The Pomp Podcast - #1437 Anthony Pompliano & Phil Rosen | Are Countries Buying Bitcoin?!

Episode Date: November 13, 2024

Phil Rosen, the Co-Founder of Opening Bell Daily, and Anthony Pompliano, Author of ‘How To Live An Extraordinary Life’ and CEO of Professional Capital Management, discuss bitcoin, all-time highs, why Wall Street is coming into the market, stocks with exposure to bitcoin, United States putting bitcoin on balance sheet, other countries interest in bitcoin, and what will happen with the ETFs.  ======================= Polkadot is a scalable, secure, and decentralized blockchain technology aimed at creating Web3. Created by Gavin Wood, co-founder of Ethereum, Polkadot empowers users to build decentralized applications with ease. Backed by industry leaders, making it a preferred choice for big names, Polkadot stands out as a leading choice for investors seeking a reliable, future-proof solution in the growing world of Web3 technology. Learn more at ⁠⁠https://polkadot.com/.⁠⁠ ======================= Buy book: https://www.amazon.com/Live-Extraordinary-Life-Anthony-Pompliano/dp/0857199927/ ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/ ======================= View 10k+ open startup jobs: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people so let's get into today's episode what's going on guys today we got an awesome episode with phil rosen phil is the co-founder and editor-in-chief of opening bell daily in this conversation we talk about bitcoin brand new all-time high why is wall street coming

into the market what's going on with price what are some of the stocks that are also going to go up alongside bitcoin i tell you a couple of names that i like or that i'm holding and on top of that phil and i get into some of the details about the united states putting bitcoin on its balance sheet the strategic reserve, whether other countries are buying Bitcoin and what is going to happen with ETFs. This conversation is packed with unique information. If you watch the whole thing, I promise you will learn. So let's get into it. Here's my latest conversation with Phil Rosen. Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat

any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Today's episode is brought to you by Polkadot. Polkadot offers secure, scalable, and decentralized blockchain technology that perfectly aligns with the needs of innovative projects. It was developed by Gavin Wood, one of the co-founders of Ethereum and the creator of Solidity. Polkadot aims to build an internet where users have full control over their data and their applications. Polkadot offers tons of unique features, a shared security model, along with a new auction model and significant implementations like ASIC

banking. Given these characteristics, it's easy to understand why Polkadot is gaining more and more traction in the cryptocurrency world. Some people even are talking about it as the AWS of Web3. Now, companies such as Mythical Games, Astro Network, and over 50 other independent blockchains with hundreds of applications already leverage Polkadot's technology to power their platforms. If you're looking for a reliable, scalable, and cutting-edge solution, Polkadot seems to be the top choice for industry players. Go check them out today at polkadot.com. All right, Phil, what's the first thing you got? Okay, so Bitcoin is everywhere right now. It's up more than 100% for the year,

and more than half of that has come after the election. So everyone expects Trump to be the most pro-crypto president ever, and he's coming in with a crypto-friendly Congress. one week since the election. What are your biggest takeaways from all this? People believe Trump is actually going to do good things for Bitcoin. That's why it's going up. I think people believe that Trump is going to change the regulatory environment. I think that's why it's going up. I think that Bitcoin is telling us that the politicians have increased the national debt by $850 billion in the last 90 days. And so it's telling us, hey, the politicians are spending your money, I'm going up to protect you. And so it's kind of this race to the sky

to see does Bitcoin's price or the national debt grow faster. And then the fourth thing that I think is actually really important is Bitcoin is basically telling us that the market believes cheap capital and more capital is going to come in. So interest rates are going to get dropped and the money supply is going to continue to expand. And so when you get all of those factors, you get this kind of acceleration. The second order effect of that is that Bitcoin is a very reflexive asset. So when you see the price start to run in a weird way, the higher Bitcoin's price goes, the less risky it is. In the stock market, it's the opposite. The higher something goes, people get nervous. Like, oh, is it overvalued? It's going to crash, whatever. Bitcoin started

out worth zero, not even a penny. But as it's grown, the higher the price goes, the less risky it gets. Now it's a trillion dollar asset. Now it's a trillion and a half. Eventually it'll be a $2 trillion asset. And so these large pools of capital start to say, oh, you know what? Now it's a trillion. I can take a look at it. It was too small before. It was too risky before. Now it's a little bit bigger. It's a little bit more volume in the market. Let me go and see if I can allocate now. So the higher the price goes, the larger the pool of capital that can participate, they start buying. That pushes the price higher. It de-risks it even more. More capital comes in. And it's kind of this reflexive thing that continues to drive the price higher and higher.

Yeah, I think I read yesterday Bitcoin is now the eighth largest asset across all asset classes. And I think it's bigger than every public company except for six, and six of the main tech stocks. And speaking of those, so we know Trump always used to watch the stock market in his first term. He'd tweet about it, he'd talk about it. And that gives us some inkling that he will do the same in the second term. He's going to try to push stock prices higher. And Bitcoin tends to go up when stocks go up. Tell me what other public companies are you looking that you think will win big because Bitcoin's going up? Liz Klayman said something the other day when I was on Fox that I thought was great. She called

it the impact zone, right? And I just thought about, okay, Bitcoin's going to go up. What else is in the impact zone? What are the other things that are going to go up? Obviously, there are companies like Coinbase, the leading US exchange, that's a publicly traded thing that people are going and they're allocating to. They got a great brokerage business. They got a great custody business. They now have this thing called Base, which is a blockchain that they built. It's driving a lot of revenue, et cetera. A second bucket is all the miners. I personally like Hut8. Hut8 is an energy provider. I'm an advisor to the business. And the reason why I like it is because not only do they go and actually give energy to the Bitcoin miners,

but they also provide it for AI. So you get a little bit of smoothing around that customer base there's many other great miners as well there's marathon there's riot there's iron etc and so you know kind of that whole category i think will do quite well i think that there are what i'll call crypto tangential or crypto related companies so you can look at things like uh defy technologies which people have heard me talk quite a bit i'm a shareholder there why do i like that well they do crypto etps so if bitcoin goes up the crypto market goes up if the crypto market goes up and you're an ETP provider, you're just taking a fee. And so now you're taking a fee, an exchange traded product, like an ETF. And so if the ETP's AUM goes up, you used to take 1% on $100 million

worth of assets. Now if it doubles, you're taking 1% on $200 million of assets. And so anytime that you have an underlying asset that grows quite rapidly, those ETP providers end up being a pretty good business to be in. A fourth category that I think people haven't yet kind of really wrap their head around is what I'll call the Bitcoin treasury companies. Obviously, MicroStrategy is the most famous one, but you do have similar scientific in the US. You have things like MetaPlanet in Japan, et cetera. There's a number of these companies that are saying, wait a second, why don't I put Bitcoin on my balance sheet? And then I'm going to play capital markets game, whether it's equity or debt, I'm going to figure out how to get more

cash. And then I'm going to go buy more Bitcoin. And as Bitcoin goes up, it gives me the ability to get more cash to go buy more Bitcoin. And so the more that you can kind of play this game, the higher and higher these market caps are going because people are ultimately buying into the fact that they got Bitcoin on the balance sheet and that Bitcoin is appreciating. So that's kind of four different themes, if you will, and a couple of names that I'm watching or already investing in that I think could benefit the higher Bitcoin's price goes. Would you count Tesla as one of these Bitcoin treasury companies? Because they do hold, I think, more than a billion dollars of Bitcoin. Technically, they have Bitcoin in their treasury. They don't talk about it that way. I don't think

that they are actively doing what Michael Saylor is doing in terms of trying to get more Bitcoin. They kind of bought it and they've been holding it. It's obviously worked out for them quite well. My understanding is that Elon also bought Bitcoin on SpaceX's balance sheet as well. But again, I don't think that it is like, hey, we're going to be a Bitcoin treasury company. I think Tesla is saying we're going to build great cars. We're going to do self-driving. We're going to do the robotics, right? We're going to go build our company. And oh, by the way, we got a billion dollars of Bitcoin sitting on the balance sheet. And so, yes, it counts because it's technically in the category, but I think what people really are looking for in MetaPlanet or MicroStrategy

or whoever is this new kind of idea of Bitcoin yield. What they really want to see is I bought one share, that one share was the equivalent to a 10th of a Bitcoin. But now I hold that one share and because we've been able to acquire more Bitcoin, now I actually have 0.12 of a Bitcoin. Then I have 0.15, then I have 0.2, then I have 0.25, right? And so the amount of Bitcoin that is equivalent to my one share is growing. And that's kind of that yield, right? Almost like a stock buyback where I'm not actually getting the cash, but I am getting more and more economic value that's being returned to me the longer that I'm a shareholder. And I think that's why people are really buying a lot of those kind of Bitcoin treasury companies that become quite

popular. So I wonder if we'll see more and more companies similar to Tesla that aren't branding themselves as treasury companies, but they will start adding Bitcoin to their balance sheet. Do you expect to see that in the years ahead? If you have a lot of cash and you're sitting with it all in dollars, that's a problem. Especially if we return to a high inflation environment, you're losing purchasing power. If you've been sitting, let's just say that you're a company and you've had $100 million sitting on your balance sheet since 2020, you've lost at least 25% of the purchasing power of that $100 million.

Dollars are a risky asset. they're the only asset on your balance sheet that is guaranteed to lose value because unless we go into a deflationary period they're going to have some degree of inflation it could be high could be low but you're still going to get the inflation it is going to lose value and so that debasement of the currency if you're sitting with a lot of that currency you're on the wrong side of that equation and so i think that there are some not everybody but there are some companies that are going to say, well, if I have a hundred million dollars, maybe I should keep $80 million and I should take 20 million and buy this Bitcoin thing. By the way, there's companies in the past who've

bought gold. They buy real estate. You know, this isn't like a new concept to try to protect your cash. It's just that now there's a new instrument in Bitcoin that I think more and more people are starting to get comfortable with. They're realizing, wait a minute, if BlackRock's into this thing, maybe it's okay for me. I heard Larry Fink talk about how it's a flight to safety, right you're just slowly every day compounding trust compounding familiarity and ultimately that unlocks a little bit more capital each day each week each month each year and then all of a sudden we'll turn around and be like hey this thing is in everyone's portfolio everyone except warren buffett who has the biggest cash pile i think it's 300 billion something like that um warren

buffett has bitcoin in his portfolio he doesn't like to talk about it warren buffett is uh one of the largest shareholders of a neobank in Latin America, one of their most popular products is selling Bitcoin. And so again, it's like a subsidiary or like an investment, et cetera. But you can look and say that no matter how much you hate Bitcoin, the greatest investor in the world who's railed against it more than almost anybody else, it's still seeped into his portfolio. you cannot escape it when a product's time has come it will find you you don't have to go looking for it and that's what we're starting to see now is that bitcoin is seeping into all these areas all these nooks and cracks etc of portfolios of assets of balance sheets etc and so there are

plenty of people who don't even know what bitcoin is but they have some sort of indirect or underlying exposure because maybe what they did is they bought the fixed income fund at blackrock that put a little bit of Bitcoin in there. Or maybe their financial advisor said, you know what, across our entire portfolio for all our clients, we're going to buy 1%. And somebody just says, oh, all my money is my financial advisor.

I didn't buy Bitcoin. So that is kind of how the legacy financial system works is there's passive flows, there's advisors, there's all these other things that say, maybe not everyone is going to make self-directed investment decisions, but Bitcoin will still find you. I think one of those companies

that people are buying into, maybe unknowingly that it's a bitcoin play or tangential bitcoin play is nvidia because it's uh it's the chips used by a lot of these bitcoin miners um and and just some stats here nvidia's up nine percent since the election a week ago coinbase is up 70 micro strategies up 60 and tesla is up 35 so all of those are you could argue are bitcoin plays even if they're not directly uh crypto companies. There's this rumor going around as well about a nation state allocating to Bitcoin that would put it in the top several holders in the world. What are your thoughts on that? And how much of that do you think is tied to Trump's plan to be super pro-crypto?

If you were an economic actor and you were going to buy a lot of Bitcoin, you would not tell everyone you're going to buy the Bitcoin before you bought the Bitcoin. But the challenge for the challenger in a political election is you got to tell people what you're going to do so that they will elect you to go do it. And so Trump and his administration were very much in this kind of weird paradox. We don't want to tell people what we're going to do, but we got to tell people we're going to do so they put us there to do it. I would not be surprised if a nation state said, hold on a second. Donald Trump is going to go put a strategic reserve of Bitcoin together. let's front run him. Let's go do it ourselves. And so if you really think about, we're not

talking about very large amounts of money. If for example, 100,000 Bitcoin, it's billions, but it's not $300 billion. And so when you start to look at the numbers, you can say to yourself, okay, if there's a sovereign wealth fund out there to do $10 billion, it's not the craziest number. It's not like every single fund in the world can do that, but nations can absolutely do it. And then it brings the question of not only is what is the first country that's going to come out that we don't know about and say, we've bought a bunch of Bitcoin, whatever. I want to know who is the first country that's going to conduct a speculative attack on Bitcoin and a speculative attack. For those that don't know, I think Nick Carter came up with this a couple of years ago is

if you can print dollars or whatever your native currency is, and that's bad money, you know, it's going to lose value over time and you can buy Bitcoin, which is good money and isn't going to lose. It's going to appreciate over time. Why don't you go and print 50 or a hundred billion dollars and turn around and immediately buy Bitcoin with it? And you just created money out of thin air to then buy the Bitcoin. And you basically were able to take bad money, turn it into good money, hold the Bitcoin. That Bitcoin is going to continue to appreciate over time. And who cares what happens to the native currency because you now got the Bitcoin. Now, of course, there's a lot of complexity and nuance there because if you're

going to destroy a native currency or at least accelerate the devaluation, whoever's holding it's going to get hurt. But I promise you that somebody is going to conduct a speculative attack They got to have their own native currency and they probably have to be desperate. But somebody is going to go and say, we are going to print dollars or whatever our native currency is. And we don't care that we are devaluing our currency

because we're going to use this money to buy Bitcoin. If you've got a money printer, you should be able to buy more Bitcoin than anyone else in the world. And that's what governments have. Wouldn't that be the worst thing ever for that country's citizens? Like everyone that actually has and uses the cash?

it depends on how much you print right think about this the united states national debt just went up 850 billion dollars in 90 days so what if instead of spending it on whatever dumb things we probably spent it on we took the 850 billion dollars and we tried to buy as much of the 1.5 trillion dollar asset we could just sit there all day long and just keep buying and buying and buying and bitcoin's price will run of course it'll go up but the goal is how do we get as much bitcoin as possible Well, we just got $850 billion. It's not like the dollar is now worthless. And so maybe you say, okay, 850 is a crazy number.

Let's start with 10 billion. Let's start with 50 billion. These numbers are small compared to a $38 trillion national debt. It's peanuts. In a weird way, spending $50 billion to buy Bitcoin on the United States balance sheet is a rounding error when it comes to the $6 trillion we spend every year. So guess what? We don't need to save $2 trillion of the national debt to do this. Let, or I'm sorry, the national spending. Let's just go find $50 billion worth of spending.

Let's cut it out, take that money, go buy Bitcoin. You think that might be valuable in the future? probably so i i think you would have a lot of pushback from people saying once you buy bitcoin you can't actually do anything with it even if it retains and appreciates its value um how do you think how how do you square that with the problem of the national debt because if if you're saying or uh let's say bitcoin can help solve the debt problem but you can't do anything once you buy the Bitcoin. Help me figure that out. I don't think that it's a buy Bitcoin to solve the national debt problem. It can help on that front, but I don't think that that's the argument to go do it. And for the people who say that you can't do anything with it,

who cares what they say, right? If there's one thing that we've learned is that if you live your life worrying about what everyone else is saying, you're screwed. If you're a politician and you worry about what all your critics say, you're definitely screwed. And so what we basically did is we created a society where our politicians don't want to stand for anything. So instead what they do is they say, oh, I don't want to offend anybody. Oh, you're upset. Okay. Let me, you know, take a little edge off that idea. Oh, you're upset. Let me take that. And I see, you know, they're all just like this big blob and there's no original ideas. Nobody's willing to go out there and say, I believe X. I don't care what you believe. This is what I believe. I'm going to do

what I think is right. That is what leadership is. And so I think that you have to have somebody go in there and say, I don't care what the critics say. I'm doing this because I campaigned on it and the American people put me here with a mandate to fulfill my campaign promises. And that's enough. I mean, people forget the fact that a Republican won the popular vote. It's a landslide election. Whether the ideas are good or not, the American people sent that administration to go do what they said they were going to do. And so you pretty much have the ability to go do it and say, the American people told me to go do this. I promised them I would do it. They sent me here in a landslide. I'm going to do what I said. And let's see what

happens. But let's say that you buy $50 billion, which by the way, people are talking about not buying that much, but if you even bought 50 billion and you just hold it, a lot of people don't understand how balance sheets work, right? You got debt and then you got your assets and those things, right now our debt is real high, but we have supposedly $500 trillion on our balance sheet. We could pay off the debt if we really worked at it. It would require us to do things that people are unwilling to do though. So if you look at it from that perspective, you start to say, okay, maybe actually buying the Bitcoin is not so much trying to pay off the debt. And it's more of understanding the debt is not going to get paid off. We're going to inflate away this currency

and we'll eventually deal with that debt jubilee or whatever later. But we got a plan B. Plan B is this Bitcoin thing. And we're going to hold as much of it as we possibly can because whoever's got the gold, they make the rules. Well, in this case, whoever got the Bitcoin, they're going to make the rules. And nation states right now, the scoreboard's real flat. A lot of zeros up there. but once nation states start to come out and say i bought a lot that scoreboard is going to light up and people are going to all be in this race to accumulate more the country of butan which most people can't spell and don't know where it is they have one billion dollars of bitcoin you're telling me that america the number one nation in the world the greatest economy ever constructed we can't

figure out how to own 50 times more Bitcoin than Bhutan, give me a break. If we have people in positions of leadership that can't figure out how to get 50 times more of an asset than the country of Bhutan, no disrespect to Bhutan, we need new people in those seats. That is ultimately where I think you hear Bitcoin are saying, hey, guys, Bhutan's got a billion. What are we doing here? right i think if i remember correctly el salvador is up a billion i think they're up a hundred million okay a hundred million but it's they're up a lot uh compared to their initial investment and i wanted to ask you about that because we have this sort of example of el salvador they did put a lot of money into bitcoin and now they have this big number 100 million dollars saying

we're up but those are unrealized gains what do you if you're an economy what do you do with those unrealized gains? Well, all assets that sit inside of the central bank reserves usually are unrealized gains, right? And so whether it's gold or whatever, the first thing is they can sell it. It's a very liquid market. They can go sell tomorrow, right? The second thing is they don't want to sell it. The third thing is they're kicking themselves because they didn't buy more of it, right? And then the fourth thing, and probably the most interesting thing to me is as that pile grows, they're going to have a lot of optionality. If they have a lot of optionality, maybe they don't need to deal with the imf maybe they don't need to deal with name your organization

globally maybe they can just say listen el salvador is this beautiful place we're just going chill we don't need you guys we got bitcoin i'm not saying that that's what's going to happen but it gives you optionality and i think that optionality is very very powerful in a world where historically those countries that they lost their native currency so they're a dollarized nation They are dependent on money lines and credit and things like that from the IMF and others. Imagine the IMF shows up to your country and says, oh, you want money from us? We'll give you the money. But we got new rules we're going to implement.

If you're a Salvadorian, it's our country. But we're in a position where we're desperate. We need the money. So we got to agree to your terms. but Bitcoin allows you to say, we're making our rules now. It's our country. And I think that's why people sent Donald Trump back to the White House. And I think that's why people are so excited about Bitcoin getting put on the balance sheet is America right now, fortunately, doesn't have anyone showing up saying, let me extend you this line of credit. But America does have a lot

of people who are showing up saying, hey, you know what? Send me money. Hey, will you send me weapons hey will you send me people will you send me whatever the thing is and so bitcoin i think will help us say look you know what let's take care of at home first so i i think with these nation states and even uh wall street's adoption of bitcoin it is a it's very much a vindication and sort of a legitimizing thing for the crypto industry but to me it is a bit contradictory because Bitcoin was built as a anti-institutional asset, but now it's becoming, it's like the thing it meant to disrupt early on.

How do you square that? Wall Street is not accepting Bitcoin. Bitcoin is accepting the Wall Streeters, right? It's kind of like if you got your own club, Bitcoin's policy for their country club, everyone's welcome. But Wall Street doesn't control it. Wall Street doesn't own it.

Wall Street can't change it. So Bitcoin is just saying, hey, we're here for everybody. I don't care if you're a priest or a banker. I don't care if you're a man or a woman. I don't care what your wealth status is, your education, your geography, your language, any of that. We're for everybody. It is the ultimate asset in terms of meritocracy. And so if you can show up, you got an internet connection, you got value that you can exchange, you get Bitcoin.

and Bitcoin is accepting of everybody. And so the Bitcoiners are accepting the bankers. The bankers aren't accepting Bitcoin, which is kind of a nuanced thing. Because if you notice, what are the bankers saying to people? Bankers are going to their clients and say, give me cash and I'll go buy Bitcoin.

But the bankers don't have any Bitcoin. Where do they get the Bitcoin from? They don't create Bitcoin. They're just going and buying Bitcoin like everybody else. They just put in a nice shiny wrapper. It's a good wrapper because we get a lot more money into the system. But ultimately, it's just Bitcoin allowing the bankers to participate versus the bankers saying, oh, we're high and mighty. And like now we're kings of Bitcoin.

And I think that that difference is really important. Whereas if you think about, for example, gold and gold mining, the bankers don't control gold. They don't make gold. but they finance a lot of the gold uh uh producers the bankers finance a lot of the bitcoin miners right so there's a lot of parallels here but it is still outside the system gold's outside the system bitcoin's outside the system it's just now people are trying to get their hands on the asset because they realize the value of it i think that makes sense and um how do you see these bitcoin etfs playing into this whole equation because that is sort of the gateway

way for mainstream adoption? I just think that we now have entered a world where Wall Street's got it in terms of they're going to put this thing on autopilot in terms of the ETFs. You're going to see a lot of financial advisors turn on 1%. Just blanket across all their portfolios, everyone puts 1% in. You're going to see a lot of Wall Street firms say, we don't have any Bitcoin exposure by X percent, by Y number of shares of the ETF. You're going to see a lot of people start to say, wait a second, is this a debasement hedge? Is this an inflation hedge? Is this a flight to safety? Is this some other asset that I have some thought about? Buy it. And now they can. But a lot of people who traffic in the business of other people's money historically couldn't do

that because their fund documents didn't let them go set up a Coinbase account and buy Bitcoin directly, but their fund documents let them buy public securities of which the ETF is. And so that is really the kind of innovation there is we took the same asset, we put it in this wrapper, that wrapper is well accepted by the largest pools of capital in the world, and now they're able to buy. And that will unlock a lot of capital and that capital to a finite asset will push the price higher. So if you were one of these portfolio or fund managers and you had a 30-year time horizon, how much percentage would you allocate to Bitcoin? More. More.

I mean, if you go back and you look at what I did originally, I put a lot, much more than 50%. Now, I was very young. I didn't have nearly as much money. And so I had a very high risk tolerance. I had done the work and done my own research, had a lot of confidence. And I was willing to make a bet that if it didn't go well, I still had time, I had skills. I was in a position in my life where I had very low monthly expenses.

Like everything lined up to be able to take a big bet. But the average person can't do that. I couldn't do it now. I'm married, I got kids, I got expenses, right? Like I'm in a whole different position in my life. And so from a portfolio manager standpoint, it ain't gonna be 1%, but it's also not going to be over 50.

But there's some number for each portfolio manager. And if they look at it as just simply a replacement for gold, they are going to do like 1%. If they look at it as a new theme, if you were to allocate to the stock market, you have 60% of your assets in stocks. Well, maybe you should put 10% in Bitcoin. Who knows, right?

Each individual portfolio manager is going to look at it. But this whole idea of like, oh, just get off zero, put 1%. I was saying that in 2018. The reason why I was saying that in 2018 was because we needed you to get a toe dip. Just get a little bit. Come on. We're in the big boy leagues now, right? 1% is kind of like, I don't really believe in it, but I'm just going to do it so I don't get fired for not having it.

But he'd done the work. Maybe it's closer to three, four, five, six, 7%. I don't know. Each portfolio is different. Okay. On that note, Palm, thank you for having me. Thanks for doing this. What's up, guys? I hope you're enjoying this episode, but I got a quick message for you.

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