The Pomp Podcast - #594 Nik Storonsky on Democratizing Access to Finance

Episode Date: June 29, 2021

Nik Storonsky is the cofounder and CEO of Revolut, one of the UK’s largest private businesses. Revolut offers everything from currency exchange and surcharge-free ATMs to global transfer payments and budgeting.  In this conversation, we discuss building billion dollar fintech company, pandemic insights to user behavior, serving retail and enterprises, crypto & stock trading, lessons from 2020, and his personal portfolio.  ======================= Revolut is a finance app in the US and UK, that say they're the simplest way to access crypto. Sign up today at Revolut.com/pomp and make 3 card transactions to get $15, which you can exchange for any tokens Revolut supports. As usual, when you move your money from fiat to crypto your capital is at risk. See T&C's for details. Revolut is a financial technology company. Banking services provided by Metropolitan Commercial Bank, Member FDIC. Cryptocurrency services provided directly by Paxos Trust Company, LLC. ======================= Whether you're an experienced crypto trader or just starting out, Kraken has the tools to help you achieve financial freedom. With the new Kraken app, you can easily buy and sell over 60 of the most popular cryptocurrencies in just a few minutes. Featuring a sleek new design and an easy-to-use interface, you can now take your crypto portfolio with you on the go, 24/7. Visit kraken.com/pomp to learn more or search "kraken" in the app store. ======================= Unstoppable Domains makes crypto easier by replacing your address with [AnyName].crypto. They allow you to send and receive over 70 cryptocurrencies, including BTC, ETH, and LINK with a single blockchain domain. Go to unstoppabledomains.com and get [YourName].crypto to make your crypto life easier. =======================

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Nick Staronsky is the co-founder and CEO of Revolut, one of the UK's largest private businesses. Revolut offers everything from currency exchange and surcharge-free ATMs to global transfer payments and budgeting. In this conversation, we discuss building a billion-dollar fintech company, pandemic insights to user behavior, serving both retail and enterprises, crypto and stock trading, lessons from 2020, and his personal portfolio. I really enjoyed this conversation with Nick, and I hope you do as well.

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That's what I have, Pomp.Crypto. It's the stress-free experience needed for mainstream crypto adoption. Plus, .Crypto domains are NFTs that are stored in your wallet, so you permanently own them and can transfer to other wallets as needed. Go to UnstoppableDomains.com and get your name.crypto to make your crypto life easier. UnstoppableDomains.com and get your name.crypto to make your crypto life easier. All right, let's get this episode with Nick. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Nick here with me. Thank you so much for doing this. Hey, how are you doing?

So I want to start first with this idea that you've built one of the largest unicorns in Europe and specifically have this idea of kind of a financial super app, right? Anyone in the world can show up to Revolut Store and you're able to service their financial service needs. Maybe let's just talk about where the idea for this came from and kind of why you're going after this opportunity. So initially, it started from my own problem. So obviously, I was an expat living in the UK,

so I traveled abroad and also I sent their money abroad a lot. And I was always pissed off by commissions. banks charged me and then i came up with a with a simple solution is effectively a global account plus account which allowed you to send and spend money at interbank rates but then our last five years we really expanded the product to to super up concept so the new value proposition is uh rather simple so we give you all your financial services products that you need for your daily life or 10 times cheaper and 10 times better compared to banks or stockbrokers or so on. And then the idea is that all these products are highly personalized to your needs because they all

talk with each other. So we actually save you a lot of time by just opening one account within two minutes for private retail. And then secondly, we allow you to have all these products either for free or at significantly discounted prices compared to banks. So you can trade with us. stock trading for free obviously currency exchanges for free and so on and so on so we save your money and then we make it in a nice user friendly way for sure and what's so fascinating is you talk about kind of your prior experience really driving a lot of uh not only the philosophical approach that you have but a lot of the features that you guys have built um you spent time uh as a equity derivatives trader at uh Lehman and a few other places uh when you started

to build out the actual financial service technologies. How much of your experience from the trader side played into this versus it was just more of your personal experience with financial service platforms? Good question. To be honest, when I started doing this business, I was shocked because I didn't really know anything. I didn't know payments. I didn't know acquiring. I had to learn everything from scratch. The idea to start this business was, well, obviously I was an equity derivative trader and I realized how much money I wasted on banking fees. But that's the only thing that actually helped me to build this business. Everything else I had to learn from scratch. Yeah. So if I'm a retail investor today

or a business owner, I can use the software that you guys have built. Let's start maybe with the retail trader first or kind of a regular investor, an everyday person. I come in, what are all the features that are available to me so ultimately for stock traders and crypto traders at the moment we give you access to all our u.s stocks we're shortly giving you access to european stocks so the whole idea is that account is global for you to trade right so you obviously if you're in u.s you load your dollars but then you can trade every asset out there without actually incurring commissions and then without incurring FX fees. Just to give you some

numbers to compare. Whenever you open, at the moment, a US stockbroker account and you trade, for example, European-based stocks, Australian stocks, Japanese stocks, there is a currency conversion fee involved and at least half percent, sometimes

it's one percent. So whenever you trade, your two-way ticket pays at least one percent cost to you. So we help you to avoid this cost. And plus, on top of it, we always have a very nice interface that they use. Got it. And so what is the difference of the user behaviors that you've seen over the last 12,

18 months, right? Obviously, we've got kind of COVID happened. You saw all sorts of uncertainty. But then also we saw this kind of historic monetary policy decisions across different geographies. What changed in user behavior or the specific kind of insights that you have watching how users use the use the platform over the last 12 to 18 months so basically because we have one up combining all of the national services that people using it in their daily lives so we can clearly

observe for a change in their behaviors so first obviously spending went down a lot like all the categories such as travel restaurants bars decreased at least by 60 70 percent and then we see a lot of people starting actually putting this money into their stock trading account and then buying stocks. So interest in stock trading probably doubled or tripled during this period of time. Crypto, at least three to five X compared to what we've seen pre-COVID. So in short, people have excess money because they count their spending and then they put this excess money into assets, trading assets. Yeah. What's so fascinating is here in the United States, we definitely saw savings rate went up, personal income rate went up. And then you have kind of

hard data and you can actually see and measure on the platform that a lot of that excess cash was going right into stock trading accounts or into crypto trading accounts. But it sounds like the crypto accounts actually had kind of a higher lift than the stock trading accounts. Is that just kind of a base effect where crypto was smaller before and so it's easier to kind of multiply it? Or was there actually more cash inflow into crypto than maybe the stock accounts? Yeah, I think we saw probably double our cash flow in crypto compared to stock in Florida. So if you look at our balances and compare crypto versus stocks, so crypto will be double compared to stocks. I mean, that's pretty incredible. Talk to me about the business account. So I think this is probably one of the most fascinating parts of what you guys are doing, where most folks who have tried to build kind of these super apps or one stop shops for financial services, they really pick one vertical, right? So they say, hey, we're going to go after retail or we're going to go after kind of the institutional client or we're going to go after enterprises.

And those are really kind of three different platforms. You guys have these business accounts right next to the individuals. And so maybe talk a little bit about what a business can do on the platform and then kind of why adding business accounts alongside of what the everyday person could use. So the main value proposition is, again, allowing businesses to use all financial services they need under one umbrella. So you can open an account within five minutes online, and then you've got access, obviously, to your bank accounts and multiple currencies. You can do payments globally, plus you can acquire cards or acquire payments online or offline without acquiring a solution. So think about it as Citigroup plus Stripe plus your payroll provider under one umbrella, and they're at price significantly cheaper compared to any other providers. so that's advantage number one and advantage number two we are allowing you to do global

business from from day one because obviously all the accounts are global right have multiple currencies you can send and receive payments from your local suppliers and then also you can sell globally as well you can sell in us you can sell in uk you can sell in europe australia and so on and plus on top of it we save a lot of money because of all this you know cross-border fees cross-currency fees uh overall it's a very uh beneficial products especially for people who just start their own business we give them a build to sell globally yeah what's so fascinating about this is obviously coming out of covid uh it seems like remote work uh kind of the digital economy uh has become much more prevalent and a lot of businesses that maybe weren't online uh now are

coming online very quickly, but also people starting businesses, they're basically global on day one, right? I remember maybe a decade ago, or maybe even, you know, eight, eight years ago, businesses basically, let's say would start in the United States, they would penetrate the US market, and it would be a pretty big decision, almost like an executive or a board level decision. Okay, this is going to be the year of international expansion, they would try to go push into other markets. But today, businesses basically, when they turn on, on day one, they're global. And so having that financial infrastructure, it sounds like that's really what you guys are trying to serve is being able to have a global business from day one and not have to worry about all

of the various countries, the different accounts, and all the different fee structures. Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly our value proposition for businesses. Plus, on top of it, we'll also automate all your processes. So we'll automate your payroll, we'll automate your acquiring, we'll automate your bank accounts, so you don't really need to run kind of any spreadsheets or any programmatic interfaces for software outside of revenue for business. Yeah.

Yeah. One of the best ways to build a valuable company is to just replace whatever spreadsheets people have buried somewhere inside of their business for sure. Speaking of different geographies, I know that one of the focuses for Revolut during 2021 has been geographic expansion. You've recently come to the United States. I know that you're pushing into Asia. Maybe talk a little bit about the penetration that you have in Europe and then really what the catalyst has been for your own geographic expansion globally? So if you look at Europe, we are quite penetrated into Europe.

And then in some countries, we achieve more than 50% penetration. So for example, if you look at Ireland, one in every two adults in Ireland, they're using Revolut products. And then the reason why we're actually running these two products, one retail, one business, it's like the two ecosystems.

So our goal is to pull these two ecosystems together and enable businesses and consumers to transact without intermediaries. So what it means in practice, consumers and businesses will be able to avoid all the acquiring fees, issuing fees, scheme fees. As a result, transactions become effectively free and instant. And secondly, what we're trying to achieve, we're trying to enable businesses to sell directly to RebLoot customers through a very simple product,

very similar to what Facebook or Google do. but we call it merchant odds when a merchant can go in a business account and then set up certain budget

and then put certain discounts on their products then these products will be automatically matched with the types of people who have similar transactions

before and this metric is actually much more precise compared to Google and Facebook because we own transactions of consumers

we know where they spend what they like as a result conversion for purchasing becomes much higher compared to Google and Facebook. And it's a win-win.

For commercial, they make a sale. And then for customers, they get a purchase at the discounted price. Got it. And so when you start to think about the various geographies, one of the things that in the United States specifically, but I think also some of the European companies, the knock against them or the critique is,

oh, these fintech companies, they're trying to skirt the law. They're trying to kind of avoid the regulations that a traditional financial institution would have to follow. For you, though, I think that you guys, I've read online, have applied for a U.S. bank license. I think in Europe you've also applied for that license. And so maybe talk a little bit just about the idea behind getting the banking license and kind of really it almost feels like take brand new technology and kind of superior user experience and software,

but also leverage all of the kind of components of the legacy system and kind of bring this together to provide the best experience for users. Well, ultimately, when we initially launched the product, we launched it without making a license, and it was a partnership with a bank, or in some cases, it was like a lighter license. So what we learned is that it's very difficult, almost impossible to merge our tech with existing legacy compliance and infrastructure of banks.

So partnerships are usually very difficult to do because we are very differently built, and our systems don't really talk with spreadsheets of banks. There's a problem. So we decided to go for banking license in almost every single country where we're in, purely to control infrastructure and to provide the best experience for our consumers. Plus, on top of it, banking licenses allow you to monetize better and also provide the deposit insurance for your consumers.

Yeah, makes a ton of sense. One of the things that's fascinating to me is it feels like over the last 12 months, 15 months, you saw all of that user behavior changing from what I'd consider kind of the more traditional financial services, things like the deposit accounts, et cetera, and a big shift into crypto trading and stock trading. Talk a little bit about almost a renewed focus, it seems like you guys have on those products and kind of what you're building there to help service some of the clients and really just empower them to do what they're trying to do on the platform. Yeah. So we're obviously, as we observe consumers going into, I think,

wealth management, stock trading, crypto trading. We increase our efforts in building new products for them. For example, recently we launched social trading. So the way it works, you're able to see a leaderboard with all top traders on Revolut, and then you'll be able to follow them and then see what they do, what they buy, what they sell, see composition of their portfolio, see see their returns uh so in short you can you know just just follow what they do um the number one number two we're obviously uh into crypto so at the moment we have well quite quite a large number for our tokens and then we're working actually on uh enabling uh everyone to deposit uh crypto in our wallet and overdraw crypto uh from from our wallet plus on top of it we're

working on that paying interest on your deposits in crypto. It was kind of a high-level overview of what we've done and what are our plans. Got it. And then when you start to see the stock and crypto trading, I don't know if you know this data off the top of your head, but I'm assuming that most of the users that are really kind of pushing into the crypto trading are probably younger. They probably have smaller balances.

I think we kind of see this across the industry. But is there a lot of overlap between the people who are using the crypto trading features and the crypto trading accounts with the stock? Or do you feel like these are pretty segmented? Some people want to trade stocks, some people want to trade crypto, but there's not a ton of overlap there. It's rather segmented, I would say. So we see a lot of interest from crypto,

and then we see a lot of people trading stocks. So usually, if you look at data, probably if you look at crypto traders, probably 80% just trade crypto and 20% that trade stocks and crypto. Yeah. It's pretty crazy to think how segmented it is. Almost two different kind of worlds, two different financial systems being built there. What's been kind of the lessons that you've seen from the GameStop, the AMC, kind of all these meme stocks and kind of the Reddit crowd?

I'm assuming that's driving some tailwind in stock trading in general. But any lessons learned there or insights as this has kind of become more prevalent in financial markets? Well, lesson number one is your infrastructure should be as stable as possible, right? and then be able to take 10x and even 20x load when these things happen. Because otherwise, if your infrastructure cannot handle the load, then you'll have a lot of complaints from consumers.

You'll have problems with regulators. So generally, it makes sense to overpay for your cloud providers, but to be able to have a very high load. Yeah. And so really, it's a technical infrastructure kind of problem more than anything, right? It sounds like kind of these surges of interest

is something that previously either hadn't happened or were hard to kind of anticipate. And the approach that you guys have taken is just almost overkill, right? Have so much infrastructure availability and have the elasticity to kind of bring it online as quickly as possible to serve these moments of surge of interest

and trading volume. Yeah, exactly. So it actually makes sense to run at huge overcapacity just to ensure that peak loads is fulfilled. I want to switch gears, talk a little bit about 2020 and into 2021. You're the CEO of a multi-billion dollar company that has tens of millions of users. You guys do, I think, hundreds of millions of transactions per year. Any lessons learned over the last 12 to 15 months in terms of the pandemic and the monetary policy kind of experiments that are going on? As you sit in that kind of CEO seat, when you look back over that time period, what are some of the lessons that you take away? And you're like, wow, this was either surprising to me or things that I wish I had known going into the year. I think what I learned personally and what the whole company learned is it pays off to be extremely tight in costs.

Before 2020, we were running as usually a startup. so we were hiring a lot of people we didn't really care about costs but as COVID hit and obviously our business was very payment dependent so we saw revenues going down 40% so we were very fast at cutting costs ensuring that our unit economy is great

but ultimately for startups that are less fast it could have been a very troubling experience So even though COVID is now almost over, we still are very tight with costs and with the unit economics. Yeah. It's interesting you described kind of pre-COVID that you were more of a payments business. Would it be fair to say that you would categorize yourself as someone that asked two years ago, hey, we're more of a payments business than anything, and now this is more of kind of a brokerage type business? Or how would you think about that transition between where you get most of the volume and revenue from for the business? initially we're definitely into into payments business model and our was a 70 percent of revenue came from payments now we make probably less than 30 percent

from payments and the rest is being made on other types of businesses so we definitely diversified a lot and covid actually helped us to to shift as well yeah it's uh it's fascinating to kind of see and you know you guys probably won't get enough credit but uh to you know make a transition like that. With the speed that you did, given the size that you were and the user base that you had, I'm sure it's not easy. One of the other things that's fascinating to me about you specifically is, as the CEO of a multi-billion dollar business and one of the largest unicorns in Europe, do you feel pressure to kind of be successful because you feel like the European tech industry is kind of counting on you to be the example of, hey, successful companies can be built here in

Europe? Or how do you think about the position that you're in or the company's in, in light of the local tech community across all the European countries? To be honest, I never think about it. European tech versus Asian tech versus US tech are another way in business where we need to compete within this niche. And we want to be number one in it. And then I focus every day on ensuring that the company produces number one product and then our financials are also number one across you know the category of digital

banking yeah and when you think about that what are some of the things in the future kind of on the horizon that uh will help kind of vault you guys to number one and stay there uh in terms of features are there things that the user base wants uh that you're excited about or kind of thinking through how to bring that to them we've got quite a few for example our product number one that we already built and we are in tasting phase so it's travel related so we we we bet that you know a lot of people will return to travel and then there will be a huge spike in travel activities so we build a product within our marketplace within our hub you effectively have equivalent of booking.com or xperia so it's our interface everything is ours you can book stays or hotels you know houses

at the same price as Booking.com and Expedia, plus on top of it, you can get 10% cash back instantly. So it's exactly the same experience, same prices, plus on top of it, 10% cash back. So that's product number one.

Product number two that we built during pandemic is actually credit related. So basically it's called Seller Advance. And then the way it works, as soon as you connect your seller to our account, you are able to withdraw your salary much before your salary is being paid. So how it works in practice, for example, if you're being paid on 30th of every month and today is 15th, you can get 50% of your salary up front.

Got it. So basically the whole idea is you can get access to the cash and there's some underwriting that's going on in terms of you guys are fronting that money. There's probably a little bit of a fee that you're taking for that. And what it really does is it allows people not have to wait for that next paycheck if they need to, you know, some sort of expense, etc. Exactly. So we underwrite your salary that way allow you to withdraw your salary proportionally to accrued days. Yeah. What's fascinating about this is, you know, I think it's the top four banks in 2019 made about $8 billion in overdraft fees, right? They essentially took money from people who didn't have money.

And what's so interesting about it is when you start to unpack that data, a lot of those overdraft fees are not because the people didn't have the money. It's because of exactly what you're addressing here, which is they just have expenses that occur right before they actually get paid. So rents due on the 12th. They've got a car paid on the 13th. The Netflix bill hits on the 14th. They get paid on the 15th. But somewhere in there, they overdraft, and then they're able to pay off what they owe plus the overdraft. And so this specific credit product sounds like you would essentially allow people to kind of avoid that overdraft situation, you know, by getting access to the capital early, which is pretty impactful.

Okay. Yeah. And then talk a little bit about with that product specifically, the whole idea of like accrued days. Is that a risk mitigation type, you know, aspect to it? Or why not kind of front the entire, you know, pay period and only do the accrued days? Well, at the moment, it's a bit risk mitigation. And then the reason for it is we, well, effectively, we sell this product to companies as a benefit for their employees. And because it's not a credit product, so we actually can advance to people what they actually earn. If we would advance people much more compared to what they earn, it would be a credit product. Got it. So really what you're doing is you're essentially building infrastructure. You're going to the corporations and you're saying, hey, here's a great product that you should offer to your employees as a perk. And then your relationship is with the corporation, not directly with the individual employee. So it's kind of a B2B2C type product, more so than a B2C product. Exactly. Yeah, it makes a ton of sense.

Talk to me about plans in the United States. So you guys have come to the United States, you've applied for the banking license. Anything specific in the U.S. that you're focused on or specifically excited about? So we're still building the product for U.S. So ultimately, the product should be at par compared to our European product very shortly.

And then initially, we want to start targeting the whole expat community in the U.S. so there are at least 40 to 45 million people in US who are not from US originally and who still have a lot of connections abroad so our product allows them to have on day one global account and B allows them to send and receive money

from Europe, from Australia, from Japan, from India instantly and for free avoiding any fees plus on top of it if they want to trade stocks, crypto who are doing it at a better pricing compared to local stockbrokers. Yeah, makes a ton of sense. Before we get into the rapid fire questions to finish up,

I'm always fascinated by people who spend all day building financial technology like yourself. What's your personal portfolio look like in terms of are you mostly allocated to cash, to stocks, to crypto? Just how do you think about investing your own money across all these various asset classes? Good question.

And to be honest here, I mean, obviously, you know, majority of my holdings are actually in the revelry stocks, which are private and not tradable. In terms of stocks, I generally look at top five tech companies and then I'm alone only. And then crypto wise, well, to be honest, the last one and a half years, I didn't do much because, you know, prices too high and then it went even higher, even higher. Now it crashed, but I didn't do anything. Yeah. It's one of these weird things where people always forget, technology entrepreneurs for the most part, that the idea that 90 plus percent of their net worth is tied up in the illiquid stock of their company is always true. But obviously, you've made a great bet there and the company has continued to accrue value. So I think you're doing just fine, but pretty cool. All right. I always ask the same three questions to wrap up, and then you'll get to ask me one question to finish this up. The first is, what is the most important book that you've ever read?

Well, good question. I'm unprepared. To be honest, the last 10 years, I think the most enjoyable book I read, maybe the last 15 years, was Principles by Ray Dalio. But back then, it wasn't even published. It was a simple PDF with 50-60 pages, which was actually much more brutal and honest compared to a book that was written with 300 or 400 pages. right on the book is so pure polish that you know i didn't really recognize the initial pdfs that i read and enjoyed the pdf i could not agree more the pdf is way better it's way shorter it's much more direct uh and frankly much more valuable so uh that's a great uh insight but i think the pdf people could still get uh if not then you gotta go read the book and suffer through 400 pages rather than 50 or 60 but i couldn't agree more there second question is around sleep schedule So I used to sleep five or six hours, you know, kind of badge of honor of not sleeping a lot.

But my friends over at Eight Sleep sent me a kind of thermoregulated bed. So I basically could turn it super cold. Now I sleep like eight or nine hours. It completely changed the way that I thought about sleep. What's your sleep schedule and how has that evolved over time as the business has gotten larger? To me also, I used to be the same, right? I used to sleep five, six hours, you know, because, you know, I spend all the time, you know, on travel as well. and on external meetings.

But then during COVID, I completely switched to eight hours. So I effectively go to bed earlier. I get up earlier at the training. And then similar to you, probably cold temperature in the room. So eight hours for me is optimal. Amazing.

You said you go to bed early. What time do you usually try to get to sleep by? Well, usually 10.30. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So early by tech standards, but normal by the rest of the world's standards. Third question is aliens. Are you a believer or a non-believer? I think probabilistically a believer. I think most likely given the whole universe, I mean, billions of stars out there, the probability of some kind of natural connections

between molecules to enable creation of DNK over time, it's very probable. So I am a believer. Yeah. I tend to agree with you that it's more likely than not, which is frankly, all we could ask for uh the bigger question i guess is just like will we come in contact with them during my or your lifetime but uh that i'm less confident of right they're out there but maybe too far away for us um you could ask me one question to uh to wrap us up here what uh one question you have for me or what do you enjoy the most in your podcast yeah i mean look it's this what do you enjoy you know when you speak with people what do you enjoy the most. It's frankly, you know, you spend all day thinking about a very specific vertical in

the world, right? You talked earlier about you're not focused on US technology or Asia technology firms or whatever you're focused on. How do we build the best software, become the best kind of financial services application for our users, be number one, and then make sure that the economics of the kind of P&L stay number one as well. And so it's fascinating that, you know, you and I can talk and I can basically glean a lot of the information that you spend all day thinking about. And so when you do that over and over and over again across different verticals, you find that you just learn a lot, right? And so, you know, easy learning already just off the top of my head was when you were talking about the fact that the crypto accounts kind of have seen

2x the inflows to the stock accounts, right? I think that most people would think that, oh, the stock market is much larger, the stock market is more likely to kind of have folks interested. But given the user base that you have, and kind of the year that we saw over the last 12 months, it's just fascinating to me how popular crypto has gotten so quickly. And so it's little things like that, which, you know, not groundbreaking on their own. But when you can start to piece that together through many conversations, you start to just get a more nuanced, kind of detailed version of the world, which I think, you know, makes you better investor or makes you much kind of just more well-rounded as well.

Yeah, it makes sense. All right. Where can we send people to find you on the internet or learn more about Revolut? You have a Twitter account? Yeah, at mstoronski. And obviously the website, revolut.com. All right, so revolut.com

or your Twitter account are the two best places. Yep. Awesome. Well, listen, Nick, thank you so much for taking the time to do this and we'll definitely have to do it again in the future. Thank you. See you.