The Pomp Podcast - #946 Pascal Gauthier On The Best Way To Secure Your Bitcoin

Episode Date: May 4, 2022

Pascal Gauthier is the Chairman & CEO of Ledger In this conversation we talk about hardware wallets, E.U. regulation, why cold storage Is so important, and self sovereignty. ======================= Brave Wallet is the first secure crypto wallet built natively in a web3 crypto browser. No extension required. Store, manage, and grow your portfolio, get NFT & multi-chain support, and more.    Download the Brave privacy browser at brave.com/Pomp, and click the wallet icon to get started. ======================= The Pomp Podcast is powered by BetOnline.ag, the world's largest sports betting, casino, poker and horse racing website that accepts cryptocurrency for wagering.   BetOnline.ag gives you the ability to use Bitcoin and more than a dozen altcoins to make deposits and withdraw your winnings. There are no crypto transaction fees, and processing is instantaneous and secure.   Visit https://promotions.betonline.ag/pomp and use PROMO CODE: POMP100 to receive a 100% matching bonus on any crypto deposit.   BetOnline.ag is available in nearly every country around the world, making it the top global gaming destination for crypto users. ======================= The Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. Go to https://www.eightsleep.com/Pomp to check out the Pod Pro Cover and save $150 at checkout. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, and the UK. =======================

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Pascal Gouthière is the chairman and CEO of Ledger. In this conversation, we talk about hardware wallets, regulation in the EU, self-sovereignty, and much, much more. I really enjoyed this conversation with Pascal, and I hope that you enjoyed as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I first want to talk about our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by FTX US. FTX.us is the safe, regulated way to buy and sell Bitcoin and other digital assets. You can trade crypto with up to 85% lower fees than top competitors. There are no fixed minimum fees,

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Discover why everyone is saying BetOnline is the fastest and easiest way to wager with crypto for sports, casino games, horse racing, poker, and more. Sign up today at betonline.ag and double your deposit with our exclusive podcast promo code POMP100. Go check them out at betonline.ag. Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a

specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Pascal, how are you doing, my friend? Hey, Sergio. I'm doing great. Thank you for having me. Of course. Thank you for coming on. I want to first start maybe with Ledger is obviously the leader when it comes to self-custody. Why is this so important, right?

for you to dedicate so much time, energy, resources to building a business that allows people to self-custody these assets. Talk to me about just the why behind building a company like Ledger. Well, I think it's the very basics of why crypto. I mean, if crypto exists just to put it in the bank, then why crypto? Why do we need blockchain technology? Why do we need private keys and all of this you know i think crypto and you know bitcoin was meant for decentralization was meant for you know moving away from a centralized system where everything relies on single entities into something decentralized where suddenly you can own your private keys and you can own your money you know i think i think that's that's the principle of sort of bitcoin and

and blockchain technologies and so now the question became very quickly okay but how can you do this in the most secure way because there is one thing with blockchain transaction is they're they're immutable so once it's gone it's gone and the endpoint security the security of the private key whether when it's at risk and or when you sign a transaction is you know these are the two moments where people can take the private keys from you this is the moment this is the endpoint security that you need to watch for. And so hardware security today is the only way to really secure your private keys. And this is the raison d'existence, as we say in French, of ledger. This is, you know, make things secure, make crypto secure and easy to use. These are the two missions

that the company has. And we've been doing this since 2015. I was actually chatting with Eric Larchevac, founder and former CEO, yesterday, and I was asking him to send me the seed deck of the company. You wouldn't believe that the seed deck of the company looks exactly like the Series C deck and will look exactly like the Series D deck. We've always been doing the same thing, and we're very dedicated to make this industry much safer for consumers, but also enterprise. So when you start to think about this idea of securing digital assets, you said that basically that's the whole point of crypto is this idea of self-sovereignty. What are some of the things that people should be looking at when they're evaluating how they are going to secure their assets? There's, in my mind, a couple of different things they can do, right?

You have wallets that are attached to regulated exchanges. You have software wallets. You have hardware wallets. You have cold storage. You have multi-sig. All these different ways to secure these digital assets. How do you walk people through kind of the evaluation process for what's the right thing for them and what they're trying to accomplish? I mean, the main question is always like, where are the private keys?

And so if you trust a third party with your private keys, the question becomes, OK, what's the actual security they have? And what are the rules of governance? Sometimes the keys are secure. You trust your keys to a certain company. The keys will be eventually secure because they're either in an OS, which is often the case, or in an HSM, hardware security module, so secure servers where you can put private keys. The question is not so much the security of the private keys, it's more the question of the governance, like who has access to the keys, etc. And so you've seen in the horror stories that the market has had in the past, it's usually the question of who has access to those keys. and sometimes you see, you know, people disappearing

and suddenly no one has access to the funds anymore. And so that's fundamentally a governance issue. And so it's very hard for consumers to figure that out. So usually, you know, trust the big guys that have the funds to pay you back in case they're being hacked. You know, this is what Binance does really well with their Seifu funds. Or when you have a company like Coinbase that is now sort of regulated and listed, you know, eventually they pay you, they'll pay you money back, but there is always

the risk. And, you know, actually, if you, if you look at the deal that you have with your bank, now I'm talking about the fiat system. If your bank goes bankrupt, actually, you know, they don't owe you much. Like if you have a million dollars in your bank account and, you know, they go bankrupt, they don't have actually to pay you back. And so when you, when you work with a custodian or if you trust a custodian with your money, like it obeys the same rules. There is no guarantee that you ever see your money if something happened and in the case of crypto you know there is a strong case that these exchanges or you know something could be hacked and so really the question becomes what is the security layer they run on if you look at kraken for

example and what jc says and what kraken says publicly they say don't leave your funds on the exchange and you know retrieve your funds and you know keep them securely with you on a self-custody wallet okay and then the question becomes okay but now if i'm self-custodying my phones what should i do so pro tip of the day never leave your phones on a on a software wallet on your phone or on your computer these are not secure enough we have actually videos you can look on our website where we extract the private keys of software wallet in less than 30 seconds it's almost all software wallets and it's not really their fault it's just the fact that software wallet rely on computers or phones that have not been designed for security. And so you can attack the phone or

the computer at the operating system level and sort of drain everything that sits on top of it. So software has not been designed to secure crypto private keys. So really, if you're self-custodying your keys, hardware is your only bet today. It's not just your best bet. It's your only bet. So if you have your coins in a Metamask, for example, please do pair it with a hardware wallet. We believe Ledger is the best hardware wallet right now in the market, but there are others. and the private keys need to be in hardware. So if you're self-custodying the keys, it has to be in secure hardware at some point.

So when you start to think about that hardware wallet itself, you've talked a little bit about the best practices for securing things. How should people evaluate hardware in terms of what they should use, what they shouldn't? I always tell folks, a simple thing is don't buy any hardware device from a third party. Go and buy it directly from the creator,

whether it's Ledger or somebody else. But when you all think about building these products, how do you expect the end user to actually evaluate the hardware? Are there certain features that are more important than others or what's that evaluation process look like? No, first of all, I think that if you're going to handle your own security, you know, you need to spend the time and, you know, to educate yourself. I think, you know, trying to fast track yourself into this world is a bad idea. So there is a lot of educational content everywhere on sort of everything. Ledger has a lot of educational content in the Ledger Academy. And we spend a lot of time and money just to build this content so people know what they're doing.

And so know that when you go to self-custody, it's a bit like in the Matrix. You're taking the red pill, I think. So you're exiting from the Matrix. And so suddenly you need to sort of forget everything you think you know and learn this new world. and you know taking care of your own security and taking care of like digital assets is actually something very new so you should be very mindful of what you're doing next you know in web 2 you download an app and you say yes yes yes we were all done this is like you say yes to everything you don't read the fine prints and then you move on i think you shouldn't be careless with web 3

and with crypto in general like you should really pay attention to to what you do because sometimes you know mistakes um nobody's gonna fix that mistake for you right because suddenly you're in charge of your of your own funds and then when it comes to choosing a hardware wallet i mean there are a bunch of youtubers there are a bunch of reviews so again it's back back to uh to the education process um and um and and you know like hardware while it's a battle tested every day so you can read reviews, you can, you can read about, you know, what's, what's safer. Usually ledger rates pretty highly. So basically the answer is get a ledger.

Anthony, like that's the best answer I can give you right now. Of course, that's what you think, right? It's actually documented. I mean, ledger is the safest out there. We sold 5 million devices versus the rest of the market that I've sold, you know around one point something uh and and also now seriously the good way of of thinking about a hardware wallet is you know it's two things it's security but also ease of use so security you know there you can document yourself you know ledger ranks pretty high when it comes to security actually it ranks the highest when it comes to ease of use then it becomes the

software okay what is the software that comes with the hardware wallet that is provided with a hardware wallet so at ledger we have ledger live ledger live is becoming a really great value proposition in itself like as a as a as a wallet in itself i mean it's great and so you need to you need to look at that you need to look at other software and make your decision and then you need to look at also compatibility so you know your your hardware wallet can link to uh ledger live sure but okay what can what can you what can you link to as well so typically your ledger wallet is compatible with your coinbase wallet it's compatible with a bunch of wallets that are that are out there so i think this is the three things i will check you know

security of the wallet the software that comes with the wallet uh and then the competitive compatibility of your hardware wallet with other software services and i think on these three things ledger ranks number one right now which is why i say get a ledger yeah that makes sense and then talk to me about uh in the eu uh we've seen parliament and various politicians come out And maybe they've overreacted to crypto or they don't really understand it. And they've got some fairly abrasive perspectives to this. And part of, quote unquote, security is not just the hardware, but also what regulatory environment you are participating in.

And I know that Ledger has played a part in trying to craft maybe some alternative policy. And in it, my understanding is that you guys put forward this policy that would allow the parliament and regulators to address their AML and various financial sanction concerns, but it also would allow EU citizens and companies to continue to participate in a thriving, growing global economic market. And so talk through a little bit as to how you all are viewing what the current proposals are, and then what you think they could adapt or change in order to make it kind of a better win-win scenario from a regulatory standpoint. Yeah. So I think two things, the regulation is happening right now because people were after

uh i can't even remember libra or dm or they were after facebook you know mika the mika regulation started because of facebook mainly um and you know dm and libra disappeared and so this tentative of regulation is being used against i would say you know crypto and so this is why it feels that it's going fast right now and it's also why like the industry was not concerned because at the beginning this regulation was not directed to the industry um and you can understand why for libra and dm it would sort of make sense because you know it was like you know half crypto half centralized you know how you know probably like you know um a play by facebook that was deemed by regulators to you know increase facebook dominance and so they didn't have they didn't

look at it with a with a kind eye so this is what's happening right now and the second thing is happening is just you know some people hate freedom some people hate capitalism and uh and free and the free market um and uh and and those people exist and they exist in the european parliament and they're pushing for regulation so they're trying to pretend that they do it for the greater good of you know uh catching the terrorists and and the drug business but actually they do it just because you know they just don't like bitcoin they don't like crypto because bitcoin and crypto promotes values that are against their agenda. So when you see people talking about that, what's the way to actually get this kind of in a better situation? Is it things like

Ledger and other companies in the industry putting forward legislation saying, hey, here's a better way to do it? Is it going and directly educating them? Is it saying, hey, they're going to do whatever they're going to do, and we just got to go win from a technology standpoint? What's the best strategy for the industry when it comes to regulation? Yeah, so I think it's all of the above. So there's not one thing. There are many things that you should do so first of all you know this is the spirit of the the letter that we wrote and if you guys that are listening to this you know go on my twitter account and the the the first link that is pinned is sort of like our proposition to the regulators in europe and we are advocating

for a pragmatic approach you know i think the net net is do we want to catch the bad guys yes you know no one is really debating that uh the question is like how do you catch the bad guys and how do How do you take, you know, how do you understand that this is new technology? And so, therefore, all rules don't really apply to crypto. I mean, you know, if you, you know, almost four years after the Bitfinex hack, like, they found the people. So, actually, crime on a blockchain is not the best idea because, you know, it will follow you forever. It's an immutable ledger, you know, that is public, that everyone can look into. And you have great tools right now, such as Chainalysis, to actually track.

So we are advocating for a pragmatic approach. And so we're making proposition and we are pushing the proposition sort of directly to the relevant people. That's number one thing. Number two, we're building, let's call it an association or a group at the European level also to push. Because that doesn't really exist. Like, I mean, in the US, you have Coin Center, et cetera. But in Europe, actually, there was nothing. And that is a testimony to the fact that Europe is a little behind the U.S. in terms of building big companies.

And so, therefore, we didn't really have anyone, you know, rooting and, you know, educating for crypto at the European level. We had something in France, you know, you had like in different countries. But Europe is this thing where you still have like countries that are very strong and then these European regulators. So right now we're building something at the European level says our new public policy guy is actually spearheading that initiative. And, you know, we have a bunch of companies that are aggregating around us to do this in Europe. So that's the second thing that you do. And the third thing we assume we're going to make an announcement around that we put where we put freedom features, something, you know, those features that you will see in the in Ledger, such as sort of full node or Tor directly integrating in Ledger that will guarantee people freedom.

Because also, you know, what we're saying to the European regulator and us as a global company, 70% of the people on the planet don't live in democracy. So actually, the regulation that we're fighting in Europe is sort of rich people's problem. In other countries, it's not rich people's problem. It's life or death type of situation. So we feel that people should have the tools to be free and to fight censorship.

When you see a situation like in Ukraine, obviously given the Russian invasion, it feels like that is one of many things that are going on in the world right now where crypto obviously becomes much more important. It's obvious why there's a value proposition here. Have you all seen success stories of the self-sovereignty or the hardware wallets of people in Ukraine? Or how do you think about that situation, given the product that you guys build and sell to the market? Yeah, I mean, you know, we've seen it. I mean, you know, for us, it was like sort of before the war, because with hardware wallets, the thing is like you should, you know, it's difficult to ship hardware in a conflict zone. Okay, so, but before the war, you know, people maybe anticipated the conflict, etc. but our sales exploded actually both in Ukraine and Russia.

And because of the war, then, you know, you have limitation when it comes to shipping, but definitely usage on the platform, you see it increasing. But we see, you know, every time that a country is in trouble, we see the need for self-custody and people, and we see the need for crypto. So whether it's like, you know, with self-custody or not, like there is a need for crypto.

And Lebanon is also a very good example of, you know, a country where fiat is completely broken and the country is really suffering right now and people are really going towards sort of crypto as a safe haven. And of course, you know, we ship products in more than 195 countries in the world. And we ship a number, a decent number of products in all of these countries. So Ledger is always here to protect value and to protect those that have the most to lose. So for sure. When you start to think about the products that you guys are building and scaling successfully, you have a brand new wallet. And what's so interesting to me about it is not so much that it's a continuation of the security that you all have been providing, but it has specific features or a specific kind of bend to also cater to the NFT community.

Talk to me about the kind of specialization in the crypto market. So it used to be only thing available was Bitcoin. Then we got the smart contract platforms. Then we got the NFTs, DeFi, and you kind of just go down the line, and it feels like now there are different types of assets, similar to the legacy system where you have stocks, bonds, currencies, and commodities. How do you all think about that, and why such a focus on the NFT market right now? First, I would say that every web revolution happened because of hardware, PC, iPhone,

and then this one will be ledger. Probably not in its current form, but in the future forms that we're developing right now. But when it comes to what we have now, what you see with hardware, Web3 needs hardware because of security. This is what I said at the beginning. So now what we start to see is when we started to all to work on this, we met a long time but for me it was 2014 it was bitcoin only and then suddenly it was bitcoin and ethereum and remember at ledger when this happened like we had to adapt ledger to you know the ethereum

phenomenon and now and after that like you know so many coins so many blockchains so many tokens so many things happening and you have send and receive and now you have staking and you have nft etc etc so us our job is to support every community like we don't we don't choose we don't root for one coin or the other we provide the tools to the community so they can you know live their web3 life and we're trying to make their life secure and we're trying to make it easy to use that's the job and so the future this hardware nano s plus or the nano x or the future of hardware will always evolve in the in to always be as secure and always easier to you so you know sort of thing bigger screens and and so on and so forth so this is what's

happening right now this is what we need to update the nano s because i noticed nano s was designed in 2015 2016 when it was bitcoin only so you didn't need a lot of space on the nano s because it was primarily like a bitcoin device but now people have like tens of coins and you know tokens etc so you need a lot more space so it was a long-awaited upgrade and people was sometimes don't want the connectivity so nano x you have the bluetooth nano x you don't um so if you want to go mobile you got your nano x and if you want something that is safe that always work that has no battery then that's your nano s plus got it and so when you start to think about uh how these markets mature uh is there any thought process in terms of how this hardware will interact with

things like if i have let's add a huge nft collection i wanted to securitize or borrow against it or anything like that does that change any of the criteria for uh kind of the hardware components or is that more so, nope, we do one thing and one thing really well is we secure this for the end user. And then if you want to have any of those financial services around, whether it's NFTs or other types of assets, you're going to take it out of the hardware device and put it somewhere else on a different platform to get access? No. So that was Ledger. What you're describing is Ledger of 2017. The Ledger of 2022 has been designed as a platform. So specifically not to do this because then it becomes very hard to use.

If your ledger is only where coins go to die, then it's not very interesting. And we've seen recently that coins are always moving now. You've got DeFi, et cetera. So this is actually one of the main reasons for self-custody. It's like now you can actually do stuff with your coins that you can't really do if you give them to a custodian. DeFi is one example, but there are many other examples

where you need to be in control. And so what's happening right now is we build ledger as a platform. actually you can check it out it's developers.ledger.com and so now if you're a blockchain a coin a token if you're an adapt like you know anything people can code directly in the platform and integrate uh services uh into into ledger you should check it out like a lot of people have uh you know put their coins in the ledger and then forgot forgot about them you should you should come back and and check it out like you can actually sort of buy sell swap you have a A Discover, of course, tech.

You have a full Discover section now if you have a bunch of apps that have been integrated. The most recent one is Zen Ledger. It's a crypto tax tool support. So super interesting. And so you don't need to leave the security and the comfort of your Ledger and Ledger Live experience. And you can just do all of this into Ledger.

What we're doing too is like we're increasing the connectivity of your Ledger to Web3 services. so if you go to uh and and that's going to get like increasingly better in the next few weeks next few months watch us but if you go on to any web3 value proposition right now you should be able to log to log on directly with your ledger and so that's what we're doing for the community like we're trying to really make things easy to use and in one ledger experience try to also stake your ETH with Lido. It's three clicks on your Ledger Live experience or do your Paraswap directly in Ledger Live. This is the most secure way of doing those things. You do all of it in

Ledger and this is what Ledger has become. It's a developer's platform right now. Yeah. It's fascinating when you start to think about banks really were kind of a great business for a long time. There was so much stickiness from the customers. They deposit their assets and then there's all these financial services that are created and sold to them kind of around those deposits. In some way, what you all have built is not exactly a deposit account, right, as you would see at a bank, but there's this self-sovereignty component. And whoever's custodying the assets or helping the individual custody of the assets has the opportunity to create this platform business, which sounds like exactly what you guys are doing. Is there one

thing that you look forward, you know, five, 10 years and you're like, hey, we really want to do acts from a financial service standpoint or something with the hardware but you're just not quite there or the technology is not there yet but you're really excited about it well i think our long-term view on all of this is you know we will migrate slowly from web 2 to web 3 i mean if you think about play to earn i mean play to earn is just like a better way of doing video games i was with the star atlas team uh in the bahamas last week that game is pretty fucking exciting I mean, you know, it's interesting what they have. And it's not just them.

Like, it's a bunch of games that are coming. And if you think about, you know, what people do with their computer or with their phone, like, they play. And now they can play to earn. So I think this is a fantastic space to watch. And so as I'm thinking of the future of our business, I'm thinking, okay, everything that is Web 2 right now will go Web 3. Think about email. Think about the cloud. Think about, like, there are many applications that should be completed.

Think about like, you know, web messaging, like, you know, all of this should think about Twitter. All of this should probably be sort of decentralized. And so once it is decentralized, the question is, where are the private keys? And so when I think about the future of Web3, I'm thinking, okay, now everything becomes a private key. And so Web3 is going to need like a super device actually to exist. So Ledger will be that device and it will be your entry door into your Web3.

So what Apple and iPhone was to Web2, I think Ledger wants to do it for Web3. Yeah, it's fascinating. My last question for you. I know you're a super busy guy. One of our sponsors is Eight Sleep. They've got a thermoregulated mattress that allows people to make it super cold, super hot. What's your sleep schedule? Given how much of a high performer you are personally and being able to run the business in the way that you do,

do you have any sleep routines or tips for the audience around optimizing getting enough sleep? Well, first of all, I'm only a super performer because I've got the best team in the world. Good answer. me i'm trying to you know minimize what i do and maximize the the outcome and so i really you know and i've done a previous company where i where i burned myself completely and i learned from this and so right now i'm taking time for my family i'm taking time for holiday i'm sleeping well etc so i don't i don't just go crazy working like 18 hours a day i think that's a that's a waste of time that's a waste of energy and also you can hurt yourself like you know and you know health

house family that's number one and everything comes comes after um and so me you know my my sleeping schedule is uh well depending on what i do but if i'm home and doing nothing then you know i go to bed early and i wake up early like you know 10 30 i'm sleeping i wake up at seven and at my night i stop my phone after a certain time like nine i stop my phone i don't care who you are i was watching we crash the other day and like you know adam was waking up in the middle of the night to talk with masa i mean if masa calls me in the middle of the night he will never find me that will never happen i'm sleeping and i sleep well like i don't wake up in the middle of the night i'm not worried etc so i sleep well and that's my sleep routine i just go to bed and

sleep it will call it the anti masa uh phone strategy right where it doesn't matter who you are you ain't getting through if your phone's off it makes uh makes a lot of sense i call you when i wake up in the morning i wake up early so 7 a.m i wake up and then i start working i text with Ian Rogers, et cetera, like we, with Charles Guimet, the CTO, like we text like super early in the morning. And so the day starts early and finishes, you work from 7 to 9 PM every day. I think that's good enough. After that I sleep. Yeah. Makes sense. Uh, where can we send people to find you on the internet or find out more about Ledger? Uh, okay. So I got a weird, uh, Twitter handler is, uh, underscore P Gautier. So they can find me on Twitter. Uh, I just crossed

15,000 users, which is nice for me. I mean, I know compared to you is nothing, but okay. I'll take it. So that's that's the main way to follow me, I think, right now. Oh, and also on Telegram, I've got Pascal Gauthier on Telegram. You can follow me there. All right. Listen, I appreciate very much you coming on. Obviously, Ledger is the the leader when it comes to hardware wallets. And anybody who who's interested should definitely go check it out. My only piece of advice to folks, I don't give a lot of advice, but the only good one I got is make sure you buy it directly from from the manufacturer. don't buy it from a third party uh to make sure that uh you keep that super secure uh custody of

your assets so pascal thank you so much for taking the time to come on and can i ask the question yeah of course are these your two brothers coming after me they are ah okay they they're better looking they're funnier you know but uh but they are my brothers i get to claim them okay cool but next time like you know if you want to if you want to be consistent you can call me pascal and with your last name call you pascal pompliano with pleasure you could be an honorary brother that's perfectly fine we there's five of us so having a six no one will even know you just kind of just roll with us wherever we go and uh and then it's like oh there's the pomp boys exactly man plus i got corsican roots you got italian roots like it's fine like it works that's great

i've never had anyone ask me that before that might be my favorite question so you're in you're in the club you're in the family okay all right sounds good buddy talk soon thanks so much for listening to today's episode i really hope you guys enjoyed this one make sure you're subscribed on apple spotify or your favorite podcast player and if you're looking to try to transition to get a new job in the bitcoin or crypto industry we've got you covered head over to pompscryptocourse.com we've developed a curriculum with the top teams across the industry it's a three-week intensive training program with over 50 events packed into that three-week time period. Go to pompscryptocourse.com to learn more, and I'll meet you guys for the next episode.