The Pomp Podcast - Is This The Next Trillion Dollar Company? | Asher Genoot

Episode Date: May 13, 2026

Asher Genoot is the CEO of Hut 8, one of the largest bitcoin mining and AI/HPC infrastructure companies in the world. In this conversation, we discuss the transition from bitcoin mining to AI data center development, the economics of $17 billion in contract value, community pushback against data centers, supply chain bottlenecks, and the future of physical intelligence infrastructure.=====================Simple Mining makes Bitcoin mining simple and accessible for everyone. We offer a premium white glove hosting service, helping you maximize the profitability of Bitcoin mining. For more information on Simple Mining or to get started mining Bitcoin, visit https://www.simplemining.io/pomp=====================Award-winning Fountain Life - Energy supercharged. Memory sharper. Life extended. Ready for the best investment you’ll ever make? Schedule a life-changing call at http://fountainlife.com/pompGet $1,000 off the cost of a life-changing membership with Fountain Life when you schedule a call at https:www.http://fountainlife.com/pomp=====================Arch Public is an agentic trading platform that automates the buying and selling of your preferred crypto strategies. Sign up today at https://www.archpublic.com and start your automated trading strategy for free. No catch. No hidden fees. Just smarter trading.=====================0:00 - Intro0:45 - Bitcoin mining to AI: the transition3:09 - Data centers & community pushback8:52 - Co-location & energy campuses 11:42 - Mega sites vs. smaller urban campuses13:08 - Hardware innovation inside the data center17:15 - How Hut 8 lands billion-dollar contracts20:01 - The River Bend financing structure24:19 - Build vs. acquire strategy25:18 - Bottlenecks slowing AI buildout27:36 - What keeps Asher up at night30:40 - American Bitcoin update

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Visit your local Chevrolet dealer today for more details. So at Huday, we deal with less of the volatility of Bitcoin going up and down, and we're focused on building infrastructure, but we're supporting multiple technologies today. rather than just Bitcoin or just AI. We believe that the company will continue to support all of the next generation technologies that we think will change the world. What's going on, guys?

Today, we got a great conversation with Asher Goodnoot. He is the CEO of Hut8, and he is one of the leading operators when it comes to the intersection of Bitcoin mining and AI HPC. In this conversation, he goes through the excruciating detail of what these companies are,

how they operate, how they differentiate, and why investors should consider putting them into their portfolio. This conversation covers a lot, I think you're going to find it very, very valuable. There's lots of information in here that you're not going to find anywhere else. Here's my conversation with Asher. Asher, you guys were one of the biggest Bitcoin miners. You've now converted to

AI HPC. You've got a very unique story, I think, in how you've converted this business. It's now 10 plus billion dollar market cap. Talk a little bit about the transition the industry is going through and why investors are flocking to this AI HPC trade. The demand for AI is really just at the starting point right now. Adoption, I think, is at the very, very early on since you see the companies like Anthropic that have increased their revenue month over month over month, adding over $10 billion of ARR month over month, which is the most insane growth that you've seen companies. I mean, they've just raised that $100 and $300 and almost a trillion dollars and seeing all this news in the market, which is super exciting. I think building infrastructure

to support those technologies in those use cases is selling the picks and shovels to the ecosystem. And for Hudi, our mission is to create an energy infrastructure platform that supports the technologies of tomorrow. And that's building digital infrastructure. And so when we started the business, we supported Bitcoin compute,

and that was a technology that we believed could revolutionize the financial system. And we created the security behind that network for transactions to happen. But as most of our peers in the ecosystem said, you know what, we have these megawatts, we're using them for Bitcoin, let's convert them to AI because we can make more money off of that. We took a very different approach.

We said, we've built this platform and become one of the largest people in the world securitizing the Bitcoin network. Let's use the skill set of finding power, building infrastructure at scale and managing power and build for the AI use case. And so I think very uniquely, the last two deals that we've announced, some with $17 billion in contract value, those are net new projects that we built from the ground up and developed rather than we converted over from existing Bitcoin facilities. We still manage about 700 megawatts of Bitcoin infrastructure, and we spun out that business

to a company called American Bitcoin, which is publicly traded as well. And they're a customer now of HUD-8 infrastructure. So at HUD-8, we deal with less of the volatility of Bitcoin going up and down. and we're focused on building infrastructure, but we're supporting multiple technologies today. Rather than just Bitcoin or just AI, we believe that the company will continue to support all of the next generation technologies that we think will change the world. Now, when you think about building these data centers, you guys are going and finding land, you're powering these things, you're going and striking these business development deals.

One of the things that has happened in society is there's a lot of people who do not want data centers. They're worried about water. They're worried about electricity prices. They're worried about the aesthetics of the data center in their local community. Talk a little bit about this balance between, you know, kind of the everyday American in a local community and their views towards artificial intelligence and data centers. And then the belief that maybe from the, you know, kind of Wall Street crowd, the Silicon Valley crowd of we don't have enough data centers, we need more compute. And so how are you guys navigating this balance? The U.S. needs to build more infrastructure if it wants to be the leader in the technology

revolution around the world. And that's critical. I think about kind of where the U.S. stands today and we have been and can continue to be a leader in the technological revolution and being at the forefront. I think, but right now, even with us saying, let's go build as much infrastructure as possible, we're still competing neck and neck with countries like China who are able to build energy infrastructure, who are able to build data center infrastructure, frankly, faster and cheaper than we are today. And so I think we need a common unity to say we should be behind the infrastructure that supports the growth of these technologies, continue to make sure that our LLM models are at the forefront. We had a head start because we have NVIDIA, which is a US company, being able to

support us with the best generation chips. But as they start building their own chips and as they start competing, infrastructure is going to be the key bottleneck. And you're seeing that today, our infrastructure, data center infrastructure. And so I think there's this general fear of what does AI mean for me as across the U.S. today and whether that fear be around what's going to happen with my job, whether that fear be around what is this infrastructure and all this investments in neighborhood going to do and i think there's a lot of these kind of false fallacies that have like percolated and gotten people scared right so some of them you mentioned one data centers are going to make my energy prices go up that's not true we work with the leading energy utilities across

the country and the reality is every time a data center is built especially today at large scale we come in we pay for what is called a kayak which is we pay for all the infrastructure and system upgrades to be able to transport that energy and that goes to the overall system so all the people who are consuming energy get the benefit from those system upgrades as well and then the energy supply itself we pay and commit to the consumption of that power as well and so in a lot of these utilities and you're seeing more of them start post data about this but energy prices actually come down with data centers coming online because you increase the utilization and you upgrade the infrastructure but like there's some areas where you might have a really bad uh kind of summer

storm and energy prices go up but you have other criteria that are happening and people blend it on data centers right but the real kind of facts have seen the opposite which is energy prices have gone down in a lot of areas where they're structured correctly the second is water usage there's two ways to cool these chips one is the analogy i like to use is if you're walking around disneyland with your family and you're kind of spraying a fan and like misting water and you're basically using the cooling temperature of the cool water to cool down your chips alternatively you have a refrigerator at home and that refrigerator doesn't use active water to cool it down right it's a closed loop system that is able to cool down the chips and so we use that closed loop system where we don't

actually use any water on an ongoing basis other than the restrooms the sinks and things of that nature's like any other office building and we're much smaller consumption than a traditional office building because everything is in that closed loop system historically not everyone did that because one it's more expensive from an infrastructure perspective two is that you have to invest into kind of higher poe so you consume kind of uh more electricity prices and so forth and so those are some of the reasons why historically you've had different types of use cases on the water side but the water issue can be solved where you're not actually using water in the community um and you're using much less water than what people have kind of day to day when they drive

by any office building car wash um and anything of that nature and so i think those are like two big ones the third one is is noise uh and how you design and how you build these data centers if you look at ashford virginia there are literally data centers right next to homes and so these things can be built in a much more quiet manner and lastly we're actually spending good amount of time with this is historically a lot of these things look like kind of large infrastructure warehouse like buildings but i think there's an opportunity to invest a bit more money and make these things look beautiful and have them drive by and feel more like museums than they do um kind of warehouses and so we're thinking about all those things and as we go into new markets

we're kind of talking through those but i think as a nation we've got to figure out how to get people excited that we could be at the leading forefront of this technology rather than nervous and scared. Because if that is really what ends up really driving our decisions in this country, I think it's going to hinder us from leading in this AI revolution and other countries like China to be able to surpass us. And that's why I think the sense of coming together in this nationalist pride of let's build the infrastructure that supports this compute is critically important, because if it doesn't get built in the US, it will get built elsewhere. And we don't want that compute lying in other countries. Now, I'm going to throw out a couple of things that I've heard

various players doing and i want you to react to agree disagree you know and why uh the first is i've heard some people pitch well we should do co-location we should do some like high performance manufacturing and co-locate it with data centers that changes the economics of uh the actual site and it allows us not only to get the compute online but then it also allows us to do high performance manufacturing how do you guys think about that i don't really fully follow uh it's of connecting those two i think energy campuses are going to be a bigger and bigger thing which is you bring generation so you not only bring the load in the consumption you actually bring net new generation as well and there might be other use cases right because like we have a 500 megawatt

data center but it the it load is 352 and the rest is kind of the cooling infrastructure that doesn't always get used and so you can have kind of co-located infrastructure that's able to consume some some of that power that's not being used so i think there's a lot of creativity of how to build these energy campuses but it depends on what do these loads need what are the different requirements and how do you create kind of these utilized systems i think the next phase historically for data centers was we go we ask the utility hey can we get power obviously we don't have much power and so we need to go build new power and so now a lot of uh infrastructure providers are thinking about how do we bring power with us so we bring power and we bring load and then we can

help add capacity into the market while consuming as well and i think you'll see a lot more of that now that co-location or like the other off takes of the energy what would they be doing is it other types of data consumption or is there something else so as we think about it from a hud a perspective today we have two large use cases right we have use cases for asic that kind of power the bitcoin network and security and we're also big believers if bitcoin is going to be a currency around the world that people trust we want that compute or a large portion of that compute to be in the us rather than in countries that um whether it be kind of iran russia ukraine china like we we want it to be in countries um that are more on in the west and so maintaining

compute in the us we think is kind of critical to national security separately is from an ai compute perspective so these two loads are very different ai compute is more bursty more based on workloads and kind of a traditional data center that they consume and it's less price sensitive where Bitcoin you trade around price volatility. And so these are interesting loads that can actually work together because one doesn't have to be online all the time and one does. And so other use cases we're seeing in the US today, you see advanced manufacturing, you see these kind of onshoring of these chip manufacturing companies, fab manufacturing companies that are all large scale energy campuses in the hundreds of megawatts,

if not gigawatts as well. And you'll see more of that as we step into the world of robotics and advanced manufacturing. Now, another thing I've heard is there's obviously the mega sites, you know, uh, hundreds of, um, megawatts, but then I've also seen people talk about, well, actually closer to urban areas, we're going to need 50 to a hundred megawatt sites. How do you think through the mega sites versus maybe the smaller sites that are closer to the density? I'll talk about it from a power than kind of a latency perspective. Historically, there was this belief that like, you could only do training farther out and you have to be much closer to population density to have better latency to run workloads.

If folks use ChatGPT or use Clon or use Grok, you realize that sometimes you ask it a question and it goes and it thinks for some time and then comes back. So that really quick latency is less relevant compared to a world where you're browsing your emails or social media or whatever it may be. And so we've seen that these large scale campuses, actually the ability to build kind of these inference loads, not just in population dense areas and first kind of tier markets is a reality today. At the same time, you have a power constraint, which is how much power at scale can you get? And that's becoming harder and harder. And so I think you're going to see a lot more

smaller campuses being deployed because it's easier to be able to say, all right, let's consume five, 15, 50 megawatts rather than go build a thousand megawatt campus. And so you'll see both And you'll see people building infrastructure across both sets. Now, another thing that I think people are trying to figure out is at the same time, we're trying to get power. We're trying to get the data centers built. And there's a bunch of kind of constraints or obstacles in just those two things alone. Also, there's a lot of movement and like what is going inside the data center?

The hardware itself is being rapidly innovated on. And these large language models are now putting a lot of money and they're trying to figure out like who can get the advantage on the actual metal itself. And so are you guys participating in that or you are just trying to deliver, you know, powered shells or just the power itself and leave that for somebody else? We are building full turnkey solutions. So we're not just building the powered shell, we're building everything that goes inside the data center as well.

As we think about the long term kind of competitive edge in the data center market, what matters most is your cost per token, which is like your unit of compute and your cost per token on a fully depreciated and amortized basis. And so that means you don't really care if the costs are in CapEx or in OpEx. You care about the all-in costs of that infrastructure. And the three pieces that really drive those costs are, one, the cost of energy, two, the cost of the data center, and three, the cost of the chips and the technology that orchestration runs it all to run it the most efficiently to get the most compute out of that infrastructure

stack. And so at HUD-A, we're proud because we're not just a data center business. We've owned power plants in our history. We own four power plants. We have behind-the-meter assets, front-of-the-meter assets. And so I think understanding that full value chain. On the compute side, we have another company called HighRise.ai that we incubated. And that's like a neocloud business led to a core weave.

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Your number one job is to educate yourself and Fountain wants to help educate you. Now, you guys are striking very large deals. Last one was over $9 billion of revenue. I think that's part of that contract. What's that process like? So you guys know, okay, we got the land, we're going to go power this thing, but we need to have a partner. We need to have somebody who's actually going to pay us for this. Do you just call up a bunch of companies and say, hey, I got land, I got power, let's have a conversation. Just walk through maybe how do you get in touch with these people and what are those conversations like right now?

We've built really deep relationships with some of the largest consumers of computer in the world. That's some of the largest investment-grade hyperscalers. That's the AI labs like the Anthropix, OpenAI, Zexys. That's also the fast-growing companies that are AI companies that are growing as well and creating use cases across the board that are consuming hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars of compute. And so you have this massively growing market, and then enterprises slowly starting to percolate right now as well.

And so for us, we're excited because we've approached these relationships as partnerships, And the way that we've approached it is not, we have this piece of inventory, do you want it or not? But what is your long-term growth map? And can we be infrastructure partners to you all? And that's how we've really approached and been building our deals that come together. And that's really kind of the mindset that we're taking as we're continuing to grow and scale. Now, $9 billion, I think there's a lot of companies who would love to sign a deal like that. How do you know the numbers are right? So much is changing in terms of some of these or 10 plus year contracts. And I think one of the questions that investors have of the hyperscalers

in particular is like, are they going to get a return on their investment? You guys are a little bit different because you're basically signing up it as revenue, but how do you protect yourself? Or what are some of the things that if you're an investor looking at a company like HUD-8 or other that people should be looking for to know, hey, this contract is good. It's high quality. They're likely to get paid on it. So today, if you look at the two deals that we've announced, They're 15 year contracts, both of them. Both of them are investment grade counterparties that back the payments of those obligations during the 15 years. And so you have basically the most valuable multi-trillion dollar companies in the world supporting the cash flows of these. And those are diversified businesses that have a variety of different revenue streams. And so you have the investment grade kind of counterparty standing behind it. It's not just a startup that is using the compute.

It's a take or pay kind of triple net lease where they're obligated to pay those payments every single month, regardless of if they want to use it or not, like they are committing to that infrastructure stack. And we have a commitment and belief in them that they'll continue to grow and continue to scale. And so in total between those two over the duration of those contracts, it's almost $17 billion in total contract value between the two projects, but stabilized contract value with some of the most creditworthy companies in the world backing them. Now, you have this Riverbend

project. It's one of the two big ones that you guys have. There's some unique or innovative financing that you've put around this project. Can you talk about what is the financing and how it's structured, but why is this unique and no one's done it before? So most of the financing that we see in the market in the data center space is kind of short-term construction like bridge financing. So whether that be two to five-year, 10 years, meaning you get the money, it's a little bit more expensive, but you go and you construct and build a data center. And then once the data center is stabilized, then you go and you refinance that project and you get a little bit of a cheaper cost of capital because you don't take the risk of construction and you

refinance it for the duration of the project. What was interesting is from a credit perspective, So we had S&P and Fitch kind of rate our project. Usually you get kind of like a sub-investment grade rating during construction because the construction risk. And then once you finish the construction, depending on who your tenant is and who your offtake is, then if it's an investment grade counterparty, then you'll get an investment grade credit after commercialization. What was unique is because of how we de-risk execution of the project and delivery, our project was actually investment grade day one. and that allowed us to be able to go and raise capital from the investment grade markets day one instead of from the high yield markets or for the project finance uh uh kind of bank markets and so that'll the investment grade markets gave us duration so instead of doing a two to five year

financing because i think the risk you face there is in two to five years you're you have all these data centers being built today that are all going to need to be refinanced and so you'll have maybe a hundred plus billion dollars of infrastructure that needs to be refinanced at that time and so What is going to be the appetite to refinance in that moment? What is going to be the overall sentiment in the market? I think that's a risk that we really wanted to take away in the first project when we announced Riverbend. Because of the investment-grade status, we felt like we could take away that risk. What we ended up doing was we're one of the first investment-grade construction-phase data center projects in the market ever. We were taking a bit of a risk when

we did it because it was a first of its kind. We sized the capital we raised to over 16 and a half years. So instead of two to five, it basically covers a construction period plus the full 15 year lease. And the full debt gets paid down via the cash flows of the project, rather than via a refinancing that you expect to have. So what we felt like is for HUD-8, it fully de-risked any refinancing risk. And we've already de-risked so much of the project, it took the financing piece out of it as well. And for investors, they didn't have to take the bet that we were going to able to refinance us to pay them back we had the cash flows that are backed by investment counterparts to be able to do so and so it was led by jp morgan uh goldman sachs and morgan

sandley and we had a phenomenal outcome really proud and had some of the most institutional some of those blue chip names in the market so we raised over 3.2 billion dollars and we had 10 billion dollars plus of uh demand across the book from the most well-known institutions around the world how many of these can you do a year right so you guys have two major ones you have to have the bitcoin mining you've got some other projects that are underway but is this like one mega project per year is the pace at which you think you can go can you do four or five of them so we're doing two already um and we're looking at expansion on those campuses as well but as a company the way that we're really building is if you think about like some of the most successful kind of hedge

funds they have this pod model right where you have pods that go and run different initiatives And that's really kind of how we built our business. We have these principles that are part of a task force, and they go and they build and run a project. And so for us, and then we have partners that can scale with us. The reason we chose Jacobs and Virta from an EPCM, which is engineering, construction management, to supply chain is because these companies are some of the biggest companies in the ecosystem. Jacobs has 40,000 employees worldwide for it is a hundred plus billion dollar company. And so they can grow with our scale and our demand as well. And then from a financing perspective, who has a stronger balance sheet than JP Morgan, Golden Sasks, and Morgan Stanley. And so we're really proud of the partners we brought together that as we scale, they can scale with us and support our growth as well.

As the CEO of Hutt, how do you think about building stuff yourself versus acquiring other companies or other properties and sites? Is there a world where you'll do both? Or are you guys pretty focused on just development? We're really proud of our ability to develop. We think that we take a first principles approach towards how we develop. How do we develop more efficiently? How do we develop at a more efficient cost? How do we develop at a higher quality? We're really proud of what we build. At the same time, the market ebbs and flows. Sometimes people are really excited. Things are really expensive. Sometimes things are cheap. I think as you move forward in the next couple

years execution is going to be key and so there might be opportunities where we can buy opportunities assets where they say you know what i need an execution partner to come into this project with us and that might be an earlier stage project or i want some type of liquidity and that might be a later stage project and so we have a corporate development mna team that looks at opportunities all day but we also our core kind of growth engine is our development growth engine because that's where we're going to get the best yield out of the time we spend all right so people are very convinced we need more data centers we need more compute what are the bottlenecks like energy is a a bottleneck are there critical minerals or other things that you look at you're like these are the

things that are slowing us down right now so if you think about the kind of the full chain i would say right now it's energy capacity at scale um and so that's generation of energy capacity that's transmission capacity if you're pulling it from the grid and so that's from like a power infrastructure perspective then when you go up the chain to the data center perspective it's long lead time supply items so that's breakers transformers switch gears and you're seeing some things that the government is doing and calling these kind of national security assets and bring manufacturing and invest into manufacturing and reshoring that. And the third is the chips, right? You're seeing all these memory companies skyrocket in terms of

their share price, like SanDisk and SK and some of these large memory companies, because it's not just the GPU itself. It's all the components that go into that infrastructure stack on the chip side that support that no matter how big or small. So I think across the whole chain, the long lead time item or the bottom, like ebbs and flows, depending on where we are in the market. I think today people need more infrastructure quick and they need more power capacity in the long term as well. Now, are there things that you guys are doing to try to fix some of those supply chain stuff or because the way you're developing and you've got these partners, you're kind of

just susceptible to whatever the lead times are? No, we were definitely very, very cognizant and deep into the supply chain. we think about how much does it cost to produce every single piece of equipment that we buy from someone else? And what are the raw inputs? And what are the lead times? What does the time to build look like? And that's how we drive kind of our ability to be able to deliver projects in a super efficient manner. When we announced the partnerships with Jacob and Verge, we had almost every other kind of manufacturer and partner reach out to us and say, can we join the program? Can we be a part of it as well? And so overall, we're very, very deep into the supply chain. That's

how we think we can drive efficiencies innovation and right now we don't just buy equipment or hire jigs and first do things we are alongside them every single day designing the infrastructure designing the equipment the modulars that we put together and driving a lot of that innovation alongside what are the things that keep you up at night like what are you worried about i think when i'm i would say as a ceo of hot eight and i'll go kind of more broadly as a CEO of HUD-8 is, as we continue to scale and build, how do we keep what makes us unique in the culture that we've built? And how do we scale effectively? And I've always shared this is we care about scaling, but scaling with credibility and being able to execute on everything that we

say we're willing to do, rather than trying to move too fast or move too slow. So finding that right balance. And for HUD-8, the vision we have long-term is there's this huge opportunity of physical intelligence. I think if you look back in the 90s, you had these companies that said, we're going to build internet companies. And today, you fast forward 20, 30 years, you have Microsoft, Amazon, Meta, Alphabet. And all of these are the most valuable companies in the world. But each of them have actually different businesses from social media to search to e-commerce and so on. But at their core, they learn how to build businesses in an internet era. And the opportunity that we believe exists today that allows us to potentially become one of those multi-trillion dollar companies in 10, 20 years from today is physical intelligence.

How do you use technology and redefine how you build in the physical world? And that's what we're most excited by in the long term. We're building this data center infrastructure, these critical assets. But how do we use the technologies that we're empowering to reinvent our businesses ourselves? And so as we look forward kind of five years and 10 years, data centers shouldn't take six months to build with all of our engineers, etc. They should be the ones driving these AI native solutions to be able to design these in days, not months. In addition to that, as we think about building, how do we make sure that we're able to augment kind of the talent that we have to build alongside robotics and infrastructure as well to build more efficiently? I think the beauty about AI is it's going to free people's times up to be more creative, to be able to innovate more.

And you're going to see a whole new kind of industry being born out of creativity because I think the human mind is a beautiful thing. And rather than focusing it on kind of monotonous tasks, if those can be taken over by AI, how do we have that human mind focus on innovation, focus on pushing the world forward? And I think that's what we're excited by at HUD-8 long-term. And I think what keeps me up at night is kind of messing that opportunity up. I think we have a moment in time where HUD-8 is in this perfect moment. We're big enough as a company where we can raise tens of billions of dollars to support these large infrastructure projects. But we're small enough where we have this mindset of a high-growth startup and a fast-growing

business that wants to win and wants to take over the world. And we can rethink and reframe every single thing that we do. And so we're really grateful and fortunate to be where we are today. And we want to be able to really build out what the potential of this business can be. Talk for a second about American Bitcoin. You guys spun it out. I think people are very interested in the Bitcoin mining still as well. What's the latest on that business?

How do you think about it? It's great. We went public less than a year ago. We have over 7,000 Bitcoin from zero when we spun it out. Obviously, Hadeed has its own Bitcoin stack as well. But the business has been doing well. through the last three quarters, regardless of Bitcoin price, our margin has been over 50%, which is amazing. And that's the beauty, because even if Bitcoin price comes down,

other people that are less efficient, stop mining and stop using the compute. And that therefore, the difficulty comes down. And so our net margins actually remain the same, even with the volatility of Bitcoin, which is awesome. And so the business were super proud of the team, what they continue to do, what they continue to build. They just brought a site on last quarter. And I think what's unique around American Bitcoin is because everyone is moving to AI, it's actually becoming easier to use that same compute to mine more Bitcoin. And so we think long term kind of the security and the integrity of the Bitcoin ecosystem is critically important.

And we're one of the last remaining large scale operators that are providing that in North America. And we're really proud to do that. And that business is going well. The foundation is building. Obviously, there's stock price volatility, but that's kind of more macro that we can't really control. what we can control is the fundamentals of the business. And what I've always told the team,

I was like, look, when I took over the CEO's HUD-8, our stock price was around $6. I mean, you remember this. You were one of the early folks that said, hey, people should take a look at HUD-8, right? And we fast forward two years, we were appreciated by over 1000%. And I told the team, I was like, what mattered most is not focusing on what happens on the stock price on a day-to-day basis. If you build an amazing underlying business, the rest will follow. Makes sense to me. Thank you very much for taking the time to do this and we'll do it again soon. Thanks for having me on.