The Pomp Podcast - #521: Scott Lynn on NFTs and Iconic Art Sales

Episode Date: March 26, 2021

Scott Lynn is the Founder of Masterworks, which allows anyone to purchase and trade shares in iconic artworks. In this conversation, we discuss the high end art market, importance of scarcity, fractional ownership, digital art, Beeple, and NFTs. ======================= Exodus is an absolute game changer in the crypto wallet space, and we’ve teamed up to offer an exclusive discount for you, as listeners of the podcast. Sign up for Exodus today using my promo code Exodus.com/pomp. This is a no brainer for both newcomers and crypto heavyweights - go sign up today.  ======================= Remote makes it easy for companies of all sizes to employ global full-time employees and contractors. We take care of international payroll, benefits, taxes and local compliance, so you can focus on growing your business. Learn more about Remote and their new Remote for Startups program at remote.com. ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 140,000 investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy to understand language, while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://www.pompletter.com

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Let's kick this thing off. Scott Lynn is the founder of Masterworks, which allows anyone to purchase and trade shares in iconic artworks. In this conversation, we discuss the high-end art market, importance of scarcity, fractional ownership, digital art, people, and NFTs. I really enjoyed this conversation with Scott, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsor. First up is Exodus. They're an absolute game changer in the crypto wallet space. We've teamed up to offer an exclusive discount for you as listeners

of this podcast. You can go sign up for their wallet today at exodus.com slash pomp. Again, exodus.com slash pomp. I've had JP, the founder and CEO, come on the podcast before. I'm a big fan of what they're building. It's super, super slick, very well designed, very user friendly. If you're looking for a crypto wallet, you should go and use Exodus. Go to exodus.com slash pomp today. Absolute no brainer for both newcomers and crypto heavyweights. Go sign up at exodus.com slash pomp. Next up is remote. Remote makes it easy for companies of all sizes to employ global full time employees and contractors. We take care of international payroll, benefits, taxes, and local compliance, so you can focus on growing your business. If you have a remote team,

you must use Remote. You can learn more about Remote and their new Remote for Startups program at remote.com. Again, if you have any sort of remote team, you should go sign up at remote.com. Remote makes it easy to manage your remote workforce. Lastly, don't forget that I write a daily letter to over 140,000 investors about business technology and finance. I break down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry, you can subscribe at Pompletter.com. Again, Pompletter.com. All right, let's get in this episode with Scott. I hope you enjoy this one. Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely

their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Scott here with me. Thank you so much for coming back, sir. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Let's just jump right into the topic of the day. NFT seem to be absolutely taking the world by storm.

But I want to talk about everything from the art investor seat. I think there's been a lot of conversation from the artists and how the artists can make more money and how great this is for artists. But obviously, there's another side of the market in the art investor. And so let's maybe start at the top with just the macro argument for like why people should be looking at art in general. you know, whether it's physical art or digital art, what is your kind of thought process around that argument? I mean, we tell investors to think about this asset class as it's one of the oldest asset classes. Sotheby's and Christie's have been around 250 years, but historically it's only been limited to the ultra wealthy. So a lot of these paintings sold for between a million

dollars and a hundred million dollars. So it really hasn't been that accessible. Masterworks is the first company to really securitize a painting, sell shares in a painting so people could actually invest in them. But if you look at the investment characteristics, I mean, contemporary art post-World War II has outperformed the S&P. It's an uncorrelated asset class, meaning that it's a great tool to diversify a portfolio. So we think art has a role in almost any investor's portfolio, though historically it just hasn't been possible. Yeah. And so when you start to dig in, let's start with the kind of traditional art market. You talked a little bit about the outperformance of the stock market. How does that market look, including the

securitizations that you guys are doing today? Are there limitations by country, by kind of wealth status, accreditation? Just what does that look like at the moment? I mean, most investment grade paintings are in excess of probably a million dollars in purchase price, right? So qualitatively, the way to think about the art market on a global basis is it's really a market where you have ultra wealthy people living around the world, trading one to a hundred million dollar paintings with each other. And that is the $60 billion a year that is the transaction volume in the art market now. So obviously up until Masterworks, there really hasn't been a way to invest in these paintings, but we see that changing. And I know we're gonna

talk about NFTs, but I think that's another exciting part of the art market. Yeah. And so today uh through something like masterworks uh basically anyone with um you know 100 bucks 25 000 whatever it is they can come in and they can actually participate in these traditional pieces and really your guys goal is to not only get access uh up and kind of reduce friction but also too i know that you guys had this banksy piece that you sold and there was a pretty nice return there just walk through maybe like that as an example as to how masterworks itself works Yeah, so basically we go out, we buy a great painting. In that case, a Banksy painting.

I think the title of that painting was Mona Lisa. We raise capital, so we sell shares to fund the purchase of that painting. And then after we sell the painting, which in that case was very fast, it was roughly, I think, one year later, we distribute proceeds to investors. So in that case, we sold the painting quickly. I think it was a 37% return out of fees. That was a great outcome for investors. you know generally we tell people to think about about investing in art as a long-term hold um seven years ten years uh really takes a takes a while to generate returns but we also have

secondary markets for people about trading shares and great paintings so that's that's an alternative for people that can't can't wait the full time for sure and what are you seeing in the traditional art market around prices given the macro environment kind of all the quantitative easing are prices going up as more and more people look for store value assets i mean it's a it's a great question. Historically, we've always talked about art as an asset class as just an outperforming asset class. In general, again, for art created after World War II, it's outperformed the S&P by I think 150% from 1995 through 2020. It's this really interesting asset class regardless. I think today, we have a lot of people who are just saying, hey, governments around the world

are printing money. We think inflation is going to happen. We're interested in real assets and interested in art specifically so we're seeing a lot of um a lot of interest and we actually did a uh we we co-published a report with city i think in december of 2020 where city analyzed the the correlation between real interest rates and art prices and and not surprisingly as interest rates go down you see our prices go up so it you know it's a conversation that we have with investors every single day there's there's tons of uh tons of interest in art as a uh as an inflation hedge for lack of a better term right now. I am not going to be surprised

if you told me there was a big overlap between people who believe they're macroeconomists and art investors that are speculating. Let's talk about NFTs. Obviously, everyone seems to have woken up to this, whether it was Beeple's kind of $69 million sale at Christie's. Now there's this artist Pact at Sotheby's. And then obviously all of the volume

that's going through some of these other exchanges that are kind of digital native. what's your take on, you know, what's happening? What questions do you have? What concerns or what are you excited about? Yeah, I mean, look, we I think we've gone through this whole process of that everyone's gone through, which is like, what is going on to to kind of trying to rationalize it in our in our own head? You know, when the when the people thing first happened to be totally transparent, I mean, I was having conversations with lots of friends where I thought it was just this price fixing thing, right? Like someone was pretending to buy this digital work of art for

70 million dollars you know people is actually being paid 69.9 million in a back room uh to to try to you know create this market for digital art but after talking to to christie's and the people that worked there it seems like that definitely wasn't the case i think there were more than 30 bidders uh registered on that work none of them were known at the auction house prior to the auction um it seemed you know you saw the videos of him uh watching the sale like it definitely seems like that was a real transaction and it seems like like digital art and nfts are here, at least for the short term. So we, you know, we find it really interesting from a lot of different ways. Like one of the things that our investors ask us a lot is, hey, we're really

interested in this blue chip segment of the market, which outperforms the S&P, has low loss rates. You know, that's a great allocation for our portfolio, but how do we get access to stuff that's more speculative? And I think this is an interesting way for investors to speculate in the art market, which hasn't frankly been available before, right? Like there's never been a segment of the art market that you can make returns like you've seen with NFTs. I mean, I think that also comes with a lot of risk and I, you know, I don't know how to think about these prices and everything right now, but it's definitely the most speculative segment of the art market right now. You talked a little bit about like the people who were registered for the Christie's auction,

almost all if not all of them were unknown to the auction house and so do you look at this as basically this isn't so much uh the art market you know is evolving this is literally just net growth to art in general and this kind of digital natives both the platforms the artist and the art investors yeah with one exception so we we do know i mean i know of two very well-known artists right now who who um you know i can't say their names but they're working on nfts so there's artists themselves have clearly woken up to what's going on. I think collectors are still divided, right? Like the people that are investing in or buying NFTs are not the same people they're investing in or buying blue chip arts. I think those are two different universes. Maybe those

Venn diagrams overlap at some point, but right now they're pretty distinct. Yeah. And so when you start to look at this, I know that there's still kind of a moving target, right? Do these prices make sense? What are the use cases? But when you look at it, maybe what's like the rationalization you're telling yourself, right? So if I had to say, hey, be the NFT bull, how do you think about it? And what do you say to people who are skeptical? call? Yeah, so I think this is a very hard question. And, you know, if we go back to basic fundamentals of, you know, how markets are created and how markets are sustained, all markets have to have some sort of framework in which they operate. I was actually having this

conversation with our general counsel earlier. And, you know, the art market, there's a clear understanding between institutions and collectors around what, you know, what's important, what's historically significant which artists did what things first um you know and they they sort of have these places in history what we refer to as cultural significance and there's a correlation between cultural significance and price and many of these artists also are are you know they're deceased or they've been painting for for decades and you have this long track record of representation between galleries and prices at auction etc so there's there's this entire framework of what you can establish price um i think for me the question is with with the people sale in particular you

know it is what happened culturally significant and i think you can you can argue that in different ways um and and is that is that is that precedent for the artist and for future prices of the artist um you know we we see this with lots of artists right there's tons of artists that that we see the art market all the time that go from very unknown artists to having, I wouldn't say a $70 million sale, but maybe a $1 million sale. And then everyone's asking, is this now a million dollar artist? So that's not uncommon. I just think the magnitude of the $70 million is what really shocked everyone. And so in that kind of historical example, where there is that $1 million sale, and then people start asking, is this a million dollar artist? How do you normally think

through that right like are there certain frameworks uh or data points that you look at to kind of determine uh is this a kind of outlier sale or has the artist actually um you know increased the value if you will of of all their pieces yeah it's an excellent question so if you if you look at artists in the secondary market and the secondary market is really you think of the art market divided into two different segments primary market which is where artists are painting new paintings and selling them through galleries and the money goes back to the artist in the secondary market where paintings are resold over time between multiple collectors. Generally in the secondary market, most of these artists have long track records. So you're analyzing similar

paintings that have sold historically, how prices have increased over time. And with certain artists like Basquiat, for example, Basquiat's prices shockingly have gone up roughly 18% a year for almost 20 years, right? It's just a very predictable market that continues to increase. With artists that that don't have that track record usually what you're asking yourself is how culturally significant is that artist and and i would say there's not a clear definition of cultural significance cultural significance to us means three different things one who who who is that artist exhibited with like have they been associated with other great artists to what institutions collect that artist what museums collect that artist and then three how global

is the demand for that artist um you know but it's hard to to apply that definition of cultural significance to what we're seeing in the nft space yeah if you had to make a guess as to how the cultural significance can be applied like that filter that perspective what would where would you start with the nfts is it just trying to figure out like who owns uh this artist who's promoted them what podcasts have they done like just how would you try to figure that out. Yeah. I mean, I think that, I guess that's right. I mean, I think, I think you, you would almost look at like Google trend data, right? Like what, what's, what's the, what's the, the share of voice for a particular artist in kind of the digital ecosystem? How is that share

increasing or decreasing? The Beeple example is, is somewhat unique and that's, that's really almost the first very well-known example of an NFT sale, right? So that in itself kind of has cultural significance or I think does have cultural significance. But yeah, I think since this art is digital and really all of the transactions are digital, you sort of have to redefine what is cultural significance. Yeah. And it also feels like in the traditional world, a lot of the data points that you described in terms of where they've been exhibited, what institutions are collecting, that all seems to be very kind of analog world, right? Which would make sense for traditional art in kind of the analog world. Before we started, we were

talking about what some folks are doing in the NFT space is they're trying to buy digital art, and then they're going to essentially display it in these digital worlds, these digital museums or whatever. And so while that is not prevalent today, if that does become prevalent, it's almost a digital recreation of a lot of the same kind of data points, if you will, right in terms of the institutions or the digital museums that are collecting may become a signal as well. Yeah, I think, I think that's really fascinating. And we, I mean, we're thinking through the same things, right? Like what are the use cases for NFTs? And you, you mentioned one,

which is digital museums, which I hadn't heard of that one. I think that's, I think that's super interesting. The other is just, you know, how, how do you have devices actually display NFTs in homes? So people can, you know, outside of a laptop kind of consume the art. You know, the other thing that I've wondered a lot about is how do artists copyrights work with, with NFTs or do they work with NFTs? I think that's really interesting, right? Like the idea that maybe anyone could consume an NFT if there is a fee is, you know, is there some some sort of like brokering or sale of a copyright of an NFT to to a marketplace of buyers?

I think that's really interesting as well. So it's super early days. I mean, we're interested in it. It's very hard to tell where where it goes from here, but it does seem like it could be a new segment of the art market that people really haven't haven't thought that much about. And when you think about copyright, unpack that a little bit more in terms of how you think about copyrights in the legacy art market, and then what you're thinking about in this kind of digital art market. Yeah, so many people don't realize this, but if we buy a painting at Masterworks, let's say we buy a $25 million Basquiat, we don't actually own the copyright to that painting that's owned by the Artist Foundation. So independent of ownership, the copyright is something that's separate and distinct. So, you know, how copyrights have been licensed historically and how that whole industry works is pretty, pretty antiquated. Most most people that own copyrights that basically generate revenue was that, you know, they find people that are violating the copyrights, hire an attorney to go out to the person and they negotiate, they settle. And that's that's how they make money.

It seems like to me there could be could be some interesting correlation between NFTs and copyrights here that could could make more sense. Yeah. And it almost feels like in some weird way, one of the reasons why artists are so excited about NFTs, it appears, is because they essentially can code into the tokens that they'll get a royalty stream, right, kind of a 10 or 20% on each future sale of their piece. And so copyright may be kind of intertwined in that in some way. Maybe it's a little different than it is in the traditional market, but it's a way for them to at least monetize much better the secondary market than they have as they weigh today. Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. You know, the other thing that we've just been thinking a lot about relative to NFTs is this, I think it's almost, you know, theoretical, just this concept of scarcity. so we you know we we fundamentally know that in the art market one of the things that drives returns is scarcity and the example that I always always like to use with people is Jackson Pollock so you know Pollock during his lifetime painted all these drip paintings many of which are 100 million dollar paintings today but throughout history after he died all of those paintings

were essentially donated to institutions except for what I think are 21 paintings now so out of those 21 there's only a couple left that are great paintings most are I wouldn't say bad examples but B or C examples, but the B or C examples are selling for $20 million, $30 million, $40 million because if you want a Jackson Pollock drip painting, that's all that's left. So I do think what's happened here is digital art combined with blockchain has created this element of scarcity, which is really interesting. And historically, that's what's driven our prices as well. Yeah. And I guess the big piece that people don't understand also about the traditional art market is kind of the appraisal process

or what I'll call the infrastructure around art. So most people think of a market as just there's the artist, there's the investor or the buyer, and that's pretty much it. Maybe just touch on a little bit, how you guys leverage some of that infrastructure, the appraisals,

and then how, if any thoughts around how that translates into the digital art market. Yeah, it's a good question. So the easiest way that I tell people to think about how artwork is valued is to think about real estate, which most people are familiar with. So if you buy a house, you generally get an appraisal before you get a mortgage on a house. So art is the exact same.

You go to major appraisal firms that appraise paintings and they appraise paintings because for most of these great artists, there's similar paintings that are selling reasonably frequently, call it at least once a year, and they can kind of look at the trends and those prices of similar paintings over time and arrive at a value. You know, with NFTs, I don't know how that works, right? Because you have such a short time period. there really isn't isn't a history of comparables to um uh to value something but the thing that is interesting i think is most interesting to me about the people sale was the number of bidders

right because you have two bidders on a painting that goes to 70 million dollars you can say oh there's two people that are crazy you know here you had 30 people and that i mean 30 bidders on anything in the art world is unheard of right you don't have 30 bidders on a 25 million dollar Basquiat, right? Like you might have six bidders if it's a really great example and there's a lot of demand for a painting, but you never have 30. So I mean, the depth of bidding for that work in general is super interesting and does indicate that there's real value there, at least in a minimum to those 30 people. Yeah. And when you think about that, I don't want to ask you to speculate too much, but just why do you think it brought so many more people than kind of

traditionally it would, is it just, it's the first one. And so naturally people want to kind of be a part of it or is there some other reason? I think it's the, I think it's the, yeah, the first mover dynamic, you know, I mean, you know, I guess, I guess that, so the, the optimist would say it's a first mover dynamic. The cynic would say, whoever, whoever bought the work owns a hundred other works by people. And, you know, he just marked the market for all, all of the other works that he owns. Could be both, you know, who knows? Yeah, I'm very, very interested to see what the people pieces start to do in the secondary market now, given such a high price point, right? Do they actually materially move up or not? When you think about masterworks in the business

today, obviously, there is a ton of interest that has kind of increased because of the macro environment and asset inflation, and the desire to use that store of value through art. Are you also seeing or feeling any kind of increase in just traditional art because of NFTs, like almost like a Streisand effect where people are talking more and more about art in general. And so it's also bleeding into the traditional market. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's interesting. I mean, we, our membership team has hundreds of calls a day with, with investors who are interested in masterworks. And I mean, almost all of those calls now are, you know, have some, some NFT question or comment. I think it's funny that like, to me, it's amusing because like the person asking

the question doesn't really know what they're talking about the person on our membership team doesn't really know what they're talking about so it's kind of like you know the game of telephone you play when you're a child where like people just start saying things and it doesn't really mean anything in the end um but but definitely it's generated a huge amount of interest in art and investing in art yeah and then uh we've talked a lot about traditional art and i think for most of this we've been kind of referring to physical paintings or or other types of art um what about sculptures. You've got a great piece there kind of over your head, but how do you think that is affected? Is that a lot of the same things that you see with paintings or any specific differences

that are worth calling out? You know, so generally speaking, at least in a traditional art sense, the most investable segment of art from a medium perspective are paintings. If an artist is a sculptor, meaning if their main medium is sculpture, then generally sculpture appreciates similarly if they're an important artist. Like this is an artist named John Chamberlain, who was the first artist sort of in mid-century America to reuse found objects in a sculptural form. But, you know, mostly we tell investors to think about paintings. Generally drawings and prints don't appreciate at the same rate as paintings. And again, a lot of that just comes back to scarcity you know you think about an artist like Picasso I use this this stat a lot

where a lot of people will say uh you know I own a Picasso I have a Picasso Picasso created 60,000 objects in his lifetime you know there's there's a whole bunch of bad Picasso out there there's there's a very narrow amount of of good Picasso which is super rare and continues to appreciate really rapidly um but there's there's a lot that's just that's just not as important how do people determine what's good and bad uh in terms of Picasso right because I think people who are unfamiliar with the art market would say, well, isn't it all Picasso, right? Like he's such a genius. Uh, this shouldn't at all be great. Is it the way it looks? Is it, uh, some other sort of hierarchical, uh, framework people have applied? Is it the appraisers? How does that

get determined? Yeah. For an artist like Picasso, it's really, it goes back to this cultural significance comment, right? Like how has art history determined what portion of his work is most impactful and most significant and, and, and, you know, what is least impactful or least significant and any artist has you know they have true masterpieces Picasso Guernica for example you know that he spent years painting the painting um that that was one of his masterpieces that was recognized in in his lifetime um so you know it really depends on the artist and the work but usually they're they're really great masterworks they were recognized in their lifetime as a masterwork they spent you know years on them um very different than like a napkin drawing that

he might he might otherwise do that that makes sense uh what's been the most shocking thing you've seen in the nfts so far right because i know you're paying attention i know you're trying to kind of figure it out alongside the rest of us but just uh coming from the art world like what's been the most egregious shocking thing well i think that i think the most shocking thing is actually is actually positive right like we we were super skeptics in the in the very beginning of this i mean i i was 100 convinced that the christie sale was just fabricated so the most the most shocking thing to me was to find out that it wasn't um so yeah i mean we're we're kind of coming full full circle um with nfts and i you know i do i think a lot of these technologies

you know independent of art i mean i've been starting technology companies for 20 years and my passion you know before art is really tech and i think a lot of these technologies tend to kind of emerge have a lot of hype attract a lot of early adopters die off for five or ten years then all of a sudden there's a resurgence and you know there starts to become mainstream adoption so i do think that could be the case here right like we could be in the ultra hype phase which is bringing in a lot of early adopters startups will will start they will raise they'll raise money they'll build products around nfts etc and then 10 years from now or 15 years from now you start to get mainstream mainstream adoption um but yeah i mean i i i we've we've just been

we've been surprised with with this in general i think for sure uh and then talk to me a little bit about kind of what's been going on the masterworks uh platform itself in terms of the traditional art uh have you seen um specific pieces that people are really interested in or anything you guys have purchased recently uh that kind of stood out i mean you know our business is just exploding so last year we raised over 100 million dollars you know this year you know on track to raise three or 400 million, maybe more. There is huge interest in general, I think, just because most investors have totally exited fixed income. They're sitting on a bunch of cash. They're concerned about inflation. They're interested in real assets generally, but what are real assets?

I mean, I guess real assets are real estate. That's not that interesting from a return perspective, maybe collectibles, but within collectibles, art's kind of 90% of the market, right? Like art's a $60 billion a year market. So we're seeing real interest from very sophisticated investors coming into these vehicles and we're buying a $1 to $25 million painting every week now, basically. But it has been very interesting to see allocators who historically are regarded as some of the smartest people in the alt space buying directly into these vehicles for their own funds or themselves. So that's going to be one of my questions is how much of it's retail versus some of the institutional type investors. And it sounds like you guys have really kind of

cracked into the institutional world, but also still have a lot of retail usage. Yeah. I mean, I would say that today, 95% is retail. I think by the end of this year, 70% will be retail, 60% will be retail. We're seeing managed money, broadly speaking, coming into these vehicles much faster than anticipated for all of those reasons. Yeah. I'm waiting for the headline that says Masterworks, you know, securitizes NFT with Steve Cohen's participation, right? Some sort of crazy headline of the whole art world coming together. When you think through kind of demographic wise, are there certain things that you see on Masterworks? Is it more young people, older people, maybe geography-wise,

certain areas that people come from? Yeah. I mean, we're a regulated business. So all of our offerings are filed with the SEC as public offerings. Our sales team is regulated by FINRA. Our marketing today is only within the US. So we're only marketing to US investors. That doesn't mean that we don't support international investors. I think 15% of the investor base is international now, but we're not really reaching out to anyone outside of the U.S. So the demand today that we have is primarily from U.S. In terms of demographics, you know, it's really all over the map. I mean, you know, we have people investing from IRA accounts, so generally they're older. You know, we have younger people investing in these vehicles too. We're now having a lot more

people. Like when we started the business, we weren't really seeing people who self-identified with the art market who are collectors investing in the vehicles we're starting to to see that today um so there's really not any any rhyme or reason that who's who's on the platform we're kind of attracting everyone at this point yeah that's awesome uh and then last question for you is on the nft side uh is there anything that you've seen outside of people that's really kind of caught your attention and you're spending a lot of time on whether it's an artist a specific type of uh sale or drop or anything i mean we we are i can't i can't unfortunately talk about any of They're with a couple of well-known artists who want to keep it quiet.

But I mean, most of the activity that we're getting are from artists that we sell on the platform or artists who we're friendly with that are interested in NFTs. They're not sure what to do. I mean, they see an artist, you know, selling a digital work for $70 million. They think, you know, that could be me. So we're trying to, I guess, advise or potentially partner with those artists to help them kind to navigate the nft space figure it out that uh that makes a lot of sense uh have you bought any nfts do you want to buy any nfts i'm not smart enough to buy nfts like don't don't worry you

you me and everybody else i feel like uh uh the one that gets me is nba top shot right it's like the art okay like you know it's a digital version of the art market but uh owning the lebron layup from the you know random game on wednesday night in the third quarter uh that's the one i probably don't understand i know i kind of i i feel i feel like for the first time ever i'm like you and i are old like it's i don't know i don't know when that happened but it happened at some point it's all right well uh we're gonna meet up in our digital museums one day and look at all of our digital art uh while we have our uh oculus is on and there's real art on the walls and we'll have the cognitive distance and going back and forth between the two yeah i can't can't wait for

that. Awesome, Scott. Listen, where can we send people to find you on the internet or find out more about Masterworks? Yeah, www.masterworks.io. Just click request access. Mention that they saw us on your show and we'll help them skip the wait list and create an account. Awesome, man. Well, listen, thank you so much. We've done it once before. We will definitely do it again. So just keep it up and I'm a big fan and best of luck. Thanks. Good to see you.