The Pomp Podcast - #753 Bringing Coding To The Masses w/ Amjad Masad

Episode Date: December 13, 2021

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big fan of Circle, and I think you will be as well. All right, let's get in this episode. I hope you guys enjoyed this one. Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. All right, so this next guest, Amjad, is going to come on here. And I'm an investor in the business, but this is one of those businesses that I don't really care if I get the money back.

Like, I just fundamentally believe, John's looking at me like I'm crazy for saying that, but I fundamentally believe in what they're trying to accomplish here. And because I believe so much, I think that they're going to end up building a massive, massive, massive business. So it'll be a great investment as well. But I think understanding why this is so important is a key piece to this. So Amjad, are you there? Yes, I'm here. How are you, my friend?

I'm doing well. I'm excited to be on the Best Business Show. I've been a viewer for a long time. Well, you know what they say, the best business show only has the best guests. So obviously you had to come on. Like, it's pretty simple, right? You're very kind.

All right, let's start first with Replit, just in terms of like, what is the business and why are you building this? You could be building a lot of different things, but like, why is this so important for the world? Yeah. So fundamentally, we believe that we're in the middle of a great transition that was accelerated 2020 with the pandemic. And we're in the middle of this shift from a primarily industrial society to the information age. And people have been predicting that for a long time. But like for the first time, you could actually feel it, that it's happening.

People are coming online. They want to make their businesses online. A lot of people are quitting their jobs. And it's a very, very exciting time. But there's a fundamental problem in our opinion, which is most people are consumers of computers. We think computers are the most powerful medium, the most powerful technology in the history of humanity. It's on the order of what the printing press was. You know, before the reading and writing is a superpower, it gives you the ability to extend your brain, your mind to communicate with large amounts of people to uh to save things um to write things down for generations to come and um initially reading and writing was only you know practiced by the priesthood uh you know the elite only had access to these to this very powerful technology And then the printing press really changed that.

And now we have, you know, you go from less than one percent know how to read and write. And now we have essentially, you know, full literacy in the modern world. And and that changed the world. Like a lot of the democratic, scientific, industrial innovation would not be possible without reading and writing. And it would not be possible without a population that actually can read and write. And so we think we're in the middle of this transition, and less than 0.5% of the world can actually use computers to their fullest extent, meaning to compute, to be able to write software, to be able to manipulate data. And the rest of us are just at the mercy of the creators of the software, which happens to be concentrated mostly in North America, mostly in Silicon Valley. And so we think, you know, what we're building at Replit is very important, which is really bringing the tools to everyone, bringing the tools that are creating the modern world, namely software development and building software to everyone in the world. And so we've been working, I've been working personally on it my entire career.

You know, I started working on it in college. I had this realization back in college when I found it so hard to just to set up the development environment. Basically, when you're starting to code, you have to set up all the software, download gigabytes of software. And I was like, you know, this is absurd. Like I have a computer in front of me. Why can't I just program it? Like, why can't I open a browser window and program it? So Replit was one of the first kind of online environments.

Later on, we added collaboration, and we added a community, and then we added a place for people to host their applications. So it became this end-to-end platform where you come in, you write your first line of code, and then you build your first application, maybe even build your first business without leaving the platform. So what's fascinating to me is you immediately go to this idea of learning to read and write and the impact that had on the world. Right. And I agree with you that that was probably underestimated how important it was by people today because we just saw everyone reads and writes, you know, of course, is your thought process that 90 plus percent of people or like the majority of people, 20, 40, 50 years from now will be technically savvy enough to write code and kind of use software that they've created to operate within the world, whether it's for commercial purposes, personal purposes, etc. Or is it something where you think it'll still be, you know, I don't know how many developers there are today from a global population standpoint, but, you know, probably five million. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, less than 5% end up creating all of the software in the world. Like, how do you think about as we move forward, how that percentage changes? So there's going to be two trends, right?

So one trend is, you know, computer science education and that's happening in school. And we build a lot of tools for teachers to be able to deliver that, that education. Um, and then, you know, online learning is another, another trend, um, that will like spread, uh, uh, spread coding education, but then there's another trend. And this other trend is sort of just starting. And this other trend is about, okay, um, you know, maybe coding is not, you know, just the only medium for computing and for creating software. So there's this no-code movement. One thing we're interested in, we're investing in, is what does AI mean for coding and code generation? It's like one of the earliest applications of AI was actually for the AI to be able to program itself. So the programming language LISP, which was invented in the 50s at the MIT AI Lab. And the interesting thing about Lisp was this idea of like code as data, the idea that the AI would be able to rewrite itself to create dynamic behavior.

Now, that didn't really materialize like they thought, you know, that deep learning and neural revolution kind of overtook that. But I think there's still a there's still something fundamental there. And the question is, can the AI generate code better than humans? And can humans operate at a higher level than just code? You need that structured thinking. You need to understand how computing works. You need to understand how computers work. And so you need to do all that work. And maybe you need a little bit of coding as well. But maybe in the future, you'll be able, if you can think clear thoughts in a structured way, you'll be able to translate into software. So we're excited about these two trends. Like, I don't think there's going to be like, you know, a point where everyone is a software developer in the world. I think that percentage will go much higher than we think, maybe double digit percentage. But I think the rest of the people will not be mere consumers.

And I think that's the key point. I think they'll be able to manipulate data in an easy way. they'll be able to at least use some kind of computation for their work. And maybe that's done on a higher level. Okay. So when you think about that, let's say that we all agree, which I think you and I definitely agree on this, but how does that manifest itself into a product? Because there's basically three different kind of aspects to going from, I don't understand how to code to now I'm an effective software developer. The first is you got to learn, right? So there's an education component. The second is what I'll call the initial setup of the environment. And then the third is

what I would consider the like sustainable or the like everyday environment that you end up using. And what I think is unique about the approach that you all are taking is you really are kind of end to end solving all three of those things in a single product that feels very seamless and doesn't feel like you're kind of moving from one to the next to the next. So talk through a little bit about how you think about the design of the product and then what that user, if somebody wanted to go learn from scratch how to code, what does that look like for them as a journey? So when I first started thinking about these problems and started designing applications, I actually joined Code Academy as the first engineer at the company. And what we built there

was really, really cool. And it helped and continues to help. And it's a really strong business on the founders just done amazing thing is just like make it really easy for people to learn how to code have the environment right next to instructions and and kind of like go step by step where where i think you know our vision for replit has been is that we don't want to you know we don't want to like create something we're just like you know uh just for training and then um and then you have to leave it and and and you know go do something else so like the idea of like use a product to learn and then you go find the real thing and and by the way like you know there's still this chasm in between a lot of people drop off between kind of doing some

tutorials and actually going and practicing the real thing and um and just fundamentally doesn't make a lot of sense like imagine if um to to learn how to drive a car you get like a special car you drive it for a week and then like you you you drop it off and then you get the real car you know a better better analogy is like training wheels how you know you get on a bike you buy a bike the first thing you do you put uh training wheels when you're a kid and then you learn how to do that and then your dad is like all right you're ready and then you you they'll take the training wheels off and off you go right um but um so for us we always think about this idea of like low barrier high ceiling and it's a really tough design problem like so we want the environment

to fundamentally make sense to you the moment you see it and we've done a lot of research and the idea of like okay there's input here there's output here and there's a big run button and that's like the replete sort of identity and like core design innovation from the start was like just that part is really understandable for people. And then from there on, we try to make the environment more and more customizable, and we'll try to make the environment more intelligent. So one thing that happens is when the environment detects that you're trying to do something a little bit more complicated, it will actually reconfigure itself to support your use case. So for example, let's say you're writing a piece of code, you started with Hello World,

and you're building up your application and then you're like, okay, I want to make this a server. So, you know, you start an HTTP server and so the environment actually detects that and then opens a new window. And that window is the output from the web server you just built. And another kind of piece of,

another thing we do to make that sort of transition like very, you know, very stepwise transition between the, you know, between the initial experience and the complex day-to-day work, we designed this thing called the Universal Package Manager. And package management is one of the hardest things to wrap your head around. Package management is awesome

because it gives you millions, if not billions of human hour of code that had happened in the open source world. And so you'll be able to import that into your code and build a much more powerful application. The problem is package managers are very complex pieces of software. So with our package manager, we actually parse the code and detect that you're trying to import a package or bring in a package, and we'll do all the back-end work for you.

So we'll install the package, and we'll show you that work. It's not like abstracted away or magic or anything like that, but we'll do the work for you, and the environment just is more intelligent to understand you're trying to do this, you're trying to do that. so uh that's been that's been our um that's been our uh sort of approach to this and so far it's worked you know we've had um you know we've had uh kids uh actually yesterday samarth jaju shout out if you're uh um listening to this but um he started he's user number 500 he started to code on replit when he was 14 uh in india and now he got into berkeley and yesterday he came and visited our office and he's still coding on Replit. And that kind of retention over four or five years is pretty amazing. He is hitting some limitation to be clear, and he's giving us

feedback constantly. But I think there's enough sort of convenience that we provide for more advanced programmers that they'll stick with the app as we make it powerful and we do make it more powerful year over year and then um and then just because their friends aren't there and just because it's like a fun community as well like another thing we do is like one of the things that bothered me i love the programming and open source community but there are some things uh to be desired there's this like you know um toxic behavior sometimes or you know gatekeeping and and with the replica community would try to keep it fun and light and exciting kind of like how programming was in the early days, how the early days of the internet was. And, and, and, and that's

how we're able to kind of build a place where learners can, can learn valuable skills, meet friends, and start coding with other people, but also can continue and do their job and build their projects. So when you think about this environment, and this structure, I think what you just described is, you know, incredibly powerful, how many people are using it? Or how do you think about like success based on user metrics or uh retention or any of that type of stuff like what are the metrics that you pay attention to like this is a really important metric for us and then how do you evaluate where you all are today in terms of progress or milestones so um that's a very important question um the um uh one of the hardest thing about understanding replica as a

business is that, uh, you know, it sits between consumer and enterprise, meaning like, um, you know, uh, the level of engagement we're striving for is kind of a consumer business. And we do have like the average session of Replit is one hour, uh, which is like more than YouTube, which is 45 minutes. Um, uh, and then, uh, and then there are some aspects of the business where, um where you know uh it it's like right now the population of developers is not that much like like we talked about 25 30 million people so uh github for example has um like i don't know 100 penetration like maybe 95 penetration in the developer world um and they have something like you know um you know 15 20 million monthly active users

and then uh with with replit it's you know over time we've changed how we look at things initially we looked at monthly active users more recently uh we think it's more honest for us to uh to look at weekly active users um and um because we want people to build at least a weekly habit uh again like replit is still mostly used by hobbyists teenagers students uh early career engineers um and um eventually i think we'd want to look at daily active users because like if you're coding every day for your job like that should be like a very uh like a very intense activity that you do on a daily basis um we haven't disclosed our like monthly active users figures uh yet but you know our our like total signups is uh 10 million uh users today by

comparison like uh i think github's total signups is like uh 70 million um users um in terms of like how we benchmark like i i think we should be growing really fast compared to any other developer network in history and you know as we compare our growth to like github early days we're like running at twice that kind of growth um and then um and then in terms of like uh milestones there's like product milestones and there's like adoption milestones in terms of adoption the the you know we've been growing at least uh 100% of our year uh you know some years 150 200 depending on the year covid was a big year for us where we grew a lot faster um and um and that that i think that exponential growth need to continue um you know in perpetuity because we want to reach we want to

reach a billion user mark at some point, there are a lot of going to change between us and getting there. It might take a decade or so, but we think that, you know, we, you know, as we develop our product, we need to make sure that like everyone can get value out of it. Students can learn on it and then developers can, can build and create businesses on top of it. Got it. And then what are the things that people are building inside of this? Like when you think about what's possible or what's actually happened are people building like hello world apps uh or are they building something that's much more complex or they're like one or two anecdotal examples that you're like yeah this is pretty cool yeah um actually um uh samarth i was i was talking to him yesterday

he built this um social network uh um uh for gifting so you create a profile and you put like a like your wish list like especially books and then like people can buy you books and they can do it anonymously and they can send you a letter. I've received books when I created my profile for it. It went viral a little bit on Twitter. You can still see it in links in people's bios. And he made some money out of it as well. And he built that and Replit. In terms of other examples, we do have a lot of games. If you go to Replit.com for slash apps, there's a lot of games. there's a lot of like mad science experiments like can i run like mac os uh from the 80s and replit and like you'll see a lot of that kind of like build a compiler interpreter an operating

system a database there's a lot of things that like people who are you know learning or hacking or replit they just build like really cool infrastructure that other people end up using as well there's a lot of things that people build for the ecosystem itself so like you know embarrassingly we don't have a user search yet but you can actually um you can actually uh like there's a user a program uh where you can search for replet users and they're augmenting the platform with their own tools so there's a lot of extensibility happening people extending replet uh you know there's a theme app store where or like a theme store where you can go and theme your ide and that's someone who's also hacking and extending replet so there's a lot of like

tools that are just like making the platform better and then a lot of games a lot of fun experiments and learning projects um and then you know every once in a while we'll see entrepreneurs especially in their like late teens early 20s where um you know they build uh they build a business and that's that's one of the most inspired inspiring things we've seen soren who's now actually a product manager at replit we discovered him because he during the spac race last year, he built a bot that scraped the government websites to look for potential upcoming SPACs so that they can invest early in it. So they made that bot and then they started charging access for that bot. So they hosted a replet and then you go to Discord and you want

to add that bot to your Discord so you can get updates on the SPACs. You have to pay a certain amount. And finally, one of my favorite projects are community-based projects where they're like exploring what the network could do for them, like the Replit compute network. There was a project I think last year was called Stonk Exchange. And the idea behind Stonk Exchange is like, there's this like 13 year old kid

who built this like fully working market where you can like, you can sort of buy and sell usernames on the platform or other users on the platform. And not only that, he built an API so you could actually build trading bots. And so for like weeks, our entire community was engaged

in like imaginary meme and stocks and trading bots and like a lot of emergent behavior happened. These are some of the most fun projects that I see because this is like kind of fundamental in you. It's like the sort of Reddit behavior, but they have coding superpowers as well.

I've got two of my brothers here with me. Joe and John, what questions do you guys have? Hey, so thanks for doing this. First off, my, my question would just be around the age that you guys are seeing people on Replit, right? So my understanding is that a large percentage of your user base is younger, called 18 or younger. And what impact do you think that has on your business now and then going forward into the future? it has a negative impact on our business now because they're not monetizable um it has a very positive impact on our community and our engagement uh you know um i was talking to uh to one of our users and i'm like asking him like um like how how often do you use replet and he's like really the only thing distracting me from replet is school um and so uh and so like that kind of like level of engagement, uh, like love for the brand and the community. Um, we get a lot

from our younger user base, um, but they're harder to monetize. Um, I think, um, I think things like the creator economy are actually, um, beginning to, um, make this core audience, um, you know, um, a lot more valuable for the business as well. Um, but the way we think about it, we have this like very long-term uh view of things and the way we think about it if we do a good job and this community grows with us and we continue to grow and acquire the next generation programmers um eventually they're going to be very very valuable uh users and developers in the in the ecosystem who's the youngest user what age are we talking here um so under 10 so there was uh there was a, there's one on Twitter about his name is DJ Wang. Uh,

he emailed us, I think when he was 13, he said, um, like I, I've been using the site since, uh, since I was eight, I think he was asking for like swag or something, something like that. Uh, and he's like, you know, I, I was coding on scratch when I was five or six scratch, by the way, is an awesome website from MIT where, uh, you can do like no code for, for kids. So it's like drag and drop. And it's like, you know,

I really wanted to get into real coding. And then I found Repl.it and, you know, here's my profile. I've been coding since I was eight. And then like you scroll through his profile and you can see the first thing he did was like learn Python using Turtle. Like Turtle logo is like an interesting way to kind of use Python to draw shapes and make games. And then you go down his profile and it's getting more and more complex. It's getting into computer science stuff. It's getting algorithms. It's getting into applications. And I see that over and over again, under 10 kids coming to the platform and growing from, you know, writing, you know, writing the first line of code to all the way to sort of making really cool apps. Gotcha. John, what questions you got?

First of all, congratulations on your new fundraising round. Thank you. My question would be revolving around like when you were fundraising, what were those conversations like? And is there any like story in particular that you're like, wow, like that wasn't they were trying to impress you because it seems like everyone was trying to get their hands on this round. I mean, really credit goes to KOTU. They they've been helping us. They did a survey around Replit, which which was very exciting. And they saw some interesting behavior and people having friends on the platform. don't know how much time. So they had this conviction because they did their own due

diligence since 2019, maybe. And I locked Moz and the team there. Dan Rose was at Facebook, and I worked at Facebook as well. And we've had mutual connections. So we've been building this relationship. And then when they heard that we might be fundraising, they immediately sent in a term sheet just because they've done their homework they have that conviction and uh and that started the round and then i was like okay i'm very flattered but i want to you know run a process and talk to other um other investors um peter teal was a really interesting conversation as well um i'm a big fan of peter and his work um his intellectual output around startups from zero to one also just like his uh social commentary and things like that really trying to understand

the world from from a deep perspective and um a lot of understanding startups is understanding the world uh in that way and so uh the meeting with peter was fascinating because he sort of got the idea and got the plan and the mission and the vision uh in the first like you know five, 10 minutes. And he started pacing me. He started kind of like, you know, jumping the next step and the next step. And here's what you could do. Here's what we learned from PayPal. So that was a really fascinating conversation. And then sort of the bidding sort of started. And, you know, I told Paul Graham is, you know, one of my mentors and early investors at Replit. And then I told him like, this thing is happening. There's a lot of excitement around the round. Like it's

getting bid up. And, um, what Paul told me is that there there's some, uh, like, like don't optimize for, for, for price, you know, uh, there's, uh, you still have to be conservative about things. Um, and so we actually ended up taking the, um, um, basically he said, uh, Paul Graham said that like, there's, there's could be some negative, uh, aspects of like, optimizing all the way or letting the market run with the price. And I agree with that. And we opted for less than a billion. And we took the offer that was $800 million post-money valuation because we didn't feel like we figured everything out to be called a unicorn. We felt like people who are joining Replit today needs to share in the glory because there's a lot of uncertainty,

uncertainty, a lot of hard work in front of us to be able to figure out a scalable business model, to be able to invent the rest of the platform. And we're still a small team. We're still 40 people. And so we're so thankful and happy that people really believe in our mission, especially because it's been really rough. I started on this 12, 13 years ago on some of the ideas here. We've only been able to make it a company in 2016, between 2016, 2018 was sort of a desert in terms of like financing. We're going to raise a lot of money. We had some early believers, but now we're sort of reached this escape velocity with regards to financing and, and capital. And, and that's awesome, but it's, it's like not the success, right? It's like, we're just getting

started and we want to signal that to people you're very humble i think most people go go after that unicorn valuation pretty uh whenever they can yeah well i think the other piece of this too is uh i'm sorry when you think out 20 30 40 years like how big can this be are you talking about like the people who join today the business and enjoying in the upside i'm guessing uh based on my conversations with you you don't think there's two or three x upside but there's you a lot of upside like how do you think about uh any sort of uh rating you know limitation right or like a governor on growth is this a hundred billion dollar you know business opportunity in terms of whoever wins here is that large or how do you think about it as we project out

forward and software continues to eating eat the world and run um run our lives and run our businesses and um as computers get more powerful as moore's law continues to do its thing as ai gets more powerful like the you know the future is really unbounded and a lot of what you guys talk about uh in in this show like what's happening in the bitcoin world um and the decentralized world is is really exciting so we're at this like point of acceleration between all the different technologies and how they affect each other. And, you know, projecting forward, I think the platform that captures much of the developer mindshare of the new

generation of programmers, the upside seems like it would be really, really high. I'm confident that we're going to continue to grow and we're going to continue need to achieve higher and higher valuations. I think there's a lot of uncertainty. We need to figure out more aspects of the business. But I can tell you for sure that we are aiming for that North Star. And the reason I think the business is going to be really huge is because our focus is on unlocking human capital. It's about unlocking the talent all over the world. It's about making software and the internet truly the great equalizer and so if we bring all that talent

from all over the world bring them online and have them create and share and collaborate with each other it's really hard to imagine like a like a like a cap on that and um and so and so i i think um you know i i think uh like my ambition is that this is going to be a really really big company Um, and, um, we want people who, uh, to join us who are really committed to the vision and the mission, the ride is going to be amazing. And the journey is, is, is the reward and kind of inventing the future of software is I care a lot about the craft as well. And, uh, the, the things we built for our users.

Um, and so that's going to be really fun, but I, you know, I think also the upside is going to be tremendous. I, uh, I couldn't agree more. I hope so. i uh i've said multiple times that i don't care if uh if the money comes back but you know it'd be nice you know i i uh you know that's my um that's my job right to make sure it comes back i have no doubt my friend um all right where can we send people to find you on the internet or i'm dropping uh replit.com into uh the chat right now for people to go check out there where should we

send folks to uh to find you um so my twitter is amasad a-m-a-s-a-d that's generally like my handle on on the web on um on replit on github on uh twitter um everywhere um and i have my email address open on on twitter i always welcome like feedback and people who are interested in working with us or or people who are in similar fields and missions and i always welcome discussion Awesome, man. Well, listen, I don't say it lightly when I say that you are building what I think is one of the more important companies in the world. So I am obviously cheering you on one, two. I just want more and more people to learn how to code. I think it's a skill set that can be incredibly impactful for their life on a personal level, but also the things that they build and create obviously can change the world. So it's pretty cool. Thank you. And part of the reason I was excited to take your money is we're incredibly aligned. And the kind of message you put out, the optimism, the idea of anyone, anywhere with kind of little resources can now build something amazing. And we're 100% aligned on that. And so

glad to have you as part of our journey. I appreciate it. I think that's it, man. If you don't follow on Twitter, go follow him. If you haven't checked out Replit.com, go there. Links are in the chat. And we'll definitely have to do this again in the future, but I appreciate you taking the time to do it, and we'll talk soon. Thank you. All right, see you later, buddy. Thank you.