The Pomp Podcast - #1087 Chess Grandmaster Andrii Baryshpolets On Artificial Intelligence, War, and Critical Thinking

Episode Date: September 8, 2022

Andrii Baryshpolets is a Chess Grandmaster and has a PHD in Economics. In this conversation, we discuss the path to becoming a grandmaster, computer learning, cheating, Bitcoin & Crypto, and books and resources to become better at chess. Andrii also gives us insight into the Russia, Ukraine war as a Ukrainian and shares his thoughts on the macro economic environment. ======================= Exodus is the world’s leading browser, desktop, mobile, and hardware crypto wallet with support for over 230 cryptocurrencies. Founded in 2015 to empower people to control their wealth, Exodus has delivered a multichain Web3 Wallet – connecting you to Ethereum, Solana, and Algorand Web3 apps directly in your browser, with more networks on the way. Visit exodus.com/pomp today to download. ======================= If you’re trying to grow and preserve your crypto-wealth, optimizing your taxes is just as lucrative as trying to find the next hidden gem.Alto IRA can help you invest in crypto in tax-advantaged ways to help you preserve your hard earned money. So, ready to take your investments to the next level? Diversify like the pros and trade without tax headaches. Open an Alto CryptoIRA to invest in crypto tax-free. Just go to https://altoira.com/pomp ======================= LMAX Digital - the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading & custodial services - offers clients a regulated, transparent and secure trading environment, together with the deepest pool of crypto liquidity. LMAX Digital is also a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading analytics platforms. LMAX Digital - secure, liquid, trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp ======================= Amberdata provides the critical data infrastructure enabling financial institutions to participate in the digital asset class. We deliver comprehensive data and insights into blockchain networks, crypto markets, and decentralized finance. Download our Digital Asset Data Guide at https://www.amberdata.io/pomp ======================= The Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. Even better? Eight Sleep recently launched the next generation of the Pod. The new Pod 3 enables more accurate sleep and health tracking with double the amount of sensors, delivering you the best sleep experience on Earth. Go to eightsleep.com/pomp for exclusive Labor Day savings through September 11th. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, the UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia ======================= Crypto wallets and browser extensions are outdated, limited in features, and don’t meet the needs of today’s Web3 users. Core, the free, non-custodial browser extension built by Ava Labs, is more than just a wallet. Core is packed with features that give Avalanche users a more seamless, and secure, Web3 experience. With Core, any crypto user can easily swap assets, display NFTs in a beautiful interface, and store your assets in a Ledger-enabled wallet. Plus you can put real dollars in your Core wallet in just a few clicks. Go to www.core.app to access the full power of Web3 on Avalanche! =======================

what's up everyone this is anthony pompliano most of you know me as pomp you're listening to the pomp podcast simply the best podcast out there now let's kick this thing off andre barish pulitz is a chess grandmaster and has a phd in economics in this conversation we talk about chess talk about machine learning artificial intelligence cheating we talk about things like Fisher Random Chess, Crypto, Bitcoin, the best books if you want to get better at understanding the game of chess, and also how he thinks about the macro economy, different financial assets. And given that he is Ukrainian, what's going on with the Russia-Ukraine conflict? I really enjoyed this conversation with Andre, and I hope that you all enjoy it as well.

In this episode, there's a ton to get through. And one of the key themes is the idea of critical thinking, which is obviously an important topic. I really enjoyed this conversation with Andre and I hope you guys enjoyed it as well. Before we get in this episode though, I first want to talk about our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Exodus. Accessing Web3 across multiple networks just got a hell of a lot easier. Exodus is one of the most popular crypto wallets for mobile and desktop and they just added Chrome and Brave web browsers to the lineup. The new Exodus Web3 wallet is a multi-chain browser extension that lets you safely navigate Web3 and DeFi apps

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So run, don't walk, to Exodus.com slash Pomp to download the Exodus Web3 wallet right now. That's Exodus.com slash Pomp. Go check them out today. This episode is brought to you by Alto IRA. They can help you invest in Bitcoin and crypto in a tax advantage way. That helps you preserve your hard-earned money. Alto's crypto IRA lets you invest in Bitcoin and over 200 other different coins and tokens.

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start investing today this episode is brought to you by lmax digital the number one institutional crypto exchange they offer clients the deepest pool of liquidity and they have a hundred percent uptime track record through all the volatility spikes lmax groups liquidity relationships and ultra-low latency technology means that LMAX Digital is the market-leading solution for institutions across crypto trading and custodial services. LMAX Digital, secure, liquid, and trusted. Go learn more at lmaxdigital.com slash POMP. Again, that's lmaxdigital.com slash POMP. Anthony Pompliano runs POMP Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of POMP Investments. You should

not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. All right, guys, bang, bang. I'm very much looking forward to this conversation. Not every day that I get to talk to a chess grandmaster. And I thought a great place to start is how many hours do you think that you have obsessed over the game of chess to actually reach the level uh of expertise that you now have well that's a tough question uh really i've never counted those hours uh you know maybe maybe i will go a little sidewise i played tennis a little but i was so bad in it but i just remember that my

coach he said that to master the game you probably need to make one million uh hits and uh and that just you know around number just to say like okay hey you can claim that you you know how to play tennis if you made one million kills but in chess it's really difficult to say how much time it takes for a person to become a grandmaster uh years wise well it took me since i began when i was eight and i i became a grandmaster when i was uh 22 so you can count like 14 years yeah how many hours do you think you were playing per day between like ages like 8 and 15 so kind of when you were younger and you didn't have lots of other life responsibilities like how many hours would you play well uh not many to be honest so for me it took like maybe like two three hours a day and

that was sufficiently enough uh i would say that uh more important here is is intensity with which you you do this so it's it's not about like regularly training but but rather to successfully play in the tournaments to constantly improve yourself and uh in terms of chess it's really maybe unique sport in sense that you you really don't need to practice it every day to to keep up the form uh it's pretty much okay not to play let's say for three months and then quickly pick up the game in a couple of days yeah how much better are grandmasters than like the top players right so for the people who actually are a grandmaster versus everyone else is it an analogy that you could use to explain to people just how much better at chess you are than the average

player well also there is there is no unique measurement you know so it's really difficult to compare but but but you know the difference is obvious if you if you put a grandmaster and versus some random player uh definitely we would see the difference in how the game evolves and uh probably it's again it's easier to to make a comparison with some uh spectacular sports like let's pick tennis again so when you when you see like how federer plays right or nadal or djokovic definitely their level is way better even than many professionals. So let's say

well, also it's difficult to compare because in tennis you don't see those top guys encounter amateurs, right? So you don't see this often. In chess it is way more common because in any regular tournament

in open tournaments where you have around 600 players, it can be the situation that you have, let's say, like 10-20 grandmasters and pretty much everybody else ranging from from the beginners to people of international master level people who are experienced players who played let's say 10-20 years 30 but really the the differences is really subtle from from the outsider point of view so if you never watched chess for you it would be difficult to say like why why the guy is a grandmaster why he plays uh better um uh but but yeah probably it's it's something that you

you would experience once you see it um maybe i just can recall a recent uh uh like kind of exhibition games just friendly games with my uh teammates from work and they uh they really were amazed and i was humbled humbled to to hear a lot of you know saying that yeah it's really amazing to see how you play chess because our thought process is very different from from what we see how you play because they just see that for me it's effortlessly to to you know make a good move and uh for them they they just don't understand how it happens that fast and the answer is pretty simple right because once you you've played it for many many years it's it's quite easy for you to to do it right so just imagine like let's say you you learn some new language and for you it would

take some time even to uh to memorize some words right and then it takes some you know time to to recall them but for a person who speaks you know this language for all their lives it's quite easy so one of the pieces that i've always wondered is like for a grandmaster how much of it is uh memorization of opening moves and and kind of a lot of the the muscle memory just comes from i've played so many games i've seen this already i know how to handle that situation versus no actually there is a kind of a new computation that is occurring every single time you're playing a game well luckily it's both uh so definitely memorization it takes a lot of part in professional chess and also in amateur chess especially nowadays when computers are extremely strong

and the theory of openings it evolved tremendously uh i would say like over the past like 10 20 years where computer when computers became really strong that's why in professional chess definitely memorization it's a very big part of the battle but luckily it's not all so you cannot win just by memorizing the lines because definitely at some point of the game it turns the point where you need to work yourself and if you don't have the necessary skills if you don't have experience and understanding of what to do in the position then it wouldn't work and again luckily in chess, those occasions they're pretty much in every game

so your preparation for the game of course it takes a lot of hours because you need to memorize a lot of stuff, you normally try to predict what your opponent would do and you just try to memorize the lines you've already seen probably

or you try to prepare something new that you've never played but for this specific opponent you need to come up with something new but nevertheless once you get into the game and you begin playing by your plan then you see suddenly your opponent just

changes his mind or probably they just decided to play something that you just didn't take into account and then you need to begin your own thought process and that's why luckily it just accommodates both styles so there are players

who really don't memorize anything so they just play by intuition and they prefer to try to avoid their opponent's preparations and that's also sufficiently fine

for amateur chess but of course in the professional world if we talk about like top guys it wouldn't work so you need to combine both you need to be

prepared with memory like psychologically also emotionally you need to be a really good chess player in many many ways How much of the game in person is psychological?

Can you psych out your opponent, not necessarily with the moves on the actual board, but are there things that you see in competition where there's almost a game off of the board that's happening? Oh, yeah, certainly. It's always there. And chess is an extremely psychological game. And of course, if we talk about pandemic and online chess that became popular over the past few years, things changed a little because when you sit over the board and you see your opponent

you see her or his face and you understand that what kind of thoughts are inside of the person that really helps you in some way so you can be aggressive in terms of some moves actually like you asked about

move wise or not move wise actually over the board it also makes sense sometimes you can block You can do not really the best move, but the move that would be the most unpleasant for your opponent or maybe unexpected. Like off the board, it also matters. But ultimately, I would say just personally on my feeling for my career, it didn't matter that much because also chess players, they like to focus on the game and on the essence and on the board rather than try to outplay opponents off the board. Yeah. How many games could you play at one time, whether online or in person? Is there like a number that you feel really comfortable? Four games, eight games, 12 games? How do you think about that? Well, I've played Simuls in my career, of course, and over the board, I think it was

like 25 kids whom I played at once, which is a reasonable number, I'm not sure there is a limit, so I think I would easily play like 50, 100, it doesn't really matter. What matters is timing and those kind of things, and of course the level of the opponents, matters a lot because when you play like uh kids who just begun playing uh then it's it's it's easy you can play maybe even a thousand games but uh i played yeah i played kids who who are uh who are not new so they played already you know three four or five years and uh they're quite tough to beat but um still i managed i remember the simul i managed to beat all of them and normally in simuls that that's how i do it i just you know beat everyone i'm merciless in this sense because

I think that you learn a lot from those simuls. I also remember myself as a kid and I played those simuls against grandmasters and I enjoyed them a lot, though I also lost myself. That's my approach. Once you lose, you can learn from your mistakes

and that's the biggest source of your improvement. Online-wise, I think I played around 20 boards and 20 games and that's also just adequate number and i think it just depends on the number of people who would like to encounter you in the game yeah it sounds insane when you say that you could play a hundred uh simultaneous

games uh but to your point if you're simply just concentrating on the board that you're looking at in that moment uh and you're playing somebody who has lesser skill than you uh then there's advantages that you obviously get are there certain things outside of just playing chess for hours per day that you can attribute to actually getting better and eventually reaching Grandmaster? Oh, absolutely. Actually, playing is not the only source. Mostly it's reading books.

Chess literature is extremely prolific. Some say that actually chess literature is the biggest among any kind of literature, which is difficult to really comprehend in the sense of, let's say, science. So books in physics, if you count the total books that, you know, the humanity produced over the years, it would be surprising to discover that actually chess books are way more by the numbers, by the just rough count of how many books were produced. so really there is a lot of literature and of course to that training camps it's extremely

important to have coaches, people who would tell you what you're doing right, what you're doing wrong every stage of your career and even professional guys they do have coaches let's say if we talk about the very best the world champion Magnus Carlsen

he has a lot of people who help him in preparation in psychology and many other aspects. So it's literally like in any other sport you see a professional player playing, but at the same time, behind the scenes, there are just an enormous team of people who support this performance.

Do you share tips and tricks and secrets with other top players, or is it very kind of taboo? And if you're a good chess player, you don't want others to know all your secrets? To some extent, of course. you know, if you follow chess, you would immediately see that normally chess players,

they don't want to elaborate a lot on their preparation and say like, hey, okay, this is something that was prepared a long time ago, or this was my full thought process during the game. Normally we see, yeah, there are interviews and commentaries

after the game where, you know, when players, they share their thoughts, but they do not sincere 100%. That's for sure. And of course, there are some tips and tricks that every chess player uses. And normally, yeah, it's something that we just get used to. We do not share it unless with our teammates and our coaches. For example, if it's a team competition, definitely we can exchange ideas.

Let's say to play against some opponents, what are their weaknesses and those kind of things. Or in terms of opening preparation, that's also important to discuss it in teams. Definitely, it's a famous proverb that one head is good, but two heads are always better. When I think about chess today, I would put myself very much in the amateur category, but I'm fascinated by aspects of the game, including machines. I'm interested in the kind of global nature of the game and how chess people who have mastered the game of chess think outside of chess itself and kind of what it teaches you from a kind of logic standpoint if we think of machines two of the areas that I find absolutely fascinating is

one the rise of artificial intelligence or machine learning and so now we have humans competing against computers and if you know somebody has a mobile app on their phone and they're playing against kind of a low grade computer. If you're good at chess, you can pretty much set the difficulty level. You can beat it over and over and over again. But what I've started to see now is that there are a number of models or machines that are defeating grandmasters and people who are very, very good at chess. And so how do you think about this introduction of kind of more sophisticated computers into the game of chess? Is it good? Is it bad? Do you seek them out to play them? Do you get frustrated? Like, how do you think about it? Well, I frankly have mixed

feelings because you know I have my phone and it well I'm not sure if you can see it but but but anyway it's uh it's really awful feeling when you you just cannot beat your phone and uh and actually I yeah I was lucky that I raised it at the times where when computers were not that strong and uh back in that days uh we didn't even have smartphones so there was no even question whether whether you can beat a cell phone or not. There was a famous story when Garry Kaspar was first beat by a machine back in the end of 90s. He lost to Deep Blue and it was quite a big deal

at that time because arguably it was a turning point in chess history when a machine really beat a human. Now, of course, we see a tremendous progress of computers and of course machine learning techniques techniques involved in that, it's really something amazing. When AlphaZero, which is arguably also the best chess engine ever, based on machine learning algorithms, once it kind of released, I really couldn't believe it happens, because I thought it's some kind of fake or scam, because because the performance of AlphaZero was so much better

than traditional engines that we have in chess. That really also was kind of a revolution in the game. But nowadays, indeed, we as humans, we just cannot compete with computers. It's literally like trying to run a 100-meter race against a supercar, because the computational abilities of computers these days

they're enormous and also the algorithms of evaluation of positions and how to approach chess it's very different in terms of technologies these days, that's why computer preparation nowadays

it weighs way more than it was let's say 10 years, 15 years ago not saying like 25 years ago or maybe like Let's see if we talk about before computer era, 50, 70 years ago, which arguably was also a golden era of chess, when people really competed over the board. Now we definitely can say that modern chess players,

they not only compete over the board, but they also compete in their home labs when they have a lot of assistants, they have a lot of computers, various approaches to positions, to positions to openings and uh there's also a question who has the strongest computer uh though again as i already mentioned luckily uh it's the question who is a better chess player luckily it's not only about uh who has better home preparation and who has a stronger computer so still you can can beat the guy with you know strongest preparation just by because you're more talented and that that that's really cool but just getting back to your question how how i really feel about

about it and how it really affected the approach to chess. Really, in a way, it feels bad when you get into trap. You just play with a kid who really just put everything in the computer back home. And you cannot outplay them right from the start just because your preparation is no longer better. Because back in the times, becoming a grandmaster, it takes to reading a lot of books.

you you're very knowledgeable in in openings now there is no such advantage exists literally anyone can just open their computer put chess engine on and they're going to be experts as you are so really there is no need to to to have access to grandmasters to to get some sense of the position uh these days uh computers they suggest literally better moves and solutions compared to human and that's why it became very different uh though still it's in no way it means that uh chess is in deep trouble and we were just ending up seeing computers battling themselves uh not at all uh still uh we're running at the same hundred meters but you know among uh humans not not with supercars do you think that computers

will just play each other like is there a time where whether it's tournaments or uh for just entertainment purposes or whatever like we'll just see computers competing against computers and humans will just be spectators well actually it's already there actually you probably were not aware of this but there are tournaments between computers and uh there are competitions though you know i myself also i must confess that i i don't follow them because it's quite boring when you see normal chess especially for me as a kind of semi-professional chess player it's really a lot of pleasure to watch how people play chess but for me there is little pleasure to see how machines try to beat each other of course I occasionally I come across the games and I see

like how they play and how they you know approach positions approach ideas but it's really completely different field. But there are tournaments and I'm not sure when they began but I would say that they began as long as chess engines were released. So let's say just if you put some timestamp like beginning of 2000s that's probably the time when those tournaments among chess computers they began and they keep on competing in nowadays and that's how we discovered that also machine learning based computers they're stronger than traditional engines but of course it also requires to kind of adjust the computers in terms of computational power because Apparently, if you have more cores, if you have, let's say, as we say, more ferrum into that, then the computer would be better.

When you think about the rise of these chess engines, how prevalent is cheating? I'm assuming online there's lots of quote-unquote cheating, depending on how you want to characterize that in tournaments or whatever. but does that also spill over into kind of physical tournaments as well in person tournaments, or how do you think about cheating in the chess world right now? Oh yeah. It's, it's actually, it's, it's a big topic. It's a big topic and a lot of debates in the chess world around it because really there is a great fear of cheating simply because it became so,

so easy. And again, it's just as easy as just, just having a phone, right? So, because you know that the phone plays better than you and you literally can improve your game just looking at the phone. And that's why cheating became widely available, and that's why also these days in the tournaments it's really a must for the organizers to make sure that all the anti-cheating measures are in place. And just a day ago it was a huge scandal and it's still a scandal we're kind of

amid of this chess drama as we call it that world champion Magnus Carlsen he withdrew from the tournament which happened the first time in his career and supposedly it is related to some suspicions that the guy in the tournament

who actually beat Magnus just a day before Magnus withdrew that he cheated though there is no any direct evidence as far as I know and that's a big problem indeed and that's a huge debate what to

do in future because if we admit that it's so easy to cheat and perform way better than you are then yeah difficult to say that we can compete on the track field not against supercars but also there is

a problem that in a way it became a witch hunt because uh also people who apparently they do not cheat but they perform uh extremely strong for for various reasons and of course if we talk about young players it's really possible to to gain strengths quite quickly as in any other sport right you see like a 14 year old kid just doesn't know how to play i don't know let's say football But then in two years, it's a superstar of NFL, right? So that's quite common. So in chess, it's exactly the same.

And that's why we see that youngsters, they rise quite fast. And then, of course, since we know that in our computer era, some miracles, they might happen, not because you're a talented player and not because you put a lot of effort in the game, but just simply because you found a way to cheat. Regarding online tournaments, it's even worse because when we play back at home, it's really difficult to prevent people from cheating.

Though, of course, in the professional chess world, we know that we don't cheat. For example, I myself, when I play another grandmaster in an official tournament, let's say it was a student's league, I know that we don't cheat because it's kind of also professional ethics we were raised in completely different mentality

it's just simply not acceptable to cheat because also for me like let's say if I talk about myself personally it's a really red line so once I begin cheating it means that I'm not a chess player anymore because when I play chess I enjoy

not only beating the opponent but I enjoy making the best move and finding it myself and being proud of myself performing well in chess. So imagine what, I mean, let's say you, again, let's pick tennis, right? So if you play and beat Rafael Nadal, then you can be proud of yourself. But would you be proud in the same way if you cheated, if you used, you know, some doping or medicine or did something unacceptable.

It would be a completely different feeling. So in terms of getting enjoyment from the game, it's really not acceptable to cross this line. When you think about cheating, a lot of people will talk about the chess engines. What about things that people ingest? So, you know, some people would argue, oh uh you drank coffee i didn't you can focus better or you have better concentration i don't

think most people would say that's cheating right that would just be hey you drank some coffee before uh before the match uh but are there instances in chess or things that are top of mind right now uh whether it's adderall or other types of things that people could be taking and ingesting to actually give them an advantage in playing that's actually excellent question because that there was also a lot of debates around that pretty much all the time and uh and the answer is quite simple that uh actually there is no uh kind of prohibited substances or that there is nothing that uh is not acceptable so it's not like uh in uh athletics where uh you see that you know they're just some injections they're just not accepted because it's a violation of laws and

then water just would come after you in chess there is no such thing and it's up to you you can drink like 10 cups of coffee and uh still it's it's not clear like first of all why it happens because it's not clear how it affects your your brain uh definitely we know that for example coffee is a big stimulator right but at the same time it's not clear how it really helps to perform uh over the board and uh for some people it really adds up to their strengths for some others it might not and uh even scientifically there is no direct answer if uh let's say eating something during the game it would boost your performance or not that's why uh like apart from uh really using technologies and computer cheating,

there is no such way to cheat in any other way, let's say, by drinking some liquid. Well, we see that normally it's the accepted kind of perception of that, that it wouldn't help. This episode is brought to you by Amber Data. If you're a financial institution

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slash Pomp. Again, that's amberdata.io slash Pomp. Go check them out today. This episode is brought to you by 8sleep. Good sleep is the ultimate game changer, and the 8sleep pod is the ultimate sleep machine. The pod is the only sleep technology that dynamically cools and heats each side of the bed to maintain the optimal sleeping temperature for what your body needs. With the pod, you can start sleeping as cool as 55 degrees Fahrenheit or as hot as 110 degrees Fahrenheit. What is the result? Clinical data shows that 8sleep users experience up to 19% increase in recovery, 32% improvement in sleep quality,

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Again, 8sleep.com slash POMP. You get $150 off when you use code POMP. This episode is brought to you by Core, the free non-custodial browser extension built by Ava Labs, which is more than just a wallet. Did you know that you can also bridge Bitcoin natively across the Avalanche bridge and take advantage of the thriving DeFi ecosystem

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who is one of the top players in the world at one minute Fisher chess. And when I told him that I was going to speak with you, he sent me a quote from Bobby Fisher, who basically was talking about the invention of a Fisher chess. And for those that don't know, it's basically the board starts out with the pieces scattered in a random formation. And then if you play one minute, it obviously adds the pressure of the time.

How do you think about some of these other chess games that have been invented over time uh either to cut down on memorization or cut down on specific advantages that people have um is it something that you enjoy playing do you just stick to kind of more classical chess how do you think about these games uh i personally myself i will begin with the second part i myself prefer classical chess uh though i very much respect uh fisher random chess i also enjoy playing it uh though of course i don't play it as much as a classical game uh but to add to that i would also say that uh one minute bullet game it's also completely different universe of chess and uh i would say in general that i see that we have uh really different variations of chess and

uh playing like one minute online it's in my understanding it's really not a classical chess because i was uh raised as a chess player under completely different circumstances when you have chess position and your goal is to find the best move find the best plan and you're normally not restricted in time so your goal is not to find the best move in five seconds and why i'm saying this because some positions in chat they're as difficult as for you know finding the solution you might need like at least 15 minutes and back in the old days people trained and you know for For some positions, puzzles, you might spend even hours trying to find the solution.

And that's really kind of also another way to enjoy chess when you really literally spend hours and hours trying to analyze one position and trying to find the solution. And you still cannot find it. So it's like, you know, puzzles for mathematicians also. In a way, they're similar, but with different approaches. But back to questions with other types of chess, of course I do respect

that chess evolves and I do respect bullet chess though I'm not personally myself I'm not a fan of it and one minute Fisher Random frankly I haven't seen it so I probably need to you know spend some time to see it because I'm pretty sure

it's amazing since Fisher Random indeed since the position is not trivial and you're seeing it for the first time right from the opening right from the beginning of the game you need to approach it very differently and for that you absolutely

have to have some time on the clock to just get into position for example personally for me it would take definitely more than one minute just to realize okay where the pieces are and what would be the best setup of how to begin the game

but hearing that people can play an entire game in one minute with Fisher random it's really amazing, but definitely it's another surprise for me. And I also appreciate seeing people do it. I refrain from ever playing with him because I couldn't tell you where the pieces are in one minute, just like you. So it is, it is quite impressive. Talk to me about the International Chess Federation. They, obviously the elections recently happened. You were running for president. Talk a little bit just about that organization, the current leadership and why you

had chosen to uh to run yes this decision to run for myself it came very unexpectedly uh this idea just came to my mind uh around the end of april uh around the time when uh the current incumbent president arkady dvorkovich he declared that he wants to get re-elected and for me it was completely insane and it still is it's still terrible to see that uh the current leadership of International Chess Federation and it's actually a long story and for the background actually that there were always perception that chess is kind of a Soviet game. Why it happened? Because apparently Soviet Union was dominating chess for many years since like let's say 1950s and what happened was International Chess Federation in 1995

we got elections where Kirsan Olymzhinov, who is a Russian politician he won the elections he was not from the chess world he came unexpectedly to rescue the chess world after the crisis that happened after 13 years of presidency

of Florencio Campomanes who arguably was a KGB spy or something, a KGB agent actually and for example Well, Garry Kasparov, who is probably one of the most famous chess players of our generation, like many generations, actually, he claimed that international chess organizations, in

a way, it's under control of KGB. And it has been like that at least since 1992, when Kampomanes was first elected. So the story evolved that in 1995, when Ilyumzhinov became the president, he put some money into he's a businessman, and in a way he kind of rescued the organization, that's kind of also the perception. But still, there were a lot of scandals and all kinds of bad things, and eventually it turned out that Ilyumzhinov, he has been the president until 2018, so for 23 years we had the Russian politicians running the organization, and Ilyumzhinov, he was actually famous for

three things. One of them, according to himself, he was abducted by aliens, which is pretty cool to have the main representative of the chess world who was abducted by aliens. Then he was famous for his visits and meetings with all the best people in our world, like Muammar Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Bashar Assad, and those kind of things. And what I'm trying to say is that apparently the chess federation was not about chess only, which of course is a huge shame. So chess federation for many years was more about politics and it was an instrument of Russian politics for those years and unfortunately it still is. And finally in 2015 Ilyumzhinov got sanctioned by US Treasury for his ties to Syrian government and Syrian ban. And eventually, he actually tried to get

re-elected in 2018. And that was his intention. And what is really unfortunate about it that the system is built in the way that it's really almost impossible to beat the incumbent president. And however, the incumbent, as it was in the case of Ilyumzhinov, he easily won all the election. For example, in 2006, we had a really great competition, a very well-known chess organizer, Bessel Kok, from Netherlands. He competed with Ilyumzhinov. And of course, all the chess world, and especially Western chess world, we had high hopes that finally the Federation will become modern, democratic, and progressive. But guess what? Ilyumzhinov won just easily back in the days. Then in 2014, Garry Kasparov himself, he ran against Ilyumzhinov, and he put a lot of

resources and efforts to become a president, and yet he lost also quite convincingly, simply because it's really not possible to kind of beat this corrupted system. Because whoever is the president, you know, Ilyumzhinov had all the possibilities to travel around the world and talk to delegates, federations, and eventually he had everything under control. So what happened in 2018, Arkady Dvorkovich, who is a Russian politician, who has an extremely prominent career in the Kremlin. He's been for many years a close associate to Putin himself, to Dmitry Medvedev when he was president. So Dvorkovich, he was deputy prime minister for six years. He was advisor to the president also for many years. And you can imagine in 2018,

the guy who has little to do with chess despite his father he was a international chess arbiter but that's the only connection that Dvorkovich has to the chess world so the guy just three months before the elections he comes in and says like oh yeah I would like to run for the presidency and I would be good with the president and at the same time he withdraws from the elections he declares full support to Dvorkovich and why it all happens just simply because Dvorkovich has enormous support of Russian government, financial support, political support, and all kinds of those things. And eventually Dvorkovich won those elections in 2018. And now 2022, the elections that we had just one month ago, in April I just realized that this time we're just on the edge of not having

elections at all, because really nobody wants to contest this, because also many people just understand that you just hope you cannot be such machine especially when again the federation is fully under political control of russia moreover of course what added spices to that that the situation is completely different from what it was in 2018 or 2006 2014 when And again, we were talking about chess, but now we're probably not the only one. I think in boxing, it's in a way, it's a similar situation in boxing federation that we're a sports federation that is run by a Russian politician. And of course, it's not only a big shame for us as chess players, as chess world to have such representation, but also from the practical point of view

it's quite difficult to attract any sponsors so if we say that the International Chess Federation the main goal of it is to globally promote chess how on earth we can do that if no sponsors would like to

sign any contracts merely because they know that for themselves being in any way associated with Russian politics and now we see what Russian politics actually means it's not only terror inside the country, now they're just bringing terror outside of their country for actually many years. And this full-scale invasion in Ukraine, which happened in February, it's just another round of this external aggression of Russia. And from a

practical point of view for us as a chess world, to have Dvorkovich who has close ties to Kremlin and pretend that nothing happens and we still can talk about chess, not about politics, it was quite difficult to even think of that. And that's why it drove my decision to enter the competition myself and say like, okay, hey, if nobody in the world really wants to say the right things and compete against this system, then I would do this. And And that's how I ended up in these elections. And I'm really, you know, proud of my efforts. And I'm really happy that, you know, so many people, they landed support.

Because also what happens in the chess world, many understand that things are not going the right way. Though not many are willing to do anything because they just see that it's hopeless. So we just got used to being run by Russian politicians. And it's been for 23 years with Limzinov. And now it's after four years of work, which we were saying, like, OK, we have like another four years of Russian politicians being in the office. And we pretend that nothing happened. Which is, of course, I mean, at least disappointing to say the least. Yeah. One of the things that makes this an even more, I think, kind of sensitive topic for you is you obviously are Ukrainian and Russia's invasion of Ukraine, while not directly related to anything in the chess world, you're bringing up a number of things where it may not be as black

and white as is it related, is it not? How do you think about the Russian invasion of Ukraine? And as you speak to people in Ukraine, who I'm assuming you still have family and friends there, what are they telling you about the actual situation on the ground? Oh, well, it's also a very large topic, and of course, I do have a lot of relatives there, friends, pretty much all my life in Ukraine, and though I live in the U.S. for the past seven years, still, I'm very much Ukrainian, and just to say it's heartbreaking for me to see what happens, it's just the least I can say. Of course, I'm very much outraged, it's really not imaginable to see that in the 21st century

one country just can declare that another one doesn't exist, and it's kind of an artificial nation or something, this notion that Putin and Russian propaganda tries to put in justification of what they do it's it's really you know shocking to see and i think my feelings they of course they they're more sensitive and of course i see things differently but but at least i i how to say um well to me it's good to see that we have a lot of support it's really amazing to see that we are not there by ourselves in this battle. I see that

literally all the same people in the world, they understand that it's not right. Really we would prefer to talk about chess, about you know, I don't know, politics, sports, finances, economics, culture, those

kind of things, but not talking about war and suffering of people. And what Russia actually does these days just a complete horror because it's really difficult to put other things out of

contact, including chess as well. And of course, I do not hide this, that my biggest motivation to run for Peter presidency was also driven by the fact that I just couldn't stand the idea that we're

still okay to have Russian politicians, and we're still okay to pretend that nothing happened. uh because really we see that you know why russia needs it why uh it's important for them to to be part of the civilized world to say like okay hey guys we're in the in the chess we're in culture and politics we're we're like having some negotiations talks play sports but at the same time we can freely invade other countries and uh make just really terroristic attacks for no reason And that's what Russia keeps on doing all these six months of this invasion. They are not doing like as they claim that it's a special military operation against some Nazis.

It's just all complete nonsense. What they do, they just target civilian objects. So many people are dying for no reason, including actually Russian soldiers. And it seems that for Russians, it's acceptable. they say like oh okay yeah we just keep on you know thinking of other things like you know playing chess or something uh so yeah but just getting back to your question of course all what happens it's it's a huge shock and uh of course on the personal level for me uh definitely and uh and i i i wouldn't exaggerate if i say that it's a big shock for the entire world because now we all see

witness how indeed cruel and how bad this authoritarian regime in Russia is. Because prior to that, it was all kind of hidden. Though, on my personal view, it happened not in February, it actually happened a long time ago, pretty much when Putin came into power in the beginning of 2000. Because we know of invasion of Georgia in 2008, annexation of Crimea in 2014. Also, we know all those spy operations and all those scandals when Russian intelligence assassinate people around the world, like in London and Berlin and in Doha, Dubai, like also interference in US elections. And the world seems to be okay with that. They say like, oh, yeah, I mean, that's really bad, but it's politics, we just keep it aside. But now the world is indeed shocked to

see that another round of this aggression against humanity it happens in Ukraine when Russia declares oh yeah we just you know pursue our some interests and yeah we we have the right to do what we do which is I mean it's really abnormal and and again I'll probably repeat myself on that that it's really heartwarming to see that we have a lot of support. Ukrainians really appreciate the help of Western countries, United States, European Union, and many other countries that are united against this idea that we can let it go and say like, okay, hey, Russia is still a big country. We're still afraid of them and let them do whatever they like with their neighbors. What's up with President Zelensky?

Like, I think most people in the U.S., they never heard of him before. And just this past week, he was literally ringing the bell to the U.S. stock market. He was on national financial television. He's been on the cover of Vogue magazine. He's obviously spoke directly to Congress. And he's an individual who obviously, as the leader of Ukraine, was on the international stage, right, to some degree. But given the situation and the conflict here, he has now risen to a level of international prominence that I think many people have been surprised by. What do Ukrainians kind of think about the role that he's taken in all of this?

Yeah, I would say also like normally I don't like generalizations because Ukrainians are also very different. And it's difficult to say like, OK, hey, like all Ukrainians, they think the same. No, of course, we're still even amid war. We have some people who appreciate his actions or some of his actions and so on. But of course, in general, here probably I would generalize. Yes, Ukrainians are very proud of Zelensky, including myself. I wasn't a fan of Zelensky when he became a president in 2019 and also for the background, he's a comedian actor so he's not a professional politician and never been into politics but he's very famous in Ukraine, he was and that really helped him to become a president

because people in Ukraine, they were also disappointed with probably previous governments but anyway, to your question So indeed, he became, to some extent, a national hero because he refused to flee from Kyiv, which is just the best decision ever, I would say. And of course, I praise him for that, for his courage, for his also bravery and all the actions he does. And of course, amid war, I personally, I lend all my full support to what he does. And I really admire what he does and his all efforts to raise awareness, to increase help, to solicit help from other countries.

It's really what we need and what we hope for. And Ukraine is really united for our leader. and even if we talk about political leader of course Ukrainians they're very much united in their support to army forces, we donate a lot of money from all over the world, also it's really

amazing to see and for me personally I witnessed that humanitarian aid and support have been flowing into Ukraine for those past six months, just millions of tons of aid and even here in Los Angeles where I'm

We don't have a big diaspora of Ukrainians, but we're still very much united in our support to Ukraine, and we do all we can in various ways. And what Zelensky does, appealing to the global community, it's one of the ways to help our case and finally stop Russian aggression and push all the occupants out from Ukraine. Yeah, it is. It's pretty incredible to see how quickly he's been able to get that message out. And obviously, most of the people in Ukraine that I've spoken to that either lived there before, still have family and friends there or live somewhere abroad seem to be pretty appreciative of his efforts. Talk to me about kind of the market, the financial market. You have a PhD in applied economics and chess, obviously, is something that you're very well known for. But you kind of have this whole other life and have a ton of kind of traditional education, but also I know a lot of interest. How do you see kind of the macro environment right now? And then maybe more specifically for this audience, a lot of people care about Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies.

And do you have any thoughts there? Yeah, I will probably also break your question into parts. Of course, especially on the topic of Russian aggression in Ukraine, it's also pretty much obvious, I guess, to the audience that the world economy is shaken because of that. And simply because Russia is quite a big country, though not that much large economy. Ukraine is also one of the biggest suppliers of agricultural goods.

So agricultural markets, apparently, they're shaking. And we see that the stability of the entire world economy is under threat. Well, maybe it's a little exaggerated, but definitely we see that there are huge fluctuations. For example, you can see it on a gas station, right? So gas prices over the past months, as they were fluctuating pretty badly, and we've seen that the increase in gas prices were unprecedented in the times. And of course, prices for energy sources, they are one of the biggest drivers of the global economy.

And until this war is over, until we stop Putin, it's still going to be shaking. Difficult to get back to the stability because, again, the modern world has changed. And now we see that it became truly more global. Some people, they might think like, hey, it's kind of a regional war that we're really far from it. And why would we care about it? But in fact, we see that there are so many interconnections, so many global companies that operate in different continents that really the economy became global. And in this sense, we have like 8 billion people, but still we are very much interconnected by any such things. And that's why we see that those shakeups of economy, they're driven by this war.

And you see, like many brands, they exited Russia. Of course, the investment environment in Ukraine is really in a poor situation because of the war. So that's why it's really difficult to predict what happened, because the situation still is not stabilized. But going back to your part of cryptocurrency and financial market, also for me, I would also put a disclaimer there that I'm not a big expert. So the way I do have a PhD in economics, it still doesn't make me a big expert in the field. Though I would say that also financial markets, and that's my personal view, they're still very much driven by the real economy. And again, it's really very much related to the first part of the question that with those global shakes in the economy, with disruptions of many supply chains on many goods, we'll see that the restructuring of economies, it will take time. and I really hope that the war will be over

and Ukraine will get victory soon and then we will be talking about new reality in the sense that in a stable environment how we're going to be building up not only political relationships and those kind of things but also how to rebuild those supply chains and how they're going to be reflected for the economy. I would just make a humble prediction

that you know once we go over those kind of shocks that we see the economy will be kind of rebuilding pretty quickly and of course I'm not talking about Ukraine but pretty much the entire world so once the energy prices are stabilized we can kind of you know slowly progress to kind of a more stable environment, I would say in this way. And, okay, if we go back to cryptocurrencies, also, it's quite a big topic. I would just say that it's, to my point of view,

in a way, it's a niche market. And it will be this way for quite some time. and I'm not really sure that it can become more global in terms of presence in the financial market. Yeah. It feels like a lot of folks who are into technology, obviously, are into Bitcoin cryptocurrencies, but also there's some interesting parts of our conversation today.

Russia, Ukraine, obviously, lots of people talking about Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies along with other technologies. If you think of the chess world, there's actually been a number of people in the chess world who are very interested in these assets as well. And so I tend to think a lot about how usually a financial asset, I don't take real estate as an example,

it ends up being somewhat isolated. You're a real estate investor or you're not a real estate investor. It's in your portfolio or it's not. But you don't think about like, I like real estate and therefore I also like chess and this and this and this. But in some way, kind of Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies,

it does seem to attract a certain type of audience that is receptive to it early, right? And so maybe that's like an early adopter type thing. Maybe it's people who like math and science and technology. There's a lot of different ways you could cut it, but it is fascinating to see how quickly in 13 years or so, an asset that literally didn't exist now all of a sudden has this global brand

that regardless of the language, when people see that orange B, they know what it is. And it's something I'm fascinated by. I don't think we fully understand yet kind of how this has happened and where it's going, but it definitely is different than I think anything

that you and I have seen in our lifetimes. Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And yeah, I also like your notion that indeed it's kind of bubbles, right? And I think like the direct comparison is probably social media and also what happens

like information-wise, right? So we really, again, we kind of think that we see the global picture. In fact, that's not really true because many people indeed, they see the part of it depending on their bubble.

And as you say, like, for example, if you're a real estate investor, then yeah, you have some expertise in that. But if you're not, then you just have no idea what goes on there, right? So for example, just talking about real estate

here in California, where I live now for just slightly over than one year, I'm amazed to see that the real estate prices, they keep on rising. That's really interesting since many people who are not really experts on that, they say that, hey, it's a bubble. It's not possible to see that prices, they've been rising for more than 20 years. And now, even amid the pandemic, when many people actually leave California,

right because technologies also allow us to to work remotely uh still we see that real estate prices for some reason they they keep on rising even more so uh that's why yeah it's it's indeed the you know many questions to that uh what kind of bubble we're focusing on yeah it's absolutely fascinating um when when i think about uh you and you have so many different interests how do you describe yourself to people do you tell people uh i play chess i'm a grandmaster do you tell them no i'm into economics is it just i have multi uh kind of faceted interests like how do you think about your own identity it's it's quite combined you know i i like uh in the chess world i like refer to myself as a semi-professional chess player because obviously when people hear

that i'm a grandmaster they uh they think like wow apparently the guy spent all his life in chess which is which is not really true and i'm really you know thankful to chess that it allows not only focus on the chessboard and chesswise but also not compromising with with your chess career it allows you to do some other things i've spent a lot of time in education and of course doing my phd it took me six years to to accomplish this milestone so referring to myself it's It's difficult to say. Probably I would just quote my mother who likes to say that life, it's just multitasking on various levels.

And you need to be, you know, a good family member. You need to be a good professional in what you do. You need to, you know, like your hobbies and so on. So I would say, yeah, I'm very much a chess player, of course, though I don't play chess professionally and I don't coach professionally, though still I'm very much proud of my

chess career and I'm a little chess player and of course at the same time I'm an economist and professionally that's what I do, mostly economics I love it I want two recommendations from you

the first is on chess literature, is there one book or one piece of information that if somebody is like hey i want to get more serious about chess that you would highly suggest they go and uh and read uh also tough question because i guess you know as in any other field that there is no unique uh advice there there is not something that you say hey like just just read one book and you will become an expert you know such a book doesn't exist but though i uh for for the beginners those who uh just begun playing chess or who played just just a little. I normally like suggesting a book by Cacero Capablanca, who used to be a world

champion. As far as I remember, he was the third world champion. So he wrote a book which is called like... I'm trying to recall the name, but it's pretty much the book for beginners. It's called like you know self-taught manual for chess players and why I like it because it really has different steps how you understand the game so let's say if you're a beginner you can just open the book on the first pages and it explains you know how pieces how they move then later parts of the book they explain very well the basic concepts what means center and chess how to develop pieces uh what plans are more effective than the others but of course this is the book for for the beginners uh for people who are more or less advanced players uh the approach would

be completely different and to that i would say uh general suggestion is just to read literature as much as you can i mean chess literature and of course uh play the game because that's ultimately what drives people to like the game not only you know study it but also play and enjoy it because after all uh chess chess is a game it's it's not only science not only uh way to or like let's say way to self-improve it's it's also a game that you you enjoy that's awesome uh and then the second piece of uh recommendation if you will if people want to learn more about what's going on in ukraine is there one place that you would send them to uh to kind of learn more so that it's not just from the american media or international media like is there a source that you go to to check

uh that's actually excellent question and i myself uh i'm maybe lucky in this sense because i you know i i have access to various information of course i i do read and follow closely ukrainian sources i uh read like official statements journalists as well as uh uh since i know russian uh i've been following uh russian news for for many years and i know russian propaganda and i've been witnessing how different the reality is and you can imagine that you know being in ukraine and seeing like what how ukraine portrayed the some you know some occasions or some things that happen seeing like what western media say about it and seeing how russian propaganda portrays it then you're you're amazed wow like it's it's just

complete difference you see like for example again you have like a white pawn right on the chessboard and you know that it is a white pawn but then you see that the the perspective how people see this white pawn it's very different and that's why it's it's uh for me personally it's really what to say shocking to see indeed how this propaganda in Russia how effective it is because once you're told that this white pawn is a black queen and everybody tells it to you from from every tv channel you you switch then you begin believe in it and then you just don't have any critical thinking so my general advice would be just not to focus on one source but to to see various sources and frankly i've been seeing it here in u.s as well that people they just focus

on like hey we're watching let's say fox news or we are watching cnn but my approach and my suggestion would be no you you guys better watch both of them then you watch other experts then you watch something else then definitely you need to listen to to people who are uh uh for producing those news let's put it this way so to hear what they say and what they think and ultimately you just make your decision on your own who you believe in what makes more sense to you and so on that that's actually how you improve in chess because again if you switch back to the chess topic uh you can read one book and it will tell you that okay this is the good opening then you open another book and it will tell you like oh that's a complete nonsense then once you turn on

your chess engine it will say completely different story but ultimately what makes you a professional what makes you to understand things it's it's your critical thinking what you believe in and what you see when you look at the board uh in terms of how to perceive the what happens in ukraine definitely you my suggestion would be to not limit yourself to one source uh and uh just just check as much as possible if you have access to um international media if you know other languages that's that's really helpful so you just check what people say also be very critical to that that's also very important because we see that uh and i've been facing it a lot that you know some people they they really trust whatever they they're told and uh of course

it's been the case for for all the times of history i guess that you know the lies can be everywhere it doesn't mean you need to to trust whatever the first source you you hear definitely very critical because you would be amazed when you see russian propaganda you see the world completely different and you're like wow i mean maybe maybe that that makes sense or maybe it doesn't then you begin also questioning yourself and that's why i'm saying that you know limiting yourself to one source it's quite dangerous because then you uh you you might begin questioning some things like you know like a white pawn right you can say like well maybe i'm wrong maybe indeed it's not a white pawn it's something else or something like that so yeah

that's that's again it's a very general advice but it's it's i think it's very much needed so just just remember that you shouldn't focus you shouldn't limit yourself to one sort i uh i love that that's the way you answer the question because i always say that there's a critical thinking crisis underway uh globally and uh the ability to consume lots of information from different sources and then kind of synthesize it and think through it is a important skill and probably one that we should develop much better in young people around the world. I've really enjoyed speaking with you today. And I think you're so fascinating in terms of all of your different interests and the level of success that you've achieved. If people want to

follow up with you or they want to ask further questions or follow your chess career as it continues, where should we send them? Is Twitter or is there some other place that you think is best to send people? Twitter is completely fine. Also, I would suggest checking my website campaign, which is fightforchess.com.

Though it's not very active, apparently, after the elections, but still, there's a lot of information on myself, on the team that I managed to build up in just a few months of this campaign, and I'm extremely proud and humbled to see so many

experts being by my side because we share the democratic values and everything so yeah Twitter is perfectly fine although I'm more active on Facebook where you can also find me by my first and last name I also

prefer what I do in chess as well I prefer to use my real name not like you know some as in chess we have a joke like it's like you play some pepperoni cheese or something some nonsense you play a nickname instead of playing a real guy so yeah facebook twitter and again fight

for chess.com those are perfect sources to reach out to me i love it chess and uh in the bitcoin world plenty of uh pseudonymous names that uh make you laugh is uh is one definite similarity awesome well listen thank you so much for your time today i really enjoyed it uh and i think people will get an absolute, a lot of learning and also a lot of interest kind of out of your experience and our conversation today. So thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you enjoyed this one. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to transition into a brand new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head

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