The Pomp Podcast - #486: Ouriel Ohayon on Introduction to Crypto

Episode Date: February 5, 2021

Ouriel Ohayon is the CEO of ZenGo, a cryptocurrency wallet that has cutting-edge cryptography, security, and UX/UI for crypto assets. In this conversation, we discuss an introduction to crypto assets for beginners, how the ZenGo wallet works, and why so many corporations and institutions are jumping into the space.  ======================= Exodus is an absolute game changer in the crypto wallet space, and we’ve teamed up to offer an exclusive discount for you, as listeners of the podcast. Sign up for Exodus today using my promo code Exodus.io/. This is a no brainer for both newcomers and crypto heavyweights - go sign up today.  ======================= Diginex is the first company with a cryptocurrency exchange to be listed in the US. Their ticker is Nasdaq: EQOS, and they are the first crypto company that you can buy stock in. They also have a crypto exchange called EQUOS, which has been built to institutional standards, but is available to everyone. You can trade Bitcoin and Ethereum spot, as well as Bitcoin perpetuals, and get a 5% discount on all fees, by signing up using http://www.equos.com/pomp ======================= Money On Chain brings Bitcoin to mass adoption with solutions to meet the needs of different types of users: a fully bitcoin-collateralized stablecoin (DoC), a bitcoin on steroids (BPro), and a dizzying bitcoiner option for lovers of leveraged trading (BTCx). All this, without requiring the delivery of private keys. Money On Chain - Bringing bitcoin into the mainstream.  Visit moneyonchain.com/pomp to learn more

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Let's kick this thing off. Oriol Ollant is the CEO of Zengo, a cryptocurrency wallet that has cutting-edge cryptography, security, and user experience, user interface for crypto assets. In this conversation, we discuss an introduction to crypto assets for beginners, how the Zengo wallet works, and why so many corporations and institutions are jumping into the space. I really enjoyed this conversation with Oriel, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors.

First up is Exodus.io. They've been around since 2015, and they've got a popular cryptocurrency wallet that's supported on both desktop and mobile, allowing you to sync across multiple devices so you can have access to your funds anywhere. You can instantly exchange around 100 different cryptocurrencies. They've got interactive charts that let you view the price history of a specific asset or your portfolio's performance over time. And maybe the best part, Exodus is integrated with treasure hardware wallets, making advanced security easy for everyone. Visit Exodus.io for your free download or search Exodus on the App Store or Play Store. Again, Exodus.io or search Exodus on the App Store or the Play Store.

They've been around since 2015 and are supported on both desktop and mobile. Go to Exodus.io for your free download or search Exodus on the App Store or the Play Store. Next up is Diginex. They are the first company with a cryptocurrency exchange to be listed in the United States. Their ticker symbol on NASDAQ is EQOS, EQOS, and they are the first crypto company that you can buy stock in. They also have a crypto exchange called Equos, E-Q-U-O-S, which has been built to institutional standards but is available to everyone. You can trade Bitcoin and Ethereum Spot as well as Bitcoin Perpetuals and get a 5% discount on all fees by signing up using Equos.com slash Pomp. Again, you can get a 5% discount on all trading fees if you sign up using Equos.com slash Pomp.

Or you can go check out the first company with a cryptocurrency exchange to be listed in the United States under the ticker symbol EQOS. Again, NASDAQ ticker EQOS, or get a 5% discount on all fees by signing up using equos.com slash POMP. All right, and our last sponsor, Money on Chain brings Bitcoin to mass adoption with solutions to meet the needs of different types of users. They've got a fully Bitcoin collateralized stablecoin. They've got a Bitcoin on steroids B-Pro. And they've got a dizzying Bitcoin option for lovers of leverage trading through their BTCX. All this without requiring the delivery of private keys. That's right. They do not require your delivery of your private keys.

Money on Chain, bringing Bitcoin into the mainstream. You can visit moneyonchain.com to learn more where you can discover Bipro, a token created by Money on Chain that allows you to earn rent on Bitcoin positions and gain free leverage. Using their liquidity mining, Bipro holders also get MOCs every day. So, yes, with a Bitcoin on steroids, DeFi is definitely for Bitcoiners. head on over to moneyonchain.com slash Pomp. Again, moneyonchain.com slash Pomp. It's almost like a song, moneyonchain.com slash Pomp. Go check it out. Let me know what you think. All right, let's get in this episode with Oriel. I hope you enjoy it. Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his

guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. All right, guys. Bang, bang. I am super excited for this conversation. I've got Auriel here. How are you doing, sir? Bang, bang, Pomp. Great to be here. Absolutely. Where are you right now? I am right now in the heart of Tel Aviv, the country that vaccinate people faster than you can say it i love it all right let's uh remind

people what your background is and kind of what you guys do at zengo and then we're gonna get into this uh bitcoin and crypto uh explainer kind of introduction uh episode uh so uriel ceo of zango uh been in tech for way too long uh on both sides of the aisle both entrepreneur and an investor but now as an entrepreneur and building Zango for the past two years, which is an easy crypto wallet for people to invest in the space and sort of all-in-one mobile wallet where you can send, receive, buy, sell, earn, spend cryptocurrencies very easy. I love it.

So let's just, for all these people who are coming in now, they see Bitcoin's price ripping, right? They're like, oh, my God, this is amazing. I need to go learn about it. Let's just start with kind of one-on-one, what is a cryptocurrency? Well, it's a digital asset that is rare. And that is rare. And therefore, that has value when the rarity of this asset is mathematically proven. It's not because people say it is rare. It's because you can actually verify it. Now, the beauty of it is

that unlike money, you cannot unlimited, without limits, print it. And therefore, when you want to know exactly what's happening with a transaction, everything can be proven. You know where it's coming from, you know where it's going to, and the quantity also is limited. So for people who are coming from the world where all they know about is money, it's really difficult to understand at first because you don't understand this notion of unlimited money.

But here is the thing. In 2020, we have learned that there is something like unlimited money. And COVID crisis has helped us realize that we've seen these trillions of dollars being literally printed by the Fed in the US and many central banks in the world to sustain the economy. So people start to realize that the money that they have in their pocket does not have necessarily the value that they thought that they had. And so that has attracted them just out of curiosity towards these digital currencies that cannot be printed at will. And so I think this is the first point that needs to be understood about cryptocurrencies. I know this is also near and dear to your heart based on what I heard on all your podcasts. And I think this is something that needs to be understood when you get started. Absolutely.

We'll talk through a little bit about that's cryptocurrencies. then talk about kind of how people can get started with cryptocurrencies. Yeah. So to get started, first, I think you need to understand a few things that are very different from the world of money as we know it. First, it's a 24-7 world. It never stops. It's really the money that never sleeps, as they say. And we are not used to that. Our banks are closing down on the weekend. The stock market is shutting down during the weekend. There are like post-trading hours in crypto. And we all know it, we don't sleep so much. It's never stopped. So you need to be ready for that. You need to be ready for a pace of continuous activity. The second thing

that you need to be aware of is that, and we might talk about it a little more later, is in the world of crypto, you need to be very careful with security. And unlike traditional finance, where you have an account where you can reset a password, or you can press a button called, I lost my password, or call your bank to get your account reset. In crypto, if you lose your password, which is basically a private key, but I will call it a password to make it simple, then you lose all your funds. And we've seen in 2020, many of those stories have been horrible. Recently, there was a story in the New York Times where someone lost nearly 200 or more than $200 million dollars so being careful with security is super important and here is the thing people

will make mistakes because no matter how careful they are they are not used to deal with security especially with security related to money so being very careful in the solution that you use understanding them is super super important whatever solutions you pick make sure you understand it fully and especially the limits of it especially the risk associated to it and there risk to every single solution. There is no magic bullet. There is not a gold standard, if I may say, in crypto security. Even what was considered until recently the safest solution, hardware wallets, we've seen it with Ledger. There are point of failures. There are security things that can happen to your funds. You can be phished. Your credentials can be lost, et cetera, et cetera. So

you need to be understanding very well the risks. And by the way, this is what we've tried to build at Zango, which is a system, a wallet, which does not depend on password. It's actually the first wallet ever that does not depend on password. So that's really something very, very important, understanding the limit of the system that you are using. I don't know if you want to say something here, but I think it's really an important point. How does a wallet work without passwords? So this is where the magic of multi-party computation can enter. Multi-party computation has been a science in cryptography that's been around for 30 years. But basically, what you're doing with multi-party computation is you are distributing the security of a single

secret, in that case of a private key, among multiple parties. And what we have built in Zango is a completely passwordless system around that where we ask you multiple factors, one of which is going to be your biometrics, not the device biometrics, but the liveness biometrics. I could show you right now, I have a 3D mask behind me and even those don't work. But basically what it does, it's biometric scan of your face

and it looks if you are alive, if you are you. And so only you can access your account. You can associate a trusted face to your account also so that someone that you trust can also help you recover if something changes in your face. But what happens is you just get in with an email, you get in with a magic link like on Slack, and you get in with your biometric scan and your account is fully set up in 19 seconds, no password to remember, nothing can happen if you forget something because there's nothing to forget. And so for beginners, it's very, very important.

And we've seen recently an explosion of traffic in our system because of this recent bull run of people coming to crypto. And they need something that is at the same time simple, but also that feels secure. And when you expose them to all those private keys and 24 words, it's very intimidating. We are in crypto for a few years. We are used to that.

But most people are not used to deal with that. And it's a very intimidating, even sometimes frightening step to go through. And most of the time, actually, it's been even a break for most people to get in because they don't know what to do with that. So security really matters, understanding it. If you want to go, you need to understand the limit of it.

And then when you go, you go. So you get in, you understand that you have your wallets now, and you can go get some crypto. Most people think that the only way to get Bitcoin or to get crypto is to actually purchase it. But this is only one of the ways. There are many, many ways you can obtain crypto or Bitcoin without even purchasing it.

There are many referral programs that enable you to invite friends and earn crypto. There are many cashback programs where you can just spend real money and earn back on crypto. There are many airdrops that are distributing crypto for free without you doing anything. There are ways you can get paid your salary in crypto.

And it's happening more and more as you were aware. You can, we, for example, pay many freelancers in cryptocurrencies and they want that and so why they want that it's a different reason but it's happening it's way convenient more convenient that sending a bank wire when they are on the other side of the world so so getting paid in crypto is another way and so there are many ways now if you want to purchase you can purchase and there are many many avenues for doing that exchanges you can go to many many exchanges so you have to go through a registration process, an approval process, a KYC process, where they will ask you identification. It's

surprising the first time, but then you get used to it. And then you will be able to buy with a credit card, with a bank wire. And then you have to know what you're doing. You have to know when you're buying, of course. And here, no financial advice. I think there's a disclosure in your podcast, but you have to find out what is the best moment for you to get in. The important point is to make sure that once you make the purchase, you invest money that you're not ready to lose, that you are sorry that you are ready to lose and you will feel okay about it if that happens because there are risk risk of volatility there are risk of things that can go to zero even though the probability is low and when you make a first purchase and you see those prices go up and down

it's very easy to to panic it's very easy to not understand that and that's something that people that are new to crypto are also not used to this volatility factor uh you know the stock market when it moves like 3%, 4%, up or down, people are kind of, okay, all right, that's the day. But in crypto, for example, today it has moved like nearly 10%. You say, what the hell is going on? Or a few days ago when Bitcoin lost 24% in a day. Well, if you've been long enough, that's part of the game.

That's how it works. And so once you know that, it's fine. But the first time you need to be ready for it. So if someone wants to get into crypto, try to actually not do it alone that's some that's a often a tip that we give to people who want to get started try to not do that alone so that people can actually reassure you when you do something and you know very important like all the crypto services good crypto services have great customer support so that they can assist people in those moments of tension of stress so

So being aware of the volatility is super important so that you don't panic and you don't panic sell. And this is the best way to lose money. So once you know that, then there is your first transaction. Like, that's it. You got your crypto and you're going to make your first transaction. Here is a damn stressful moment. I don't know if you remember, Pomp, the first time you made your first time transaction

on the blockchain, you had to take a public address. Oh, my God. what is this thing? Like, it looks like nothing. You have to send it. You have to verify it three times, four times. You compare your screenshot with the computer because this looks like nothing. And this is awful. This is damn awful. I'm sure at some point those will be resolved, but today this is the case. So you have to be familiar with the public key and no panic there. You just have to look at the address that you're using and make sure that you are indeed sending to that address then you have to be aware that blockchain transactions are not

instant okay sure there is the lightning network and there is all these like layer two but when you are beginner you're going to make a normal transaction you're not going to go through those funky services that are unbattled tested and not built at scale so you're going to make a normal transaction a normal transaction is not instant and then there is this concept of confirmations so people are not familiar with confirmation when you make a PayPal wire or a Venmo wire or the bank wire you just press the send button and it arrives or it doesn't there is not this notion of like I have to wait for this transaction to be pending and confirmed once and confirmed twice and so understanding the concept of confirmation meaning that behind the scene there is a process

of confirmation operated by a network of miners or computers or a security process is important so that you don't panic that you've pressed the button sell and you don't see the transaction arriving it takes some time this time can actually widely vary it can take a few minutes it can take sometimes a few days when the network is congested and then you have this confirmation that you can see so you know most of the wallets they will make you understand that there is a confirmation and which number some of the best will actually notify you when a transaction has actually confirmed. But understanding this concept of confirmation is important. So that's it. You've gotten your wallet. You've gotten your first crypto. You made it. You made your

first transaction. You understood what is an address and a public key. So you can send your crypto. You understand what is the concept of confirmation. You understand that crypto is not instant and that it can take some time. But now there is a new thing that you need to understand is the concept of fee transaction fee right that's something that is a deep source of frustration in the industry for new beginners why because we are we are kind of not used also to that like when you sure bank have used have used custom does to pay fees or for all sort of things and we kind of forgot about it but people come to crypto with like the dream of this new finance paradigm where everything is fast and going to be cheaper or free well no guess what

you have to pay fees so what kind of fees do you have to pay you have to pay network fees and those network fees can widely vary you have to pay the miners okay they don't need to understand that but they have to pay the miners who operate the transaction and so uh so those fees can widely varies the network is very congested it can be a few cents and it can be single digit dollars and sometimes double digit dollars like we've seen bitcoin network fees or ethereum network fees being so expensive that sometimes they are more expensive than the total amount of money that you want to send and if you are using god forbid a smart contract like for example lending money on compound for getting some APR or something else, then that can quickly rise up to tens

of dollars. So it's very, very surprising and hard to understand. And it's even worse to understand if you want to try to get into the website that explain it. They all look very geeky, and there are sorts of graphs, and you don't understand that. The point is, if you're not aware that there are fees, if you're not aware that they are highly volatile. If you're not aware that those can vary over time, it can be a deep point of frustration. Most people discover it sometimes too late. We at Zango, for example, spend an

enormous amount of time to explain to people how this works in our customer support. Sometimes it's enough, but many don't feel sometimes they feel that we deceive them, although it's not our responsibility. And I'm sure most services have the same issue. That's something that is built by design the worst is on ethereum because you have to sometimes when you want to send an erc20 token a token you have to pay the gas in ethereum and if you don't have it then you're stuck and so it's kind of getting into limbo where you just acquired a great token or whatever chain link you need to swap token whatever yeah that's it i got it i went through all those steps and now you want to send it and say oh you have to stop here you have to get now some ethereum because

this is how you send a transaction so the concept of fee is deeply frustrating in industry not just because it exists because it is complex in itself and one of the jobs of the wallets are there is to make sure that you smooth that as much as possible you cannot eliminate it you cannot pay for it if you pay for it you will go bankrupt some have tried to do it and they deeply regretted it and went backwards so so you just need to make sure that people understand it as much as possible So now you understand all of these things. And I think at the end of the day, now you're part of the beginners of the digital economy, right? Now you understand that you are in charge of your own funds, that you can make transactions, that there are multiple ways that you can acquire crypto or you can earn crypto, and that now you can spend crypto. and now there is a new chapter which is investing these assets in all sorts of services but then when you realize that you are at the step you're not a beginner anymore you start to become an

advanced user and you start to explore the avenues of the of the crypto economy and the new open finance so anyway i think those are very very important things we tend to forget them because we've been so much into it that once we know we do it naturally it's like a new grammar or new language that you've learned right you forget the alphabet and the grammar or when you play music you forget the scale you just play but when you deal with beginners and I'm sure in the recent bull run many people have tried to contact you ask you questions I got like I got harassed by so many people what is this and what is that and and just a good reminder that to be doubt worse that the majority of the world have no idea what we're talking about absolutely no

idea and we need to be very very uh humble in the way that we help those people get to this industry we have to be patient and we have to be very very simple in the way we explain things because it's very intimidating so i think that's a good uh a good uh first uh let's say a first package of tips for people who want to get started. And if you have grandmothers, or if you have aunts, or if you have friends and family who want to get started in crypto, they should be aware about all of those things. That's a great primer. Why are so many institutions and corporations getting into it? Well, because they also realize the same thing. They realize that if you look at the value of the dollar and its relative weight and power

for the past two years, and we will not say who is responsible for it or not, okay, but there was a global crisis recently that has accelerated that. You see that the dollar has basically lost its momentum as an asset of trade, an asset of value, and so there are so many things that are depending on the dollar, including all the global financial infrastructure. So all the institutional players who are exposed to these mechanisms say to themselves, well, what am I doing here? I see all my assets basically melting. I cannot let that happen.

I need to have something that is uncorrelated to the value of that dollar and that works by a different kind of logic and they see this kind of new asset in particular bitcoin that cannot be printed at will that accrues in value the more people participate in the network and suddenly and suddenly they make just a simple calculation maybe i should diversify my portfolio and what has happened in the past six months you've seen public companies putting crypto in their balance sheet. You've seen Fortune 500 companies starting to talk very differently about Bitcoin in a very positive manner. Banks, you start to see those fortunes and billionaires also, even people like Mark Cuban that are very negative about crypto. Basically, you realize that they own some of it.

And so you have kind of this wave. You have also all these celebrities that wonder themselves publicly they should expose to bitcoin get exposed to bitcoin and do right and so you have kind of this wave of people that start to adopt it and that's kind of engaging more people to think about it not to take action but to think about it and so you have the you know the the relative perception that the dollar is losing its value that it needs to have an edge an exposure to your portfolio you start to have all these public companies that start to make you know micro strategy of course everyone's talking about them all the time okay they could they could make a podcast right of the of what they're doing on a daily basis it's it's just insane they've made

the composition of a billion dollar i think in cryptocurrencies uh you know very very smart guy behind it and so there is not one company right now in the world that is not having second thoughts about it that is not discussing their bitcoin strategy uh um you know it would be irresponsible for them to ignore it it doesn't mean that they will take action but it's definitely on the table and so on top of that you have also the retail market and uh it's not a u.s uh trend it's not uh just a western development it's it's a global trend uh if everywhere in the world you see this kind of mass attraction for something that enables what I like to call a borderless economy meaning a system where you can transact freely with anyone without permission of anyone so you

can not just speculate but also participate into all the financial functions of an economy the most important one is getting paid there are so many people that are not being able are not cannot get paid because they don't have access to a bank account or their bank account or their bank account has been closed or because the rates are not functioning well or because the national currencies is is worth nothing and so we have to remember that we are very lucky in developed countries but there is an enormous amount of actually the majority of the world who is who is not so lucky and so they need something that works and for them it's not like a nice to have or an edge it's an urgent need it's something that they need yesterday and so we

see this adoption at a global scale of all those all those people who want to just have an access to an asset that they can transact with very simply and obviously they most of the time have only a mobile phone so they can use only a mobile wallet they cannot use a hardware wallet or a computer wallet, and they don't have the sophisticated vaults of the hedge funds and things of that nature. And the first thing that they want usually is Bitcoin. So there was kind of this bull run that has happened recently has been also illustrated by that. And, you know, many companies, including us, I've seen our traffic exploded. You know, I think the price of Bitcoin went 3x in two or three months, something like that, or close to 3x. Well,

all the servers went also 3x all the metrics went 3x and all our sleep has been decreased by 3x too and everyone has had down times and it's been really a challenge for this industry uh just proving that we are not yet ready for mainstream it is happening but we're not yet ready uh the customer support you know and coinbase for example just published an apology they can't keep up it's really really hard when you have all those people coming with all the points that we've mentioned have no clue what crypto is about and ask this question, are impatient and don't understand security and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, it's very hard to keep up with that demand, not to serve them the crypto that they want, but also to serve them as customers because

they have legitimate questions. So it's an industry that is, I think, in an inflection point in terms of the nature of the demand that is shaping it. It's no longer early believers, geeks, financial traders, those who have made crypto the first 10 years. We see now two different shapes adding up on top of that, compounding on that industry, which are clearly institutions and not crypto institutions, institutions who have understood the necessity to diversify and need an edge of exposure in their portfolio. and this massive retail demand that is global and not just in Western development because they just need exposure to something that enables them to live and participate and build their wealth because otherwise they have nothing or close to nothing.

So I think this is what we've seen in the past months, and that has been really exciting but also very challenging. What are you looking most forward to in 2021? What's the milestone you're most interested in? Well, you know, it's a very special day. We were recording on a very, very special day today. There's a new president in the US and there is a lot of eyes that are turned towards what's going to be done in terms of first regulation. There is a set of actions that have been engaged before the nomination of President Biden that

raise many questions about what would happen to the space in terms of how would stablecoin be considered, how will exchange relief to operate with wallets, the identification of the users, the data that they need to keep trace of. All these were kept in the air and never translated into any sort of action, but they have deep, deep, deep consequences into how the industry will be shaped organized and adopted by the outside meaning the customers the users and so now i guess one of the things that everyone is waiting is to see how this is going to play out there is a now a new sec or chairman that has been nominated um which apparently i say apparently but to be verified like in crypto is crypto friendly but we'll have to see uh we'll have to see how the

OCC now also is getting organized after Brian Brooks now has departed and was, we all know it, very looking forward to the development of crypto. And so for me, 2021 is a milestone year in terms of how the regulation in the US, which is going to be a model for the rest of the world, are going to be shaped. There is a set of critical SEC actions that are going to play out in 2021, which could be defining to how some projects are going to be evaluated. So the first one in mind is obviously XRP because we know that it's happening right now.

So we see how it plays out and the jury's out there. But I'm pretty certain that it's not the last. There will be other type of action of that nature against other projects or against other tokens. And they will be defining. We've seen that they've hit big projects before like Telegram that could not go out live because it was stopped, I would say, at the last minute. And the SEC seemed to be determined to draw a line. It's not very clear where it is,

but to draw one line. And so I'm also looking forward to see how far this is going to go. Finally, I'm also very interested to see how finally, because this is a choke point of the industry, banks are finally going to adapt to that new world because, I mean, just to give you an order of magnitude, about half, maybe more of all crypto transactions purchases are censored by banks right now, just because they decided so. Okay. It's not because it's illegal. It's not because it is a new law somewhere that says that, it's they decided that it was a danger for their customers and they apply it randomly and it's a real pain for customers for crypto operators for customer support etc etc they have no reason to do it even worse now there are there are texts

in the u.s in particular that allow banks to custody digital assets there are new rules especially in the state of wyoming that allow people you can get a bank license if you're crypto company. And there is more and more grounds for welcoming crypto if you are a bank, embracing the change versus resisting to it. It's like being a newspaper in the early days of the web and just denying that you want to go digital. Well, that has turned really, really, really bad for some of them and really, really well for those who adapted. So I really want to see in 2021 banks be braver be braver embrace the change I'm sure I'm ready to bet that there will be one major bank that will make the the move and it will be a major win for them because they will attract

the industry to them and they will attract the adopters to them and it it will set it will set the pace for the rest of the industry but unfortunately for now there is this reality so So I really want to see that change. And I think what could make that change is also what I said before, the regulation. On the rest, on the technology, I'm pretty bullish. I'm sure there will be major innovation, especially in the territory of fee management, which is, like I said before, still an area of disasters and frustration for everyone in the space. There is great, great progress in Layer 2 and in Lightning Network.

and I'm sure we'll see something coming out of it. So overall, I think there are a lot of very important milestone events that will be defining to the adoption curve of the industry. Obviously, more and more easy solutions for people to use, not just for beginners, but also just for people like us who are very busy and need something very convenient. And I cannot say it enough, people underestimate the power of simplicity and convenience. Those have been unlockers for

the digital music business, for the streaming business, for the mobile business. It will be an unlocker also for the crypto economy. And right now, the space is still way, way too complicated, even for the successful companies. Last hope is I hope our world become a little less centralized. Right now, the majority of crypto assets and crypto transactions are essentially done in centralized services, which is precisely the opposite of what crypto is supposed to be about. It's supposed to be a decentralized, user-controlled ecosystem. And today, it's not the case. And the reason is precisely because it's way easier to do it in an exchange than to do it on a decentralized wallet. But I think it's already changing. We see the trend of Bitcoin moving out of exchanges back

wallets. And I think it's going to accelerate in 2021. I think that's a great view on the world. Where can we send people to find out more about Zango? Well, it's very simple. It's zango.com. And on Twitter, it's at Zango. No funky stuff. We managed to get both. And on Twitter, I'm easy to find. I usually answer to all your tweets. So you just follow Pomp and you will find me somewhere there. You're doing a fantastic job. I love it. One last question for you. You've already answered all the rapid fire questions I normally do. So the only other question you've never answered is what's your sleep routine? I've got the guys that ate sleep now are basically trying to take over the entire tech industry and get everyone to use their thermoregulation

mattresses. And I've got one and I'm sleeping like a baby. What's your sleep routine? My sleep routine is that simple. I turn on the TV. I've got a backlog of great TV shows that I'm watching. The last one that I saw was Ted Lasso, which I highly recommend. And usually I fell asleep in 10 minutes. It works perfect. I love it.

I love it. All right. Let's send people to zengo.com or at zengo on Twitter. Oriol, listen, thank you so much for this. This is fantastic. You're an absolute wealth of knowledge. I think that people who are coming into the industry can learn a ton from you.

So I appreciate you taking the time today to do this. Thank you, my pleasure.