The Pomp Podcast - #659 Investing $750 Million in Crypto with Dan Tapiero

Starting point is 00:00:00 What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Dan Taperio is the managing partner and CEO of 10T Holdings. He has more than 25 years of experience investing across asset classes on Wall Street and is one of the most well-known macro investors in the world. Dan previously spent time working with Julian Robertson, Stanley Druckenmiller, Steve Cohen, and many other luminaries. In this conversation, we discuss Bitcoin, Ethereum, venture capital, the digital asset ecosystem, raising $750 million, the institutional investor interest, and billionaire Wall Street investor questions. I really enjoyed

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Starting point is 00:03:08 the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Dan, what's up, man? How you been? I'm great.

Starting point is 00:03:27 Tapiero, is that how I say it? That's how you say it. You said it correctly many times before, so I don't know what got into you. I said his name wrong one time, and as soon as I get on Zoom, he starts roasting me for saying it wrong. Well, look, I know you have problems with names ending in O, but, you know, this is an easy one. I hear you. I hear you. How are you? Good. Good. I mean, I've been busy as can be. You know, we've sort of had even limited interactions.

Starting point is 00:03:57 It's just been a whirlwind the last four or five months and I've been off Twitter. I mean, on but not as much as before and, you know, not as, you know, deeply ingrained in sort of the markets, you know, as we built out the holdings of 10T. Talk to us about 10T and what the kind of original idea was and then walk us through this $750 million fundraiser across the various vehicles. Yeah. You know, the idea originally was to build a broad sort of macro sector exposure to the growth in the digital asset ecosystem. So, you know, as you know, I'm a pretty hardcore Bitcoiner. But I also think there is a world where there are lots of things growing up in the overall ecosystem. Lots of great businesses that have grown up. And, you know, I'm not my background is not as a venture capitalist.

Starting point is 00:04:56 So I don't have a specialty in, you know, trying to figure out, you know, which code is better and, you know, which chain is going to work for whatever it is. And so I said to myself, look, I there's a there's a lot going on in this in the private equity world in the digital asset ecosystem. There are a lot of companies that are a lot larger than people understand. And, you know, I'd like to get that kind of exposure for my own personal portfolio and DTAP capital. And so went about the idea of constructing this portfolio of 10 to 15 businesses operating in the space. Again, not involved with the cryptocurrencies or, you know, the protocols or tokens or anything else except for the equity in these businesses. And I did that largely because I wanted to build something that was very easy for outsiders to understand for, you know, as we say, people in the legacy world or the boomer crowd or just people over 50 who have a really hard time understanding what's going on here and are not comfortable with direct exposure in the underlying cryptocurrencies, especially. You know, I think the volatility is a problem. And also, you know, what are the exact fundamentals that are driving these things?

Starting point is 00:06:20 And it's just it's just a lot to comprehend. You know, if you've had success and you've been in the traditional investment world for 30 years, it's just not that easy to make a transition. And so I I said, listen, I'm building this portfolio for myself and this is how I would like it to look. and we just went out, built a team, went out and spoke to people in my network and friends of mine and people from my background and said, look, this is what the portfolio broadly is going to look like. And what we did is we broke it down into three buckets. There's digital asset ecosystem gateways, next-gen financial services businesses, and blockchain infrastructure companies. and basically we have three to four companies in each bucket and the idea really is to hold them for five six seven years and i think we're going to get multiples appreciation you saw in the

Starting point is 00:07:15 the press release some of the businesses that we've all that we already own and i i know you're familiar with all of them and you're an investor yourself and actually a few of them talk to me about when you went out to raise the money so you've got a very unique position in that uh for 25 years, you've invested across markets. You've started previous businesses before in different sectors. You've worked with or for some of the best global macro investors in the world. And so you've got kind of a very unique network and the trust of a lot of people. And you've done great work with a bunch of people that are well-respected in traditional finance. When you went out to have those conversations, what was the reaction from whether it was,

Starting point is 00:07:55 you know, the billionaire friends or from these like institutional allocators? Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I always say this. It sort of broke down like almost, you know, according to age. You know, if I met somebody who was an investor, let's say in their 30s, they were super interested, but, you know, usually writing smaller checks and, you know, meeting guys sort of in their 60s or later, very tough sell. um but of course you know they're um you know they're managing most of the money so it's sort of we have a nice cross-section yes a lot of guys from my background uh all the lps more or less are our friends or people from my network as you said i think people um i i think people who were interested in the space but just didn't have exposure and were looking for ways to get exposure, those are the people who really were excited by the idea. Because, look, the

Starting point is 00:09:00 investment team and I, we write these 50-page investment memos that take weeks, if not months sometimes, behind each of the investments. And so I can say, listen, the fund is putting in, and this is how we really got to this $750 million. I would say the fund itself, which is around $390 million. You know, the fund is investing, let's say, $40 million into this business. And then I would say, you know, here's our research. This is why. And, you know, there's co-invest if you're interested. And so what's happened is, is because quite a few of the LPs are from the money management business, they're either retired or still in the game. They read the 50 page investment memo and then they, you know, they make a decision for themselves. And so, you know, in some cases

Starting point is 00:09:48 you have guys who, you know, put, let's say, a million dollars into the fund, but then all of a sudden are asking for five million of co-invest or 10 million. It's because they they have quite a lot of firepower. And, you know, I think they're happy to have the general exposure in the fund, but they're also experienced enough to want to really leverage up when they see the opportunity. And, you know, I would say the skill we have really isn't explaining something very clearly. And, you know, that's sort of the one skill that I developed over 25 years, not only, you know, managing my own portfolio and portfolios, you know, at the funds where I worked at, but, you know, always sort of being very working very closely with the head of those funds and being able to explain yourself clearly, simply, you know, and to be able to explain a subject that is foreign, you know, And to put it in terms that people will understand, I think, has been the reason why we've grown so quickly. And it's sort of way beyond my expectations because the co-invest vehicles all add up to about another, you know, call it 300 million or so.

Starting point is 00:11:08 So actually, I think it's actually more. I think it's closer to 350 in co-invest vehicles. And I don't think we, you know, we've allocated about remarkably 80 percent of the fund money. And again, we really just launched at the end of January. So, I mean, it's been, as I said, drinking from a fire hose. When you think about the I'll just call them kind of billionaire Wall Street asset management crowd and the institutional investor crowd. I think that you guys had a public pension also participate that was publicly named. Talk to me about the difference in conversations between the individuals that, yes, they are very wealthy. Yes, they operate in some form or fashion like an institution to some degree. But the institutions that you actually have participating, what was the difference in conversation there?

Starting point is 00:11:58 Yeah, I mean, it's sort of interesting. Yeah, I think it was it was released in the Bloomberg article. It is state of Michigan, their pension fund, Merce. They they invested a considerable amount. And I think they were looking for a way to get exposure. You know, I don't think they own Bitcoin or can. And but, you know, they're smart people. They wanted to get exposure to the sector broadly, but weren't really interested in taking on the risk of early stage investments. And, you know, the minimum size and market value of companies we look at is 500. But of the 11 businesses we own, you know, only nine of them are over a billion dollars in market valuation. Only two are sort of between 500 and a billion.

Starting point is 00:12:50 And so those types of businesses are also de-risked. They don't have the same type of business risk. Look, they're not going to go up 100x like Solana or some of these other things that have moved 100, 200x or whatever it is. you know, we think some of the businesses can go up five to 10 times in the next five, six, seven, eight years. And for a big fund like that, you know, they can put a lot of money to work in bigger names. But it also helped that a very close friend of mine had taken an investment from them, a friend of mine about 15 years, you know, knew them very, very well. And he, of course, spoke on our behalf to them. I did not reach out to them. I didn't know them beforehand. But honestly, I was told that, you know, they turned around within a few weeks to make the investment. I was told that like never before has a pension fund turned around that quickly.

Starting point is 00:13:59 I don't I'm not you know, I've never really raised a lot of money. I'd always worked for funds that had more capital than they knew what to do with. So I was never on any sort of fundraising circuit, you know, where I met pension funds or whatever it was. So it was really, again, as I described before, there are institutional players out there from the legacy world. They just don't know how to access it and play it in a way that they're comfortable with and so the fund is somewhat structured you know based on my own personal parameters what i wanted for my own um portfolio but also you know with you know keeping in mind of course what other institutional type you know um and you know more institutional type investors uh want and are

Starting point is 00:14:51 comfortable with we also have a a foundation uh an la based foundation but you know they're you you know, multiple billion dollar foundation, but they're very savvy. They, you know, they've been long actually Bitcoin, I think, and Ethereum for quite a while. And they have a few venture investments, but just not, it's just, there's too much risk there. They don't, you know, they don't want a black or red option. And I think that, that would just means that, you know, the typical VC, I guess, you know, makes 10 investments and nine go to zero and one ends being google and the fund returns you know a zillion percent it's sort of i don't know i'm sort of uncomfortable with that strategy even though it's worked brilliantly and in this space

Starting point is 00:15:38 the vcs have had huge returns um but there's only so much an investor can have even if he likes that strategy in a vc bucket and so um you know 10t which only invests in the mid to late stage companies in the space is sort of a, as I call it, more of a broad sector bet. You could call it, like, in a sense, you could think of us as building an index of the future. I mean, I think if you look at the companies we've bought, I think, look, within five years, most of them will probably be public. You know, some of them could be in the S&P 500. You know, if they weren't in crypto, you know, some of them are making hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue, they'd already be public and in the S&P. So, but I think that's a little bit of an advantage for us

Starting point is 00:16:32 that the growth equity guys who would normally play in this space, you know, except for, you know, the Tigers and CO2s, and they'll come in and write one-off checks and, you know, they can do whatever they like. But most of the growth equity space, they're not that comfortable with currency or with macro. And this really is a macro bet. And we're using the private equity structure to take a long term view, because I think the one thing that kills you in this space is, you know, the short term view. I think no one knows what's going to happen on a three month or five month view or even necessarily on a one year view. But on a five-year view, three to five-year view, I have a very high degree of conviction. And as you

Starting point is 00:17:19 know, I mean, since we started talking almost two years ago, in the middle of 19, I've had a very strong view about how this world was developing and where Bitcoin prices were headed. And I remember that interview we did about gold and Bitcoin. You know, I think, you know, I still am a believer in physical gold. And that's a conversation for another day. I've got lots of exposures in my portfolio. I know, Pomp, I know you're 100% long Bitcoin in your portfolio. But for us, you know, guys a little bit older, we're not quite 100%, you know, and try to have a few different types of exposures. But, you know, I think that this is a differentiated enough expression of an investment, a view that it is attractive, you know, for that institutional.

Starting point is 00:18:19 But who's interested, right? The guys who say to me, there were many guys who just said, it's Ponzi, we don't believe in this. No, thank you. And I was like, okay. It was very easy conversations because we were rejected right away uh or they had been thinking about it right and so those people we try to help and we try to educate and we give them things to read uh we send them some of your podcasts believe it or not um you know so you know as you know there's a lot of educating to do in this space when you think about bitcoin let's start there uh where do you think Bitcoin goes from a price standpoint this year? Are you a believer in this like super cycle theory? Are you more a believer that, you know, we kind of just go sideways? How do you think

Starting point is 00:19:04 about Bitcoin through the end of the year? Well, you know, I just said it's almost pointless to have a three to four month view, but I know that's what, you know, sort of people look at it. Look, I was in the hedge fund business and I had marks every day and every week and liquidity every month. I mean, I lived that for, you know, 25 years, you said. I just think that, this is an asset that's returned 250% annualized over the last 11 years. It's the greatest return of any asset in the history of the world. I mean, probably going back to caveman times. So I don't think, I mean, I really am a hodler. I don't think you mess around with that. I always thought, and I've said probably even a year ago, I think that we were going to get to

Starting point is 00:19:47 around a trillion dollar market valuation, and then we would consolidate. And that's sort of what we've done. I mean, in my worldview, 40,000 Bitcoin, 50,000, 6,000, it's all basically around the same price. I think we could still get to 100 by the end of the year. I, you know, we might need some macro things to happen. I think that's more likely sort of within six to 12 months. But, you know, and I think I've said this on our last interview and even two years ago that three, four or five hundred thousand, which would put the market value at, call it, you know, five, six trillion dollars. That was the first stop for me. You know, and I just simply, you know, I've talked about this a lot, but it just in my mind, I think, OK, Bitcoin, you know,

Starting point is 00:20:38 the most decentralized, most secure network in the history of the world, the potential sort of value protocol for the entire Internet. OK, and it's worth a trillion dollars, which is roughly half of Amazon, which is just one company. So to me, I look and I think, you know, how much would it cost even a company to to try to build the Bitcoin network from scratch? I mean, it's trillions and trillions of dollars. So, you know, five trillion dollar market value is a is a comfortable estimate that I am very comfortable with. In fact, I called the fund we called the fund 10T. Now, 10T stands for 10 trillion. And what is that? Well, the market value, OK, when we started thinking about this idea in 19 and 20, I said the value of Bitcoin, Ethereum, all the

Starting point is 00:21:31 cryptocurrency and all the equity in the space, OK, was around 300 billion. And I said, well, I think we can go from 300 billion to 10 trillion in 10 years. And so that's sort of our mantra 10T in 10 years. But the problem is we're at 3 trillion now. So like we're a chip shot away from 10 trillion in 10 years. I mean, we just launched really in January and we're already at 3T. So, you know, the biggest mistake I've made with all of this was I've underestimated the exponentiality of the growth in the space. It's sort of not anything that the mind can comprehend. Last thing I'd say on this, though, is that I was just looking at the teaser for the fund that we wrote a year ago. There were 20 businesses that we identified with over a

Starting point is 00:22:30 billion-dollar market valuation. Today, there are 70. Just think about that. 70 businesses. It's crazy to see. There's a lot to do in this space. And I presume I'll have, you know, there'll be other people getting involved. I mean, soon. When you think about the businesses, is it fair to say that your investment strategy is essentially to invest in the infrastructure and then you're benefiting from like the overall industry growth and the kind of that index approach is you're basically betting, hey, the industry is going to be, you know, much larger, hundreds of percent larger in the future. And you want to bet on businesses that are going to win as long as the industry grows. Is that kind of a fair characterization? That's exactly right. You know, that's exactly right. I think, you know, we want to pay a reasonable multiple of revenue and earnings as well. I mean, I don't think there's a company that we paid more than 10 times revenue for. um you know we're we're there there are so many opportunities out there we're very active in the secondary market as well we speak to companies directly um you know i i'm not really willing to pay 25 or 30 times revenue um and there are great

Starting point is 00:23:52 companies that we've just passed on um that will grow a lot uh just because you know we don't have to buy everything. There are lots of great companies. But yeah, I would say these are companies that we think are core to the ecosystem. And, you know, the approach really was it's a $300 billion in, you know, late 1920s, $300 billion world. And we think it's going to $10 trillion. And so that's 30x. And if it goes 30x, if we have a basket portfolio diversified nicely of, you know, sort of broadly what you're calling picks and shovels, businesses that are constructing, you know, the rails of this new digital asset ecosystem, you know, the odds are the portfolio was going to go up and i we don't need a 30x to be happy um but we actually put that 10 t obviously

Starting point is 00:24:52 you know we're putting our our uh you know we're eating our own cooking on this one i mean i put it in the title of the fun so um you know a portfolio i think broadly is going to have such wind at its back that it should do well and again you can see from the names that we purchased that, you know, it is it is diversified into those buckets. And then these businesses broadly do different types of things. So talk to me about the biggest surprise as you've been deploying the capital. I know you've deployed a very large portion of the seven hundred fifty million dollars already. What's been the biggest surprise to you, whether, you know, as you've dug deeper into the companies, talking to entrepreneurs, talking to investors, what surprised you?

Starting point is 00:25:37 I mean, I guess I would say that, you know, one of the hesitations that many people we spoke with initially had was they said, well, Dan, that's great. Your team is great. You know, everyone has connections and a network in the space. But how are you going to procure these blocks of stock? You know, you know, I had the portfolio more or less broadly outlined before we launched. I said to investors, this is what I'm interested in. We had five leaders and five backups. And I said, broadly, for the three buckets within these 30 companies, we're going to have a portfolio and hopefully we'll get some of our leaders. We won't have to go to our backups, but this is what it's going to look like. And almost every person said, well, how are you going to do that? Maybe

Starting point is 00:26:29 Maybe the stock's not available, et cetera, et cetera. Biggest surprise is that it's been very easy to source the equity in the businesses that we wanted. Very easy versus expectations. And, you know, and I think that's why the LPs also keep asking for, you know, when is the next fund? We allocated very quickly, much more quickly than we thought. But again, at reasonable valuations, we weren't reaching for the moon or anything. We just we said, you know, these are the types of businesses we're interested in. You know, we approached a lot of the companies directly.

Starting point is 00:27:07 We have, you know, have built good relationships. You know, I think we're still the only fund, I think, out there that is focused exclusively and only on mid to late stage companies in the digital asset ecosystem. So, you know, and I think people in the space know that. Um, and so it's not, you know, as you know, it's a very flat space, you can reach out to someone on Twitter. It's not, it's not that that hard. And if people feel that, you know, you are bringing new capital to the space, and I think we are, I think we're bringing, you know, people joke with me that, oh, Dan, you know, you're doing, you're doing crypto for boomers. I mean, it's sort of true. You know, we're bringing like completely new capital to this space and we're allocating it, I think, to some of the smartest guys. And I'm saying to myself, these guys, they know what to do with it. They're much smarter than I am in certainly on the weeds, you know, getting deep into the weeds. And they're going to be able to pivot to where the action is, to where the business is, to the places that really need capital.

Starting point is 00:28:19 So I'm in a sense, really, you know, I think some of these businesses already are budding conglomerates and also in a way like VC funds as well, because, you know, some of the businesses, they're snapping up these smaller companies and they're incorporating them into their operating businesses. So, you know, in a way, they know what smaller companies are going to be successful, almost better than the VCs, because they're incorporating them into their bigger businesses. So, I would say the biggest surprise was that we haven't had difficulty. And also in the future, I mean, there are a lot of companies out there. I mean, there's quite a long pipeline of companies that have approached us or that we've marked, you know, that we think are interesting and worth investing in. When you think about the industry at large, one of the things that comes up a lot is regulation. Obviously, we're seeing it in all different forms and fashions. Some of it seems to be a tailwind. Some of it seems to be a headwind. How do you talk to legacy kind of market investors, people who think about regulation a lot, want to understand that there's certainty from a regulation standpoint?

Starting point is 00:29:33 What are those conversations about? The one thing that I try to, you know, make very clear to the LPs is that crypto is a global business. Bitcoin, Ethereum, it's global. All the things popping up in the ecosystem, it's global. And if you look at total world volume spot and futures, I think the U.S. is 10% of world volume. So I keep telling people, listen, stop telling me about the SEC and the Treasury and all this stuff. I get it. Yeah, the U.S. is going slow. They're putting speed bumps out there. I personally am not so sure they know what they're doing. They'll figure it out. They'll figure it out. But for the investments that we're making, they're all global businesses and some of them are U.S. But we have some you know, we have a non-regulated business in there, but he's buttoned up.

Starting point is 00:30:33 He's smart. He's not doing any. He's doing his KYC. We're not concerned about like any issues. It's just that he doesn't operate in the United States. And that's fine. Again, people in the U.S. think everything is always just about the U.S. And in the last 30, 40 years and before, clearly since the war, I guess that's been true. But, you know, this may be the first time that from a technology innovation and financial innovation perspective, the U.S. is definitely not in the lead. And it could be. You know, I think that this is an opportunity. I've been saying this for two years for the legislators here, for people in government, dig deep, understand what's going on here.

Starting point is 00:31:21 And my goodness, I mean, incentivize innovation. Forget about like overregulating it and being difficult and clamping down and all of this stuff. This is the future and we don't want to be left behind. And, you know, I tell my LPs, these are these companies, they're diversified globally. um you know even the u.s ones so i just you know i i think it takes a little bit of time for people to understand that um i mean just think about how many you know there are probably node operators in every country that exists in the world right of course you can't say that about other assets of course i've got my brother john here he's got a couple questions for you yeah hey dan thank you for doing this it's really nice to meet you um 10t is an awesome name by the I love that. Well, it's only awesome if we're right. That is true. That is true. So I'm curious

Starting point is 00:32:17 about, you were talking about investing in the infrastructure of kind of the digital asset economy. What excites you the most about that? So I've seen that you guys have done investments into Kraken, Ledger SAS. Like what is exciting to you about that? Is it the lightning network? Is it the hardware? Is it kind of the, the exchanges? Like what, what are you excited about moving forward? Yeah. I mean, you know, I take a little bit of a pedestrian approach to it in the sense that, you know, what excites me about the businesses we're buying is the fact that they're making a lot of money. Right. I'm an investor. OK. And the guys who are winning and know how to win and know how to build businesses, those are the guys I want to invest

Starting point is 00:33:00 That's different from projects that I think are cool, that I think could work. Again, I'm not a venture capitalist. I don't have the ability to make skilled judgments about these budding enterprises. um you know in a sense you know i'm letting in a way i'm not letting but i'm i'm not making these investments at c or in the a rounds uh or really even b i mean we're usually focused on b plus and c and d i don't mind paying a higher valuation um you know a higher market valuation if the company has established itself already um you know because the space is growing so quickly um i i just as i said i'm just trying to build a broad diversified um bet for um you know for the traditional investor and i'll tell you you look at the list of companies for rlp base i mean most of them have never heard of these businesses before so just think about that never and so

Starting point is 00:34:09 Well, that's why I say I think we've we've tapped into a whole new type of investor base. The criteria really is this threshold. You know, do they have a you know, are they are it's not a business looking for a business, right? It's a business that's already established itself and is dominant in its space. Dan, when you think about moving forward, are you going to just continue to allocate capital to the space? Do you think it's something where once you get the money invested, then you'll kind of sit and harvest it? How do you think about kind of future plans? Yeah, I mean, I think, look, if there are opportunities out there, reasonable valuations, I think we'll keep going in some form or another.

Starting point is 00:34:57 I mean, you know, if I if I look out and there aren't opportunities or everything is trading at 30, 40 times revenue, then I think that would, you know, we take we take a rest. But as I said, I mean, just think about it. One year ago, 20 businesses worth over a billion dollars. Today, there are 70. And that's not that's not just multiple expansion. And in some cases, you know, that's massive revenue expansion. And so, you know, just in very like simple terms, I mean, we all know the volume, just the volume at the exchanges is up five X from last year. I mean, that's five hundred percent. And so there are huge knock on effects as the number of wallets increase, as adoption increases. It's really it's it's exponential. And so as long as there are opportunities out there, I think we'll continue to allocate capital. I think that, uh, that makes sense. Where can we send people to find you on Twitter or find

Starting point is 00:36:01 more information about what you're doing? Well, I'm DTAP cap on Twitter. Um, but you know, we have a website 10 T fund, you know, if you just punch it into Google, as I, you know, you'll, you get to our website and, um, you know, we have all sorts of information there. Um, I think we may even have the interview that you and I did last on there under the educational section. But that's a good place to go, the website. I love it. I love it. Listen, you've been ahead of the curve. You continue to surprise to the upside, just like Bitcoin and everything else. So keep it up. I think this is awesome. And then obviously the portfolio that you guys have built is a list a very impressive name. So I think that any founder who has the opportunity to partner with

Starting point is 00:36:54 you guys is pretty intelligent if they go ahead and they pursue that. Well, thanks, Pomp. And I hope that some of your early stage investments grow into, you know, 10T investments. So I'm looking forward to us doing some business as well, maybe down the line. I'm going to send them all to you. Be like, listen, Dan's the smartest guy that I know. Go ahead and take all of his money. all right pomp anyway thank you very much for having me really enjoyed this absolutely thanks so much for doing it everyone make sure you go check out 10tfund.com or you can go follow dan on twitter at d tap cap all capitalized by the way which is uh is my favorite thing about your twitter all right sir thank you so much thanks all right bye

The Pomp Podcast - #659 Investing $750 Million in Crypto with Dan Tapiero

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