The Pomp Podcast - #1352 Bill Barhydt | $50 Trillion Is Coming To Bitcoin & Crypto

Episode Date: April 29, 2024

Bill Barhydt is the Co-Founder & CEO of Abra, a new type of digital cash payments app and network enabling the transfer of cash between any two smartphones. In this conversation, we talk about the brand new regulatory approval as a registered investment advisor, what that means for Abra, how they can service both credited & uncredited investors now, why allowing basic financial services has been so difficult, and where the industry is going. ======================= Buy and sell cryptocurrency in a tax-advantaged crypto IRA with iTrustCapital. Enjoy 24/7 access, lowest fees in the industry, and tax benefits for your retirement. Open an account today at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.itrustcapital.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ======================= Core Scientific (NASDAQ: CORZ) is one of the largest public Bitcoin miners and hosting solutions providers for Bitcoin mining in North America. To learn more about Core Scientific, please visit: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.corescientific.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/ ======================= View 10k+ open startup jobs: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. Today's episode is with Bill Barheit. He is the founder and CEO of Abra. In this conversation, we talk about the brand new regulatory approval as a registered investment advisor, what that means for Abra, how they can

go ahead and service both accredited and unaccredited investors now, and why allowing things like trading, earning, yield, borrowing, and many other basic financial services has been so hard previously, and why now you're going to be able to do it in an RIA structure that leverages separately managed accounts. This conversation is fascinating because it reveals where the industry is going and how companies are learning to work with regulators. And so I think that you're going to learn a ton from it. Here is my conversation with Bill Barheight. Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments.

You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. taxes when you make profits. That sounds pretty taxing. There's another way you can buy and sell crypto without worrying about taxes. At iTrust Capital, you can buy and sell crypto inside of a tax-advantaged crypto IRA. Crypto IRAs are retirement accounts that work similarly to an exchange, but with tax benefits. Let me give you an example. If you can buy and sell crypto on an

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Go to itrustcapital.com. That's itrustcapital.com. Today's episode is brought to you by Core Scientific. They're one of the largest public Bitcoin mining companies and hosting solutions in North America. They specialize in transforming energy into high value compute with exceptional efficiency at scale, and recently announced a contract with CoreWeave, a leader in AI cloud compute, to provide up to 16 megawatts of data center capacity. With a substantial fleet of their

own miners, CoreScientific not only earns Bitcoin for their own account, but also provides hosting services for large-scale Bitcoin mining customers operating out of seven data centers in Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, North Dakota, and Texas. You can learn more about CoreScientific by visiting CoreScientific.com. That's CoreScientific.com. Go check them out today. All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Bill here. Bill, it feels like during the entire crypto winter, there was massive scrutiny. There was tons of problems with companies that offered trading of cryptocurrencies, yield on cryptocurrencies, borrowing, earning, etc. You all were one of those companies. It felt like every regulatory body was scrutinizing this

business model and these companies, but you've come out the other side and you have kind of a new twist and some regulatory approvals that I think a lot of people are wondering, what are you doing and how did you get this done? And so maybe you can just walk us through what happened during that bear market. And then how did you guys get to the other side of this with this new regulatory approval? Sure. So there were really three aspects to what I'll call the lending yield space, right? There was staking itself, which is basically just earning yield via staking ethereum or staking solana or any other stakeable proof of stake assets then there's the yield via lending which is could either be direct lending collateralized you know borrowing dollars

collateralized in bitcoin and then there's defi uh based uh yield so that's that's kind of the yield is part two and then third is borrowing against your own assets right so that's just that's just literally lending out and so we'll come back to the lending in a bit but on the staking and borrowing slash yield side, right? The states in particular came down, certain states came down very hard on players in the space that these were security offerings. Now, for most companies in the space, it didn't matter because they died, right? Celsius, Voyager, BlockFi, you know, et cetera, et cetera, they're gone. So there's nothing to fight other than who gets the money back, right? And they're basically, and that's a function of the fact that these were

all pooled assets in a bank-like structure where when you pool the assets, you became a liability on the company's balance sheet, meaning your Bitcoin that you're earning yield on became a liability on Celsius' balance sheet, right? So that was a major problem in and of itself, independent of the fact that they thought that staking in many states like California and others was a security offering, okay? So that all basically got shut down in a myriad means, including settlements with us for our old business. To this day, in like 15 or 20 states, you can't stake Ethereum or Solana on a whole bunch of exchanges in the United States. And that's because basically they're fighting with Coinbase and others that those staking processes where they're in the middle are security offerings.

Now, my personal feelings on that don't matter. we capitulated and we said look we're going to settle this out and we're not going to do it that way anymore so to your question what we did is we went back to the drawing board and we said okay let's let's just assume that we're going to bite the bullet and play nice and and basically say that you know we're going to offer some type of securities account for doing this in a very simple manner what's the most straightforward way to do that in other words come in and register and when we analyzed, what we realized is that there is a wealth advisory model in the United States that should allow you to do this. So we investigated, we documented, we argued with

lawyers over the course of almost a year. And we basically came up with a registered investment advisory model, RIA model, that allows us to offer yield, staking, lending, basic investment in crypto through, again, through this RIA model. But it also, it's beautiful for a couple of reasons. One, you're not a liability on my balance sheet, right? Which means if we go away, you still retain title to your assets. So for the people listening to this, it's kind of a tough pill to swallow. We're still fighting with the estates of Celsius and FTX and BlockFi and Voyager to get their assets back, that can't happen here because you're retaining title. And it uses what we call a separately managed account structure, which many high net worth investors are familiar with

from the equity space. SMAs manage trillions of dollars in assets in the United States and similar models around the world. So to my knowledge, we were able to get approval for this through a lot of hard work on the legal side and are the first to do so in the United States. So there are other RIAs for crypto in the United States, but they're not directly for consumers via an account model doing yield, staking, lending. So you can deposit Bitcoin in your SMA and borrow dollars out, right? And we use DeFi. This is the cool part. We use DeFi for 100% of our lending and yield and staking services, right?

Abra is not a counterparty to any transaction in the system. We're simply deploying out of the SMA on behalf of our clients, which is what an advisor is supposed to do. And that's a big breakthrough as far as I know. I'm not familiar with any other pure play service that does yield where it's 100% based on DeFi now. So when you think about this new model, there's really three components in my mind. There's the regulatory kind of structure and approval. There is the SMA component. And then there is the interfacing with DeFi.

There's a lot of bells and whistles, but those are the three main components. On the regulatory approval, I use approval specifically because you can't just elect to be an RIA and all of a sudden, you just start acting like an RIA. You got to go, you got to present an application, the SEC and other regulatory bodies all evaluate this, and there's somebody who says, okay, yep, thumbs up, you get approved, knock yourself out. What was that process like? And I'm assuming it wasn't just like sending the application, a day later, they send back

the approval. So what did you have to do to get through that to actually become an approved RIA? As a matter of fact, I think a day later, they sent back the night. And we kind of expected it. We lawyered up. We have multiple law firms. I mean, look, the last couple of years has been a legal nightmare for everyone who survived. I've spoken to every CEO that you know in this space at one time or another over the last couple of years, and it has been brutal.

Now, it's less brutal than dying, right, to a degree, because, you know, you got to, I mean, distress every day. Okay, so no sympathy gained, I'm sure, on any of that. But we basically lawyered up last summer, documented every nuance of what we thought we would need to document, put an entirely new compliance program in place, because this model is different than the way we operated via retail in the past. put an entirely new platform in place because of the separately managed account structure that I described before. That's a new architecture. We have to put staff through compliance training. You have all kinds of disclosure requirements. Just to get to the point where we submitted the application, I'm not using the legal terminology, but whatever the right term is, the application to the SEC took us the better part of almost a year.

So it's a lot of upfront work. So this idea of you want to be an RIA on Tuesday, you wake up and on Wednesday you're an RIA, that's not going to happen. That's nonsense. So yes, tremendous amount of work. You lawyer up hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees, more than one iteration with the SEC, a whole bunch of compliance training and new systems. communications get monitored when you're, you know, when you come in and register, et cetera,

et cetera. And then talk about the SMAs, right? Obviously lots of investors use them. It would have helped investors in some of these cases with these other platforms. Do you think that the industry now like SMAs are going to end up being the standard or do you still see there being kind of pooled funds and the SMAs is one option, but there will be plenty of assets still kept in other models? I think you would have to be crazy to put six, seven, eight, nine figures of assets into a pooled model, given everything we've learned over the last few years. So many people have talked about this, the mismatch between how crypto transactions move, how banks work. Talk about the ETFs for a second. What happened a couple of weeks ago when Iran sent

drones and aircraft to Israel? What happened to Bitcoin that weekend? And so, you know, retail investors, okay, I've got a bunch of, you know, $2,000 in my IRA or my 401k, you know, the price went down fine. But if you're sitting on millions of dollars in crypto, and you basically want to hedge yourself on Saturday night, you can't do it, right? Banks are closed more than they're open, right? Stock markets closed more than it's open. So I would that a vehicle that trades 24-7 the same way Bitcoin trades and makes that accessible 24-7 is the right way to do this. And high net worth investors have known this for decades. We're just now making it available to everyone. And that's a breakthrough.

So exchanges are not meant for basically buy-hold investing. They're meant for trading and speculation. That's fine. There's a place for that, right? We're basically saying there's a place for investors to invest and that's different from trading. And then talk to me about the interfacing with DeFi. Obviously, it's exciting. I think that, you know, there's a lot of people probably say, hey, this is part of the like promise of a lot of this technology. But at the same time, are there risks or how do you think about like the pros and cons of this decision, both for your business and for the user? So the way I think about accessing DeFi through Abra now, through Abra Capital Management, is that we want to make the risks the same

as if you knew what you were doing and accessing DeFi via MetaMask. So with the caveat that we're not going to go full-on degen and choose brand new protocols that have $10 million total value locked and make them accessible to our high net worth clients. We're going to do upfront homework as we have for years because we've been using DeFi for a long time. It's just this is the first time we're making it available as a standard. So what we do is we go in and we choose the DeFi systems that have the most TVL, are the most liquid, have the most kind of tried and true transaction volume, and represent the best investment opportunities in terms of yield,

interest rates, et cetera, et cetera, for our clients, and we make those available to them. And basically what's happening is it's like the advisor is deploying via a MetaMask-like model, but in a way that our clients don't have to understand this conversation. The risk disclosures associated with DeFi, they can read, right? To the SEC's point all along, people aren't disclosing the risk. Well, we do, right? There's a long set of documents that they have access to, they've seen that are actually on the SEC's website that disclose all this. And the clients can read them in detail, ask questions or not. It's their choice. And then they tell us where they want to deploy it and we manage the deployment for them.

But again, 100% DeFi based. And so far, the clients seem to love it. And what are the advantages on the DeFi? Obviously, there's the decentralization and kind of no counterparty or a different counterparty that the user is interfacing with. but are there higher yields available? Are there lower fee structures? What are some of the other things that the clients now are starting to experience? So there's several advantages. You alluded to one, which is you're not taking named corporate counterparty risk, meaning you're not taking counterparty risk to Abra. You're not taking counterparty risk to a named borrower, which was the model that the dead companies in the yield space were doing. You're taking

making pure DeFi risk. Now, if you remember in the early days of the Celsius bankruptcy, nothing was getting repaid with one exception. They had some exposure to DeFi and they had to pay back those loans or they were going to get liquidated. And they did because the system worked as correct as it was supposed to and you couldn't stop it, meaning there's no off switch. And that's the way it's supposed to work.

So the beauty there is that you're not taking any counterparty risk other than the fact you're taking smart contract risk and we're leveraging smart contracts that have been tested in some cases for years now and that's what we want right and we explain that to our clients and so the other benefit is that yes there's opportunities that we can recommend that our clients rotate into on occasion because you know bitcoin might be paying you know abnormally high yield like nine or ten percent which happens on occasion and a lot of times you can't capture it very quickly you know if you don't know what you're doing as a kind of a metamask user who doesn't know how to deploy into contracts and we can text the client or email a client and say hey

you want to get on the phone because there's an opportunity here for something we've been testing with our own money that we think you should consider deploying into and we can now recommend that fairly quickly for our clients and it's very very easy for our quants uh our analysts to test these new uh these new opportunities as they unfold and they are every day. And we have a group that does nothing but test those things. And so that's the advantage that our clients have now. And then talk about what I'll call kind of high net worth accredited, you know, private clients, institutions, and then you also are able to service unaccredited investors as well. And so like, what are the differences that you're seeing across these

different groups? Oh, yeah. So I would say on the high end, we have mining clients that take advantage of structured products hedging you know they're they're using uh auto liquidation capabilities on our over-the-counter trading desk and you know obviously our lower end retail clients don't need that most of them want to buy and hold and they can earn some yield on their dollars so sure that's fine so again on the high end might be everything from you know large block orders for trading um you know hedging positions uh via you know the mining uh you know mining auto liquidations to crypto ATM networks that have to replenish on a Sunday when markets are screaming. We do a lot of that as well. So that's kind of a high-end, very traditional prime model,

right? They might be looking to trade on credit, which we wouldn't be in a position to do for retail, for example. So they'll onboard and send us financials and go through risk management and things like that. High net worth retail, probably the most bespoke thing they're interested in doing is borrowing against their bitcoin right so they'll basically say i'm going to park x million dollars worth of bitcoin and i want to borrow y dollars and so we'll basically again use defy through the ria to manage those loans for them going forward which is really cool right so basically like they're not taking counterparty risk to average even for the loan so they're just borrowing directly from a d5 protocol and then on the low end it could easily be you know

I want to buy $25,000 worth of Bitcoin. I'm happy to park it in a yield account. I want to leave $100,000 of stable coins in our dollar cost averaging over time. It's as simple as that, right? So you've got a whole gamut of services that we're able to offer now because we've carefully put the right legal structures in place. One of the interesting, I think, kind of developments that we're going to have to see here is for the last couple of years, it's been like Bitcoin and crypto are one end of the

spectrum, traditional finance is on the other. The ETF is starting to bridge the gap. Is your vision that eventually we will just see, I'll have an investment account and I could have stocks, I can have crypto, I can have these different assets and maybe companies like Abra are actually backing into being full-fledged financial service providers? Yeah. So when you're full-on in crypto, putting real-world assets aside, you're inside of the matrix. That's my favorite analogy. And an ETF, kind of like an exchange, represents a hard line into the matrix. The exchange hard line is good because it works 24-7, except for bank wires.

Those can only be processed 15 and 20 hours a week. ETFs can only basically buy and sell 30 hours a week, 35 hours a week, whatever it is. So those hard lines have a lot of limitations. The SMA puts you inside the matrix. Separately managed account puts you inside the matrix. So you're using something that in the background works very similar to how you and I would just use MetaMask to deploy in a DeFi. That's super cool. And then we also give you the wire access to be able to get your stable coins into the system, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that

this is the future for wealth management, not only for crypto, but full stop. Because real world assets, once they're tokenized, are going to end up in these securities accounts as well. and then you can basically make tokenized real estate fungible with Bitcoin through an SMA and then choose which assets you're going to borrow against using some oracle to decide what the price or value of the assets is in order to give you the loan. Super interesting, right? So I do think that there's a bifurcation coming between trading and investing, right? And trading makes sense on exchanges through our prime business, just like others have prime businesses and investing traditionally through advisors.

We're just giving you a next generation architecture that's still compliant with the existing rules. And I saw recently that there's a proposal to make the stock market trade 24-7. I don't know if it'll get approved or not, but gets at some of these points that maybe the crypto industry has pushed forward by just existing,

where there's traders in the traditional market who are like, hey, these guys could trade 24-7. Like, why can't we? Do you think that stuff will happen? And like, are you anticipating many of the advantages that the crypto market has had will come to these traditional assets? Sure. So look, we've been, we used to call it straight through processing. I was at Goldman in the early nineties and we were talking about straight through processing 30 years ago. And here we are still talking about it and it doesn't exist. I think there are a lot of entities I'm looking up here, just trying to think

this through, but I think there's a lot of entities disincentivized for this to happen in the U.S. in the short term. I do think that T plus zero or straight through processing or real-time settlement 24-7 for equities is going to happen outside the U.S. relatively soon in certain markets. And I think it will be a good attractor, meaning list on our market, and I'm making this up now, in Dubai or Abu Dhabi or Singapore, markets that have been open to this stuff or in Switzerland. Switzerland, a little older, might take a while, but probably more open than the U.S. anyway. And that'll be an attraction because it's a competitive planet. You don't have to list your U.S. stock in a NASDAQ or NYC. You can list it in Asia or Europe or

Singapore, whatever, right? And so I think that this is going to be a competitive advantage for certain markets that can move faster than the U.S. I think the implication of your question was, what is the U.S. going to do? And I think that we will get to, you know, from T plus five to to T plus zero over the next X years. I don't know what X is. I would venture a guess that it's less than 10 and more than three. And we'll probably require a new administration that is more investor friendly and recognizes that the tokenization of assets isn't the second coming of Satan. You mentioned other geographies. What are you all seeing with either clients in other geographies or partners in terms of their enthusiasm, their capital flows,

various things that they're doing on that front? Yeah. So look, I'm super bullish on a bunch of things. I mean, real-world assets started with stablecoins. And by the way, I actually group Bitcoin in the real-world asset category now, which maybe I'm the first to do that. I don't know because we're seeing people borrow against it. So once you can borrow against the commodity, to me, it's a real-world asset.

But we're seeing globally miners trying to figure this out. What portion do I liquidate? Where do I take risk? How do I hedge? How do I borrow? Huge flows there. I'm getting inbound questions all the time. Can you help us with the overflow on stuff that we can't fulfill the exchanges on the

ETFs? I do a ton of work with high net worth investors. I speak at a lot of high net worth investor events, not crypto specific. is more like, how do I diversify away from real estate stocks into other uncorrelated things? And it feels like an order of magnitude more interesting and even bigger than it did in 21 when we were starting to ride the yield wave back then. So this feels bigger. And I would posit that institutions outside of crypto native aren't here yet. We've talked about it. And when When we say BlackRock, BlackRock is servicing retail today.

If you think about who's buying these ETFs, it's 401Ks, it's IRAs, it's the E-Trades. We're now seeing, I'm hearing, permission coming from institutions to participate in some cases via the ETF. So I do predict in the second half of the year, we're going to see a lot of institutions come in via these equity vehicles, which has been fantastic marketing for Abras so far. Because when I explain, like we did talk about earlier, the difference between buying an ETF and an SMA, if you're investing more than half a million dollars, the SMA wins almost every time for the reasons that we've already talked about. And so I think that there's the existing flows, and we have, I think, a pretty good understanding of where the new flows are going to be coming from over the next few months and years. And then what is the kind of end state for Abra over the next five or 10 years?

So you're talking a lot about the industry, but like, what is the thing that you guys are driving towards? And when you guys sit down in your product meeting, that kind of product, um, you know, a pipeline, what does that look like? So, so I'm going to put the legal terminology aside for a second. So I'm going to use some terms that the, that the regulators don't like me to use. So, so, so I see Abra long-term as a big global bank for crypto. Okay.

Now I'm not using the term the way the regulators agree with or whatever. I'm just saying, what does it mean to be a bank? It means you can hold your stuff, you can earn interest on your stuff, and you can borrow against your stuff, right? Whether it's a HELOC on a house or borrowing against your Bitcoin, which I think is going to be the biggest and fastest growing aspect of lending over the next 20 years globally, right? Because if you have this asset that's just going to Valhalla and people who didn't have

access to credit can borrow against it instantly, that's going to be just a boon for lending, right? So I see Abra as being on a path to becoming the premier global crypto bank via whatever regulatory means we have to do that. Now, when you and I first met, I don't know, maybe eight years ago, we were talking about money transfer and payments. And I think that's all coming. Now, we're getting there in a different way than what I had either predicted or maybe

even wanted versus when I first had the ideas for all of this pre-Ethereum, it was just Bitcoin. But we're getting there, right? And now we have stable coins. I had to invent a synthetic dollar in the early days of ABRA because there was no Ethereum. I was just too early. And now all this infrastructure is there, right? I can easily access DeFi to process loans and do money transfer and all the things I want to do. And so we may be working from the top down in terms of institutions, high net worth investors, middle-class investors, and hopefully sooner rather than later to the bottom of the pyramid.

But, you know, legally, it's unfortunately, the further down the pyramid you go from an income perspective, the harder it gets legally, which it should be the opposite, honestly. But we have what we have. And so that's my vision. My vision is to be the premier global crypto bank that services every aspect of the income pyramid for, you know, the next generation, which is DeFi based. And, you know, we're just going to make it easily accessible to everyone starting at the top and making our way down.

I think that that is incredibly compelling as you guys go to build it. The last thing I'll leave with you is there's great debate on Bitcoin, smart contract platforms, various assets, etc. What do you think people's portfolios look like five or 10 years from now? Is it like Bitcoin is a store of value and then all these other things are kind of like technology stocks that they're trying to figure out where value accrues? Or how do you just think about like the portfolio construction and how that will evolve? Yeah, I had dinner with a very famous CIO from a large RIA last night and we were having a raging debate about what it means to hold cash flow assets like a stock versus real estate versus Bitcoin.

And I was making the case that every time I look at an investment opportunity, and I see a lot, I've been living in Silicon Valley for 30 years, I compare it to my crypto holdings. And I say, do I believe that the cash flow potential from this stock over five years warrants me selling or giving up a piece of my Bitcoin, a piece of my Solana, a piece of my Ethereum? And 99.9% of the time right now the answer is no. Okay, so that's me and I have conviction for why this is an exponentially growing technology and how that maps out.

But getting back to reality for the average investor, I do think you're going to see real world assets become tokenized, especially starting outside the US like you talked about, and you're going to have all these investment services that basically make them all fungible, meaning I can hold real estate, I can hold stocks, I can hold bonds, I can hold crypto, native crypto, and they're all fungible because they're all tokens I can trade across each other or borrow against. I can pull real estate, Bitcoin, and stocks and take one loan because it's in one separately managed account and it has a value.

How is it going to break down in terms of native crypto holdings versus stocks and real estate? I don't know. I think that we're still in the very, very beginning of the global investment community getting exposure to the native crypto stuff, Bitcoin, Solana, Ethereum, et cetera, et cetera. That's going to go to, what is it now? Two and a half trillion. I think that's going to go to $50 trillion over the next 10 years, and if not sooner, and that's going to change everything because now you're going to have these credit markets that just weren't possible before because nobody knew how to give people in the Philippines credit or give people in India credit, and they will now. Right.

$50 trillion is a big number, but the trajectory seems to be headed that way for sure. So there's a lot of people who are excited about that happening, but there's a lot of work to do between here and here and there. Where can we send people to find you on the internet or find out more about what Abra is or if they want to download, sign up, et cetera? Yeah, sure. Abra.com is a great place to get some more information

on what we're doing. I'm reasonably active these days on Twitter, BillBarrX on Twitter and Abra Global on Twitter. So we're pretty easy to find. We're out there and we're pretty engaged. Awesome, Bill. Well, listen, thank you so much for taking the time to do this.

I think that people will really enjoy this one And as always, we will definitely do it again in the future. Thanks, bud. Great to see you.