The Pomp Podcast - #1304 Jay Jog on Layer One Wars: Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, Sei & More

Episode Date: February 1, 2024

Jay Jog is the Co-Founder of Sei Labs. Sei is the fastest Layer 1 blockchain, designed to scale with the industry. In this conversation, we talk about the evolution of the L1 landscape from Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, to Sei, various tradeoffs, use cases, what the L1 landscape looks like in the future, and what Sei does. ======================= This episode is brought to you by Frec — Just as easy as investing in an ETF, Frec Direct Indexing can help you earn more by unlocking tax savings, no matter the market. Done for you, automatically. Check them out at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://frec.com/ ======================= BetOnline.ag is a proud sponsor of the the Pomp Podcast. Use crypto to bet on sports, play poker and enjoy casino games at BetOnline. Visit https://promotions.betonline.ag/pomp and use promo code POMP100 to receive a 100% matching bonus on any crypto deposit. BetOnline boasts no crypto transaction fees, and processing is anonymous, instantaneous and secure. ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 250,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. Today's conversation is with Jay Jha, the co-founder of Say Labs. In this conversation, we talk about the evolution of the L1 landscape from Bitcoin to Ethereum to Solana to Say and

much, much more. We talk about the various trade-offs these different L1s have to make between security, transaction throughput, and many other decisions that they face. And what exactly does that L1 landscape look like going forward? Is it winner take all? Will there be a multi-chain world? Or will there be interoperability that will be incredibly important? Jay gets into it all, including what Say does, how Say V2 is coming out, and what is this thing that everyone keeps talking about called parallelization. I really enjoyed this conversation with Jay, and I think you guys will learn a ton from this episode. Here is my conversation with Jay Jock. Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast

are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. This episode is brought to you by Freck. Historically, the wealthy had a hidden secret in investing. They would spend a lot of money and use very big teams to conduct tax loss harvesting. Tax loss harvesting is the timely selling of securities at a loss to offset the amount of capital gains tax owed from selling the profitable assets later. But now FREC is bringing this incredible advantage to any investor.

They'll literally lower your tax bill regardless of how much money you have. They use state-of-the-art technology through a product called direct indexing to allow investors to invest in the S&P 500 while getting all the benefits of tax loss harvesting without the big bill. If you want to learn more, go check them out at freck.com. That's F-R-E-C.com. I'm a big fan of the product, and I even became an investor in the business. Freck.com. Go check them out today. This episode is brought to you by BetOnline. Do you like making a profit from sports betting? Well, set yourself up to take home the most profit possible using crypto to fund your sports betting, casino, and poker account at BetOnline.ag. You can avoid costly transaction fees,

get your payouts lightning fast, and do it all securely and anonymously with the highest deposit and withdrawal limits in the industry. If you want to get in on the action, do it the smart way with crypto at betonline.ag. Head to the website, sign up with promo code POMP100 to get 100% bonus on your crypto deposit today. If you go and you deposit, they'll give you 100% bonus if you use promo code POMP100. Bet online. The game starts here. Betonline.ag. Go check them out today. all right guys bang bang i've got jay here uh jay i thought a great place to start this conversation is around the evolution of l1 if we go all the way back to you know 2008 2009 bitcoin really was the first layer one and it came out and it was the idea and promise of becoming

electronic money i think for the most part people are very excited about bitcoin it's still kind of the king when you look at market cap dominance etc but vitalik buterin and others said hey bitcoin can't do everything and what if we take the idea of this blockchain layer one and we add in smart contracts and we got the rise of ethereum and kind of everything that happened on that platform since that day there's been an explosion of interest and development of l1s say which you are co-founder of is one of those kind of l1s that's really going after this and so can you help us understand like how do you look at the l1 landscape and its evolution from the launch of bitcoin and ethereum to maybe what it looks like today yeah i mean honestly i think so far

there have just been three major chains that really matter um the first one is obviously bitcoin as you mentioned and i think it was really interesting because that helped kind of unlock this idea for blockchain um before then this kind of like distributed ledger to solve this kind of problem no one had really thought about solving it in the same way um so i think that was the first kind of major unlock um the second thing that happened was ethereum introduced this idea of a um basically a turing complete state machine like people are able to write smart contracts that in theory are able to do anything the only limitations around that are this component this concept of gas um which kind of make it a quasi-turing complete uh virtual

machine and i think that was like a major unlock because it allowed you to build anything that you wanted to on top of the state machine itself um i think since then there's only been one other major unlock which is in my opinion solano and what solana really did is it helped make crypto accessible for everyone um through building really high performance infrastructure and the reason that high performance infrastructure is important is because when you make a lot of the optimization that solana did um for example by supporting parallelization it helps do two things um the first is it makes gas fees much cheaper so it makes it much easier for people um to access the state machine during periods of higher congestion like on ethereum if you're spending like a hundred

dollars for transaction fees you end up excluding most of the global population from using it um in salon's case it's much cheaper than that so i think that is one side of it and the other side of it is just the type of activity uh specifically the type of decentralized application that you're able to support um it's very restricted on ethereum l1 and i think building this high performance infrastructure um really allows you to explore different design spaces developer so it allows for fundamentally new types of applications to get built so that's where we've been so far um the question then is like what direction is the industry moving in uh going forward so i think there's been a lot of different types of um things that people have experimented

with i mean we've seen different experiments with people trying to build these shared security type I think there's also been people experimenting with different consensus mechanisms while still offering similar types of virtual machines. And there's also been folks that have been trying to just build new virtual machines entirely, for example, the movie ecosystems. In terms of what I'm seeing right now, I think there's essentially a couple of core things. The first is that the EVM is here to stay. The EVM is what kickstarted a lot of the activity. The first is that the EVM is here to stay. The EVM is what kickstarted a lot of the activity that we're seeing on chain right now. And it's really difficult to replace the Ethereum virtual machine.

And the biggest reason for this is that there's already a ton of lock in to the EVM because it's not just a piece of technology. It's more of an ecosystem. And everyone that builds on top of the EVM, They're essentially not only getting that technology, but they're also getting that entire ecosystem of users, existing applications, other developers, liquidity. So it becomes really difficult to replace that. The question is then, what is missing from the EVM right now? Well, if you look at Ethereum L1, it's not very scalable. And if you look at the ecosystem of roll-ups around it as well, you're not really able to get more than 30 to 50 transactions per second, which is really low by the standards of what applications really need um so if you kind of

look at it that way there's this pretty big design space where if you're able to scale the evm then you're going to really help unlock the kind of things that i talked about with solana except on a much larger kind of um skill and that's exactly what we're targeting with savev2 right now um we want to build the first paralyzed evm and by doing this we're going to be able to to get the best of both Ethereum and Solano with support for the EVM, while also having this really high performance infrastructure. So there's a couple of things that I think maybe will help for us to clarify for the audience.

The first is parallelization. How would you describe that to like a five year old, right? What exactly is that? People keep hearing about it. There's like, oh, this is the new thing that's coming. What is that and why is it so important in terms of taking the best from some of these other chains for, say, V2? yeah yeah so perhaps not maybe an eli 5 explanation but maybe like an eli 10 explanation um the way that computers or so if you look at the ethereum virtual machine right now the way that it

works is if you have 100 transactions let's say each transaction would be like me trying to send you money you trying to send someone else money um if you have 100 transactions they'll all get run one after the other so this is really simple like it's really easy for software engineers to um write software that'll handle this um the issue is that it's not performant so modern hardware like the phones that people might be listening to this on laptops that they're listening to this on um they have multiple cores and they're able to support multiple work streams at the same time so like if someone um i guess any kind of application they're using right now there's going to be multiple things running on their laptop for example um so i mean if you think

about it like there's already this modern hardware that's capable of doing more so it's kind of silly that we're not making use of that to enable better performance for blockchains i think solano is really the most successful example of this so far of being able to use multiple cores to be able to get better performance um the ethereum virtual machine like if you look at the evm landscape no one is doing this right now and i think there's a couple of issues like a couple of reasons for that um the first reason is just that it's really complex to build it out um there's also things that like trade-offs that come with that in terms of like increased state so then you need to think about how to account for this increased it um but we think these are all solvable problems

so we fundamentally think that the evm needs to become paralyzed and when you're able to do that you're able to get a 100x improvement in throughput so it does end up it really does end up being a step function improvement on the evm so before we get deeper into kind of what say and say v2 is um one of the narratives which i think are very important uh across the crypto ecosystem that has been becoming more prevalent is that uh all of the alt coins and other chains are r d for bitcoin bitcoin is going to create l2s side chains a variety of different approaches but you're going to be able to issue some of the coins uh do many of the same tasks etc on top of bitcoin some form or fashion um it looks like there is at least developers that are trying to do it what is the

big difference in your mind as to why things like this can't be built on top of a bitcoin regardless of l2 sidechain etc versus having to go build something that's new whether it is solana say or some other uh approach yeah that is definitely an interesting question i mean so i think the most fundamental reason is that each piece of technology is created for a very specific type of use case and trying to add a new functionality on top of that it's essentially trying to fit like i forget the phrase over here um fitting a square peg into a round hole um you can make it work it might be functional from an engineering standpoint um but it's not going to be the best type of um product that gets built it's also not going to be offering the best type of

user experience so i mean if you kind of take a step back uh we're silicon valley team like me and my co-founder we both grew up in the bay area and one of the core ethos of silicon valley is to build things that customers want to solve problems that customers have and something that we try to stay away from is over engineering for the sake of building cool technology which i think is like really common in crypto interestingly um there's a lot of projects out there that are building cool tech for the sake of building cool tech i'm sure you can probably think of probably a half dozen on the top of your head um and yeah i mean it just seems like it's the problem that you really want to solve is what are the existing problems with the user experience right now and

how do you improve those and the most clear problem that we're seeing from the ux right now is everyone is using the evm there's these limitations in the evm in terms of gas costs and in terms of the design space the developers have so let's really focus on improving that because that's what's going to cause the biggest step function change um for improving on the nbn so when we then go and we look at what say is doing there's a lot of technical trade-offs right and we can almost evaluate this maybe as to like what do you think ethereum got right got wrong what do you think solana got right got wrong and then what are you all doing in terms of these decisions and how are you thinking about trade-offs around security

transaction throughput etc to come up with what you think is kind of the the best you know mix of the ingredients if you will to really serve users yeah so in terms of what ethereum did right um as i was mentioning before they like introduced this idea of a turn complete virtual machine um so i mean that's a really complicated way of saying that like you're able to build stuff on top of the virtual machine and you can build it however you want to there's not going to be any limitations in terms of the types of functionality that you're able to support so this really i think was a major major kind of new introduction um because being able to try smart contracts in this decentralized way um it really expands the design space of what people are able to do um the thing that i don't

think ethereum got right uh was they didn't really build it with scaling in mind um from the get-go like the focus was not to support um much higher amounts of activity happening on the network i think they had long-term plans for like okay we're going to be supporting execution sharding right now they're looking into um a roll-up centric future but when they were initially launching i think that wasn't really a poor focus point of theirs um which i mean to be fair i think that is definitely the right way of building um because when they initially launched there was not really an example of a train complete virtual machine either um that was used on a blockchain so i think they were really trying to focus on that initially um what i think solana did right is they

were able to help scale um a blockchain to be able to support greater throughput um what i don't think that they like what i think they should have done instead of supporting the svm is try trying to use the EVM and then making it backwards compatible so people can take existing L1 smart contracts from Ethereum, deploy them to Solana with no code changes. And if they had done something like that, I think it would have resulted in a much more seamless developer experience,

much more seamless user experience, and it would have resulted in kind of a much easier time for people to both build and use Solana. So that's why I think that opportunity in the middle of being able to take the EVM and helping scale it in the same way that Solana did, that is quite significant. So in terms of the trade-offs with an approach like that, I think the biggest issue that comes up with parallelization

is it leads to increased state. So what is state, right? State is all of the balances that are there for both normal accounts. So this would be like, I have 10 say, you have 20 say. And this would also be all smart contract balances. So all smart contract state. So like this Uniswap smart contract has these pools

and this is the kind of information types of those pools. So there's like this idea of a state tree, which is used to compute the state hash. And you basically need to keep this entire state tree on each of these validator nodes to be able to compute the state hash. And when you have more transactions that are coming in, this leads to more state that gets created,

which then leads to a couple of different issues. The first is state storage. Like it just becomes much more difficult to store the state, especially if you want to have lower node requirements. And then the second issue that comes up is it becomes quite difficult to start running a new node. Because if you're trying to sync like a hundred gigabytes worth of data,

while there's new blocks that are being processed at the same time, it adds an additional complexity. So there's a ton of work we needed to do from the state side to be able to better support easier state syncs and better state storage as well. And so what is now going to be possible? Talking about applications or use cases that you all see really kind of driving. So I'm a developer. I'm looking at all these different opportunities to go build on top of what could I possibly be doing that would make me lean more towards building on say versus maybe somewhere else? yeah i mean if you look at uh developers out there right now um they're basically all evm developers and anecdotally speaking um like i've been through this process before of like talking

tvm developers and um just seeing what their thoughts are about moving to new ecosystems um evm developers do not want to go to new ecosystems um one reason for that is there's like this idea of ethereum alignment where they don't really want to go to a new ecosystem because of that but there's also this idea that like new ecosystems have their own quirks i'm already familiar with the evm and if i try to build something a new ecosystem let's say i write something and move um and i make even a small bug then my entire contract can just get drained my entire project can just die because of this one small bug so it's a really scary kind of um proposition for them to move somewhere else so evm's or developers they're primarily attached

the evm right now um if you think about it that way like these engineers they are basically limited by what the evm is offering them so as i was mentioning before um if you look at the landscape of evm chains um ethereum l1 roll ups as well you can't really get more than 50 tps so this leads to anti-patterns that developers need to use to build applications on the evm um one example of this would be an automated market maker. If you look at traditional financial markets, there's not really a concept of an AMM because it's not as capital efficient and it has a bunch of other downsides as well. In traditional financial markets, you would see people using order book exchanges. The reason that people can't build order book exchanges is because

you can't really support that on the EVM. So what SAFE fundamentally unlocks is any type of use case beyond 50 TPS. Right now the entire Ethereum landscape is quite small in terms of what it can support. If you're able to remove that 50 TPS bottleneck and expand it to be 100x higher, the design space for developers just changes fundamentally. A few examples that I can think of off the top of my head right now of applications that you can start to see, one of them would be like just fully on-chain order book based exchanges. Another example would be a game where you have every single action that is happening getting written on chain instead of only having some kind of token movement that ends up occurring

on chain another example would be some kind of social application where every single activity that the user engages in like every single like comment whatever retweet um all of that and all their metadata also getting stored on chain so i think it really results in a lot of different things that you can actually have be verifiable um on chain instead of needing to have most of it just be stored off chain and then uh trying to really just store like maybe token transfers or something on chain let's talk a little bit about uh kind of the the organization building on top of the technology right you can build great technology but you still have to do some other things um how are you all thinking about going and educating people in terms of developers and

explaining to them how they can use this uh what's been working so far and are there one or two things maybe that people are building on top of it that you're like yeah this is a perfect example and we would love to you know just get 100 more or 200 more of these types of projects on top of the chain yeah so i mean say v1 went live on august of 2023 so this was around six months ago um and initially there wasn't actually that much activity that was happening on the chain um then afterwards the save e2 proposal got put out in november of 2023 so a couple of months ago and i think that really stuck a chord um with the community and since then on save you one there's been a ton of activity uh that has started to happen um if you look at the stuff that's already happening

on save you one um i think it falls under largely three buckets um one of these buckets was inscriptions so initially there started to be a ton of inscriptions activity on set and i think this is true for all other ecosystems but in the case of say there was no outage or like downtime that happened um because the chain was just able to handle that kind of throughput that we're seeing um since then i think inscriptions activities largely died down and now we're starting to see more NFT activity and more kind of token projects that are launching and more trading activities happening. So right now on SaveE1, a lot of the activity is tied to people that are trading on chain. In terms of SaveE2, the kind of developers, so I mean, first of all, in terms of like the

value proposition for developers, I think it's very straightforward. Like every single developer that I've talked to has basically just understood it. The idea of being able to offer greater throughput um with the evm it makes sense to developers for multiple reasons like especially evm developers they've gone through the process of like using etel one and paying gas fees over there so from more of the normal user standpoint it is just fundamentally different and it's a 10x improvement over there um and also from the actual uh building standpoint you're able to support um as i was mentioning different types of applications so developers become excited about that idea as well um in terms of new projects that are going to get built on say

as a result of this um we're seeing two things happening one is blue chip projects from ethereum um are actually just straight up reaching out to us about deploying instances on set so this would be like a project on ethereum that's already launched on ethereum l1 and is also going to be launching an instance on save um i think that's definitely exciting because it results in existing ethereum applications being able to get cheaper gas fees and allowing different types of activities for their users we're also starting to see more homegrown applications homegrown in the sense of people that are just dedicated completely to say um they're launching their own in-house kind of applications so maybe we could talk a little bit

in terms of the um financing like you guys raised some money token goes live how do you think about value accrual right in terms of private markets public markets um and the holder base obviously with the bitcoin etf getting approved people are excited because institutions and kind of bigger funds are coming into the space just talk a little bit as to like how you thought about funding the business until now and then who do you think is actually holding the token etc in the market yeah yeah so in terms of i'm associated with say labs um say labs is the open source development company in terms of i mean how we raise money we initially raised money we had our seed round in that we announced in august of 2022 um this was led by multipoint capital and this was

and honestly right after the terror collapse happened um so it was definitely not an easy time um to be raising back then as i'm uh sure you can kind of empathize with um but we were super happy to get multipoint around the table um i think they've been offering a ton of very thoughtful advice in terms of um just building infrastructure um since then we raised a series a um that was announced in april of 2023 uh so some of the biggest checks in that round were um jump distributed global and there are several other partners that are around the table there as well um afterwards august of 2023 is when say foundation uh helped have the distributed launch um for the state network and yes state network so say is an l1 blockchain um it's a proof of state

blockchain so there's a token that is associated with that and similar to like salon or ethereum the types of use cases would be largely the same um so one of them would be to help uh secure the network so you'd be able to stake it with the network um another example would be for governance so to be able to vote on any proposals to come in another use case would be for transaction fees but i think one thing that's really interesting about a chain like say where there's a lot of trading activity that's happening um is there ends up being a lot of meb like i was looking at a flip side dashboard for meb recently like mev onset and there's already been millions of of dollars of MEV on say, which is kind of wild.

Like there's just a ton of whenever there's a ton of trading volume, it results in a lot of opportunities for MEV. And I mean, for any listeners, it might not be familiar. MEV is the value you can accrue by changing the ordering of transactions within a block. So either by having one transaction go before another, having a transaction go after another or potentially including or excluding transactions from a block. So I mean, there's several different types of MEV.

but um the core idea is that there is some value that gets created and if you're able to set up a redistribution framework where that value gets redistributed to uh the chain itself so for example to people that are staking on the network um then it becomes a very effective way to long time monetize the network um instead of needing to have inflation for the network um because inflation isn't really the best approach necessarily like you want there to be some amount of inflation but trying to subsidize every single validator every single node operator on the network through inflation isn't necessarily the best approach. But if you have some kind of more sustainable value pool mechanism, such as MEV, then that does result in a much more long term

sustainable network. How do you think about the future in terms of say, you know, you guys have V2? What does this look like in five or 10 years? Is it a winner take all and say is the king of, you know, kind of smart contracts and EVM, etc? Is it winner take most and maybe there's three or for winners or do we have this like plethora and there's, you know, 5,000 different platforms that people are all building on top of and maybe in each one of those scenarios, like where does SAFE fit in? Yeah. So, I mean, first of all, in terms of what we have, how we think about SAFE right now,

we think there's some massive disconnect between web two and web three. Like if you go and try to do something in web two, it's really simple from user experience standpoint and every single part of the process is largely even optimized so far. If you try to do something on Web3, that is definitely not the case. It's a much more cumbersome process. So the world we imagine in a few years, ideally, is one where, as a developer, if you try to build something on Sane, it'll offer the same type of developer experience as building it in a Web2 fashion. And from a user standpoint, we ideally want the user experience to be identical to that of building in Web2.

So, I mean, we want to just completely bridge that gap. In terms of how we see the landscape kind of moving in the longer term, I do think it's going to be a winner-take-most market. And I think there's going to be two different types of infrastructure that ends up existing in the future. There's going to be a small number of general purpose chains that end up having a lion's share of the activity. Currently, these are chains like Ethereum L1 and Solana. In the future, if we're able to see a lot of the stuff that I mentioned playing out in terms of more developer activity happening as a result of, say, V2, one of these bigger chains could definitely be SID. So I think it'll be a winner-take-most market for these general-purpose chains. I think there will also be some application-specific chains, depending on the use case.

But I think it's really difficult to make an application-specific chain work, both from the actual product standpoint and also from the community building standpoint. So I think there's only going to be a handful of those that are successful. And the amount of activity happening there is going to be much lower than the activity happening on these general purpose chains. So another interesting idea is like maybe this difference between digital native assets and then kind of real world assets. And this comes up every couple of years. Right now, it seems like most of the success has been coalescing around natively digital assets. Yeah. Real world assets. Is that a thing? Can it happen on Say? Is that interesting to you all? Is it something that you want to happen on top of Say? How do you think about those?

Yeah, so it's definitely something that can happen on Say. It's something that I think should happen on Say. In particular, say it's going to be a better place for any type of token-based activity to happen because it's just a much more scalable network. There are projects in the pipeline that are building real-world assets. The question of whether it's interesting and whether blockchains in general are the place for that activity to happen, I think that's something that's still kind of up in the air, especially if yields are low. There's a lot of stuff that doesn't really need to be built on chain and i think oftentimes people try to force it to happen on chain through real world assets um i think right now that interest rates are high there's

a lot of projects that are trying to offer um essentially like higher interest rate um stuff on pin um but as soon as those yields start to go down i think it's going to be interesting to see um what happens with a lot of these rwa projects um but yeah i mean in terms of experimentation in the design space i definitely think folks should experiment there um and i do think say is going to end up being one of those places where that experimentation is much easier to facilitate if you had 30 seconds with a developer and they asked you you know why should they build on top of say what is uh your pitch to them yeah i mean the biggest thing that stands out uh is you're able to have a much bigger design space as a developer

you're no longer limited by 50 tps so you're able to build much more um elegant applications where you don't need to have any anti-patterns that you make use of to fit the constraints of ethereum 01 and i mean this honestly is something that has resonated with a lot of developers um just being able to explore this bigger design space makes their lives easier and allows them to build uh potentially much more interesting types of applications for users that um that makes sense and so when you look at um maybe what you guys are uh doing today what is the biggest risk or where is the potential biggest like pothole in the road right a lot of times we talk about all the positive things but as the founder of an organization you think a lot about how do i

kill the risk how do i mitigate that risk to ensure success what are those things that you're most worried about or uh trying to mitigate yeah so i mean for any type of l1 i would say crypto infrastructure more broadly there ends up being a couple of different things that matter um the first is the technology um the second is the ecosystem so developers and the third is community so like end users of this technology um from this standpoint right now i don't think technology is really that big of a risk at this point um like there's already a core like save you one that is live and save you two there's been a ton of progress happening towards that so that's definitely not something that keeps me up at night um the biggest things are just uh ecosystem and

community i mean i think community is honestly the thing that's most difficult to um basically acquire to create um because there's so many different types of infrastructure um having your infrastructure be the one that people actually care about um it's really tough to set that up i think in today's case we actually had a really wild kind of journey in december so around a month and a half ago uh where there was the say in meme that took off um and for any listeners that might not have been following on crypto twitter back then um saiyan is from dragon ball z um it is the kind of alien race that like goku and all the other main characters um are and it sounds really similar to say so folks started just memeing about that um and it really started taking off and then

since then there's just been a much stronger community that's been emerging on say um i think one example of activity starts seeing with the stronger community is nft activity um because nfts tend to be things that people have much more of an emotional tie to um and you start to see a lot more nft activity happening in these ecosystems where there is like uh legit communities that are forming um nfts also tend to be a lot cheaper to trade um and they require a lot less sophistication to be able to trade compared to potentially token um token-based projects so yeah like fundable token-based projects but yeah i think that's been super interesting to see come together And once you start having an organic community, then it really incentivizes ecosystems to get

formed. So more developers coming in. But yeah, I mean, if Say does not end up succeeding in a three-year timeframe, I think it'll be a combination of not enough developers to come on and not enough community that is able to get formed. Where can we send people to find you online or find out more about Say? Yeah, I mean, to learn more about Say, you can go to Say's Twitter. So S-E-I-N-E-T-W-O-R-K. And in my case, you can just follow me on Twitter as well, so J-A-Y-E-N-D-R-A underscore J-O-G. Awesome.

Well, Jay, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. It's obvious that you guys have been pretty thoughtful about what you're building here, and it looks like lots of developers are starting to pay attention. So best of luck in the future, and we'll definitely do it again. Cool. Thank you, man.