The Pomp Podcast - #1338 Hunter Horsley & Matt Hougan | They Bought Billions In Bitcoin In Eight Weeks!

Episode Date: April 4, 2024

Hunter Horsley is the Founder & CEO of Bitwise Asset Management. Matt Hougan is the CIO of Bitwise Asset Management. In this conversation we talk about bitcoin ETF launch, 20,000 meetings & calls with various advisors, where they see the industry going from here, how folks are thinking about allocating capital, and more. ======================= Buy and sell cryptocurrency in a tax-advantaged crypto IRA with iTrustCapital. Enjoy 24/7 access, lowest fees in the industry, and tax benefits for your retirement. Open an account today at www.itrustcapital.com ======================= Core Scientific (NASDAQ: CORZ) is one of the largest public Bitcoin miners and hosting solutions providers for Bitcoin mining in North America. To learn more about Core Scientific, please visit: www.corescientific.com ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/ ======================= View 10k+ open startup jobs: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. Today's episode is with Hunter Horsley and Matt Hogan. Hunter is the founder and CEO of Bitwise Asset Management, and Matt is the CIO at Bitwise Asset Management. In this conversation,

we talk about the fact that Bitwise has done 20,000 meetings and calls with various advisors, what they're hearing from these financial advisors across the country, how the Bitcoin ETF launches are going, where they see the industry going from here, and how folks are thinking about allocating capital into Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies. This conversation was recorded at Bitcoin Investor Day, and these two did not disappoint. I'm really excited for you all to hear what's going on on the ground and in these meetings that they're having with so many financial advisors across the country. Here is my conversation with both Hunter Horsley and Matt Hogan. Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on

his podcasts are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Today's episode is brought to you by iTrust Capital. Are you buying crypto on an exchange because you're excited about the bull run? Well, I hope you're reporting your crypto gains to the IRS because they want you to pay your taxes. That's right. When you buy and sell crypto on an exchange, you need to pay the government taxes when you make profits. That sounds pretty taxing.

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contract with CoreWeave, a leader in AI cloud compute, to provide up to 16 megawatts of data center capacity. With a substantial fleet of their own miners, CoreScientific not only earns Bitcoin for their own account, but also provides hosting services for large-scale Bitcoin mining customers operating out of seven data centers in Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, North Dakota, and Texas. You can learn more about CoreScientific by visiting CoreScientific.com. That's core scientific.com go check them out today our next two guests matt hogan and hunter horsley uh cio at bitwise and ceo at bitwise um when you put on an event you have to decide who finishes up the day and uh they don't know this but the reason why i picked them is because these two

guys plus their team um you have a microphone right there uh have done something that uh pretty much nobody else in bitcoin and crypto have done which is what i call hand-to-hand combat um how many rias uh and other investor meetings do you think that the entire bitwise team has done over the last call it seven or eight years can you hear me oh yeah great it's awesome to be with all of you I've had a chance to meet a few people and pump this is such an extraordinary event incredible people in the room oh my gosh last year we did 20,000 meetings and calls in one year 20,000 meetings and calls? We will do 49 events around the country in the first six months of this year. When Matt

joined Bitwise, he was clear with me that he was excited. Six years ago, Matt joined Bitwise after a very long career in ETFs because he saw the opportunity in the space. I think the week he joined went on Bloomberg and said he thinks it'll be the next multi-trillion dollar asset class. And Matt said, my one condition is I want to travel less. And I said, he didn't know I had my fingers crossed behind my back. Matt has been traveling every week. I've been traveling every week. But Bitwise strives to be a little bit like the teaching assistant for crypto. You know, there are a lot of investors around the country that sort of are thinking through what everything means for them. And we try to walk into the room and say, what are you working on and how can we help you move forward? what are the what are people asking what are the conversations matt when you're in the room traveling even though hunter told you you didn't have to um what's happening in those rooms that's right yeah he uh he swindled me in but i'm glad for it um uh recently they've changed you know

if i think about what the questions were six years ago and what they were are today six years ago they were sort of excuses designed as questions uh they were questions about custody they were questions about could it go to zero? There were questions about, you know, how do you access it? Can you access it? Post ETF, they've really, really changed. It's now questions about position sizing. It's questions about what to sell in order to make room for it. There are still lingering questions. There's still some concerns about, you know, how do you value it? Are we too late? But a lot of the logistical questions have been solved, which has been a real material change. How much of that is just pure ETF get approved versus other things that may be going on, price going up?

And some of these are related, but is it just ETF gets approved, now I'm interested? Yes, it's just ETF gets, I mean, it's just ETF gets approved. That's a huge deal. It's an ETF gets approved. It's BlackRock's in the market. This is not the Bitcoin of yesteryear. This is now considered an institutional asset. I also think ETFs being approved and BlackRock coming in means that it's not going to zero,

which is a material difference for these advisors, right? They are worried about looking foolish to their clients. And an asset that goes down in price doesn't make them look foolish. That happens all the time. But an asset that they just read wrong and went to zero, that keeps them up at night. And I think the ETFs sort of solve that problem for them. so what is the latest public number on assets and then hunter what have you guys been doing because you're basically going into a prize fight and you're fighting against blackrock and fidelity

and some of these huge firms and you know i'm biased i'm an investor in bitwise like i think you guys are holding your own right you guys doing a pretty good job so like what is the strategy when you're not the brand name when you're not the you know the big dog that's got a hundred million dollar marketing budget or whatever to throw around um yeah it's no joke large firms oh my gosh um bitwise for those who aren't familiar with us we've been around for six years we've been on the journey with all of you um and uh today we manage 15 funds there are about 3 000 wealth management firms family offices and institutions that are invested through our funds um and we launched a bitcoin etf after working on it for about six years uh in january alongside

a large pack of incredible firms. After two months, we crossed $2 billion in assets. We're one of the largest today. We also try to be good stewards of this industry and not just hand it over to the old system. So we publish the Bitcoin addresses publicly so the transparent attribute of a public distributed ledger can be accessed in that benefit.

And we also donate 10% of the profits to Bitcoin developers. Thank you. If you've met open source Bitcoin developers, you know that it's often thankless work. Sometimes you get sued by Craig Wright. And it's your job to protect the asset that today investors own over a trillion dollars of. So you could just think of us as trying to be a great partner to investors who are busy and want to access the opportunity. But also to be good stewards to the vision that I think got everyone in this room excited about the space in the first place, which is to improve the system and to improve the way the future can be.

In terms of what we're doing, I say sometimes on Twitter, if any of you follow me, let me know afterwards if you're sick of me saying it, that I'm grateful to investors for choosing our product, the Bitwise Bitcoin ETF, and we have a host of others. There's every option under the sun today, and many accomplished managers of those products. what we strive to be is to be the specialist option and for some investors they want to work with a dedicated specialist that has one job um one responsibility uh and one priority as a firm and many others of course uh want to go a different way with it but um i'm really proud and and again you know gratitude is sort of the the the honest emotion that i feel that today so many i mean we're seeing dozens of wealth management firms a week we were recently approved on a very large

firm we have the first corporate um that's putting the bitwise bitcoin etf on their balance sheet starting last week um so uh thank you thank you is that publicly known it's it's not it's not public at the moment but um you just said it here it's public now um is it a public company or private company it's a it's a fantastic uh it's a fantastic private company but i'm at the moment yeah yeah that's fine um matt you blessed me with some education at one point and uh we did a podcast episode on what happens when etfs get approved and gld was like a big comparison could you summarize uh kind of what you expect to happen from here based on those past events yeah i mean what the so so before i joined hunter bitwise i ran etf.com so that was

my time. So it covered the space. What happens is there's a lot of excitement and a lot of flows initially, and then it actually just builds over time. So for instance, with GOD, when it launched, it was the fastest growing ETF in its first week. It pulled in a billion dollars. It pulled in $3 billion in year one. That was almost a record and everyone was excited. And then it got more assets in year two and more assets in year three and four and five and six and seven and eight. And actually the largest inflow year was year 16 in 2020. And the reason for that is that we like to think of the ETF approval as a step function. One day institutions can't buy and the next day they can, but it's actually like a slowly turning valve, right? So when it first turns on, retail

investors can buy and RAs, independent financial advisors can buy, but Morgan Stanley and UBS and Wells Fargo and Merrill Lynch can't. And there are actually like a hundred smaller platforms below that, as well as institutional consultants. It's not one decision. You have to make two decisions. You need two approvals. And the reason it builds over time is that those two approvals take time. So look, I mean, we're off to a great start. We've pulled in $12 billion of flows, but the U.S. wealth management industry is like 45 trillion dollars so we have a few basis points like two percent down 98 to go uh and i think that's i think that's what we're going to see i think it's going to build from here as those approvals turn on do you expect to get to 100 or is there

like some number where you're like yeah this probably is uh based on what wealth managers are going to allocate we could expect the kind of finish line to be two three four percent I mean, that number is going up. I will say at Bitwise, Hunter can probably attest to it. In the early days, it was 1% of the portfolio. And now I think we're seeing a lot more 2.5% and 5%. It will scale with the size of the asset. But I don't think it's unreasonable to think there could be multiple hundreds of billions of dollars in these ETFs. And allocation sizes could be between 1% and 5% and maybe scaling as the asset matures. If I could just add to that, I don't think that every wealth manager in America, every investor in the world will own

the asset. But I just want to use that as a pivot point into what is so remarkable about the Bitcoin ETF, which is that the conversation can start to be about, do you want to invest in this asset in the same way some people want to invest in Microsoft and others think it's overvalued. And some people want to invest in Exxon and others don't want to. And the conversation can be about the actual opportunity and asset instead of the operational complexity and the accounts that have to be opened and the diligence that needs to be done because the ETF cuts through all of that and allows people to focus on the asset and whether they want to invest in it. Whereas for the prior 15 years, probably everyone in this room has been one of those people who's been able to figure out

how to power through that complexity. But for most, that complexity was just ultimately overwhelming and made it impossible to really seriously consider. We've taken a survey of wealth managers every year for the last six years. And every year, they have said that their number one preferred vehicle for investing across eight options, you can imagine them, is ETFs. And in January, we took the most recent survey and 88% said they were waiting for a Bitcoin ETF to invest in the space. So I think that it's so powerful because it allows them to focus on whether they want to make the investment. And I think like other investments, the whole world will not all pick the same stock and all buy it in the same size over time.

So you've built a multi-billion dollar asset manager. You have been there the longest as the founder. You have the most context. You also have, I'm going to again refer to hand-to-hand combat of 20 000 calls and meetings and all this stuff um but there's a lot of technology this is still a technologically advanced industry so how do you think about building a team how much to focus on technology versus we have to go build relationships and kind of do the whining and dining and education and all that stuff and like those are two very very different things but for this business to be successful you got to do both very well at a world-class level um in in uh in in my prior life, I was a software product manager at Facebook and Instagram before. And when we

wanted to, you know, spin something up, you would try to draft people onto the team or get headcount to hire new people. And you'd be competing with, you know, the established revenue streams. And I think the opportunity that we have with Bitwise, from my point of view, is that we have a clean sheet of paper and we can build, you know, my aspiration is an Olympic team and pull the best player uh and purpose build it specifically for this asset class so if you're you know going to be the best breed manager for real estate maybe you're blackstone you want to make sure that you have people on the team that understand zoning for commercial real estate in atlanta and you want to make sure that you understand architecture and general contractors um in addition to portfolio

management and um uh for for our asset class you want to make sure that you understand open software and that you can speak with developers about code proposals, that you can comment on those proposals, that you can think through scaling software, and you have that embedded in a fiduciary asset management team. So we have people from Google and Facebook and Slack, military software security, and then also from BlackRock and Blackstone and Millennium and Vin over there, Mercer and Northern Trust. And we think the combination of those two is how we can be the most useful partner for investors who say, I want to participate here, but it's 5% of my portfolio. So I need a team with all the expertise that I can call or email

and know that they have their eye on all the moving parts. Matt, you're the chief investment officer, which means that you have a hand in what products get launched how people should be allocating capital etc um how do you go through should you launch the next altcoin the meme coin an index an active fund you guys have quite a diversity of products today but obviously you're thinking about others as well all the good ideas are hunter i think is what he wants me to say next question yeah um uh in terms of i mean you know our job at bitwise as Hunter mentioned, is to be the trusted crypto asset manager for people for whom it's three, five, or maybe 10% of their portfolio. So they're looking to us to build high quality products to

give them those exposures. So we think a lot about what areas of the market they need exposure to. The first product we launched was the first and today the largest diversified crypto index fund, because not everyone knows how crypto will turn out and they may just want to capture the beta of the market. As DeFi became an exciting area, we launched the first DeFi index fund. We launched the first NFT index fund. We launched ways for people to express their opinions. So as we look at the market today, there are plenty of those that are coming. One of the reasons having this combination of tech and asset management is that we're not at the end of crypto history. There, of course, will be other things. I think you'll see us look at income generating strategies.

I think there's significant room for strategies that embed through some technique, an element of downside protection, because I think that still worries people. But look, we have 19 products today. We're going to have more in the future. How many more? And I ask that somewhat joking, but also for an industry that I didn't realize this, I used to always cite there's 20,000 cryptocurrency coins. i went and i had to do a presentation for someone recently so i just googled i was like maybe say like 25 000 there's 2.3 million cryptocurrency coins now and i always said that's a lot more than i remember and so i started googling around and looking on twitter and there's a gentleman who tweeted and said that in one hour on solana at one point there was 2 500 meme coins launched in one hour and so again 2.3 million coins doesn't mean that they're all going to be you know really

serious projects or anything like that but like how many products can a firm support and then also an industry that does seem to be expanding at such a rapid rate well um i can talk about products but one thing i just want to uh share is a mental model that i have for this one of the things that's so amazing about this space is the different backgrounds and disciplines that it brings together. There are people with financial backgrounds that are excited about an alternative asset class, about a non-sovereign potentially currency or store of value. There are people who come to it from a philosophical or sociopolitical perspective who like reducing the control over them by central authorities. There are people who come to it from a technology

perspective. And depending on which perspective you come from, there are different analogies, different mental models. One that I just want to share on how I think about there being 2 million coins is ultimately all of these things are open source software projects. And in software, the general rule is that you need an unbelievable amounts of shots on goal to get a few useful things. If you have an iPhone, there are over a million apps in the app store. You probably downloaded 70 and you probably use 12 on a day-to-day basis. The fact that there's 990,000 that you've never heard of or never used does nothing to make Google Maps worse for you or Uber worse for you. It's just the nature of software innovation that they're easy to create,

they're hard to scale, but lots of things need to be tried. And I would point out how extraordinary it is. Muneeb is here building stacks, which is innovation on Bitcoin, which is extraordinary. it is so extraordinary that people that this ecosystem of innovation has been conjured without the stimulation of a corporation i mean think about corporate innovation officers you have r&d budgets companies try to have hackathons or venture centers meanwhile you know tens of thousands of developers and hundreds of thousands of people around the world have come together to dream up how we can make the world better in the 21st century, leveraging the insight that Bitcoin has introduced. And I just think that that is so extraordinary. And so many have tried

to reproduce it in a corporate context, but haven't been able to. So I think it's a really special thing. Our relationship to that is for investors who are busy and don't have the privilege of meeting with developers or getting to say to you, Pomp, what are you excited about or seeing? We're supposed to wade through the rainforest and identify the things that have developed to a stage of maturity that they are a relevant opportunity to bring forth and then make them accessible through a product that can afford peace of mind through professional portfolio management and custody and audit and so on and so forth. So that's sort of our objective function is what is an opportunity that's possible now that can be relevant to investors. it's helpful when investors give us feedback on opportunities they're seeing. But I think we could have dozens more. But we won't launch products just for product's sake. We ultimately are serving investors. And one last thing, I know this is the most long-winded answer. I'm really proud also,

if Jeff Park was here, who's our head of alpha strategies, he would talk about this less visible part of the space that's maturing right now, which is the financialization of the space, but options markets, derivatives, the ability to drive alpha and absolute return. And he runs an incredible strategy with Vin that isn't directional. And I think Dan and Brett both spoke about a little bit about needing to have all of the elements of a mature asset class. And that's happening too and creates other opportunities for investors on the alpha side. Matt, you go on TV and the reporters and the journalists seem a little bit more enthusiastic, sympathetic at this point than they were maybe a couple of years ago. What have you seen in those conversations that's

really changed. Yeah. I mean, you probably see the same things as well. They definitely are much more optimistic. I think right now they're much more Bitcoin focused. I feel like in the bear market, they were looking for, quote unquote, real world use cases and sort of skeuomorphic examples of how crypto was going to disrupt things they know and love. And now I think you've seen a real pivot in the media joe kernan and others to embrace bitcoin as bitcoin right as this digital store value that you can't touch that may disrupt how finance works but isn't changing you know how people go about their lives on a minute-to-minute basis um and i think that's been a real change sort of an embrace of bitcoin i think i think media was embraced blockchain

or hope to embrace blockchain in real world use cases which there are some really exciting ones now that are bubbling up. And now they're starting to embrace Bitcoin a little bit more as Bitcoin. When you see them doing that, is that a main driver of maybe inbound interest that you guys see? Like the media talking about it seems like a pretty big deal, right? And I envision the classic RIA manager who's going to their office, they turn on the TV, it's on mute, they've got Bloomberg, CNBC, Fox, whatever on. They're doing some email, they look up, they see either the Bitcoin price or see people talking about it. They see Matt's beautiful face on TV and they say, I got to call Bitwise. Like, is that happening? I think, you know, if I came

up to you and said, what do you think about AI? You have an answer. It's probably not based on setting aside a week and taking vacation and researching, you know, every piece of public information about AI. It's based on a combination of impressions from people in your life, from what you've read, what you've heard in the media. And so I think, I'd be curious what Matt has to say, but I think it definitely creates the background noise. And I would say, hats off to you for having Eleanor and Tanaya and Brad here who are all fantastic. And there are many reporters that have really worked to understand what's going on and cover it really thoughtfully. But I think it definitely creates an important context for people. And it is an amazing thing for our space that the

people that you've had on stage can be really productive representatives. You know, if you had anyone that you've had on stage today on CNBC, and you do a phenomenal job of this as well, by the way, you know, hats off to Pomp for being such an amazing representative of our space. You know, in that context, you want thoughtful people to speak on your behalf to all of us as members of the Bitcoin ecosystem and community. And I think that that has gotten so much better in this cycle. Yeah, I was just going to build on that. I never think it's one thing. You remember the last cycle, we were so excited about Paul Tudor Jones. Must have talked about that for months. And that was a real thing. But it was one person. And that's easy to dismiss. And now

it's hundreds of people, right? It's not atypical. And I think that's really different. And I also think the general tone and tenor has changed. There's the website that tracks how many times Bitcoin has died. It's a fun website. And it's like, it's like 14,000 times, but it's only died once in the mainstream media in the last six or seven months. It's really changed really in a noticeable fashion. It's the longest run of very few deaths that we've ever had. And so it's a big deal. How do you guys think about retail interest? And, you know, I mentioned earlier, Google searches really haven't come back yet um i think coinbase for maybe two or three days cracked top 100 apps but hasn't really kind of pushed into the top 50 or 20 or even 10. um is that kind of

in parallel you all will see a lot more interest from ris and stuff because there's just the same way the media is that background noise like clients are going to their wealth managers and they're kind of demanding or like pushing them to get more exposure to it and so as you see retail come back on a Coinbase or Google searches, we should expect wealth managers to kind of be hearing it from both. You guys are doing 20,000 meetings, but they're also hearing their clients come to them. Yeah. I mean, I think if all of you could leave today and email your financial advisor and say, you should reach out to this firm, bitwiseinvestments.com, that definitely makes an impression on them. I think that what we were just at the Barron's Top Advisor Summit

it last week. Matt spoke. It was amazing, Matt. And from a few conversations there, I think actually at the moment, a common refrain is I'm actually not getting that many questions from clients, but I want to figure it out. So we have dozens of wealth firms now allocating with us every week, and it's mostly driven by the advisor. It's actually not being pulled by the client. I do think if the market gets to a place where clients are indicating their enthusiasm, it will accelerate that. But it's kind of a beautiful moment right now where the advisor is actually independently saying, this is thoughtful. And we have advisors now are putting 2% across all of their clients. So I don't think yet it's sort of that level of individual driven, but it would accelerate things.

Yeah, I think it will accelerate things. One thing that surprised me that no one has commented on is I still think there's a lot of retail demand. I just think it's different retail. You can think of retail as a bucket. Retail drove crypto. Now it's brokerage-driven retail. And whether we like it or not, those people have more money.

So I do think retail is a big piece. I think eventually advised assets and then family offices will be a much bigger piece because they control more money. but as Hunter said, that's building. I have one question for each of you and then I'll let you go. Hunter, for you, fees. You guys came out, you were the lowest fee provider on day one. I think people were shocked at the disparity of the fees. How have you all thought about the ETF fee and you want to make money, but also low fee does drive inbound interest. So have you thought about that and where are you guys today i i think that we're so in the last week of december

issuers filed amended s1s and a few decided to disclose fees um the highest i think was was 80 um and i think the lowest was 39 um and uh that's the range that i sort of expected um of course where it ended up settling is is people came down a ton and ours today is at 20 basis points, which was the lowest out of the gate. My first thought on fees is that it's a real gift to investors. I mean, the package of what you're getting for 20 basis points is the best institutional grade custody. You also get an audit by KPMG. BNY also does the books and records. The incredible portfolio management team at Bitwise will trade it for you. We're executing with one to four basis points of cost to buy hundreds of millions of dollars of Bitcoin

right now. And you get the convenience of it flowing into a retirement account or will and trust. So I think it's an amazing price point. And we've even seen there's a venture fund that decided to use the Bitwise Bitcoin ETF instead of buying Bitcoin directly because of those benefits of that price, I think is so compelling. It means that it's not a sort of an insanely lucrative uh, pursuit. Um, so I hope that firms will continue to, to put their energy behind it because ultimately for large firms to prioritize business initiatives, they need to generate revenue. Um, but it's, you know, it's a fantastic, I think it wound up being a fantastic price. Matt, when you, uh, left the ETF world, you've boomeranged, you've come all the way back around.

What are your friends saying now? Is this like a look at me now situation? Yeah, they're asking for jobs. No, look, it's really exciting to see them come together. ETFs are the great, they're not, you know, they're not tokens. Be careful in this crowd. But they're the greatest packaging tool for traditional financial investments. And on the fee front, an easy way to think about ETFs, if you want to think about ETFs, is that they're a product wrapper that lets my dad buy the same exposure at the same cost as the Harvard endowment. And they're doing the same thing in Bitcoin, right? you can now get the stack that Hunter talked about, which you could get if you were the Harvard endowment at very low fees working with some of these great custodians. But now literally everyone can get that same deal. That's what ETFs do. So it's beautiful to see these come together. And I think it's just the start. We're going to see Ethereum ETFs. Eventually we'll see ETFs on everything and it'll be a multi-hundred billion dollar plus business. You said it. Bitwise, Thanks, everyone.