that customer's paying you money that you know that that boss whoever it is, you know, they've paid you to be there. It is on you at that point to, you know, just to show up and do what they expect, whether you want to or not. You've signed up, you know, you signed on the dotted line, whether it was that you're going to fix their house, you're going to fix whatever

it is, you got to show up and deliver. It doesn't really matter. What are some of the things that you're dealing with right now in terms of those employees and their reliance on you, you know, as we prepare for potentially a recession or some sort of bad economic environment? Is there anything that you're talking to them about or doing, uh, to help them prepare? We're trying to do whatever we can to be in a cash management, you know, cash management mode. Um, not to, you know, not to use the cliche that this is a, you know, like in startups where this is, you know, we're, we're in a wartime economy, but this absolutely is for us. Um, it's, it's very tough in that, you know, one, one misstep, um, on a project can, you know, cost us $10,000 for $5,000.

We have to be prepared for that where it was, you know, before like the economy was a little more forgiving, you know, we could go on to the next project or, or, or what have you. Uh, but here it's, you know, we have to make sure that, you know, all of our, you know, we, as the owners have to make sure that our, uh, our, our, our eyes are dotted and T's crossed to, um, to deliver every day. We're trying to tell the guys, you know, Hey, um, the economy is a little tougher out there, right? You need to be prepared. You need to, um, you know, if they're, they're obviously our adults or they're all adults, but you know, we can, we can at least say, you know, Hey, here's what we're seeing. Here's what, you know, how we feel about things right now. We are going to do

everything we can to take care of and provide for you. We have work, you know, we have, we want you to continue to be here, but you need to be prepared for the coming challenges. And we're, you know, we're giving, you know, we're giving raises, we're giving, you know, we're trying to give little bonuses. We're trying to help take care of the guys just given, you know, it hits them almost directly, right. Fuel costs, et cetera. But we, you know, we, we tell them what we can and when we can and then when i think that you know going back to the military point of just being honest sorry to interrupt but you know just being honest and just telling folks what you see even if there's nothing that you can do about it just like hey i i think they understand like hey

here is here's the boss he's trying to he's trying to look out for us even if he can't do anything about it um he's still trying to make it easier on us and protect us and then when you think just psychologically as a business owner like what what caused you to go in and switch mindset to say hey we may be in a wartime economy now, like we really got to kind of focus and step on the gas. Was it just the Federal Reserve and kind of their commentary around quantitative tightening and tighter financial conditions? Or were there other things that kind of pushed you in that way from a psychological standpoint? It's really just the market, right? Is, you know, we're what, three, four months ago, we could, you know, you could buy a house, you could buy an apartment

complex with 4% debt. And here now, it's depending on what you're looking at, you're talking over six, over 7%, right? Just again, it depends on what it is, what kind of product it is. But it really just, you could see with the demand destruction from the Fed, it's going to hit, right? It's, you know, it's how bad is it going to hit? And folks need to be prepared for that. We've had lenders come out and tell us, you know, hey, banks are stepping back. You need to be prepared to make capital calls. You need to be prepared to work with your investors through these projects, not specifically the banks. Don't just assume the banks are going to be there. So we at that point, you know, say, hey, the lesson I took from 08, you know, the crash was, you know, the economy really took the hit when the credit market stopped. Once folks stopped lending, that was when it all really shut down. And that's kind of what I see at this point is if we continue to destroy the demand, at some point, the credit markets will just stop and people can't do new projects and then it all kind of will stop. So we want to be as prepared as we can and putting cash in the balance sheet.

Yeah. As you start to do more on the investing side, talk a little bit about the asset management firm that you're building and kind of what the opportunity there is that you see. So I love the, you know, cut up, let's call it sub institutional space, call it sub $10 million purchase price, because the average, the average owner, the average, the average person that we're competing against is mom and pop landlord, or they're a real estate professional, whether, you know, a million bucks in their pocket to go buy a $3 million, $4 million deal. We think that we can, you know, provide or we can take our institutional knowledge and, you know, bring it to bear on this sub-institutional asset across, you know, we don't really want to be in property management for the time being. It's not the best, you know, best use of our time, our dollars, our brain damage. But from the construction vertical, you know, we leverage everything around that in that, you know, the construction business is kind of paying for everything that we do and it pays for employees, et cetera. But as of now, there's five of us at Renovation Capital, myself, an operating partner, a construction manager, an analyst, excuse me, two analysts that help do, you know, day-to-day, they help reporting on assets, we're help looking at everything in the market. And then when you start to look at kind of the opportunity set, how much capital do you think can be deployed in that sub-institutional kind of price point? Is that hundreds of millions, billions of dollars over time? Like, how big is that opportunity? It really depends on the markets. We did a dump out of some of our reporting stopwars to look for anything under 100 units, under 100 doors for an apartment complex. Even less than that, 100 doors times $100,000 a door, roughly class C product is a $10 million product.

there's probably 150 to 200 um or more of those type of complexes here in dfw right so and a 20 percent you know or 30 equity check you could easily you know in different markets you could easily spend hundreds of millions or billions on this yeah it's uh it's pretty fascinating if people want to learn more uh about what you're doing both on the uh construction side uh but also renovation capital where can we send them to uh to find more uh you've got my twitter uh i believe it's in the, it's in the home. It's in the page for the show today. Uh, you can email me at Brandon at renovation capital.com. Um, we're always here to talk. Awesome. Uh, my last question for you is, uh, given the market volatility, uh, we were talking earlier about,

uh, I sleep on an eight sleep mattress. What's your sleep schedule like, and what do you do on a day-to-day basis? Uh, I probably, I don't go to bed until probably midnight or so every day. I'm a, I'm a light sleeper. I don't, I don't sleep very much and I'm up by six, six 30 every day. Um, I've got a nice King mattress that, um, it's, it's probably needs to be, uh, probably needs to be upgraded. I'm a little behind the times on that one, but, uh, I get about six hours every day. And even then it's still getting interrupted by phones or whatnot.

I don't really sleep anymore. Listen, you got to promise me, just go from six to seven hours and change your life. And then once we get you to seven, then we'll move you to eight, but just get a little bit more sleep. I promise everything in life will become better. I saw the, I saw those shows, six minute abs, five minute abs, four minute abs. I thought it applied to sleep. Less sleep is better, right? Yeah, exactly. There's somebody somewhere who definitely thinks that it's not, it's not me. It's a grind, but I appreciate you having me on

pomp. It's been a blast. Awesome. Great. And listen, thank you so much for, uh, for joining us and we'll definitely do it again in the future when, uh, uh, as kind of the market continues to develop, uh, having a, a frontline report on, uh, on what's going on in the construction real estate market is a super valuable for folks. So thanks for taking the time to come on. Thank you, Bob. Have a good one. All right. Later, buddy. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you guys enjoyed this one. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to try to transition to get a new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head

over to pompscryptocourse.com. We've developed a curriculum with the top teams across the industry. it's a three-week intensive training program with over 50 events packed into that three-week time period go to pompscryptocourse.com to learn more and i'll meet you guys for the next episode