The Pomp Podcast - #976 Hannah Maruyama On How To Get A Tech Job Without A College Degree

Episode Date: May 24, 2022

Hannah Maruyama is the host of the podcast and TikTok channel "Degree Free", she's also a graduate of our crypto training course "Crypto Academy". In this conversation, we talk about getting a job in Crypto, pivoting and learning new skills for a career change, the "Degree Free" movement of opting out of a college, and how you can make six figures a year without a college degree. ======================= LMAX Digital - the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading & custodial services - offers clients a regulated, transparent and secure trading environment, together with the deepest pool of crypto liquidity. LMAX Digital is also a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading analytics platforms. LMAX Digital - secure, liquid, trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp ======================= The Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. Go to https://www.eightsleep.com/Pomp to check out the Pod Pro Cover and save $150 at checkout. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, and the UK. ======================= The world's 2nd largest crypto exchange, OKEx, has dropped the "E" to become OKX, reflecting its evolution from a traditional crypto exchange to a comprehensive, cross-platform crypto services provider. With OKX's decentralized platform and Web3 wallet, MetaX, you have full custody over your crypto. Explore DeFi, NFTs and play-to-earning gaming with the world's most powerful crypto exchange. Visit OKX.com to learn more. =======================

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Hannah Maruyama is the host of the podcast called Degree Free. She also is a graduate of our training and upskilling program, Crypto Academy. In this conversation, Hannah and I talk all about actually getting trained on cryptocurrencies, talk about the upskilling and why she found so much value in that training program. I really enjoyed this conversation with Hannah, and I hope you guys enjoy it as well.

Before we get into this episode, though, I first want to talk about our sponsors. First up is LMAX Digital, the number one institutional crypto exchange. They offer clients the deepest pool of crypto liquidity on the planet, underscored by a 100% uptime track record through volatility spikes. They leverage LMAX Group's liquidity relationships and ultra-low latency technology.

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LMAX Digital, they're secure, they're liquid, and they're trusted. Learn more at lmaxdigital.com slash pomp. Again, lmaxdigital.com slash pomp. This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep is the single best product that I have purchased over the last three years. It completely changed my life.

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and you save $150 at checkout. They currently ship within the United States, Canada, and the UK. Now I told you it changed my life. It helps me sleep deeper, helps me sleep longer. I feel much more refreshed and I have better energy. You want to know how I have relentless energy every single day? Because I sleep on an 8sleep. Seriously, go check it out. 8sleep.com slash pomp today. This episode is brought to you by OKEx. OKEx has dropped the E to become OKEx. Founded in 2017 with a mission to deliver a cutting edge crypto trading experience. OKEx, the world's second

largest crypto exchange by trading volume, has since expanded its scope alongside the wider industry, adding features from all corners of crypto. If EX is about exchange, X is about intersections. Cross-chain, cross-functional, cross-platform, an interoperable future that's not siloed into isolated platforms and blockchains. The name change and the new look and feel represent OKEx's ongoing move towards decentralized finance. With OKEx's decentralized platform and Web3 Wallet, MetaX. You have full custody over your crypto. Connect MetaX in your browser or within the OKEx app to explore DeFi, NFTs, and play to earning gaming, the world's most powerful crypto exchange. Whether you're just learning about crypto, you're a seasoned DeFi degen,

an NFT enthusiast, or a pro trader, you're all invited to a better future. Go check it out today and let me know what you think. Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Hannah is here now, actually. So Hannah, how are you? I'm doing good. Nice to actually meet you. This is pretty wild, I have to say,

having been reading your tweets for a very long time. I'm very excited about this. Maybe let's just start with what are you doing now in the Bitcoin and crypto industry? What do you spend all day doing? Sure. So currently what I'm doing now is I'm doing business analysis and product ownership for a company that's doing a single source of truth platform to manage complex documents across B2B enterprises. Very exciting stuff. Lots of paperwork. Lots of paperwork is okay. And then I guess maybe one of the most interesting things about you is that you've got a podcast called Degree Free. And it's this whole idea that like maybe people don't need as many college degrees and all of that as they thought. Tell me

a little bit about the podcast and kind of why are you so maybe obsessed with this idea? Oh man, you're just giving me a platform to talk about this. I'll talk about this all day. And I do. But like most people who do not have college degrees, I have a big old chip on my shoulder about people telling me I can't do things. And I think that I find that to be true for a lot of people that do not have college degrees. But the main reason that I'm so passionate about it now is because about two and a half years ago, like a lot of people who had to transition their jobs when the lockdowns devastated whole industries, I ended up in tech. And the first job I applied for required a computer science degree and I don't have a degree at all. And

it's something that I've always questioned the necessity for since I dropped out. But that just sent me down this whole rabbit hole of finding different, finding different ways to find people jobs that they want, trying to help them figure out what's effective to learn, like the minimum effective dose that they need to learn in order to apply for a job. And so that's become, that's, that's become something I talk about all the time now. And when you think about people trying to transition into technology industry, so we can use Bitcoin and crypto or we could use other ones and they don't have a college degree. What are some of the tips or tricks that you share with them as to how to increase the probability that they're able to get those jobs? Sure. So this is

actually and a lot of people think that there's a lot of mysticism around this and something a way that it gets dismissed quite often is, oh, you must have had a connection, but I didn't. And that one, that one tends to get people, but, uh, something that my husband, Ryan, who's also my podcast co-host, um, something that we teach people is we call it finding a job backwards. And so this is going to be a little counterintuitive because really it's finding a job forwards. But if you were raised in an American school, what you're taught to do is you're taught to buy first and ask questions later. But the thing is that kind of makes no sense because here's the employee and here's the business. And you'll notice that the college is

nowhere involved in this transaction. So it makes no sense to buy a piece of paper that's supposedly a requirement for a job without first checking to see if the business will hire you without it. And so what we have people do is we have people go through multiple job listings. So let's say looking through 20 different job listings and tallying up how often they see a skill or a certification mentioned in the listing, and then going from there and learning that thing and then applying for the job. So when you think about that, the idea of, Hey, I know what I want to work, uh, from a job perspective, I can go and I can look. And if it doesn't say I need a college degree, then, you know, pretty obvious, maybe I don't need to go to college, uh, in order to get

that job. Uh, talk to me a little bit about the skills. So if I read through a job, um, kind of opening and I see in the description, it says, Hey, you need skill a, B or C. How do you guys normally help people learn that skill? Is it something where they can just go on the internet and, you know, kind of play around on Google or YouTube and end up learning or is there something else? Yeah. So the, the, the thing that Ryan and I are really big on is trying to reduce risk because the thing about college is fundamentally, it is just really financially risky. And it's so interesting because it's been painted to all of us, sold to all of us really for 12 years as the safest investment that somebody could make. When in fact, it's one of the most high risk ones you

could make, because if you're wrong, you are out. I mean, the average family spends 30 K a year for a per student. And then not only that, but most college graduates take five and a half years to graduate. So you're talking about something that's very time and money intensive. So what we tell people is look at the skills that are listed. And this is even if it does say, you know, it requires a college degree, screw it, like ignore that and just look to see what skills it actually says that you need. So if what comes up multiple times is they want you to learn how to use Adobe Premiere, you can learn Adobe Premiere for free. You know, if it tells you if the job description says they need somebody who's really competent with Excel or can use SQL or needs basic knowledge

of Python. All of those things you can learn on the internet for free. So what we advise people to do is look for zero cost options that you can self-teach and then slowly increase your learning budget as you go up. And then when you start to look at the skill development, what is the right time to go to college, right? So like developing your skills is one piece, but are there ever times where you say, no, actually going to college makes sense here. I'm assuming like a doctor or a lawyer where things are, you have to go to college, uh, to get the degree, but anything else or other situations? Yeah. So we actually did a podcast episode about this more recently because, uh, that is, that's usually the only two rebuttals that people can come up with. I say, Hey,

you don't have to go to college. And people say, Oh, but what about the doctors? But what about the lawyers? Um, one thing that I do enjoy telling people is that you can still read the law in four states just because I like, I like, I like loopholes. Um, but yeah, obviously for doctors and then for certain high level, what we found was a certain high level things where it's required for professional licensure. So medicine is one of those things, obviously highly regulated, highly controlled. Um, but you know, teaching as well, right. That's a hard one. Um, public school, public school teachers, you need it for professional licensure. It's legally required. So any field where it's legally required, yeah, you're, you're going to want to get it.

Yeah, one of the things that's fascinating about teachers specifically, and I forget all the exact numbers, but it's like 50%, I think, of public school teachers have master's degrees and 50% don't. And basically, they end up in a very similar situation from pay, from schools, from what they teach, etc. And so there are times where going and getting not just a college degree, but an advanced degree could be helpful. But then there's industries like teachers where, depending on states and kind of local jurisdictions, etc., sometimes it makes sense. Sometimes it doesn't. You actually may be able to get to the same end point without without going at the advanced degrees, at least. I think it's rare. And this is this one's going to ruffle some feathers, probably. but I do that a lot. But specifically, I have pretty strong opinions about how women are targeted for buying because college is a business. And that's something too that you're not allowed to say that, but it's an $848 billion business. And you're not allowed to say, hey, women are

the most frequent buyers and the most frequent repeat buyers of college degrees return customers are people in lower paying fields. And that's going to be women who are going into social work, women who are going into teaching. And then another, another group that the colleges did target for this was nurses. They love to, you know, more recently, that was something that my mom is actually the ER nurse and she retired because they were pressuring her to go back and get, you know, and get a degree, get an advanced degree, even though she didn't need one. She'd been nursing for, you know, quite some time, but you gotta get, you gotta get the money from the people that are spending it. So it's something that a lot of times, up close, I've not seen the

math work out for teachers, for friends of mine who are teachers getting master's degrees. I think that a lot of times that doesn't end up working out very well for them. Truthfully, the incremental increase is such that it's not actually worth what they spent. And so that's interesting. Something to consider if you're a teacher. Yeah. And how much of this is like the industries are in on the game. So it's the hospital or the, you know, nurses association or whatever, forcing people or trying to encourage them to go get education. It's the teacher's union or the teacher's association trying to get them to go get more degrees. Like, is there some kind of funny business going on between the universities and colleges and like the professional organizations or their employers,

or does that just happen to be a really good marketing on the college standpoint? And then associations just kind of do the sales for the universities? I'd probably say it's that. I think that the colleges have built a marketing machine unlike anything that we have ever seen because this is something that's intergenerational at this point. They've created people. It's like if people were selling timeshare and then they had timeshare owners selling timeshare. It's like the most effective marketing you will ever see in your life because you'll have grandparents, Parents pressure parents, pressure kids to go, and they pressure them to make this purchase, whether or not, even if the math laid out in front of them says that this is not going to be worth it for your child, and in fact, it might harm them, they can't get over the fact that they were told that this is the lowest risk, wisest thing, best way to guarantee their child access, because a lot of parents believe they're buying entry into a certain social class, right? So it's, it's interesting how we've allowed colleges to sort of take responsibility for

outcomes that have nothing to do with them. Right. And then just package it, rubber stamp it and say, this is a result of, of buying a paper from us. And then we just outsource all of our thinking and all of our, all of our assessment of people's merit to a piece of paper. It's pretty wild. It's something I see too, with the Bitcoin companies now with the crypto companies now

that it's, it's something that really, uh, that one, that one gets me. Explain more about what you're seeing there. Well, I just see a high frequency, one that kind of surprised me when I was looking into jobs, but I was surprised by how many people who are trying to build a new world are using an old world archaic metric that has really no bearing or statement on what someone's ability or intellect or practical skill level is. And so when you think about kind of going through that transition, I know that you went and spent a bunch of time trying to learn about Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies and eventually tried to go work in the industry. Talk to me about kind of what lessons you learned or what the best practices were there to help folks who want to make that same transition into the crypto industry. Like, what do you suggest they go and do? Sure. So I'm really big on self-education.

Something you hear a lot is that, you know, people say, well, education should be free or low cost. And the thing is, education is free and education is low cost. College is not. And those are two entirely separate things. And that's something that you folks are doing really well in the course. But what people need to do is they need to do their own research on what they want to learn, and they need to be bold in self-education. So they need to say, all right, I need to be better at critical thinking. I'm going to take up chess. I'm going to read. because these are things that are low cost that people can do on their own. And I personally believe scholars and educated people are actually made alone. But these are great things that people can do that reduce risk and have a higher return, I think, which is teaching themselves different things. You can improve your public speaking. You can improve your critical thinking. You can

improve your practical skills like using Excel or learning, you know, as much as learning to code is a trope nowadays, but you can teach yourself to code. And then as you go along and as you get a little bit deeper into these things, people should start looking into courses like yours, where there's curated content that allows them to tailor their education in such a way that it fills exactly whatever they couldn't figure out for themselves, because that's what I ended up doing. And I had never been in a cohort-based course before. And so it was really cool to be in your group. And I got a lot out of the network and the community in general, but also something that you folks do that you have the ability to do that colleges just can't do is

keep up with the market and the need of information as it changes so rapidly, especially with Bitcoin and cryptocurrency industries, it's just so new still. And so there's just a lot of nuance and it really helps to have curated content and to have people who can answer really dynamic questions because the answers are so different and so complex. And then when you start to think about something like the training program, I think a lot of folks are going through that and they're thinking about it in terms of

how do I get a job? How do I just go and figure out more about the industry specific knowledge? For young people, that makes a ton of sense, right? They're trying to go and start a career. But there also seems to be a lot of people who are going through what I call like upskilling, right? So I already actually have a career.

I'm already in a marketing department or an accountant, or maybe I work at a customer service or operations at a business. Uh, and now I want to kind of laterally change and I need to upskill in terms of the topic specific, uh, information. Like how does that play into folks who are looking to go get a job, whether they have a college degree or they don't like talk a little bit about that upskilling idea. Cause it, it seems to align very similarly to what you're talking about in terms of being like this self starter learner, right. And really being focused on how do I get myself, uh, in the right position, regardless of if I choose the college path or not? So that's, I actually have a good, I have a

good story for this. So it's, it's been really cool and really rewarding to see as I've, as Ryan and I've continued to build our TikTok audience. But we get, you know, the most encouraging part of seeing people that said, I did it, you know, I, I, I found this thing and I learned it. And then I applied for these jobs and I got it. And one of them was a young girl who was a teacher. And I say girl, cause she was real young. She was probably about 21 or 22 years old. And, um, she was, uh, she had a teaching degree and so she had just started teaching, but was really unhappy because stressful environment, low pay, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And so she started looking into, uh, becoming a Salesforce administrator, which is something that's actually how I got into tech was I found a listing for Salesforce administrator and I, you know, learned it. I sat down and learned it in 31 days because that's how long it takes to, to really, you know, to master, to, to master the minimum effective dose of skill to get to the point where you could

learn. Um, and something that I think is really difficult for people who already have college degrees is that they feel like they need permission, right? So a lot of them will go back to school before they would learn before they would try to teach themselves something and then try to apply. And so that's a huge thing. I think that what a lot of people really need is they just need to, to learn that they need to apply anyway. They need to just apply fearlessly to things. They need to be willing to try stuff and not be so scared to fail because a lot of it's just teaching yourself. So the only person you're failing is yourself, you know, when you're, when you're self-teaching and you don't accomplish certain learning goals in time.

So that's a big thing, but just learning to be bold and just saying, okay, this is what I think I need. I'm going to go, I'm going to go look through these skills, very boring, but just making an Excel spreadsheet and saying they want this, this, and this. I can learn this and this and then applying. And so to wrap that story up, this girl ended up learning Salesforce administration and brushing up on her Excel skills. And then she transitioned seamlessly into an admin role and she broke six figures. It's crazy, but it's just effective. It's just strategic and effective research because that's what it is. I mean, what you're talking about here is literally people without college degrees making six figures, right? Yeah. Well, I'm one of

those and it's crazy. It's crazy. I never thought like, that's never something that I thought in my life. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's surreal. It's surreal to me to talk about it now, but it's something that once I, once I, once I broke through that and I looked behind me, I was like, well, how come never, how come no one ever told me this? How come no one ever told me that like, if, if I learn skills that people need, they might hire me to do work. Right. What a simple concept. I love that uh after going through the training program talk to me a little bit about like what did you learn and how did that help you as you went looking for a job right so it's obviously not college it's nowhere near college uh but it has specific knowledge around the bitcoin crypto

industry talk to me a little bit about kind of what the lessons learned were yeah so I think for me that the most valuable part of the course was the fact that I had been doing a lot of reading like a lot of people. Um, so like a lot of women, my husband was the one who introduced me to Bitcoin. And so that was something that, you know, I came to it more from a philosophical standpoint of just saying, uh, yeah, our money's being stolen from us. Yeah. People control our money that should have no control over anything, much less money. And, um, and so I was a hundred percent behind it, but the mechanics were really intimidating, right? Because I don't have a mathematical technical background. And so for me trying to figure out where to put my energy to

learn and to further my knowledge. First, what I wanted was I wanted somebody to break down a general overview of what, of what each aspect was, how they were different, um, the underlying technologies, the underlying use cases. And so that is, is where I got a lot of value out of the course. Um, and that, and then also being in a group of people who were learning the same thing And seeing their questions and seeing that they were asking similar questions or wildly different questions that kind of spurred me to go, oh, I'm going to go look into that now. Because as of now, my next step is AI and machine learning. It's extremely interesting. And like I said, it seems surreal to be talking about that because that is not, it's never something that I was planning to do with my life. I was the most useless of the useless, I was going to school to get a communications degree. So before I dropped out and, and now I'm like, Oh, I want to be a machine learning engineer. So. And you think that you can go from college dropout, no college degree, uh, who put yourself

in a position to make six figures without the college degree. And now you want to go learn to be a machine learning engineer. Yeah. There's no rules. There's definitely no rules. Listen, literally i could talk to you for hours about this right that the fact that uh the college degree i think we should be clear about one thing there are certain jobs there are certain companies where it's really really important but the trend is that it is becoming less important and there are plenty of companies who don't give a shit about the college degree but going from a communications degree pursuit to machine learning engineer it's not like hey i want to go learn how to do css and maybe make some websites, right? It's not like, oh, I just want to be any software engineer,

machine learning engineer. Those are probably one of the most sought after engineering talent positions in the world right now, from a company standpoint, right? Companies are looking to hire those people and they'll pay them, you know, forget a hundred thousand dollars. They'll pay them half a million bucks a year. In some cases, even more than that with equity and cash. And so walk me through, what's the playbook? Like, how do you go from where you are now to becoming a machine learning engineer? Well, so this is something too, that I think I've, I've had a pretty varied work background. And this is something where you asked, you know, when, when should people go to college? And one thing that I have seen, so I actually have never not

once that there's thousands of hours of content. I have actually never told people not to go to college, which a lot of people would be surprised to learn because, uh, it's funny that I get labeled anti-college when really what I am is pro learner, you know, or pro employee, which is if you don't need to spend the money. Why would you, why would you spend the money and just bringing up the college as a financial decision? Right. But we're, we're not allowed, we're not allowed to say college is a financial decision. So, um, that's probably why, but one thing that I found to be really interesting is that because I had time, so things, things that I did instead of spending that time in college. So, you know, I worked, I worked full time. Um, and I know some people work

while they're in college, but that's, that's not often the case, you know? So during that time, I wrote a couple of books. I owned a brick and mortar tattoo shop, weird, you know, weird things, but I did, I had a lot of professional work experience, right? So I learned, you know, I learned the sales cycle. I learned how to do digital marketing. I learned a little bit, you know, a little bit on the technical side of things. So picking up, you know, basic, basic skills, learning how to use Excel, learning familiarity with HTML, if not full competency. And so, and so just getting exposed to these things made me go, huh, okay, well, if I find that these aren't as intimidating as I thought they were, how far can I push it? How far can I

push it? What can I learn? And once you start learning too, because a lot of people, when they leave college, they exit the learning mindset, not realizing that that's actually when the learning starts because you've never done a job before. And so you're about to figure out what the minimum effective dose of practical, actual, useful experience you need and what skills you actually need because a college can't tell you that they can only guess only a business can tell you that. And honestly, they're guessing too, but they're guessing a lot more accurately than a college because a college is incentivized to sell you something that takes as long as possible and costs as much as possible. Whereas a business needs to get you in the door to do work as fast

as possible. Another thing that cracks me up always is there's a big difference in perception, whether you agree that there should be or not with I don't have a college degree and I'm a college dropout for some reason. That's why we say degree free, because I was like, I'm sick of hearing that. And I don't actually say college. I don't usually say college dropout. I say college breakout because lucky me. Thank goodness I didn't do that. Because if I had, which I'm sure that I would have, if I had had $100,000 of debt on my back, I wouldn't have the freedom to explore different options. I would be stuck in the least risky route possible because I would have to be paying down my student debt because I didn't have, there was nobody paying it but me. And so

that's something that I think has been really freeing as well. Yeah. It's incredible. Where can we send people to find you on the internet or find the podcast that you and your husband are doing? Sure. So you can follow me on TikTok if you want. Be aware. I do get into scuffuffles with PhDs every once in a while. That's pretty fun. Are they on TikTok? Are the PhDs on there? You would not believe I brought up the machine learning. I brought up the machine learning thing not for myself, but because one of my followers asked about machine learning and self-teaching. And I brought up the fact that one of the most prolific, uh, trailblazers in the field right now, his name is Chris Ola. He's a teal. He's a teal fellowship grad doesn't have a bachelor's

degree and they lost their minds. They lost their minds. They're like, well, it's just, you know, he's just a genius. I'm like, is he a genius? Maybe he is, or maybe you're wrong. And people can teach themselves these things like, or that, you know, where's the scientific curiosity? Where do they go? Well, what's the difference between learning machine learning from somebody on YouTube versus in a classroom? Like at the end of the day, it's just information. $30,000 a year. Yeah. And 30,000 is probably on the low end in the, in the coming years. That's a deal. That's a deal. But what is your, what is your Tik TOK account? Yeah, sorry. So my Tik TOK is degree free. And then our podcast, actually, if you want to find

us, we have a pretty cool newsletter. We send out jobs, resources, all kinds of stuff. So it's degree free. Oh, look, there it is. Um, it's degreefree.co forward slash sign up and you can get our newsletter. Our podcast is on there. And then we are launching our first cohort. If you want to learn how to find jobs backwards on, uh, June 1st. Oh, amazing. Go back real quick to the degree free website guys. Uh, we don't care about rules here. We care about what works education, work business. We break down how to get where you want to go. No college required. Let's do this. I love this. This is like such a no brainer. And I think that probably a huge part of the value that you all provide is not just like the tactics and techniques on how somebody can do it, but also it's having people see that it's possible. Like people freak out the second that you said, hey, I make six figures a year and I don't have a college degree. People go nuts. Right. And they're like, oh, that's possible. Like no one ever told me that. And then once they know it's possible, it's like, OK, now how do I do it? Yeah, that's what I say. If I can do it and I, we use a phrase in our house, any old idiot,

but I'm like, if I can do it, it's like, I'm any old idiot. If you can, if I can do it, you can do it too. And I mean that in the most, in the most empowering way possible, but just apply people apply anyway, apply furiously, ignore experience, student degree requirements. If you think you could do the work or you think you'd learn the work, just apply. Yeah. I love this. All right. So at degree free on Tik TOK, I'm not on Tik TOK, but, uh, I'll, uh, uh, I'll let the PhDs, uh, uh, jump in there and argue with you guys in the comments. Uh, and then you're on Twitter as well. And then people can just go to degree free network dot com. Uh, yeah. So it's actually degree free.co. Okay. All right. Degree free.co for anyone who

wants to, uh, to go there, but, uh, awesome Hannah, listen, thank you so much for, uh, for taking the time to do this. I, I, uh, I think this is awesome. And, uh, anyone who is listening or watching. Definitely go check it out. The world is not going to be built on college degrees in the future. That's for sure. No, for sure not. All right. Thank you. Hi. Bye. Yeah. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you guys enjoyed this one. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to try to transition to get a new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to palmscryptocourse.com we've developed a curriculum with the top teams across the industry

it's a three-week intensive training program with over 50 events packed into that three-week time period go to palmscryptocourse.com to learn more and i'll meet you guys for the next episode