The Pomp Podcast - #1387 Hany Rashwan | Donald Trump Will Convince Countries To Buy Bitcoin?!

Starting point is 00:00:00 What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. What's up, guys? Bang, bang. Today, we have a special treat. We've got Hany Rashwan. He is the founder and CEO of 21Shares. They got over $7 billion in assets, and they're all focused on

Starting point is 00:00:42 crypto. These guys have gone all around the world in both the public markets and in the private markets. They're helping investors from institutions down to retail figure out how to get allocated to crypto. They've got tons of data, they've got tons of assets, and they've got tons of insights. this conversation breaks down everything that they've learned what's going on around the world in terms of regulation politics and what the united states can learn about those regions so we can see around the corner and understand what comes next for us here is my conversation with honey anthony pompliano runs pomp investments all views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of pomp investments you should not treat

Starting point is 00:01:23 any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Today's episode is brought to you by Domain Money. I get asked all the time, Pomp, where should I go for financial advice? Now, as you all know, I can't personally give financial advice, but I now know people who can. Domain Money makes financial planning straightforward and accessible. They tailor plans to your personal priorities and goals, whether you want to buy a big house, whether you want to fund college, or you want to take that dream vacation. Now, I'm not a Domain Money client, and they are paying me for this ad, as you know.

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Starting point is 00:04:09 Well, set yourself up to take home the most profit possible using crypto to fund your sports betting, casino, and poker account at betonline.ag. You can avoid costly transaction fees, get your payouts lightning fast, and do it all securely and anonymously with the highest deposit and withdrawal limits in the industry. If you want to get in on the action, do it the smart way with crypto at betonline.ag. Head to the website, sign up with promo code POMP100 to get a 100% bonus on your crypto deposit today. if you go and you deposit they'll give you 100 bonus if you use promo code pomp 100 bet online the game starts here betonline.ag go check them out today all right guys bang bang honey i thought a great place to start this conversation is you all have some of the leading etfs you have a bitcoin one you've got an ether one uh talk a little bit as

Starting point is 00:05:01 to just what you all have seen in the market it seems like people are buying bitcoin etfs in particular hand over fist they just keep throwing more and more money into the market what are you guys actually seeing happen on the ground bitcoin is the um is the most wildly known it is uh almost synonymous with crypto at this point uh the bitcoin market cap is what 1.1 billion um or so so it represents a majority of the uh overall total crypto market cap it's something that most people have heard of understand at some level uh smart contracts ethereum solana avalanche polygon cardano etc um are still not a very known entity um to most people and so maybe they've heard they've heard of ethereum because it's been getting more and more press but i doubt that most

Starting point is 00:05:56 people today can even describe ethereum rather well and so the amount of education that is required to explain uh and to understand what ethereum is far exceeds what bitcoin is and simplicity is a very very powerful thing and so for the time being a lot of people are excited about blockchain a lot of people are excited about crypto as innovative pieces of technology in addition to that you have a lot of people worried about politics uh their own uh territories fiscal and monetary policies including here in the us i mean we're all worried about the debt and we don't have very clear answers from either side of the aisle and so bitcoin has been absolutely popular and getting even more so uh but what we find is that typically speaking

Starting point is 00:06:46 um people enter with bitcoin they learn a little bit more about uh ethereum and the blockchain then they they get into the rabbit hole and at 21 shares i think we have close now to 50 etps and etfs around the world in over a dozen countries and so at some point you end up with the more esoteric niche assets and a greater understanding of them but oftentimes the gateway into this world is bitcoin which is part of why you see uh such a huge amount of uh of demand for it. The other thing is that part of the cycle that we're in, we're not exactly back to the bull market, although we've clearly escaped the bear. Bitcoin starts to build up along with the happening and the market cycle between the bear and the bull market. It's very clear why Bitcoin

Starting point is 00:07:35 right now is incredibly popular, but I would expect the alts to start picking up at some point next year. Now, why is the Ether ETFs not nearly as popular as the Bitcoin ETFs? Is it just all brand, as you're mentioning, and Bitcoin kind of dominates? Or are there other things that you think are maybe deterring or just having lack of interest for the Ether ETFs in comparison? So there are two kinds of investors, right? There are the institutional investors who need to basically have this approved. And it took them a really, really long time to approve Bitcoin. And Ethereum is going to take a similarly long time to get through their compliance and risk committees and what have you. And then on the retail side, it's about brand. Again, go out in

Starting point is 00:08:24 the streets and ask anyone about Bitcoin and ask anyone about Ethereum and tell me how well they explain Bitcoin and how well they explain Ethereum. And more often than not, I think they more or less get Bitcoin. But with Ethereum, it's just a little bit more complex and earlier in its cycle. Now, in the United States, staking with the Ether ETFs is not allowed in terms of, I don't think the issuers can stake the Ether. And also, even if there was staking rewards, they can't pass it back to the kind of ETF shareholder. Talk a little bit as to, you know, guys operate across the globe there are certain jurisdictions where you can give that staking reward how much does that drive people allocating to like an ether etp versus you know if they're

Starting point is 00:09:10 not allowed to actually participate in that that's an excellent question and and as you can manage and we get this a few times um i think the answer will surprise you so first of all our ambition is to include staking in our ethereum etfs in america as soon as possible we we are working diligently um and aggressively with with the regulator both both in the us and elsewhere where we don't have staking to add staking we think it's an important feature to have we want to pass on the rewards to the end clients um and it's something that we'll continue pushing for like i said it's it's our vision and ambition that said if we just go back to what we were just talking about there are a a couple of different kinds of investors on the institutional investor side something that may

Starting point is 00:10:00 surprise you is that uh sometimes more often than you would assume or think they can't get ethereum with staking past their committees for approval and so um in europe for example where we're the largest crypto etf issuer on that continent we have not one but two ethereum etfs one stakes one does not stake and the one that doesn't stake still has nine figures worth of aum in it and it's mostly composed of either people who gravitate towards the lowest fees possible without um wanting staking on top of it or more often than not institutional investors who cannot invest in ethereum if it stakes because the way that they would perceive it is that staking is an additional risk factor that is not 100 guaranteed and therefore for

Starting point is 00:10:58 whatever reason their i see their investment committee or their other risk and compliance committees have not approved yet of investing in a staking uh or a stakeable uh exchange traded product and so it will take a while and we will get it passed um and we've seen this a lot in in other geographies as well sometimes we start without staking and at staking later because the regulator just needs a little bit more time to get educated get caught up um and and feel more comfortable approving it but on the other uh hand and for the foreseeable future i really do think that uh there is going to be a large amount of demand for a non-staking ultra conservative ethereum cardano solana avalanche etc etps when those assets get approved do you see the crypto

Starting point is 00:11:57 native kind of retail investor being the ones allocating to it or do you think that institutions say i want diversification or are they going to treat this kind of like you know uh i'm going to do some stock picking i'm going to try to actually pick who the winners are going to be here it's absolutely the fire the embers the root the foundations of the fire are absolutely retail investors um we've talked about this a lot retail investors are unique with crypto in that most new asset classes have been uh started and pushed by more institutional types who have reaped most of the rewards and in crypto it's the exact opposite uh and that still holds true today the retail is absolutely the base the bitcoin etfs and the ethereum etfs in america uh we've seen some

Starting point is 00:12:45 pension funds and then teacher and firefighter unions allocate money to it and it's so exciting and we're speaking to more and more every day and we hope to get more and more but the base is still quite retail heavy now on the institutional side just to answer your question um more long-term focused um long holders of this asset uh typically take a while to get this past the committees and approved uh we are still working through several processes with larger institutional investors uh for the bitcoin etf which in america we we listed in january now another kind of institutional investor the more activist active sorry um active trading hedge funds and the discretionary funds and things like that they're stock picking or maybe they're momentum trading or maybe they're

Starting point is 00:13:39 doing a number of other things you you sometimes see market makers or um hedge funds do the basis trade for example um and all of these kinds of financial engineering or momentum trading or or stock picking, as you called it, that we are seeing a lot with the ETFs, which are highly liquid, their securities, they're part and parcel of what they are familiar with and what they can trade in. But by and large, even though a lot of more traditional institutional pension funds, insurance companies, some have started dipping their toes in the water, no one is fully in yet. Now, we mentioned the staking earlier and retail being the ones buying a lot of this stuff. How important is cash flow and yield and dividends and the staking rewards to these retail investors?

Starting point is 00:14:31 And the reason why I ask that question is I think a lot of people almost assume, well, aren't the retail investors just like the GameStop investors? This is all speculation. This is all just like, can it go up 20x or I'm not interested? So the fact that some of the reasons why people are buying these may actually go counterintuitive to the pure, like, speculator mindset. Not in our experience. In my personal experience, our AUM and our customers are the stickiest possible. You'd be surprised. Things break.

Starting point is 00:15:06 Hacks happen. People don't sell. People have a very long-term perspective on this. And there's a lot of research on this, right? The amount of Bitcoin that has moved, the amount of Bitcoin that has remained, et cetera. It baffles people. It's a rather high percent. With respect to cash flow and dividends and things like that, that's actually not how

Starting point is 00:15:28 staking usually works in an exchange traded product, because the way it usually works is that it's not a dividend that I actually give to you in cash. it's almost like it's a dividend in kind that adds to the amount of Ethereum per share that a share is worth. And it's actually really difficult to do cash disbursements because it's so inconsistent. The staking fee feels like this annualized rate, but it's not, right? depending on the blockchain you will get some reward that is variable every four to 24 hours some of which like polka dot is locked up for weeks at a time uh some of which like ethereum is locked up for lesser periods and so it's actually very difficult like logistically

Starting point is 00:16:26 operationally for me to even give those back as cash dividends it would be super inconsistent the way people think about a cash dividend is oh on a on a monthly basis or an annual basis something happens uh but actually the easiest way that happens in and how our products are constructed is that with every staking event uh the amount of crypto underlying your share increases slightly and then on an annualized basis that that ends up adding i don't know two to ten percent uh depending on on what the asset is and what the staking yield for it is what's unique about 21 shares which i think i've been an investor now for a number of years uh is that you guys operate globally um and well it has been a minute but it you know success takes time you know

Starting point is 00:17:14 there's this uh saying i forget where i heard it uh but excellence doesn't have a watch right like it just it happens and you get a compound um you guys operate globally and so you guys are exposed more so than many others in the industry to different jurisdictions different regulatory bodies in america it feels like the political class is now meeting bitcoin and crypto class you know they're kind of uh um showing up saying hey nice to meet you you know shaking hands do we like each other do we not you've seen this play out many times before in these other regions like tell us what else has happened in the world and is it just gonna be a repeat like is it the same thing in every jurisdiction and the us is just now playing out and we can already look to

Starting point is 00:17:52 see what the conclusion is or has there been different outcomes in these different jurisdictions yeah i think it should be the same um over um you know some time period it's all the same uh people in the end um oftentimes after trying every possible way of battling it stymieing it uh trying to defeat it one way or another realize a this is inevitable um cats out of the bag pandora's box is opened you can't really limit it um and then b it's not just inevitable and we're being forced into it but but this is actually a pretty cool thing that can um change things on a fundamental level for my citizens for my country for my country standing etc i mean the the single greatest use case of crypto are stable coins

Starting point is 00:18:50 last year visa settled 10 trillion dollars stable coins settled 9.3 trillion dollars that is being felt um in a lot of places and and reducing payment costs remittance costs is a net positive for countries um it takes a minute though it does take a while uh and it's pretty confusing like i i do think we should give credit to regulators because this is not understanding encryption is not a core part of their job um this is not what they signed up for right um the um one of the funniest things i've ever heard about crypto i think it was john oliver the comedian who said this and he's like crypto's sort of like the venn diagram of what everyone does not understand about economics combined with what everyone does not understand about technology

Starting point is 00:19:41 and it's actually true right like you want a lesson in bitcoin well uh let's discuss mises and the austrian school of economics let's also discuss encryption and consensus algorithms and let's figure out politics and social behavior on top of it uh it's confusing it it takes it took us a minute and we're not fully there yet um you and i are in the space 24 7 and i don't know that i know everything in the space uh comfortably of course not i'm continuously uh expanding and and unlearning new um concepts and so imagine that from the regulators standpoint now i do think that we should take a step back and really like deeply appreciate those regulators that have been courageous uh aggressive that have been prescient

Starting point is 00:20:38 in many ways because it's not easy it's actually rather hard and sometimes the tide is pretty against you um switzerland comes to mind which is where 21 shares is headquartered it's where we've listed our first product uh a big part of why we are as big as we are today days because of how uh wonderful of a base Switzerland provided us especially in our early days um Dubai and the UAE are pretty good jurisdictions Singapore has done some intelligent things the UK now is doing some intelligent things Mika in Europe was actually a pretty courageous thing that is going to have incredibly positive ramifications from it and when we started We obviously spoke to our home regulator.

Starting point is 00:21:25 The first people that we called were the American regulators, the state regulators, the federal regulators, because we wanted to list it here. But America is sort of like a huge oil tanker that just takes a while to turn compared with some of the more nimble sailboats that you have globally. But I agree with you. I think that the same realizations are now coming true here, which is crypto is here to stay. It's not going anywhere. You can't stop it. And it's not necessarily a bad thing because actually it has a lot of very positive benefits for our society. And you're going to start seeing more and more politicians realize that. I forget the actual number, but stable coins, for example, are one of the top 20 holders of U.S. debt in the recent treasury auctions.

Starting point is 00:22:18 And so when we think about our debt problems and how we've continued to finance our life and how the country is built in this way, clearly areas of growth are very, very interesting. And crypto may represent an incredible new area of growth that is akin to the petrodollar or the euro bond market or any of the other major foundations that enabled the dollar to continue maintaining its reserve status over the past century. What's your take on the leading political candidates between, you know, what was Joe Biden now appears to be Kamala Harris. You've got Donald Trump and then you've got RFK. Two of the three for sure. And it actually looks like maybe even the third are becoming much friendlier and not just like, hey, I'm going to leave you guys alone, but actively now courting the industry, the, you know, kind of asset holders. Is that to be expected? And it's just a continuation of kind of this game theory. How do you kind of evaluate the political component in the United States? So I think this is a great question. It doesn't have a very simple answer for what's worth. I'm not trying to be Swiss and neutral here. I'll give you an actual answer. so on one hand most crypto innovation today like at the root level in in the united states is happening out of california and new york and it's predominantly the bay area in california and brooklyn new york very um blue uh areas right very left-leaning predominantly and places of

Starting point is 00:24:03 liberal values right most of bitcoin mining is happening in red states uh texas west texas is part of why ted cruz is really into bitcoin uh miami is um miami and florida in general lean more conservative than than liberal it's more red than blue there georgia is a major center of bitcoin mining. And so you get different parts of the ecosystem are actually supported by different jurisdictions that may be left or may be right. And then on the holders perspective on the retail perspective, I know a lot about us retail customers of crypto. I've never seen a broken down by you know,

Starting point is 00:24:49 Republicans are more likely to own Bitcoin or Democrats are more likely to own Bitcoin. Turns out that americans just like bitcoin and they may like it for different reasons and i think that's fascinating right is that oftentimes we're all climbing the same mountain the conclusion is the same but maybe you've gotten there in a different path or for a different reason uh but at the end of the day a majority of americans like crypto want to own crypto purchase crypto um and i think that will continue to be the case so when you then get into the current political candidates right so outside of uh joe biden dropping out who had policies that made it let's say uh more challenging

Starting point is 00:25:36 to do certain things with crypto in the united states i think in a very stark very very stark difference to what trump has been doing but that's recent right because i'm old enough to remember trump having a very different stance on crypto um and yet his recent speech at the bitcoin conference in uh what was nashville right uh was was exceptional it was everything that the community wanted rfk was there even before but maybe people don't remember that um and i think that that. Kamala just got here, right? She's been the nominee for just a few weeks. I think she is still figuring out what her policy positions are and how to, when there are disagreements with Biden, to share it in a way that is constructive, that emboldens her while not

Starting point is 00:26:32 diminishing him and the administration that she was a part of. But I'm confident that And even though it's unclear exactly where she's going to go with this, given that a majority of blue states, Democrats and Republicans all buy and appreciate this asset, that at some point, almost all the politicians are going to figure that out and and be a part of it, especially because at the end of the day, crypto is just good for America and good for America standing in the world. And I fundamentally believe that in order for the U.S. dollar to maintain its reserve status, which is an incredibly important thing for the U.S. to maintain for as long as possible, crypto is going to be part of that answer. It should be very comforting to Americans that 99% of stable coins are denominated in dollars, and America should be doing more to facilitate more mining here, more stable coins issued in dollars, and more innovation in crypto companies operating out of the U.S. So I think it's a matter of time for everybody, and I'm comforted by how many people are already here on both sides of the aisle. And the biggest example of this is if you look at the legislative branch, the bipartisan bills on stable coins, for example, clearly show that both Democrats and Republicans are suggesting very real, tangible things that should embolden crypto further in the U.S. Tokenization is another topic that I think people were very excited about previously. You mentioned Trump didn't like Bitcoin.

Starting point is 00:28:12 Now he likes Bitcoin. People really like tokenization. Now, actually, it kind of feels like people are like, oh, that's never going to happen. What do you think? Like, there are a couple of institutions and like pretty serious institutions. You see some Black Rocks and Franklin Templetons, et cetera, you know, kind of playing around, dabbling. Is that something that you think will happen?

Starting point is 00:28:31 What does it look like when it does occur? How do you guys anticipate playing in there? Yeah, so I remember our very first conversation, you and I. And one of the things that we talked about are the assumptions that you make because the world that you have lived in has always operated this way. So you don't even think about this being a strange behavior. Like, for example, the stock exchange being closed more hours of the week than it is open. No one really thinks about that. And when you push them, they're like, no, that couldn't be.

Starting point is 00:29:07 And then you do the math and you're like, that makes no sense. Um, I think this is one of those instances is if you get to see how the sausage is made and how our financial system is actually architected, turns out that settlement and clearing, um, has a lot of issues, um, it's being held together by duct tape. Turns out that custody banks and third-party administrators, um, accounting services, auditors etc it would behoove all of us and all of these elements to incorporate more programmatic neutral uh ways of of scaling up and that's where tokenization comes is that it is fundamentally better faster cheaper for a lot of applications that's number one number two is it broadens

Starting point is 00:30:00 accessibility not just in the us but globally and so you have something that is both going to increase margins and revenues reduce costs as well as expand the total market size so how can you not be excited about that it's very clearly going to be part of the future and at some point as you say every bond commodity stock equity etc is going to be tokenized i believe that Now, that being said, it is very important to think about what gets tokenized and when. And this is one of the areas where I think we have really struggled is it can be wonderful to sit back and daydream about a day where you or I could make a bet on all of the luxury condos in the West Village above $1.2 million in value. Wouldn't it be wonderful to buy a basket of that? Sure.

Starting point is 00:31:03 Absolutely. We're not there yet. And that's a very, very difficult thing once you realize that markets need trading, markets need price discovery, they need liquidity. And so my general personal rule with tokenization is I don't think tokenizing something can bring something that has no liquidity to liquidity. That's impossible. But what I do think is that if you already have liquidity, it can actually expand it. And so as a result of that, where have we gotten success with tokenization? We tried the real estate thing a few times.

Starting point is 00:31:41 You were working on initiatives. We were working on initiatives. We've all tried to do some of these things. Because again, on paper, I appreciate how attractive the conclusion seems to be. But actually, when you dig deeper into it, it's just very difficult to think about. And you wonder, what benefits have I built? But where we're now seeing really attractive, high scale, high growth tokenization attempts, A, with the US dollar with stable coins and B, with US treasuries, which is another highly liquid market. These can be used as building blocks to do a bunch of other things.

Starting point is 00:32:19 You'll start seeing equities being tokenized. You'll start seeing ETFs being tokenized. And again, starting with ones where there's already a lot of liquidity. You'll probably see both a stock version of it and a tokenized version of it in the same way that you get Android and iOS versions of apps. You'll be able to either buy this in a crypto wallet or buy this through a brokerage. And then over time, maybe we will converge towards one more than the other. But that's how I think about it overall. And we're going to play a big role in this. um all of our etfs are built on onyx which is our underlying infrastructure our issuance and

Starting point is 00:33:01 administration platform we have a bunch of our competitors and um other third-party asset managers who run off of it and it has the ability to do that it has the ability to issue both a share as well as a token um and so we're we're doing a bunch of things to tokenize highly liquid commodities highly liquid stocks and etfs um funds in general and this is something that i think we will see more and more of before i let you go um talk a little bit about 21 shares uh it's a much bigger business that i think people realize what numbers can you share with us or milestones and kind of you know how do you describe the business today uh yeah it's uh it's gotten to be a bit uh a bit bigger than than we all thought it would be um we are we're over

Starting point is 00:33:52 seven billion in aum uh we are the world's largest issue of crypto etfs by far uh especially by number of products we have something like 50 etfs uh we have the bitcoin and the ethereum and the solana ones but we also have the highest number of baskets we have short bitcoin and short ethereum so that you can hedge or make a bet on the negative price action um we have the highest the largest product suite of stakeable assets and we have all of these thematic um products as well uh we are the the largest crypto etf issuer in europe in the middle east in aipac in australia um and the third largest in the us although we're working very very hard uh to rise even higher than that um about 50 etfs in total um of various types we launch a bunch

Starting point is 00:34:47 uh every year and uh seven billion in aum um and in many cases we were talking about this before the show in many cases a disproportionate amount of uh of some of the crypto assets are in our etf So over a percent of the total Solana in the world is in our ETFs. And we've I remember, you know, this has a billion dollars or more now. And I remember launching this thing with just a couple million dollars a few years ago. And so we've risen so highly because we are a big index

Starting point is 00:35:26 and a growth accelerant of the crypto asset market, which itself has risen like bananas. And so I think we've we've gotten a lot of the rewards from that. Do you have any major milestone predictions between now and the end of whatever bull run we're in now? Like, are there things you're looking forward to that you say, you know, these are things that are still left to actually occur? I think, you know, public pensions buying was one.

Starting point is 00:35:55 Then you got kind of the ETF approvals that's now done. Like, what are the next milestones? Um, a couple of things, um, on the more traditional front, um, I can't wait for the sovereigns to buy. And I'm talking about real sovereign funds. Uh, we're talking to a bunch, a lot of them are doing research and you'll start seeing central banks and sovereign wealth funds, probably the sovereigns first, then central banks hold something. Um, and when they do that, it's going to be, I don't know, to you and me have been in this space for a long time. absolutely ridiculous right this is something that we talked about um the sovereign wealth

Starting point is 00:36:36 are gonna are gonna buy people's bags exactly exactly governments too bro um and so that's that's that's on the traditional side on the more crypto native side um i love stable coins i can't wait to see more innovation there and more use cases because i think it's something that really can touch a lot of people and in a way that they understand and then on the smart contracts platform side um we're quite bullish on solana we think ethereum is is here to stay and going to do a tremendous amount but uh solana is going to enable a new class of applications that could not run as well on ethereum and as a result i think the the next bull market is going to be very very interesting for both of those assets in different ways and i don't know where it ends up but i

Starting point is 00:37:23 really look forward to to watching it i love it where can we send people to find uh 21 shares online 21chairs.com at 21 shares on twitter x thank you very much for doing this we'll do it again soon my friend thanks for having me

The Pomp Podcast - #1387 Hany Rashwan | Donald Trump Will Convince Countries To Buy Bitcoin?!

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