The Pomp Podcast - #1060 Dylan LeClair On The Continued Decline Of Consumer Sentiment

Episode Date: July 27, 2022

Dylan LeClair is the Senior Market Analyst at UTXO Management, a digital asset fund investing in the analog to digital transformation of money and the emergent financial system.    In this conversation, we discuss how consumers are feeling, what the yield curve inversion means, Bitcoin's correlation with the S&P 500, and what options does the Fed have left to get the economy back on track. Dylan joins us every Tuesday on "The Best Business Show." To see the video with the corresponding charts that Dylan references throughout the interview, go to "The Best Business Show: LIVE" YouTube Channel ======================= Coinchange is an automated wealth management platform that earns daily compounded yield for you. Earn up to 10% APY on a risk-mitigated basis – your payout doesn’t depend on the volatility of the market and there are no lockups or minimums.  Register now at coinchange.io/pomp and get a welcome bonus of 40 USDC when you fund your account. ======================= BCB Group is the leading payment services partner for the digital assets industry. BCB Group provides payment services in 30+ currencies, FX, cryptocurrency liquidity, digital asset custody and BLINC, which is BCB’s free, instant settlements network for the BCB client ecosystem. Find out more by visiting bcbgroup.com/pomp =======================

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. This episode is brought to you by CoinChange. CoinChange is an automated wealth management platform that earns daily compounded yield for you. They've got sophisticated algorithms that automatically analyze and allocate liquidity to more than 25 DeFi protocols, where you can earn very high rates of return on a risk mitigated basis when you hold your crypto earn while you sleep exercise or listen to this podcast your payout doesn't depend on the volatility of the market and there are no lockups or minimums they don't lend trade or rehypothecate your assets

this means that by becoming a coin change client you start earning yield from day one and you can withdraw your funds at any time register now at coinchange.io slash pomp and get a welcome bonus of 40 USDC when you fund your account. Again, coinchange.io slash POMP. Don't just hold your crypto assets, but earn smart DeFi yield with CoinChange. This episode is brought to you by BCB Group. With a dedicated focus on institutional payment services, BCB Group provides business banking, cryptocurrency, and foreign exchange market liquidity for many of the world's largest crypto-engaged financial institutions. BCB business accounts allow businesses to load fiat currency and cryptocurrencies for payments, operations, and trading purposes. BCB's clients

can trade FX and cryptocurrencies quickly and at scale with market-leading value. BCB's Blink Network is the European crypto industry's first instant settlements network and one of the first real-time payment networks of its kind to allow free real-time transactions across fiat and digital currencies. BCB's vision is to empower the global financial revolution through sustainable and innovative banking. You can find out more by visiting bcbgroup.com slash pomp today. Again, that's bcbgroup.com slash pomp today. This episode is brought to you by FTX US. FTX.US is the safe, regulated way to buy and sell Bitcoin and other digital assets. You can trade crypto with up to 85% lower fees than top competitors. There are no fixed minimum fees, no ACH transaction fees,

and no withdrawal fees either. FTX.us is also the only leading exchange that supports both Ethereum and Solana NFTs. Download the FTX app today and use referral code POMP to earn these free crypto on every trade over $10. The more you trade, the more you earn. Go download the FTX app today and use referral code POMP. Anthony Pompliano runs POMP Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Dylan LeClaire, how are you,

my friend? Hey, Pomp. How are you doing, man? I'm doing fantastic. We got a lot to talk about. Let's start with the White House. The White House is gaslighting us. They said a recession is not two negative GDP quarters. What's going on? Yeah, I mean, they seem to be redefining a lot of definitions lately. I think, yeah, pure gaslighting, maybe the technical definition,

but you ask anybody on the street, ask anybody, they understand that things aren't as good as they were last year. And by all means, we're, you know, if not technically, we're definitely, you know, starting to head into recession here. I also saw President Biden tweeted out saying that given the downward price pressure

on gasoline uh the average family saving 35 if they own one car and 70 that they own two and i died laughing because the first comment was ramp capital saying how much do they save if they have three cars right like it feels like that's what we're dealing with we're literally dealing with like elementary math and economics right now because they just either don't want to tell us the truth or maybe they don't understand i don't know yeah i think it's more propaganda than anything i think that's politics and and like you know by the way i'm not like a left or right kind of guy i think it's just how politics works in general my general take on it is exactly that which is like something that used to just be math is now being uh kind of uh co-opted

by the political uh administration and it's on both sides of the aisle right we just had another president who was doing very similar things uh and they just continue to try to twist the data to tell stories about the stock market, the economy, whatever. It's pretty incredible to watch. You have U.S. consumer sentiment and E.U. consumer sentiment charts stacked on top of each other. They don't look good. What's going on?

No, it's truly remarkable just kind of the situation we find ourselves in as a global economy. You know, we've been talking about it. You've been talking about it on your show for the last year. But truly, it's kind of like the perfect storm of just craziness that's leading us here, right? So we have this kind of huge global asset bubble, everything bubble that, you know,

seems to kind of be in the process of popping. That's been happening for the last eight months or so, you know, post-COVID, all that stimulus. On top of this, you have the structural inflation problem, which they were trying to, like if we go back a little bit, they were trying for the longest time, for really almost 20 years, to spur inflation.

They said inflation's too low, right? CPI was hovering around 2% and they really, they wanted to kickstart that inflation a little bit. They were doing quantitative easing. They couldn't do anything to get any inflation. I mean, hell, the Eurozone had negative interest rates until just last week for about a decade. And so now, right, post-COVID supply chains get shattered.

They throw a bunch of funny money stimulus at everything. And now we get inflation. And that's a good thing for these actually, they were actually rooting for this inflation. Why? Because the debt loads were so large that they needed a way to kind of erode the real value of the debt. It was actually a plan.

If you read Fed papers, if you read IMF papers, they talked about global debt to GDP, these debt numbers that were unsustainable. And they said, how do we lower them? Well, we can't default. Austerity is not politically feasible. Well, we can run inflation higher than rates and higher than bond yields for a while,

and we can erode that debt. So that was the plan. They actually executed it. They did it too good. So inflation is too hot. and now due to the kind of the social pushback the political pushback they're trying to reel it in and the fed who's way behind the curve is saying all right i guess we got to jack up interest rates so you have consumers that are that are facing super high inflation corporate margins are getting

killed and now they're on top of all this we have a huge debt problem still and they're jacking up the cost of capital so uh obviously not not a good sign i didn't even mention the russia ukraine conflict and all the second and third order effects there. But what a mess. And I think, you know, we're just kind of still crazy enough in the early stages of this kind of geopolitical global, you know, cluster F. When you think about the Federal Reserve, they were obviously still buying assets and they had interest rates at 0%. Going into the end of the year, inflation was over 7%. Super scary situation. In hindsight, they probably shouldn't have been doing that. Now we have Q1 GDP data negative, Q2 likely to be negative as well, and they're hiking rates

essentially into a recession. Are they just repeating the same mistake, but on the other end of the spectrum? Yeah, I think the Fed is behind the curve. I mean, that's kind of an obvious statement at this point. They, in hindsight, shouldn't have been jacking up mortgage-backed securities and treasury bonds into 2021 at a clip of $120 billion a month into a hot economy. and they could have honestly raised that you know those front end rates uh earlier well obviously that's in the past can't do anything about it now so they're very behind the curve and they're actually hiking into a recessionary period um and i think they've kind of telegraphed that they're doing this because they're explicitly trying to crush demand they can't really do anything on the

supply side and honestly the the kind of the paradox here is that the tightening of monetary policy actually probably over the medium to long term hurts the the supply side dynamics right we need more supply of energy, we need more supply of commodities, and hiking and tightening monetary policy actually kind of constrains that effort a little bit. So even if we get kind of a recession, we crush demand a little bit, and by we, I mean the Fed and global central banks, the kind of the structural issues here haven't been fixed. And while we do see kind of year over year inflation maybe come down, following these measures, we still have a pretty big problem. And, you know, if we look big picture here, stuff like peak globalization is a pretty

big possibility. And so if that is the reality here, then inflation is absolutely not going to just, you know, return to ho-hum 2% for the next decade. There's some bigger issues under the surface. Let's talk about the energy markets. You've got the German one-year Ford electricity. I mean, this looks parabolic. This is just up and to the right and it's not going to slow down. What's going on here? Yeah, I mean, so by no means am I a global energy expert. But what I do know is that if you look at kind of the makeup of the EU, Germany is kind of the EU's manufacturing powerhouse. It's the economic powerhouse of the European Union. And for the longest time, if you looked at like, say, European debt, Germany's bonds were trading with a negative

nominal, not negative real yield, because we always talk about negative real yields, right? inflation over the bond yields, you're losing your value as a creditor. Well, no, Germany's bonds for the longest time were negative in nominal terms. So you were, investors in the EU were actually paying Germany money to loan Germany money. It was quite crazy. And this was because Germany, of all the EU countries, was just had by far the best economy and the lowest default risk. And so now, due to the kind of the Russia conflict and, you know, the kind of the chess that Putin is playing, you know, Germany's electricity prices are absolutely soaring. So and this is the summer, right, where I think it's, you know, potentially a better outcome if the EU kind of wises up and Putin turns on the gas before winter when things can really get tragic. But if you're looking at, say, Germany's manufacturing kind of capability with these energy prices, it's just it's just not feasible.

and so the eu and if you look like to say the euro right it's getting crushed and that's for good reason because because germany and europe more broadly is almost kind of facing this emerging market dynamic of being short energy while the central bank is still you know burying at almost full capacity you see stuff like the anti-fragmentation policy that they're putting in place to cap credit spread between nations there's some really big structural problems in the European Union. And so when you see kind of currencies like the euro, which is the second or third biggest currency in the world, trading like an emerging market, there's some pretty big problems here. When you start to go back to the US and you look at the 10-year, two-year yield

curve, we're negative. We were last negative back in 2007, 2008. And then obviously, kind of in the late 80s, early 90s, as well as the 2000 tech bubble bursting. What is this telling you? Like, how much should we be worried about this given just how obvious it is that, you know, this is happening? Yeah. So, I mean, really the bond market isn't buying, isn't really buying the long-term inflationary outlook. You're seeing front end of the curve, the two-year, it's spiking up because inflation pressures continue to intensify. But the long end of the curve, the 10-year, 30-year, they're actually starting to fall materially against the front end of the curve because of the long-term, basically the long-term reality of way too much debt and the demographic

outlook, which are both kind of deflationary factors. When you see a huge inflationary impulse like we're seeing today, paradoxically, over the medium to long-term, it leads to deflationary outcomes. And so I think that's what the Fed's tightening policy is actually doing. It's setting up for somewhat of a spectacular deflationary bust and the bond market is kind of smelling it out. So while you see earlier in the year, in 2022, the treasury bond market had the worst start of its year in recorded history, right? As duration got killed because yields went up. So long dated bonds, long dated debt, even though you kind of can secure in that nominal yield over the course of the debt, mark to market wise, the bonds got killed in value. And so now we're starting to

see the long end of the curve relative to the short end, you know, bond market is supposedly the smart money. They're not buying this long-term inflationary outlook. And you're seeing a lot of kind of commodities start to sniff that out as well. When you then take a comparison like the CPI year over year versus the Fed funds rate, again, pretty concerning stuff here. What is this telling us? Yeah, so we kind of talked about the structural issues and the debt to GDP a little bit earlier, right? So when we look at the kind of the Fed's messaging, the messaging from the treasury and just and just look at kind of the the global debt bubble that we knew we had coming into this and and post-covid the reality that central banks were facing the reason that they

wanted inflation over yields in the first place was because debt to gdp was so elevated so if we just skip over one slide to slide number five real quick um there's there's a pretty amazing stat and i might i might get some of the details wrong but of nations that have 130 percent debt to GDP over the last, I believe, 80 years. There's been 52 of them. Only Japan, which is now experiencing a mass currency devaluation, hasn't defaulted on its debt, either explicitly defaulting or kind of implicitly defaulting through a huge spurt of inflation, right? So the US debt to GDP actually in Q4 of 2020 hit 136%. Through high inflation and low interest rates, we actually got that debt to GDP number, public debt to GDP to 124%. All it took was just 8% CPI over the

course of the year. But that was a playbook and they actually executed it well. They got the real value of that debt lower. But now because of that kind of political pushback, they have to reverse course. And so I think ultimately it's not going to last. It's just mathematically not a reality that can persist for long, given that as the economy slows, as asset values crash, you're going to see tax receipts absolutely plummet and the federal government and the treasury isn't going to be able to fund itself. Interest expense on this debt is going to be far too high with yields at 3% rather than, say, 1% or 1.5%. So we still have this debt spiral dynamic that a lot of people like Greg Foss talk about. It's just over the short to intermediate term, it's kind of unwinding,

right? But ultimately, there is that reality that the Treasury, that the US government has to fund itself. And so I think that's kind of where the long-term thesis of further debt monetization, money printer goper, and the Fed kind of backstopping this entire credit system comes back into play. That long term kind of dynamic is absolutely unchanged, despite all the craziness in the short term. As we continue to watch this play out, obviously, there's many sophisticated investors who just say, the macro trade is too big, the Fed's in control, I don't want to fight the Fed, let me dump assets. And what that does is it seems to drive correlations of assets closer and closer to one. We've got a chart here of the S&P 500 futures, and the Bitcoin USD. It just

literally is moving in lockstep, it appears. How do you kind of read, is this a good thing for Bitcoin? Is this something that needs to change over time? What's kind of your read on this? Yeah. So I've kind of always thought, at least for the last couple of years, that there's two, mainly two kind of cohorts of Bitcoin investors. There's the plebs, the stat stackers, the hobblers that are treating it as a new monetary asset in its early nascent kind of monetization phase. And so they're willing to withstand massive volatility. They understand their time horizon is years, maybe even decades. And the volatility is something that, you know, they over the long term actually benefit from because of the, you know, eventual upside performance, right?

On the other hand, there are kind of the Wall Street shops, hedge funds, et cetera, that are treating it like just any other risk asset, right? So it's actually performing like that and actually is serving as like kind of equity market beta. So the S&P is up 2%, Bitcoin's up 5%. The markets are down 2%, Bitcoin's down 5%, 10%, whatever it is, right? It's much more volatile. And so I think a lot of the leverage that has led to this downside performance has been purged, right? A lot of the kind of fraud has been kind of unraveled, which is a long-term net benefit and actually very healthy. But there still is the kind of the dynamic that, you know, that the Wall Street firms are treating it like a risk asset. So it's going to perform like that over the short to intermediate term,

and that's fine. The financialization of Bitcoin, I think as it's grown in global liquidity and relevance, is something that was always going to happen. People would love for Bitcoin to have been treated and talked about in macro circles in 2018, 2019 at 3,000. So now at 20,000 in the depths of this bear market, you still have bond market traders, you still have legacy market participants talking about, you know, what's Bitcoin, what's crypto doing? And I think that's, you know, a natural kind of maturation step. As we see the VIX coming down, obviously, Bitcoin's price coming down as well. Are these two things just correlated? Are they interrelated in the ways that maybe people don't understand? Like, why are you stacking these two on top of

each other so important? Yeah, so it's kind of similar, similar to the chart I just showed, right? So the VIX is S&P 500 volatility index. So it's showing the implied volatility of And it's kind of derived from option traders and how much volatility they're pricing into the market one month forward. And so we see when kind of the VIX falls, Bitcoin, whether it catches a bid or just finds some support or consolidates over the last year before kind of the next volatile rip upwards in the VIX, and then Bitcoin falls, right? So I think Bitcoin, if the volatility, if VIX, if we just see more illiquidity and volatility in legacy markets broadly, it's going to be very hard for Bitcoin to kind of sustain its current level. And that's what I'm kind of looking for in a potential leg down scenario is more downside and more volatile kind of pricing in equity markets for the next leg lower. And so, you know, if 17.5 is the ultimate bottom, great. But I suspect if we see any kind of significant volatile correlation to one move across equity markets, across bond markets, especially with all the kind of the global macroeconomic uncertainty when we're talking about Europe, when we're talking about Japan, when we're talking about potentially emerging markets feeling distressed because of a really strong dollar, all of this stuff is interconnected. And the history of financial markets shows us that none of it kind of exists in a vacuum.

And counterparty risk, especially during these recessionary periods, can quickly lead to financial crises. So in that environment, I would suspect Bitcoin to sell off materially as well. And that's fine, right? The same thing happened in March of 2020. And it's just kind of natural for a global asset that trades in every jurisdiction 24-7 to kind of in a rush to dollars for it to sell off. It just makes sense.

so when i start to think about bitcoin's price obviously the illiquidity of the market uh is something that in the bull markets is very obvious if all of a sudden bitcoin goes and it's you know 80 hasn't moved in 90 days or whatever it becomes obvious that if there are catalysts uh there can be substantial moves to the upside in the down phase of a bear market uh there's still an analysis of that illiquidity in the market. But how do you think of kind of the relationship of like what's the lowest price Bitcoin could go given some portion of people

who just are unwilling to sell Bitcoin, right? So I don't know if that number is 50, 60%, 40%, whatever that number ends up being. Like, how do you just think about the relationship? Less about like, what is the price? And more of just like, is there some price that Bitcoin literally can't go below because there are just not enough sellers

that will come to the table because they believe Bitcoin is, you know, a 10, 20, 30 year asset to hold? Yeah. I mean, the reason that Bitcoin always recovers, despite, you know, going down 90%, 80%, these hyper-volatile moves to the downside is because eventually the sellers run out of coins. And we don't know when that kind of, where that price level is. But, you know, for instance, if Bitcoin is down 80%, those stackers of last resort have 5x the relative buying power in BTC terms with $1, right? So eventually, when you see a bottom formed, it's because every forced and willing seller has already sold their coins. And now there's kind of

an imbalance, right? Price set the margin for every asset. It's just with an absolutely scarce asset where you can actually see each and every single individual coin or piece of that property moving in real time with on-chain analytics, we can kind of quantify it a little bit better. And so that inelasticity of this absolutely scarce asset, like you said, works to the upside and to the downside. And so that's why bear markets are often very brutal with many fake outs and many kind of bull market rallies. And that's why during true bull markets, the parabola is just kind of mind bending because there's just a fundamental supply demand imbalance with the marginal buyer and marginal seller. And as we look at the Lightning Network, let's use that as an example, there's been a bunch of debate around how popular it is. On one hand, if you go and you look at the charts, whether it's Lightning Network capacity, number of nodes, open channels, like all this stuff is up into the right, sometimes hundreds of percent year over year.

And it looks like on a percentage basis, it's growing incredibly quickly. At the same time, if you look at the amount of Bitcoin that's locked up, you know, in many days, it's under $100 million worth of Bitcoin actually locked in the in the network. How do you evaluate the health or kind of future potential value of the lightning network? Are there specific metrics that you look at that you find really important? And then how much of it is just like aggregate number versus like percentage growth numbers that you look at? Yeah, so I mean, I think the Lightning Network is very interesting. And often if you compare it to something like a DeFi protocols TVL, or I saw yesterday, someone was comparing it to the wrapped Bitcoin on Ethereum. It's just fundamentally different, right? With something like WBTC on ETH, wrapped Bitcoin on Ethereum, there's like 200 to 300,000 Bitcoin that are wrapped on ETH, right? There's a custodian that's BitGo. they issue a WBDC token, which is an ERC-20 token that can trade on, you know, the Ethereum blockchain, similar to like a stable coin. And you can use that as collateral. You can get a small yield on that. You can trade it on a DEX. You can do all these things. The Lightning Network is rather simple, right? You have peer-to-peer channels where you can route payments and it's just, you know, fast, cheap, easy payments. There's not much speculative use case for that.

I mean, there are some kind of trading platforms, but they're really not used all that much. It's just a peer-to-peer payment network, right? So this is something where adoption is growing very, very fast, but it still is pretty minuscule, right? And oftentimes, centralized payment solutions are much easier if you don't need a decentralized network, right? So for the users that do need a decentralized network or want to opt into it, the Lightning Network has a ton of potential and it's growing really, really fast and it is exciting. But for the most part, I kind of view Bitcoin as still more of kind of a monetizing store value asset, right? It is hyper volatile, but that medium of exchange use case for Bitcoin, but crypto more broadly, it's really not all that. It's really not there yet. I mean, Venmo works fine, right? Even Cash works fine. Cash App works fine. And I don't really want to pay with something, maybe not personally, but the average user maybe doesn't want to pay and have to track their capital gains taxes, right? So for anyone in a Western country where Bitcoin is taxed like an asset, it's paying with crypto, paying with Bitcoin, maybe it's not all that useful right now. Where I think it's really exciting is over the long term as Bitcoin matures from more of a speculative store of value asset that's kind of in its early nascent stages to more of a globally liquid money that is used for peer-to-peer payments, that is used potentially as a unit of account, right?

These are the long-term visions of the Bitcoin asset and the Bitcoin network. That's where I think something like a lightning network that allows for fast, cheap, quick, easy payments, where all the tech is kind of abstracted behind a wall, a nice UX and UI, I think that's really, really exciting. And obviously, a lot of work has to be done to get there. But I think kind of having a long-term vision with these technology networks is ultimately what pays off if you kind of look back through history. And as you start to evaluate the market today, what are the two or three things that you're paying attention to moving forward? Are you looking at, you know, Fed interest rate decisions? Are you looking at some sort of reversal in their language? Are you looking at the energy markets? Are you looking at gas prices, recession indicators? What are the things outside of Bitcoin that you think have an impact that you're just paying attention to?

Yeah, I mean, as kind of simplistic as it is as a framework, I think ultimately that the Fed's communication and the Fed's just simply, yeah, the communication with the market, right? They've been kind of, if you've been listening, they've been kind of saying since really late 2021, early 2022, the opposite of what they've been saying for the longest time. Instead of buy the dip and we're going to support and accommodate asset markets, while that may not be the exact language, they're saying, hey, we need to reel in inflation. We need to tighten the ship. And so I think that's really the signaling of Jerome Powell and the Federal Reserve is something to pay attention to. And I would suspect that they continue to kind of tighten the ship until something fundamentally breaks or the U.S. economy, the global economy weakens a lot further. So whether that's something in the treasury market or something in equity markets, I really think there probably needs to be more pain. And something I'm also looking at is the labor market.

I suspect that and real estate is probably the next kind of dominoes to turn over. And so I think for a Bitcoin investor, for any investor, you know, long term, this is going to present great opportunities over the next six to 12 months. But don't be, you know, in too much of a rush to snipe the bottom or to go all in or to leverage long, right? These things can take time. There can be kind of a lot of fake outs and consolidation before, you know, the next bull market.

We've had a really unique, you know, conditions for the last 20 years. and, you know, it may not be replicated with, you know, a V recovery up only again. And when you look at some of the price recovery that we see, so obviously if Bitcoin goes down to $17,500, it comes back to $20,000, it goes to $19,000, it goes to $22,000, $23,000, people get excited. How do you look at, you know, kind of dead cat bounces, head fakes, whatever language people want to use, but kind of the short-term optimistic type movements versus the more macro trend of like, look, we've been going down for eight months and you think that that's not going to change in the short term? Yeah. I mean, just kind of in Bitcoin specific, right? It's much

more volatile than equity markets. And so it's still kind of somewhat tracking those markets as well. This week's going to be big in terms of earnings, in terms of FOMC, right? Walmart, I think had a pretty terrible earnings report, traditionally kind of a recession proof stock down big after hours. It's kind of a crazy world where, you know, the price of this global monetary asset is affected by retailers and tech giants and something that, you know, fundamentally doesn't have too much kind of in common with. It's just it's kind of everything is dependent on this global liquidity tide. Right. So I think ultimately over the long term, that's a benefit of Bitcoin because they will mathematically certain have to kind of turn on

the spigots again. That's the reality of this debt dynamic. But what to keep in mind is that the pain and the volatility, especially to the downside, can last a lot longer than some people think. So stay solvent, have some cash, don't be leverage longing or trading yourself to death here. It's fine to stay patient. And I think over the long term, you'll look back and say, hey, this was a really great 12 months or maybe even 18 months of of buying opportunity uh but don't be too eager to you know kind of go all in with your chips um it just things like this can take some time yeah and uh that makes complete sense where can we send people to uh to find you on the internet uh or subscribe to the newsletter yeah um you can find

me on twitter uh at dylan mcclare underscore um kind of we're putting out uh next week uh sam rule and i for bitcoin magazine pro we're putting out kind of a a monthly report kind of documenting all this macroeconomic craziness and tagging it into Bitcoin. And so if you're interested in any of that stuff, give us a sub. And if not, you can just find me on Twitter and I'll be posting some of that stuff anyway. So yeah, I appreciate you having me on, Pop. And it was good to catch up for the first time in a little bit. You're doing a fantastic job. I'm excited to read it when you guys put it out. So thanks so much for joining us and we'll talk again next week. Cheers, brother. All right, later.