The Pomp Podcast - #643 Monetizing Music On-Chain with Justin Blau

Episode Date: August 26, 2021

Justin Blau, who is best known as 3LAU, is a DJ and electronic dance music producer. He has also been an early advocate for Bitcoin and digital art as well. Today is he revealing a new company, Royal, which he has cofounded.   In this conversation, we discuss NFTs, 3LAU’s success in the industry, how music economics are coming on-chain, what Royal does, and how he anticipates this evolving over time. ======================= Polymarket is the world’s leading information markets platform where you can trade on the most pressing global questions and see unbiased, real-time data on what the market thinks will happen – all on the blockchain. For a limited time, sign up with referral code “Pomp” to get your first trade reimbursed up to $100. Click on the link to get started: polymarket.co/pomppod ======================= Cosmos is building the Internet of Blockchains, marking a new era of interoperability, scalability, and usability. The free flow of assets and data between blockchains with bridges to Ethereum and Bitcoin will unleash the potential of DeFi, NFTs, and much more. Dive into Cosmos at cosmos.network/pomp  ======================= Matrixport, Asia’s fastest growing digital asset platform with $10 billion in assets under management and custody, it offers one-stop crypto financial solutions including fixed income, DeFi in 1-click, structured products, Cactus Custody™, spot OTC as well as lending. You can earn from high single digit with fixed income to high double digit yield with their Dual Currency Product. If you hold crypto and look for yield, this is the app you don’t wanna miss out. Go download the Matrixport App and enjoy a welcome offer of 30% APY on USDC here: https://invest.matrixport.com/en

what's up everyone this is anthony pompliano most of you know me as pomp you're listening to the pomp podcast simply the best podcast out there now let's kick this thing off justin blau who's best known as blau is a dj and electronic dance music producer he has been an early advocate for bitcoin and digital art as well today he is revealing a new company royal which he has also co-founded. In this conversation, we discuss NFTs, Blau's success in the industry, how music economics are coming on chain, what Royal does, and how he anticipates this evolving over time. I really enjoyed this conversation with Justin, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. First up is

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All right, let's get into this episode with Justin. I hope you guys enjoy this one. Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. All right, guys. Bang, bang.

I've got Justin here with me. Thanks so much for doing this, man. Dude, pleasure to be here as always. Absolutely. Everyone knows you as Blau, so I'm going to call you Justin, but for those that don't know, you've got two names similar to me. Yeah, exactly. I mean, everyone probably calls you Pomp more than Anthony, right?

Like on average, it's probably Pomp. Of course. That's the only way that it could be. Let's talk about your journey in Bitcoin, Ethereum, the crypto world. I feel like you knew nothing. And then you became a star, like overnight. So walk us through for those that didn't listen to our first podcast episode, like how did all this happen? I think that's the potential for everyone listening to by the way, if you dive in and you dive hard enough, you'll figure it out pretty quickly. But I started in 2014. You know,

just knowing a little bit about Bitcoin, the Winklevoss twins actually were the ones to introduced me to BTC at the time. And I was just fascinated by frictionless value transfer anywhere in the world, 24-7 without a central counterparty or bank. That was fascinating to me as someone who studied finance. And as Ethereum started to grow and that ecosystem started to grow, the potential of decentralized applications and how that might affect the entertainment business was super fascinating to me. So from 2014 to 2017, I was more of just like a passive Bitcoin holder. And then in 2017, I just dove headfirst into the Ethereum ecosystem and really started learning about all the ways, you know, different protocols might affect the entertainment world. Fast forward

to, um, in 2018, I was actually experimenting with NFTs on, or NFTs and like digital collectibles on, you know, combo of Ethereum and Stellar Lumens, just experimenting with how that might apply to live music. And it was a little bit too early at the time in 2018, but I always kind of was fascinated by it so in 2020 when nfts re-emerged and started manifesting as art i was really focused on well how might this type you know how might non-fungible tokens apply to music and that's when i started making audio visual art um and between i guess it would have been august of last year august of 2020 and august of this year um we did my my myself and my art director combined have done over 20 million in sales of nfts and are just extremely excited

about the future of how we can utilize these assets and create more meaning in ownership of them. How crazy is it for you to think about selling $20 million for these NFTs? If somebody told me that a year ago, I definitely wouldn't have believed them. And it's just fascinating how the crypto community gets behind and supports new innovative ideas and wants to push boundaries. Just the community itself is so powerful and they put money where their mouths are. And I think that's really incredible. So obviously, all of that experience led you to think more about this, test more things. You're now starting a business. Talk to me a little bit about what business you're starting, who you're starting it with, and kind of what's

the idea? Absolutely. So I had done all these sales, particularly for music NFTs. And at the time, they were really just collectible audio files that had authenticated signatures, right? an NFT is basically just a digital certificate of authenticity that says you own one of edition number three of 100 of this song, let's call it, right? And that's interesting. But I wanted to take it a step further. Number one, how do you give ownership of these assets more meaning than just certification? Part one. And part two, how do you actually create meaning surrounding that ownership where a fan or a collector owns a piece of the song itself? And that was always a question that I asked myself, even when I started issuing NFTs, like that was the future. Um, but of course

doing that requires a team, a lot of complicated experience, you know, a lot of complicated problems that needed to be fixed by a team of experienced people. And certainly not something that I could, could figure out on my own. So I was lucky enough to call one of my best friends from college, uh, my friend JD Ross, who started another company that's currently publicly traded called Open Door. And I said, JD, I want my fans to own a piece of my music via NFT ecosystems, crypto ecosystems. Would you want to build that company with me? And a week later, he was like, yep, I'm on board. That sounds freaking awesome. Letting fans invest in music is such a powerful concept because fans themselves are the reason why music is distributed and successful. You can

market music as much as you want. But in today's day, the algorithm and how much fans consume a song actually influences how successful that song becomes. So why not let those fans and other listeners participate in the upside of a song? And that was kind of what the concept that breeded Royal, which is the new company that we're starting, JD and myself, we just kind of, we've been building in stealth for about three months, but we just felt, you know, filled a $16 million seed round from Paradigm, Founders Fund, Atomic, and yourself, lucky to have you involved. And, um, we're just really excited to launch and we haven't told anybody about it until, until now. And it's just exciting because we've been working on it for three,

four months, really, really hardcore. We've, we have 10 employees now and just grinding away. Explain how this is going to work, at least kind of in the initial version, right? So this whole idea of like musicians getting their fans to invest in the music, do they get economic upside in it? What is kind of the technical underpinnings, whatever you can share kind of at the initial stages right now? How does it work? Yeah, no. And your listeners will be familiar with a lot of these concepts. So it's really great to kind of give some specifics. Imagine you have 100 editions of a song, 100 official editions, and each of those editions represents about 50 basis points in the master recording ownership of the song, right? So a fan or an artist can split

ownership of a song with multiple fans. That's not quite fractionalizing the song. It's actually just treating each fan as a collaborator in the song, theoretically, is how it's kind of structured, where there's an actual legal agreement on-chain that says this NFT is entitled to 50 basis points of all revenue associated with the master recording of this song. Now, we have to build up smart contract architecture to achieve that and actually distribute the cash flows from the off-chain world to the on-chain world. And this can only be done today compliantly with finished music which is a whole other part of the conversation that we can have um you can't like raise money for the next album um via this architecture that becomes a little bit more

complicated um but but that's the that's the basic principle where if there's a song that exists um you can own a collectible edition of it and participate in the upside should that song become more successful and oh sorry i was gonna say worth mentioning you know as a strong straight as a song streams more and more spotify and apple music and all these different you know streaming providers do pay out quite substantially. There's kind of this misperception in the public narrative that streaming services don't pay artists. It's actually that like middlemen take a large percentage of that income. But if an artist does own a larger percentage of their rights, it has become 50x more profitable in 2021 as compared to 2016. And I can personally

attest to that. So one of the things that's so fascinating to me about this is you have a trend in music and entertainment in general of artists owning equity, getting higher percentages, potentially even being independent and trying to get out of their contracts. We've also seen artists who have basically taken their library and sold those off for kind of upfront cash. And it just feels like there's much more sophistication and professionalism and kind of access to capital markets for artists. What you're really trying to do here is take it a step further and say, hey, there's this

new technology that we could leverage. And rather than go to wall street or other wealthy individuals, let's just go straight to the fans and let's align. Exactly. Exactly. A hundred percent right now, all the activity that's happening in music and catalog sales and, you know, all these things that are happening off chain, they're all, you know, mostly private equity hedge fund wall street that are investing in these, in streams and streaming revenue,

because it's supposedly inflation protected revenue. There's a lot of like really great statistics about how streaming economy is growing just out so substantially even beyond music like this applies to youtubers and gamers and all types of things right but just you know unlike unlike equities you know it's pretty difficult for a regular person to invest in their favorite music like there's no like real gateway for them to do that and so by democratizing that access we believe that will align fans incentives with artists and push fans to actually promote that music even more should they actually be stakeholders in it, right? And we've seen this apply, you know, and I hate to say it, but like

things like Dogecoin, where, you know, you just have a community surrounding a meme that might not do anything at all, but community ownership is just a really powerful thing. And why not give real ownership to the people that are actually listening? And to me, that was something that was so obvious. And it's funny, I tweeted about it a couple of times over the past couple of months and all the tweets that talked about, you know, giving NFT holders real ownership in the rights of the music. And I said that a couple of times on Twitter, those have been my most viral tweets I've ever tweeted in my entire Twitter career. So there's clear demand from it, from the marketplace. There's a lot of people that want to own music as an asset class, the same way you

can own, you know, sneakers as an asset class or baseball cards as an, you know, graded baseball cards or Pokemon cards, right? We just haven't had access, the community, the broader community hasn't been able to invest in music it's not that the demand isn't there it's that there's no mechanism for it so let's say that i come in and i buy um you know one of these 100 songs um and that gives me 50 basis points of the revenue that comes from the song right am i then able to enjoy the cash flow from that asset ownership and then at some point in the future i can actually turn and sell it to a different fan and it's just a traditional tradable asset exactly like and and the specifics of payouts are something that we're still like very focused on so

I don't want to commit to like a specific structure of when payouts happen. And it all depends on the artist and what their separate structures are. Right. But theoretically, yes, you know, you can buy this asset at the end of every month. There's revenues collected from all the different streaming services. You technically own a percentage of that by contract, by legal contract. Right. And you receive a, you know, a cash flow from all those other streaming services. And if you decide that you want to sell that asset in a month or two months, you would collect on that and then sell it at whatever the market price is. Of course, depending on how successful that artist is or that song is, or as we've seen with CryptoPunks and Bored Apes and all these

other NFTs that don't have cash flows, there's other emotional value associated with owning an exclusive digital asset. In our case, we're not even calling these things NFTs. We're actually calling them LDAs or limited digital assets because the architecture surrounding the smart contracts is quite a bit more complex than just a minting contract and a token ID. There's a lot of other things happening. We want some of these assets to include consumables. So let's say you buy one of 100 official editions of a song that might entitle you to listening to unreleased music from that artist, or it might entitle you to one all access pass a year while you hold that asset, right? There might be vesting function. There's all these things that we can add and

features that we can add to these assets. But in reality, it starts out with a simple cash flow because it's something that people understand. Then there's an infinite number of things we can build on top of that. Whenever there's disruption in a market, there's both positive and negative ramifications of that. What do you see as the positives here? I mean, who are the people who get disrupted or what are like the negative ramifications of successful? Yeah, I think the positive is that artists have been preyed upon in the music business for decades, myself included. Kanye West famously sold 86% of all the equity in his music for $2.5 million, which of course, today, it's worth hundreds of millions of dollars. And we ideally think that a tool like

this might level the playing field and give artists an alternative capital source, an alternative distribution source than a traditional kind of predatory deal. Who gets disrupted? I think the entire legacy music world will probably suffer a bit if this works. And I think that's a good thing. I think that record labels are still valuable. They provide a lot of services from A&R services to promotional services, but the deal structure is just predatory, right? And so So this will like a tool like this existing will force labels and these existing ecosystems to become more competitive and offer more services. You know, we're not a, you know, Royal is not a distribution service at all. Like we don't do anything beyond, you know, connecting a fan with their artist and making these types of investments possible.

But we aren't going to like go and tell you that we're going to help you find a singer for your next song. Right. Which is something that a record label traditionally does. What could get really interesting, though, is you now start to see these economies of scale where like all these fans are interested in, you know, being a part of this artist's journey. And then maybe there's a connection that's formed between fan and artist. Maybe one of those fans ends up singing on the next song and earns, you know, an even larger piece of the pie for that next record. And so you see a lot of really interesting things happen when you align incentives between the two parties that are responsible for the success of one party. in this case, the artist. Fans just haven't had the ability to gain upside in what they consume in entertainment. So, you know, this is just the beginning of that.

How much of this technology could be used not only for fans to kind of invest in the music, but also just operationally keeping track of who's owed what on the song? So whether it's the producer, a singer, et cetera, could you also leverage it to do some of the, you know, legacy management and just now automate it with this tech? That's a really good question and one that we get a lot. So the actual bookkeeping and account tracking happens kind of before our product exists. So there are a lot of really great distribution services that even I'm plugged into like STEM or United Masters that are doing that kind of royalty tracking now. We're more tracking it specifically in fan ownership as opposed to

between artists and between collaborators. That's definitely a different segment of the market. That being said, as kind of payments start happening on chain more frequently, and as like live streaming data becomes more transparent, we definitely will have the infrastructure to support, you know, on chain payment systems. And we're like building that out for ourselves. But you know, should an artist want to use us for that in the future, it's definitely something we're thinking about. But in the short term, we're more focused on the actual smart contract architecture that bridges this, you know, off off chain cash flows on chain, and you know, how these assets trade in a marketplace on chain. how they are withdrawable from our existing ecosystem, and how we make these assets permissionlessly tradable across things like open marketplaces like OpenSea. We're thinking about all that stuff first. But yes, royalty payments and distribution in the legacy world is an absolute mess. Any new artist that's going to be issuing assets on our platform, we're going to encourage them to use some of these new services that do a way better job tracking than the legacy services that pay out like once every six months

and you have to like beg them, you know, which does happen. So we've talked a lot about music. I'm assuming that this technology is also applicable to things like movies, et cetera. Is that true? Everything, exactly.

And that's the next question everyone asks is, well, once you create this kind of framework for, you know, investing in entertainment, not just music, doesn't it apply to everything? And the answer is yes.

The reason why we're starting with music is, you know, number one, it's my domain of expertise. And so starting there makes the most sense but number two it's also probably the most difficult to conquer um which is why we're we're starting with it because if we can conquer music a lot of the intricacies will apply to a lot of other industries and entertainment so instead of kind of going after something easy we go after something that you know in my opinion musicians are also maybe the most disenfranchised

of all creatives um comparatively in the sense that like youtubers typically do get to you know YouTube obviously takes a cut, but YouTubers do get paid, you know, from their content pretty well. Musicians in particular have, you know, historically just signed these terrible deals that they forcibly give away like 90% or 86% or whatever it is. You've obviously talked to a ton of artists, both informally. And then once you've decided to start the business, what's been the reaction from those artists? It's been, it's been incredible to the point where we're, we're so excited to launch and so excited to let, let this out to the world. We have some pretty high profile musician investors, um, that we'll be announcing later in the future. Real, I should say really

high profile musician investors who just believe in the product and believe that this is the future of music. And it's, it's really encouraging because it's an idea that took, you know, I would say it's an idea that I've been thinking about for four years, but I've only been executing on for four months, right? It's, it's something that I've always thought about, but when it comes down to actually pulling the trigger. It's a difficult one. There's so many variables and so many people we need to hire from legal experts to programming experts to solidity developers. You know, there's an infinite number of things to do, but the timing is now, right? The public has never been more aware of what's happening in the crypto ecosystem than now, both with fungible

currencies and non-fungible tokens. And so, you know, now that you've got people like Jay-Z, changing his profile picture to a CryptoPunk, this is the time to start experimenting, 100%. Talk about the fundraise, why this specific firm that you chose to partner with, and what are you going to do with the money? Great, great question. So I would say all of the money is going to go towards hiring the best people. Building a team of experts surrounding this idea is very hard and we are hiring quickly and excitedly. We brought on some amazing team members. And that I think will really help us execute our vision because it really does take a team to disrupt an entire industry. In terms of partners, I actually, my co-founder JD started

Open Door with Keith and Keith Raboy was the lead at Founders Fund, which is one of our lead investors. And the other investor is Fred Erism with Paradigm. And Keith actually introduced me to Fred four years ago when I started exploring, you know, how ETH might, how the ETH ecosystem might disrupt music. And so all of our investors are friends of both JD and myself and have been for years. And so when we kind of finally decided to go forward with the idea, naturally, we told them first. And because Keith introduced me to Fred, everyone was friends. We wanted to split the round evenly and get this company well capitalized so we could build an incredible product as soon as possible. Talk about building with a friend that you've known for a long time

And you both kind of coming together. Obviously, he had a bunch of success with Opendoor. You've had a bunch of success in the NFT space and then kind of coming together here to build this. Like, what's that like working with him on a daily basis? I'm honestly so thankful that he said yes, because I know that I could not have done it on my own. It's like a marriage.

It's like a proposal, right? Like, I got down on one knee and I was like, JD, I kind of need you to build this crazy idea because I can't do it on my own. And the second he said yes, we were off to the races. But it's been incredible. obviously we've been we've been friends for 11 years i actually played one of my first dj performances ever was his fraternity basement at washington university in st louis um at signu

it was a heaven and hell party and i got paid in a bottle of crown royale whiskey which is partially where the name comes from um yeah so that that's that's a fun fun fact about royal Of course, we're short for royalty as well. But that's kind of the backstory with JD and I. But we've just kept in touch over the years. He's always had an interest in crypto, obviously is familiar with what it takes to disrupt an existing industry, real estate, you know, with crazy legacy legal infrastructure, lots of inefficiencies.

And Opendoor took that head on and really did and ended up succeeding, you know, over the years. And so who, who would be a better partner as someone who's built multiple companies before, um, to help me execute this vision than, than, than a best friend from, from, from college. So I'm really honored that he said yes to working with me and it's been, it's been the best experience for sure. That's awesome. Let's zoom out 20 years from now. What is like the ultimate vision of broil, right? We talked a little bit about kind of what are you initially trying to accomplish? What's the idea today? What do you think this can grow into or kind of what's the dream of what it could be? Yeah, no, I mean, we want to create a world where anyone can buy ownership of music directly from the artists that make that music. And when you own it, you're more incentivized to distribute it and be a tastemaker. And it's something that people are already doing today, right? People love being first to new music. They always like to brag. But when they saw that favorite artist of theirs five years ago before they were popular, so we're just kind of leaning into that world. So looking at the future, we want there to be markets for music ownership, something that exists only privately today. And if you look at all other types of markets, they always start very private OTC style and become more available to the masses over time. Same with cryptocurrencies, right?

Like, you know, some of the first crypto exchanges, it was very difficult to buy cryptocurrencies with fiat for a very, very long time. Now it's extremely easy thanks to companies like Coinbase. and and you know i think that that's the world that we want to see we want to see music being freely traded and we want to see artists who can develop their careers without the dependencies of rather inefficient legacy ecosystems and creating a more direct to fan relationship um the other piece of this that i haven't mentioned yet is all the tickets that i've ever sold and all the streams that I've ever generated, I don't know who any of those people are. I've generated over a billion streams across my career and I have no idea who any of those people are. None of that

data is shared with me. At least, you know, with Royal, these artists will be able to know who their fans are and engage with them and create a community of a thousand powerful fans. You know, the thousand true fan theory actually do that and execute on that and engage that community. And so, yeah, we hope to see a lot of that happening in the future with our product. And it's really just the beginning and we think it's going to take some time like without a doubt this is not something that's going to happen overnight but we're ready for the journey the part of to me that's so fascinating about this is not only can you align economic incentives right which then feeds this like user behavior i'm gonna listen to this song i'm gonna tell all my friends about

it because i have an economic stake in it but also this idea that it gives you a relationship with the fan that's very very unique right um it feels to me like uh as we've moved to a digital world, artists are still trying to find, how do I provide that special experience? How do I provide that kind of deeper relationship? And maybe I can't fly to every city and meet everybody, but what can I do in the digital world? And, you know, to be honest, like what's better than making someone money, right? It's kind of like the ultimate relationship that you can have with a fan. A hundred percent. If someone stood by you in the beginning, they should be able to earn from, from, from being a part of your experience. And, and one of the things that we're doing is,

is we're not always Royals going to be involved in a lot of really cool campaigns where fans don't even necessarily have to buy these assets. They can actually earn them. All right. I got two more questions. Then we're done with the recording. How can people at home who are listening to this participate, help, et cetera. I know you guys are hiring. Are there, is there somewhere you want to send them? What can they do right now? If they're super excited about this idea, want to kind of stay with what you're doing? Yeah. So we have a bunch. So with the funding announcement, we wanted to make sure that we had a website ready to intake all the inbound interest. And so if you go to royal.io, there are lots of forums. If you're an artist, you can apply

to be a part of it and create a project with us. If you're a fan, you can sign up and you can also refer other fans and friends who might want to be involved. And we actually have a ranking system for those referrals that will launch on Thursday. So definitely refer your friends, create an account, and that will do some fun things in the future. My last question is more personal for you. I've known you for a little while now, and I think most people see you as Blau the musician. You then became kind of this tech forward musician.

If somebody was to ask you today, what you do for a living, do you consider yourself a technology entrepreneur, a musician? Do you have like a 72 word bio that you said? Like how do you think of yourself now? Because you're pioneering this really interesting thing where you're like part investor, part musician, part tech entrepreneur. So how do you think about it? I guess for the next many years, I'm the CEO of Royal, which is kind of crazy. I mean, I'm still going to make music.

I'm still going to play shows, but I'm definitely, you know, dialing that back. I used to do, you know, upwards of 100 shows per year. I'm probably dialing that back to like 30 and really focusing full on on this idea. I'm all in. um, I really believe this is the future of music and I gotta give it a shot. So that's the plan. I guess, I guess for the next little while I'm, I'm CEO of Royal and Blau as opposed to Blau and CEO of Royal. Uh, that's, that's the plan. That is a, uh, that's a great response. And frankly, I think more and more musicians and entertainers are going to follow your footsteps.

So good for you. Um, all right. Where can we send people to, uh, to follow you on the internet, uh, Twitter, where you want to send them? Yeah. And so for Blau, it's just three L-A-U everywhere. I put a three in my name. Some people say three loud. It is pronounced loud, but you know, you can say whatever you want, uh, for Royal, um, it's Royal.io and then it's join underscore Royal on most social platforms. Um, and that will all be launching very soon. We're, we're so hyped. I, uh, I'm excited to be along for the ride. I think you're onto something here, my friend. So thanks so much for, uh, for coming on and talking about it. Highly suggest everyone go check it out and we'll do this again. Sure. Appreciate you, man. Thanks for listening.