The Pomp Podcast - Jake Paul's Business Partner on Bitcoin, AI & the Next Trillion-Dollar Trade | Geoff Woo

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

Geoff Woo is the co-founder and managing partner of Anti Fund and a co-founder of Ketone-IQ and Archive. In this conversation, we break down choke points and information asymmetry — how smart money hunts for bottlenecks in AI, semiconductors, tungsten, and power. We also cover defense tech, humanoid robots, biohacking, Trump's aura in the Oval Office, and where bitcoin fits into Geoff's portfolio after 13 years of holding.======================Need liquidity without selling your crypto? Take out a Figure Crypto-Backed Loan, allowing you to borrow against your BTC, ETH, or SOL with 12-month terms, 8.91% interest rates, and no prepayment penalties. Or check out Democratized Prime (https://figuremarkets.co/pomp) and earn ~9% APY on real world assets, paid hourly. Unlock your crypto’s potential today at Figure! https://figuremarkets.co/pomp Figure Lending LLC dba Figure (NMLS 1717824). Loans subject to approval. Crypto collateral may be liquidated. Terms apply - see full disclosures at figure.com/disclosures/======================This episode is brought to you by mogul ( https://www.mogul.club/pomp ). Deloitte estimates that $4 trillion of real estate will move onto the blockchain over the next decade. Through tokenized residential real estate, mogul gives investors access to professionally managed properties with targeted yields, monthly rent payouts, and potential tax benefits — all without the headaches of being a landlord. Learn more and claim a special offer at https://www.mogul.club/pomp See important disclosures at disclaimer.mogul.club.======================Arch Public is an agentic trading platform that automates the buying and selling of your preferred crypto strategies. Sign up today at https://www.archpublic.com and start your automated trading strategy for free. No catch. No hidden fees. Just smarter trading.======================0:00 - Intro1:00 - Why VCs are hunting for choke points in every industry4:45 - Can OpenAI & Anthropic crush every AI startup?13:40 - How Geoff uses AI daily & the tungsten choke point17:43 - Investing across public & private markets25:48 - The memory trade, CapEx & the power/fusion bet33:07 - How top investors like Peter Thiel play every trend at once35:03 - Inside Anti Fund's defense thesis39:50 - AI, robots & the ethics of force45:15 - The Waymo & teenagers story52:18 - Facial recognition & the end of privacy54:44 - Neuralink vs ultrasound brain-computer interfaces57:05 - Biohacking, sleep & the future of longevity1:06:33 - Gambling, hustle culture & internet fame1:22:20 - Geoff's honest take on bitcoin1:26:19 - Where to find Anti Fund

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Wayfair, every style, every home. And then it was also very interesting, I had a dinner with Sam Altman at OpenAI, and he just mentioned that he came back from Korea, he bought like 40% of the world's supply of memory. And I was like... Like the memory trade, the memory trade is gonna be real. The memory trade that now everyone's seeing,

like people knew about it like a year ago, right? And a lot of people made a lot of money doing that trade. Bang, bang. What's going on, guys? We've got a great conversation with Jeff Wu. He's the managing partner at Anti-Fund, and he's the co-founder of Keytone IQ and Archive. In this conversation, we talk about choke points

and information asymmetry. Jeff has built an incredible portfolio of investments, and he unpacks exactly how he does it. We go through a number of different industries, different companies, and different strategies, how people are making so much money right now, and why this huge acceleration of capital and information in the digital age, what you can do at home in order to better understand how to allocate your

capital, how to find opportunities, and what technologies are going to end up being the winners and what technologies may end up being the losers. There's a lot of great information in here. And if you listen closely, I think you'll pick up a ton of alpha. So here's my latest conversation with Jeff Wu. All right, Jeff, it seems like the venture capital and tech community is just assaulting the market. And they're basically just looking like a heat seeking missile for where the choke points and then how do we solve that? And we're seeing this in power generation around ai we're seeing this in defense like it's just every single industry it feels like people have identified find the choke point and destroy the uh the choke point

where do you think that this is gonna be most valuable like is it just all ai stuff or is this happening elsewhere um i mean i wouldn't even say it's just like tech people in general i think tech people index with like the highest iq people but i think just the smartest people in the world are playing in this game where it's pretty clear that if we buy and believe that we're going to be AGI future, what are the downstream impacts of that, right?

So like, obviously people are bidding up OpenAI Anthropic and then you go down to NVIDIA and semiconductor chips. And I think it's increasingly valuable and clear that you go down to power, you go down to rare earth minerals. And I think it's like a super fun time

to be in the market because I think that you can either be in the camp that like AGI is going to replace all our jobs there's nothing for people to do or it's like hey it's like it's super exciting to like play this chess match with the rest of the economy um i think the information is more available than ever right like podcasts like yours like you're literally getting the smartest people in the world telling their playbooks and their roadmaps and their prognostication of what the future looks

like take that and maybe trade on that or just like do the mosaic theory talk to all the smart people in the world doing all the interesting things on robotics mining stuff doing fusion research, making robotics actually happen, and just build up a bottoms up universe of what is a choke point, what is underpriced. I feel like half the world is just pessimistic and likes to hate, right? And I think another half of the world is very optimistic, and you want to participate in the game. And I think that expresses politically, I think that expresses socially, I think this expresses culturally. But I think we each as individuals have a choice, What kind of person do you want to be? Do you want to be a biased optimist person or a biased, short, skeptical person? I think you can make money both sides. You just got to be really smart and knowing what game and what biases that you have.

In a world where one option is AGI takes everyone's job and we have nothing to do, or hey, this is actually going to accelerate the world and there's going to be more to do than ever, which bucket are you in? i think all the ai people don't want to talk about the deletion of jobs and i think like it's probably like the politically safe and culturally safe way to put it because i think uh this is the way i'll put it i i don't the future is not determined um i think it depends on the zeitgeist of the people are ourselves like yes i think there is a universe where if everyone one wants to be lazy we can just netflix and chill and watch sports and have ai and robots do all the work for us um and i think a lot of people would just rather just choose to do that i think there are just some people that just choose to be lazy um but i think i know like for like yourself like

myself i know a lot of smart hungry people that just like making stuff like building stuff so i think there will be a lot even more leverage and opportunity for those who choose to work hard because your ability to make a lot of progress faster is better than ever. So I think you can choose your own game. You can be pessimistic and be like, hey, whatever I do doesn't matter because OpenAI is going to smash me. And you can live like that. And I think your universe will create the conditions in which like,

hey, I can't do a startup because OpenAI and Anthropix are going to kill me. I can't invest because their smart investors are going to take all the alpha from me. And then you just get depressed. Sure. And then you just do drugs or something. Let's talk about like an open AI and their ability to smash people. I know you guys are investors at Antifund. And for those that don't know, Antifund is you, Jake Paul, Logan Paul, where you guys have done a great job putting together a portfolio that's really going after a lot of the choke points, right?

Yes. But open AI, they have a very generalized approach and general purpose models. And I think they've really said, hey, how do we use a general purpose model and go into a lot of these different verticals? The other bet would be like specialized workflows and, you know, very specific kind of application that it doesn't want to compete with open AI in the generalized manner. It's just saying, I want to dominate a very, very kind of small niche area, but we think it's big enough to build a big business. How do you see those two strategies playing out? Like, can the big anthropics open AIs compete in specialized workflows? Or is it going to really bifurcate like what the addressable market is for the general purpose models versus, you know, these other areas?

I'll just say what's more publicly known on the roadmap. I think the foundational labs are going to verticalize and do application layer stuff. And I think there's just like an open question around like where does the value accrue, right? Do you just buy NVIDIA and SK Hynix because like GPUs and memories where all the profits are, which is like currently where all the free cash flow is? Or is it the model layer and you have like all this competition from Chinese open source? Or is it the application layer, right? Like the legal tech, the medical tech, you know, finance tech, right? Like, I know you have a, you know, Sylvia that's, you know, verticalizing AI on the financial wealth management side. I think that the harness and the context and the applications, you already see open AI and anthropic hiring, like, PMs and teams, like, prosecuting against that. So, I think it'll, I could see a world where, like, there will be, like, an OAI, anthropic, like, bio drug discovery subsidiary or spin out. There are people building like finance tools. I mean, I think if you were like Sam or you're Dari, you're probably just looking at what is the largest software TAMs and just go down a list and be like, can we do it better? These guys are using our models anyways. Can we have better continuous learning, reinforcement learning loops?

Can we get better data than the startups? They're probably like, yeah, why the hell not? Like we can recruit better, have more resources. um so i think there is a universe where the big boys control like 80 of the most useful applications and they'll let some startups play on the platform for like 20 of the applications um but i think i i believe in just like you know focus um so i think probably like the stable equilibrium is like like the foundation labs will own like half the applications and then the platform will have like the ecosystem will have the other half of applications

Mm-hmm. It's interesting to me because they started to launch some of these applications and stuff, right? But I do think that there are the companies that are taking the different method, the specialized workflows. I think that their argument, and I would make this argument about Sylvia, is there's a lot of stuff around memory. There's a lot of stuff around context. There's a lot of fine-tuning. There's a lot of multi-agent orchestration, right? All that kind of stuff. that if you're going to go do that vertical by vertical, if you have one team, it's very unlikely you're going to be good at doing that across all these different things. What I think you're talking about is them saying, well, hold on, actually, you know, I don't know, at Sylvia, we've got, you know, less than 12 people, 13 people that work at the company. Why couldn't somebody just go and say, I want to go into healthcare or I want to go into, you know, finance or whatever the vertical is, go put together a team of 10 people and

say, use this model that we've built, but actually customize and personalize it to a specific industry and take a, almost like a specialized workflow approach inside of a general model, you know, access to something. Yeah. I think that's what they're doing. So I think that's also a question for young entrepreneurs picking markets. I think you have to have an unfair distribution advantage, right? Like I think, for example, I think even using Sylvia as the use case, right? Like you're a financial expert. You're like a guru in this space. You have a big following. So I think you have a lot of credibility to say that, Hey, my personal insights of data the network that i have is being baked into so if that's beyond

just your general clod or you know five six model right um so i think you have a distribution advantage that like a generic open ai or anthropic will have to like and we see that by the way yeah i think that we we see definitely that advantage the other thing that i think is really interesting is um and i talked to our team about a lot obviously there's engineers that are building this stuff right and when it comes to just personal finance as an example if you're an engineer building a personal finance tool, you immediately go to like, what is engineering possible, right? So like, oh, I can connect through Plaid. One of the things I keep telling them, you know, is like, hey, look, that's only half of someone's portfolio. Usually,

they have private investments, real estate, cars, you know, collectibles, what all this stuff, you can't really do something with some entire financial picture, if you only have half the assets. And so you have to have manual uploads and like things that break the engineering kind of framework because you're used to like plaid connections and you're like no no that's good but there's this other piece and you look in health care like there's a lot of this stuff where it's almost like a specialized knowledge or specialized experience and that's where i think you see the big model companies like they're hiring investment bankers and like you know the people with that knowledge exactly so you gotta race like basically open an anthropic or

gemini of like can you accrue so much proprietary data that you get the flywheel to escape velocity before the big boys do it. And I think that's probably just always a challenge in every single startup. So I think it's a normal challenge, but exactly. I think you have that initial loop and flywheel and it's like, but the big guys also know that like, you know, they're spending

literally billions of dollars on data now. It's crazy. I was just going to say, I'm an investor in Micro One and I'm also an investor in a company called Sunset and they go help companies shut down. But now what they've realized is, well, there's this like intangible asset that no one really realized before,

which is like all the data of how the company used to operate. Right. And so they're now able to sell this stuff, right? I don't know how big the like human data training, you know, market's going to be.

Trillion, maybe more. Like it just seems like there's insatiable demand from these model companies to buy all kinds of data sets that are coming out of, you know, these like data resellers. Yeah.

I mean, what I hear is that like all of the internet is like 30 trillion tokens. Okay. Right. So, but what I'm hearing is that like the big OAI, big anthropic models, they have on the order of 200 trillion data for their pre-training. So, it's like, and I think it's like just an interesting question, like what, like, okay, you can scan every single book, like is more video and physics data, right? Like they're just, so, and I think people are, they're just spending like 2000 to $10,000

a task and for like agent traces or like labeling like a graph or like just like arbitrary, like humans are pretty good at this, but like there's no just big corpus of this data sitting there. So yeah, I mean, budgets for these labs is like literally in the billions. And yeah, I think it would be interesting, like, oh yeah, there's, will there be more synthetic data like that's what i mean we've done some uh fine tuning and stuff like that and it's interesting because actually in a weird way if you're a big model lab and you've got tons of money you tend to sometimes just throw money at the problem right right whereas if you're somebody

like a sylvia you don't have as much money you don't have as much access to compute and so you have to get very creative it's like the constraint should breed innovation if you do it right and so synthetic data was something we did very early on and it wasn't because we were like oh we're so smart it was like dude we have no other choice pay like a thousand dollars an hour for like this is crazy like they're showing up and they're like finding you know a financial advisor an investment banker and they're like oh cool you make you know two hundred dollars an hour we'll just pay you 400 and the guy's like well i'm quitting goldman sachs right i'm just gonna go do this um but but the other thing that so micro one i spent some time with ali there and one of

the things he said that was really interesting to me is he's like it's not just the data it's also sometimes the intention around the data so one of the things that uh these human data companies are doing is um let's say you're a lawyer and you're redlining a document what they have is on the side when you do the red line like that's valuable but then explaining why you're doing yes right and so then it like you're almost you need the human to help train the model because you can't just go get a bunch of red line documents and feed it like yeah you get some value but that intent data almost has to be specifically created for model training yeah and that to me when i just heard that i was like oh this is gonna be a massive industry over time and it makes sense

because it's like you're just trying we like that is what human education is like you kind of express the intent of an action and you try to just have babies figure that out i don't know we're birthing some sort of like merge super intelligence right like all all of the best of humanity is just teaching like our best know-how to this machine god thing it's crazy well how do you use it on a day-to-day basis like i see you tweeting about a lot of everything from like the bots to all the stuff like what are the things that you found in your day-to-day life where you're like this is incredibly valuable um i think i so i think there's like a few things one is just automating as much rote task as possible um i think for all of our lives i think

there's just probably like half the stuff that you do every day that's really awesome half the stuff you just is bullshit just try to automate all the bs away um but i think that's like that's easy stuff i think a lot of what i use like fable and just the most frontier models are just like expressing um how to best express investor or like intuition or sentiment um we're talking about choke points um you know one thing i've been thinking a little bit more about is just like tungsten so it's a heavy metal um i guess traditionally it's been using like armor because like one of the most densest metals high melting point but it's actually very interesting um a lot of the high-end semiconductors, like all these GPU chips, they melt. There's thermal risk if you're

just running these super, super high. So of course, people talk a lot about copper, but you need tungsten nodes to actually not melt these high-end chips. So it's pretty interesting to see that China has the highest purity concentrated tungsten. They're trying to shut down exports of that because they know that's a choke point and then okay like we might need this for more memory more dram more uh more more gpus and then it's also very interesting that if you're thinking about like fission reactors or fusion reactors again super high temperature to like make fusion work a lot of that stuff is also tungsten based so if you just imagine like five years out of fusion really happens maybe we just need a lot more tungsten in the world right so

It's fascinating, though, because you're essentially, like, this is a good example. You have to understand public markets, private markets, technology trends, commodities, supply chain, geopolitics of, like, what is China doing with their supply chain? Then there's, like, a regulatory component. It is really stretching people who are, like, on the playing field to say, can you operate in a chaotic, dynamic environment to make money? Yes. And I think that's where I'm having fun. And I think if people really want to be successful and work hard, then you can have really a lot of fun. Because I think I cannot do all this research by hand and just reading like commodity reports and export like trails from like, like import expert logs, right? But you can have AI just start pulling and just again, how do you how do you try to back or counter some intuitions? So I found that to be very, very helpful, right? Like, okay, and I think you need to have, like, some contract of, like, what the prompts are, what are, like, how to even just, like, get or extract the right data from these models. But I think that's a very good example, right? Like, to your point, like, we touched a number of different paradigms, and then how do you make an investment decision?

Like, I don't think these models are really good at trading, right? They're not, like, ingesting, like, day-to-day, like, market book orders and just, I'm not sure I'll compete, like, Rentech or D.E. Shah or jump trading on this. But I think where I might have alpha is I have better access to the best private entrepreneurs who are building robots, building data collectors, building the next generation of chips. What do they see as the choke points over the next two years, five years that isn't expressed in the public market yet? Or I think like a lot of the public market, I think, again, I think half the world always likes to be skeptical and like short all this stuff. And that's the beauty of markets. It's like you go one way, I go the other way. Let the smart person win the bucks.

It's fine. You know, what's interesting is a couple of years ago, many of our friends who have hedge funds or work at hedge funds, they all became these like crossover investors. And I'm convinced that they didn't do it to make money. They did it for the access to the information to then be able to use it in the public market. But if you understood what was happening in the private market, it was a great kind of proxy for what was going to happen in the public market. And a lot of times the private market was actually leading because they would see certain things. and there was just a freer flow of information, right? All this stuff rather than every quarter, all this stuff.

So that's one. But then two is like, in a weird way, as they came into the private market, I think a lot of people who were living in the private market, we were like, hey, don't encroach on our game here. But now the world demands everyone to kind of be like, I'll call it like a macro investor, right?

A macro investor very much thinks about the relationship between, okay, if interest rates happen here, if this fiscal policy decision happens, How does it affect this other asset that may be sensitive or not sensitive to these things? It is kind of a three-dimensional game, and that's why it's one, very hard, but two, it's intellectually stimulating for a lot of people to go think about the macro stuff. It's a different type of macro, but it is still trying to play this game of how does tungsten, AI compute, copper, China, all that relate to each other, and then how do you express it? Yeah. I remember years ago asking people, OK, there was a point where everyone was convinced stable coins are going to be big. None of the stable coin providers were public. How do you make money? Even though, you know, like, OK, it's small today, it's going to be big. Yeah. You don't get credit for the intellectual longing of the idea.

You can buy USDC, it doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't buy the stable coin itself. So it was always like, and I would ask people this whole time and people were like, I don't know. And the best answer anyone could come up with, somebody once was like,

well, go on a prediction market and just like take a- Yellow bet this thing. Yeah, like a market cap of global stable coins or something, right? But it's actually pretty creative, you know, a way to express the idea. But like, that was a really good example

of something that very quickly became consensus, but there was no obvious way to express the trade. If memory is a bottleneck, like there's, I don't know, five companies in the world you can go buy the stock yeah right now could you buy one and not work out as well as buying another like there's all that kind of stuff so maybe you gotta go by the DRAM ETF yeah right and like that that's your expression but I do think there's a lot of stuff you know like here's an easy one um up until recently uh the robotic hand yeah this is a 30

year problem 50 year problem that people have been working on if you have a belief that someone is going to solve the robotic hand and be able to have the dexterity strength all this stuff how do you express that idea right do you have to go find the single name private company that's going to be the one to do it it's going to be a public company is there you know all that it becomes very complex now we just saw recently somebody come out at one x and they've got like a pretty interesting hand it looks like they're getting closer but to me that's where it's really interesting as an investor is like there's an choke point it's an impossible problem that no unsolved yeah but if you believe it's going to be solved how do you make money yeah i mean i think

even to your point on macro i i've been spending a lot more time in new york hanging out with my friends who uh one of my buddies he just spun out a duquesne drunken miller shop and starting his own own own fund and i think they're spending a lot more time thinking about privates too right like the best macro to your point i think everyone is just realizing that i think if finance used to be just much more cottage industry right like if you're a macro trader you just trade interest rates or you just trade stuff that doesn't touch like private markets you're a vc just do seed and pre-seed rounds you're a growth investor just do series d's and do the ipo round i think like smart people realize that there's and maybe this is a risk but like

smart people usually think they can be smart in other domains extrapolate that across and i think that's why you see the best best investors just play every single game because everything compounds into each other um i mean i think even just like one example that i think a lot about is that um we backed a really cool company called efference they're making robot eyes um so one there's just not a lot of bespoke purpose-built cameras for robots interesting so even for the robots of the the humanoids themselves order for the data collectors right like some of these companies like micro hu1 scale like they're literally having gopros or metaglasses or like iPhones, taping this stuff. But what if you had like a mini

NVIDIA Jetson or PCB that and you have a stereo camera, so you get depth sensing out of the box, and you don't have any of the processing and the manufacturer at scale cheaper than everything else exists? Can you one supply all the data collectors because they're just using like shitty meta glasses that you know, great product consumer product that's not purpose built for data collection, or just like all the cameras like like the leading camera providers are like real sense of spend out of intel they

can only make like a few hundred cameras a month so this is like a huge choke point there but what i thought was interesting there was like one i think that's a really cool company to your point like if i can invest in the best robot hand i would yes go find that founder ceo engineer and just give them the private check but i think what i found to be very valuable is that these people at the bleeding, bleeding edges also just identify all the other checkpoints. I remember a phone call

like six, nine, 12 months ago. He was talking about like he needed to buy more DRAM because he was like, like I'm in China. I'm like going to visit all these camera factories. Like I'm I need like a big check

to like go buy a bunch of recycled DRAM out of like Chinese, like apparently there's like Chinese suppliers or like rip old DRAM ships off of like old computer boards. Of course, there's like resale them and he's like I need like like a couple million bucks to just like buy all this DRAM

and then it was also very interesting had a dinner with Sam Altman at OpenAI and he just mentioned it like came back from Korea he like bought like 40% of the world supply of of memory I think it's like it was like maybe public at the time so it's not like so like it was like just in in the moment where there was like oh and I was like like the memory trade the the memory trade is gonna be real the memory trade that like that like now everyone's seeing like we you you people knew about it like a year ago, right? And a lot of people made a lot of money doing that trade. But I think that's like a very good salient point around like how this is actually manifested in like a personal anecdote. It's like, okay, like I had a couple of top leading

practitioners, one with one of the most important AI companies, one just like an early stage startup, each identifying like a very interesting insight. And how do you piece that together? All right, folks, I'm gonna take a little break from this episode right here to tell you something about figure markets now i think figure is super interesting i've been an investor in this business for a very long time from the private market to now they've gone public built a very cool business and i think what's most interesting here is they have two sides to a marketplace if you've got bitcoin and you want liquidity but you don't want to sell the bitcoin you want to keep the upside and just take a loan out against it figure now offers these crypto backed loans they charge about

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know each other, I just want to like, don't ignore it. It's just like, uh, um, I forget, uh, maybe it's Rick Rubin has, uh, the saying of like, uh, uh, when an idea's time has come, it will find a vessel into the world, whether it's through you or somebody, it's just like, it's the, it's time for that idea. Right. And people are all coalescing around it, their intuition, the, the, we're all being trained, you know, in terms of what we're consuming whatever but like now is this idea's time yeah the same thing is true with the bottlenecks or with you know these various things it's like everyone is technically working on something different but there are these big macro waves right and so memory wasn't needed for just one

thing a bunch of people in different industries all were like ai is important yeah memory is a bottleneck and so they all arrived at the conclusion around the same time yeah if you hear from three people you just just go right it's kind of like the uh the drug just like buy then research yeah right if you hear three times just buy your research yeah i mean one thing i think about now is that like now the memory trade is like fairly well understood and like pretty fairly priced but i think the thing i think about is that is it like actually a structural shift or is it cyclical um and i think this is also relates and i think about this also in line of like gpu cpu cpu ratios one thing that i've been thinking about is that like the gpu trade did really well

all. But I think what's less understood is that Cognition, one of our portfolio companies, Scott and Russell are just crushing it there. They're, I would say, leading on cloud agents for development. So right now, if you're running single agent inference, you use a lot more GPUs, but you have one single thread. But if you're just orchestrating 1,000 agents, their like own docker cluster or kubernetes cluster you need a lot more cpus so it's like you already see intel amd trading out because i think people are starting to realize maybe it's instead of like eight to one gpu to cpu maybe it gets one to one cpu to gpu and i think the question is like is that express in the market am i too smart am i too late is it fairly priced

in so i think there's something i'm thinking about there but also to memory um if we really see see like more humanoids than humans i think you still have 100x more memory to go right so it's just like is it are we too early for that that like next structural shift for like yeah maybe micron and sk hynix should be like 10 trillion dollar companies and maybe that's true if you literally have 20 billion humanoids well there's gonna be two two things are uh i think are gonna be true at the same time these companies probably are undervalued like i think micron is cheaper now than it was the beginning of the year yeah if i if i remember correctly stocks up i don't know hundreds of percent but it's still cheaper on like a multiple basis and so it yes it has run but

maybe actually it's more attractive now um and so they'll likely continue to grow because it doesn't look like there's any relief coming for the choke point right but then the second thing is now there's this like massive economic bounty of profit that is sitting there and everyone is like micron and sk are about to make a shit ton of money if you're like some enterprising young startup founder you're like you know what would it take for me to get a piece of that profit by yeah and we've recently seen a couple of company etched right and some of these companies that say hey look we're gonna go try to do really hard things that other people didn't think were possible in a way being like really young and ambitious and not having a lot to lose helps

having access to capital which there's lots of capital now helps but i do think a lot about like there's the economic pile or the economic incentive has to be so obvious to elicit the competition yeah and so i don't know like are we going to see three or four american you know memory companies start coming to the market 100 people are going to start saying in the public market even if they can't do it right so like there's always the like grift you know aspect yeah but there probably will be one two maybe three technical teams that are like hey we credibly think we can go you know relieve this choke point and if we do we can make billions and billions of dollars yeah like that's how capitalism's supposed to work yeah no i mean i

think gavin rubb for etched i mean i think i mean i i mean their main target is nvidia inference right like i think the memory trade will like they would also buy a shitload more memory too Right. So I think it's like I mean, I think that's an interesting question, like I which is also something I've been thinking about. Like, do I rotate my attention towards more CapEx heavy companies? Right. I think, you know, I was born and raised in Silicon Valley in terms of my career. So, like, I think we're very used to just be CapEx light, high margins. Uber owns no cars. And and those are beautiful business models for a reason.

I like just print out cash. um but i think i think my current conclusion or a current like checkpoint of thought is um if software is just going to be a codex or a clod code away and you're just kind of competing on prompts and then maybe you have a little bit better distribution a little bit proprietary data um maybe we're just going to be in a paradigm you just need to go into atoms you You just need to do more CapEx stuff, which I think are the most interesting companies will have a lot of CapEx, right? Like everyone's buying data centers, everyone's buying chips, everyone's buying power, right?

And I think the power trade is like increasingly interesting because I think that everything is just like a denomination of watts now, right? Like you assume the chips are good, you assume the models are good, you assume the applications are good, okay? then how cheap can your electricity be? That's why there's hype around space clusters, ocean clusters, nuclear clusters. I'm sure you've seen all the different data centers powered by all sorts of interesting power things. But I think to me, why I'm excited and optimistic is that this literally feels like you get to play and support, help make sci-fi real. Fusion maybe can happen.

we recently invested in Helion. They've visited their reactor prototype. And I think they're close to some breakthroughs that hopefully will be published and all of that stuff. But I remember just as a kid, this is like Star Trek stuff, right? Fusion sounds cool, just some Star Trek movie thing. But if we're at the cusp of seeing this actually happen in in our lifetimes that's so sick and to be able to invest participate support those kind of projects and entrepreneurs like what else would i do like it just seems so freaking awesome to do the um there's something about like the iphone was the hardware innovation and then the software happened right and it's created all this profit yeah and it feels like you know if you go back to

maybe the dot coms like hey there's all like the telecommunications and wires and data center and all stuff right and then you got all the software i think that people have just now learned like there's a lot of folks in Silicon Valley who are like, I've seen this twice now. I ain't missing the third time. Right. And they're just ready to plow money. And when they saw, okay, there's the choke points, there's the infrastructure being laid, all this stuff. And what I find maybe most fascinating is there's a number of people who are considered the best investors in the world. Like these guys are all over multiple trends at the same time. And so you look at like the cap tables and you're just like why is peter teal in the ocean you know data center uh kind of compute

he also oh he owns x percent of spacex who's now doing orbital data and you're just like it's impossible like whoever solves the data center problem peter and founders fund is gonna make a lot of money yeah and they're just like yeah we know some are not gonna work but like we get the first look at so much stuff and so it goes back to like there's an information asymmetry as well and there's an access asymmetry of these private opportunities yep yeah i think that by definition of what makes market work work is information asymmetry um so i think a lot of you know the way i think about it's like just you know like you just got to just go to like the primal problem okay like i need to have unfair access to information all right let's figure out

how to do that so it's like okay i think on one hand i think doing public podcasts helps get your ideas out there but i feel like it's been very good to generate inbound ideas but then too i think that's probably like 10 of just where the information is because i think a lot of the inbound is just bad but then that means there's a lot of schlep work to just go meet people early in person you know travel uh be in san francisco be in new york be in san diego be in you know just like meet these people where they're at um and i think that's like very well deserved right like if it's like you just go read reddit threads or read a twitter thread and people tell you to stock to pick and make a lot of money okay that's okay maybe you can still do that but how do you earn

the information asymmetry like get to people early add value give them information get some information back and just try to collect as much of that as possible what about in the national defense space you guys have done you guys are in the andro right and you've also looked at and invested in a bunch of companies yeah like talk a little bit about what the thesis there is i think think it's a very simple narrative um america is the best country in the world like we love america and america should have the best weapon systems um i think the legacy i mean there's like an interesting question because i think it's like when i get bearish on like this super agi pill thing i just talk to legacy people and like dude these guys are retarded all right like

like seriously oh okay like i'm back back on like the super bull market train because i think it's like we think we're over indexing on like the people we know can't be that smart and then you go talk to somebody you're just like yeah wait legacy person uh oh my god you don't know what slack is right like i'm gonna put all my money with the new guys yeah or just like hey like we'll discuss this our quarterly retreat in two months and maybe it'll be on the 27 pipeline right you're just like man these guys just not they're just so complacent lazy just not doing anything you want to hear a crazy story there's somebody that you and i both know they sold their company uh in the media space and uh the acquirer has a quarterly board meeting and i think it's two

hours and they told me that when they were going through the transaction they were told we have to be ready for this board meeting because if it does not fit in the two-hour window it'll get kicked but it won't get discussed again until the next board meet like there's nothing happens other than these couple of people come together for the board meeting and they basically just like some papers Yeah. They just like disappear. No one works until the next board meeting. And he was like, should I sell my company? He's like, like he almost had like some apprehension. Cause he was like, wait, I can't imagine a company working that way. And it's kind of like successful. Right. But it was just like, that was their like operating, you know, mentality was just like,

no, we just make four decisions a year at the board meeting. Yes. And I think that's where I go back to, we should be optimistic. Right. Cause like so much of the world is run by these dinosaur like i don't i don't think it's even age right like i think it's a mentality right like there's some old people that are freaking savages still right but i think they're just like again you got to choose do you want to be a savage or you not want to be and it's just like if you want to choose to be a savage is the best time to go rip in the world but yeah i and that's where it's like you talk to um yeah so that's why i think it's like okay you talk to like legacy primes man like man they're just slow they i don't know if they're

like even passionate about, passionate. Because I think if you are like a super pro, like patriotic American young engineer, it's like you just want to ship fast, build the coolest weapon systems. And like, is that going to happen at an Andoril or Saronic or at like a Legacy Prime? It's like, there's this very much like a cultural talent swell

towards like these new Starps Neo Primes. So... Yeah, they basically just become these magnets of anyone who's worth anything in the industry and wants to go work for them anyways. SpaceX did this in space for sure. Anyone who is valuable in space for the most part just was like, I'm going to go to the place where I can use my skills best. And I think the last point, like why I like defense is that, like, I think the world is increasingly competitive and dangerous, right?

Like, I mean, just like a couple of active wars going on right now. I mean, yeah, I wish we could know what there's no war, but I'm not stupid. You're not stupid, right? Like, like pacifism has never worked, right? Like, we're not going to be, like, the tribe that gets conquered by the, like, the barbarians. We're not, like, let's not be too intellectual and too abstract around just base reality. That, like, you can be really smart, but if someone just has a bigger stick and punches you in the face and kills you, takes all your shit. Right?

So, like, we need to have the best shit. We need the biggest stick. So, I think just from like being pro-America and just like pro-reality, like I think where Silicon Valley gets weird is that it's like, oh, we're too abstract, we're too intellectual, like we should be pacifist. It's like law of nature is like the bigger dog eats smaller dog. So, like we're not going to change human nature. So, like play towards reality. um and i think third like i think um if it is actually more efficient for the taxpayer that's great of course right because like all these legacy programs are cost plus

overrun don't ship and they're super expensive if these like startups that are building in like a silicon valley approach great like we have better weapons cheaper and faster do you think And I get to make money off of it. Awesome. So, like, a lot of the national defense stuff is federal national defense, right? And so, we're talking about Andoril. We're talking about Saranac, all this stuff. Do you see a world where this starts to happen at the local level as well?

Like, one of the things that I find interesting is Axon. You know, they do the body cams. Also, it's like they're selling a lot to local police departments. Okay, great. But I don't know. the private military contractor space was red hot during the Iraqi Afghanistan wars. I keep going back to like flock and some of these companies are like,

you know, they got the cameras, they got the license plate readers, they got drones. At some point, do we just see like a private company say, no, we're going to do the,

you know, local private police and actually build like a scalable business. I, I know Raul, chief strategy officer of Flock really well. He actually went to high school with him, so he's an OG homie. He's a police officer turned entrepreneur.

I think they're being thoughtful around just like public safety, just keep it pretty separate from like private military contracting. But I guess I like that idea though. You're just like one of my favorite video games is

Cyberpunk 2077 and like these sci-fi books and like video games i think they predict aspects of the future and like part of that universe is that like the u.s government merges with like the biggest like military contracting company called milit and so like the president of the united states is like also like the biggest military contractor called militech and then there's like the japanese like asian cluster called arasaka where it's like kind of like the japanese god emperor but it's also like all the you know japanese conglomerates all merge together and they all have like basically private military security interesting um and i think to your point i think i think one reason going back

to like why all these burners want compute is that i think if you go super abstract like if compute is intelligence you need to make sure you have access to a lot of compute of course so i think that's why a lot of these guys like one i think it's everyone wants more compute but it's like if really shit hits the fan then you make sure you have like a couple thousand gpus that like that you can just physically have so you can like run some inference for yourself um but i think it stands to reason that i mean i'm sure elon's probably thinking hey like i'm gonna just make 10 000 soldier humanoids so i have a private army just in case right like if you were a trillionaire like you're probably just thinking super sci-fi and super hedge case what if the

u.s government wants to take me out like i probably need a hundred thousand humanoids i can carry guns like right like like is and that's me being maybe a little bit creative no but i think that's i think that will happen so this is a very interesting point so the humanoid companies um the ones that are publicly known that i think people are paying attention to obviously there's tesla uh figure abtronic 1x right we can go through maybe there's like four or five unitry in china it's cool yeah unitry agility robotics right they all have pretty much explicitly said publicly they will not allow their humanoid robots to be armed with weapons i know of one humanoid company i'm not going to say their name who is taking the exact opposite

approach they're saying no no our military is going to need this we are going to create a robot that can have the weapon and we actually think that that's an important use case of this and it's going to save American lives because they're not going to be on the battlefield, you know, blah, blah, blah. We always talk about technology as like who's got the best tech. One of the aspects though

that we learned with Anduril or even now we're relearning with Department of War and Anthropic, whatever, is like the strategy and the like moral posturing towards defense. We are seeing a stratification of like winners and losers based on decisions that they're making, right?

And so humanoids is like maybe the thing that is, if it's an abstract, like, oh, I could use AI in the military. People are kind of like, I need more details to know what I think about that. But when they see a picture of a humanoid with a gun, people are like, oh, shit, this is scary. People are like, I saw Terminator, right?

You know, take a peek. But you're like, no, there's going to be a massive business built doing that thing because the military needs the humanoid robots, right? A hundred percent. I feel like to me, it's just like, let's just be adults. Like, I think there is too much moral, I think that's a great term, moral posturing. It's just like, to me, it's like, I, yeah, I understand why it's scary, but I also understand it's inevitable. Like, if Americans don't do it, Chinese are going to do it. Russians are going to do it. Ukrainians, like, there's going to be autonomous targeting of human targets by robots. It's probably, if not already happening, going to happen. Well, drones 100% are doing various things. Yeah.

And then the other aspect, too, that I think is pretty interesting is, like, drone-on-drone warfare, okay. Like, I think people kind of understand that. If the drone is going after a military, like, combatant on the battlefield, I think people were kind of like, this is crazy. They saw the videos of, like, the drone chasing the soldier or whatever. Yeah, the Ukrainian force. Yeah, those videos are hardcore. But, like, I think we're just like, hey, this is the new reality of war. Yes.

Did you see the story about the Waymo and the two 15-year-old kids in, I think it was San Francisco recently? Oh, man. I can't wait to hear your thoughts on this. So, my understanding of the story is that there are two 15-year-old kids who are in a Waymo. They're drinking, and they have a gun, but it's like an orb. It's like a paintball gun, but they've painted it black. and the Waymo is driving them

wherever the Waymo has cameras in them that are supposedly only accessed during you know unique moments or like you know emergency type situation but long story short if somebody at Waymo realizes these kids are drinking they look underage and

they're shooting out the window yeah so they call the police and the Waymo pulls over essentially like disables itself yeah it is unclear whether they lock the doors or not but they claim that they like trick the 15 year olds be like oh there's some car trouble wait a minute whatever and like they told the police where the car was and the police show up and they get the kids i think a lot of people are like well if you're like shooting stuff out the window again like i'm cool with that

because you know uh obviously we don't want that happening in you know residential areas whatever but i think like what happens if the just two guys walking down the street and like a drone just like flew over and like, I don't know, like shot a net at them or something, you know what I mean? Like, or did something. Yeah. There's got to be a line at some point where people are like, all right, this is, we're now at a point where like, I'm uncomfortable.

Yeah. And I don't know if like where that line is, but it feels like we're like racing towards it and we're going to hit it soon. Yeah. Where the technology is almost, uh, has more power than us. Yeah. Well, I think that's where I think the American constitution, I think our political system handles these educations pretty well, because I think it makes sense that our elected officials

set policy. But when I think about like, like that, that specific example, I just think about like, my heuristic has been like, what if you're the victim of that? What would you want from that? A hundred percent. Like, fuck those kids. Like if, if someone was like drive by shooting at me, you know, just take them off the street. Like, I don't care. Like, like that's sad, right? Like if your wife or your kids are walking and like some drunk kids are like shooting Orbeez at you, at your grandma, they should go to jail. So I think it's like, so I think that that specific case, it makes sense that they should

be penalized. But like, here's a good, so I obviously, I agree, right? Yeah, they should go. There's definitely could be in trouble, right? Whatever. I don't think there's a lot of people who are like, nah, just let these kids go. In California, some people would be like, hey, just kids is harmless. But I was talking to KFC from a bar store recently about this.

And he brought up a good point. he's like is there a difference between if the waymo locked you in the car so like it's one thing if the waymo like pulls over stops calls the cops whatever but like if they lock the car now it's kind of like did waymo kidnap the kids like is waymo the judge and jury of the situation you know what i mean like it becomes this like very weird dynamic and like he had a funny point he's like well as a kid maybe it's like now rather than like run from the cops now it's like let's trick the technology like you know it almost becomes like higher uh uh odds or whatever but i do think again like you keep going down that example like yes you're shooting out the

window okay obviously everyone's like stop that but then could the technology go too far and if they like lock you in the car then our people are like well i want you to stop the shooting stuff but like you shouldn't lock the 15 year olds in the car that's like you know inhumane i don't know what's going to happen but like yeah i mean my personal my personal perspective on that is They're like, no, I think you should lock them and make sure they get prosecuted. Just drive them to the police station. Yeah, that might be better. Just drive them to the police station.

Like they're clearly, I just have a lot of empathy towards the victims, right? Like I think we, I think as a society, we almost think too much about the crime perpetrators. And like, dude, if someone was like literally just shooting at you from a car, like you probably get PTSD, right? Right. So just like, hey, we need to just have like good, strong policy to like not let crime happen. I feel like I mean, I think I mean, this is just a cultural political conversation, I think, just happening in America and around the world. It's just like, do we try to be nice to some of these specific groups that are high probability or higher probability of crime or try to be more lenient or like special case them or just have more of like a hard line rule? Like, hey, we're not accepting this. Today's episode is brought to you by Mogul.

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once you see how you can accumulate and manage crypto this way you'll never trade the same again archpublic.com go check them out today i got i got another one for you uh have you seen the instagram account there's a kid he uh he meets strangers and then he uh basically makes them feel like a celebrity okay so he wears the uh he wears the meta glasses and then he does the facial recognition so he like walk by you he takes a screenshot of your face he walks over he uses the app to figure out who you are he'll look through some of like your content online or whatever and then he'll come back and he's got these videos have gone like mega viral online because he'll find like uh uh he's got one

with an amazon driver like a delivery guy and that guy played like d3 basketball yeah but he'll come back he's like bro he's like i've been a lifelong fan i remember you dropped 20 against you know some college no one's ever heard of before whatever and this dude like lights up he's like oh she's like can we take a picture like so it's like very feel good sounds awesome he's like making these people's day whatever and they're like wait a minute this guy's just walking around like consumer technology with facial recognition software and he's able to tell all this information about somebody weird world we're headed towards right yeah i but like i guess like what i think about is that that's i think if you could say i can just google you like 50 years ago that

wouldn't sound really scary i think that's a natural extension of just like if i auto id and get some of your content again i think it's all i think it goes back to like intent maybe that was a nice like loop around right like i think a lot of policy should be just guided on like good intent and like good principles um so i think that's like an interesting world i mean i that's that's a cool idea i would wear those glasses if i could like read your micro expressions are you like are you lying to me are you bluffing me like are you earnest right now right like i think that would be pretty good utility just improve human communication um but yeah it should be like kind to opt in in both ways right like hey we're gonna all be ai enhanced just read each other's

micro expressions so it's like harder to bluff each other or it's like hey let's just take off the devices right like that's probably gonna be some new social norms right like we're hitting that now right like if i'm wearing meta glasses and i'm like hey like or zoom calls i like i don't like to i usually don't like to be recorded i'll just tell people hey like let's just i kick them out yeah boot boot boot the thing yeah so i think there will be just cultural of like norms get adapted because i guess it's like do we just expect the rules and policing rules of the last 50 years like extend to the next 50 years i don't think anyone expect that right like the way we consume everything has changed so i think it's very natural to me to say like hey policing rules

and just social norms of how to interact with ai devices around will just naturally evolve i've been thinking a lot about the neural links yep you know um i saw that uh now they've got 26 of them implanted which is a bigger number than i thought it was uh how many people have to have it safely done before you do it um well i i like a lot of the ultrasound techniques because i think the neural link case is a little bit weird because i don't want to actually have electrodes stuck into my brain which damages my actual neurons but if i could have you know so like we're investors in merge which is a open ai spin out doing ultrasound technique for brain computer interface um if it doesn't blow my existing little mini brain but only gives me upside

like i'm pretty down to experiment with it um because it's not in that case the ultrasounds are not implantable right you're not implanting something into your brain right like like for neural links you gotta open up your skull and like literally just jab like thousands of electrodes to like touch the sun like you gotta they gotta read like the actual electrical signals um so i feel like my brain is like pretty good right like i mean i used to be much more open to like all the psychedelics of the world and and and i'm like dude i'm too old slash i think my brain's pretty good yeah like that's exactly my thought process i got a good thing going yeah my brain's pretty good like i'm i'm kind of smart but i'm kind of dumb i don't need to like get way dumber or way

smarter like i'm fine i'm pretty chill the way i told somebody recently is uh if you got a good thing going you got nothing but something to lose yeah but if you're like rock bottom if you've got like massive ptsd if you're depressed if you're you know if you're in a really bad spot there's nothing but upside so it's like it kind of actually i'm not pro or con i'm just like there's different things for different people exactly yeah no i think for like the therapeutic use cases for ptsd sounds really really great but i just but just going back to like neuro link or psychedelics right like i'm very curious though like like one topic i'm not sure we even have free will like i'm i i think i might just be like a biological llm talking to your biological

alum we think we are conscious but like we're just spitting tokens back at each other and other the audience is also just like getting their brains like reactivated by our prompts into their brain i'm not even sure if we're conscious but i mean i i guess like my practical answer is like i kind of live like i am but i i maybe we're not conscious yeah i don't know so it's like it seems cool all right yeah i do uh uh whenever i think about like sleeping versus being awake this is a very weird thing right like the state that you enter for a third of the day yeah is not very well understood still but also the like transition period like i don't know if you've heard uh there's uh the thing went viral recently like uh if you close your eyes and you take your

eyes while your eyes are closed and you move them rapidly back and like left and right uh that is supposed to induce you to go to sleep faster and because i guess it like mimics the natural wave yeah like whatever it's like whatever the natural process of your body so like you can induce it yep um sorry of course i think i think rem is when you like what that's a way to detect when you're in deep realm okay interesting switching yeah so of course i try it right and you're like okay i didn't fall asleep immediately but like i never got sleepy you're like like wait what other hacks are there you know around this whatever but like the transition from like awake to asleep is one of the weirdest things in the world yeah because you're

literally transferring between these two states but you're like i don't know like eventually at some point like i remember the first time i talked with mateo at eight sleep yeah he was like i'm gonna compress you know like the goal is to compress eight hours of sleep into like i don't know maybe six yeah but feel like you got eight yeah i'm gonna do if i got two hours per day back that'd be amazing yeah right and you're like yeah you can use technology to do this like they're doing cooling and you know all this stuff but like that's where we're headed it's like we're just going to continue to manipulate the body and the mind in all these interesting ways yeah i think that's something that i think is actually finally i think also just a very exciting area i

think like this like dream of biohacking or longevity just wasn't computationally tractable before right just like too complicated to simulate every single molecular protein interaction in your body but it looks like we're getting closer and closer to actually being input into the human machine to drive a specific output you know so like i like peptides and stuff that all falls kind of the same category yeah i i think those are just like modalities to impact some input to express some output right if you just think of from a very engineering approach so like yeah peptides are just i mean just basically just snippets of proteins that like your body naturally produces you're injecting an exogenous one so like just retune in a slightly different direction

um but yeah like if you could just model out like the exact amount of this peptide or that peptide for specific outcomes that sounds pretty cool yeah like i'd be i guess like going back to your question i think i'm i've always lived a life where it's like i'm down to try everything once type of a mindset just try to like or it's like if it's like the safe story or the crazy story just try to choose the crazy story obviously don't die don't go to jail right like just don't blow yourself up but like i didn't push the limits yeah just i think we have a very short life on this planet and just can you have like a more interesting life path and just try to buy us you know the things that we're uh around the same age but uh i think it's very different for

us than maybe younger generations i remember being in like high school or even college but like take high school every high school has like there's a couple of dudes who like they do a lot of drugs yeah right and whether smoking weed or doing coke or whatever but like never once did anyone think like one of those guys may die right like like a like a lottery because there's fentanyl or whatever and now i think that i don't know i read just i don't know maybe a story every other day of like some kid randomly was at a party or you know whatever happens and like they overdose on fentanyl. And you're just like, dude, there's something about that mentality. I think that we all grew up with where like the risks that younger people now have to deal with in some cases is like,

I don't know if I would be like, you know, I'll try it once if it was like kind of Russian roulette, right? Yeah. Cause like you might actually die. Yeah. You can't, you can't end the game. You know, it's like a, all right, smoke a cigarette. Like you can't really die one time. Okay, fine. Whatever. But like, if somebody was like, Hey man, there's, you know, a line of Coke, uh one out of 20 chance that there's fentanyl in it like i think everybody i know would be like nah i'm good right so like it's very weird of how risk evolves for like different generations right um anything that makes the younger people more risk averse i don't know probably in some ways but but also in other ways i think that like if you're still the person who takes the risk

and then you like have survivor bias then maybe you're like actually like dude i'm special yeah Yeah. I'm special. Right. And you see it like gambling, meme stocks, like in the financial markets. I'm fascinated by the GOPs. I've now heard of multiple hedge funds that are banning traders from taking them because they reduce our aggression. It reduces like risk taking. It reduces like addiction, like all the stuff. Right. So like there's this positive benefit, but they actually want the risk taking on. Yeah. And so, you know, again, will that end up being the like policy? I think that's going to be pretty hard to like dictate what people do in their private lives. You know, they're not like, hey, you can't drink or whatever. But it is kind of interesting when you're like, hey, wait a second here. Are you hurting your performance at work because you want to like lose 10 pounds? Yeah. I don't think we understand that stuff well enough yet. Yeah, I mean, I think that's actually a super mega trend, right? I think everyone will be microdosing GLP-1s in the future because I think they're just too much. It's too easy to snack and too easy to get fat. So, just like, okay, I can imagine a world where, like, what are the downstream impacts? Like, people drink less, people party less, people gamble less, right?

Like, I don't think it's a big enough impact for me to, like, necessarily trade on it or whatnot. but i think it goes back to like we as society either up bottoms up choose what the culture looks like or there's some top down right and and if you're in a position of speaking a lot of people maybe you have some top down pressure but i think wherever people want to go i think people want to be hot and people want to live longer yeah the looks maxing stuff is uh well one is real but also two it's fascinating to me because in a weird way um i don't think that anyone was like using that term maybe three years ago or whatever right but like women all followed this like curve right of like over time so like makeup then you know plastic surgery whatever and

i remember reading an article about um uh brazilian butt lifts and the atlanta airport and they were saying that um you would get off the plane and they uh because you can't walk right so they would have all of these wheelchairs lined up. And there was a crisis of wheelchairs at the Atlanta airport because all these planes that were coming from South America, they just needed all the wheelchairs. And so they were like, what do they do? And I was just like, what a weird, you know, like second or third order effect. I mean, I have a funny take that I think South Korea is a leading culture indicator of the rest of the world. Okay. Explain. Because one, they were early on look smaxing, right? Like the plastic surgery rate for both men and women are very, very high.

Two, they're not having kids. And three, they're like degenerate meme stock gamblers. They are. Right? And I think it's like actually if you think about like what a lot of young people that I see, right? Like Clav is like pushing looks maxing. And I think it's also impacted me personally. I think when I was growing up, probably the same with you.

Like plastic surgery seemed like really weird and like I don't want to be someone with plastic surgery. It just seems unnatural. I think I've, whether it's like culture, I feel like it's sounds like, hey, you just want to improve yourself. Like, I feel like I have a less visceral reaction negative against. Like when you hear somebody's doing it or something. Yeah, I'm like, cool, good for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

But I think, you know, when I was like a teenager growing up, I'm like, oh, that's like, what's wrong with you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think literally like, like, it's like the Kardashians and all the celebrities just are talking about it and they're all. Yeah, normalized. It's super normalized now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The ones that are still weird to me, though, are, like, if somebody, guy, girl, whatever, if they are, like, hey, I got a nose job or something, like, well, fine, whatever. But, like, if I ever hear someone's, like, I got, like, calf implants, I'm, like, nah, you just, like, didn't go to the gym.

Like, you know, like, there's still some, I think, that are, like, too far for me. Or, like, height, how about height extension? Yeah, like that. First of all, I still don't understand how they do that, right? Like, break your legs or something. Take a pole and, yeah. um but on one hand you're like uh if somebody is like four feet tall you kind of get it yeah i'm like dude i don't know if i was four feet tall i'd do the same thing right but then if you're like

no i'm like six foot but i want to be six two i'm like you're so vain you know it's almost like the the thing but like again like it's the same thing yeah right and so like maybe the attitude should just be like hey if you're insecure about this thing or you want to change it or whatever like you got the money and it's safe like dude knock yourself out whatever who cares yeah so but yeah So, I think that, like, South Korean analogy also reminds me of, like, that rat experiment where, like, when it gets overpopulated, there's a lot of, like, preening rats that don't have sex, but they want to be attractive. Right? So, it's, like, an interesting, like, again, like, a sneak peek of what the future could look like. But I think, like, the downstream side, it's, like, I think we're just getting a little bit more extreme behavior because I think social media rewards, like, more extreme behavior.

And I think also just the financial side, right? People are just like, they know they cannot survive the nine to five wage cut, whatever term. So they just got to be swinging 100x meme stocks and like polymarketing and culturing. Dude, it's crazy. Right. And I think it's like, you know, we have a lot of friends that invest in some of this stuff. And I, again, like I'm not the moral arbiter, but it's like, yeah, it's, this is like pretty basic. Like, hey, every single sports game, it's like, hey, bet on your favorite player, pick your favorite.

this. I am very convinced that the gambling in particular is going to be this like huge national epidemic. It may already be there, but like it's going to get worse. Um, we've got a, a guy we've been working with, he does a podcast called nothing's off the table. And, um, uh, he's got a very personal story to, he lost millions and millions of dollars gambling and all this stuff. Right. And I watched a couple of these episodes and I don't even watch the full episode. Like I just watched like clips or whatever. And you hear these stories and you're like by the way it's almost never like one thing it's not just like oh i just became a degenerate gambler and like i don't drink i don't smoke i don't you know it's like kind of a tsunami of

you know things happen at the same time but you listen to these stories and um you're just like dude there is a lot of stuff that had to lead up to that being the way you like expressed the loss of hope or the you know the degeneracy but when you go when you actually look you're like i kind of get it yeah like i have a lot of empathy like i understand like the little paths we're like yeah yeah like even if everything was out of your control you end up in the situation and then you're just like dude i don't know i don't have another choice i'm putting it all in black yeah you're kind of like by the way that was stupid but like i see how you got there yes and i don't want to encourage it by any means i

don't think it's the right thing to do but also like yeah man because the other path was like you're a cashier at Wendy's and you're earning you know nine bucks an hour and like you know you've got a five-year run to get out of the hole right dude I get why you you know you took money from your mom and like you know yeah went and bet balls and strikes at the baseball game like I don't know I I think that's why I've I think like conversations like this like like the content you put out I I like I didn't really understand like the info product info market like game that much. Cause they thought it was like, cause maybe I just advised it. Like, I thought it was like easy to learn, easy to get information. But like, as I just gotten older, so I've talked to

a lot more just demographics of people. It's just like, I think people just actually need to see like you make it. You need to see like the Jake Paul story of how his dad was a roofer. His mom was a nurse. Like he was like a 10 year old kid doing $10 an hour landscaping the hustle for his bucks. Like he was negotiating his first little 5,000 follower Vine video. He got a $200 brand deal right so i think these like like blue collar work ethic stories need to be like told more and all the variations and flavors of it i think that the internet now uh incentivizes obviously like the build in public stuff or the uh like the authentic component of it which is very different like the mainstream media that was not a thing it was either they make you successful or they like

Yeah. Or they show that like the downfall, you know, whatever, but like they were the arbiters of what stories get told. I know on Instagram in particular, there's a ton of these stories of like, kids will be like, you know, I bought this property and I'm going to turn it into the world's largest Airbnb. Like today's day one, you know, whatever. And by the way, like almost none of them make it to day five, right?

It's just like most of them are LARPing. Yeah, of course. But like you go and you watch some of this stuff and you're like, you know, it's pretty interesting to watch this. And, and, um, there's a guy on Instagram, uh, I think his handle is daily reps guy. Okay. And he's been doing this now, maybe 200, 300 days, maybe basically a year, maybe. And what he did was, uh, he wasn't like morbidly obese, but he wasn't like in shape.

He was kind of like a skinny fat, if I could respectfully say that. Right. And he's like, I'm going to work out 20 minutes a day and see if I can get jacked. and he's great editing and all this stuff, but he basically has like a pull-up bar and like a dip, you know, kind of like station. He's got some dumbbells and he's got like a weighted vest and it looks like

it's like in a room in his house and he's got like a shot clock, you know, and he turns it on and he'll be like, you know, I did 20 pull-ups and do this, whatever dude got jacked and he's been doing it for a year. And the account is daily reps guy. And of course that like people want to follow along and like see this,

whatever. But what he does in every video is he says, you know, today's day 347 this is what i look like on day one he goes back to the skinny fat guy and he's like and now it's what i look like here's today's workout but and you're like all right he's got a formula but actually this thing is like there have been days where i've been like dude daily reps guy's gonna work out today right like am i gonna not go work out and so you're like i don't know like a lot of parents were listening to i don't know tony robbins or you know whatever

like motivational thing that they did maybe our version is just some different like instagram account yeah yeah i i mean that's where i i have hope or optimism right because i don't think you can you can't you can't make everyone a slave to your cultural values right like people gonna have to decide how they want to live so i think the best week i can do is just like hopefully you support missions and like present a character that can be helpful for others to follow and what you think is a better path yeah right so i think that's like the i i guess i'm more of a fan of like a competition of ideas versus like hey let's go ban everything that we think is bad right like i don't i don't have the arrogance thing i'm godlike taste on everything but it's

like hey i can at least offer and show an example of like how how i think of life is well lived or like support people and help platform people that i think are living really good well-lived lives and thoughtful lives and uh and i guess you kind of have to bet that humanity bends more towards like a productive happy optimistic one versus one that's like pessimistic and depressed and like gambling their lives away when you're supporting other people like what what is your mission like when you think about like when you wake up every day and you're you get excited like what's the thing you're going towards um i think like the like the feeling i mean i'll describe the feeling and then maybe the way i express it do you remember when like you're a kid and like you

just like really love like building like a lego set or like playing a video game like you open something it's like just super fun i remember like i like really like to like like open watches and stuff um i want to have that child like curiosity and feeling for ever or like i get to like look at problems and like tinker with it and like work with other smart people to like understand a system and maybe improve it um why like i don't know i think it's just like that get my that gets my brain going like that gets me off and intellectually so like can i just be in that type of state as frequently as possible um but i guess we live in like an economic competitive capitalistic world so then i think how do we translate that into like

modern economy it's like well i want to have capital i want to have i guess the cap money power of fame i used to think they're all fungible but i think they're actually pretty distinct But I think it takes money to just make shit happen. Obviously, I want more money so I can make more shit happen. And again, I think my feel for it is I don't really... I wouldn't consider myself very materialistic, but it's like, if I can see the ideas I want to see in the world happen more through the capital that I can wield, then that's cool. And I think working with like Jake and Logan really closely like I've seen like very interesting like world for like fames is very different from money like I think a lot of rich

people think that they're cool and then you just like real and I think you just see like when there's actual quote people the room no one gives a fuck like people actually like hook up to like the cool people and I think power is also like like a variation of that right like oftentimes in like a lot of the rooms were in like the rich report like the least cool people except the least interesting stories 100 they might have to the cool people and the powerful people yeah 100 um so i just been you know in that aspect like do you want to be like jake where you just have to roll with security and you can't go to the bathroom by or you know it's like uh that's a

maybe that you don't want that much fame but like you want the right relative levels of fame right and i think that that seems to be a nice sweet spot like i i'm i know you we have a mutual bunch mutual friends who are like super well known in like the investor and startup world but like no one knows that they exist in like the broader markets like like the multi-billionaire guys right like that seems like a really nice sweet spot where it's like the people you want to know and respect you respect you but like you can still just respect is the word i was thinking when you were talking it's like carl anthony towns uh during the nix run he was like uh uh he said some version of like respect is more important than money in new york city like

that's the currency of the city yeah and of course new yorkers so you know they fucking love that right but like i actually that's just the currency of the world is it's almost like uh if you don't have respect but you have money the money is no good in the rooms that you want to be in yes that's actually yeah yeah right that's well said and so it's like uh i recently went to the white house first time i ever uh was in the oval office i've been in the white house we're never in the oval office you walk in shout out i was gangster and and there but there's like uh it's like a gravity to the room right and um and uh of course we're there for the uh the invest america trump accounts but trump talks about whatever he wants to talk about when he when he gives a speech and so he

was saying uh how he likes to negotiate in the oval office because he knows when other people come in they're discombobulated and he's like you know i feel like i have an advantage in here and i'm like i could easily see that yeah but also like they're talking to the president united states right it's not just the room it's like it's a powerful and important room it's a powerful person the whole like uh hospitality and like the dance or like the pony show to get in yeah you've got to go through multiple layers of security and then escort it and like i think people almost like discount all of the like show yeah no i think people underestimate that i spent a little bit of time with the president and like that guy has crazy aura and crazy energy but i but i think this

is where i think when people think he's stupid it's like dude he he understands the like the orchestra like i think he really understands orchestra is a good way like he like he just like you you cannot be have sick aura when you're just like boom all the secret service all the security right like you're just everyone's just got you're bowing down right like you just you cannot help but like but like i don't know why do people like the world cup why do people like go want to go to the jc concert just like we're all kind of memetically like beholden to like like the the cinema the the circus you know what trump does that i i noticed that no other human i've ever seen does he walks in a room and he stops he just stands at the door and he just

looks and everyone looks at him right everyone else walks in the room right he takes two steps in he just stops look at me a hundred percent this shit so i was at pub key uh our friend's own pub key and um he came he like the bitcoin transaction to buy the uh the burger or whatever i think it's fair for me to now say this hopefully they don't get mad yeah uh they didn't want to do the transaction it didn't go through and he was just like staring he didn't know what was going on right and so they're just like nice and he was like great and i was like this is going great uh but but the second thing was he walked in he just stopped right right inside the doorway and like everyone was there to see him but like everyone turns and looks and it was just like

dude this guy just sucked every ounce of energy in the room and like it like just powered him up yeah and the rest of the time he was there like you know that i think that's truly genius right like i think that's where i thought i i what i enjoy what i do i get to like see the best humans at their craft like doing their game you're like oh man like he really understands like the interpersonal dynamics like power dynamics so i i understand why he's so effective it's just like yeah like you may not like his policies but like dude the guy obviously he became president twice like he's hella effective and i think it's like yeah it's not even politics just like you got to like learn and from like what he does that's so powerful um so yeah so i think that's

sort of like the power thing is kind of interesting right like i'm not super political but like i think we're just entering a world where policy just actually really matters so i think right like are we gonna be communist are we gonna have free like capital markets like like i'm a capitalist right so i think insofar as that like like we need to like keep some like core american values and principles like that's where i care a lot about just on the power side where i think it is actually yeah there is i think there is like a fight for the soul of what like the future of america looks look look 100 right 100 it's like we're in new york city right like mom donnie has like a point of view i guess like the other side has their point of view well the other piece too

that i think when i hear other folks who are like i'll just call it like kind of the the average commentator online who is not somebody that we know well or in the tech or business community whatever when they hear critiques some of this stuff i think they immediately think of like oh you hate this person but actually what i have found in talking to my friends is like i could sit and talk for hours and commend a number of things that mom donnie does almost none of them will be policy related yeah but like the dude is an excellent communicator he understands the internet better than almost any politician this dude is playing on a thousand compared to people who like they don't know how to open their phones right right so like i could look and dissect a

ton of stuff and be like this guy is like a plus plus at doing it yep but then the critique is like no dude but the like the policy stupid like you're freezing rents it's gonna lead to higher rents right and so you look at that and i think that that is like not very well understood by most people because they just hear the critique and they're like, no, actually every single smart friend I have is like, what can I learn from this person that they're really good at doing? So if you hate Trump, but you realize like he's great at just like sucking the air out of the room and like acquiring the energy, like you can learn from that. Mom Donnie is amazing as a digital communications, you know, kind of expert, whatever. And I think our smartest friends,

that's what they do really well is they pick these things from all these different people and they just like put them together and they become better themselves. I think one thing I feel very fortunate is that, like, I met a lot of these people. And I think you just realize they're also just people, too, right? Like, I think everyone makes a caricature of, like, these political figures. And I think that I'm sure we could have, like, a really great conversation with the mom. Dami just says you could have a really great conversation with the president. It's just, like, I think they all are pretty rational, pretty reasonable.

Like, they all have their incentives and goals of what they want to do, right? Like, I think rent control seems idiotic. Like, it doesn't make any economic sense. But I don't know. If you need to placate, like, the union and this and that and, like, you need to do some dog trades, right? Like, as a businessman, I get it, right? Like, how many deals where you got, okay, like, got to give up on this clause, but I need this clause, right? So, I think a political negotiation to me just sounds like a business negotiation.

And it's, like, that's where I think electing, like, good people that are smart and have similar values is really important. because like you cannot micro what all the information that they have, right? They need to, I think there's always going to be trade-offs. So the best you can do,

like hopefully like you just have some good people in there that like aren't going to like grift too hard and not going to scam too hard and just try to kind of do what they're said

they're going to do. Yeah. Speaking of like the government and everything, obviously the Bitcoiners, they're just like, I'm just going to opt out of all this shit.

What do you think about Bitcoin recently? That's how I feel. I mean, I know we've been And OG, I got my first Bitcoin in 2013. So I've been holding and it was in cold wallet for a long time. So I just like couldn't even like touch it because I just literally wrote down a piece of paper. Just like buried it somewhere because I just didn't want to think about it.

Yeah, I mean, I think obviously the price action is not very exciting right now. I think a lot of where like the risk capital has gone is to AI and things that just have a little more yield and productivity and a little bit more of a narrative um and better returns yeah like like the whole thing is like everyone's always like oh yeah the the the story is better like no no no like just so we're clear if you bought bitcoin a year ago versus bought ai like there's very different outcomes yeah um yeah i i guess like well i've been thinking about trimming my bitcoin i'll just be blunt um Because I guess it's, like, if governments blow up or acquires, you know, like, a sovereign, like, currency, we're in a pretty fucked up world. Like, the rest of my life is probably fucked up if the U.S. government, like, fails or the U.S. dollar gets blown up.

So, I'm not sure what it hedges against, right? like like what universe would be that like all my ai stuff and all my us stuff is like bad and bitcoin is like useful because if like all the us stuff is bad then i probably want bullets water land like just actual like survivable stuff um yeah i mean i think this i like similar to like eth i mean i guess like in terms of just crypto stuff i've rotated a lot towards hyperliquid because i understand the use case like i understand like people like trading people like perps people like uh getting leverage and like i understand that like they take a break and they buy back the token so there's like an economic story that makes a little bit more sense

versus just like hey this is like first digital gold and it's like a store of value um i don't know i mean i think like like i think there's some value of like provenance like i still kind of like my crypto punk like i still kind of like some of the stuff that we all dipped into in 2021 22 um but i think it might be more like art pieces or like historical sort of value type assets versus like hey this is like super productive um yeah so like i think it's like i might like just personally i think i'm thinking about trimming a little bit but like i think having some is not bad yeah but i don't know if like you want to go like 80 95 net worth bitcoin right now right 100 and i actually think people underestimate how many folks were doing

that right i mean i remember 2018 2019 i was just like every dollar i could find i you know i could pick up a dollar on the sidewalk i'll buy more bitcoin yeah and now um i still buy some every now and then obviously we got a public company that bought some right whatever but like um it is not the like press the gas this is the only thing to buy yeah and i think that's actually maybe one of the interesting things like it's still something that i feel i fundamentally believe in long term yeah it's just now there's a number of different things yeah and so you're buying all of that stuff yeah so bitcoin went from 100 to yeah so much smaller what is the most torque yeah like yeah right and it's just like yeah i like i don't like i don't i don't know what the

short medium-term catalysts are right I think long-term like having a stateless currency and a sort of value seems good but like what's gonna make me more money faster right now mm-hmm yeah I mean it's pretty interesting yeah where can we simply find about anti-fund or anti-fun on all the social media or upside anti-fun calm all right Jeff will and there's no stuff what are you looking for in terms of uh anyone who's building a business that's watching this i i i like just talking to people that i can learn from um so i think i'm pretty smart so like hopefully you're i think you're very smart i don't want to be too arrogant but like yeah just i like if i could just

talk to world experts every single day for like back to back that would be super awesome so i think a lot of it is like serendipity talking a lot of people but like hopefully just qualify for just higher quality conversations i think one of the things that's really interesting is like you jake logan all have obviously very different but related expertise in these different markets but that may be the one thing that you guys all like have a huge overlap on is you're very curious right and um what maybe 2019 2020 i remember having dinner with jake yeah and my biggest takeaway walking away was like how curious in puerto rico right yeah yeah yeah and i was Raining. I remember that. That was a fun dinner.

And I just remember being like, he's so genuinely curious, which was so counter to like the public narrative. And I was like, you just can't fake that. But you don't like go to a dinner and be like, I'm going to be curious today. You're just like, you know, that's you. You're trying to impress Pop. I'm going to ask him a lot of good questions, right? Like, no. And the other time that I saw this from somebody who I don't think people would expect was Saquon Barkley.

And I remember I went to dinner and he was just, and not like, uh, asking like stupid questions that you're just like, you're obviously not listening and paying attention. It's like, okay, so I got a new piece of information I didn't have before. Now I have this new question, like, well, what about this? Or how do I think about this? Or, yo, I saw this thing, whatever. And I just like really respect that. I think you have this, I think Jake Logan. Right. And so it's like when you put those people together and then you supercharge it with all the individual expertise, it's like, it's pretty special. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. Yeah, I think you touched upon it really well. I think the curious people just end up doing the more curious activities and then you have a curious story, right? Like it goes back to like an axiom for myself, right? Just like have, live, do more weird stuff. So then you will bump into more weird people. And I think all the interestingness, all the alpha is just at the weird edges of like the frontiers of what humans are even exploring. So again, it's okay to be in the middle of the herd and have a comfortable, normal, quote unquote, normal life. But if you want to have something just a little bit more extraordinary, you got to just be at the frontiers, take a little bit more risk.

So yeah, I think the Antifund brand speaks to that. I think the Jake brand, the Logan brand speaks to that. They're pretty maverick and rebellious in terms of how they've done and carried themselves and grown their brands and careers. And those are the types of people that we want to affiliate and associate with. Don't be boring.

Yeah, 100%. All right, thanks for doing this. Let's do it again in the future. Yeah, this is great.