The Pomp Podcast - #1490 David Tse | How To Safely Get Yield On Your Bitcoin

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

David Tse is the Co-Founder of Babylon Protocol. In this conversation he explains two use cases for bitcoin, why he is trying to build a third use case, staking in the bitcoin network, and what David thinks the future looks like. =======================This episode is brought to you by Bitdeer (NASDAQ: BTDR), a global leader in Bitcoin mining and high-performance computing for AI. Led by a seasoned management team, Bitdeer is driving innovation with its proprietary SEALMINER ASICs for Bitcoin mining and has a massive 2.5 GW power portfolio across three continents. Learn more about Bitdeer at www.bitdeer.com=======================Meanwhile is the world’s first licensed and regulated life insurance company built for the Bitcoin economy. Protect your loved ones with sound money built to manage life’s uncertainty and a broken financial system. Their BTC-denominated Whole Life Insurance policies allow HODLers to pass more BTC on to their loved ones and a tax-advantaged way to access BTC for liquidity during their lifetime. Visit their website at https://meanwhile.bm/ to join the waitlist for a policy and to learn more.=======================Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/=======================View 10k+ open startup jobs:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. What's going on, guys? Today, we've got a great episode with David Say. He is the co-founder of Babylon Protocol. In this conversation, he explains the two native

use cases for Bitcoin, why he's trying to build a third native use case. He explains why, given all of his academic background and so much research history, he chose to focus on Bitcoin over every other technology that he could right now. And then we get into staking and why using a Bitcoin secured network is a new way to think about this and how driving self-custodial staking may actually change the way people think about finance and think about Bitcoin. This conversation is fascinating. There's a lot of R&D going on here.

There's a lot of vision for what it could be in the future. And then there's a lot of conversation about what are the big questions? What are the risks? And how could this team possibly mitigate it? I hope that you learned something if you listen to the full conversation that I just had with David Say.

Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

Today's episode is brought to you by NASDAQ-listed Bitdeer. They trade under the stock ticker BTDR. They're led by a seasoned management team. Bitdeer is a global leader in Bitcoin mining and high-performance computing for artificial intelligence, and they are backed by technological innovation and a massive 2.5 gigawatt global power portfolio. Recently, Bitdeer launched its own Bitcoin mining ASICs named the Seal Miner to target what Wall Street analysts project to be a multi-billion dollar annual market. Their proprietary Seal Miner ASICs are redefining efficiency and performance, and they are backed

by the industry's most advanced chip roadmap, with two more groundbreaking models set to launch in 2025. To learn more about Bitdeer's cutting edge technology and business, visit their website at bitdeer.com. That's B-I-T-D-E-E-R.com. Go check out Bitdeer today. Today's episode is brought to you by Meanwhile. Meanwhile is the world's first licensed and regulated life insurance company built for the Bitcoin economy. Operating on the Bitcoin standard, they do everything in Bitcoin. You pay in Bitcoin. They pay claims to your family in Bitcoin. You take out policy loans entirely in Bitcoin when you need liquidity. Meanwhile, Bitcoin life insurance has redefined what it means to hodl. Protect your family from life's uncertainty and a broken financial system.

Build intergenerational Bitcoin wealth while the cost of living skyrockets in dollar terms. Get all the tax and legal benefits of life insurance now in Bitcoin. They are actively binding policies today. Whether you are a long-term Bitcoiner or are just considering it for the first time, a Bitcoin whole life policy could make sense for your wealth plan. Visit their website, meanwhile.bm, to join the waitlist and to learn more about the world's first Bitcoin life insurer. Again, that's meanwhile.bm. Go check them out today.

All right, David, I thought a great place to start this conversation is Bitcoin is something that you've worked on, but you've also worked on some really, really important things. You've got this storied career, you're a Stanford professor, you've got a background in genomics, in a ton of different technologies. And when you look at this, why not work on AI? Why not work on machine learning? Why not work on so many of these other technologies that are out there? Why choose to specifically focus on Bitcoin?

Yeah, so I started my career working on wireless communication. That is a technology that went from 1 billion cell phones to 10 billion cell phones within the span of 20 years. And I was participating in that at the ground level. So what I see with blockchain is a new generation of infrastructure that enables people not only to communicate, which is what cell phones do for us, but also to decentralize and distribute it and to make interaction permissionless. And that is really the next frontier. And I really want to participate in this at the base level, basement level, where this all got started. That's why I chose this topic in the past six, seven years. That's what I've been working on.

Got it. And so when you look at Bitcoin today, really, there are kind of two native use cases. And you guys are creating what you call a third native use case. Talk about what you think the two native use cases are and then why you think there's third one is so important. Yeah. So Satoshi Nakamoto invented Bitcoin to solve one problem, which is a payment system, a decentralized payment system under no control of government or any organization. So the first use case of Bitcoin is a payment system. That's the first use cases.

The second use cases is people basically figure out, hey, you know what? Bitcoin also has value, so you can store value. So both these use cases are very native to Bitcoin because it does not involve any third party to participate. You only have to trust yourself and the network. other than those two use cases there are no other use cases until we came up with bitcoin staking and staking is primarily a trustless activity happening on other chains proof of stake chains for example in ethereum when you stake a eth32 eth to secure the network you don't trust those 32 eth to vitalik you don't give the 32 eth to vitalik and let him take care of it it's a

trustless through the protocol this is much more difficult to do on bitcoin because bitcoin does have a smart contract but we find a technology to enable to do this in an equally trustless way as in ethereum and other proof-of-stake blockchains now one of the things that you've said before is like why trust humans when you can trust code and do you think that the rise of ai agents this idea of you know trusting the bitcoin code this is all part of a big trend in society where trust in institutions, trust in other humans is actually decreasing. And the trust in code is what has been increasing. Yeah, that is, in some sense, the vision of Nakamoto. And we

are here, just to fulfill that vision and push it further and further. When we explain a little bit more in terms of what you mean, that is Satoshi Nakamoto vision. So Satoshi Nakamoto basically invented a payment system, whereby there is no central authority, right? So if we look at a payment system right now that we use, we always trust some central intermediary like a bank or something else

or PayPal or whatever payment system is created by a company that is a central organization that you are trusting your money on to. Satoshi Nakamoto invented Bitcoin precisely to overcome this problem of trusting humans, trusting organizations more importantly you know organizations, humans can be trusted at some point in time but in the future it may not be trustworthy, you can never trust someone at all times and so Satoshi Nakamoto's

vision is to remove that trust and in some sense here we are just enlarging the class of applications beyond payment for which this trustlessness is still possible you've previously said that uh bitcoin was the original meme coin can you explain that did i say that yeah you were talking about richard dawkins and how uh he was actually talking about meme coins and and uh carrying you know units of culture yeah yes so that's right so So Bitcoin, right, if you think about it, has multiple facets. It's a technology. It's the blockchain technology.

It's the first protocol that invents this new technology, number one. Number two is an application, as I mentioned, a payment system. But third, it's also a new idea of decentralizing, of removing or reducing trust on humans and organizations. So in some sense, Bitcoin is a meme coin because Bitcoin is a symbol for this new idea, new movement. So it is a meme coin. And when you think of what you guys are doing, you are trying to introduce staking. Obviously, there's a lot of people who say, hey, if I hold Bitcoin, it has no cash flow.

I don't like Bitcoin. Or if I hold Bitcoin, I can't do anything with it other than hold it or spend it. Where did you get this idea for staking and kind of yield generation, but done in a self-custodial way, right? Which I think is kind of a key part here is still staying true to the kind of components of Bitcoin, but introducing staking. Yeah. So how did we come to this idea, right? So first we studied staking, okay? This is a new thing that emerged in Web3 in the past five or six years.

we realized that staking relies on two things okay one capital lots of capital the more the capital the more the security this is a nature of proof of stake replace capital replace work by capital okay that's number one number two is locking that is to provide security you have to lock the capital okay now then we realize okay what's the biggest form of capital in web3 Bitcoin. What is the capital that people hold and don't do anything with anyway? Bitcoin. So therefore, Bitcoin is actually the perfect asset for providing security because people are holding it anyway. They're not doing anything with it. So might as well just lock it and provide security. And right now, how does this work in terms of it is secured by Bitcoin's network?

Describe a little bit kind of the relationship between the staking and the actual Bitcoin security of the network yeah so you can think of bitcoin as like an engine which has input energy miners do work and the output is the asset bitcoin okay so a lot of energy has gone in to generate this asset which is very secure okay now right now this asset is only people hold it okay and what we're saying is that hey why don't we create a new use value for this asset to provide security to other blockchains. So you can think of the sequence. First, miners do the work, create this asset very secure.

We use this asset to further create security for other blockchains. So that's sort of the sequence of logical flow. And right now, talk a little bit in terms of who are the types of people who are doing this? Is this individuals? Is it companies? Is it large financial institutions? Yeah, so we're still in the early stages of the protocol. we just launched the mainnet back in august okay and we launched it in phases so in the first phase

we asked bitcoin holders to say hey this is a new use case for bitcoin lock your bitcoin so this is the first so this we call supply bootstrapping okay so first we bootstrap the supply which is the bitcoin so right now there are 130 000 distinct bitcoin addresses that already stick on our main net 130 000 total about 6 billion tbl between 5.5 to 6 billion depending on the date of tbl so this is the amount of bitcoin state so this shows and who are these people we have no idea this is a decentralized network people stake onto the bitcoin network we don't track who these people are however by looking at the amounts by looking at the amounts you will see that there are some very small amount or zero five bitcoin many many of them but then there are also

a few very large amount the largest one is 5 000 because actually that's our maximum value so you can see that there are whales and there are retails uh so right now i would say those are the two classes institutions have not come in in a big way yet i would say i would say you know institutions are typically more conservative they went to wait until the protocol is more ready also at this point um so this is where we are right now now in the second phase of the launch we'll launch a first blockchain, a first blockchain that will receive this Bitcoin security, that will receive this Bitcoin staking security. So that's the second phase. We plan to do that in the next few months. And once that happens, then there will be natural staking

reward from these chains, from these blockchains that we're launching to provide a yield or reward to these bitcoin holders who are sticking got it and so when you think about uh kind of proof of work of bitcoin that seems to be um one world that exists that seems to be something that obviously has made bitcoin incredibly valuable there's this whole other world of proof of stake but now it looks like you guys are trying to bring these two worlds together exactly so the two worlds are very interesting right because in the beginning there was only one world bitcoin proof-of-work. Then, about six or seven years ago, proof-of-stake networks started emerging,

culminating in the migration of Ethereum from proof-of-work to proof-of-stake two years ago. Now, proof-of-stake, one of the goals is to replace proof-of-work. Well, so far, Bitcoin has not been replaced. In fact, Bitcoin is only getting bigger and bigger. So right now, we have a situation where we kind of have a stalemate. We have Bitcoin, but we have proof-of-stake networks, and both are a very significant part of the Web3.

Bitcoin is about 50%. Proof-of-stake is at least 30%, 30%, 40%. So what we're doing is, hey, these two worlds are stalemate. They coexist anyway, so let's put them together in the way that we are proposing. And when somebody does this, what do you think the big risks are? Obviously, there's a lot of people who say, hey, even if it's self-custodial, are there risks of me

putting my Bitcoin somewhere? Talk about how you think about what those risks are. And then also, what are you doing to mitigate them? Yeah. So, you know, there's a very interesting development in proof of stake. Okay. Proof of stake, before I go to the Bitcoin, let's say a few words about sort of the history of proof of stake. Proof of stake is meant to be a new security model to secure blockchain, okay, to replace proof of work, as I mentioned. However, it turns out that proof of stake has a second benefit, in some sense, to be a risk minimizing way for people to get reward in DeFi. So staking became a super important activity in DeFi. It's like the cornerstone of DeFi. In fact, many DeFi applications are built on top of the

staking layer. Okay. So therefore, Bitcoin has never been able to enjoy this staking risk minimizing use case. So in some sense, we're bringing that to Bitcoin. Before, right, you need to get some value from Bitcoin, then you may have to lend it out to some third party, or you have to bridge the Bitcoin to somewhere else. And all these are involving much more risk than staking. And so there's a fundamental reason why staking becomes a cornerstone of DeFi. It's because of the risk-minimizing, trustless nature of staking. And so when you're doing that, you're obviously minimizing risk compared to a third party. But how do you look at the actual risks of Babylon and some of the stuff that you guys are building? Are there things that you think about in terms of, hey, these are the things we've got to do to mitigate this?

So this is what we think are the most important parts for us to provide that security to our users? Yes, of course. the number one thing for us right is that the bitcoin that people secure the network using our protocol not using our custodial using our protocol is safe right so we need to make sure that the protocol is secure the protocol implementation is correct and so we've gone through at this point four five six seven audits to make sure that all angles are covered in terms the security protocol um so that's number one thing uh yeah so that's essentially the only one thing actually i just say and then when somebody go ahead and stakes you know i know

some of these other platforms when you're staking you're locked up for certain periods of time some of them are short some of them are long how do you think about like an illiquidity component of the staking that you're trying to build here so from day one our protocol does not lock up people's money forever okay it only locks up the money in the following sense it's saying that you can always leave the protocol you can always leave the protocol which is called unbonding the only requirement we ask of you is you wait seven days and the seven days is programmatic it's programmed in the bitcoin scripting language in in the scripting staking contract it's not something we choose and once seven days over then the money will automatically be unbonded and given

back to you. The seven days is needed for providing appropriate security to the proof of stake chain. Proof of stake chain cannot allow people to unbond immediately. No proof of stake chain allows unbonding immediately. Seven days is in some sense shorter than most proof of stake chain. And this is because we have Bitcoin security. Got it. And so is this something where it's seven days from when I first put my Bitcoin in? Or is this seven days from when I say, hey, you know, I'm going to to take it out. You take your Bitcoin for, say, three months. After three months, you say, hey, I want to use my Bitcoin for something else.

You issue an unbonding request. Seven days later, you get a Bitcoin. Got it. So it's almost like when you stake, you can leave it for as long as you want. And then you initiate the the unbonding request. Yes, we have a one little twist to what you said is that we have a duration, a lower overall duration of 15 months okay so in case you forgot to unbond after 15 months the money will the stake will essentially effectively be unbond by default the um the reward the the

yield that somebody is getting here what does that look like i'm sure that it kind of fluctuates from time to time but but what does that look like since you launched yeah so we are in the main net phase one okay so phase one does not get reward from proof of stake chains yet because we haven't launched any proof of stake chain so right now we are the protocol is giving points giving points to the stakers at this point okay now when we launch one chain and then we launch many other chains then these chains will provide reward to the stakers okay now what does the reward look like is very hard to say because it depends on two things. One is how does the reward come from? And two is how

many people are staking. If there's a huge number of people staking, then the reward in terms of percentage is smaller. So we would expect that we will come to an equilibrium which gives a reward rate, okay, which is reasonable to stakers. Now, I would like to emphasize that we should not think of this reward where it's like 10%, 20% type numbers, okay? These are not the numbers that we are shooting for.

We're talking about low single-digit reward. That would be my guess. We don't have any definitive numbers yet because we haven't launched a chain. But think of this as kind of a very risk-minimizing way of earning reward. And people are already building protocols on top of the staking layer, just like Ethereum.

people built like Lido and everything on top of it to generate more yield for a little bit more risk-taking activities. So you can think of Babylon as the sticking layer, the lowest risk minimizing way of getting return. Yeah, that makes sense. And really, I guess, you know, you get paid a return for the risk that you take. And so if it's low risk, then you should expect to get a low return. And obviously things that go up, you know, thousands of percent are higher risk. And, you know,

there's people who are looking for that, but they'll find that somewhere else. Yeah. And you know, most people hold Bitcoin because they're hoping that Bitcoin will go up, up and up and up. So I think the return is kind of like, in some sense for these people hold a Bitcoin for value. It's a nice thing on the kick. that uh that makes sense um what's been the biggest surprise since you guys have been building this right you know that there's a lot of people in bitcoin that are hardcore bitcoiners that say hey you know we don't need anything that needs to be built on top of bitcoin but obviously there's a lot of people who also say well we should try to make bitcoin as useful as possible and they're trying to build you know as much kind of utility and applications and staking etc so what's been kind of the reaction there and what's your takeaways yeah so you know i think the definitely

in the past two years. This idea that Bitcoin should be just left unused has really shifted to many different teams, many different projects, thinking about creating new use cases for Bitcoin. So I think our philosophy towards this is following. We are not saying, oh, Bitcoin, the core protocol should be changed, okay?

We're not saying we should do a soft fork to change it to make all these use cases possible when it was impossible before. We're not saying that. We're saying we take Bitcoin as it is and we create new use cases for Bitcoin. And for people who want to engage in these new use cases, they can use it.

For people who are not interested in these use cases, they don't need to participate. We have 2 trillion Bitcoin there. We don't need every single Bitcoiners and there will not be every single Bitcoiners participating in Bitcoin staking. And then in terms of the people who are building this, what's the backgrounds?

Like you have a very kind of storied background. I mentioned that you studied genomics, you studied engineering, you studied blockchains, machine learning, et cetera. What are some of your colleagues? What is their background? Yeah, so we have a pretty diverse team. We have, so our core expertise of the project is in consensus protocols, because what we're doing is we're providing security through consensus protocol.

So we have a lot of experts in consensus protocol in our team. We have engineering, a very strong engineering team, very strong research team. But we also have quite a diverse and strong BD team, which helps us to educate people about this super new concept of Bitcoin staking. So that team involves people. So our chief strategy officer, for example, was a co-founder of a very old project called Zilliqa. I don't know if you've heard of Zilliqa, but he was a co-founder of Zilliqa, one of the earliest scaling project, Bitcoin blockchain scaling project. And we have people who have many years of experience in Figment, for example, which is our head of BD. So we have a very, I think, very strong team with deep, deep experience in staking the industry.

You have called this a Bitcoin secured network. Talk a little bit about your vision for what other types of Bitcoin secured networks might show up. Should we expect all of the, you know, kind of R&D that's happening in DeFi and altcoins to kind of migrate over to Bitcoin and everything becomes a Bitcoin secured network? Or do you think that there is kind of different chains and ecosystems for different applications? Yeah, you know, like the one thing about Bitcoin, Bitcoin is like a universal resource for the entire Web3.

So you have many, many different ecosystems, right? You have Solana, you have Soy, you have Ethereum. But no one, no single currency, no single cryptocurrency has this universal value, universal image of Bitcoin. And so we believe, and in fact, we've seen already a lot of evidence that many, many blockchains from many different ecosystems actually interested in participating in this network to become a Bitcoin secure network. Now, I should like to emphasize that the fact that you become a Bitcoin security network doesn't mean you sold your soul to Bitcoin and you lose whatever you're doing. No, because our way of designing this Bitcoin security network is that you can keep your, for example, native asset and use that native asset to provide security. But you're adding on top of that, in a modular fashion, a Bitcoin security. And so in some sense, this Bitcoin security provides sort of a connection of this network to Bitcoin as a whole.

And in fact, we saw we have a lot of Bitcoin security network, which are interested in. In addition to getting security, they want to also get liquidity from Bitcoin. And we have protocols that build on top of Bitcoin staking, liquid staking protocols, basically, that provide such liquidity. So we're seeing both a security connection and an economic connection through our protocol. And when you think about Bitcoin kind of moving forward, obviously, there's been talk of a strategic Bitcoin reserve. When I first got into Bitcoin, I thought that Bitcoin and the dollar were somewhat competitive with each other, but it seems like stable coins have really extended the dollar dominance. How do you look at Bitcoin and the dollar in that relationship? And then maybe the Bitcoin within kind of the US economy and kind of government apparatus right now? Yeah. So this question, I guess, is not that connected to what we're doing. It's a broader question on Bitcoin. Yeah, it's interesting, right? Because Bitcoin was invented by Nakamoto as sort of a totally different way of creating a currency, creating a payment system. And in some sense, it's a response to the financial crisis of 2008. Now there is a strong clamor for connecting Bitcoin to institutions, to the government, through the strategic reserve.

So I don't know. In fact, if I were Nakamoto waking up today, seeing this development, I think he or she would find it kind of a little bit funny. perplexing perplexing maybe right perplexing perplexing situation right i mean so i don't know uh part of me say okay good connection to institution brings in more capital from a broader set of people that's good but part of me also says that hey we should keep some distinct identity to bitcoin that makes sense when you look at um the current ecosystem there's a bunch of people who building you know nfts etc on top of bitcoin um how much of bitcoin's future success do you think is dependent on people building on top of bitcoin versus being able to use those first two native

use cases of the payment system in the store of value yeah that's a super um interesting question so um i can't really speak for other people who are building on bitcoin right but in our case we are basically saying that hey bitcoin has a lot of value beyond the two use cases and we want to build disturbed use cases for the benefit of the broader web3 system so our point of view is really more of starting with bitcoin and creating more value to benefit the rest of the web3 ecosystem now a good thing is that uh this will only work your Bitcoiners also provide, also get some benefit. So in our system, Bitcoiners get reward.

Now, am I going to say that, oh, without this kind of Bitcoin state king, Bitcoin would die? And I don't think I would like to say that. I think is at this moment, at this moment, I would say is a created new use cases for Bitcoin, but I don't think is kind of fundamental to Bitcoin's existence at this point. And when you think about the future of, let's say, Babylon, what does success look like?

Is it just as much Bitcoin as possible, or could there be too much Bitcoin that is actually staked and you think that there's kind of a diminishing return maybe? Yeah, so as a protocol, right? What's the goal? What's the role of a protocol? The role of the protocol in my mind, decentralized protocol is to create a marketplace, is to create a marketplace where participants can

participate easily, okay? So therefore, I don't think our goal is to say, oh, we want one trillion Bitcoin, or we want 500 billion Bitcoin staked on a protocol. No. I think our goal is to allow participants on two sides, Bitcoin secure networks on the one side, Bitcoin is the only site to participate in this protocol. The market dynamics will generate an equilibrium in terms of how many Bitcoin stakers or how much Bitcoin staked and how many networks will participate.

If there are lots of networks that want to participate, then there will be a lot of Bitcoiners that want to participate as well. So we let the market decide. That makes complete sense. And where can we send someone if they want to find out more about what you guys are building

or maybe they want to test out the product? Yeah, you can go to the website, diabolonlabs.io. That's the website. for the project and from the website you can go to the staking interface and right now the cap is closed we'll reopen the cap when phase 2 of the launch starts which is launching the first

BSN, Bitcoin Secured Network, which is called Babylon Genesis, that's the name of the network that we will launch, the first Bitcoin Secured Network, Babylon Genesis Amazing. Well, I love to hear what you guys are building. And it makes a ton of sense to use Bitcoin as kind of a security layer. It is the most secure computing network in the world. And so being able to build stuff on top and then tie it in, I think, is something that a lot of people are trying to figure out.

And it seems like you guys are spending a lot of time and energy on this. So it's very cool to see. And I look forward to hearing about future progress. And we'll definitely do this again in the future as you guys make kind of further down your plan. Yeah. Love to talk to you again, Anthony. Thanks so much for having me here. Thanks, David.