The Pomp Podcast - 337: Kingdom Trust CEO Ryan Radloff On Advancing Bitcoin Adoption

Episode Date: July 16, 2020

Ryan Radloff is the CEO of Kingdom Trust, an independent qualified custodian focused on leveraging technology to provide customized and innovative custody solutions for clients including alternative asset investments. He previously was the co-founder and CEO of CoinShares, which led the charge for crypto adoption in Europe. In this conversation, we discuss Ryan's background, why he started Coinshares and how they grew, the importance of leveraging Kingdom Trust's Choice product to get Bitcoin into retirement accounts, and why Bitcoin provides the ability for savers to financially outperform investors. =============================== LVL is a mobile banking app that provides an integrated Bitcoin and traditional bank account experience for a flat $9 monthly fee. They have no trading commission like Coinbase and no hidden spread like Robinhood. Your cash is held in a private, FDIC-insured checking account and you can buy and sell Bitcoin as many times as you want and only pay the monthly $9 flat fee. Legendary Bitcoiners Jimmy Song and Willy Woo are already advisors and we liked it so much that we invested in the company. This is a no brainer and it will save you an incredible amount of money, so go sign up at lvl.co/pomp or use promo code "pomp".  =============================== The Trends premium weekly report helps you understand market trends poised to skyrocket and how you can pounce. Join the private network of 5k+ builders, founders, and investors spotting tomorrow’s trends. Expand your network, and discover the next big business idea before it explodes: https://trends.co/pomp/ =============================== Pomp writes a daily letter to over 50,000 investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy to understand language, while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://www.pompletter.com

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Let's kick this thing off. Ryan Radloff is the CEO of Kingdom Trust, an independent qualified custodian focused on leveraging technology to provide customized and innovative custody solutions for clients, including alternative asset investments. He previously was the co-founder and CEO of CoinShares, which led the charge for crypto adoption in Europe. In this conversation, we discuss Ryan's background, why he started CoinShares and how they grew, the importance of leveraging Kingdom Trust's Choice product to get Bitcoin into retirement accounts, and

why Bitcoin provides the ability for savers to financially outperform investors. I really enjoyed this conversation with Ryan, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into the episode though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. The first is Level, spelled LVL. They're a mobile banking app that provides an integrated Bitcoin and traditional bank account experience for a flat $9 monthly fee. They've got no trading commissions like a Coinbase, and they have no hidden spread like Robinhood. Your cash is held in a private FDIC-insured checking account, and you can buy and sell Bitcoin as many times as you want and only pay the monthly $9 flat fee. That's right, $9 flat fee, and you can do as much trading as you want.

So legendary Bitcoiners Jimmy Song and Willie Wu are already advisors, and we liked it so much that we invested in the company. This is a no-brainer, and it will save you an incredible amount of money. So go sign up at lvl.co slash pump. Again, lvl.co, and you can use the code PUMP. That'll get you a $9 monthly flat fee that has both cash and Bitcoin, and you can trade as much as you want with no other fees. Go check it out.

The second sponsor is Trends by The Hustle. They're a premium weekly report that helps you understand market trends, poise the skyrocket, and how you can pounce. They've got a private network of over 5,000 builders, founders, and investors spotting tomorrow's trends. I'm really enjoying the community and I highly suggest going and checking them out.

So you can expand your network and discover the next big business idea before it explodes. Go to trends.co slash pump. Trends.co slash pump. Go check them out. And don't forget that I write a daily letter to over 50,000 investors about business technology and finance. I break down complex topics into easy to understand language while sharing my personal opinion on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at pompletter.com.

Again, pompletter.com. All right, let's get into this episode with Ryan. I hope you guys enjoy this one. Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. All right, guys. Bang, bang. Got Ryan here. Super excited to do this. Thanks so much for doing it, man. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. Look forward to it. We are recording this on a very big day

for you guys at kingdom trust but before we talk about all the the fun and exciting stuff let's uh just cover your background for people that don't know you kind of where'd you grow up what'd you do before you ever discovered bitcoin or crypto yeah yeah i so i grew up i'm a southern boy grew up in the grew up in the south um my dad dad's a football player he played for the falcons and then retired down in hilton head um so i i was a was a football player played against your old old school cardinal Givens, uh, North Carolina. And, um, uh, but went to, uh, studied at Duke. And then when I was at Duke really got shaped by, you know, by the, you know, like the academic world. And I remember getting a phone call from, uh, my parents about halfway through when I was at Duke and I was pre

law at the time. And I got a call from them back in 2000, in the 2007, early 2008, that they lost everything. And I remember I was sitting there in school. I only cared about football and girls and whatever you whatever you care about when you're when you're that age and i was like what do you mean they lost you lost everything like what are you talking about i grew up you know fairly comfortable ex-nfl player etc and they're like yeah everything's gone it's like evaporated and i was like surely this is not possible so i ended up like looking into it actually pivoted my whole life from going pre-law to studying economics and specifically like macroeconomics and you know from there became like really disenfranchised with this whole uh i figured out actually how

money worked when I was there. So I got really disenfranchised with the way the legacy financial system works, actually what economics meant. And at that point, when I graduated, it was 2009. And there was nobody hiring back then, unless you were either a bank, you're going into wall school or med school. That was it. So went and worked in the financial markets before Bitcoin. And I remember how much I just hated it. And, you know, I'm kind of in the middle of this, like a lot of us were at that time like this period of really deep frustration with what's going on the legacy system and then bam in 2011 and beginning of 2012 someone sent me this white paper and you know so the story goes so i grew up as a football southern football player you know american i love america

um and you know i uh and now you know full-time bitcoiner yeah it's so interesting to hear kind of your take on the 2008-2009 crisis. You are one year ahead of me in school. And I always say that there's probably like a five-year kind of band or demographic of kids who were in college or kind of right after or right before. When that happened, we didn't have enough financial assets personally to really be affected. We saw parents, friends' parents, like we saw the kind of economic carnage And it gave us a front row seat without actually kind of getting hurt personally. And I think it really drove a lot of people to say, like, what the hell is this? What is going on?

Right. And drive people to just learn more about it, which, you know, in today's day and age, obviously, that education proves to be super helpful, but also to let a lot of people to Bitcoin as well. Yeah, I mean, there's no doubt. And I look at like I'm drawing on similarities right now with what we're going through. And I remember the date. It was the end of 2007 when the banks foreclosed on them.

And they lived in that house for it. it was basically a year after where we really felt anything massive that was going on. And I it's, I'm looking at the same thing right now. And I see the same videos that you're, that you see on Twitter where you see like endless WeWorks and like endless commercial buildings that are just empty. And it's got, I have that same eerie feeling, but like this time around, I feel fortunate to have gone through that at a period where obviously it was

terrible for my family, but I, I'm definitely have come at the, you know, this crisis that we're in right now with entirely different mindset and understanding of, okay, it's not, you know, I understand what's happening right now. And, you know, now this time around, we all have different choices. Like we have exit signs that we can look at. And it's totally, you know, I'm super grateful to have gone through that period. It was a very impressionable period for me, but, and now I feel like we have something that we can add to this crisis here that helps people realize that there is an exit. And that's part of my mission here is to, you know, make sure that we are educating the people that were hurt the last time around that this this crisis we

actually have uh an exit sign for you and that's basically what i've dedicated my entire life to doing yeah i love that tell us a little bit more once you saw the bitcoin white paper read through it uh kind of how did you transition out of the legacy financial system into working on bitcoin related things well i mean immediately the first thing i thought about when i read the white paper was like, holy crap, this is like, finally Austrian economics has something to hang our hat on. Like that was the first thing that hit me. And everyone's like, what are you talking about? This is some like bubble technology, internet monopoly money. And I looked at it and I saw this like scarce programmatic monetary supply. And I was like, well, holy cow, there's

something really serious here that is like deeper when you start, you know, coming in that age where I've just learned like what we did with, uh, you know, money supply and like Anthony have played it since the seventies, I realized that there's something deeper here. And what I went on this, like realization that for the last 30 years, really, since like we ended the gold standard, 40 years, um, Austrian economics has this like gold argument, like it's some put on society and it's a very negative argument. And it isn't necessarily trying like it, we haven't had a tool to out-compete the other side of the argument. Really, it's been like the other side is going to fail and we have this gold standard. And when I read the Bitcoin white

paper, I realized that, wait a second, in a digital age, we have something here that can actually compete rather than us just banking on the legacy system failing. So as soon as I realized that back then, I was like, I got to dedicate, you know, after going through what I went through with my family and seeing like everything ripped from them without even having a clue what was going on. I just realized that I need to dedicate every hour of my life towards, you know, expanding and advancing this, this reality. So that's right then and there is when, you know, is what I saw. I didn't, you know, people that I've worked with, obviously Meltem at CoinShares, they come at things from like a, they're a lot more tech focused in this space. When I came at it from

like this weird place where my family lost everything, I'm disenfranchised with this kind of Keynesian experiment that I grew to understand while at Duke. And now I saw this like, okay, now we have a gladiator in the arena with Austrian economists. It's not some like bet that the other side is going to fail. It's like a competitor. So that was my big, like Eureka moment. It wasn't the tech. It wasn't anything like that. It was the, it was this like gladiator that we have in the arena now. Yeah. It's a really interesting way to look at, uh, most people point a finger and say, oh, they're going to fail and the only other option would be gold standard or something like that. What you're basically saying is, no, no, no, we don't need to wait for that other system

to fail. Actually, now here's a thing that can one, go compete, but also two, if it is the better system, the market will determine that and it will eclipse it over time, right? It's almost like this more offensive position than just a defensive kind of wait and see approach. That's exactly it. And And, you know, I think that even now, like you hear a lot of our fellow Bitcoiners that will kind of point at some, you know, sovereign currency blowing up and say, you know, this is why you should own. Yes, that is a part of the narrative. But like we are out competing right now.

You look at, you know, what savers are doing with like Square each quarter, what like you're seeing the Charles Schwab millennials buying GBTC. You're seeing, you know, the movement of us with the Fidelity announcement. We're moving the ball forward. It's not it's out competing. It's not just a narrative that the other system is collapsing. We're seeing exactly what I hoped we would have seen back in 2011, 12, when you read that white paper the first time.

So I'm waiting for, I think we still have, obviously it's still early and things like that, but it is not just this kind of sit back and wait for the old system to fail. We're going to advance this and be competitive and earn the belief in the users, not just inherit them when a debt-based system fails. And that's a critical thing that I think most people that are on the other side of the fence don't understand is that we don't view this as a we're here for when you guys screw up. We view it as we're going to kick your butt. And I think that's a big part of the Bitcoin community right now. And it's fostered from what Satoshi was really looking to build. I love it. Tell me more about CoinShares. You

started a business that ended up growing into a very, very large business. What was the impetus for the idea and how'd you guys get started yeah back then it was really cool to say that we're you know you're going to build this like regulated framework for bitcoin and to advance it and that was like the cool thing that everyone was saying and you know we saw really what happened is i was working for fintech so post banking post wells fargo when i came out of duke i was working for fintech this fintech helped companies hedge their currency risk uh which was really cool like twitter google uber all these companies use it to click a button see okay here's my vietnamese dong to dollar exposure. And they moved me to London to expand that FinTech business into AsiaPAC

and Emeo. So I was sitting there in the forefront of like, right in the crossroad of like tech and currencies. And I looked at what the Winkle bosses and the SolidX guys were doing at the time. You know, my fellow American counterparties were making no progress with the exchange traded product discussion. And again, what that era of people were trying to do was put like regulated wrappers around Bitcoin, we still are in many cases, to advance it. And I looked at, okay, well, London is like the third largest ETF market behind Japan and New York or the United States. And I was like, well, wait a second, nobody's really taking control of that narrative over here in Europe. And we have this amazing platform here. So that was the birth. That was it. That was

the goal of CoinShares was to advance the regulatory footprint and the regulated digital asset platform for Europe and globally. And we did that. And along the way, we launched exchange-traded products on the NASDAQ, Bitcoin, Ethereum, Litecoin. We then expanded that out, brought on Meltem, which was a massive part of the growth both in the US as well as over what we were doing with managed strategies and giving investors the ability to express into some of the more cutting edge parts of the space that you couldn't put in the ETP wrapper. And now CoinShares is still kicking butt. I mean, they're, you know, we've got, they just hired two people that came in from Wisdom

Tree to expand that institutional footprint into the rest of Europe and Asia. And, you know, Jean-Marie, Meltem, Danny, Frank, and that team is, you know, they're kicking butt. So I'm super pumped that, you know, that the company is doing as well as it is. And it's very mission focused, too, is to advance our industry and keep pushing the regulatory structure to help people gain access and exposure to our space. I just need to get back to the U.S. What was the kind of biggest lessons learned as you went out to build this business over the last couple of years? Obviously, it grew to quite a large size.

You spoke with everyone from regulators to traditional financial firms to institutional investors. Like, what are some of the takeaways either that surprised you or people watching and listening wouldn't necessarily know what you think is kind of really good data points for them to understand? Yeah, I think, you know, from my standpoint, I, you know, I beat my I think what most people don't understand is how actually how few institutions were, you know, we're in the market up until I think this year, really, you know, we, we I beat every door down in Europe. I mean, I talked to every pension fund, and maybe I was just too American and too, you know, too much of a sales focused guy. But, you know, we didn't see any institutional movement whatsoever. And then all of a sudden, we figured out over in Europe, that these products could be open and access to the grassroots movement where they could trade these in the retirement accounts, and it just exploded. And, you know, we saw our investors go from like a few thousand to 30,000 plus, once we figured out that a way of kind of positioning into the pension accounts over in Europe. And I think that, so what's interesting, I'm curious to see what the stats end up being through the rest of 2020. And, you know, we saw this big Paul Tudor Jones announcement. But from my experience, like I have not been able to move the needle as much in the institutional market as I have the grassroots retail movement, because I still, despite with all of the announcements that are going on about XYZ institution doing this, you know, I still think that we are way in the grassroots retail movement. And I haven't seen many companies move the needle yet. So I would say that to most Bitcoiners kind of frustration is probably what I saw the

most there. And if I would have spent more time, I would have spent more time on retail and less time on institutions back then. Yeah, it's really, really interesting because Robert Kiyosaki has this framework where he basically talks about gold and silver as like God's money and Bitcoin as the people's money, right? this idea of, you know, it is so democratized, it is so transparent. And it has been adopted by the people first, it's one of the first assets, if not the first asset, where kind of the

institutions, the Wall Street firms that, you know, quote, unquote, wealthy and elite, didn't be retail to it, right? It is the everyday person who actually has benefited from Bitcoin more so than many of those institutions. Yeah. And I, you know, I like, you can have them like, I know that I'm pumped that for my fellow Bitcoiners that are out there in the institutional grind every day, I'm pumped that they're doing it. But I look at the community and part of me says, well, we don't need them. And I think that is still what's really cool about our grassroots movement. Maybe that's just my socialization coming out of the 2009 when I saw these institutions just throw up on Main Street. And I view this as still a people's movement against that. But we'll see.

I mean, I think I do think, however, the Paul Tudor Jones piece was the single most changing or dynamic for the institutional market I've seen in the last six years since I've really been focusing here. And I think that, you know, he really de-risked the career risk of institutions expressing a view here. So we'll see. You know, that is exciting. And I think that there's, you know, now obviously we have some big names like Fidelity and the others that's, you know, Nomura and Komenu with coin shares. We have some big names that are starting to lean into this. And I'm excited to see what the next two or three years holds around that. But for me, I'm going to stay focused on, you know, on the grassroots part of it. And we're going to, you know, we're going to cater to Bitcoiners.

And I'm really excited to see the amount of like Bitcoin native financial service companies that are kind of focused on that. I think that's just as important as what the work is that our brothers and sisters are doing on the institutional side. So, so you came back to the United States, uh, and you now are the CEO of Kingdom Trust. And so maybe talk us through a little bit, kind of what happened, how do you guys, um, you know, acquire that asset and then kind of what's the plan in terms of what you guys are going to do? Yeah. So, you know, it was, it was time just to come back. Uh, I, I was in London for, uh, it was supposed to be eight months turned into five and a half years. Uh, and I love it there. I think, um, you know, it was kind of the point of my life where I wanted to be back in the

United States, grew up here. I've got, uh, my dad obviously playing footballs become very sick. Uh, it's public out there and I needed to be here on the ground kind of in the South. Um, but really the main driver commercially was, you know, I talked about what we saw in the retirement market in Europe. And I look back here and, you know, I saw this Charles Schwab report where the top five holdings of millennials and Schwab was GBTC. And, you know, I saw this like massive $28 trillion market that was just screaming, oh my God, it's just yelling at me. So I realized that, okay, this is an opportunity. I think it's the single largest addressable market for Bitcoin right now. So I naturally as someone that's looking to advance Bitcoin saw this as a reason

that I need to go, I need to go advance it, I need to go jump into that and advance that. So if you if you study the US retirement market, Kingdom Trust was the first qualified custodian ever to custody Bitcoin. So as a Bitcoiner, I love that. You know, it's a company in Murray, Kentucky. So it's like middle America, like, there's no airport in Murray, Kentucky, you know, you got to drive two and a half hours to the closest airport. And it's just this like middle America company that I saw as a roots to kind of build this 20 year business of advancing Bitcoin and retirement accounts. So I just fell in love with it. And I think the people, you know, we have 80 people there and I just thought it was a perfect platform to keep advancing Bitcoin and specifically in the

retirement market. So that was really the crux of it and what we saw there. Got it. And so obviously you guys have been uh advertising uh on the podcast and other places uh choice which is a self-directed ira product so maybe just explain kind of philosophically like what is the point of using tax advantage dollars to buy bitcoin and then we can talk about mechanically how it actually works yeah so like a group i think taking a step back about that we as bitcoiners it's amazing you look at our industry we're doing all these things like stacking sats every day and like counting the exact amount of coin that we are accumulating and you've it's like a for some it's a hobby for others it's a lifestyle and what's interesting is that none of us most of us

and i look at look at kind of the rest of my fellow bitcoiners like most of us aren't thinking anything about the tax element of this and if we're going to hodl or hold for a long period of time or maybe never sell or if you're going to trade for trade in and out you know what are the most tax advantage ways where you keep more coin to yourself. And that was a big part of why I felt it was so important to advance Bitcoin in the retirement market. So the idea here and what we've launched is the product called Choice. And Choice is a way for you to invest in the digital assets market or the legacy market from one retirement account. So today in your Schwab account, you can only trade like zombie legacy federal, like stocks and stuff in the legacy

system. Bitcoin is not okay. They don't let you do that. And then before it was only, you could only trade crypto, but none of the legacy stuff. So we view that as a problem and we wanted to integrate the two worlds. So choice is a way for you to have choice as an investor between the legacy markets and the digital market. You can trade any stock or ETF plus any cryptocurrency from one account. And I think that's, and that's important because now you can start hodling and trading in a tax deferred way instead of just in your non-tax qualified accounts. So as a hodler, you're becoming more elevated and sophisticated and thinking not just how much coin I'm accumulating, but how much net coin am I accumulating after taxes? And I think Coindesk

did a great piece on it today on just the concept of tax and Bitcoin. And I think we need more thought leaders that are just hammering that. It's not just about retirement. There's other things that matter as well. Yeah. And so obviously one of the things that people hear about is, hey, I'd love to use my tax advantage dollars in my retirement account to buy Bitcoin. But historically, I haven't been able to hold the private keys, right? There's been ways to do it, but it's kind of been indirect exposure. So I buy some asset and that asset that gives me the exposure, but I actually want to hold Bitcoin. And I think to me, this was the most fascinating part is you guys figured out how somebody could use those tax advantage dollars, buy Bitcoin and

still retain their private keys. So maybe talk a little bit just how mechanically you guys are actually doing. Yeah, so the so you're right. I mean, most most of the pretty much GBTC dominated the US retirement market up until now and recently with with what we've launched with choice. And the idea is that I believe every Bitcoin company CEO has a responsibility for its Bitcoin users to help them own their own keys, right? So in a retirement account, the most, the best way of doing that is what you do is you set up a retirement accounts with choice. And then under the retirement account, you actually form a, what's called a single member trust or a single member LLC. And that's in that single member LLC and trust actually holds the coins and you can

hold those yourself. And this originated back in the gold days. There was a bunch of gold bugs that wanted to not have the gold at Deutsche Bank and wanted to hold it in their retirement account themselves. So what was structured between the legal, the regulatory, the back and forth between lawyers and the IRS is that a retirement account could be structured in a way where you can have it at the top level with a single member LLC and trust underneath it. And then you can hold the keys yourself underneath that. And your requirement is to report back the positions of that to the custodian for the IRS annual filings. So it's amazing that this structure exists. It's been in place for a long time. We have people that own much more than just Bitcoin. You can

own fire trucks. You can own physical gold. It's amazing what types of assets are held. So it's also really holding your own keys if you're getting into Bitcoin is sometimes not, it can be daunting so there's a again as a as a my goal is to advance bitcoin in the u.s retirement market and i think along the way we've identified partners that can help us do that the most and i think so what we've done is we powered this solution using casa so casa has developed a really good user interface app and then the hardware compatibility with owning your own keys in a multi-sig capacity and they just nailed the user experience so that was a we were able to take that what they've built, which is another Bitcoin company, and we could just use that to

streamline this as a service. So before you had to set up all this crazy stuff to own your own keys. Now it's like an out of the box product. So as a Bitcoin CEO, I feel that we've got a good solution now for our users that have the ideological requirement as I do to hold your own keys. But then also to have other choices, hence our brand, to either hold them in cold storage with us, or put those coins in motion in the evolving and upcoming Bitcoin money market and capital markets layer, which I'm pretty excited about. So it's those three things, starting with the nucleus being hold your own keys and then extending out from there. Explain that last bit a little bit in terms of kind of that money market or the financial layer.

What do you mean by that? So what's fascinating about, if you look at the trajectory of legacy financial system we went from owning you know having your gold or whatever else there at your house and it was in your possession it was safe then we started depositing that into financial organizations somewhere along the way we messed up and detached gold from the dollars we ended up keeping dollars with the banks and then to keep them at the banks the what they did is they started saying, Hey, guess what? We're going to earn interest on your savings. We're going to deliver interest to you. So in lieu of you not having your cash or gold beneath your mattress, we are going to deliver interest for having it in our financial organization.

And believe it or not, I actually think that we're going to take the same path as an industry. I think way this is going to work in the next five, 10 years is that you're either going to own your own keys, or you're going to be paid on the risk for not having them yourselves. And in order for that markets to evolve, you have quite a bit of maturity that needs to take place over the last three or four years of these regulated prime brokers and the likes so that I can put that Bitcoin in motion with other regulated financial institutions and earn interest on it. So what you're seeing over the last three years is this really healthy capital markets layer and what I call Bitcoin money market layer that is emerging

between all these massive prime brokers that you've got that are regulated with deep balance sheets. I mean, you've seen coin shares, the backed galaxy, the BitGo, the Genesis, the Fidelity, you know, you have all of these amazing outlets, Jane Street, Saskahana, Citadel. And what's happening is you're seeing this really good layer of digital asset capital formation that's emerging that's allowing people to tap into it. So what I think is really cool is that, yes, I can own my own keys and have the largest percent of my assets in my possession,

but I also want to put some of that to work and earn interest and yield on that. So basically the way that we are going to be structuring our products is to helping users do that. And that whole industry is blossoming because it isn't just about the money markets. You're also seeing like the origination of DeFi and this other stuff emerged from that.

But before DeFi and all that stuff, there's some basic lending that's going on, where the interest rates are really competitive. And why they're competitive is not because it's some dangerous, uncollateralized market. It's because that they're natural commercial interest rates that aren't being manipulated at the short end of the curve by central banks. So you're seeing these healthy Bitcoin money market and interest rate markets that are emerged and savers love that. And we're seeing, you know, we are seeing massive demand with our 100,000 users at Kingdom for those types of products. So people want to hold their own keys with Casa, but they also want to take a piece of that and put it in motion. And I think what's cool about our industry is the better counterparties that we get into this, like Fidelity and all these others, that money market, capital markets layer is really starting to mature nicely and giving you a lot of really good options versus the legacy financial system. Good luck getting any interest on your cash, probably any more ever for as far as we can see. So that's what I see emerging and what I think is really interesting right now. Yeah, it's also a very different framework to kind of pit investors versus savers, right? And I think that in the legacy world, savers have basically held on to an asset that's been devalued over time. So inflation eats away at the savings, ends up not performing that well.

Even if you get into, you know, kind of the best performing money market funds, you're still talking about, you know, kind of inflation mitigation. Maybe you get a couple of basis points of outperformance over inflation, but it's frankly flat, right? Right. Whereas investors, if you just been in the stock market, you're doing 8%, 9% annualized year over year. Now, all of a sudden, here comes this piece of sound money in Bitcoin, and the savers of Bitcoin have been compounding the growth rate at like 35% plus year over year for year after year after year after year. And you now are getting in this weird world where the investment class is being outperformed by a savers class. The savers class just is holding a different type

of assets maybe talk a little bit about that yeah i mean you're no doubt that's what's happening i think you've got this weird dichotomy of of in in our industry and perception of our industry for that matter that bitcoin is what the only the only kind of people that are bitcoiners are some speculative punters no no if you talk to the most of us in this community it's not an investment they literally are talking about it in terms of their savings it's their life savings so now you you know, what we're seeing to your point that you just made is there's what's the only thing that's outperforming your savings are these other vehicles that generate cash flow on those savings because it's rooted with hard money and quality money. So now what you're seeing is that

market's getting so big, as you said, it ranges from eight to 30% annualized per year on your interest. Well, now when you have margin that that's that big, guess what happens? The counterparties that come in and service that market start to improve materially. So what you see is that you start to see balance, investment grade balance sheets come in and starts to provide services around that type of interest rate market, Jane Street, Citadel, Saskahana, you know, these big names. So it's super bullish for us. And I know that there's a percentage of the followers here in Bitcoin that may say that that's like blasphemy for us to ever think about putting coin outside of our own Casa account or our own cold storage. But it's not the way that it works.

It's actually capitalism. You want to have your savings and hold that not at a bank, but have it yourself. But then you want to put a little bit of your savings to motion, put it to work. And I think that you're seeing that extension attract some really high quality counterparties now that are investment grade balance sheets to come in and capture that. And I think it's only going to grow. I think you're going to see that become one of the biggest stories in Bitcoin over the next three to five years is the capital markets layer emergence around that and the interest market layer. The challenge that we face as an industry, quite honestly, is that when you have the money supply that is decentralized, right, so not government backed, we have to figure out how we are going to handle our version of an FDIC, right? So the FDIC is put in place for the U.S. dollar money markets that's there as a bank fail safe. Well, you know, the Bitcoiner in me would say, well, you know, what's about to happen in nine months when 60% of the U.S. community banks are about to, you know, be out of that cash?

But where is FDIC going to be then? But taking a step back, still looking at that problem objectively, we still have that problem or that matter that we need to address as a community. If you're going to frame it in a money market or in an interest-bearing world, where are those risk perimeters? And I think it's a really interesting discussion. There's going to be a lot of good debate and formation on that in the coming years. But what we do know is that the market is speaking and it's speaking loud. And, you know, those interest rates are attracting big names. And I don't think it's going to stop anytime soon. Yeah, you know, obviously, we're big investors in a company called BlockFi. It's like up to 6%, I think they offer on Bitcoin. And then the other thing too, that is really interesting to me is

some of these other types of products, right? So they've got a product that basically you can deposit Bitcoin and get a US dollar loan against it. So you don't have to sell your Bitcoin, but you can get some US dollar liquidity. And as we kind of unpacked it, what shocked me was using Bitcoin as the collateral ends up making it lower risk than most collateralized loans, right? Because what they'll do is they'll actually take an over-collateralization. So give you kind of 30 to 50% LTV. And then if at any point there is price volatility, they're sitting on an asset that is highly divisible, right? So they can only sell fractions of the asset into a very liquid market. And that's a way for them to actually drastically

reduce the risk, right? I always tell the equivalent of a car loan. Usually you take out the loan, but you take the car, you drive around and the bank can't come and say, okay, you got to sell the front, you know, the front door, right? Okay, we're gonna sell the back seat this time. Yeah, it doesn't work that way. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. And it's, you know, it's fascinating. And I agree you got it. And that's like part of the benefits. Again, this is awesome. This goes back to my point. This is we have hard sound money at the nucleus here. Right? And when you put that at the nucleus, you can start to see really healthy capital formation, like capital markets later start to emerge around that because as long as you have this hard money

at you know out competing the this is the issue with debt-based money and you know this is another example of us out competing and i think you're going to see this capital markets layer get more interesting you're you have more and more people that are switching their belief of bitcoin from this speculative thing into oh this is my this is my inflation adjusted savings that like that that i'm now going to leverage uh rather than this is me taking a punt right and i think the the amount of people in that community is growing as we speak right now. And with that, as BlockFi has been one of the most cutting edge companies in that arena, you're starting to see these really good options as a saver. And the counterparty risk is improving, improving. There's still,

I mean, look, at the end of the day, though, just like the gold guys have been telling us for 300 years, it's like 3000 years, whatever. It's not your coins, you know, not your keys, not your coins. But now I have optionality and choices as a saver on different things to do there. And it's really, I'm excited for it. Yeah. And I think a key piece, you said it a couple of times, and I think a lot of people who are excited about those types of companies basically say, look, don't put 100% of your savings into kind of revenue generating or cashflow generating type activities or put it to work, right? Save 90% or whatever the number is that you're comfortable with and take a small portion and go ahead and use that as risk capital.

It's a very kind of not risky approach to getting some yield, but also making sure that for the majority of it, you're holding your keys and you've got that sovereignty. Today, you guys obviously announced a really big deal with Fidelity. So maybe talk a little bit about what exactly was announced. Yeah. So today we announced that we have, in choice, you have three options as we just talked about. You can either hold your keys for your Bitcoin, you can put your Bitcoin in air gap cold storage with someone else, or you can put your Bitcoin in motion into these markets layer that we talked about. As a mission, what I'm trying to do is trying to deliver the best possible choices to our customers. And as a subset of that, as you just heard, I'm trying to

advance Bitcoin in the US retirement market. So what we announced and what we're proud to be a part of and humbled is to leverage the Fidelity institutional platform and team and use that platform to give access to it to the United States retail and retirement market through Choice, our product. So Fidelity is powering the Bitcoin cold storage if you choose that option to instead of owning your own keys to keep it with Fidelity. And I think it's important because as we talked about, I think there's a lot of people with retirement accounts or that are looking at Bitcoin and are kind of waiting, all right, well, Fidelity is involved. I've got my 401k, my IRA with Fidelity. If they're holding it, you know, I've been hearing about it from

UPOMP or from everyone else for three to five years, maybe, you know, maybe it's time. And I think us being able to have the opportunity to leverage their institutional products and provide access to that for retail is what we've done there. And we're very excited about it. I think it's big for Bitcoin. I think it's big for the US retirement market. And I hope it's just the first step of many more to come as the Fidelity Digital Assets team and mission continues to grow. And I think they have been a massive contributor to our movement. And I'm thrilled to be able to work with their team, Tom and Christine and the whole group over there are really cool to work with. Yeah. And one of the things that you guys are doing, so obviously working with folks like

Fidelity, obviously is a very big kind of stamp of validation, if you will, to some degree and people kind of trust that brand, but also we had to pass their diligence. That's for sure. Yeah. But there's also this element of like, if I want to take my retirement account, turn it into a self-directed IRA, right. Which I've done. I've got a choice account personally is I also not boxed into just Bitcoin, which I actually think is a really important piece of this because you and I are kind of hardcore believers of hardcore believers. And frankly, we probably are willing to take much more risk when it comes to an asset like Bitcoin than most people. But if I wanted to, I could actually go buy stocks. I could go buy other alternative

assets. I could kind of do all of this stuff out of this self-directed IRA. And so I don't get pigeonholed and saying, Oh, if I convert my retirement account into this new structure, then like, basically I have to keep it in Bitcoin forever. So maybe talk a little bit about like the optionality that people have and why you look at that as a positive. Yeah, it's, it's amazing. Like we looked at you know, you look at the retirement market and you know, what's happened the last three or four years is that there's been some of these companies that have emerged and they just do Bitcoin only. And what you have to do is you have to sell all of your stocks and all of your mutual funds, and you have to move cash over to this group. And they're charging you like 10%

on the way in. So 10% of everything you move in, they're charging. And it's amazing where you're having to manage this stuff over here at your Schwab account and then send it over here. And it creates this friction. And I don't think that's what's best for Bitcoin. And I don't think that's what's best for users and you know i view this option of and choice that we've provided where you can go from legacy markets to digital markets as just like the upward momentum of integration of these two worlds like i don't think it's anything that we're doing that is uh necessarily overly innovative it's just that now what we're seeing is like look hey rest of the investment world bitcoin and the extended blockchain industry or crypto industry is at the table we're not going

anywhere. So now we're here, we're part of the portfolio, whether you guys like it or not. And now investors are able to participate in your world and ours from the same technology rails that they've been doing for the last 30 years. And I don't think we'll be the only ones. I think it's only a matter of time before you see the exchanges start to offer legacy assets like stock trading. I think you'll see the big, you know, the mothership Fidelity and Schwab start to offer crypto trading soon and Bitcoin trading. I think this is an industry, you know, us with choice, we're kind of running through that gap

as hard as we can right now for the people that want one account, legacy and digital, and then have the option of how they wanna hold their digital in a forward thinking way. So we're trying to be our generation's next Schwab and Fidelity and really understand from the Bitcoiners view, right?

We understand things like our people wanna own their own keys and our people want to keep stuff with Fidelity or people want to put it in motion. It isn't just some like siloed. And we see that extending into the world of DeFi beyond just Bitcoin too. I mean, people are going to want to start baking, staking, earning other types of yield in the industry out of their retirement accounts. So I think that's where we'll stay competitive, but it's only a matter of time before you see the Coinbases and the Schwabs and the Fidelities at the mothership level offer both access as well. And look, as a Bitcoiner, I'm pumped about that. I know I'm

we're all here to make money and you know advance uh commercial and shareholder terms but um as a bitcoiner i think that it's my best thing that i can do right now is get abby johnson's attention that we're seeing you know 20 000 plus people on our wait list to open a choice account and that if they integrate bitcoin in the rest of the thing uh in their their fidelity accounts that's that's that's a big win for bitcoin i think so that's what i'm hoping that we're that we're going to do And I hope that the big players take notice and take Bitcoin, our industry as serious as we do. One of the stats that you told me early on that blew my mind was there's like 7 million people who already own Bitcoin, but they have none in their retirement account. Right. And this would

be the equivalent of saying there's a bunch of people who own stocks, but none of it's in their retirement account. That would just be unfathomable. But in Bitcoin, that's the truth, right? Dude, I was so, I was actually, I'm so embarrassed that I was one of them. Like I bought my first Bitcoin in 2012, I sit there, I got my wife signed up with Lolly. I do all of this stuff. And I didn't own any Bitcoin in my retirement account. And we did the math. If you take the cross, there's two ways of getting this. If you take the cross, there's 7.1 million Americans that have already made the leap, the leap to buy Bitcoin or take the dive into our industry, so to speak, and have a retirement account, but don't have Bitcoin in their retirement account.

And if you also look at people's investable discretionary investable money, they usually have three to four times more investable discretionary money in their retirement accounts than they do their non-retirement accounts. So when I say this is the biggest opportunity for Bitcoin, especially in this kind of stock to flow model that we look at, I'm looking at 7.1 million Bitcoiners that have three times more investable money in their retirement accounts that aren't using their retirement accounts to hodl. And that's what we're focused on. And if we convert some more people over to Bitcoin along the way, that's great. But for now, if we stay narrow focused on that, that's big enough. And I think that it's massive to me. And I think that if you

look at that, there's $28 trillion, $28 trillion that is in the US retirement market. And, you know, it's just, I think, I just think it's, it's a really big opportunity for us to all go out and, and, you know, evangelize about and make sure that these Bitcoiners know that you don't have to just have your life, your retirement savings at some zombie bank that's telling you that Bitcoin's not okay. And the other thing, by the way, just because I'm to rant about, you know, we have 50,000 people in the US, 50,000 that work in the Bitcoin industry or extended Bitcoin industry, like blockchain industry. And most of those companies have 401ks, like employer sponsored 401ks. And what you get is some like, you know, for like some time interval, like product that

rebalances for you and says, you know, here, put $16,000 of your money a year in this, and we'll tell you what happens with it later. And it's amazing to me. And you talk to some of these CEOs of these Bitcoin companies, and you say, well, your employees wake up every day to advance this industry, but they can't access that in their employer-sponsored retirement account. And I think that's an equal injustice. And it's because the same thing. Some legacy provider and bank is saying no no no too risky meanwhile you know they're uh the extent of that is in this kind of rat fed rat trap cycle of printing and you know stock and you know this whole stock inflation bubble there and i think that our you know our community has an opportunity to opt out of that

as at the employer level too so i think you'll see a lot of emerge there in the next year or two as well yeah it's absolutely fascinating what's kind of the goal with kingdom trust like where do you guys sit 10, 20 years from now and how do you get there? Just paint the picture for us as to what you're trying to build and what the vision is. I think the first thing I'm thinking about right now is just the 7.1. Every day I wake up and I'm trying to reduce that number of 7.1 million Bitcoiners that own Bitcoin and don't have a retirement account. The next thing I'm looking at after that as a business is that we actually, you remember that fire truck thing I told you about. We custody over 20,000 assets. And we have about 14 billion in assets under custody today.

So we custody things like REITs, private equity, physical gold. It's across 20,000 of these things. And what I'm really interested here over the next 20 years is where this intersection of our tokenized extension of the Bitcoin economy grows to and how that converges with the role of alternative asset investing. So where we're looking to be is at that forefront of where they're colliding. And in 20 years, if I ever stop advancing Bitcoin, what I hope that we built is as a Bitcoiner, our community and generations fidelity in Charles Schwab, where you know that if you want to have optionality of holding your keys in your retirement account or putting it in motion with some of the most interesting baking or staking mechanisms and where that blend is

between tokenization and alts. We're going to live in that. We're going to nail that. And we're going to do it in a timely fashion, not too early, not too late, and stay grounded in the Bitcoin community. So that's, I think, where the mission is. I wouldn't say that we're purely a Bitcoin native financial company because that's not what gets me excited. I'm excited about the integration of our industry and the legacy industry and how that's going to look. And I think we have the opportunity as believers, as early adopters, we have a responsibility actually to advance that so that in the next financial crisis, like how we started, that you've got individuals that aren't completely tied in to what nine regional central banks are doing. And all of your assets basically

have this incredibly high correlation to what they decide is best for your savings and future or not. It's rather to integrate these two worlds and make sure that people are getting the choice of both of them that's best for them. So I think that's kind of our goal. We'll see. Right now, I think there's a big enough challenge with just the 7.1 million and just making sure that they know that we're here for them. They can hold their keys. They can put it in motion. They can keep it fidelity uh and that if we do that well i'll consider it excess no matter a success no matter what yeah i always tell people that uh there's the legacy system the base unit of account is the dollar it's fiat it's inflationary it's yada yada whatever there's an alternative system that

alternative systems base unit of account is bitcoin and if you believe that there's two systems and the second system the one that you weren't born into if you think that has any chance of being successful one percent three percent five percent whatever chance uh or probability of being successful your portfolio should match that percentage right and so it's kind of this thing like i never understand why people say to me oh i know there's two systems like yeah that other system has a shot at it i don't know it's two percent but like i don't own any right it's kind of just like all right and that's why we kind of started with just like hey get off zero just get off zero percent and then once you do that then you can work your way into okay what

What is a healthy kind of exposure to a second system that actually is a competitor in the arena, as you described, right? Yeah. And I love, when did you do that? You started that like three years, was that two or three years ago, I think, when you started that. And we tried to meme that too through coin shares and tried to extend that. And, you know, it's not, everyone's going to be a little different, but you're right.

I mean, the number, we don't provide advice as a directed custodian, but, you know, you're totally right. I mean, most of our clients are now saying the same thing, like, okay, well, it's not zero, it's not the right number, but it isn't 100% either. And I think that's the point of having that choice and that optionality of, and also there's a decision to make once you decide, by the way, that zero is not the right number, then, okay, I think there's a second degree of decisions. Once you kind of start the rabbit hole, you have a next set of choices, like, okay, do

I want to hold this myself? Do I want to hold this with someone like Kingdom Fidelity, or do I want to put it in motion and leverage? Now, for a lot of newcomers, you're not going to do the motion leverage. You probably start with Fidelity. It was probably the easiest. But eventually, I think that the more that we can get people past the initial rabbit hole and more thinking in those terms, the better. And we just take the same recipe that gold guys have done for 30, 50, 60 years around that. It's not your gold, it's not yours. Same thing with us. So I think that we have as CEOs and people that are advancing Bitcoin for people that are coming in, right? We're getting off zero, as you

say. There's also an equal responsibility, I think, as a service provider to make sure that we are also educating them on the importance of owning your own keys in the same way that we've seen other bearer assets do before us like gold, but also give optionality and choice from a financial provider standpoint. So that will be, we still have a lot of work though, to get people off fully off zero. And I think that, but I think our mission and the announcement in the retirement market with Fidelity Digital Assets today is a good step to that. This is where I should tell everyone. And if you want to go sign up, go to retirewithchoice.com slash Pomp, obviously. So they think that I'm a genius. But before I wrap up, I asked everyone the same two questions,

and you're going to ask me one to finish it. First question is, what is the most important book you've ever read? The most important book I ever read. i mean honestly it's a series of books it's harry potter uh i am uh you know it i love harry potter i think that it's a uh it has a lot of it's taught me a lot of life life lessons what's the number one life lesson you've learned from harry potter expect the unexpected and be ready and stay humble it's three things that's pretty good uh the second question is a little bit more fun aliens believer or non-believer definitely believer you've not seen the videos earlier this year yeah those are ufos that doesn't mean that there's aliens i think it's i think i think

math i think you know mathematically and probably uh it's probable that there are uh other organisms that are outside of earth absolutely yes i'm a believer i'm with you on that i think the big question is do we want to find them or do they want to find us right right i think we want to find them. And that's why I'm a big Elon fan for that reason. Yeah. I don't think we want aliens coming here. And frankly, I don't know if they want to be here in 2020. So what one question do you have for me to finish up? Well, I mean, in terms of what do you think is the most important things that we can do as a Bitcoin community through the end of 2020 and the next two to three years i mean we've got election cycle coming up we've got you know all sorts of you're seeing

brock you know we have this interesting thing about brock running you know what a what do you see the most important thing for the bitcoin community to be doing in the next year a few years uh and you know what how should we be thinking about the intersection of like money and politics too you know so kind of a two-part a two-part question i know it's a bit uh that second one's kind of loaded but we'd be curious to hear thoughts on on both of them yeah so for the first part i actually think uh we should just let time expire what i mean by that is like we're pretty much doing everything that we should be doing uh i don't think that very many people in 2008 9 10 11 thought we would get to this point this quickly and so when you look at it that way

it's like all right we've kind of been doing the right things if you talk to most big corners we pretty much know what we need to do right we need to get more people exposed to the idea of bitcoin we need to get more people to understand why we need to get more infrastructure in place like all of these things are not hard to uh kind of conceive uh mentally it's execution and that just takes time right and so it's the work you're doing it's the work that other companies are doing to just again build the products that are necessary to make this stuff much more user friendly much more easy uh use tax advantage dollars like kind of all the things that we've learned from the legacy finance system incorporate those all the things we learn from the tech industry incorporate

those and like just go build it so i think that just like that stuff takes time and i almost never talked to somebody who i'm like wow no one's ever thought of that idea as to how to like push bitcoin's adoption forward uh it's more of just like who are the teams are actually building and executing are you doing it yeah like exactly are you waking up every day to do it yeah i think that's a key piece of it and in terms of like the kind of politics and money side like i've got a very i think weird nuanced view the first being like all politicians are the same right and when if you kind of just accept like okay if all politicians are the same who's in office who's not in office like all that kind of stuff yes there is some variation of impact that they can

have it's just not nearly as great as we all uh kind of fear when it's somebody from you know an opposing political party gets in office so when brock obama's elected right all of the conservatives are freaking the hell out like oh my god you know the president's gonna ruin the country then donald trump gets elected and all the democrats are you know freaking out like donald trump's gonna ruin the country the good thing about the united states is that like we do live in a democratic country that's got tons of checks and balances and like sure can they make a executive order and kind of overstep balance yes but as we've seen with both presidents they get reined back in by the court systems and kind of all that kind of stuff so like if you come at it

from one the job's really hard right two is they're gonna make a lot of promises they're not going to be able to fulfill. And then three is like, as a citizen, if you rely on the government to save you or like create this environment where you're going to thrive, like you're already screwed. So if you kind of accept those three things, then it comes down to like, okay, I'm in charge of my own life. No one's coming to save me. Like, what do I do? And I actually think like that's the area where the intersection with politics becomes really interesting because now what happens is you really look at government officials and say, Hey, your job is not to run my life. Your job is not to provide all of these things for me. Actually, your job is just

to give me the tools and the access and kind of empower me to go do the things I need to do for my life and things that make me happy that, you know, allow me to be prosperous, all that kind of stuff. And, you know, look, everyone will argue over what are those things. And like, that's kind of the controversy of politics. But I think that the more we can get kind of facilitators into these government roles where they understand like, hey, as a government official, whether it's at the local state or federal level like if i can just put the hands in or if i can put the tools in the hands of problem solvers and like get the hell out of the way that tends to be like a pretty good strategy um and it actually tends to be one where like you

can get re-elected a lot of times for sure and so i kind of think that like money is a great example of that where we're seeing the government step in and be like very heavy-handed very kind of centrally planned and like we know best for you and then if you look at the results already now we're only you know really weeks into this thing um and i'm with you in that like there's a lot of kind of economic carnage to come but already the rich have gotten way richer and the poor have gotten absolutely demolished and like you can say all you want that you're saving jobs you're doing all of this stuff but like are you actually saving jobs right and i wrote this whole thing today about um if you look at the the federal spending right so a lot of people don't know for the last

six consecutive fiscal years, the U.S. government has collected more federal tax income each year. So last year was the most federal tax revenue that they've ever collected. The year before that was the record before it got broken in 2019 and all the way back for six years. But every single one of those years, the federal deficit has increased as well. Absolutely. And so it's like, wait a second. And I'm not talking about just, oh, there was a deficit, so the national debt got larger. I'm talking about the actual annual deficit that was ranked in that year was bigger than the year before. You have an ever-expanding deficit. You start

looking like, why the hell is that happening? I started doing all this research. Basically, what it comes down to is really simple. It's demographics. 40% of the expenses of the US government are for people over the age of 65. Now, people can argue whether that's good, bad, indifferent. I frankly don't care. It's just now you're getting into a world where the only way to continue running a country where you have an ever-expanding annual deficit that's contributing to 26 plus trillion dollars in national debt is you have to either one say hey this is going to collapse at some point or two if you were a business you'd go to the equity and debt markets well you don't have to go to the equity and debt markets because you got the money printer and so

what do you do you just print money and keep going and go it's better than the equity and debt markets right and so then like basically what i said is like okay so if you keep going to the money printer then you're basically arguing one of two things either one we know what history shows us happens when you devalue a currency and we're going to solve the short-term problems and ignore the long-term impact. Or two, we actually think we can defy history and we can devalue the currency and it'll never happen to us. I wish that people would just admit like we're in bucket one, but I actually think a lot of people are in bucket two. And there's like this American exceptionalism or elitism that just says like, it can't happen here. And again, I don't know,

is that happening one year, five years, 10 years, a hundred years? I don't know. But I do think that that is the most interesting like vantage point or perspective on the intersection of money and politics and all this kind of stuff is like the politicians know what they're doing yeah and they're choosing to do the short-term things in order to get re-elected and mitigate damage in the short term all that kind of stuff i think bitcoiners again going back to kind of low time preference in this like very long systematic view are just saying this is not sustainable i don't know when it collapses but i'm not going to wait for it to collapse to then like have a safety net I'm actually going to go and protect myself by getting exposure to the other gladiator

in the arena. And therefore, I actually am going to bet on this competitor because I know the other competitor is weak, unsustainable, and can't go the distance. That's right. And I think it's a fascinating perspective. Yeah, I agree with you. And I think those two points, I mean, we can't sit around and wait for that either. But you're right.

I think we all share your view is that we're just kind of looking at this and like, well, this, this isn't, this is not sustainable. This isn't going to work. So I think, but at the same time, we, we have to also look back at our industry and say, well, this isn't ready yet. This is, this, this isn't as big as it needs to be to be able to inherit that. So we've got to keep, you know, you've got to keep progressing both. I couldn't agree more. Where, where can we send people to find you on the internet or find out more about Kingdom Trust and Choice? yeah i mean uh so if you go to uh my twitter handle is at ryan radloff uh with two f's and then if you want to find out about choice go to retire with choice.com and you can see all the

stuff with the optionality fidelity with casa with ability digital assets with casa and the others uh so um and we're announcing a uh a big uh partnership or a big um uh partnership next week with who's helping us power the rehypothecation and the lending and money in motion part of your Bitcoin next week. So we're pretty excited about that. So retirewithchoice.com and at Ryan Rapp. Thanks. Awesome, Ryan. Thanks so much for doing this. We'll have to do it again in the future. Yeah, likewise, Paul. Talk soon. Thanks.