The Pomp Podcast - #639 Investing In Fine Wine with Anthony Zhang

Episode Date: August 22, 2021

Anthony Zhang is the founder and CEO of VinoVest, an alternative asset platform focused on fine wine. In this conversation, we discuss alternative assets, portfolio construction, wine as an asset class, how VinoVest works, and the investment case for wine.  ======================= Do you have a business idea you’ve been dreaming about, but don’t know how to actually start building it? Use Bubble’s drag-and-drop tool to develop custom, interactive, multi-user web apps in hours. Go to Bubble.io to build, launch, and scale real ideas and products without engineers or code! Bubble is the go-to no-code platform for over 1 million builders, and has recently closed a $100M funding round to continue supporting startups like yours, from MVP to IPO. Go to Bubble.io/pomp and the first 500 listeners will get their first month free on any of Bubble’s paid plans.  ======================= Okcoin is one of the most popular licensed exchanges. Okcoin is the first to bring new cryptos to market, offering some of the lowest fees in the industry, an easy to use app, and Earn feature--you got to check out their brand new, beautifully designed app! And as of today, they also became the first US exchange to list NEAR. It’s easier than ever to sign up, buy and trade crypto in just 2 minutes on Okcoin with credit & debit cards or just link your bank account to the best new crypto assets. So get started, and go to okcoin.com/pomp =======================

what's up everyone this is anthony pompliano most of you know me as pomp you're listening to the pomp podcast simply the best podcast out there now let's kick this thing off anthony zhang is the founder and ceo of vino vest an alternative asset platform focused on fine wine in this conversation we discuss alternative assets portfolio construction wine as an asset class how vino vest works and the investment case for wine i really enjoyed this conversation with Anthony and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. First up is Bubble. Do you have a business idea you've been dreaming about but don't know how to actually start building it? Use Bubble's drag and drop tool to develop custom

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Again, OKCoin, one of the most popular licensed exchanges. Go check them out today at OKCoin.com slash POMP. Again, OKCoin.com slash POMP. All right, let's get this episode with Anthony. I hope you guys enjoy this one. Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. All right, guys. Bang, bang. Got my friend Anthony here with me. Thank you so much for doing this. Absolutely, Pomp. It's a pleasure and good to reconnect again.

Absolutely. And, you know, obviously, and Anthony means that your parents are just as smart as my parents. That's a great name that they gave you there. Exactly. That's kind of the first way where we've wanted over an excellent name, right?

For sure. So you're working on a investing platform that focuses specifically on wine. And I'm fascinated by this. We have somebody who I think we both deeply respect in common, a gentleman named Dustin Wilson, who is a master sommelier and was the wine director at Eleven Madison Park, has worked at a number of other great restaurants, was featured in the documentary

Psalm, which I enjoyed watching, along with what I think are hundreds of thousands or millions of other people. But let's start with just wine before we kind of get to Dustin, what I'll call the the sommelier part of the industry why is wine interesting as an investment class at all why do people buy it and put it in their portfolio yeah i think that's kind of the best question to start with it's like why the hell do people even want to invest in wine and i think it goes back to just simple supply and demand right a winery they can only produce say x amount of wine each year And as the years go on, as the wine ages, gets better, it becomes more desirable. People want to drink aged wine.

But because of natural consumption, there's just less and less of it as the years go on. So you have this fixed supply, even diminishing supply asset, coupled with growing demand. And that's how you get really long-term and steady price appreciation in this asset class. Got it. And then my understanding is that wine has actually outperformed stocks over really long periods of time. Is that accurate? Or how do you kind of think about the historical performance of this asset class versus other types of assets? Yeah, that was really my light bulb moment. I'm like, wow, I really got to look into this. I saw a headline saying that wine has outperformed

global equities, not just past five years, 10 years. It's been for decades, two, three decades. and I think with that I was like why are more people not even knowing that a you can invest in wine and b how do I get in on this so that was kind of my user journey and it was it was really tough realizing that oh you actually need to be pretty wealthy to even get access to the right wine so even know which ones to buy and then if you don't have a wine cellar it you got to figure out all the logistics there right and I was like there's got to be an easier way I'm spending hours and hours and haven't even bought a single bottle of wine yet. And that's really how I started Vinovest. Yeah. So what's so fascinating about it is when I heard that you were doing this,

I was like, why can't I just go to the store and buy a bottle? And is it just like, oh, whoever holds their bottle for the longest before they open it, it ends up being valuable, right? How do you think of time as a proxy for value? But it's actually not just time, obviously, right? There's all kinds of different variables that go into this. And so how much of this do think is kind of narrative driven like there's a special type of um you know winemaker from a special region that was done in a special year or special uh kind of vintage and then you put all those uh characteristics together and that ultimately leads to value or is it something more simplistic that you can kind of point to one thing um that ends up driving the value of one

bottle of wine over a different one so i think there are going to be x factors like you mentioned I'm like, Oh, very, very special year, right? Like 2020, no one's going to forget this year and wine produced in 2020 is going to have that sort of X factor when people down the line are looking to drink it, you know, maybe at the 10 year mark or 20 year mark, you're going to see increases in value because that is when people deem that the wine is ready to drink. Um, so things like that, or things like say, uh, LeBron posting a photo of a bottle of wine that he's enjoy the price spikes immediately on the secondary market. So you have catalysts that are a little bit hard to predict like that. And then you also have the basic fundamentals

that drive your annualized supply, predicted consumption demand, as well as volatility over a long period of time, looking at previous vintages as comps. Got it. And so when people are allocating to this, is there like a rule of thumb or as you've talked to more and more people who have wine allocations. Is this a 1% type thing? Are there people who have 50% of their net worth in wine? Like where kind of do people fall in terms of portfolio construction and how wine fits into it? Yeah, I think it's really up to the individual, but looking at what else you're owning, right? If you're owning other very high volatility, high return assets, you want to be able to counter that volatility in your portfolio with something that is a little bit more stable.

And wine as an asset class has proven to have about a third of the volatility of global equities. And it's something that has a maturity date, right? If you want to hold wine as an asset for 10 years versus five years, Vinovest would be able to pick out completely different sets of wines that can help you achieve that goal. So in a way, it's kind of like a bond, but a little bit sexier. Got it. And then I got to ask, traditionally, when people go and they buy wine, as an investment some portion of it has to get drank at you know rather than hell right like at some point somebody's like oh man you know yeah i know i bought this and i wanted it as an

investment but like you know what it just looks like a great bottle of wine i got to try it like is there any stats or kind of anecdotal evidence you have that that happens yeah it's a little bit of a double-edged sword right because like you can't drink it and someone's gonna drink it at the end of the day to be able to realize that return um and with vino vest since we're not like fractionalizing or securitizing the asset you actually can do that so say you know you're celebrating anniversary or you know uh anything special we can actually ship that wine to you you can enjoy it of course you're literally drinking your profits away but um you know that's kind of part of the fun of it yeah it's it's so fascinating um all right tell me about vinovest and kind of

what you all are building because i think that uh you've highlighted there's this uh really big educational gap and also just time and energy that's needed to become somewhat of a connoisseur of wine, both from just like what is good wine, what is not good wine, but then also there's the layer of the investment strategy on top of it. So what are you all building and how does it work? Yeah. So not everybody is a wine connoisseur like you are. So we've got to be able to start with someone who knows absolutely nothing about wine or wine investing. So that's why we built our model to be a managed portfolio, you just type in things like, hey, this is how long I want to hold this investment. This is my risk appetite. And then also, this is how much I want

to invest. And based on those factors, the VNOS algorithm will actually be able to source, store, and then give you price alerts and rebalance your portfolio as time goes on. So we're really acting as an active robo-advisor to really be an on-ramp for a beginner before they feel confident enough making their own decisions in the future. Got it. And so when you start thinking through from a user experience standpoint, I basically come onto the platform, I create an account. And then what does the average user do? Is it kind of educational first? Do I just go and I start to try to select my own line or I'm actually just putting in inputs or criteria of what I'm looking for? And then I'm really relying on the recommendation algorithm to tell me what I should

fire when I shouldn't buy? I would say about 95% of our customers come in with that latter perspective. They're like, hey, this sounds interesting. I'd like to get a little bit of exposure, dip my toe in. Let's let VinoVest pick for me first. And then throughout the course of next months or years, we're feeding you content. Our research team is creating analysis and helping you learn more about, oh, why is this wine region doing better than the other? Or why is this year particularly interesting from an investment standpoint and people start to be able to get equipped with that knowledge and feel more confident on making their own investment in trading decisions so now we're seeing more and more of our earlier and more seasoned users

shift to becoming wanting wanting some more active active trading yeah and so what's happening in the background obviously i know dustin is uh is involved somewhat but uh explain kind of what's happening here when i'm putting in that criteria and you're telling me okay this is a wine that fits that uh that thing that you're looking for uh is dustin love him to death but is he the one picking the wine is there a software here are there 10 or 12 people like how does it work on the back end yeah so thankfully most of it is automated um so just like stocks there are your equivalent of like blue chip super steady apples and amazons of the world types of wines and these going to be wines that are you know from bordeaux from burgundy really well established regions and

those are kind of the the backbone or kind of the safe assets to invest in but if you wanted to go super aggressive there's also your equivalent of emerging market wines or stocks of newer wine makers newer wine regions that have a little bit more speculation built into it so based on your preferences we'll get you the types of wines that fit those practices we're buying actual full bottles in case of wine that you own and then we'll store them in our network of professional wine storage facilities where they are first checked and inspected for condition authenticity provenance and then also stored and fully insured in these vaults and in that it's a fully digital experience for the user you don't need to worry about your wine where to store it anything like

that and then on our dashboard we give you live pricing knowing your mark to market as well as content, as well as access to our portfolio advisory team to be able to review your portfolios on scheduled times too. Got it. And so when you think through kind of the security and storage, how much risk is there for an individual to do that themselves, right? Everyone's seen the crazy photos. The one that immediately jumps to mind is one of the Koch brothers has got this like absolute monstrosity in their basement, right? Oh my God. Yeah. I've seen that photo. Right. I mean, it's insane how crazy it is. So like, I see that. And then I obviously see like the big warehouses that are at a winery or something. The average person's like,

hey, I got a couple of a rack on the wall, right? It is kind of all I have. Is it essential from an investment standpoint to have that storage and security, or can people do this at home as well? So that's really the biggest risk in my mind of this asset class is sourcing the right asset and then also protecting it because it's not like something like gold or stocks where it doesn't really matter who you got it from. Wine is something that actually can be damaged and can turn to vinegar very, very easily if you don't store it correctly. So that's really the biggest thing that I believe Vinovest is de-risking is completely

handling that storage component and then also giving you a level of security with our insurance policy to in case there's anything that happens to that bottle you still are able to recoup the value of your investment which um in an industry where there's really no regulation around that we want to be able to hold ourselves to a little bit of a higher standard almost self-regulate yeah and then uh obviously uh there's plenty of people who have uh become familiar with the wine industry, they've watched something like maybe, is it Corked or Uncorked? I think it's the name of the documentary where basically there's a guy who's creating fake high-end wine. And for those that haven't watched it, they should go watch the documentary and kind of see how

it's happening. But how do you ensure that the wine that is purchased at this high end of the market is actually authentic and kind of what somebody thinks they're buying? Yeah, I mean, that is, I think, a huge problem in any sort of luxury or secondary market, right? Whenever there is demand that's more than supply, people are going to make fakes, fake handbags, watches, you know, even scanning fake crypto, right? It's everywhere. And we only buy either direct from the source or from a professional sort of like wine merchant that we've already vetted and sourced. And the good thing is that we can track also where that wine has been and lived before it's gotten to us. You know, if it's at one of the warehouses, we want to know from the warehouse who had that wine before, you know, obviously, hopefully it's the winery. So we can trace it all the way back to the right source. Um, and if we're unable to, we won't buy the wine at all. Got it. And then in terms of the, uh, wine, it feels like the length of time is really important.

Is there any premium that is put for wine that's been held by a certain person? So we talked about one of the Koch brothers earlier. Is there a premium that actually gets assigned because somebody knows that this individual actually bought wine, held this at some point, or it was in their wine cellar? I could imagine Thomas Jefferson, I actually think, is one of them where there's a wine bottle out there from Thomas Jefferson. But OK, that makes sense. But more modern folks, is there any sort of premium assigned for that?

There is a premium assigned to the source of the seller, who that seller is, as well as where it is. So, for example, if you're buying a rare champagne, it would be most ideal if you're buying wine that's already housed in champagne, has yet to leave the winery, and you're buying it direct from the winery. Versus the same champagne bottle, maybe it's in some collector in California's cellar, that champagne bottle is already moved halfway around the world. there's a little bit of risk involved in that because we don't know how the shipping was was a temperature control did it lay on a cargo dock for 30 days before even entering the us so all of those are factors that we take into account when we're pricing and that's why we have a distributed network of storage facilities all of them are located next to the major wine growing regions whether it be they want a napa or one in bordeaux in france and we keep the wine as close

to the source as possible because of that sort of seller premium that you're mentioning yeah it's fascinating what's been the most difficult part about building this so far in terms of the platform uh and the technology side i think for us it's really taking an industry that is so huge and old and slow moving and being able to build the sort of rails to turn offline to online. A funny story is one of our major warehouses, they're storing billions of dollars worth of wine, and they didn't have a functioning website. And I only found them through industry connections. And here you have a huge, really valuable place. And how can we get people like that to be able to go online with us and be able to be with our workflows? So that's been

a pretty interesting challenge for us to be able to go through. And we're still a long ways to where we want to be but we're starting to make some strides yeah and then how much of this is uh there's just some like core uh core wines that everyone knows will kind of appreciate every time so i think of it as like the s&p 500 right if you invest dollar cost average over a long period of time you're pretty much uh good to go um is that true in wine as well as where there's just like some kind of you know uh some blue chips if you will uh that everyone tends to think uh they might wouldn't that be the best performer, but you're not going to lose money, uh, over long periods of time? Yeah, there's absolutely your equivalent of blue chips. So these would be kind of the

first growth Bordeaux. So like Chateau Lafite, Chateau Mouton, um, in the United States wines like Screaming Eagle or Harlan or Opus One. These are ones that have been producing incredible wines for decades. You can look at the previous performance and price history and see a very steady and positive correlation with age. And those are ones that are pretty hard to go down in value unless you really mess up the storage component. So I think that's one of the more attractive things about wine is it has very low drawdowns and it's hard for you to lose your principle. Absolutely. And one of the things when I was getting ready for this conversation, I was actually pretty impressed with is you all have created a index yourself. This like Vito

VinoVest 100, I think it is. And so explain a little bit about what this is, how it's calculated and then why you all created your own index to try to track the kind of the high-end wine market. Yeah. So the VinoVest 100 is an index that tracks pricing for what we believe as the top 100 wines in the world. And we are tracking not only just the most recent vintage, but the prices of the last 15 years to be able to give you a broader sense of what that winery is capable of. And the main reason is because there is very little familiarity of the wine asset class. And I think the easiest way to educate people is to build bridges with things that they already understand.

So people already know, oh, S&P 500, most valuable 500 companies in the world. VinoVest 100, they can kind of make that sort of jump in their minds and be like, oh, this is kind of the equivalent of the S&P. And for us, establishing that sort of transparency and trust and being able to have that for the customer as something that they're familiar with, I think is really important for really paving the way in this industry. Yeah, and I guess as part of this, you can really start to break down not only the different regions, not only different time periods, but you can also start to break down the wine

market in general, the higher end versus the lower end, and start to track financial performance. What's blown me away is when you look through this, I think that you guys are basically tracking 12 different fine wine markets around the world. And some of these are actually pretty insane from a return perspective. So in Q2, there was two separate regions that returned over 8%, from what I understand. And then some of these reports are actually even highlighting the fact that there was a winning bid in Hong Kong dollars of 49 million for a couple of bottles of wine, like less than 50 bottles of wine for 49 million bucks. I mean, this is crazy stuff that's going on here. Yeah. I mean, with those auctions, I think it's very similar to art or kind of

these really rare collectibles where there's only a few in the world, right? And we're seeing kind of the wealthy spending more and more on things especially with things that are irreplaceable right like for example a wine from 1945 you know world war ii there's probably less than 10 in the world and when you're rich and have that much money like what do you want to do you want to you want to get what other people can't have um and with the performance of wine i think especially with these last few years pandemic it's really shown us that through good times bad times people are still going to be drinking and um really being able to enjoy life and we've seen that kind of pattern really kind of bleed into the wine market a little bit too with the

consumption spending for sure and then i can't let you go without asking you uh i saw that you all started to accept bitcoin and cryptocurrencies as well so what uh what kind of went into that decision yeah i mean with uh my co-founder and i working at block folio for the last few years Before VinoVest, we're big believers in being able to democratize access to not only just this asset class, but the way that people get into this asset class. So, you know, whether it be fiat, whether it be mailing a check, whether it be using Doge or Bitcoin or Bitcoin Cash, like, I don't care. We want to just make it easy for people. So that's why we decided to start accepting crypto payments. Yeah, it makes sense. Have people been paying with it or not yet? Yeah, we've done a few million dollars worth of turnover in the last few months just from our crypto payment gateway alone.

So we've definitely seen some great overlap and interest in people who want to just diversify a little bit because you think about it, it's kind of the perfect match, right? Crypto is like probably the highest volatility, most exciting asset class that people can invest in. And then you have wine, which is just really, really steady, almost boring in terms of its return potential. But it's also kind of cool because no one else is doing it. Yeah. What is, for you, the kind of the most personally satisfying part of this whole thing as you've been building it? So I think for me, I've always just had this interest in wine. I grew up in Beijing, in Hong Kong, at a time where red wine, especially from France, was getting huge.

So I'd always remember growing up, you know, just seeing these crazy bottles being opened. And when you go into a friend's house, how much you like that friend is kind of determining how much you're spending on the bottle. And just from a cultural significance level, it's been interesting to me to learn more about that. And then layering on the kind of financialization or building here with VinoVest, it's really married to my great passions and a lot of fun to learn about and work on. Yeah. And then in terms of what the plan is moving forward, obviously, you want to continue to build up a platform. What form does that take? What do you think VinoVest grows into or what are you guys working on? So for us, it's really about making it easier than ever for different types of people to come in. So today we have a robo-advisor product. It's really easy as an on-ramp for someone who knows

nothing about wine investing to get in and just be able to easily deploy some capital. But we eventually want to have people be able to make their own trading decisions. Have people be able to not only bet on wines that are already out, but say they love this producer and they want to be able to bet on future harvest, you want to create the liquidity and the mechanism to be able to bet and create derivatives markets for wine, I think is the next step for us and really financializing, globalizing, and making it easy and easier for both winery partners, as well as customers to be able to capture some of the value that's going on here.

Got it. And then in terms of actually company building, how many employees do you have, capital raise? What metrics can you share with us in terms of how it's going so far? Yeah, so we founded in late 2019. So we're almost two years old today. Raised seed in Series A around totaling around $16 million. And now we've got thousands of investors around the world. We're just about to hit our 30th employee.

So it's been really exciting to be able to hire people from all around the world too. And, you know, we want to be able to manage billions of dollars in assets one day. Yeah, it feels like businesses that got started at the end of 2019 or kind of in 2019 and then ran smack, you know, into the middle of the pandemic. One of two things happened. Either they absolutely got torpedoed and it was over before it ever got started. or businesses like yourself were able to really benefit from the tailwind of the digital economy and investing in the macro economy. Is that how you see it? There has been that tailwind of more and more people interested in investing? Absolutely. We launched our product the last week of February of 2020. If you can remember what happened there, a massive market crash.

And me and my co-founder looked at each other like, oh my God, is this the worst time ever to launch an investing app? And then we looked at the price of wine and it had a negative correlation. So wine prices were actually up. We're like, oh my God, what's going on here? And it's really, I think, just served as a tailwind, especially with the whole Robinhood and Wall Street bets moving. It's really made it clear that anybody and everybody can be and will be an investor.

And that sort of curiosity extends outside of just the stock market. people are going into all sorts of crazy things and wine is something that i think has been a little bit of like a mystery right like it's always like someone's rich uncle that you know maybe has done this and it's made a lot of money but uh we want to make it for everybody and i think when you're looking at macro tailwinds with higher and higher inflation kind of the turn to want to go to hard assets as hedges against that inflation uh we we've got some great tailwinds that can help our business and help the performance of the asset class as well. Absolutely. I'm a big fan. I think it's kind of a no-brainer. And then the fact that you can

convince Dustin, I like to give Dustin a hard time, but he's by far the person who knows the absolute most about wine that I know. So if he's in, I'm in. Where can we send people to find you or Vino Vesta on the internet? Where are the best places to send folks? So my email is anthony.vinovesta.co. Definitely welcome any sort of questions, direct communication there and you can find us at veto best.co encourage you to check it out and uh see if this is right for you awesome before i let you go ask everyone the same three questions and then you'll get to ask me one uh the first question is what is the most important book that you've ever read so most important book it's got to be zero to one so um i took the teal fellowship

a few years ago dropped out and that was the first thing that they sent me in the mail and really helps me build confidence in the business that i was building at the time and being able to kind of validate that as a reason to be able to believe in myself as an entrepreneur second question is sleep schedule uh our friends over at eight sleep uh have this thermoregulated bed that i've been sleeping on it's like super cold and just one i don't know what the science is i'm not a scientist when i sleep on the cold bed i'm knocked out much better sleep what's your sleep schedule like these days so for me i'm the same way except for my fiance is completely the opposite so we've got this uh sort of halfway cold halfway hot and maybe we switched the middle of the night

situation still trying to figure it out but um i'm lucky that i'm out like a rock every single night because i love it that's the best way to be it's just bam cold i'm gone see ya yes the third question a little bit more fun aliens are you a believer or a non-believer absolutely we're definitely not the smartest people out here there's people that are way smarter i don't even know if we can categorize them as people but um looking at what we know the human race there's got to be something better out there so that's one unbeliever yeah it feels like uh uh if we are it then that's kind of a depressing view of the world and of the galaxy right like there of course there's got to be things out there come on like

that's the only exciting way to do it exactly i mean i like my dog more than most humans so that's just something there's got to be aliens out there what uh what one question do you have for me to uh to finish up i would say what's your favorite food and wine pairing what is your sort of like ideal last meal pair with some nice wine that dustin picked what's it gonna be so i'm gonna cheat here um because uh i if i ever want anything that is uh high end then i just literally text dustin and say hey what should i do so i'm definitely cheating on uh on that front but there is a bottle of wine that i will take credit for i found at a uh liquor store in new york city and i showed it to dustin and he said i'd never seen that before and so i felt like oh i like you

know i found something i've never seen before but as you would expect it's not because it's overly nice because it's so ridiculous and it's a uh um it is a brand called cooper and thief and what they basically do is they put the wine uh in i want to say if i remember correctly bourbon barrels and so when you drink the wine it has like a kind of like a smoky uh almost like bourbon-y type uh taste to it i'm sitting here pretending like i know anything about how to describe the various tastes whatever but uh that one every time i see it i always say look i gotta get it the problem is uh it has a very very high alcohol uh content and so like one maybe two glasses and it's game over like you'll just be hammered so you got to be careful with that with cooper thief all right

i love it i mean i don't see much of the problem sounds pretty efficient to me if you're out after a couple glasses exactly all right so we're going to send people anthony at vino vest.co they want to reach out to you or vinovest.co is the website people can go check it out there any last words for folks or any uh any final pitch as to why they should go and use the platform yeah i think uh if you like wine if you don't like wine look at the numbers right it's it's low volatility low correlations to the market even if you don't drink at all or don't care about right or what it's something that i think you should consider if you have past around I think that you may be on to something there, my friend. Thank you so much for doing this.

We'll definitely do it again in the future. Yeah, absolutely. Take care.