The Pomp Podcast - Bitcoin Adoption Is Spreading To Unexpected Places | Seamus Rocca

Starting point is 00:00:00 This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales. Using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify. what's up everyone this is anthony pompliano many of you know me as pomp you're listening to the pomp podcast which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them

Starting point is 00:00:42 for hours while i ask questions in an effort to learn so it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform watch episodes on youtube and tell your friends and family about the podcast my goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. On exchanges,

Starting point is 00:01:25 I can imagine that the average sort of customer segment is very much younger day trading. Ours is much more of an investment long term mindset and is very much reflected with the the average age of our customers, being perhaps a little bit older than people would expect. The second thing that might be a little bit surprising is. What's going on, guys? We've got a great conversation today with Seamus Rocca. He is the CEO of Zappo Bank. They're one of the most important, critical pieces of infrastructure in the Bitcoin community. But here's the thing about them.

Starting point is 00:01:57 They've been around for a long time. They have a lot of narrative violations that they see in their data. Older people are actually using Bitcoin. In the geographies that you would not expect, Seamus is here to explain to us who's adopting Bitcoin. What is the impact on the market? How are things like ETFs and Bitcoin treasury companies actually affecting Bitcoin and the people who want to use Bitcoin? And then he talks about where he thinks areas are going to actually be very popular in the future that no one's talking about now. This conversation is a little bit different than normal.

Starting point is 00:02:24 It's very interesting to understand from one of the key players in the market what's happening now, who's using Bitcoin, and where is Bitcoin and Bitcoin products going in the future? Here's my conversation with Seamus Raka. Seamus, a great place to start this conversation is you guys have a bunch of data. You see where your users are coming from. You see what they're doing. And you guys see adoption of Bitcoin in areas that I never thought that we would see. uh one of them is there is a very large portion of older people bitcoin historically has been adopted by younger people but now we're getting this kind of older generation that's starting to

Starting point is 00:02:56 adopt this asset explain a little bit what you're seeing here and like what are the ramifications for bitcoin because everyone was waiting for the big wealth transfer for like young people to get their parents money and then they were going to go put in bitcoin but maybe the parents are going to put in bitcoin themselves before they ever give it to their kids there is an element of that i I think there's two things that some of it might be surprising, some of it might not. One is the average age of the Zappo customer, what we see, and also the geographic distribution. If you think about from an age perspective, the average Zappo customer is middle-aged. They're sort of 45, 50 plus, and I'm probably being kind.

Starting point is 00:03:36 and they're naturally quite conservative which is a bit of a sort of misnomer because if you think about bitcoin it's normally associated with people that are you know high risk and super aggressive day trading a lot of you know our uh our customers are relatively early adopters so they're maybe 50 now but given that we started in 2013 you know they probably invested in bitcoin 10 years ago. And that is sort of the generation that was disenfranchised after the financial crisis, which is sort of when Bitcoin started around 2009, 2010. And early on, they saw in Bitcoin an alternative. They saw something that, hey, you know, at $100 or $1,000 a Bitcoin, the downside risk was very low. The upside potential was huge. And they saw something

Starting point is 00:04:30 in Bitcoin, whereby, you know, this could really be something and it's worth me giving an allocation of my wealth. Ten years later, it's 99% of their wealth. So now it's their most cherished asset. And it's probably something that they're looking to retire with. So as a result, our average customer, it tends to look for two things. One is, okay, I love the security of the vault, but I want liquidity. Now I've got this asset that has gone up dramatically in value, but maybe I want to buy a house or a car or take my family on vacation.

Starting point is 00:05:11 So they want to borrow against their Bitcoin. So that's sort of one customer cohort. The other one has Bitcoin and similarly to the first cohort, doesn't want to sell it. They've amassed such wealth with their Bitcoin and they can see even more upside that both cohorts don't really want to sell. But the second cohort is looking for yield. They're looking at different ways of how can I invest my Bitcoin and earn some yield in a relatively risk-averse way. So earning 3% or 4% is much better than sort of these DeFi protocols that promise you 8,000 APR. they're quite comfortable earning 3% or 4% because that's enough for them to live on.

Starting point is 00:05:54 So they can live on that at the current price of Bitcoin without needing to sell Bitcoin. So as a result, it's kind of interesting that, yes, on exchanges, I can imagine that the average sort of customer segment is very much younger day trading. Ours is much more of an investment long-term mindset and is very much reflected with the average age of our customers, being perhaps a little bit older than people would expect. The second thing that might be a little bit surprising is the regions. I mean, we started very much as, you know,

Starting point is 00:06:27 our founder, Wences Casares, is Argentinian, and he saw his family lose his wealth three times in his lifetime in terms of, you know, hyperinflation and confiscation of government, of deposits by the government. So from that perspective, we were born almost from an emotional response to that, which is Bitcoin is digital gold. For people in emerging markets, Bitcoin is not so much a tradable asset, but a store of wealth. Something that you can keep safe and hopefully is something that long term doesn't suffer the same hyperinflation that your local currency does.

Starting point is 00:07:00 And I think that sometimes that in the US or in Europe, in more sort of evolved economies, that's not something that we've ever had to grapple with. If you were raised in the US on the US dollar and me in the UK and sterling, we never had to worry about hyperinflation. Well, for people in emerging markets, it's a very real thing, and they view Bitcoin as an alternative. So we essentially have a lot of middle-aged people from emerging markets. That's essentially the composition of our customer base. Now, when you think about these people, one of the things you said is that they're very conservative. And I think that that is actually pretty interesting, is because Bitcoin as an asset, on one hand, it is highly, highly volatile. People look at it as a speculative tool.

Starting point is 00:07:40 They're buying because they want it to go up 10x. On the other hand, there are people who say, no, I save in Bitcoin. And it is my replacement for bonds. I don't think I know of an asset where it's both, right? Like nobody's like, hey, I'm saving in real estate. And oh, by the way, I'm speculating because I think it's going to go up 10x. Stocks, you know, I think people look at it more speculative than saving. And so when you see this, these people in the emerging markets that are going and adopting

Starting point is 00:08:02 this asset, I think in the United States, we constantly are like, oh, mass adoption, mass adoption, mass adoption. These folks, though, do they have like a million bucks, $20, right? Like, how do you think about how much capital is coming into this? And is it a persistent flow or is it simply just, hey, I'm buying Bitcoin and I'm holding it and whatever I bought at some point is kind of my stash, if you will, and that's going to be my Bitcoin. Sure.

Starting point is 00:08:28 I think it's a little bit more of the latter. You know, the average customer that comes to a Zapper is an early adopter and either they bought the bitcoin with us or over time as the asset appreciated in price all of a sudden the risk of making a mistake through self-custody or having it on an exchange after ftx that risk kind of got a little bit too high you almost don't trust yourself anymore to hold on to that asset you know if you're 22 years old and an engineer and you're comfortable with code then self-custody is a very good solution for you but if you're you know like me 52 and not a particularly good engineer then i don't trust myself to keep all my wealth uh as self-custody because if i make

Starting point is 00:09:12 one mistake i will lose all my money so from that perspective there's an element of you know this fact that you would trust your bitcoin with somebody like zappo means that you're actually conservative from the point of view that you're willing to trust somebody else but it's actually because you don't feel that you've got the skills to do it yourself. I think that's kind of one reason. And the other one is this idea that we're essentially an offshore private bank is also incredibly helpful. Because if you think about Bitcoin, Bitcoin is the fact that it's sovereign.

Starting point is 00:09:45 No government can essentially manipulate it or print more Bitcoin. There is this element of it's sovereign. Essentially, we represent that in that we're an offshore bank, and therefore you've got your Bitcoin in an offshore bank, it's just essentially totally disassociated from where you live geographically. And I think if you live in emerging markets, that's incredibly appealing.

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Starting point is 00:11:24 that simple mining.io slash pump to get started today with simple mining they make it simple now uh you guys have this uh this vault that you talked about so um i i think i'm gonna come and uh and come see this thing we have to talk to me i don't know if you know this right all right now i don't know uh uh if i'm supposed to share this i'm gonna say you can tell me later if i got to uh delete this but as part of this they told me i got to go to a location they told me location Okay. This is a place I've heard of before that you got to take a helicopter to a different place. You take another helicopter to a different place. They said, Hey, you can't bring your phone. You got to put it in a bag. You got to wait a minute. It's like real security. I thought I was just

Starting point is 00:12:03 going to go, you know, like going to a bank or something. Right. Describe a little bit as to what's going on with the vault and the security and kind of how you guys have set all this up. And I think that's probably one of the big differentiators and the big things that when people think of your company, they're like, Hey, these guys, you know, it's kind of a different game that they're playing than maybe others sure so essentially what we're doing is you know this idea that because bitcoin is digital sometimes the security aspects of it feel a little bit intangible so we we've designed a way of doing the custody in that sort of the digital meets the physical so all of the private keys that we hold on behalf of our customers are sharded so those

Starting point is 00:12:47 are kept in different locations. And then we have a cosigner that essentially brings the shards back together into the original private keys. So that cosigner is what we keep in the vault. The other shards are kept in different locations. So actually, the Swiss bunker that you're coming to see is only one of four different servers and locations that we have that build the overall security. And it used to be a nuclear military bunker that has been turned into a level four server security. So you're going to have to go through all sorts of securities that you would expect. And it was originally designed actually for storing gold. And one of the best features that I like about it is you need to get on a lift to be able to get to the floor where the servers

Starting point is 00:13:37 are. And because they originally had gold, they were worried about people stealing what was in there so it weighs you on the way back out to see if you weigh more than when you went in to see if you've actually stolen anything and have anything in your pockets but that's the insane level of security that we have and the reason i clearly we can't take all of our customers there right but the reason why we take people like yourself anthony is because we we want to make sure that that people understand that this is neither a gimmick neither something that isn't real you know it's a little bit of a myth of that bunker in switzerland and by taking you there we can actually show look this is very real we spend close to 20 million dollars a year on keeping our

Starting point is 00:14:20 customers bitcoin safe and there's a limit of you know those you know bitcoin is about financial freedom for those who want to do self-custody by all means knock yourself out for us it's a bit like look can you compete with our infrastructure you don't need to let us take care of it for you And there's many benefits to doing custody of a self-custody. The biggest one really is not just the quality of our security, but more importantly, inheritance. You know, you've got all this wealth. If something, God forbid, happened to you,

Starting point is 00:14:52 you'd want your kids to be able to inherit that money. And we facilitate that through being able to have a beneficiary that you've allocated to that wealth. As an example, there are many other examples, but I think that we, you know, we wanted to show you the vault Because at the end of the day, you can sort of put the voice out there that says, this thing is real. I've seen it for myself. I wanted to bring my phone to get an Instagram photo.

Starting point is 00:15:15 And you guys said I can't bring my phone. I said, hold on a second. This is what the heck? Bring like a digital camera or something. You guys can certify the photo or something. All right. So I think a big thing that people believed before the ETFs was, hey, the ETFs are going to come. If they're popular, it's going to be a really big headwind for a lot of companies, right?

Starting point is 00:15:34 People just go buy the ETF. The ETFs have exploded. People have been very excited about these things. A hundred plus billion dollars have gone into them. I could see it going one of two ways. I could see that the ETFs are a headwind and, you know, kind of extract value from kind of the crypto native players. But I also could see similar like bank tellers and ATMs.

Starting point is 00:15:52 You know, one of the things that was so interesting is they used to say that when the ATMs came out that you'd need less bank tellers. Now there's more bank tellers than when the ATMs came out, right? And so it kind of like ATMs increased access. access led to more people in the financial system that meant that you needed more people to service them what has been the impact on the business uh since the uh etfs got approved for us i don't think it's been something that's been noticeable certainly not but not up until now i think what the etf has done really is it's helped to fast track a lot of the alternative products that i

Starting point is 00:16:27 was mentioning before like this idea of borrowing against your bitcoin uh this idea of you know investing and looking for yield. With the ETFs coming out, all of a sudden, those adjacent products, before the ETF going to a regulator and saying, hey, these are the kind of products we want to do, would have been, oh, I don't really understand Bitcoin. How the hell is this going to work? All of a sudden, when you sort of replace Bitcoin with ETF and it's seen as more of a traditional asset, it makes perfect sense to everyone. So what we've seen is it's actually helped us fast track a lot of the products that we wanted to launch because they make a lot more sense in terms of the adoption i think the reality is for new entrants into the market so family

Starting point is 00:17:12 offices tradfi the etf is incredibly convenient and a very easy way for them to trade the volatility for early adopters that actually hold physical bitcoin we're still a very attractive proposition and also they see us as part of the Bitcoin community. People who are like-minded, we think like them, we understand their concerns, we understand their needs because we're Bitcoiners ourselves. So I think that, look, like with any market, there is room and space for everyone.

Starting point is 00:17:41 I think the ETFs are going to be, you know, for the big institutional players in TradFi space. We are here to serve, you know, almost like the early adopters and people that through the price action now really deserve private banking type services that perhaps the big banks wouldn't be able to offer because if they turn up to them and go, hey, I've got all these Bitcoin,

Starting point is 00:18:05 they know what to do with the ETF. They still don't know what to do with actual physical Bitcoin. Well, you know, one of the interesting things is obviously Wences being very involved in the business and helping to create this thing. He kind of is, I would assume, like one of the target type customers

Starting point is 00:18:21 or personas that you would go after, right? early to Bitcoin, understands it, wants to hold it, et cetera. Talk a little bit about him in particular. You know, Wentz is somebody who I always say is is disrespected in the Bitcoin community through omission, not commission. Everyone knows that he has done a great job and all this kind of stuff, but I feel like he doesn't get enough credit for how important he was early in Bitcoin, both in terms of kind of orange pilling a lot of these Silicon Valley folks who ended up being, you know, big drivers and legitimizers of Bitcoin, but also, you know, obviously Zappo and many other things in the ecosystem, I think can be traced back to whether

Starting point is 00:19:00 it was his ideas, his advice, his capital. He just feels like somebody who was so important, but doesn't quite get the notoriety and respect that maybe he deserves. I think to some degree, I would agree with that. And by the way, you know, Wences is not just a mentor but a dear friend and he certainly orange-pilled me and like you say many other people what I would say is like you know the people who know know 100 percent and what I what I can tell you about Wences is that you know back in the day he did his evangelizing and orange-pilling and and he's taken a back seat to that because other people are doing a good job But he's still very much involved and he's incredibly influential.

Starting point is 00:19:47 And I've never met anybody more convincing in being able to tell the story of why Bitcoin and why you should sort of at the very least either have an allocation to Bitcoin or think about how it could be part of your career. And, you know, it's thanks to Wences that I've been now involved with Bitcoin and Zappa for nine years. And it's not just me, many, many other people. So I think, but it's one of those things where he's deliberately stepped back because he doesn't want the limelight. He doesn't want that sort of kudos of, I was one of the early guys. Like you said before, the people that need to know, know, and we all owe a lot to Wences.

Starting point is 00:20:27 But, you know, he's at a stage in his life and his career and a level of wealth that he doesn't need to be in the limelight anymore. i um uh i've heard about uh some of the things that he's been doing he seems like he's enjoying his life so good good for him um let's talk about uh the bitcoin treasury companies those obviously have been a big rise by etfs um what have you seen there or is there something that maybe there they could be potential customers for you guys partners for you guys is there any impact in terms of the the customers that you do have wanting to allocate to those versus directly to bitcoin i think one of the things that you know is super interesting in the treasury space where we see ourselves being able to sort of be part of that.

Starting point is 00:21:10 It's similar to what's happening in the mining community where, you know, as if you think about miners a few years ago, they would struggle with raising working capital because they would need to pay for the electricity. But then, of course, the Bitcoin itself wouldn't come to life through its mine. So you've got all this cash that you need and the Bitcoin comes later. So you're always got this working capital imbalance. Whereas once they became listed companies,

Starting point is 00:21:34 that can sort of dilute themselves and raise the funds and have that working capital available to be able to grow. And I think to some degree with the treasury capital model, it's that same ethos. And what we're seeing with the treasury companies is a lot of innovation on how to sort of in-bill leverage within that strategy. So all of a sudden we're seeing, you know,

Starting point is 00:21:55 a lot of financial engineering and structuring using Bitcoin that we would only have dreamt about five years ago. And it's very much becoming a reality. So where we would come in is that for our institutional offering, we are a perfect partner for those types of institutions that need to hold physical Bitcoin, but might need adjacent products like borrowing against it or investing it for yield or being able to convert some of that into stable coins. one of the few, if not the only bank in the world that will replace Swift with the ability to sell and receive stable coins. So imagine if you're a treasury company, the ability that you have a crypto native bank that can serve your needs feels like we could be a very strong trading, a very strong sort of financial partner to a lot of those institutions. But yeah, I think there's certainly opportunities in the space.

Starting point is 00:22:50 What I think I welcome is the innovation that's happening. But look, with leverage and any financial innovation, there's also caution. You know, the risk management practices need to be there. But I'm going to say so far, you know, they're doing incredibly well. They're holding out. And it seems that, you know, they're being incredibly well run. So it's an asset to the industry. Hi, I'm Matt Hogan, CIO of crypto asset manager Bitwise.

Starting point is 00:23:16 Look, crypto can be confusing. There's so much noise and the space changes so quickly. That's why every week I write a five-minute memo on the biggest stories impacting crypto. In plain English. Why is Bitcoin up or down? What are people missing? Where should investors look next? Get the lowdown every week.

Starting point is 00:23:36 Sign up to get the weekly CIO memo delivered straight to your inbox. Go to bitwiseinvestments.com slash CIO memo. That's bitwiseinvestments.com slash CIO memo. Carefully consider the extreme risks associated with crypto before investing. When you think about your business going forward, there are a lot of things that are changing in the market. We've talked about some of the access products, both in terms of public equities and ETFs. Obviously, Wall Street is showing up. There's a lot of traditional players who want to custody these assets, whether they're big banks, custodians, other financial players.

Starting point is 00:24:11 What are the areas that when you're talking to your team, you're saying, this is what we got to do to win in 2026. This is what we've got to do to be prepared to hold the moat that we have and maybe even gain market, you know, kind of share in the coming year. I think there's a couple of things, but I would say that the key one is that we want to differentiate on service, which is, if you think about, you know, we are quite a niche offering. And if you have, you know, 0.1 of a Bitcoin in your trading, there are plenty of platforms out there that are going to be able to serve you well. But like I said before, there's also a whole segment of people that have a lot of Bitcoin that are looking for a little bit more than your sort of basic services

Starting point is 00:25:02 and want that private banking experience of having a relationship manager, of having a high-touch white-glove service experience. So I think that's one of the things that we're certainly going to focus on next year, which is having that trusted relationship with somebody that understands your needs, knows everything there is to know

Starting point is 00:25:23 about your financial situation with Zappo and outside, creates these sort of long-lasting relationships. So in 2026, it's really about how we leverage and maximize those relationships and sort of capitalize on the fact that we've been in this industry for a very long time. So that's number one. Number two, I think it's about how we innovate our products. We, you know, there's a lot of innovation in TradFi being thought out around Bitcoin or whatever. But again, it's very much with that trader's mindset. The mindset that we have is we think of Bitcoin as money, as digital money.

Starting point is 00:26:01 which is, what are the things you would expect to do with your money in a bank? How can we make sure that our customers can do those things with their Bitcoin? So something as simple as, yeah, we offer the custody to keep your Bitcoin safe, but you can make payments in Bitcoin or in fiat. You can spend your Bitcoin with a card. We've got savings products to unyield. You can borrow against it, but also even making investments. So the idea of saying, okay, I can buy the S&P 500 directly with my Bitcoin.

Starting point is 00:26:26 I can, you know, buy stocks with my Bitcoin. I can live on the Bitcoin standard, you know, because there's a lot of people, especially if you're an early adopter and you have a lot of Bitcoin, selling your Bitcoin is an incredibly tough decision. And I always say, like, selling your Bitcoin is a bit like asking me which one of my children do I love more. So we certainly want to be seen as innovators in the space in terms of doing more than just training with Bitcoin, but actually creating genuine use cases of things that you can do with Bitcoin. it. Now, when you think through that, is there anything that we have not yet seen in the market that you think will become dominant use cases? You know, if you went back 10 years, no one would have thought stable coins would have been this big. They became very, very big, right? I don't think people would have seen this quickly. Wall Street, you know, basically just bending the knee,

Starting point is 00:27:15 having just the market say, hey, you got to get in, right? We, you know, we saw Vanguard recently, the old CEO said, no, we're not doing it now. He's not the CEO anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are some of the things maybe that you guys see people doing with Bitcoin or products that you guys will offer where they may not be big today, but you think it's an important part of the market? I think we'll see a little bit more of the same. And while that answer sounds a bit boring, let me sort of explain that a little bit more, which is stable coins have sort of really taken off with the banks and what have you. Because even though there's all this conversation about CBDCs and everything else, there's a lot of downside to CBDCs. And frankly, stablecoins like Tether are already out there, they're operational, and they're almost like a genuine use case where banks could be using it today to make transfers and weekend payments, making it cheaper, faster, more reliable, and all of that. So all of a sudden it's like, okay, we can build this ourselves.

Starting point is 00:28:19 In fact, we don't have the know-how or we can adopt it. So what I see with stablecoins is a little bit more of acceptance around the adoption of what's already there rather than every bank trying to create their own stablecoin, which is probably what we've seen in the past. Then on the Bitcoin side, what I would say is twofold. One is more yield products. I think for that cohort of Bitcoiners

Starting point is 00:28:43 that have got a fair chunk of Bitcoin, if they're early adopters, their mindset is Bitcoin is going to a million. So therefore, I want to create wealth with the Bitcoin. I'm looking for yield, but I don't want to sell. So they're going to be looking for more yield products. And the third and last one I would make is consolidation. There's a lot of amazing technology

Starting point is 00:29:09 and a lot of other tokens and coins that are out there. But essentially, with Bitcoin being an open protocol, a lot of that innovation can really be subsumed into Bitcoin as either a layer two or through, you know, wrapping use cases around it. No pun intended with, you know, wrapping BTC or what have you. So I think we'll see sort of more acceptance that, OK, Bitcoin is by far the dominant token. the reason why people like vanguard are accepting is because their customers are asking for it and that's that's a massive difference to you know going from building and they will come to your customers generally want this product and therefore it forces the big players to find ways of being able to offer it and you know are you going to offer 200 coins now customers are going to go to

Starting point is 00:30:03 coinbase or binance if that's what they want um it's much easier to figure out okay let's dip our toe in with bitcoin and i think again that goes into the dominance of of bitcoin within within the space as the widely acceptance accepted sort of king of the tokens so i think we're just going to see more and more of that i think uh i think you're on to something there my friend um it's uh it's a pleasure to talk with you you know we've worked together for a long time and um i think that every single person that has used your product usually comes back to us with some glowing review. So it's great to kind of hear what you guys are thinking about. Where can we send people if they want to check out Zappo and learn more about some of the products you guys

Starting point is 00:30:41 offer? Sure. Just zappobank.com and plenty of news there about what we're working on, what's coming up. That website has been revamped all the time. So if you've had a look at it recently, have another look again. It's always been worked on. Amazing. Well, Seamus, thank you so much for the time today i'm cheering for you guys and we'll do it again soon thanks anthony

The Pomp Podcast - Bitcoin Adoption Is Spreading To Unexpected Places | Seamus Rocca

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