The Pomp Podcast - #774 Investing In Human Longevity And Future Tech w/ Christian Angermayer

Episode Date: January 7, 2022

Christian Angermayer is a billionaire and the founder Apeiron Investment Group. In this conversation, we deep dive into Christian's investments and his views on where the world is going. We discuss human longevity and health optimization, Bitcoin, Inflation, Fed policy, the future of human communication, and how Christian views the next year for the U.S. economy. ======================= Today’s episode is sponsored by Abra. Based in California and backed by top VC firms, Abra is an all-in-one simple, secure app that allows you to trade over 110 cryptocurrencies, get 0% interest loans using your crypto as collateral and earn interest with up to 14% APY on stablecoins and 8.15% APY on Bitcoin. Join nearly 2 million users by downloading Abra from the Google Play or Apple App store. If you download the app today, you will get $15 in free crypto once you fund your account. You came, you invested — now conquer. ======================= Unstoppable Domains is THE #1 provider of NFT domains. These aren’t traditional domains, these are domains with superpowers. With your unique NFT domain such as pomp dot crypto or pomp dot nft, you can replace your long complex wallet addresses, verify ownership of your NFTs and join the 10’s of thousands of people who are now using their NFT domain as their Twitter and Discord usernames. Go to unstoppabledomains.com and get YourName dot crypto, dot x, dot nft or a range of other endings for as low as $5 and never worry about gas or renewal fees because with Unstoppable Domains you pay once and own forever! ======================= Nasdaq-listed BTCS was the first US-public company to secure today’s top layer one protocols. Recently, BTCS launched the beta version of its digital asset analytics dashboard! From across multiple exchanges, the BTCS Data Analytics Dashboard lets you evaluate your entire portfolio’s performance with plans to add year-end reports and yield earning on your crypto through linking to staking pools. Test out the BTCS Data Analytics Dashboard today at BTCS.com. =======================

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Christian Angermeyer is the founder of Apyron Investment Group. In this conversation, we talk about everything from Bitcoin to macro to Fed policy to longevity and psychedelics. Christian is one of those people who has his hands all over disruptive technology and is one of my favorite people to talk about in the world. I really hope that you enjoyed this conversation. But before we get into this episode, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. Today's episode is brought to you by Abra. Based in California and backed

by top VC firms, Abra is an all-in-one, simple, secure app that allows you to trade over 110 cryptocurrencies, get 0% interest loans using your crypto as collateral, and earn interest with up to 14% APY on stablecoins and 8.15% APY on Bitcoin. You can join nearly 2 million users by downloading Abra from the Google Play or Apple App Store. If you download the app today, you'll get $15 in free crypto once you fund your account. You can go to Abra.com to learn more. You came, you invested, now conquer. Abra. Conquer crypto. Abra.com. Go check it out today. Today's episode is brought to you by Unstoppable Domains. Unstoppable Domains is the number one provider of NFT domains. These aren't traditional domains. These are domains with superpowers.

With your unique NFT domain, such as Pomp.Crypto or Pomp.NFT, you can replace your long, complex wallet addresses, verify ownership of your NFTs, enjoy the tens of thousands of people who are now using their NFT domain as their Twitter and Discord usernames. Go to UnstoppableDomains.com and get your name, .crypto, .x, .nft, or a range of other endings for as low as $5. And never worry about gas or renewal fees because with Unstoppable Domains, you pay once and you own it forever. Head on over to UnstoppableDomains.com today to check out more about what they've got. Again, go there and you can get any domain with any ending for as low as $5. UnstoppableDomains.com. Today's episode is brought to you by BTCS. BTCS is a NASDAQ-listed company.

It's the first U.S. public company to secure many of the top Layer 1 protocols. This quarter, BTCS just launched the beta version of a new digital asset analytics dashboard. from across multiple exchanges the btcs data analytics dashboard lets you evaluate your entire portfolio's performance with plans to enable year-end reports and yield earning on your crypto by linking to btcs staking pools this groundbreaking dashboard is currently in beta mode test out the btcs data analytics dashboard now by visiting btcs.com again that's btcs.com go check it out. Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat

any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. All right. Christian is here. How are you, sir? Good, good. Are you ready? next yeah all right we got a lot of stuff to go over um first let's start with the macro stuff uh you have a very unique um background and that you know pretty much every macro investor in the world spent a lot of time talking to them over the last decade or decade and a half um interest rates seem to be the most important data point in the world right now what are your thoughts on

maybe us kind of fed related interest rate decisions and then globally, how do you look at this and evaluate what's going to happen here? Well, so, uh, first of all, thanks for having me. Uh, right. First, really first thing after the holidays, I came in, uh, last night. Um, so I'm still need to get my brain up to speed, you know, two weeks of holidays, like you slow down and you're like chilled out. Now I need to be like, my first thing is need to be super smart. so yes as you said by the way so i'm not a macro guy myself so i'm building companies um and uh but i'm a i think if you build companies and invest so we're doing both at a pyrone yeah we we start in companies ourselves and we're investing in as you said disruptive tech and biotech

companies you have to have a feeling and understanding for what's driving the world and as we all know yeah the the big drive of the last decade was cheap money yeah so my view is that how do i simplify it first of all i think the and i know it's maybe not the most uh mainstream few i still think a big part of the inflation we see is transitory uh because it's mainly driven yes we pumped a lot of money in it but it's mainly driven by supply chain issues which are because of covid and the insane way a lot of countries and parts of america are handling it so somewhere we're gonna go back to normal yeah somewhere um and then with a time delay obviously But I think when supply chains go back to normal, at least part of that inflation, not all of it, but part of it will go away.

And I do think, and also from discussions I have with politicians especially, they know that. But now comes the bot, we are in an election year in America, and I think we all can agree that sort of the independency of central banks in generally, let's say, at least has suffered over the last years, to say it friendly. So I think the deal Powell has with Biden is, hey, you're going to be reappointed because a lot of people thought he's not going to be reappointed. But you have to be at least verbally hawkish before the midterm elections, because that is what is driving Americans. Americans want to see the president and the administration doing something against inflation. Truth is, the thing they can do is go back to normal as soon as quickly. yeah but that's not the message people want to hear and we live in this weird world where it's all about messaging and politically correctness and blah blah blah so my view is yeah there is a

mandate powell got to before the midterm elections to talk about more hawkish than the fed ultimately will be yeah in order to support um the midterm elections so is it fair to say that um on the way up let's call it the fed basically presented their view and we're like hey inflation is not going to be a problem don't worry about it okay now it's going to be transitory we saw some articles from the media saying inflation is good for you you know the whole thing but they essentially lagged on their enthusiasm for how hot the market would get and now as we go kind of in the other direction they're basically going to talk about a really kind of dovish hawkish however you want to talk about it um situation and they're going to do so in a way that uh if

they talk about it is really bad but it ends up not being as aggressive in their moves then in some way they get the expectations driving down spending driving down asset prices and it you know there's a belief that like the more you talk about inflation the more that it shows up the more that you talk about we're going to combat it i think their thought process is that actually it'll kind of come down i think the main thing is really election driven yeah of the talking it down but i think it was a good summary but ultimately to to end sort of my thought process like ultimately because you had Yasin on, I think actually Cathy is right. So very simplified, if you look at what's happening

in the world in terms of technological disruption, that is overall very deflationary. And actually years ago, some years ago, people were really worried about deflation. Now they're worried about inflation. I think it's going to fall back to a healthy level. A little bit of inflation would be actually good. And I do think overall the sort of dovish,

yeah so soft fed and ecb anyway because europe is in a worse shape economically yeah the the soft central bank sort of policy will stay maybe we don't have zero interest rates by the way but that's also really very crazy like but i think everything we are interested in we i mean like you me like bitcoin asset prices for disruptive technology companies we can totally live with one or two percent interest rates maybe even three yeah i think everything which would go beyond three percent interest rate in the long run that would be sort of hurtful for innovation valuations of tech companies but a little bit back to one to two percent is actually healthy because if i look back a year ago sort of in the in the hype or in the in the heights of the bubble

of everything there was also a little bit of i think you can't say it on the show what is the shit world like there was a lot of bullshit finance yeah there's a lot of bullshit so and i think it's healthy when it comes back to a little bit of normal but i do think markets at the moment for growth stocks if i look at biotech stocks or look at some of my own portfolio companies if i look at bitcoin it's an overreaction and i do think though that we're going to have a pretty challenging first half year because people will need to navigate that hawkish at least verbally hawkish fed like economy not really picking up so i think it's a it's a tough year to navigate or a tough first half year but i do think in the second half year we kind of going

back to the old paradigm with a little bit more rationality and a little bit less uh craziness okay so let's say that they do raise rates which i think uh most people think that they will but they probably won't do it three times as severely as no they will but like i think they will do it in a sort of reasonable way yeah so let's say they do that and our expectation would be that um risks assets or kind of technology growth stocks whatever they all are going to sell off to some degree they already have they already have i think they already have but and maybe they go lower maybe they don't how long can they last with those risk assets selling off or is there a period where they kind of capitulate from like the fed level and they're just like okay like

this is enough bleeding to some degree we either need to stabilize the rate and go ahead and tell the market we're not going to raise past a certain point or they need to provide more quantitative easing or use one of the other tools in their toolbox where they kind of try to find like a almost like a market equilibrium right we were going up a time now we're going down like do they eventually just try to stabilize us somewhere and say like okay enough is enough on the downside like here's where we want to stay well that's an interesting point because actually in in a normal sort of central bank policy the fed shouldn't be worried about asset prices like the Fed should be worried about inflation.

And then lately they expanded the mandate and said we should be worried about employment numbers. Yeah, but they shouldn't be worried about that. But remember, they were day trading the assets. Yeah, the fact is I do think they are. By the way, I do think it is smart from them to be worried because, but that's sort of my geopolitical view. I think we all agree the US is in kind of a silent war

with China, and I think at the end it's not going to go into an armed conflict but what will decide sort of this conflict or this race is the speed of technological innovation so if i would be sitting in an administration yeah i would think day and night how can i make sure that my country the u.s is sort of at the forefront of every technological innovation and i know a lot of media people and investors made a little bit of fun and yes there was like craziness in the market where things which maybe are not worth anything or not worth a lot we're hyped but if i if we take a step back and look at the last 10 years or especially the last let's say three years five years actually because of the let's

call it easy money a lot of great stuff was financed so a lot of things which are positively happening now yeah are happening because money is cheap and money is easy but it's driving our society and technological innovation forward so i would actually say i think they will never admit it but i personally do believe that sort of a thriving environment for growth stocks yeah not to make that's the cynical view the rich richer but actually to make the country more competitive towards especially china yeah is a strategy the fed is um is the administration again i think it's almost intermingled administration and fed is doing yeah and it's the right thing to do i do think though for this year as i said before the political agenda prevails so i think the fed will

more focus on sort of appeasing people and trying to show we're doing something against inflation than fostering innovation so i do think growth stocks won't have an easy year but i'm again i'm just want to quote her because i think she she wrote this awesome piece uh uh kathy wood before like it was right around christmas uh where she had this term like actually growth stocks are in deep value territory and i think so they already sold off so again i'm not a trader yeah i build companies i own all the stocks for a long time but my gut feeling is like uh if i look again at some of my portfolio companies which i can charge the sell-off was crazy yeah and it's extremely undervalued yeah when when you think about um an asset like maybe bitcoin for example right which

to me is like the ultimate risk asset from the traditional world now many people in the crypto market would say hey bitcoin is you know booburn coin or it's the least risky of all of them um and the long tail of crypto assets are even more risky so take those people out of for a second just at the traditional market side they look as bitcoin as kind of the the digital frontier or the most risky asset uh should we expect that to be the leading indicator of risk assets or actually is it decoupling like how do you look at the relationship between like a bitcoin and some of these growth stocks and other things? Should they move in tandem?

Maybe it doesn't matter. Like, what do you think? It's a good question because like, I do think factually they move in tandem. I think they should decouple, but they sort of don't, at least not on these days and weeks when the swings are broad.

I think if we would look, if we will look back in like five years, I think there will have been a certain decoupling. But at the moment, I think they still very much correlated. Yeah. Because it's the same people, like in a positive way,

who is excited about Bitcoin? It's sort of rather the younger people. More and more institutions are moving in, but it's sort of the Miami crowd. Who is excited about disruption or whatever? Again, the Miami crowd. It's sort of, there is, I think, not because the assets are somehow,

or the asset class are related. It's more like that the people who get it, there is a big overlap between the believers in crypto, and especially in Bitcoin, and the believers in disruptive technology. You said Miami crowd, so I'll go there. You spend your time all over the world,

also in LA, New York, many places here in the United States. What is the Miami crowd to you? What does that mean when you say that terminology? Well, lately it's completely associated with crypto, which I think is a good thing. I think it's always good. I mean, yes, I know crypto is very decentralized

and everybody's everywhere, but I think it's still good if things have a hub, like Silicon Valley was the hub for the last 20, 30 years. I think it's good if crypto develops a place where, you know, if I come here and I text you, I'm going to be on the show the next day. Like it's I think it's a good thing that people are sort of have a place to mingle and to I still believe in physical stuff like you want to meet physically, whatever. So, yeah. So that's a little bit of an association for Miami. Okay.

And before we talk about a couple of the different companies that you have, just give us your general views right now on Bitcoin cryptocurrency in terms of at Appirion. You guys have a ton of different stuff going on. And you play in a bunch of different markets. You play in crypto, you play in longevity, psychedelics, a ton of different disruptive technologies. How do you think about Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies as part of that portfolio? And how do you think about it in terms of investing

versus building companies in the space? Okay, yeah, so if I break it down, so in a pyrone, we have like three themes or sectors we're dealing with. We're doing biotech, we are investing in crypto and fintech, which is for me very related. And then we have a third pocket, which we call future tech.

this is everything from AI to space tech we're actually one of the largest investors especially in European space tech companies to novel foods like lab-grown meat protein replacements, whatever and then in these three sectors we both start companies ourselves so especially when we have an original idea

and one of my sort of favorite examples for that is Atai, my psychedelics company which I started in 2018 when I had the idea before because I love psychedelics personally to bring back psychedelics as medicine therapeutics for various mental health issues.

So we do start companies ourselves and we also invest in companies. And then we invest from any stage, from seed to growth financing, actually beyond even in IPOs and beyond that we have around about 100 portfolio companies across these three sectors. Okay, so let's talk about Bitcoin and cryptocurrency first

then we'll get to the other sectors you focus on so uh you guys have exposure directly to the actual assets themselves then you have three companies that i know of you have uh cryptology you have uh bullish and you have uh northern data as kind of the three big ones walk us through those three companies and kind of how each one's doing and what you see going on there uh yeah so let's start with cryptology because cryptology is just sort of the umbrella so i decided like when Worcester's like 2018 actually together with Mike Novogratz. So I owe him a lot because he sort of introduced me, um, to these exciting field actually very early. If I would have listened to Mike's a big shout out because Mike in 2014 told me to buy Bitcoin and really relentlessly.

And I didn't do it that many. I started in 2016. So not too late, but like, but still so big, uh, thank you. Hopefully he's watching, uh, to Mike. So Mike and I, uh, started cryptology together, which sort of is a holding and it's in the meantime listed so people can buy into it encompasses actually all my crypto investments. So all my crypto investments are exclusively done via cryptology. So that's the umbrella. And in cryptology you have, as you said,

Northern Data as one of our main assets which is about, and I can give you some numbers later, is about to become one of the largest miners both for Ethereum and for Bitcoin globally. then we have a stake in block one and that's practically how we have an indirect stake in bullish because so far maybe some of the viewers know

bullish is a subsidiary 100% subsidiary or in the meantime they did a financing not 100% anymore but majority subsidiary of block one but it's SPAC actually so it merged with a SPAC and when the merger is closing hopefully in the first quarter

then it's traded sort of separately as a new kind of exchange so we have that block one and, uh, bullish. Um, so let's talk Northern data first. Uh, Northern data obviously is a very large miner. Um, what's going on there? How big is it? What, what are they up to? Uh, well in some numbers, like they just, they do now a monthly reporting, which I think is really handy. Um, so in, um, uh, two, uh, in December they had, uh, 18,000 ASICs miners online and running, which created around about 227 BTC.

And the amazing thing is, so Arush, the CEO, is one of the best guys I've ever worked with, so I love him. And he secured really massive amounts of both of ASICs miner and GPU miners in mid-2020. So I will never forget that when he pitched that to me, when the world was still like mid-last year. I mean, we forget how quickly the world has changed.

So in mid last year, he was like, hey, we have to buy a large amount of equipment because back then it was super cheap. Just the equipment prices alone have multiplied. And because Northern Data deployed so much capital last year, both in ASICs and GPUs, they actually have now prime relationships with the chip producers, which will come in very handy if Northern Data wants to grow even beyond. But just what they have now, end of 2022, they're going to have 110,000 ASICs, miners installed, which will roundabout make, depending on the hash rate, whatever. But roundabout, my estimate, my personal one is 1,500 Bitcoin per month, which somehow will be, again, say there is Paribus, whatever the hash rate is developing.

yeah this will be like 10 exahash roundabout which my gut feeling is should be like five percent plus of the entire bitcoin network so meaning a massive a massive very big thing and then at the same time they uh they bought 223 000 gpus which is one of the largest if not the largest gpu cluster in the world yeah which they use to mine at the moment mainly ethereum which gave them last month 5 700 ethereum and that's going to be stable because they already deployed all the gpus while the asics miner they already have them but actually they were they lagging behind i mean planned behind but like the it took a little bit uh to build all the data centers so practically the asics miner which i said which will run up to 110 000 to the end of the year it's they already

there so they have it it's not like uh like a lot of people announce at the moment oh we want to buy in the future yeah they already have it they just need to get it online yeah so in total i think they're gonna be against ceteris paribus that we don't know what the future but like if i look at the bitcoin prices as of today yeah uh and the ethereum prices northern data should be on a run of around about 100 million dollar 80 to 100 million dollar per month generated bitcoin and Ethereum, which is pretty cool. That's pretty good. What about Bullish? One more thing, because what I also love with Northern Data, because it's why I think Arush is such a genius CEO, it's not just that at the moment they're mining, but I also think there will

be a convergence of using your data center for mining, especially on the GPU side, and using your data centers for industrial use like AI companies needed. And AI in the meantime is not a sector, it's sort of every big industry from pharma to car companies deploys kind of AI, big data, whatever. So the real smart thing of Northern Data, what I'm excited about, is that they have these double business models. So sort of as a baseline almost, they are creating, mining Bitcoin and Ethereum, which, as I said, should, again, say it was probably bring like $1,800 billion a month once they fully, and then they're going to grow further, but just once they have installed what they have in storage now already. But then if, especially for the GPUs, if tech companies are coming,

if pharma companies are coming, car companies are coming, and rent part of this GPU cluster for more than what they would get with Ethereum mining, they're going to rent it out. so practically it's sort of they either as a default they can always say hey we mine ourselves so we always fully um fully utilized but if somebody needs that capacity uh and pays northern data much more than again than ethereum mining will bring then they rent it out so it's a really smart yeah uh business model okay now bullish uh you guys through block one took a bunch of bitcoin right you basically started an exchange there's a lot of liquidity now because you have all of this

uh this uh bitcoin that's there you've done the SPAC uh what's updates on uh what's going on with bullish so they started yeah um in beta and it's now broadly rolled out and uh meaning they had already billions of dollars meaning if you if you follow bullish on twitter they every some days they report like and already like on the week one or whatever it was it was like yeah if i just look at at bitcoin i think it was around about 15 or something of the trading volume of coinbase in bitcoin obviously coinbase has much more but like just like after some days because brandon really developed sort of this genius together with tom who's the incoming ceo um developed sort of this genius way to provide unprecedented liquidity depths yeah and if you

if you if you look what exchanges are they are a commodity and especially institutional investors will always go to the most liquid exchange and i think with the algorithm and the business model bullish is, um, is doing, they by default, so to say, um, will be always the, or one of the most liquid exchanges. So I'm extremely part of the world, like extremely bullish on bullish. I love it. Um, all right. I want to talk about longevity. Uh, first I want to start with what you do from a longevity standpoint. I recently was listening to, uh, Andrew Huberman and David Sinclair did a podcast together and I I've, I'm very intellectually interested in a bunch of the things that they talk about because some of them are very counterintuitive, right? So, uh, for those

that are listening at home who haven't looked at a lot of this stuff, uh, there's a simple example of, uh, David Sinclair and his colleagues, uh, have run tests where you can give, uh, an animal a certain number of calories and they can eat kind of throughout the day, that number of calories, or they can basically not eat at all except for a small window of time, eat the same number of calories, but has a different impact on your body. And it's things around,

hey, your body basically doesn't get a break when you're eating all throughout the day versus if you basically just eat all at once, then it has a different impact on it. And so what they're optimizing for is longevity. Other people have different diets and things they do, different routines, protocols, whatever for things that they're optimizing

that may not be longevity focused. I know you're interested in longevity. What do you do to try to live longer? okay so first of all by the way you you said something very smart like it's and it's like it's what are you want to optimize for that is always when people ask me what shall i take what are you taking it's like really be honest to yourself do you want to and for example like someone optimized for looks yeah which is not always the same than longevity like if you want to take human growth hormones it's amazing yeah but uh it's maybe i think it's neutral by the way

for longevity but like you know what i want to say like it's always yeah what do you want to optimized for so my interest in longevity is double so i let's start with briefly and then i come to the supplements then we can go to science again i deeply believe that over the next 20 years plus minus i think it's going to go actually faster than we think yeah we're gonna slow down hold and ultimately actually reverse aging and that's gonna happen Why? Because we have already, and David is a very good friend working with him. Yeah. We have already understood what aging is. Um, it's a complex disease. It's not just one disease. Like another colleague of mine, uh, Manuel Serrano, uh, coined this term, like there is these nine

hallmarks of aging. Yeah. These are nine, nine thematic things which go practically wrong. but like i think humanity has one great track record always when we have realized and understood a problem someone we're going to solve it and i'm going to think there's something going to happen the next 20 years so what i'm solving for with my nutrition plan um is that i'm not dying the next 20 years because i do think dying in the next 20 years is the most stupid time to die yeah and it sounds actually like like i'm 43 now so i'm most likely statistically i'm here in 20 years but it's not a hundred percent given if i would talk to my 10 year old godson he doesn't need to worry he's gonna be there anyway unless he has an accident yeah but like with 43 yeah

there is sort of a risk that whatever actually there's two risks there's uh if if i don't have cancer in the next 20 years and if i don't have a cardiovascular disease and if i don't have an accident yeah but these three things then very very likely i'm gonna be here so my whole diet and intake of therapeutics is focused on not getting cancer, not getting a cardiovascular disease, being here in 20 years roundabout when the real stuff sort of comes.

Because then I think the game is on because like people always think like, oh, when somebody says, and I deeply believe that we can live for some hundred years. And I do think we here in the room will live or have the opportunity to live for some hundred years.

It's not going to happen from one day to the other. There won't be one magic pill where we say, okay, now we take it. and now we live till 300 years, but it's going to be a gradual shift. Yeah. And there is this famous thing, like one day we gonna win more years per year than the one year we lose. And that's then sort of the point when sort of optionality is on. And, and by the way, also, I do believe we don't want to live forever because people, interestingly, I just want to mention it,

maybe not in this sort of crowd, but like I actually was on holiday with friends and there one said like oh no like this is sort of not right and i was like hey a i do think we don't want to live forever forever is a really long term yeah but i i think it's the ultimate liberation for humanity yeah um and sort of it fills in my libertarian fuse that you decide yourself when you want to end this yeah so i'm you think people are going to do that yes i mean i'm very sure you think people are going to have the ability to live forever and one day they're You're like, all right, man, pull the plug. Forever, never going to happen

because someone in the earth is going to end up. There is always an accident risk. And if you play it out long enough, statistically, you're going to have an accident. No, this is what people came here to listen to. So here's, I got a couple of questions. Right now, average life expectancy, 77, 78 years old, 79 years old,

somewhere in that range, I think, or at least in the US. It's 85. In Europe, it's 85. I just looked it up in the United States for men, it's 78, 79 years old. Yeah, that's the US. In the United States, men.

I think women are a little bit more like, okay, let's say around 80. so in europe of course they live longer because they got a better life uh so basically your argument is the following if you survive for the next 20 years right you're kind of in your early 40s you'd be early 60s at that point we've really started to kind of hit the exponential growth of uh we're gaining more years than we are losing on on a 12-month period so how far can we go if let's say we're at 80 on average right now globally for average life expectancy can we get it to 100 in the next 20 years can we get it to 200 like just how much i think it's gonna life in

the next 20 years by the next 20 years i think we're gonna go over 100 yeah um i think there's there's three um sort of steps we that's a big jump yeah it's 10 years 20 years in the past 20 years we've only gained two years in the united states it was 76 and now it's 78 so that's a big jump for us here at least yeah and and several reasons the one is like hopefully i get the number right because a colleague really did the math by the way james did the math whom you had on as well uh james pyre i think some months ago uh who's a company i founded as well with him together cambrian so we did the math like what would happen if if we solve cancer yeah and interestingly statistically this would add i think the number we came up with was like around about

three years just because people think oh we solve cancer we're gonna live 10 years longer but then somebody something else hits you that's actually the the fickle thing with aging yeah if you solve one thing you're going to have a stroke you're gonna have so you need to solve these are these nine hallmarks of aging you need to solve many problems at once but i think it's solvable so then the one question we're going to encounter which nobody has to really answer we have a hunch is that is there a natural limit yeah so my view is like let's just test it out like i'm happy if we go towards 100 because there are some scientists who think like okay there might be like sort of kind of a natural limit of 100 110 and when you reach that even if you don't till actually till

100 or at the moment till these 80 years or whatever people normally die of something they don't die of exhaustion they die of cancer whatever so let's assume we can eliminate all of that yeah so then there is one theory to be tested yeah do we die of sort of exhaustion like a car which just doesn't run anymore without having one single thing if that's the case okay at least we gain 30 more years. I think that's my view on everything in life. Why not try? Like I'm an uber optimist.

And if people love at me or love about me in 50 years and say, okay, there was this dreamer who thought we can add hundreds of years and he added with his work 10 years. I'm like, well, it's fucking amazing. I added 10 years to humanity's lifespan. Like, so let's gradually work on that. So then the second big question is,

do we stay um a body-based species or can we someone change that so what does that mean well there is one idea so there's two ideas how you can look at longevity the one is like we're gonna repair the body we have yeah or even prevent it someone from aging because we completely control yeah um with um uh whatever crisper i mean we have so many new intervention mechanism in in sort of life yeah that that there is the possibility that we kind of control our body and our mind in a way or control like keep it functioning that we're gonna be a body-based species yeah and are happy with it because we can repair the body all the time replace stuff whatever and by the way so then you have then you have the other extreme view can we someone get rid

of our body just take what is actually defining what is what is pomp what is christian like our mind yeah whatever that that means and our soul yeah and upload that into a computer or any other structure so get rid actually of the body which is the part which is aging and and decaying yeah and then there is the the opportunity the possibility in between which is i think where it's going yeah that you sort of merge with technology which by the way we do already now if you have a what's the english term if you have a pacemaker yeah you are a mini cyborg yeah we're just very used to a pacemaker yeah you have other people have replacement hips exactly so so just think that 50 years ahead maybe we just replace whole body parts with technology but still

stay kind of in this world but my again i'm i don't know it yeah i'm betting on a lot of different things so both on sort of rejuvenating our body why because i think we need more time do i think we're going to have sort of the opportunity or ability to really take our consciousness or however you want to call it and put it in a computer in 20 years no so but again what i'm looking for is optionality because in the next hundred years a lot of things crazy things which we can't even imagine because by the way one of the trickiest thing is in the moment we merge with machines or we upload ourselves every prediction way or every hunch fails because then we lose

but it sounds negative we change I want to say neutral from being what we define now if I make assumptions about what you want what you're doing

I do it because I know that you're human and that you have a certain humans are different but overall we have a certain way of feeling, thinking, looking at things that might completely change

if we do certain interventions and then sort of all the opportunities are are on the table anyway okay so there's there's a split in the conversation right because we can go to like the cyborg uh brain computer interfaces all that leave that to the side for a second but we should talk about it because i can't give you examples which you believe is sci-fi which is already happening today okay let's go what is it so i bet you i believe it that is real but go ahead so no so one of my favorite uh portfolio companies i have is blackrock neurotech it's

finally called like the asset manager but like been there around since a long time so so blackrock neurotech yeah if somebody wants to look it up because they have what do they do as a brain computer interface so they have crazy videos online because yeah they are actually they years ahead of what any other wannabe brain computer interface company wants to do because they are the only ones who have people who have their brain computer interface so they have an fda approved already inhuman yeah and i think i don't want to say the wrong moment it's around about 30 people three zero yeah who have so practically everything except every human except one in the world who has a brain computer interface has it from blackrock neurotech so at the moment they just allow to give

it to people who are completely paralyzed or have any other of severe disability like okay so for example one patient has als um and als i don't even know like it's practically locking you into your body and some when you lose every motorical ability including speaking so but they are completely there they are completely sane mind which i think is horrible like you're frozen in your body so and and blackrock gave one als patient their uh they're really a chip into the brain and this guy can think of words and the computer is speaking for him yeah which is by the way kind of telepathy um and now think about it and i'm very careful because i know it's this is actually one of the things which is interestingly scaring a lot of people i think it's awesome like

we could obviously give it a second person and at the moment it's like brain of the patient to the computer and the computer speaks it out but the bread the computer could also send sort of the words to the other person yes yeah and the feeling of the the black rock guys is this is maybe five years away that we can do that question is do we as society want to do that but this is what i mean with changing a little bit what we are so is speech and us speaking to each other is it actually what makes us human or is it something which is actually completely archaic yeah and actually rather hindering us so if i think about it philosophically i think the need of speaking is burdening us because a we already have a lot of languages in the world and i don't

speak all of them yeah then as we know if you're married like there is a lot of communication things which can go wrong even if you speak the same language yeah or if you if you talk to a child and you see like you try to explain a three-year-old something and you see he already shut down yeah um think about it you could send now a whole concept or a whole vision or a picture or whatever you want to send that would make actually us i think better humans because we could leave behind a lot of the misunderstanding yeah we have as humanity and and actually um transmit more complex sort of thoughts than language can do is there a world where we live to like 110 and no one talks to each other well you do what it's a point you would talk to each

other you're rephrasing it negatively you just wouldn't do it with your mouth you would think and send your thoughts yeah and you still would communicate yeah you wouldn't need yeah but we gonna go there like yeah and and blackrock is uh but there's this other guy by the way he did an nft which was so cool because like there i i think this is one of the bravest and coolest fighter uh fighters his name is nathan copeland he had an accident he's completely um uh paralyzed from here on he got the blackrock uh chip inside and he can move an electronic arm yeah with his thoughts and you might think now it's just an arm but for that guy that is huge deal a huge deal and he actually has drawn a picture with his mind it was the very first time in history obviously

that somebody drew a picture of his mind which then was actually auctioned off to support his sort of um his work but also his living yeah um as an nft but so so and if i if i project that 10 years again this is brain computer interface is one of the things where i'm like people think it's sci-fi it's already here the big question will just be do we want it as society just for very disabled people which i think is a no-brainer obviously you want to give people who can't walk the ability to walk you want that or do we want to give it somewhere to healthy people to really change the way we interact with machines and with each other there's a clear pattern here right so psychedelics medicinal use cannabis medicinal use right for something like

this the brain computer interface medicinal or kind of health related use cases right and you kind of that's where you start and then it's just what does society want in terms of kind of past that health related piece i think by the way it's one thing because like what we all know i think every every gamer and crypto person loves it ready player one yeah this is like from my point of view 10 years, not more away. In 10 years, if you want it, and if we wanted a society, I always have to say that, if the regulator allows it, you will be able, you don't need glasses, you don't need a suit, you're going to get an implant. Because again, what is making you think that you sit here and talk to me? Yeah, it's all your senses. You're sitting

on a chair so you feel it. Yeah, you're talking to me or you hear me talking, you see me. So it's all your sensoric input. But all of that guaranteed because we're already doing of black rock, we can simulate with a chip in your brain. So in 10 years, you might lie at home in some cryo chamber. Yeah. I might lie at home, but we decided that it's cooler to meet in Miami in a studio and we project ourselves into here and create the entire illusion for ourselves of what it means if I touch the table, whatever. Yeah. And that would also give us the opportunity to go in multiple other worlds because I could create the ready player one world. I was recently watching an interview with Jason Oppenheimer, you know, the guy from Selling Sunset, the Netflix special.

And somebody asked him about, you know, basically what happens to commercial real estate, like all his office buildings, all this stuff. And one of the things that he said that I'd never thought of before but I found interesting was he was like, look, a lot of those buildings could be turned into residential, which I think is okay if people get that far. He goes, but they're not built to be residential. So you could literally have kind of like a more of a smaller apartment building. He goes, but ultimately, if you have an interior apartment where there are no windows or anything today, he's like, what is the difference between you actually looking out the real window and seeing sunlight versus if you have a screen that is projecting a window that looks realistic, that has natural sunlight coming through. he's like in some way the artificial control of it may be just as good if not better than the ability to rely on what is the actual weather outside so you can almost to some degree like trick your sensory uh system yeah and you're doing it with a screen and it has the same impact as

like sunlight does from like your mood or whatever now there's an alternative argument right there like it's not real sunlight and and all that type of stuff but i found that like fascinating would you guys uh implant the chip if uh if it was used for like non-medical purposes yeah i mean it depends what the benefits are i think like on a total level if you can live longer if you can communicate with people if you can go to different areas then maybe i'll let a couple people test not the first one would you i'd have to think about it yeah and what the risk is what you would think about or the benefits the risk the benefits are pretty clear i think right It's the ability to not put your body in harm because your body is probably the biggest limiting factor.

Obviously, brain deteriorates as well over time with Alzheimer's and all the other stuff. But your body is probably your most limiting factor with the longevity piece, and that could save you. Yeah. All right. So let's say that that is the longevity slash improvement to quality of life from a technologist's perspective. Technologists are going to keep working on technology. For you as an individual, I know you do a whole bunch of different stuff. there's things that are just like risk management so maybe you can talk about not driving on the autobahn as much as possible yeah as well as one thing and then we can talk maybe about like your

diet and kind of any supplementation or anything you do from like a protocol standpoint no and many people might it's it's a funny example but I really meaning although I'm German I don't go on a German autobahn we had actually the thing on Christmas because sort of I saw my parents in Germany but then we were going together to Austria yeah and my father who is if he's watching he's very healthy he's 70 and he would kill me for that but i always say look i don't want to go on a german autobahn anyway but especially not with a 70 year old driver yeah so so my parents were driving because they love driving yeah to austria with their car and i was literally driving in parallel to austria to our place for christmas with the train yeah uh so i'm not so if i meaning

sometimes i have to like if i have to go to an airport for a bit but i really i guess if you believe and i really believe what i'm saying like that we have the opportunity to live very long yeah any form of accident is completely idiotic yeah again the the value of my next 20 years is incredibly more higher than it was for the same person 100 years ago because yeah there it was just 20 years if i do a mistake in the next 20 years i may be giving up hundreds of years and by the way i'm so excited i always can say that like about where the world is going and now we so many people turn pessimistic and we always because the media is always focusing on the negative stuff but like everything i see in our portfolio beyond that is is fucking cool

stuff yeah and i want to by the way he won't go on the autobahn because car accidents are one of the numbers exactly my question would be like where does that risk tolerance like where is a barrier on that i'm always reassessing it that's because like you could obviously say if i stay at home and do nothing yeah yeah that would be the best because you can have a plane accident so i do think because i love life yeah it's not that i sort of i'm not afraid of that stuff but i i just want to enjoy life and all the innovation which is coming yeah and in partly which i'm helping building yeah i want to enjoy it and want to be there when the real stuff comes so so i'm just always assessing would i do a bungee jumping no like would i go on an autobahn no yeah roller

coasters yes because we like it and my children love it but like but not the super crazy ones and i'm thinking about that all the time every single time in disneyland i love disneyland yeah um i'm like should i really do that is it worth it yeah and i think it's healthy to to to always think about sort of again i think as an investor you're trained to think in risk reward or an upside downside yeah whatever so on the on the medical side meaning what i was thinking when i came here because i knew you want to ask it i promised because i say that i said that in your last in our last interview as well but like i have these 11 pager which i did together with james pyre from cambrian i actually need to go over it because it is obviously kind of medical advice

which i'm not allowed to give so i need to phrase it in a way with a lawyer but i promised to put it online yeah over the next and this is what you do on a day exactly so this is all the stuff because i'm doing like let me ask high level just high level what people probably want to know what when you think of what you eat from a diet standpoint what do you follow a specific type of diet so i would say by the way so follow me on twitter because i need twitter followers like it's a good thing you need to tease people though but then and i promise i'm gonna because i always get these questions i'm gonna put it online um in the next two three weeks yeah so what is the main things the main thing is actually what you said like intermittent fasting so i haven't eaten

anything today so i'm doing 18 hours with zero calorie intake just water um and and black coffee but no no calorie intake yeah which is by the way you any form of fasting is great that's just the fasting which works for me it's sort of my daily rhythm like other people do five-day fasting and then it normally so i do like 16 to 18 hours no calorie intake why uh you said it it's counter intuitive but like your body goes into like a laundry mode you could say that way like sort of it's flushing out senescent cells it's really rejuvenating and it starts around about hour 14 that you go into that sort of state so so the longer actually you can be if you could be sometimes i make a full day yeah uh without food or without anything that is actually ideal um i

try to not eat a lot of carbs um uh maybe the healthy ones lentils whatever but not the bad wants carbs a pasta blah blah I actually take metformin that is I think sort of from the medical side the most we know potent you said metformin metformin yeah which is actually a diabetes drug but which seems to mimic fasting and then there is a a newer version which actually is interesting because I always have in psychedelics with some people that discussion about patterns like is it allowed to patent psychedelic substances because it's God's given things. And I think patents are inherently important

for drug development, which we unfortunately see with metformin because metformin is a diabetes drug, which is out of patent. It's super cheap. So there are great studies, but not FDA studies. So more like looking at people who take metformin,

how they age, whatever, which suggests that metformin is incredibly healthy, but no pharma company is putting the money up to prove it in an fda-like framework because they can't make money with it so it would be great if metformin is in patent again because people would then hopefully prove it like somebody did it novo nordisk has a drug called ozempic which is also a diabetes drug so it shows by the way that it seems to be that so you take metformin what does it do so it's kind of in a non-medical way it's mimicking fasting got it yeah it's controlling your insulin spike and that whole world of taking food, especially sugar or sugar like

foods, yeah, which makes your insulin spike, whatever that seems to over the course of our life, be one of the drivers for inflammation, cardiovascular diseases, whatever. So metformin sort of in a more complex way than I can describe it now, but it's sort of, sort of bringing that back, bringing that back. And the same is with Zempic, but what I'm saying is like, it's in patent, they proven it. So Sempic now has been FDA approved, not just for diabetes, but for weight loss. Yeah. And for prevention of cardiovascular diseases. Okay. Do you take anything else like NAD or any of these other things? Yes, everything. I take 50 pills a day.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Unpacked. So Metformin, what are the essentials? Metformin, I take NAD plus. What does NAD Plus do for folks? If somebody goes online and reads about it, what is the general idea? It's very longevity focused. David Sinclair, all these guys are obsessed with it. How do you think about adding that?

Well, so there, because I don't want to pretend I'm a specialist for something when I'm not. This is what I'm taking because David explained it to me, what it's doing. So he has a great podcast and I think he also has something online why what the actual mechanism of action is of NAD Plus or the precursor is called nmn and yeah because it's not 100 sure i think how how the body that's

by the way one of the problems of all this stuff is like because it's a lot of that stuff is in a positive meaning anecdotal yeah or at least not massive fda like trials again often because of missing patterns yeah we don't know for example exactly how much so it's all a little bit like yeah uh i just pulled up very quickly uh this is a paper in science uh that basically talks about nad plus and aging metabolism and neurodegeneration right and basically the whole idea is uh a lot of aging comes down to uh metabolism the destruction of your cells the faster deterioration of them etc and so each one of these things i'm assuming that you're taking has some impact some of them are directly some of them are indirectly whatever insulin it all plays into this complex system that

is the human body but that's essentially what you're trying to get at is to slow down the deterioration of the cells or even potentially build building them back up and kind of the the idea that you can reverse your biological age versus your chronological age is you know appears to be possible uh according to some of these guys yeah there's this great study you can do it with human growth hormones like uh there was these i think it was stanford study if if 70 year old men take human growth hormones metformin and DHEA. Um, and then the question is, by the way, uh, we coming to an interesting point, what is actually, how do we measure sort of, um, uh, age, like sort of not your age in, in birth years, but in like, uh, like how, how you appear or how

you feel, uh, which we don't have yet. And Stanford was the first one. I think it was Stanford who developed like a scale. We're like, okay, if we give these whatever 20 men, like a human growth hormones metformin and dha how can we measure if they really rejuvenate and they came up with a number of biomarkers whatever which is by the way the one of the tasks we have to do and cambrian james just started a big sort of think tank where we sort of align all let's call it longevity biotech companies because at the moment if you go to the fda and say hey i found the wonder pill yeah which makes us live 10 years longer it's really hard to get an approval or actually even the study approved because you're not solving for a real problem because aging and dying is

not classified as a disease so what all these aging companies do at the moment and this is what cameron for example and i have another one in europe rejuveron these are my two uh aging plays what they're doing is like you have to find drugs which have um an imminent immediate effect on a certain disease yeah um and then you can approve it for that disease but you have a second layer effect that you know okay once i have approved it for this single disease everybody will take it because it's so beneficial yeah i give you one example we're working on one drug um actually pretty advanced yeah so the shortening of the telomeres yeah is all is one other in these nine hallmarks of aging you have you guys just real quick have you guys read uh the telomere effect

no you should read it basically for those uh in the most elementary example uh you know your shoelace you know it has on the end of the shoelace the plastic caps yeah basically every single one of your dna strands has these like essentially caps to them and as they get shorter the shorter your telomeres get basically the more aging you have the shorter your lifespan will be And so there's a bunch of things that you can do, like in immense stress, bad eating, whatever, to accelerate the shortening of the caps. But also the belief is that maybe you can slow down the shortening or potentially could you reverse it? Could you actually extend back the cap so that you're essentially reversing kind of the negative effect on television? And it's amazing, like perfectly explained.

I don't just know about Bitcoin, but I just like talking about Bitcoin. fascinating um so and you have a childhood disease and everybody of us has seen that because once in a while the media is like oh look at this child it's like looks like an 80 year old but it's 19 like so there is a disease where the telomeres shrink and shorten in rapid speed and then unfortunately children who have this disease look with 15 like an 80 year old which is showing like so so we have a drug yeah in phase one but so a little bit advanced but not years away but like sort of in the middle of drug development. Yeah. Which we think has the potential to cure their childhood disease. So that is a real disease. I can go to the FDA. It's actually even

an orphan disease. So I can get very quick approval because these children are dying when they are 20. Yeah. But obviously if I get a drug approved, which stops shortening of the telomeres for these children, very clear use case, then I would take it as well if it stops the shortening with my telomeres. Yeah. So, and this is at the moment how all, um, longevity companies do these work around. So they, if they find a molecule or a compound and they have an assumption, but they always have to prove it in a concrete disease. Um, and I hope, and this would be lobbying for that in some years, the sooner, the better, uh, especially the FDA as the sort of number one regulator in the world is saying well let's define biomarkers which define aging

and if you can change these biomarkers positively so if you sort of can slow down and provenly slow down aging we do approve that we could because we agree with you this is what it is aging is a disease yeah and we have to sort of solve it so a lot of people may not know this i invested in a company uh it is called nucleus genomics and what i wanted to pull up was exactly what they how they describe what they do so i didn't screw it up um but basically uh at the moment they don't do any of the testing or kind of lab collections so you if you went to 23andme or any of these other ones and already got the dna collected um usually those folks are doing it for ancestral purposes right there's um kind of a societal hey i want to know where i came from who i'm related to all that

stuff uh what these guys do is you can upload your genetic information that you have obtained through a different company so you download your results you go you upload it into here and what they are trying to do is they're using proprietary algorithms to calculate uh polygenic risk scores so measuring disease risk based on the analysis of the genetic variants uh and then basically display them in a simple way so they say hey you have a higher propensity for x or a higher propensity for Y. Eventually, the idea is that they'll push further and further into areas of genetic analysis that today may not be as kosher or well understood, etc. So for example, and this is not necessarily what they're going to do, but let's just go to the absolute extreme. If you go

to the genetic analysis kind of industry, I think a lot of people would say the most taboo thing to analyze genetics for is basically, do you have a genetic propensity to be intelligent or stupid? Right. A lot of people don't want to go there. They don't want to talk about that. They don't want to understand all that type of stuff. And so when you look at somebody like a nucleus genomics, they seem to be going into what I think is like the next step past 23andMe or Ancestry or whatever. So, hey, not just ancestral purposes, but let's actually start to score your risk for certain types of diseases. Is there a world where literally 20, 40, 50 years from now, every single human is getting scored genetically by some company on, are you smart? Are you not?

do you have a propensity for a certain type of job like how far does this go before you think society kind of taps out and they're like hey like even if we have the information we actually don't want to use it it's a good question i mean first of all like it's gonna happen i think way quicker we don't need to talk about 50 years yeah okay and by the way in a positive way it should happen quickly because it would help us understand and maybe do things better i mean i what i really the two things which bother me in this world is like the one is this sort of overly political correctness. Yeah. Um, because by talking, I think we need to talk about even controversial things in a polite human way. Yeah. Because this is how we come to new ideas, new conclusions,

and actually problems. So there's one, one simple thing is like, if you look, uh, and I don't want to even name now groups because then you get a shit storm. But if you look in certain, uh, areas of the world in certain whatever you see differences in uh for example iq so now people don't want to go there because it's politically very incollect but one of the main factors is for or one of the important factors for iq is childhood nutrition so maybe by not looking at it and saying okay what is correlations between a and b we avoiding coming up and saying oh this sort of country, whatever has a worse nutrition than others for babies. And it's so simple to solve that. It's a little bit like, yeah, I try to stay away from it. You know what

I mean? I don't want to get in this discussion, but like we should, and we should do it in a, in a polite and human and friendly way with the aim to solve diseases, to solve problems, to give people a better life better opportunities whatever so i don't think it's it's sort of bad at all if applied the problem is that again in this politically correct world overly politically correct people always assume the worst they're like oh this is like they're doing it for negative stuff yeah which is i think very sad how um well first of all is there anything else that you take other than uh nad plus metformin like anything that would uh mostly be like okay like this is a piece of that 50 or so supplement regimen that uh that you do that's noteworthy so i think vitamin

d is essential vitamin d yeah okay uh which is also by the way has shown a big correlation between severity of covid um and um and your vitamin d status i wasn't going to say that but yes that is yeah i heard that no that is so that is so obviously true that it's not even controversial like there is there is enough studies which show christian this is the internet nothing is true and everything is true all at the same time especially in covid especially in the u.s thanks god i don't give a fuck like but uh no but vitamin d and anyway that is the covid thing i have to say because like there are but there are these correlations which are obvious yeah yeah and nobody's speaking about it would be so easy if people would say look get your vitamin d supplement

yeah yes before we wear masks whatever and i don't actually even think wearing masks is not bad like i'm not i'm actually actually pro a lot of the things i'm triple vaccinated because obviously i'm in science yeah and i believe in these vaccines yeah yeah you can still get it yeah but you get it way milder yeah people make everything political and that is by the way that is you're saying there's common sense stuff first and then do the scientific stuff yeah do both together it's not mutually exclusive to do common sense and scientific stuff the el salvador uh ad where they have a whole ad campaign obesity right they yeah they basically said uh well they claim that it's their uh covid campaign but they basically have uh people like running through a

park and they say like go outside eat healthy exercise and like get in better shape is is one of the is one of exactly like by the way i mean like why haven't other countries being obese is bad like we shouldn't do body positivity we should be friendly to people and supportive who might have for example medical reasons whatever but we can't say meaning there is no scientific anything which hints to that being overweight is good for you it's just bad like now we're going to start talking about things that i'm very interested in um what is the best way to say this so that people don't get like we're all thinking like what is the soundbite they listen by the way if you disagree with what i say that's fine you have the right to do that just don't be an asshole

about it right no no not you the the audience okay um so so uh there are societal norms that have evolved over time right and those societal norms i think make us feel comfortable they make us feel uh welcoming they make us feel uh better about a whole bunch of different stuff but in many cases they're in direct contradiction to science and i'm not talking about science like uh follow the science that has become like a political statement or a, um, a virtue signal. I'm talking about like legitimate science where people do like real science and there's a, it's true. It's not true. The experiment worked. It didn't work. Right. How do you think about the balance between the societal, like positioning of various topics versus like, no, the site, like the true science.

So let's take obesity as an example, right? I think it's a pretty non-controversial one. Uh, there's not a very strong argument for being fat from a health and science standpoint. I understand why we have a societal evolution on the topic, but how do you balance those two things? Like, is there a balance or like, should society just look at the science and say,

Hey, this is not good. We should actually do everything we can to get people healthier. Or should the scientists be like, look, we understand the science, but like, there's also this societal layer on top of it.

And so we should be more understanding of how society ends up being. Like, how do you think about those two things? Because one is very much like, you know, I keep going back to science, but like, it's like mathematical, it's provable. It's either like, it's true or it's not. Well, yes, by the way, we have to add, because that's also important, we follow the science, like science is never absolute. So we have, we had beliefs like 20 years ago on nutrition, and then we disproven them.

So science, there is not like, there is no person nor an institution in the world who has science always right and it's never evolving. So it's actually the opposite. The whole idea of science is to constantly challenging your own beliefs and science itself. And meaning obviously we have some like gravity, we don't challenge gravity. But like, you know what I mean? Like, but in detail, like I think it's important, a scientific mind is a questioning mind. yeah um but then we have to come to conclusion and say look this is at the moment the best thing we know and we should be able to agree on it so that's the science part yeah so and then i think

what people mix up is like shall we be mean like i think for example that whole discussion with obesity whatever it's like it's an imperative obviously that we're not mean to sort of obese people or that they're not bullied or that they're not in any way like sort of but we mix that up that we shouldn't talk about still obesity having very detrimental health effects. And I think it's actually the pinnacle or the extreme version of being me not to talk about it because I'm giving people the wrong sense of security

and then they're going to have a heart attack or they're going to get cancer or they're going to get a severe of COVID and they don't even know it because a lot of people really take again nutrition, don't know a lot about it. So, so I think we're sort of, I think these political correctness, if we call it like that, is like, was a counter reaction to sort of the hostility, unfortunately, social media has developed. Yeah.

So, and that is actually the good part of it. So as much as I'm against or I think it's like not overly good, like what I like is that sort of the whole woke movement in the early days had the idea of protecting people from harm, from whatever. so and we we from my point of view we would need to we need to find a balance where we say look we can be or we have to be because we're all humans respectful yeah with each other but not holding back to sort of talk about again science and then i think at the end everybody should make their own decision but they should know what their decision is based on that makes sense That's sort of my view between society and science. I think that similar to a large portion,

I don't know if it's majority, but a large portion of, let's say, the American population don't understand how money works. They don't understand what the negative side effects of savings are in high inflationary environments. All these nuances that the more sophisticated of an investor somebody is, the better they understand this stuff

and the more that they're like, let me invest, get me into assets, get me out of just holding cash, et cetera. the same can be said about a lot of especially personal health so this whole idea of like quantifiable self where now we're measuring some of this stuff and i actually think one of the best things that occurred is the apple watch so i wear one guess what i don't track how many steps i take like in terms of i gotta hit a certain number but like they got that stupid little ring and if it's behind you know at a certain point in the day i'm like man i haven't really moved around a lot today

and it's just the the reminder of like move right it is like at the most basic level like that pushes me to do stuff and i think as we get more and more quantifiable self-type things available to people and educate them people are going to start to learn like hey i shouldn't eat that thing i should actually do this instead of uh you know take the uh bus the six blocks maybe i should just walk like you you get into this whole idea of data is power yeah yeah you just educate people and like it's it unfortunately is similar to personal finance um if you grew up in a house where your grandparents didn't teach your parents anything and your parents didn't teach you anything, it's not your fault. It's not their fault either. It's just like nobody in that lineage of

family knew to pass on the knowledge. And so you can kind of break the cycle by going and get educated. You can go on the internet, you can read a book, you can find a mentor. Like there's a bunch of stuff that can happen to help break out. And then it's your responsibility to kind of teach your kids and, you know, kind of change the trajectory of your family lineage. But health is the same thing right if you really think about a lot of families like hey why do when we grew up we ate pasta every single sunday night right why do we do that because guess what my dad wanted to do it why my dad wanted to do it because his family did it because why'd they do it probably because their family you know what i mean like it's just the food that you consume the the

traditions the rituals like all that stuff gets passed down so i do have hope that we're going to break through that stuff now with all that said psychedelics ain't exactly something that's been passed down from family lineage should have all right so uh a lot of people are interested in the psychedelic conversation help me understand first what are you guys doing in psychedelics let's start there and then we'll get into some of the the benefits of this stuff etc but like what do you guys do in psychedelics yeah so so my company atai which is stock market listed um is working on bringing back i have to say because some of these substances used to be medication and some of them are newly used as therapeutics but is is working on making so-called

psychedelics and we have a whole range of it and we also actually have in a tie some non-psychedelic mental health drugs but let's stay with psychedelics bringing them back as a treatment option for various mental health issues which is like depression anxiety addiction post-traumatic stress disorder obesity or any form of body dysmorphia the opposite is anorexia and stuff like that so um really like as a sort of my my aim is with a tie to build and we're on a very good way the leading company for mental health because that is actually the real from my point of view problem of our time everything we discussed the last hour what it was yeah um is on the one side amazing so our world is changing with a speed like we have never seen it before and people like us

love it but unfortunately it seems to be extremely detrimental for our mental health so so if you look like already today mental health is like the number one disease in terms of patients so more than 1 billion people suffer from one or more mental health issues and that's actually just a 2019 number so somewhere now the next month the 2020 mid-20 number will come out yeah and obviously covid gonna my guess is there are some hundred million more people who are suffering from mental health yeah but ultimately i actually believe we all gonna have somewhere in our life mental health issues because the world we we're building unfortunately is very negative for our brain so long story short i think it's the biggest problem of our time yeah and i want to find solutions for

it have you guys ever taken psychedelics i've never done it either we should what in a country where it's legal is not which ones do you recommend so psychedelics a very important disclaimer so two things a in the western world john like yeah no you can't go into that yeah so psychedelics are at the moment illegal in the western world with very few exemptions okay but they are actually legal or not classified so not illegal just like nothing like in in big parts of south america caribbean whatever so there are places where you can do psychedelics practically legally or at least not uh against uh the law so the second disclaimer is that i'm and i'm i am very enthusiastic about it and i do um uh mainly actually uh so-called magic

mushrooms yeah once or twice a year in a country where it's legal um but i want to say it's extremely important all these um let's call it therapeutics and not drugs like all these compounds or many of them have been actually used for thousands of years in spiritual religious traditions but always in a very very controlled way so the 60s were the anomaly so the 60s where timothy leary said hey throw it out of the window whatever out of the plane let's all do it is the anomaly like over 10 000 years humans did it very very controlled controlled by shamans priests and if you look at all the spiritual traditions normally they do it once or twice a year with a shaman together like very guided very focused and this is what i want to recreate

for the 21st century so in the shamans of our time are the psychotherapists so what atai is doing and that's super important we don't want to make these compounds broadly legal like cannabis so it's not the same we see them as therapeutics yeah they are enormously powerful but they need to be taken under supervision with a guide together yeah and in sort of and there is more work to be done it's actually not just sort of the trip itself you have pre-work with the therapist you have post integration all of that so we want to make them medically available as approved therapeutics but just with a therapist so not even prescription and you go home with it but you go to your therapist you will trip in the future hopefully with your therapist yeah and he helps

you then also to understand what you just done and why it's helping you in it is ayahuasca is that considered uh psychedelic yep so so ayahuasca the active ingredient is dmt yep yeah and this is also what a tie is doing so on the psychedelic front a tie has uh psilocybin which is the active ingredient in magic mushrooms via our stake in a company called compass pathways which is separately on the podcast before yeah it's listed on the stock market as well then we have dmt at a tie we have salvia we have a new version of ketamine which is extremely promising and we're going to add several more psychedelics ibogaine is super important yeah because ibogaine is actually one of my sort of favorites not to take it but what it solves because ibogaine has

the potential to completely get people off any form of addiction including opioid and heroin addiction which is obviously here in america especially a huge problem um and so we're developing ibogaine as addiction treatment so that's the psychedelics and then we actually have more than five non-psychedelic mental health drugs as well in total 12 of them so uh a mutual friend of ours i don't want to say his name because i don't know if he'd be comfortable with it told me that uh he went and he did ayahuasca um and uh asked him what it was like and he was like basically i was throwing up everywhere i was shitting my pants like he's like it was crazy but then after the first i don't know six hours 12 hours whatever of like the pain he was like i felt amazing it was

like one of the best experiences of my life i had this like huge spiritual like reckoning and then he started frankly to me at first i was like you sound like a crazy person so he went through this whole thing. And, uh, so he piqued my interest mainly just cause I was like, that was a pretty, uh, intense experience that he described to me. So I went and I started Googling around and I was like, what the hell is all this stuff? I found documentary on, I think it's on Netflix and, uh, in it actually in Florida, there is a guy who, uh, set up a church and because he has a religious exemption he is able to essentially give people i think it's uh psilocybin or ayahuasca i can't remember what one of them and so people go to church and they basically go in his backyard

of this building that he has and they do the entire uh kind of ceremony and all this stuff the most interesting part to me like but and by the way like watching documentary you're kind of like hey man they interview one person like this is a life-changing event i have to come back here like this you know completely solve some huge uh existential crisis that this person was going through and then like in another part of the episode they rush them to the hospital right so like literally the extremes of responses to uh to this but the thing that i took away from it and what i heard you just say is there's a person who's guiding people through this entire experience and that person i think historically uh the shaman or whatever seems to be a person that like i think

a lot of people especially in like south central america think of it almost as like a spiritual guide or whatever i think what you're talking about is more so being like a true therapist almost like a doctor is that kind of how you guys think about it like how does that role of that person change when it becomes more for medicinal uh purposes versus the more spiritual you know i fly to somewhere in south america and do this so first of all i think i know who is the mutual friend and i think we can say it because he's so proud about it that he got a tattoo about it Are we talking about the same one? I'm pretty sure that he said it

on a podcast I did with him. Oh, you're Mike, right? So Mike is very open. And again, a big shout out. So actually Mike is sort of co-responsible for two amazing things in my life for the anti-crypto journey. And then he was the first one when,

so I called two people when I said, I'm going to make psychedelics medically available again. Actually, I talked to more people. And back then, by the way, now everybody's like, there is a Netflix documentary, a Thai stock market listed. It's in the news literally every day. Now it's sort of almost a conventional wisdom that psychedelics will have a role to play in the mental health crisis. But like when I had the original idea in 2017, literally 99%

of people said, you're completely insane and it's not going to work out because they are illegal, they're going to stay illegal. And the two people who really sort of entrusted me first were Mike, who's the seed investor in a tie and peter teal so a big shout out to both for does peter do it too uh well i would never comment on people who uh in generally like there's a little bit like a medical medical stuff but mike mike uh actually went on a on a journey later on when i sort of excitedly told him about he invested first and uh and went on on a journey then he's so convinced when he shows it to everybody like so he definitely showed it on your podcast that he has a jaguar tattoo um and uh but he also understands the importance and the problem mental health can can be or

missing mental health mental health problems can be for our society so he's a great uh great supporter so to your question it's very very hard to almost separate a psychedelic experience or talk about it without using religious terms so it isn't or spiritual let's talk spirit so and this is by the way a side note and if you haven't had him on your podcast you should and there is one big news i can't say it now because i promise not to but like so there is a guy called brian murarescu i don't know if you've heard about him no he wrote one of the best-selling books of the last two years in science it's called the immortality key but it's not about i did i did hear about this yeah so it's not about longevity it's about he has provenly shown

how most religions and cults but including christianity are actually based on psychedelic consumption so because psychedelics give you that sort of yeah spirituality and and you can what it's very hard to describe but once you've done it you completely a understand how many religions are based on it but also you way better know you read the bible you reread it and you're like yeah obviously moses was tripping on dmt by the way so no and the symbol and you loving but like the symbol in because we we reading religious texts without having the context it comes actually back to what we had before like a widely accepted thing is that moses was getting more accepted and unfortunately i if i i should i could show it because like sort of by the way and it's very

interesting how we come like around full circle it's about language so we said before that practically when we talk to each other and using words yeah we're losing so much yeah already with people who live with us at the same time again if you talk to your wife at home i guess you have once in a while the feeling you she just doesn't really understand you yeah but you're talking the same she always understands okay but you know what i want to say yeah she but same age same culture the same language yeah so we're now reading texts of people 5 000 years ago and they might have used pictures and and things which we now take literally because we're like oh there is a burning bush yeah but the burning bush in ancient egypt was the symbol for wisdom being

transmitted yeah and there was a holy bush acacia yeah which contains dmt so an ancient person in back then might have read burning bush and might have immediately understood positively yes he was tripping on DMT. He did practically ayahuasca. Yeah. By the way, which does not diminish in any way that he actually, that proves for me more because on my personal belief, I have my sort of science side where I can say, Hey, we just had with compass pathways, phenomenal face to be results for depression. So scientifically I can say, look, we can tell you, yeah, psychedelics have these enormous potential, dah, dah, dah. But my personal belief is that they are sort of giving you access to something more call it god call it the divine call it your soul whatever

yeah and so i actually saying that moses was tripping on dmt while he spoke to god doesn't make it less credible for me it actually makes it more credible because like oh yeah he had really a tool to access sort of divine wisdom if you want to take it like that so and brian has written this amazing book about it the mortality key where he has again coming back to science he has hard scientific proof because he was teaming up with, I think the title in English is paleopharmacologists. So they were really going to ancient sites and were looking in cups and whatever to find residual traces of what was in these cups. And by the way, another word we completely translate wrongly is the word wine. Yeah. When we read wine in the Bible, in ancient Greek texts, we always think

it's what we consume out of the supermarket yeah but wine in the ancient world world was always spiked with something there were hundreds of recipes and hundreds of different wines there is the wine in ancient egypt by the way you can make it yourself because it's a free seller of psychedelic it's not classified um there is a thing it's called blue lily it's a very weak psychedelic but the ancient egypt's mixed wine with blue lily uh sorry blue lotus blue it's i is the same in english yeah blue lotus yeah and for 24 hours and then it became a sex drug yeah and then they had sort of their cultic uh uh orgies uh on this combination but we read now okay they took wine but it was you know what i want to say so and the same when when the early christians

used wine yeah now we can say we found traces of psychedelics in the in in the cups of the early christian so we can actually provenly say that definitely was it the sole driver of christianity we don't know but like was it part of christianity definitely yes and then sadly i'm very very sort of interested uh in in the origin of religion and actually i i have a personal art collection um which has a lot of these artifacts like for example demeter from the ilusinian mysteries whatsoever but like sadly is if you look at every big organized religion they always started very spiritually or very like yeah it's very uh mystical but unfortunately if you want to become an organization you need to get rid of the traditions which made you grow in the first

place because you don't want a catholic church where every sunday people are taking psychedelics and are shouting i spoke to god and i have this idea no so someone and there is a very interesting document i found um is that the in uh around about 1000 uh the pope was communicating with the german emperor um by the way it's coming back also to cannabis yeah and um so back then not just in wine but also in beer especially the monks were using mind-altering stuff mainly cannabis and psychedelics mushrooms. And this was not well received in Rome because there was a mystic called Hildegard von Bingen. She's a famous actually saint now. So they rehabilitated her later. Yeah. But there were a lot of mystics in Germany around the time who went against the

authority of the church because they were like, this can't be true that the Catholic church in Rome is whatever, doing bad stuff. I spoke to God and this is the way we should lead our life. So the Pope communicated with the German emperor and said, you have to forbid your people spiking beer with bad stuff. And they came up with the first viral marketing idea. They called it the German purity law.

So the emperor said, hey, I forbid that. And in return, he got some, whatever, additional thieftom. So when you think about this, what do you think? Let's just say five years from now, right? We've talked about spirituality, psychedelics, longevity, Bitcoin, etc. Is everyone just going to be taking psychedelics, injecting themselves and consuming a bunch of supplements from a longevity standpoint, holding Bitcoin,

and like the libertarian dream comes true? or what do you think happens in, let's just say like, you know, kind of immediate, like five years, where do you think this stuff all evolves to? Well, I think, let's say with psychedelics, I think in five years, a Thai will have a range of approved medical drugs.

Again, it's not that you take it at a party, whatever, but it, unfortunately, I believe, as I said before, that the mental health crisis will become way bigger. So people will, I think, maybe even preventatively go to their therapist once a year and say, hey, I want to do my psychedelic trip with you. This is why I'm also so convinced about sort of the economic potential of Atai

because we have the solution. And unfortunately, sort of the market or the problem is so big that I deeply, deeply believe Atai can become like a 10, $20 billion business. But it's not going to be like you do it every week or whatever. It's on a psychedelic side.

it's it's a good question on society what what i think what we need more and i said it before we need more like a a polite but sort of intellectually stimulating dialogue where does society want to go and that's really an open question and which i can't answer because i'm one out of seven billion yeah i think we have too little we have too many people on twitter who's shouting at each other And we have two little philosophers and ethics people who, but who really think things through. Yeah. And I think we have to have this discourse or this discourse, like this, this discussion in, in society about what do we want to become?

Because I think for the first time in history, we can literally reinvent what it means to be human. Um, so we, from my point of view, we reinvent in the world around us, but even more over the next 10 20 years we reinventing ourselves and we need to have a proper discussion what do we want yeah um so and i have one opinion i want to live really long i want to upgrade myself yeah um i would take brain computer interface stuff in a heartbeat uh if it's safe yeah uh i'm the guy who's like bring it on like yeah because i want to see by the way because also i was trying to say to compiling i can always pull the trigger if if if i'm bored in 200 years what i said before

like or if i do something and i fuck this was not good yeah well i'm always up for like uh but maybe other people say no we shouldn't do that we shouldn't go there but we need that sort of discussion and we don't have it at all because politicians are sort of i don't know i don't know why they don't take it up like i think it's very complicated and unfortunately we live in the world of soundbites where people want to reduce complexity and complexity is exploding and we need to find a way where we sort of honor or yeah or really cherish that complexity but also and i come probably we said before vaccines or whatever and trust certain people though to do the work for us yeah i think the biggest problem what we have in society one of the biggest

problems is eroding trust yeah and it will be impossible meaning for me already like I have in a pyrone we have round about 60 colleagues yeah so I have to trust them I cannot tell you on everything I had to say to you on NAD plus I can't tell you the mechanism of action but I do remember that I spoke to David Sinclair and he explained it to me well and after the call I was like i trust david and this is why i'm taking it yeah but i'm not able so so and i have all the resources at hand and i'm not able to understand every single detail of every single medicine we developing in companies or whatever yeah so and we living in this world where people like coming back to the vaccines think they have to understand everything and what they really have to do

they have to pick the people they really trust yeah and then so and that is i think what we completely lost in society that discussion plus trust in certain institutions and you can say obviously that people politicians maybe really didn't earn the trust yeah but like so they need to earn it back yeah but i think we're gonna go to 10 20 really really really volatile years in terms of society because everything is touched if we live just 200 years let's not talk about 200 if they 100 years the german pension system is is not um what's the english term so we don't own stocks or whatever so the german pension system is a liability from one generation to the other if we add 10 more years which gonna happen for sure that's a fact like i mean not a fact yeah

but like for me that's a fact german pension system and the german sort of everybody thinks germany is a very uh is a very solid country it's gonna explode yeah we need to find a solution for that yeah and it's just one out of thousands things where society and our life will change because of technological uh innovation uh innovation and yeah and we need to sort of get ahead of that and at the moment we are as a society deeply uh behind the curve you guys got any questions no this was you ain't got no questions i mean i was literally just asking questions throughout john um yeah i could think about that so what you talked about was really interesting what are you most excited about in all those different areas within the

next 10 years so you talked about psychedelics you talked a little bit about the financial institution in germany and other places as well the life longevity aspect of it like what what do you think we'll see the most in innovation in the next 10 years well two different questions well i'm personally my portfolio i'm most excited about sort of a type because we're solving the biggest problem in healthcare um i'm very excited about let's say number two is the whole crypto world that's one theme like northern data whatever but like as a theme crypto then longevity so these are brain computer interface but they all tie into each other brain computer interface will also be solving hopefully some some mental health issues so uh so these are we touched all the topics

literally which sort of i'm most excited about actually what we didn't touch which is one other important thing is like sort of the way what we eat and how do we produce it because i think again if you look at climate change yeah i'm totally a believer in climate change but i do think the way society or politics is tackling it is completely insane because it's like pretending to do something but it's not going to change like the two biggest things is we need to go back at least in germany i mean german by the way we all believe germany is so green that the co2 emissions are rather going up compared for example to france why because france has nuclear energy which is from a co2 perspective again we had it at the very beginning you need to be clear what you

want to solve yeah yes you have nuclear waste whatever it's another problem but if i'm focusing on climate change and on co2 emissions yeah nuclear power is the technology and fusion we're very invested um in infusion technology as sort of the the next level yeah is the solution and the second solution is we cannot have livestock anymore. Yeah. I think, I don't want to say the wrong number, but I think 17% of CO2 emissions are pooping cows or pooping animals. Yeah. I don't know if it's just the cows and the, yeah, whatever. So, so, so these are the two things. So I'm very excited also about the ability to either do plant based replacements, but I do think not the whole world will go sort of vegan or vegetarian. So you need to have lab grown or sort of, um, uh, sort

of artificially it's a negative word but like people are artificial meat but like but it's going to be real meat but not grown with a cow yeah and not with a sort of cow around which is a very inefficient way uh to produce meat yeah that's that's the one we didn't touch but that's what i'm excited about okay and then i got two more questions real quick what do you think is one of the most important things someone could do from a lifelong jevity standpoint if they are relatively in shape and eat decently healthy we call they don't really care about their diet but they, they work out and they, they're relatively like you're describing yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Asking for a friend. Uh, how old are you? Uh, 25.

Well, you're pretty young. So that's like sort of, I still, I would do start with intermittent fasting. I think intermittent fasting is a great, um, a great general thing everybody should do. Yeah. It's actually, by the way, going to make you more concentrated. People think, Oh, if I don't eat, that's what you prime for. I can't concentrate. It's the opposite because when we were, uh, hunters, um, and gatherers, like when we were hungry. So before eating our senses went up. So you're actually feeling super energetic. And in a moment you take food, your body is like, wow, now you can rest like, uh, and lie down. So do intermittent fasting, um, do vitamin D. Yeah. Um, again, I'm going to publish that thing. Like do

antidepressant. There's not too early for these things. They all extremely, uh, extremely healthy cool and then i read online that you are a member of the presidential advisory council um for the president of rwanda yep i am well how'd you get involved in that uh crazy story by the way like most in my life this is why i quoted mike so often is like i think my general view is like you have to go or you should go to through life like with an open sort of mind and an open heart because why not? There is no, there is just upside to it. Yeah. And then you bump into amazing opportunities and people are just so closed and so sort of negative. Yeah. So, and I'm always like interested in meeting other people. My general assumption is also

that I can learn something from every single person I meet. I just need to find out what it is like from a taxi driver. Everybody does something good or something better than I do. And I just want to say, so, so, and this is my friends know that they, I like to meet, love to meet new people that are so like 2007, a friend called me and said, Hey, the president of Rwanda is in town in Germany. Do you want to have dinner with him? And I was like, sure, that's awesome. Like, um, so, uh, I Googled his history and he's a very, he's actually one of, if not the most prolific, uh, leader I've ever met. because Rwanda had a horrible history of a genocide. We should have never happened. The world was watching. The UN had troops there. And we thought after Germany, the Holocaust,

we thought never again. And then we let it happen again and again. So, and he was the guy who ended it. So for that alone, he should get the Nobel Prize. Yeah. So I was like, wow, this is fascinating. Want to meet him. So we sort of, how do you say, kicked off.

Like we had a real good chemistry. And then he said, and by the way, the other thing is always tell myself be honest this what what he had on a postcard is like we have to be polite but honest to each other because that's the only way to learn and and evolve so and and he was saying like have you ever been to africa and actually till 2007 i had never ever been to africa uh except of egypt but like real africa so and i was looking at him and i was like actually normally you would say in terms of political correctness and protocol i would say oh I would love to visit you blah blah blah yeah and then never call again yeah and I thought no

let me tell him what I honestly think it was like look this dinner was fascinating but back then I changed a lot I was a hypochondriac and I was like and I had no clue about Africa and I admitted that I didn't know about Africa and I was like it feels risky I actually don't want to go like because he was like visit me like I was like I don't want to go there's malaria there is other bad stuff like maybe I'm gonna kill like yeah it was so hilariously bad what my view on Africa was but if I hadn't be polite and honest about it, I would have never had the opportunity that somebody changes my mind. So, and he was like, Christian, this was, I will never forget it. It was such a nice dinner, but your view on Africa is really non-informed. Yeah. But you seem

to be a guy who wants to learn, please take my invite, come to Rwanda. So I flew to Rwanda some months later and it was hands down one of the most fascinating, positive experiences. this country is like singapore and africa so he has built these kind of um very capitalistic like very forward-looking i mean imagine you're coming from a genocide yeah and uh even if you stop the genocide itself this country is deeply wounded like talking about mental health issues there you have it on steroids yeah and he has been able with his leadership to transform that country into these sort of vibrant technology savvy it's the sort of it center of east africa uh forward looking stable in any way sort of economic powerhouse of africa and that was so fascinating

we became friends and someone he asked me if i want to be on his advisory uh council which i'm very happy and proud to be but they say so i try to because i just it's not just an anecdote i think it's sort of always when i think about how i met him it's really like it's everything i think which we should be in life to to evolve that's amazing john what would you spend per month if you could get an extra three years and then to your life from starting right now yeah um would you spend a hundred dollars a month yes we spend 500 it depends why are you thinking yeah i was Yes, but it depends on your mental and physical health at that point.

But I think it's always the assumption. When people ask that question, I think you assumed obviously in good mental and physical health, not in pain. In your shape now. But it's a good call out that part of this, and I think a big piece of the longevity community is, it's not just about, hey, how long can you hold on for?

It's also doing it with a high degree of quality. Yeah, if I'm crazy in the last three years it's probably not very fun for me or anyone that's around crazy right now yeah yeah but um if i was in good health mentally and physically i don't think there's a limit on what i would spend yeah whatever i could afford like you tell me the number and it's like yeah if i can do that sure and yeah i think that's what most people would say yeah i think we would spend i mean that's what people realize when they're sick they would spend all of their money yeah on being healthy and without health and, and, and, and so I think this is why I always like people. I think the,

the whole, both again, I see a tie and then Cameron and Rejuvenate as like sort of the same side of the coin, because like you want to be happy. I think what, what do we really want? Like I always say, if you poke people and say, what do you want in life? Then one might say, I want a happy marriage. I want children. I want a car. I want success, whatever. But if you go on poking and say, why do you want children? Why do you want a happy marriage? Why do you want the car? why do you want a job ultimately they all say i want to be happy and healthy yeah providing happiness and healthy uh thing is literally is 100 the total addressable market is 100 of the world population i uh i saw somebody say hell yeah three years at the end of your life how

much compounding will that get you yes exactly so save a bit then the real question is how much would you pay to have like three extra years somewhere in your life like in between what do you mean like what if you were like because i feel like like live over turning 33 times yeah or something like that right because i feel like some people are like yeah it'd be great to live three extra years obviously but they'd rather enjoy that time when they're young when they can go do things when they you know are with certain family members or something like that not that it's possible but so here's one thing that i have not done yet but uh i recently was looking at because of the Sinclair Huberman podcast

is I think I'm going to go get my biological age. Like go do the test and see what does it say my biological age is. I'm scared because I figure it's going to be not my chronological age, probably older, but I feel like you got to know what it is in order to start to address it. Yeah. Oh, by the way, because it's not as bad when I say it now because it just came as an idea and not because you said your biological age, but we talked a little about what you have to do

yeah and we didn't talk about health-wise what you should not do yeah what are the top two things like no alcohol yeah zero um i've never tried it uh never in your life never um i actually i cheered on new year's eve and definitely something touched my lips yeah so i'm not a i'm not a complete virgin so to say but i never was drunk yeah and maybe i that doesn't count i drink a zip of alcohol five times on new year's eve to be polite yeah okay um but alcohol is is a poison whoever is watching now google david not not this nutt chart david dear friend he's um sort of the drug uh the mental health czar of uh of uh of the uk and he did this study i think more than 10 years ago now uh where he's more harmful than heroin yes and cocaine and tobacco so so what they did

drink in january 1st 2020 i haven't drank since great uh but what david did he looked at all the legal and illegal drugs and and made a harm scale because it's not just like can you die of it can you get disabled can you get mentally disabled can you harm others and if you look at the whole sort of holistic view on what is risk yeah indeed alcohol is a little bit more risky than heroin doesn't by the way say do heroin or alcohol but like it says both are very very very very bad for you like and then comes everything which is bad and then at the very end practically no risk is psychedelics by the way yeah so that is one thing alcohol is and obviously smoking alcohol no alcohol no smoking what about sugar no sugar we had that yeah but then and the one thing which

I'm obsessed with is sleep. Yeah. Sleep is a, is a real superpower. Yeah. Most things we talked about, we don't want to get from cardiovascular diseases to, uh, uh, to, uh, Alzheimer's to cancer, whatever are linked as well to sleep deprivation. Yeah. And I think we as society, and especially by the way, the crypto and startup world is glorifying working day and night. I think we should glorify indeed working relentlessly i love working because i love my job but i'm making really really sure that i get enough sleep yeah so for example eat sleep uh i want to try it meaning i saw it a lot like yeah i need one yeah uh that's the number one thing that i did so i didn't realize with the whole sleep thing um sleep obviously temperature is big sound light

oxygen right there's like all these things that go into it but it's also what you do beforehand so like now uh i sleep very well which uh surprises people but i drink tea uh about 45 minutes or so i'm like obsessive about it uh that i drink it before i know i want to go to sleep it's like a um uh what is it chamomile tea that's got like a little bit of melatonin that comes in the tea great and so it basically i don't care how much you want to stay up you just you have to go to sleep you just get tired then you go to sleep i sleep really cold on the eight sleep pitch black uh we have like a little uh sound machine thing right that uh essentially just lulls you to sleep and you feel a hundred times better than if you didn't drink that didn't go

to sleep at the same time didn't have the eight sleep had a little bit of light coming through the windows and also didn't have the sound like people don't realize until you do it it's a world of difference and you actually notice more and do all that and then so for example one of my really luxury things is in life i try not to schedule meetings before 10 a.m doesn't mean i not start working but i can wake up naturally so because the sleep goes in cycles and when i just missing the last 10 minutes i would need it really ruins the whole cycle so i'm really like if it's not a day i have to travel though but very rarely i have to wake up with an alarm clock which is one of the very healthy uh things to do because my body can take as much

sleep um as it needs what time do you go to bed and wake up that's one of my bigger problems but also i do feel no but like it's again it's also it's like listening to your body science would tell you or at least most studies that it would be very healthy to go at the same time to to bed i think i'm completely messed up there because i'm since 20 years i'm traveling between time zones so even if i now even during covid when i was in in london yeah sometimes i was tired at nine and then i go to bed and sometimes i'm tired at one so i go to bed when i'm tired yeah so so yeah so if i look at studies i'm like okay that's not so good yeah but like it feels okay for me because i'm getting the sleep and i'm really going to bed when yeah but studies tell you ideally go to bed

at the same time gotcha anything else what about exercise i do like i was very bad before christmas but like i try to do a little bit of exercise every day like even if it's like 10 minutes like whatever peloton or whatever yeah and then two three four times real training uh with a trainer i feel like if you just move eat relatively healthy you sleep and you just keep poison out of your body like it's 80 there's this famous 80 20 rules i think a lot of things we discussed many i think we discussed the 80 like everything you said plus vitamin d plus metformin and then you have 30 other things you can do from spermidine to whatever yeah that's then the icing on the cake yeah but if you if you're drinking alcohol so if you're not getting your 80 right you don't need

to focus on the cumbersome 20 yeah makes sense and by the way i can say it again at the variant it's also important that you're happy yeah i think being happy not just because it's sort of the goal in life but also there is a there's great studies which show that people who are happy genuinely happy are also healthier because there seems to be a relation between our immune system and our whole body function which is by the way one of the things i want to look into more so we We did a great, we did a Compass, our magic mushroom company, did a great study giving people with end of life or in general with cancer. Yeah. And some of them were already sort of at the end of the journey.

Some of them were early. Yeah. But cancer often produces depression. Yeah. And we had a great study with Compass that magic mushrooms can eliminate with a very good success rate depression in cancer patients. but when we talk to which is not like sort of in the study that's super important yeah but that is sort of the feeling and it was a small study so i want to do a bigger one so the feeling was and by the way not just with this study but the feeling in generally of of cancer doctors oncologists if

you talk to them is that people who are happy get through chemo and ever better and have a higher rate of survival why because their immune system is better they take it better whatever yeah so it might be clever in the future when psychedelics are approved, even preventatively, if you have a severe illness, make sure that not additionally to the severe illness, you get a depression, which then actually

is burdening the healing process of your illness. This is important. It's not proven, but it's a hunch which I definitely want to design a study around because I think it's worth it. I think it's a no-brainer. What do I know?

Where can we find you on the internet? I'm on Twitter and my Twitter handle is hopefully I said it right check it it's on the thing it's on the screen

perfect underscore I'm putting it in the chat right now if you want to follow Christian just go to the chat right now

you can click on the link there it's C underscore Agermeyer Agermeyer exactly Agermeyer that's like a very

German probably a German word creating companies movies and good memories exactly we had by the way a very cool movie last year. I'm so proud of it. It was like super surprising. We did a prequel to Army of the

Dead. Have you seen Army of the Dead? No. Of Zack Snyder? No. And a very close friend of mine, Matthias, he was one of the main actors in Army of the Dead. And then we convinced Zack Snyder that we can produce a prequel about his character. And it was, it's Army of Thieves, which was one of the most successful Netflix movies of 2021. So I love making movies. And And by the way, it's the same. Creating companies and creating movies, it's this creation process which fascinates me. You have an idea, you need to find people

you collaborate with, you need to find financing, you need to build up the whole thing. So that's what I like to do day and night. That's what we like to do too. And then LinkedIn, if you want to find me. I think LinkedIn is sometimes more polite. So Twitter always gets so heated. LinkedIn is sort of,

these are the two social media channels I'm doing. We get in the mud on Twitter. We like the mud. All right. Thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate everyone watching.