The Pomp Podcast - #1159 Shane Mac | Private, Secure Texting Disrupts iMessage

Episode Date: February 16, 2023

Shane Mac is the co-founder & CEO of XMTP Labs. In this conversation, we talk about decentralized messaging, what exactly happens when you send an encrypted message, how XMTP hopes to build the protocol that various applications & technologies can be built on top to empower private direct messaging. This is an important problem, and they are working diligently to come up with a solution that can usher in global adoption of private messaging.  ======================= Announcing LYCEUM | Miami, a day-long event on March 4th in Miami Beach hosted by Pomp. We’re gathering an explosive group of experts to engage in a series of bold discussions, covering topics from investing, emerging tech, longevity, space exploration, entertainment and more.The speaker lineup includes names such as investing legend Cathie Wood, NYT bestselling author Vivek Ramaswamy, billionaire Christian Angermayer, master of Contrarian Thinking Codie Sanchez, Modern Wisdom host Chris Williamson plus many more. Listeners will receive an exclusive 40% discount on VIP and Insider Pass tickets with code POMP40.  General Admission tickets are free of charge. Spots are limited so head to lyceummiami.com to buy your ticket today. ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 200,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/ =======================

What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. We have no advertisers on this podcast, so it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. Shane Mack is the co-founder and CEO of XMTP Labs.

In this conversation, we talk about decentralized messaging. What exactly happens when you send an encrypted message? How XMTP hopes to build the protocol that various applications and other types of technologies are built on top to empower private direct messaging. This is an important problem, and Shane and his team are working diligently to come up with a solution that will work in ushering global adoption of private messaging. After you get done listening to this conversation, jump on Twitter and let us know what you liked, what you didn't like, what you agree with, and what you disagree with. The feedback is always helpful and helps us improve the listening experience. Here is my conversation with Shane Mack. This episode is brought to you by Accenture.

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All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Shane here with me. I thought a great place to start is there's this big, big problem in the crypto world that most people don't understand unless you are an active user of many of the products or applications. And it's this private direct messaging, the ability for one wallet to communicate with another. You guys are building a solution for it, but explain like what is the problem? Why is this such a big thing that no one has seemed to be able to crack yet? Yeah, it's a good question. Let's go back to how it started. So a few years ago, you know, I'd been in messaging for almost 15 years now and building on top of mostly Web2 platforms, SMS, Messenger, WhatsApp, and seeing the whole rise of kind of centralized messaging.

And Robert Leshner, who was the CEO and the co-founder of Compound Labs, probably one of the biggest DeFi platforms. 2020, so right around pandemic time, he came to Matt and I, and we were just kind of thinking about ideas. I was in a lockup from my last company to get acquired. Matt wasn't sure what he wanted to do yet because his last company got acquired by Kraken. And we both are passionate about communication. And I didn't really see it. I was like, why would you talk to a wallet, et cetera? And Robert said to us, listen, guys, I have $11 billion in a smart contract.

I know every single person's address, and I can't send a message to them. He's like, imagine a bank had every customer in their bank, and they couldn't send them an email. He's like, it's a huge problem. He's like, I need to be able to communicate. I need to tell them about staking, liquidation events coming, new regulation that's happening with Compound. The government's probably going to have regulation that they're going to require us to send to say, hey, you're an investor in this new DeFi protocol and pool, like, here's the documents. None of that exists. He's like, trillions of dollars are sent between wallet addresses every day. And you can't

send an email. Because what ultimately his problem was, is there was a product. And basically, these were users of that product. And it's the company, or the product can't communicate with those users. Usually, when people think of private messaging, they're thinking like, two random users on the internet want to communicate with each other outside of companies products etc but this actually started because it was somebody saying hey i have all these people using this there's tons of economic value here but i can't communicate with the people who are essentially the customers or the product users huge problem and i think easier to understand why that's a problem versus maybe two individuals who just want to communicate with each other

totally i think the peer-to-peer use case is actually kind of hard to see right now you're like whatsapp works great i message works great because your identity is already there so the question is, is there a new identity? And if there is, communication protocols usually follow. And I think what's happening is the wallet address is becoming the new identity and there's new interactions where that is the only thing that's used. So in this scenario, Robert Lesher didn't have your email. A lot of Web3 and DeFi and all of the crypto space, actually the wallet is the login. That's the whole point. You own it, your assets, now you can own your communication with that wallet login. And I think what's happening is whenever you have that new identity pop up,

there's new relationships that form and those new relationships enable a new communication protocol and that's kind of like where we're at in the shift and i think it started in a very b2c type use case like i'm a defy protocol and i need to talk to these 12 000 wallet holders because the only thing i have are people giving me money and their wallet address how can i talk to them and that really kind of like was the spark of the idea and around the same time mike shinoda from lincoln park was on a clubhouse back in 2020 when we're all just hanging out you know everyone's sitting at home drinking wine and you're like what's gonna happen in the world and he's like talking about the day he got rugged by facebook they had the largest facebook audience in the

world at one time and he was like all of a sudden i couldn't reach any fans and when he saw the nft he didn't see like oh make money on this art and stuff he saw hey this nft gives me a wallet address that address is public on a ledger if i have a million people that own my nft can anyone take that audience from me can anyone take those million addresses that are like have a basically a connection and a consent mechanism to say hey i have a tie to this community i own your token and he's like no and that was like the spark when matt called me he's like hey something's happening here with this d5 stuff but also now this nft stuff's happening where i think there's a new relationship that is going to form and that was really what it was then and today i think it's

growing a lot where i see it as a whole different mechanism by which the next whatsapps of the world are going to be built on top of decentralized technology like an xmtp but back then that's really how it started was solving that problem so when you kind of zoom out for a second right now i'm going to use the term crypto to describe an entire industry but there's obviously various protocols there's different d5 products there's kind of all the the fragmentation that you would expect to kind of pop up when there's new technology and innovation happening where did you guys kind of initially start right there's bitcoin there's ethereum and then there's like this long tail of other uh smart contract platforms then there's all the products like

how did you guys think about initially starting and just saying like how does this work totally i go back to the robert lesnar story and really the d5 world and the nft kind of thing so we started in the evm world but we're not on chain messaging because it doesn't scale and it's actually not that private or secure and so it's using the public private key pair of the wallets to enable communication between the wallets but because it's not on chain it's not dependent on evm so we could do it on bitcoin on salon it doesn't really matter but this is really an important data point i think because um uh for those that don't know you can put messages on a blockchain yeah right we started there actually and and there are uh messages that are you know

stupid things that people kind of put in and it's funny whatever uh people have written uh inscriptions into uh various blockchains because they're announcing uh uh they want to kind of cement the company milestone or something like that there's even been cases where i think in china uh there was some freedom of speech and uh there was like an incident on a college campus around sexual assault and one of the people kept getting censored so they literally just wrote it into the ethereum blockchain and became this like you know kind of national uh thing but you guys are not actually doing that because you said it's not private i'm assuming it's expensive to some degree on some of these changes it doesn't really scale okay explain kind of like why can't you do

it on the blockchain even though you could write messages on the blockchain totally and people are actually doing it where like you know almost like when you send an nft and you can put metadata on it right they're doing it in that way but when you think about privacy and security and if you care about that and when we talk to every developer in the industry all of them are like i want private and secure messaging and if you start thinking about the metadata that comes along with that so who's talking to who when our message is sent all that stuff is on a blockchain and to make that private you really can't use a blockchain to do that and so it's been very intentional to actually use the wallets and the public private key pair as the mechanism by which

you're sending and verifying who you are but the messages are sent in an off-chain way to protect privacy and security and to be able to scale when you look at how it's built today what exactly is happening so do i have my wallet which has all of my assets and then i've got like a separate inbox where i'm receiving messages and sending them or how is like the user experience of the wallet holder yeah so there's over 250 applications already built on top of xmtp and you can think of it like an email client an imessage client i actually have this app on my phone that i use for xmtp that is literally i message for xmtp and it looks like i message and it is i message and what's changing is the application layer can be anything. So it can look like an email client. It can look

like an iMessage client. It can look like a DM client. We're the entire DM layer of Lens. So if you use any Lens ecosystem app, it's like a decentralized Twitter. The DM layer is XMTP, and it allows you to communicate within anyone within the Lens ecosystem, but in this world, with any wallet in the entire ecosystem. So let's take the XMTP client that you have that looks like iMessage on your phone that's a company called Converse that built that okay so Converse um if I'm using that and I say I want to send a message to you what's happening I type into my phone right what is kind of the the uh sequence of events between when I type into the phone and you actually receive the message totally so first off is identity so you're picking an identity and

mapping it to your wallet address usually you don't have to you can use the zrx address that's fine um i'm typing in chain mac.eth it's resolving to my wallet address then i'm typing up a message in the app the app is then encrypting it it's fully end-to-end encrypted and we want to like shoot for signal protocol level encryption right like that's really the goal here is to get to that level so that um everyone has that out of the box when they plug into the network it's sent through the nodes the node operators are actually where you get to where it becomes decentralized and so they're delivering the message to the other client and the private key on the other side is the only thing that can access the message so the private key is actually the decryption mechanism and the

the thing that's changing here is in the past take whatsapp for example log in with whatsapp is their identity their app their servers right in this world you can use any identity that master wallet address any application in a decentralized network like xmc so any identity means that uh let's say for example um facebook for a while it became a huge thing that uh you couldn't get a four letter uh identification anymore so facebook.com slash whatever username uh you would have to know somebody at the company to get four letters right uh five letters if it was available you could have it if it was six letters whatever but four letters or less they wouldn't give it to you because they decided that that wasn't a identity that they thought

was applicable to their service here whether it's one letter 20 letters whatever name dot lens dot ens as long as you just map it to the wallet address exactly you can use it now and it's decentralized so the ens community dot eth right the lens community i'm shane mac dot lens the unstoppable domains like it doesn't matter and so you just have to know what it is right? But then you own that and you own that identity. And I think that's a pretty major shift where you can take your identity with you. And if you think about like, what's really interesting is the same way a wallet can access your assets in the way we're constructed and how this works, any application can access your communication. And if today you're using an app

and the only way to get your messages is through that same app, you don't own your communication. And then through the application itself, like you're using this one specifically for this one client, but really the idea is that you could have any client anywhere built. Now, can I go across clients, right? So like one of the things that I think when people start understanding the silos in finance, they're like, if I have PayPal and you have Cash App, I can't send you money, right? So there's these siloed kind of payment systems. obviously the promise of some of these technologies like bitcoin lightning network other platforms is now there's interoperability so if you're using client a and somebody else using client b if they're both plugged into lightning network for example then they can

send between those platforms is the same thing true with messaging here and across these different applications totally that's exactly right it's it's actually the magic of the whole thing it's a portable inbox so when i go to the lens app there's one called orb that i like it's awesome It's a beautiful app. Click DMs. It's the same DMs that show up in Converse. And the moment that you sign in with your key and the private key decrypts and you can take your messages with you to any application, I think is the aha moment where people go, oh, yeah, I have 12 messaging apps on my phone. I can't get anything out of there.

I don't own the relationships. I don't own the network. I don't own the data. I don't own the identity. And I'm stuck within this ecosystem and I can't take anything with me. And that's kind of the fundamental shift is can we build? a global private secure messaging like network and protocol where thousands of applications can be built in the next whatsapps the next twilio's the next send grids the next billion dollar companies

are built on top of xmtp now you said that the messages go through the various nodes uh what nodes are those so today xmtp labs our company runs the nodes we're working really hard to get decentralized so that other parties are running nodes and have a testnet running by h2 and at that point, the nodes will be ran by third parties delivering, you know, they're just servers that are delivering messages, but they're incentivized by the applications paying into the ecosystem to fund the nodes that are actually a decentralized network to deliver the messages and make sure that they're delivered in a secure way. And so the idea would be that me as a user, let's say a sender of a message, you as a recipient, we're not picking which node path or anything like that.

it's literally just the nodes are able to get the message from me to you. And even if at some point it's intercepted or delivered to somebody else, it's all encrypted. So without the private keys from your wallet, no one else can read that message. Exactly. Yeah. Well, how do you think about the response from the signals, from the iMessages, from the various messaging platforms like a WhatsApp, whatever, when they see these types of technologies? Are they interested in them? Are they trying to figure it out? Or is it just so far outside of what they do that you know it's kind of classic innovators dilemma no i actually see it there we're like so inspired by signal and even whatsapp is built on the signal protocol right but because they're own the app

whatsapp that's where they get all the metadata where signal actively chooses not to collect metadata and same with us we actually have a really strong intention around what we don't collect right what we don't see and i think that's very important at the protocol level to let that happen the application level but i see a future take this like signal just got rid of sms so they just threw out sms they used to support it so you could get your sms messages and signal but they're unencrypted it's a shitty old technology but it is interoperable right eu is coming in with pretty strict new privacy laws and whether you agree with them or not if you watch the signal kind of president meredith she had a great talk about how it's kind of like encroaching on privacy and it's

It's really kind of like coming against the ability to have an interoperable and private layer. So she's making the claim that the privacy-enhancing regulation, from the view of the legislators, is actually hurting privacy in some weird way. Explain that a little bit more. But let me break this down with Signal, because what I think is interesting is if they want to have an interoperable layer where they can communicate to any identity that is more owned by people because they believe in security, privacy, and ownership, then having a secure layer that's not SMS, that could be XMTP, that Signal app could just plug into. And now the messages that are through the XMTP network or to wallets could be right in the inbox alongside the people within your Signal application makes tons of sense to me. Or even iMessage, the green bubble in the future, to me, if we're successful, this has nothing to do with Web3. Web3 is the starting point because there's a real problem and there's a new identity that needs communication. But why shouldn't iMessage plug into XMTP and get more secure, more encrypted, and more decentralized communication so people can own it?

Imagine a gray bubble in the future instead of a green bubble alongside your blue bubble. That is actually the more secure way to reach any other application outside of the iMessage ecosystem. When you send messages through this type of kind of messaging protocol, do I have to pay for the messages? Is there some sort of cost to it or is it being essentially subsidized by the various applications and they're the one really kind of paying for the ability to communicate? Yeah, today we hope to always have free for users. like they shouldn't have to pay to communicate and the applications will fund the node operations to scale i think the business models live in the mass senders the spam mitigation how to disincentivize spam using economics and if you get into like um if i want to send a hundred thousand messages to

a bunch of wallet addresses there's a new consent mechanism that should be invented in the future that we've actually researched we're working on a lot um we call it postage that i think is really where the monetization comes from, which is people like marketers wanting to reach your attention. There should be a monetization model built into that. I love having these conversations because I'm an investor and I don't even know everything you guys are working on. So I'm getting live updates right now. That's great. This is my investor update. Yeah, perfect. Explain this postage concept a little bit more. Yeah. I mean, think about it really simply as we're going from a privacy world to a consent world. The past was privacy and there's a lot of laws around you got

to use ads to get people's data get them to opt in and then send them messages right and people spend all their money to get access to that in this world the addresses are actually public so what actually matters now and i think is where to innovate is giving people more control over their inbox by putting in consent layers and so it's already happening developers have built token gated chat developers have built actually full filtering so you can say if um you don't have one eth in your wallet you can't reach my wallet and they started to add in all these things but in the future, you can imagine the protocol very simply could have a dynamic fee for each wallet based on the value of that wallet to the sender. And if you want to send 500,000 messages and take

someone's attention, there's a cost to that. And that is how the ecosystem, much like you think today in kind of like the way the ad networks work, but we don't want to ever do ads. We want to actually invent a new model that is around consent that gives people more control, but at the same time values their attention so i think there's a whole new kind of mechanism here that gives people a lot more control over their attention and the protocol itself can like value more specifically value each wallet versus like hey it cost you know mailchimp 10 000 emails cost this yeah actually every wallet has a unique value so is there even a way that you could like split like it costs x dollars or whatever to send 100 000 messages and then if they're red you pay you

know x plus 20 and if they act it's x plus 40 or something because like you really do have the ability to know who it is but then you see the actions like the actions end up being you know quote unquote on chain and so you could almost uh i think of it kind of like sending emails is one thing but like really the valuable ones the ones that are opened but even the more valuable ones ones where people clicked totally and so you could almost create like some sort of metered ability uh and again these businesses paying for this stuff right but like they're likely to want to pay a lot more if i know hey somebody's going to open the email they're going to click on that link and they're going to go to my website that's a way different conversation than like maybe they

open it maybe they don't but i'm paying either way right totally there's so many things to innovate on in that layer um especially like the relationship that's formed you could imagine if i voted for a dow imagine there's like a yes no button we call them content types inside the message and you knew that i voted on chain for the for a thing that someone asked me to vote for that's a very valuable interaction and so the cost of that can be very different you could even innovate the other way which is imagine people were like i really wanted to talk to you i'm not going to take your money right you can innovate both ways where almost like staking you could almost give it back etc i think the most important thing though is the protocol itself it's very

important for what we don't collect because the red states and when you get into all that area it's very uh kind of we have to be very intentionable intentional about what applications can see of metadata and what they can't see and what we can't see like because if you're just giving all of that metadata away at the um at the application level that might not be a good thing and so we spend a lot of time at the protocol level really trying to just like keep privacy and security for at the forefront but then the applications i think that layer might live on top of it where they can decide based on actions that happen on chain or more meaningful actions or consent or they say this is a great message whatever can create the economics it's interesting

because basically at the protocol level if you guys aren't collecting any of this information you don't have access to it but if an application basically is able to collect it kind of before it gets to the protocol then they have access to whatever they're collecting and so as a user if you're worried about privacy or really want to spend time making sure that you have private communications you not just have to worry about what is the protocol but you have to understand what is the application layer that i'm using and also i'm assuming you have to have some understanding of what is the application layer that the recipient of my message is using because there may be some way for that application to be collecting metadata as well right exactly i mean

imagine a future that is enabled by xmtp so the world can have a private and secure messaging layer and someone buys a company and one individual can now read your unencrypted dms that can't happen you can just leave you can take all of your encrypted messaging with you and leave that application and i think that's a very powerful like um shift in the world that puts power and ownership back to people um talk a little bit about what some of the use cases are like why do people need to message these wallets you mentioned kind of the b2c use case of hey i have a product there's much people using it i need to communicate with them i don't have an ability to do that you guys help solve that problem what are some of the other use cases that

like an individual user would say i need to be able to communicate either with wallets or i want to use this type of protocol for those communications totally i think the first one go back to the b2c use case if you look at how the mobile world played out messaging and communication was actually the entire retention layer so every application couldn't get retention messaging actually was the retention layer and i think that same phase is happening right now daps are out there people have a lot of users if you look at the metrics of the last three years people logging in with email is going down people logging in with wallet is going up so as wallets become the identity people want to control their identity and the daps and applications actually want the

the wallet address as your login you need a way to communicate because you need a way to get people to come back to your application and i think that notification that notification re-engagement layer is actually probably one of the like most powerful use cases that every application within the next two years in web 3 crypto etc will be able to re-engage and have a relationship with users that they just don't have today and the you know the other ones are like way more interesting and cool there's a lot of people otc swap which built one where it's actually trading nfts but you can do the trading and swapping inside of the conversation i actually feel like crypto isn't that big and the owning your conversations could be bigger than owning your assets

and the conversation drives commerce more than commerce drives the conversation and i think that's always been true and the missing piece of crypto is that the conversation is happening in chaos all over and you see all these public wallet is this your public wall who's this public wall people just throwing zero x addresses all over discord and shit and i think the trust that it can enable to allow for these new types of use cases where you're doing commerce as part of the conversation and it's more trusted is a is a in a huge world someone else just built a loan application and the loan is actually done all through the conversation but because the content types they can yes no on change execute the loan within the chat which is really cool to

see like which is really what a lot of the legacy companies are trying to do right they are trying to enhance chat functionality they're trying to drastically reduce the friction for the person who's on the company side of the chat to be able to execute different things one of the most fascinating statistics uh and i'm gonna get the numbers wrong so i don't want to misspeak but uh peloton actually sells hundreds of millions of dollars worth of pelotons via their chat which you would think like wait what do you mean what ends up happening is that most of these companies historically have looked at the chat functionality on a website as a customer service mechanism so someone's got a problem they write in they're thinking about potentially buying something

they've got a question you know whatever can't find their order you know all the things that that people use the chat for. But Peloton, and I'm sure other companies, but they're the one that I'm familiar with, actually looked at it as, no, this is our sales team. And so when you write in, we want you to buy things. And they looked at it as more of like an offensive opportunity. And so they were able to drastically enhance the sales experience

and conversion in that chat. Well, I'm sure they were doing all kinds of stuff on the back end to figure out how the hell do we get people who are in this chat from our side and are kind of helping to educate our customers. one click to be allowed to do sales convert whatever but you're still going through a legacy system right and so even though let's say i'm on the company side you're the customer you're sitting there chatting and okay you're going to purchase now like it's still going through our legacy stuff if i can usually it's a link to the website right whatever right like

now all of a sudden if we can basically execute that sale right there in the chat it's the virtual comparison to like, you're at the store, I come over with a little register, right? Like an Apple store. There's no leaving. Once they decide that you're going to buy, like they come into you, you just stand right here at the table and just execute. And so it's very similar, I think, in terms of this ability of you're not sending them and hoping that they convert on the website or going through the payment flow or anything. It can happen right there in the chat. It's pretty powerful. Hey guys, what's going on? I hope that you're enjoying this conversation, but I wanted to interrupt for a quick second and tell you about a brand new conference that I'm hosting on March

4th at the Miami Beach Convention Center. The event is called Lyceum Miami, and tickets are completely free for anyone who wants to come. I'm bringing together many of the most popular guests from the podcast over the last couple of years. Some of the guest speakers that we've already announced are people like Vivek Ramaswamy from Strive Asset Management, or Delian and Mike Solana from Founders Fund, Chris Williamson from the Modern Wisdom Podcast, Cody Sanchez from Contrarian Thinking, and billionaire Christian Agermeyer, among many others. I've got a number of amazing surprise guests as well, some that you definitely will not expect, and others that come from walks of life that you will be scratching your head

as to how I even got them to show up. But come check out Lyceum Miami on March 4th. The Lyceum was a public gym in Athens, Greece, where people used to come together, talk about ideas, and debate topics that were important to society. I want to meet people in person, in real life, once again, after three years of a hiatus from real-life events. And so, I'm hosting the event, and as I mentioned, anyone from anywhere can come to this event completely for free. All you need to do is go to LyceumMiami.com, and you'll be able to pick up a free general admission ticket. Make sure you claim your ticket in order to get in through the doors. Lyceum Miami is going to be a great time, so come check it out.

Come hang out with me, many of the popular guests from the podcast, and other like-minded individuals. Lyceum Miami, March 4th, Miami Beach Convention Center. I hope to see you there. All right, let's get back into this conversation. Totally. And I think your Apple Store analogy is very cool because the wallet is the Apple Store of crypto and Web3. And what's changed is that the commerce is now enabled inside the wallet and communication is going to be as well. And I think if you think about the wallets as the gateway to commerce, you can think about the wallets as also the key to communication. And the fact that those are together, that's where this all changes.

When you look at some of these decentralized social networking that's popping up, there's one now I'm going to mispronounce, but Nostra, however you want to pronounce it, that's been in the top 10 of the social network downloads. There's a number of other ones that have popped up over the years. There's obviously Lens and others. What are they getting right and what do they still need to improve on? Like when you kind of look at it, because you guys are a messaging layer and ultimately kind of wallet to wallet communication is a form of social networking, right? It's kind of private, you know, direct messaging. But it seems like many of these platforms are trying to take it a step further and create more of one to many communications and really kind of build up the social network functionality. What do you think they're getting right?

And what do you think that they still need to kind of enhance or improve on? Totally. And, you know, we work with Lens directly and we're the DM layer of Lens. So when you use any Lens app and you go to send a DM, you can send a DM to anyone within the Lens ecosystem, but you can also send a DM to shanemac.eth. And that kind of shows you the interoperability of the whole space. But when you look at the space, I think the first thing on the what is it getting right is it's following a macro trend that people want. when you see noster in the top 10 in the app store i think people are grasping that they want to own their like network and their identity and be able to take it with them and not have it in the hands

of a centralized like single company especially with everything happening around facebook and twitter etc when you see one person buy a company take it private and like they get to make any decision for that company whether you like it or not it's like damn that's that's crazy that one person can actually own all this and read my dms that i've sent since 2007 you know it's kind of like one of those moments in history and so the fact that these are all popping up i think people are starting to grasp it and the idea that you can own and control your identity your network and your communication is a pretty radical idea that wasn't possible without the infrastructure that's been built here the thing that we're getting wrong and i'm not going to say any of

the networks is the ux is shit yeah the user experience because you the wallet logins weren't built for mobile the app stores aren't playing along well apple doesn't really see that yet the consumer use cases of messaging and social and owning your communication and having a better sms than you have an iMessage like they're not there yet so the app stores are you know making it hard to use wallets and publish things and the wallet addresses are having a hard time doing the logins and the deep linking between apps is broken i mean it's i'll like punch myself in the face trying to log into these apps with like 10 different signatures and you're like why is this so hard. And it just reminds me though, of, you know, I've been in technology since the beginning

of like the social era and it feels like that, right? It feels like Twitter is just on SMS and you're like, I can't search anything. I can't do anything. I'm just tweeting to the ether here at two, three, two, three, two. And some dudes responded to me on Twitter in 2006, like we're there. Um, but because we went through this like golden era of amazing mobile applications, it kind of feels like we're starting over and it's really painful the user experience and user interfaces i've said for a long time now are atrocious and i've always wondered is it because the design talent hasn't yet kind of gotten excited and moved over uh that might have been true three four five years ago now i see a number of very talented designers who are starting to

come over a lot of product people totally things that like you're like okay you know how to build products now can you figure out this specific problem let's see but like you have the skill set and the experience but there's also like what i'll call like um some maybe like infrastructure type challenges so for example human readable domains versus uh kind of the ox um wallet addresses like i was talking to a group last night and i literally was like dude i don't know why people won't say it but like there's times where i go to send a transaction my heart's pumping a little bit right you know like you know palms are weak or palms are sweaty or whatever right them line like you're like i hope this shit gets there i hope i didn't make a mistake and so

obviously if even people who are doing this on a day-to-day basis are dealing with that like it's got to improve and so i do wonder how much of that is like one designer or one product team can actually make some of these changes i think what you're talking about like definitely we we need improvement but also it seems like we almost need kind of ecosystem buy-in to really kind of shift some of these as well to make it so that somebody off the street who doesn't know anything about technology can use these products and it's seamless easy to do um and ultimately i think will just lead to kind of more usage more adoption right totally and it's happening i mean if you look at the rainbow team or you look at the orb app on lens um there's there's a lot of other apps

on lens that are actually really good as well and the entire ecosystem of apps is starting to get a lot better the problem is actually in the setup and the onboarding into the world so the apps gotten better now the designers i think have come and there's a lot of great applications but the start to i'm now sending my first message of go to ens and go tell me how long it takes you to get an ens name right it's like what is ens what are there three steps for why am i waiting two minutes to verify this what's a transaction how do i get eat to my wallet to buy this stupid name like there's so the gap is so big and i watch it all the time versus that part of it i think has to shift identity the ability to use a wallet and the ability to send a message or send an asset

i think will all come together i think the wallets are doing a pretty decent job like starting to innovate here but that has to happen rainbow did a great job with the ns name so now inside of the rainbow wallet you can easily buy an ens name and it actually feels like really slick so it's cool to see them integrate like an open protocol like ens into their app with the great ux but you still have to go through the entire hurdle of getting your ethereum into the wallet and like all that so until the kind of onboarding is improved i think that's the thing that we need to spend a lot of time on yeah the other piece um feels like uh social networks have to be driven by density like you you need the network there right there's a whole point of why you come and uh we've seen

seen a number of networks explode and then kind of falter right and explode in hindsight actually isn't nearly that big what do you think is kind of that tipping point like when you guys have seen some of these applications is it or there's like an aha moment right i think slack's aha moment was like 2500 messages between a team right and then it's like they're not leaving right facebook uh the tours i came across 10 people in seven days or seven people in 10 days whatever it was that you friended it was like 85 likely that you're staying as a retained user have you guys seen anything around those data points in terms of messaging uh whether it's through social networks applications anything like that where people once they start using it they're not going to leave

yeah it's an interaction success within the first uh like 25 seconds of activating the inbox interesting so like do i even get a response right and so we've actually coming from the the social and messaging world. It's kind of like we're obsessed with network effects and interaction success internally as our driving force. And mapping the interactions to the overlap of communities is something we take very seriously. So if I know that Lens is in the ecosystem, it's all public data. So in this world, I can actually know the overlap of Lens wallets to the ENS community. And I can walk into the ENS community and say, by the way, 35% of the people in the NS community are already on XMTP.

And so you actually know where those overlaps happen. And I think you can build network effects where you can increase interaction success in a proactive way that's never been possible because of on-chain data. And that's a very huge opportunity, I think, to build better network effects where you don't end up in the like,

I never got a response. I just got on this network. I sent a message. No one's wrote me back. It didn't really work. And I think that's where you can end up if you were just like, I'm just going for wallet addresses.

Or yeah, we have 5 million wallets and you can spin up wallets in an hour. Yeah. So you really have to, I think, get into that. The interaction success works right when you get on it. You know that another person's on the network. We can suggest that much like the social networks, you know, they were like, here's your 10 friends. The Twitter was like, here's people to follow. You had to like get that right. And I think we need to also get that right with knowing the ecosystems you're a part of so that, you know, you're in a trusted, I know that you're also a person with the ENS or you're also in the POAP community or you're also in the Lens

community and making sure that you're connecting those people to have a quick interaction success. So they're like, oh, this inbox works. Yeah, I think it's very important. What are the challenges with this? Like the risks of people starting to use these types of protocols, right? Like you guys are obviously building one that is probably the most popular so far. But like what is the downsides or what do you guys see as those risks associated with it? You know, we focus solely on how can we make the developers insanely successful?

I almost say like, how can we make it rugless? the risk for me is actually more of just like why i'm doing it which is i spent 15 years building on top of twitter and facebook and sms and every protocol in the world and i spent 15 years getting rugged and we built just was our first company we grew to 100 million people in two years in 2007 to 2010 and we were like probably the first api partner that ever like took twitter data out of twitter to show like how you can map a social address book and blackberry bought it in 2010 and it was a meaningful acquisition you know black it was 45 million bucks blackberry bought it cash it was a good like thing it was only a 12 person team small but like that moment

of going through history we had just went through a lawsuit with linkedin they seasoned assistance on the api twitter changed the api regulations twice they cut off the app developers and then i did this again because i'm i don't know naive and just i just love messaging and then i built business application that was the first ever launch on facebook messenger whatsapp sms etc for the last nine years i was the ceo of assist and like i think if we do that to developers we will lose and we have to be able to build trust with developers by making them not have to trust us and i really obsess over that relationship because i've been there and i watched the business models change twitter kind of started as an open protocol and then it became the hardest company

to work with as a developer facebook changed everything on us and then i have whole teams trying to keep up or you're getting new api docs or new laws and doing that for that long i think over that community and how hard it was it needs to be the exact opposite it needs to be like thousands of developers and the way that we structure this makes it permissionless anyone can plug in and rugless and people are like this is an amazing protocol to build with and for me losing that spirit or that relationship or that trust within the deaf community to me is the biggest risk of the whole thing yeah and why i'm doing it like there's no point i i don't want to do what i did like i had to deal with in the past like i'm here because there's a way to build an

ecosystem because of new technology that enables a decentralized back-end so the next twilio's and whatsapps and biggest companies in the world i get to meet those founders today and watch them build the biggest companies in a way that wasn't possible 10 years ago yeah what else do you guys do to build trust with the developer community i mean we spend a ton of time here we're at every single event building with them we have a whole devx team internally that is like trying to build widgets or protocols or put out documents around like best practices stuff like that design team is doing design passes of how the brand should look for other developers i do a monthly call with how to fundraise for the developers i'm like we need to get these companies

funded right the biggest problem they have isn't i can't build product they're actually all great product teams they're like how do i raise money for the product and so i'm sitting there being like doing i did a one with like 35 people showed up at the last one and it was all the some of the best founders we have and i'm just doing q a what are we struggling with raising money especially in this market right and so helping them build legitimate projects turn them into real companies and just like then they really trust us and we're enabling and building those connections and i say it's not up to us to convince developers it's up to us to connect developers and i think we're more about connecting the ecosystem as well as the investors as well as the talent as well as

ourselves than we are about convincing when you think about building the business i think what's really interesting is you and matt have spent a bunch of time building a number of different companies uh with great success like what are some of the principles or or uh methodology that you used as you went to go build this company um that's a good question i mean first off is like we are kind of obsessed with culture and the way we build the company i mean we're a remote company but we also are trying to build a company that is a very productive but amazing place to work and so all of our kind of perks or the way we think about structuring things is very much about giving people time back not around like fluffy perks and fancy offices what's an example uh we

give everyone a personal assistant and so i did this in my last company i was i was nsf trying to hire people out of uh facebook and twitters and you know my vcs are like you need free lunch and you need to do all these nap rooms and whatever and i was like i'm spending so much money on lunch and then i decided to go remote first in 2014 and half the company was remote from then on because they left san francisco it's kind of my hack i'd hire them from twitter downtown because they wanted to leave and i'd let them leave and i i called my assistant i was like hey do you have other assistants that i can offer so we have one assistant for every like five employees and everyone can use it but also for their personal lives so if they wanted to book

an airbnb for their family book flights for their family find babysitters order groceries on instacart whatever they want to do their life doesn't stop at work so how can i help them actually take care of their life so they can just be more focused at work and that ended up being a really powerful thing and so we do the same thing here we really focus on just like giving people things that make them more productive give them more time and more well-being um and just focus on doing great work and having like that kind of environment of a culture um and that's what you guys do now is you it's uh one for every five employees or how do you think it's more vague than that right now everyone has access to an assistant um that you can use for anything and

then we scale it up based on like it's funny that it's trying to teach leadership as well like i'm very much around leadership is about creating other leaders and what that means is giving control away and giving decision making away and trying i think i'm successful at this role if i I make the least amount of decisions and really having that ethos. And it's funny watching people struggle to use an assistant. It's really hard for people to give work away. They're like, I'm paid to do this work. I should like, I'm like, no, no, no.

If you don't like, if you want to focus on this work and give that away, why should you do that work? And just, it kind of is almost a forcing function to try to teach the behaviors we want to see. But it's, it's a struggle. People like won't, you know, like I have to remind people like, Hey, you should, you should let someone else do that. Yeah. and it's cool to kind of like practice that with people what are some other things like

giving everyone access to an assistant that you guys do that may be different than other companies um i'm i'm really um kind of intentional about cadence and focus like in a pretty obsessive amount and so every monday since the company started i write a weekly dispatch with me and matt and now with our exec team and we write this dispatch on last week this week and then kind of what we're seeing in the industry but the most important thing is you know we're 89 dispatches in and we've never missed a week since the day with me and matt started and it was just me and matt and i just take those like written communication weekly cadence and everything in a weekly drumbeat uh very seriously and i think it matters and i think that creating that momentum

and cadence for everyone to just like really feel like we can control that we can't control if the market adopts how long it's going to take etc but we can control if we're clearly communicating every week and like never missing a week when people receive that weekly dispatch what do you hope they do with it is it just like for your information is it uh something that they can then use actionably that week like what's kind of the desired impact to highlight and see the impact they're having on the organization is probably the first and foremost. I want people to see the orgs or the teams they're working on. We know we're 32 people, 32 people. I want people to see the teams and the orgs they're working on and the impact it's having. And I usually try to tie that

to the partners and what the developers are doing with what we're building. I think tying together the developers to our impact and work is the thing I'd spend most of my time trying to kind of tie together. But we're focused on a lot of what we're not doing. I'd spend a lot of time telling like really you know our goal is to be the default communication protocol for web3 that's our goal for the year and to decentralize our operations and it's that focus and a lot of the people i think are like doing tons of stuff and you have logins and identity and all this stuff like we're just a private and secure dm layer like let's be the best in the world at that because messaging is the largest layer of the past internet and i think it's going to be the same when you look at

um the people that you're hiring are they young people people with more experience are they kind of crypto native are they coming from web 2 like where have you guys found success and what's interesting to me is let's say you were hiring all of the above right you put those people together and like i think the public narrative is that the crypto native person is very different than like the web 2 native person and so when you put them together it might be difficult right or even somewhat abrasive in terms of their views of the world or how they operate or their experience level or whatever like what have you guys found with 30 people like you probably have enough of data points now to kind of understand some of these dynamics totally i think one of the most

interesting things is i hired a head of people as our like 11th hire and people would usually tell me that's way too early um and she's phenomenal and i did it and you know matt and i like talked about it because i was like we have to be able to be an education company to get people out of web 2 into web 3 to be really successful and we're doing communication we're not just a financial thing like i i wasn't you know in crypto for 10 years building financial applications i was in communication building messaging for 10 years and now i'm doing the same thing and i think bringing uh that experience with crypto native people and actually how they work together um our first uh value at our company is curiosity we celebrate what we don't know not what we do

the reason is because it accelerates learning and it accelerates vulnerability to be more open that all this is new and no one has any clue what they're doing so as long as we start there you can build a culture of people being able to say i don't know people can be able to raise their hand and speak up when they actually have a real problem people have a culture of actually bring me the problems not the solutions because the other way actually doesn't allow people to end up working on the problems and so we focus a lot on that trust and bonding within the culture so that we can hire actually anyone and we have i think hired young we were we were like man we're we call ourselves a mature startup just because like i'm not in essa i'm not even in

miami i don't have a loft i'm not like it's not that at all it's like we're here to do great work um i'm not hanging out after work a lot with a lot of people i mean we're kind of remote but but it's not like a me 25 in San Francisco at 9 p.m. Like, hey guys, let's shoot Papa shot in the office. Like, it's just not that kind of company. And I think I would call it a mature startup. And then our last offsite we just did out in Long Beach. And I was like, dang, this dude's like 24 per shot.

He's here, this guy. Like we had a lot of youth in us and I was like, oh, this is great. But we're really trying hard to get that. How do you bring the cultures together and have the right base of curiosity and knowledge sharing and trust that enables people to say what they don't know.

And I think creating that environment is how you make it successful. What we have found though, is there are very specific roles that you need a lot of crypto experience. The protocol research role, the decentralization tokenomics. There's a ton of stuff that like,

you just like, we need it fast and we have to do this in an accelerated timeline. And you can't take someone for three years to go learn tokenomics. And there are people that have done that. So I think there are specialized roles where we really do have to focus on people with really crypto experience. Yeah, it's it's fascinating to kind of think about one of the things I've seen recently that it never really hit me. If you are 25, maybe 26 years old and you kind of graduated out into the pandemic, you never worked in an office before.

and so one of the things that uh surprised me is we had somebody come and visit uh who works for one of our businesses uh he's a young guy and he was like walking around like starry-eyed he was like wait so like you guys all come here like every day like yes like holy shit like this is cool right and i was telling somebody yesterday i was like it hit me i was like you know once you do it for a long time you're like office right like you kind of almost like uh become jaded to some degree yeah uh but if you're like 23 to 25 years old there is this element a little bit of like i want to be around people right and so like i think that some of these companies that are remote first uh as i've talked to a lot of ceos they're like actually some of our people want

different experiences totally which then brings this like hybrid thing and like it becomes a little bit less black and white i think you know people want to analyze it black and white but if got your young people who are like dude i got all the time i want to do 9 p.m pop a shot for sure right like i don't got a family i don't got to do like if not i'm gonna go to the bar so i might as well hang on people from work right uh versus and you want them talking about it you want those conversations correct right versus the you know 45 year old who's like yo i got three kids right i'm married i got this going on whatever i'm worried about my mortgage like that's a whole different lifestyle right it's a whole different kind of uh time management and so when you have

such different experiences expectations ambitions whatever and you put them together like maybe the right solution is actually some sort of hybrid where people have access to go and do things in person if they want or there's off sites or like like there's some mobility to do stuff like that but also it ends up being remote first like how have you guys thought about office remote you know off sites and kind of like what the cadence and the way that people work totally and i think and i've spent a lot of time with remote work going remote first in my last company and i worked with robert stevens who's the founder of geek squad who runs probably the largest remote company in the world or created it so i learned a lot from him and the two things that we do here

this is culture stuff too i think it's about enabling individuals to make choices by giving them the funding to actually get together so i have a policy or not i we have a policy that everyone has a budget per year to fly and spend time and meet with anyone else and so we enable it and we tell people you want to go one-on-one and go work with someone in portland you have a co-working budget as well as a stipend to travel for hanging out with other people and so there was a meetup in vancouver like a few weeks ago and like seven people were there from i'm going to new york on the 22nd because there's seven people doing a new york meetup and so all these meetups are happening so we're funding and enabling kind of like these hubs and pods to

happen organically but we create the budget and our head of people pushes people to like go do this go make that happen don't be the loner like get it get out and meet people yeah and do it and then we do two off sites a year that are much bigger right one in january one and going into h2 that are everyone and bring everyone together and then i think you also fund great homework offices or a monthly stipend for co-working if you want to be around other people so our vancouver office has a few people in it actually we have a few people in sf there's like five now they're thinking about getting a pod and so we we have a budget for if you want a hub to form you can actually self-create it and so i think enabling that creating budgets for it and

championing it to giving people the permission to do that is something that is very powerful because people that say remote is cool or easier are totally full of it it's harder to lead remotely i actually love being in an office i miss vibing and running around an office um but i really love the ability to hire anyone in the world and i won't trade the ability to i can't imagine being on a zoom call being like where do you live to know if i could hire you and i think that that is so much more valuable for me to actually do the extra work to write more communicate more be more clear make sure we're all on the same page give budgets for getting together but it ain't cheaper i'll tell you our offsites and our budgets to get together

it's not cheaper than having an office it's probably the same and it's more work yeah um so i just really i don't think it's like this magic bullet type thing where like yeah you can just work anywhere what about like meeting styles or like communication right is do you guys work asynchronous asynchronously do you have um kind of uh remote first meetings where everyone's on their computer even if they're in person like how does that stuff work yeah uh everyone's on the computer even though they're in person that's been something i've done for almost 10 years now changed everything for me that was really the moment when we had two offices New York SF and half the team remote the big meeting room of people

and then the remote people on the TV was ten times worse than everyone's on their own computer and we're all equal and that was a big change so I still we still do that and require that no matter what if I think about the kind of culture of communication we're very async we're like a github culture you know we're a protocol like it's a very technical thing um but we still we work in slack you know but my co-founder matt is way more tool crazy yeah yeah i'm like i've known that for a while i know he is i'm very simple and i'm like to like okay we can like chill out let's write the comms let's do the thing matt has like you know 19 different widgets wired up with the notification blocker and just like

i'm jealous of how he's figured all this out because i can't imagine how much time it takes to figure it all out but like he showed me some of it before and it's like yeah like yeah it's it's better if you can figure it out it just takes a long time and you gotta try a lot of things i think to figure out what doesn't work as well yeah i think what i wanted people to know is they can design and control their attention however they see fit like when you work with us however works for you is what should be how it works and you should just be clear on these are my hours that i'm off this day i don't do any meetings i block full snooze all day like whatever however you work i don't care like i i work really well in the morning middays i get distracted like

i want people to know that they have the permission and freedom to design their day how they want as an individual i think that's the most important thing which leads to an asynchronous communication culture and we do one friday weekly wrap up that that's right i literally i'm running back to the hotel and it's uh an hour meeting every friday that we do on a eastern time zone globally and it's all recorded and we use rewatch i don't know if you've heard of rewatch what is that it was built by a github old github team that's kind of like grain um and it's it allows you to every meeting is recorded and every meeting can be turned into like like almost like an instagram story can be commented you can have conversations around you can break out any transcript of it

and anything that happens within the organization in an asynchronous way can start a conversation or be turned into content to then be shared um and that it's insane like the rewatch platform is nuts um and one of our um protocol engineers naomi she came she i think she worked on it and she's like we have like you have to use this it's one of those tools where like you have to get your whole company on it it's on every zoom call it's a big like it's a it's a it's like a slack it like it's like okay we're going in we gotta like do this we're setting up we're signing a contract and then once you get into it it's like how did we operate without this it's one of those tools and i don't have those very often you know like matt has them daily you know i have them like

every three years i'm like slack was one this is the one where i'm like oh yeah like the ability to have a conversation or turn any meeting easily into a beautiful two second or two minute clip where then we're having a conversation around it and it just works and it's all integrated with notion and etc like it's pretty powerful yeah where can we send people to find out more about the protocol if they want to learn xmtp.org and when they go there what is the best way for them if they're building something to actually kind of start using it totally so it's all open source and there's sdks for all mobile apps there's a kind of open source js app for the web you can fork our inbox so we have a full inbox product xmtp.chat if you want to literally go to xmtp.chat

right now and just sign in with your wallet and say shanemac.eth you can send me a message it'll go to my converse app and so you can actually use it but that all the applications we build are forkable and you can use them because they're all open source and they're just basically resource clients for developers um and so you can go use right now and you can i'm shane mac on twitter as well. So what do you tweet about me? Just whatever's on my mind. I try to tweet less. I try to like, I try to like, you know, just Twitter was like a snark engine for me 10 years ago. Right. Uh, and now I just try to have more optimism and just bring more curiosity to the world. I think, you know, maybe you get older, maybe I get more boring. I don't know. I'm the

same way, but you know, less imposter syndrome, you know, you're not running around pounding your chest being like oh no this shit's you know great i'm like i really want to build a great company and i think like thinking about long-term things talking about them on twitter having a longer term view so that everyone can be on with it being a little calmer with that um you know i've been a part of like a massive failure we did zarly we blew like 40 million dollars in three years and i everyone hated it i hated it and it was like my fault that was in 2010 and then like GIST was a success, but I was really lucky and young. Like I didn't, I wasn't the CEO TA was, and he's amazing. And like, I picked the right, I picked the right captain, you know? Um, and I

learned and, uh, got into the space and then assist, uh, was great. And I was doing that for almost nine years of my life doing business messaging on top of these protocols, but you sell it. It's not a venture outcome. When you sell something, got acquired for 50 million bucks after a merger, some investors are like, Oh, you got, you know, a little bit, some, your employees don't do that well like you have these exits in the venture world and you just start over and you lose your whole team and i i was as obsessed of culture at my last company as i am at this one and i have the most amazing team ever and i'm like all that just goes away and so for me like what i tweet about is trying to think about how to create something enduring and not

sell something and us have like a 10-year vision here so that we're kind of like building something that can last like i really just like if i have to sell again and start over like it's it wasn't the choice it was kind of like you know just the market and you had to yeah um and i just really am inspired to build something that's lasting yeah i think you're doing a great job Try. XMTP. Yeah. XMTP.

Like SMTP, but with an X. .org. And Shane Mack on Twitter. Yeah. Thanks, dude. Dude, thank you so much for coming. No, thank you. I think not only it's fun to talk, but also the work you guys are doing is very important.

And I think it's unclear to a lot of people why it's important, but over time, it'll come into clarity. And we need as many people as possible building privacy-enhancing technology, but doing it in a way that isn't like hey come use my product and like screw everything else but actually building um kind of infrastructure where anyone can come in they can use it they can fork uh the open source software they can build applications on top of it like really try to kind of uh you know arm the rebels right if you will if you if you kind of take the shopify uh phrase and um it just feels like you guys are kind of doing that uh and being intentional about the way you're doing

it uh which i really appreciate so thanks so much for uh for kind of explaining to everyone we're trying to and i think if you think about our just the mission of enabling everyone to own their communication i think it's such a powerful thing and the applications then can people don't have to know that really that's what's happening underneath but you are more protected and then if you do want to leave something or you do have a change of feelings about the leadership or something does happen you can take your identity your network and your conversations with you is like the most powerful thing that we could give people and for crypto itself and web3 and the wallet i think sign in with wallet is way more cool than login with facebook and the ability for

people to own that and for me just working on that and working towards that as like a mission and a vision for us and really for crypto itself crypto is still small i actually wonder if owning your communication it'll be way bigger than owning your assets i think that there's a shot awesome thank you so much for doing this and we'll definitely get a future anytime man