The Pomp Podcast - Bitcoin Market Just ROTATED This Month - Here's What's Next | Jordi Visser

Episode Date: November 15, 2025

Jordi Visser is a macro investor with over 30 years of Wall Street experience. He also writes a Substack called “VisserLabs” and puts out investing YouTube videos. In this conversation, we break down the recent sell-off in asset prices — why the absence of a clear catalyst matters, how it may change the way you think about your portfolio, and where Jordy believes capital could rotate over the next 12–16 months. We also dig into Bitcoin’s lackluster performance, whether investors should be worried, and how to interpret the current market environment.======================Check out my NEW show for daily bite-sized breakdowns of the biggest stories in finance, technology, and politics: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://pompdesk.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠======================Need liquidity without selling your crypto? Take out a Figure Crypto-Backed Loan (https://www.figuremarkets.co/pomp), allowing you to borrow against your BTC, ETH, or SOL with 12-month terms and no prepayment penalties. They have the lowest rates in the industry at 8.91%, allowing you to access instant cash or buy more Bitcoin without triggering a tax event. Unlock your crypto’s potential today at Figure! https://www.figuremarkets.co/pomp Disclosures: Figure Lending LLC dba Figure. Equal Opportunity Lender. NMLS 1717824. Terms and conditions apply.======================DeFi Development Corp. (Nasdaq: DFDV) is pioneering a new category in crypto investing with the first Solana-focused Digital Asset Treasury. DFDV offers public market exposure to Solana’s growth, yield, and onchain innovation, offering investors a leveraged way to participate in a trillion-dollar opportunity. Learn more about why Solana and why DFDV at SolanaTo10K.com.======================BitcoinIRA: Buy, sell, and swap 80+ cryptocurrencies in your retirement account. Take 3 minutes to open your account & get connected to a team of IRA specialists that will guide you through every step of the process. Go to https://bitcoinira.com/pomp/ to earn up to $1,000 in rewards.======================Timestamps: 0:00 – Intro1:49 – Why assets are selling off with no clear catalyst8:15 – Will markets stabilize into year-end?10:24 – The CoreWeave bottleneck & AI infrastructure limits12:37 – The next big theme: AI + pharmaceuticals18:53 – Innovation waves: humanoids, pharma, bitcoin25:04 – Bitcoin sentiment, distribution & long-term thesis38:32 – Jordi’s winners through 2026

This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales. Using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify. what's up everyone this is anthony pompliano many of you know me as pomp you're listening to the pomp podcast which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them

for hours while i ask questions in an effort to learn so it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform watch episodes on youtube and tell your friends and family about the podcast my goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people so let's get into today's episode anthony pompliano runs pomp investments all views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of pomp investments you should not treat any opinion expressed by pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy but only as an expression of his personal opinion this podcast is for informational purposes only bitcoin has a

market cap where history will tell you when you get to this level, you're real. Like you don't have to doubt it anymore. Could we go to 80,000? I guess we could if the stock market falls off, but I don't think the S&P is going to fall off. I think we're at the end of a liquidation of growth stocks and that next year growth will not be a good factor. The narrative is bad right now because the price is bad. If the price is back up, the narrative will be very good. What's going on, guys? Today, we've got a great conversation with Jordy Visser. In this conversation, we're going to talk about the recent sell-off in asset prices, why no catalyst may actually have you thinking differently about your portfolio, how you can also see maybe where

capital is going to rotate next. Jordy shares a bunch of really unique ideas of where he thinks returns are going to come from over the next 12, 14, 16 months. And then lastly, of course, we got to talk about Bitcoin. What's going on with the price? Why is it not performing? Should you be worried? And whether we are actually entering it to a bear market or not? All that and much more this week with Jordy Visser. All right, Jordy, I thought this week we could start off, people are very worried about asset prices selling off. We've seen tech stocks sell off. We've seen Bitcoin sell off. And maybe a big difference between April and today. In April, everyone knew what the catalyst was. President of the United States comes out with a science fair

poster and he says, hey, here's all the tariffs we're going to do. People freak out. Empty shelves. Great Depression is coming. World's ending. Sell everything. Got it. I don't know if there's really a catalyst that you can point to as to what's driving to sell off in the same way. All right. So this will be my chance to kind of spend at least the beginning part of this talking about things that I've known and learned over the years about trading and about markets. And I think for people, I know there's a lot of people who trade and they don't think about the macro environment. So normally, like you said, when Liberation Day is happening, it's easy for people to kind of think about, well, this is

happening because of this. I don't believe this is rational. Let me go. That's not what's happening right now. So you mentioned a lot of things that are falling. Here's what's not falling. The S&P 500 as of yesterday's close was down one and a half percent for the month, and it was still up 14% for the year. Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan made new all-time highs in the last six days. That's not a bear market. So I think I'm going to bring a little bit of insight to people on what happens this time of year. Because a lot goes on in October, November, December that I think people that are trading should kind of keep in the back of their mind, take it out every year when they get into it. And this leads to a personal recommendation for everyone, especially

in Bitcoin, since a lot of the audience is there. We get caught in these emotional moments. And then six months later, if Bitcoin's 120,000, everyone forgets them. So these moments happen. They're part of just our lives and they're part of trading so the way my father always taught me hey if the way your betting's not making sense then just sit out a couple races and because he was handicapping horse races said wait until you get things that you really like so if you think something is off at three is off on the board at 20 to one and you think it should be five to one that's a good spread if you think something should be five to one and it's seven to one, sit that one out. Like, don't look for a little bit of value. Look for big value. The fat pitches that Buffett would

The fat pitches. That's exactly it. And I don't think the panic at the market level is there, but here's what's happening. We've seen since Oracle. So I want people to go back to the day because I was actually at a Robinhood event the day that Oracle released earnings and it gapped up 30%. One of the largest moves by a big stock ever may have been. It was a 30% gain for a stock that approached that day a trillion dollars in market cap. Since that day, it peaked and it's been going down and now its debt is selling off. CDS of Ford is going up. So we've hit a new point and this started with Oracle. Then we had the Fed rate cut in September. And again, a lot of things shifted. And I've talked on here about unwind trades that were happening first at the quant

level, but now it's starting to spread. Retail also got hurt. Now, when retail got hurt is when we started to get into October. Gold peaked. But more importantly, these power like Oklo and a lot of these names that have no revenue, they started to get hit hard. And a lot of these names, quantum names, nuclear names, they're down 40% to 60%. And these were big call option names. These were big things. Then you had Palantir come out. So you can see kind of the dominoes that are playing out that lead to a rotation. Now, I wrote a paper this week about CoreWeave. There was a great post by someone, Kai Wu. I don't know if you've ever seen him, but he posted something about how companies that have lots of CapEx, how they typically do. We're at a weird point in the

cycle. So the S&P is barely off the all-time highs. We have all these companies that have done a tremendous amount of CapEx. And now with CoreWeave, we actually saw a company that had to cut their CapEx guidance, not for all the bubble reasons, but because we have shortages of physical stuff. And so I believe that we're in a late cycle type trade. Commodities, the Bloomberg Commodity Index made a three-year high this week. That's not typical in a slow growth period. The market is rotating away from what has worked now for two to three years. And these are companies that to me have made a peak. So growth as a factor has made a peak. And I believe now we're going to be in a period where there are new things that are going to be

leadership. The reason I said November is an important time period, October is when mutual fund tax loss selling typically happens. 50% of the S&P 1500, believe it or not, is down for the year. So there was a lot of selling that went on in that that caused some of the disruption. Then you get into November, you've got the bank's end of year. And as traders and someone who worked at a bank, you have no upside in November. So you don't take as much risk. That leads to if people come in to buy call options, you're like, I'm not going to get in a position where I sell too much. You start widening out your markets, people get trapped. At the same time, buybacks start to slow down because we go in the blackout period and they're really important this time of year.

They're starting to kick back in now and they're gradually every week going to get bigger, but you end up with that kind of risk. And then you get into the hedge fund side. If you're someone who's had a good year this year, and I've talked to some of these portfolio managers over the course of the last couple of weeks, they don't want to lose the bonus that they have and they're paid on a performance. So if they start losing money when the AI trade and the momentum trade unwinds, they're more likely to sell out of things. So when you put all these factors together and then you add in the fact that the people that have lost for the year are getting stopped out. I believe there's a massive rotation that is going to continue to go on, but we've already

done enough damage for these names that are down 40 to 60%. Oracle's already gone down enough. We have Oracle's earnings coming out in two weeks. We have NVIDIA coming out next week. I think the market will find a way to stabilize. And then once people kind of stop trading and they're like, okay, I'm going to wait until the holidays are over, then the buybacks will start to drift things higher. But I do think for people trading there, there's going to be new sectors that lead and a new story for next year, for sure. Now, when we get towards the end of the year, there's a lot of people who say, well, maybe some fund managers will chase. Some people look at Q4 as normally really good performance. Bitcoin, I think average return in Q4 going back to 2015 is like 60%, 59%.

There's all these things of like good performance, but then the dynamics you're talking about may be counter to that. Dan Ives came out on Friday morning and he said he remains firmly bullish. He believes that this is kind of a short-term panic and there is the sell-off, but he sees us rallying hard into the end of the year. Eric Balkchunas pointed out that on Thursday and Friday of this week, there was actually pretty low volume. There was a spike, but it wasn't even in the top 20 days from a volume perspective. And therefore, that usually signals some type of short-term lived drawdown rather than like a full-on panic where you get a really big spike of volume. And so he's like, again, who knows what will happen, but that's kind of a bullish sign.

And then you've got somebody like a Ryan Dietrich from Carson Group who points out that Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, this year have been fantastic performance. Thursday, Friday has actually all year long been negative and Thursday being the biggest drawdown day of the week. When you look at those factors of what I would consider less like single name assets and more kind of structural or trend based stuff. Do we rally into the end of the year? Do we go sideways? Are you worried we go lower? Like how do you start to think about, okay, we got six weeks or so left into the end of the year here. Are you bullish, bearish or kind of agnostic? So I'm bullish into the end of the year, but I want you to separate two of the people that you met and just

realize this is what, why, when I was talking about Ryan Dietrich is talking about the S&P 500. Correct. Dan Ives is talking about the tech sector. Correct. I do not agree that the tech sector is just going to continue to do what it had done. I do not agree with that at all. I think we've got a problem going on that is the CoreWeave thing. If he didn't acknowledge CoreWeave, and I haven't read what Dana said, that was a warning sign that led me to writing a paper that at some point, multiples matter. Explain a little bit more what is the CoreWeave situation just so people fully understand. So CoreWeave came out with their earnings report and they said they had insatiable demand.

And that is the part that Dan Ives cares about. So for everyone listening, when you're hearing tech, at some point, tech needs the infrastructure to be built out or it can't grow any faster. And what CoreWeave said was we're cutting our CapEx because we can't get the power shells from the data center. And what I basically said was, at some point, CapEx and capital needs concrete. And there's no concrete. And it's metaphorical. But the reality is, this is where we've talked about energy, energy, power, power. At some point, the gas turbine situation matters. So everyone who's been long GE, Vrnova, are they going to be fine five years from now? Probably.

But what people have to realize with the demand side that is going exponential, at some point, the commodity stuff is a necessity to make sure that the compute can actually happen. We have plenty of semiconductors. So that was a trade that I was more interested in. And I still think the semiconductors will be fine for next year, although I'd be more looking for the names that are smaller. What Dan is depending on is that the build-out continues. Because if the build-out doesn't continue, and what CoreWeave said starts to, like,

God forbid we hear the same thing from NVIDIA and Oracle, the AI trade will continue to unwind. And what will happen is multiple compression. The earnings are still going to grow. The orders are still there. I mean, Oracle still has a massive backorder, but backorders are only good if you can get the earnings and the dollars in the door. And that's what I would be worried about for them. I want to focus on the AI adopters. So why are banks making new highs? The opposite of CapEx is expense reduction. I want to be along the companies that are reducing expenses that are now going to benefit from AI, and I want to be involved in the biggest AI theme, which I'm going to do this weekend on my video for about half it. I would say this weekend is the one weekend that for traders, if they haven't ever gone to YouTube and watched it, I will cover with charts, a lot of the momentum stuff, a lot of the growth stuff,

but I will also cover what I believe is going to be the biggest theme for next year, which is pharmaceuticals with AI. Interesting. Explain a little bit more just so people understand. It's like drug discovery. It's drug development. It is something to do once the drug is already out there? How do you see that? So drugs are, I mean, they arguably are the most important thing and the most disruptive thing when you actually get solutions. So I want people to go back to COVID because when Moderna, and if people haven't heard this, Moderna came out with the vaccine blueprint two days after they got the blueprint or the sequence from China. Once they had the virus details, the vaccine was created two days later, the blueprint. That was before a single

person in the United States was declared dead. So this was before it was even a market event. That's how quickly, and it was all related to artificial intelligence. The stock that day was $20. A year and a half later, it was $500. And everyone remembers Moderna couldn't be stopped. And that was because they took what they had done and said, oh, mRNA technology is going to change the world and we're going to cure everything. That is an S-curve adoption scenario. It will be involved in curing everything eventually, but at the time, it was too fast. So the stock has basically cratered back down. What happened in the last few weeks is Eli Lilly, which had been under pressure for a period of time, mainly because the uncertainty over what they were

going to do with drug prices. Drug prices are really critical for a lot of people in the country and especially voters and inflation. So we want drug prices to go down. So Eli Lilly announced, Number one, they're building a massive AI drug factory, and they announced it with NVIDIA. Number two, for people who don't know, they've had a partnership now for almost two years, if not two years, with Google DeepMind, their lab, which is Isomorphic Labs, and Insilico, this company. Now, Isomorphic Labs is an AI-generated group from DeepMind where they're trying to solve everything. So they are the group that had Alpha Fold 3.

Alpha Fold 3, which came out two years ago, led to Demis Hassabis. Actually, Alpha Fold 3 came out last year. It led to Demis Hassabis from Google DeepMind, the head, one of the leaders of Google, getting the Nobel Prize. And he said in January of this year, and he said it on a 60 Minutes,

which everyone should go watch. By the end of this year, we will have AI drugs going into clinical trials. Now, what this will do is people will start to realize how much is spent on R&D, both time and massive amounts of money, where 90% of every drug never even make it to trial. So the failure rate is very high. So the amount of money wasted on things, what they're doing is saying, no, this is the blueprint like Moderna that's going to get you this.

What Insilico does is they're the engineer that goes through and starts creating what would actually work. And then Eli Lilly is the manufacturer. So this is kind of like this process of going from idea to solve a problem. Oh, okay, let's test it out and see if it gets, get it to clinical trial. So I don't want to make this too long, but this is part of the story. Google DeepMind hired a chief medical officer who's an expert in getting things through clinical trials back in June, Ben Wolfe.

They have talked openly about being close. And there's a bunch of interviews that people at Isomorphic have talked about. Now, they can't say exactly what's going on, but this is related to cancer. That's where their focus has been. Their focus has been on cancer. Eli Lilly announced an upgrade in the Insilico relationship this week. All of this stuff has happened in the last three weeks. And so when a stock goes higher as much as it has, and to give you guys an idea, this

month, when there's panic everywhere, the S&P 1500 Pharma Index is having its second best month since 1999. So for those of you looking for longs right now, I would go spend some time on biotech. The great thing about pharma and biotech, they're like tech. Like if you get a story that you're curing cancer, you start going through it. But the main point is Merck is an 11 PE stock. The mag seven are not cheap. They're spending money. Merck is maybe getting to the point where their expenses will go. So what you've been seeing the last couple of years is a lot of companies that are all of a sudden benefiting, their multiples are going higher in places like Salesforce.com, their multiples are coming down. Chipotle, their multiples are coming down.

I can make the argument that all of the multiple compression names, it's been related to AI disruption. Now you're starting to get the multiple names on the bottom that are starting to do well on this. So I think between commodities, energy, and pharma and financials for next year, those are the places that may not be sexy for retail traders, but I learned with GameStock, they'll trade anything that can make them money. And they should be. Those are the places where I think the river is going to start flowing well. And I just don't agree with Dan Ives. I don't think the tech sector is going to be as easy as it's been in the last two years. Today's episode is brought to you by Figure. Looking for the best way to unlock your crypto's liquidity? My friends

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crypto-backed loan with Figure today. Now, one thing that I think is very fascinating, and maybe I can share with you a framework that I've started to come around to, and it's a combination of talking to lots of different people, but Bitcoin was kind of the sledgehammer to what I would consider boring innovation. So most of the innovation we talked about pre kind of Bitcoin hitting the main stage was, okay, the iPhone came out. It was very innovative. It was disruptive, but it wasn't a true external technology sledgehammer, right? It was more kind of an evolution. Okay, we have a computer, we have an iPod, we're going to just make it a little bit smaller, we're going to add some features to it. There's definitely some sort

of innovation that happens here. But we're taking kind of steps closer and closer to it gets smaller goes in your pocket, you know, etc. Bitcoin was really a thing that was like this external shock to the system, right? It took ideas from the legacy system, but it was as external. You are now seeing this happen much more rapidly i think in technology and true innovation is are these external shocks llms is not a kind of one to two to three you know type evolution this is an external shock to a lot of these companies in pharmaceutical i invested in a friend of mine uh a company called varda at the time it was not necessarily a pharmaceutical company it was very much uh now that we have reusable rockets which blue origin now is the second company in america uh that can

go ahead and do this the cost to get to space has significantly come down what if we can manufacture things in space bring them back to earth to benefit on earth so a lot of people think of space is like let's go outward their thing was let's use space to come back here now they thought about a lot of different things they've ended up one of the key components is pharmaceutical the idea of manufacturing drugs and zero gravity certain things are possible that are not as either cheap or possible here on earth that is an external innovative shock to pharmaceutical development right so there's like the science of like what are the drugs and then how do you actually manufacture i think that you can go through whether it's bitcoin llm something like

etc and you can see that these external shocks they're incredibly hard to create but when they happen yep it spreads like wildfire through an industry and i actually wonder how many people are Bitcoin minded versus people who start to recognize these patterns of, okay, I know a lot of people who are saying, look, Bitcoin, I didn't sell my Bitcoin. I still got my Bitcoin. Net new dollars though, they went to AI. Net new dollars next are going to go to humanoid robots. Net new dollars from that are going to go to, you know, pharmaceutical development. Like they're actually innovation investors, not just Bitcoin investors. And I think that that ability maybe is actually going to become a very core skill that's important kind of for the world that we're going into.

you agree with that yeah i agree and this is actually a an important point for for people to connect one dot with so when we've talked about tesla when we talk about well now pharmaceuticals curing cancer never thought we'd talk about pharmaceuticals on here but i'm here for it i i never did either but look at the chart of eli lilly and just be like well that thing moved fast and that's a big i mean they're a trillion dollars now again i think uh ken langone if i if i understand if i remember correctly his average holding period is 42 years in his portfolio like just goat. Right. And if I remember correctly, he has held Eli Lilly for something like 40 something years and still holds the position today. Yeah. It's that's an, that's an amazing

story. The chart is an amazing chart. The story is an amazing story. You're talking about once you get to curing cancer. Okay. And when I, when I say curing it, it doesn't get rid of it. It becomes something you just have, but it doesn't kill you. And if you go start, and this is what I want everyone to do, just watch the 60-minute, and I say the 60-minute YouTube because Demis Hassabis, for probably a 12-minute clip, he talks about this year beginning to cure all diseases. And it'll take, and he said by 2035, we'll have cured all diseases. Oh, well, that means we won't see it there.

I'm like, that's not the way markets work. Moderna is the example of a company that solved a problem that was really critical at the time and everyone dove into it and it raced. If you get someone that said cancer affects everyone, like everyone, there is not a single person that hasn't had a family member that's gone or a friend who's gone through cancer. So anything related to cancer is a massive change. Now, anyone who's been following the news realizes that all of this stuff has really accelerated since Gen AI. That is the gateway to all of this stuff. So for the last three years, the trade was the infrastructure trade, and it was the Mag7. I'm just saying that that is not

the trade. So do I still think Tesla's going to have a great year next year? Yes, because I think humanoids will be brought forward. Most institutional investors will not buy, oh, great, we're going to cure drugs. How do I invest in that? But when you see their earnings revisions going higher. And this is the thing people have to realize I wrote in CoreWeave. CoreWeave had to lower stuff. Quant strategies look for estimate revisions moving higher. If the cutting expense side and the efficiency thing ends up being the big thing, if small caps do well because of the rate cuts and the fact that people have to remember the one big beautiful bill, the majority of the fiscal impact is going to happen in the first half of the year because we got the midterms.

So they wanted that to happen. We also have rate cuts going on around the globe. And on a two-year lag, we started to cut rates. You're going to start seeing the impact of lower rates that's going to filter in because monetary policy runs with a lag. This is the first half of next year. You've got commodity prices that are ticking higher. Why?

The CapEx. The CapEx is still going to happen. It's just going to be slower than what people thought. So these companies will have to push their earnings out. And that's why when you get into this, this is less about, oh, we're having to push our earnings out. And oh my gosh, those numbers are huge. We have to go buy these. It's a very different market when you get into that side of where people are valuing something there. So your comparison between humanoids, between pharmaceuticals, all of this stuff to me is

going to line up next year. When you look at the market moving forward, Bitcoin is up, let's call it 6% over the last year, 4% year to date. Atrocious performance in Bitcoiners' minds. Atrocious, right? The S&P and NASDAQ, I think it's up 14 and 18% or whatever it is, getting trounced by just major equity indexes. Bitcoin is now trading below the level when Trump took office. there is um a sentiment change that's happening i've talked with um in private a number of what i would consider very hardcore bitcoin believers some of them are saying hey we're going into a bear market some of them are getting a little frustrated and saying maybe there's not as much upside return here as possible maybe kind of like a peter teal you know type of viewpoint on one hand when i hear that stuff and the negative bearish sentiment i think be bullish

do the opposite of what other people, right? You go on X, everyone's bearish. Maybe I should be bullish. At the same time, if everyone who's supposed to be buying the asset is bearish and they're not buying the asset, it kind of reinforces downward pressure on a stock, whether that's Bitcoin, tech stocks, or whatever.

How do you decipher the difference between bearish sentiment being positive versus like, don't try to be different and wrong, you know, just follow the crowd? All right. So this is where, so when I wrote the paper about the IPO price, within the paper, I said, it still may go lower in the interim. And the reason is because of what you said at the beginning of the question, which is there needs to still be more distribution from the original people that bootstrapped this asset. It needs to happen. Part of it needs to be opportunity costs. Part of it needs to be diversification. But every single day, the ETF inflows continue. The treasury company buying continues. There is a handoff on things that didn't exist to what does exist. A16Z put out

their state of the crypto report. I'll be going through about seven to eight of the slides because I think they get into the point that I'm most interested in. So I'm a macro person. I don't care about, I mean, I care what it does each day. But my vision of it is not about what it does this year. It's not even what it does next year. If we're still at 94,000 next year, trust me, the sentiment will be even lower and people will be hysterical.

But I believe the volumes are going to increase. The network effects are going to happen. Caitlin Long is a beloved person in the space because of the fight she's shown. She's reiterated her thing, which I agree with too. Money velocity sucks in the traditional finance world. There's so much money trapped with the few that own it. So it's very similar to Bitcoin, meaning highly concentrated. Well, the trad fiat world is highly concentrated and owned as well.

Most of the assets around the globe are in the top 1% of people. It's actually to some degree worse in terms of the concentration. And a lot of that money doesn't move. it sits in real estate. Tokenization is going to happen. Stable coin volumes are going to happen. AI agents are going to happen. Those three things are the holy trinity of the digital economy taking over the traditional finance world. That's not a guess on my part. That is going to happen. We still have three years left of this administration. We haven't got the Market Structure Act in. So when clarity is in, for everyone who's doubting where it's going,

that's a trader mentality and that's fine. You have to have that mentality at this point because you got to preserve if you're trading. If you're someone who's thinking about where it's going to be five years from now, 10 years from now, like I am 20 years from now, I fundamentally believe what I've said repeatedly on every podcast I go on. I'm interested in the way artificial intelligence is going to change the world. It is disruptive to the wealthy. It is disruptive to everyone who's had a moat around their lives, who's had a moat around their business. What it's good for is the people transacting. I believe in prediction markets. I believe in tokenization connected to prediction markets. All of these things to me are going to happen and they're

going to continue to increase next year. The one thing that didn't happen this year, as long as Dan Ives is right and the stocks that he's following are doing well, people don't need Bitcoin. They don't need that innovation. What drives people into an innovative name like Tesla or Bitcoin, it has to happen when there's not as many opportunities and choices and things that are working that are bigger market caps. Bitcoin has a market cap where history will tell you when you get to this level, you're real. Like you don't have to doubt it anymore. Could we go to 80,000? I guess we could if the stock market falls off. But I don't think the S&P is going to fall off. I think we're at the end of a liquidation of growth stocks and that next year growth will

not be a good factor. Growth has a variety of times where it doesn't work. Bitcoin is heavily, heavily correlated to retail trading. It's heavily correlated in the short term to growth. If I'm right and growth isn't going to work the way that it is, this is not a value trade. This is just if the growth names are not dominating the market, then Bitcoin is going to start to be sexy again when it starts to trade higher. Price drives in the narrative always, as Paul Tudor Jones said, it's something I believe in. The narrative is bad right now because the price is bad. If the price is back up, the narrative will be very good. Today's episode is brought to you by DeFi Development Corp. Global wealth today exceeds $500 trillion, yet crypto still

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BitcoinIRA.com slash Pomp, and you can join 200,000 Americans on their journey to upgrade their retirement. That's Bitcoin IRA.com slash pump to upgrade your retirement today. Is there any credence to people started buying Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies in general? 2020, 2021 was really kind of like the big moment that I would say we transitioned from early adopters to beginning of mass adoption, right? That crowd, if they, let's say we're buying Bitcoin. And they said, I'm pretty risk averse, but I think I need to have this in my portfolio. I'm going to put 2% exposure on. I'm not a crazy zealot Bitcoiner, but also I don't believe the dollar is the best place to have all my wealth. And so this Bitcoin thing seems to have

a place in a portfolio. I'll put 2%. Bitcoin's up 500% since then, over the last five years, of 500 that two percent is now ten percent ish is there any idea of like maybe i just don't need more of it right like like if it's ten percent of my portfolio i never expected it to be ten percent it's just grown so much and i don't want to rebalance because i don't want to sell my bitcoin because rule number one of bitcoins don't sell but a net new dollar going into bitcoin means i'm going to push it higher than my ten percent current allocation like there's something about because it's still almost done so well the hardcore bitcoiners were never going to sell and they want it to become 95% of their portfolio.

But this mass adoption kind of cohort, I don't know if they want Bitcoin to be 50 to 95% of their portfolio. Like there is some number that once it gets hit, it almost feels like they're like, okay, I've got enough of that. Is that something that you think could be playing out too?

Yes, but let me take, let me break Bitcoin down into four quadrants of let's say buyers plus people that have bought. Okay. You have the ideological group. This is, I wrote a paper about the difference between libertarian and democracy with inside Bitcoin. The ideological group didn't want iBit. It didn't want like, it didn't want- Hardcore zealot Bitcoin, or zealot not being a negative term, being a, like, this is the essence of what Bitcoin is. They've defended Bitcoin through- Peter Thiel, all that. So that's quadrant one. And the great thing is they're the ones,

just like with the internet, which again was a libertarian thing, which has turned into a platform thing. They came and they said, the government is wrong and we want to get away from this. Let's do this and let's break their stranglehold and control. Okay. That's one. And I think that's a lot of the selling that's been going on. And again, you get in early. It's a major part of your net worth. You need to diversify. And if you don't believe the ideology anymore, you should be getting out. Number two, the second quadrant, this is the 2020 crowd. This is when I joined. I hear these people speak and I will not name names. They believe- them no no i i actually and the reason i say no i'm gonna say what i don't disagree with and if

they believe in this they can go through it they say that the dollar will get trashed and the government is printing inflation and it's all about qe and that's why i need to be long bitcoin i don't agree with that crowd and the reason is the third quadrant these are people in south America. You know what they're buying Bitcoin? It's the dollar. They want the dollar. The reason they want the dollar is because they don't trust their own government. So this gets back into the Michael Saylor thing of people that are talking about how the dollar is weak and inflation's coming. That is an educated, wealthy game story like that. Hey, I'm wealthy. I have a lot to lose. You're screwing me. I want to buy Bitcoin. That was kind of Michael Saylor's story. But there's

another part that he talks about, which is the people in countries that don't truly trust their government. We don't have the basement in the U.S. the way they do in Brazil, the way it is in Argentina, the way it is in Zimbabwe and other countries where you literally are losing all of your ability to participate in the global environment. So that third quadrant to me is a growing part and it's not going to stop. And they're the ones also the on-chain volume of transactions, remittances, and that. A lot of it is happening in those, and they're going to continue to do it. And if you go through that A16 report, they show it. The final group is the portfolio diversification. And I want to remind everyone about the Rick Edelman story. And don't

forget his argument of you should have up to 40%. The reason was because we're going to extend our lifespan. So let me go back to the pharmaceutical side. How about next year, we start talking about curing cancer and curing all diseases. And people go, so wait, they start really understanding that they weren't joking about living a lot longer. Well, now you need innovation. You need things that are going to grow with you. I'm not saying everyone should put all their money into Bitcoin, but should it be zero, which it is for the majority of people? No. And you've just allowed the financial advisors and you've just allowed the banks to start getting involved. The portfolio diverse vacation crowd, the one that's buying iBit every day, that will continue to grow.

They're buying from the first quadrant, some of the second quadrant. So I believe that's what needs to happen is this has to go from ideology to wealthy people saying, no, I'm I don't believe in the government to people that are doing it for diversification and for actually surviving through government debasement. And I think that's a very powerful story in the long run. And when you add in the tokenization and the things where the wealthy people have these illiquid assets and they're going to need to get a price form, private credit will be trading a lot better.

commercial real estate would be trading a lot better if someone didn't have five potential buyers and actually had 8 billion potential buyers. You have to pick one or two asset classes for, I don't know, through the end of 2026. Where are you think that there's the most mispricing, the most misunderstanding, right? I think some people will look at the things that have been working who are just down and like, oh, it's not over. That's kind of one viewpoint. But also, I think that there's maybe the smartest investors that I really respect. They are, what's the next thing? Where's the next capital rotation going to? What is that for you? So I'm going to reemphasize it because I think you need to sit back and you need to think about

this. So let me go start with the stock market and just say two things. I do believe international stocks are going to outperform US stocks. One of the themes that people should be paying attention to when you go through a year where AI was the dominant theme and we own it. So go back to kind of the internet, go back to the post 2009 period with mobile. This was not a great year for the mag seven. Um, they've underperformed Europe. They've underperformed China. They've underperformed emerging markets. That should be something people should be thinking about what normally when tech is dominating the s p is outperforming nasdaq's outperforming that didn't happen this year um and you can try to go through this like it's not that american exceptionalism is down

i just believe that we are building out and spending an enormous amount of money and rather than call it a bubble uh i believe that this has been if we're building something out which is actually going to democratize it which means the people who get swallowed up by it are the people who are doing the building of it they don't actually monetize it to the degree that they did on the prior thing that is something i believe in and we've talked about it so in that i don't think it's tech stocks i don't think it's the mag 7 with inside equities i think if people sit back and go humanoids and longevity expansion those two things at some point they go from being outside the front mirror driving a car and you're like hey i can see the humanoids now hey i can see life

expansion those are the things you want to invest in when they're just getting on you know a long term drive and i think they're going to enter next year so though it'll be not i still think international stocks within exit equities uh i think bitcoin again because of the token is because of the tokenization rise next year and because of the clarity act i just think with sentiment this bad far worse like s p sentiments nothing compared to where bitcoin is so you said it feels like a crash when it's up five six percent you know for the year i think that'll be the best performing thing so those two things are the areas that i would or three things i would focus my attention All right. I appreciate your time this week. You're always bringing unique insights, pharmaceuticals, all this stuff. This is why I enjoy this conversation so much. I need a favor from everyone who watches this every day. Every Sunday, Jordy puts out an excellent video, different links. I don't know where he finds all the charts. He comes up, he's got all his tabs up. He's like a professor. It's like free content. People would pay tens of thousands, maybe now US colleges will charge hundreds of thousands of dollars to get this level of quality information.

I need you to go on YouTube and just type in Jordy Visser. You're going to see his nice face pop up, his little YouTube channel. Click on it. And there's a big, fat, red subscribe button. I want you to subscribe. And every person who does that, I want you, when you hit the button, to say thank you. It's a thank you to him for spending all his time with us. It's a thank you for him putting out all this great information.

The subscribe button is kind of like a digital tip, a little digital thank you to Jordy. So just type in Jordy Visser on YouTube. Go there. Click subscribe. watch the video if you click subscribe and you don't watch the video it's like showing up to a party saying hi and irish exiting don't do that just stay for a few minutes watch the video you're gonna learn a lot we appreciate you coming every week and uh all of you it'd be a thank you to if you go and do that i appreciate you doing that and to you guys who do it uh i do that video

literally to help people learn and hopefully to give them confidence especially when markets are like this. I promise you this weekend's video, we'll go through the pharmaceutical thing and give you the chance to listen to your own podcast on it. My goal was initially that if I build a relationship with the audience where they're learning from me, AI, trading markets, some technical things that I view, but also I like to be early to things. The pharmaceutical thing is early. It's an early story. It is not talked about. I will go through a lot of charts. the tech story is old now guys it's been three years of chat gpt you got to find a new playbook and i think the new playbook is coming in in life there's some great pairings you know wine and

cheese and you can go through stuff the weekends are for pomp and jordy saturday and sunday right there you go all right thank you guys so much for watching we'll see you guys next weekend thanks