The Pomp Podcast - Nolan Bauerle, Director of Research at CoinDesk: Cryptography's 90s-esque Boom

Episode Date: February 20, 2019

Nolan Bauerle is the Director of Research at CoinDesk, an early proponent of Bitcoin. In this conversation, Nolan and Anthony Pompliano discuss Canada's past investigations into the global financial crisis, how Ethereum's ERC standards shook the world, and why humans will use math to talk with Aliens. ----- This show is sponsored by The Grove: thegrove.co/pomp Your branding and website are the first things your customers will see.  You never get a second chance at a first impression, which is why it's so important that your website is sending the right message to the world.  Luckily, you have The Grove to help you with that. The Grove is a full service creative and design agency that helps new and established companies tell their stories.  The Grove firmly believes that a brand is more than just a logo - it is the entire essence of who a company is.  That's why The Grove works with companies on every aspect of their marketing, from brand identity, to web development and design, to SEO, to specialized graphic design projects. The Grove has helped grow companies like Tiffany and Co, Bloq, AAA, The Red Cross, and the Chamber of Digital Commerce by amplifying their branding and web presence.  Get big results today, and visit thegrove.co/pomp. ----- Join the Off the Chain newsletter. Pomp's daily email analyzes the crypto market for institutional investors. Simply, it’s the best crypto newsletter delivered to your inbox every morning. No frills. No bullsh*t. Just everything you need to know in a 3-minute read. https://offthechain.substack.com/ ----- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe. This podcast is presented by BlockWorks Group. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworksgroup.io

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to Off The Chain, simply the best podcast in crypto. Let's kick this thing off. Nolan Bowerly is the Director of Research at Coindesk and an early proponent of Bitcoin. In this conversation, we cover Canada's past investigations into the global financial crisis, how Ethereum's ERC-20 standards shook the world, and why humans will use math to talk with aliens. Seriously, he said that. This episode was a lot of fun, and I hope you enjoy it. Before we get started, I want to talk about one of our sponsors, The Grove.

As many of you know, branding and online presence is crucial to the crypto space. With so many damn scams out there, it's tough to tell who's legit. The Grove, however, is a full-service creative and design agency that will help you amplify your brand with the perfect website, logo, collateral, or custom design project. branding isn't just about looking pretty though dot dot dot like me the grove understands is about driving revenue if you want to check out what they're doing you can go to the grove.co backslash pomp again that's the grove.co not.com co new age stuff the grove.co backslash pomp let's crash their servers and light up the web page let me know when you do it and i'll shoot

you some fire emojis on Twitter. Thegrove.co slash Pomp. Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion this podcast is for informational purposes only all right guys super excited to have nolan here um welcome sir happy to be here awesome we got a lot to cover so uh let's jump right in um what is your background uh so trained as a lawyer uh

but didn't really practice did a bit of time in japan i was actually there for when the white paper was written uh did you go take the bar no i didn't actually i got the first job out of um, college basically. Um, you know, I graduated right into the meltdown, so that was a real fun time. And, uh, but I got lucky. I got this gig on a, on a deal in Japan and went there for a few months. Um, and then when I came back to Canada, I'm Canadian. Uh, when I came back to Canada, we're, we're, we have an oversized influence in this industry. So I understand why everyone's against it. Um, so when I came back to Canada, I became a long form, long, uh, study researcher for the Senate Banking Committee in Canada, and we looked into, first, the meltdown.

So we brought in central bankers and why Canada was insulated from it, but really tackling macroeconomic issues as they related to banking law. All right, before we go on, hold on. Tell me more about this investigation or research that you guys did into the meltdown. Well, I mean, it was basically a bit Canada-centric, I'll say. It was, why were we insulated? So Canada, as a federation, is divided almost the same as America, entirely inspired by the American distribution of federalism to the states and federal government,

except for one major difference. Banking law is all federal. Done on purpose because we were having trouble financing the railway projects and canals and et cetera. So it was really looking at why our banking law was different, why we were insulated. The conservatism we were known for in banking in the 90s and early 2000s ended up being in our advantage. we weren't mortgaged, obviously, we didn't have subprime, it was, you know, mortgage insurance was a much more important aspect of our economy. But then just looking at the contagion as well, how it how it all came about, and then why Canada was successful, you saw a buying spree of Canadian

banks immediately after I mean, it's TD Bank is all over New York City now. And you see these Canadian brand names that did quite well acquiring distressed American banks. But we definitely did look at the Basel Accords and everything else that went on with with the reaction to the meltdown. And we definitely got into the decisions central bankers made. So we had the central bankers. We had Mark Carney in to testify several times. Carney, of course, was the governor of the Canadian bank before he went to England. And at that time, he had a lot of interesting things to say and was not pulling any punches. So everyone was sort of happy to finally criticize some of policies that central bankers were operating under. So we kind of contained that all into

a narrative and it was focused on Canada for sure, but global moves and global changes and why that all happened. Did you guys like shit on the Americans when you're doing it? No, I don't think it was. We weren't really after anyone in particular. I think the Deutsche Bank guys got the worst of it. It was the people who jumped in feet first. I don't think it was, it didn't really focus on that part. But the reaction was a part of it, like how much quantitative easing was induced by that was an issue. Um, we didn't have to do it in Canada. So we were definitely looking at what are the effects of, of this quantitative easing being, um, um, you know, it's not just Japan and Europe anymore. It was coming everywhere. So what does that mean

for us? Um, so that, that was kind of how we looked at it. Um, a year after that, when that one was done, we did one on money laundering and terrorism finance. So basically the, uh, FinCEN regime in America. We came down to Washington and met the FinCEN folks and had some insight. But that's where I learned about Bitcoin. It was just in one of these passing conversations where someone said, look, we have this regime to, you know, catch people if they're using the $10,000 transactions and this and that. And one, you know, it was either from RCMP or FBI or I'm not sure who.

They said, and where do you get a load of this, this Bitcoin thing? Like it's here. Oh, people were using it. They had known about it and were mentioning that the things they were talking about might even be, their solutions might even be obsolete in the short term was kind of the lead in. Because this is coming down the pike. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they meant it like as a joke, you know, this Bitcoin thing. And I said, well, Bitcoin, what is this?

And so I started learning. And in 2013, when it came time for the sort of selection of a new year long study, I was right in there to push Bitcoin and we got it. they gave us a really yeah they gave us a nice large budget and uh and we got to fly everyone in and we brought andreas santanopoulos we brought all kinds of luminaries i happen to be living in toronto for most of that time too so um you know i would go up when the committee was in session to ottawa our capital but i was in i was in toronto a lot not far from decentral i was gonna say there's a ton of stuff going on in toronto at the time yeah i was i was there i would go all the time and get sort of advice from these people because i was still trying to figure stuff out

I'd come at it from law and sort of macroeconomic policy. I didn't really know much about cryptography or anything like this. So I had a ton of questions. And although I found it really interesting at first and knew how to attack it from tackle it from what I knew, I knew there was so much I didn't know. So I became sort of a student of cryptography at that time and realized that that was the most important thing for me anyway to learn about. So I started reading all the textbooks and major advancements in cryptography and just learning the history of what it was. So I developed a bit of a thesis around what was going on at the time. And we actually did a really neat thing with the study, Block 3600 whatever.

We actually hashed it into Bitcoin's blockchain as we tabled it in Parliament with the lines, Senate Banking Committee believes Satoshi's invention deserves a light regulatory touch. So you can go and see that anytime. And we actually got, you know, we drafted all of the recommendations, which were like, you know, leave them alone. This is a really empowering technology. Don't regulate. We met with the New York superintendent at the time, Ben Losky, and told him he was way too far ahead and being entrepreneurial even with regulations. We said from our view, this is not, this is really premature to sort of.

This is all the BitLicense stuff. It was all the BitLice and stuff because it was the 2014, 2015 time. And, you know, we met the Australian Senate Banking Committee. They came up and visited us for guidance and advice on what we were doing. And from there, the moment that study was done, I said, what am I? I think they asked me to study pensions or something next. And I said, well, that's not going to happen. Don't worry.

We all know they suck. Exactly. It's only getting worse. The virus was in me. I had been infected and there was no doing anything else, obviously. So I started going on my own a little bit, doing some consultations and working with a bit of the Toronto set at the time. And then Coindesk was bought and was moved to America. It had started in London.

A lot of people don't know that. Yeah, it had started in London. And I mean, they had journalists in America, but they had started in London. And so they were bought in 2015. and when they moved to America, I was doing it remotely, but doing some more long form research. And then I had a kind of a hack at the time where I would go to not Bitcoin conferences around the world. So I would never go to a normal Bitcoin conference, but I would go to the incumbent industries, which might be disrupted by the technology. So I would go to supply chain

conferences and insurance conferences, and I would do sort of one-on-ones. And then I would stay in that city for a few weeks and and get consulting jobs where it was just sort of you know walking people through and then part of the lesson was for them to pay me in bitcoin at the end that was sort of a major part of what we were doing um so i did that in europe and i did that in asia and uh and i did that for a little while but then a lot of travel and i could see in 2017 the market was changing and and you know what i was doing for 101 and introductions and and sort of evangelism um was going to be a little different and i wanted to do something a little different so you know the coindesk folks said why don't you come to new york city uh run our

research department and uh and you can live here and and change your you know career a bit and and do something a little more focused and so that's what i did i came in 2017 right in time for the uh crazy bull run so i was gonna say 2017 feels like just yesterday when people were pumping stuff on the internet everything was 100xing you got it and uh it was really neat to come to new york city You know, New York City is a tough town, of course, and you can come here and only to outsiders, but it can grind people right to the ground. And and what was neat was to come into this amazing market where the knowledge that I had was really useful and valuable to a lot of people. So I walked into the city and it was just a fun time. I got to do a lot of, you know, interesting meetings with interesting people.

And and so I haven't looked back. It's been a great time and I love the city and enjoyed it. Awesome. What exactly do you do as the head of research? A bunch of stuff. A bunch of stuff. I feel Coinbase has this unique spot in the market where they're owned by one of the most active investors. They obviously have kind of sister companies, but there's also this kind of Chinese firewall, is my understanding, with the media and some of that. But then also you guys know all the players, you know all the projects and companies. And so it's this really integral, you know, part or centerpiece to most of the industry.

So it's going to give you a lot of resources. It's amazing, actually. That's sort of what I've always really appreciated is to be at the center of the whole industry and to have a real bird's eye view, a real bird's eye view. So the firewall is real. I mean, our journalists have zero contact in there. I mean, not even Christmas parties type of thing. I think maybe Christmas party, but that's about it. Right.

They don't talk. Wait, wait. The way Coindesk shares the Christmas party with Michael Morrow. I think they've been invited. I think they've been invited. But I mean, but it's not a joke. It is very serious internally. I mean, they really, really police it.

There's just no conduct because we have to write about these people too. And in order for us to do that, they've got to be critical. So I'm not on the editorial side of the company. So I don't make those decisions. But it is, you know, it's unfortunate there is a perception. I'm not going to try and change it here today. But if you saw internally the lengths to which editorial went to to make sure that isn't a reality, it would surprise a lot of people. I promise you somebody's going to tweet at us about the Christmas party now.

But even that is like maybe they can go. That's how serious it is. So as you're kind of in the day jab, right, there's a couple of different aspects of what you guys have done. There's what I would consider like more traditional research, right, than you guys have built this new product that we can talk about. maybe just start at like a really high level what is um kind of the goal or the mandate right is it to educate internally educate externally is it to create content and drive views kind of what what do you view as hey here's why here's why we exist so educate and inform is a major part of it um but i'd say to put this in the larger historical narrative we're not trying to just say this person

made some money and they did well and this company didn't do well i mean there's a larger narrative here and i guess i would i'd break it down to um you know what what i learned in cryptography this is my own take but but i think is is sort of infused and in line with the way the company would see it you know cryptography started as a as a tool that only state actors used it was for war after world war ii we saw that was really the case because it was made illegal for any other person to get involved uh with cryptography because they realized what the powers were with World War II and the Turing machine and Enigma and everything they did. So when they stopped all, there was no education.

You couldn't go to university for this stuff. It was just stopped. The first private sector innovations happened in the 1970s when public key cryptography was invented by Whitfield Diffie, who was one of our keynotes last year at ConsenSys. So, you know, it went from the state actor to companies that did cryptography for you if you told them your dog's name and your mother's maiden name and all this crazy stuff. And then they traded that information because you were too stupid to satisfy your cryptographic

needs. Bitcoin, of course, was the original and most widely distributed example of public key cryptography put in the hands of the individual. So the meta narrative for us is to really show people that they are being empowered by this new technology, that cryptography, that the power of using a cryptographic key to express consent is really what we're talking about, that individuals can now do this, that it is taken away lots of discretion from other people that we've trusted until now to do these things and put them in the hands of individuals. So the narrative that we're trying to tell is much larger, and we're really anchored

in telling the biggest story here that people can use historically to look back on what happened. People are drastically underestimating how much work both regulatory technology socially have gone into pre-2008, 2009, any of this being possible. And that's, I think, applicable not only in just kind of electronic cash, if you will, and kind of all the different variations that people tried over the last 30 years or so. Cryptography is obviously a whole other one. And I remember, and I've talked about this before, but Zuko told me one time, he said, look, you know, this encryption and all that stuff used to be fought by the government. They used to say, you cannot do this. You cannot do this.

And, you know, what are you hiding? Why do you need encryption? Right. And it finally came to a head. And obviously there was a bunch of hearings and things like that. But today it's best practice. Yeah. Right.

And so this world where, you know, you would never imagine using a product where certain communication wasn't encrypted, et cetera. that's not the normal state. And you see it even today. I mean, this was done inadvertently, but that GDPR people are always going on about, right? They're all GDPR this and GDPR that. They put an exclusion in GDPR. They didn't mean to put an exclusion that helped us as an industry, but they did say privacy by design, which is the best practice. If the users keep their keys with them, it is privacy by design and therefore exempt from GDPR. Well, that's what we're doing here. We're trying to build a system where everyone can use these cryptographic keys with their person to express consent i think most americans the only thing they know about gdpr is that it made a bunch

of emails got sent and told them to like reauthorize or websites but other than that most people are completely lost in the u.s it was hilarious that the the the tool that was designed to keep us from getting spam and you know became the greatest spam and you remember for like two weeks it was like every day you get multiple emails every day every day but the good news is a a real robust decentralized public chain theoretically is 100 exempt from this law yep and so you can start to see the implications of what that means you know you look at cyber insurance right now it's a terrible product i mean just the worst and they don't really get much they get a little bit of value if a network goes down the insurance will pay it doesn't really help reputationally you can

start to imagine a day where cyber insurance premiums are lowered if a company chooses one of our platforms you know it's like putting a sprinkler system into a you know your if you do it then your premiums come down it's a better practice so you don't need to regulate that people do it this way but they'll do it because they'll save money and that's part of what we're hoping to to to see happen here and and so that's a major part of what's driving it got it and so let's talk about you know obviously you guys have this um really big vision of where do we come from what work did it take and where we are today and even into hey here's where we think the world's going in the future um and one thing you guys recently created is this crypto economic explorer

So maybe tell us a little bit about what that is and kind of why you guys created that. So I'd say that with the, you know, 2017, the major story, the major takeaway in the end is that people had gone over that psychological hump and they have now accepted something digital as property. Right. That was one of the big things that had to happen. People would say a lot of times Bitcoin's not real. I don't trust it before that. But now all of a sudden that people started to see, well, it's limited in supply. It is property. and they started to trust that they had actually had a piece of natively digital property, it sort of changed people's minds about what it meant. And that was really important.

But what we saw was one of the important pillars of the industry, Wall Street and speculation being the only real use case that we've actually been able to establish as a solid thing, that happened. But everyone started organizing their analysis of the industry around Wall Street metrics and around how Wall Street saw it. We definitely recognize the importance of Wall Street. And when I say Wall Street, I mean sort of the idea of Wall Street. This could be anyone interested in trading and speculating and finance and all that stuff.

It's a pillar, but it isn't the organizing principle. We see it as one of the pillars. It was the most advanced. We saw the most important human capital peel-offs already in 2012, 2013. You look at the Chews leaving Goldman already to build Ledger X at that time. And there are, you know, Michael Morrow and all these, Michael Sonnenschein, all these really smart people already gravitating towards this industry. So they were already getting, it was the most advanced, they were getting the most quality participants of the human capital flight, but it wasn't the organizing principle. When you look at it, you know, crypto economics, what are they?

It's economics like we all know. It's not a fancy word. It's still incentives. It's still choice. It's still options. Anytime you put the word crypto in front of something, it's just the root word. It's the exact same, right? Crypto economics, crypto securities, crypto incentives.

It's the same thing. Exact same thing. And we put crypto there to make ourselves feel smart. It is. Well, you know, there is an actual use to it, as far as I can tell. And the use is this, is that it's not a subcategory of economics. It's not a derivative of economics. It's actually a subcategory of cryptography and engineering.

Okay. Explain this more. So the organizing principle of this, a way to do it, is to think of the forces that would shape a decentralized network. How do we harness these forces to build a system? So it's really about system design and the economic forces that go into motivating people to build these systems. So that's what you're measuring. You're measuring the growth of the network. You're not measuring, you know.

So even pulling back a bit, when Coindesk came out with the BPI, which was the reference price of Bitcoin for a very long time, we were the first to do an indexed price in 2013. It was about 70 bucks at the time and no one had done it. That was great because it was able to benchmark everyone's incentives. If you backed out, a miner can understand what their cost was and what their return was. So that was really important. But as other assets joined, it kind of took away from that easy benchmark. A bunch of other speculation came in, other networks. Bitcoin was kind of behaving as a reserve or gold currency of a financial system, not just Bitcoin itself.

It was tied into the speculation of everything else. and it became really difficult to untangle and understand where the growth and value was really happening we're not going to be able to do it out of a simple accounts and it's not profits and loss and all that stuff so what are we really measuring here um so we said crypto economics that what's needed to build one of these decentralized networks is the the organizing principle just an organizing principle so we saw sort of five axes price still being important exchange activity being important, the actual network itself being important. So that can be the miners and the merchants using on-chain transactions. Social media plays a huge role in this industry. Everyone

knows the industry lives on Twitter. And then the developers themselves, like who's showing up to build these things, who's motivated. And then we made one other choice where we said, okay, well, you know, what does 55 trade pairs for Litecoin mean? It means nothing. It's abstract. So we said, well, Bitcoin is behaving as the reserve currency of this industry. We can use Bitcoin like water was used in the metric system. We just said water freezes at zero, sure, and it boils at 100, sure, great. And we'll just divide it evenly between that. What we said is we can understand using Bitcoin as a ruler, we can understand the size and interest in other networks. So the Crypto Economic Explorer doesn't measure the way Wall Street

would measure an asset in dollars. We're looking to measure networks and interest. Price is interesting. Exchanges are interested in a coin to list them. Social media is interested in a coin in order to argue about it, push it, and all that stuff. Merchants should be interested in various networks. And developers who are giving up their time should be interested in the platform they want to work in. So that should be a motivating factor. So we're measuring interest. Interest in networks.

It's nothing more complicated than that. And so what does this look like in application, right? If somebody goes to use the tool, describe kind of what that user experience is like and kind of what you were thinking, whatever they get out, what that output is and what are they going to use it for? So what we wanted to do was make sure that we can we can show the level of growth in all five of these axes. Right. Price is easy. That one's already taken care of. A lot of data providers that do exchange, some other ones that do network. So the block explores a few that have begun to specialize in GitHub stuff and you hear some social media stuff all around. We combine that all into one platform. We took data sources from all over. And then we also wanted to surface a data viz that would make it easy to consume this information. Because, you know, if the future is that everyone who's interested in these networks needs to get a Series 7 license and be able to read these huge Bloomberg terminal spreadsheets, I don't think we've been successful.

um like and i think i'm the only person who's anywhere near the finance world who thinks this the bloomberg terminal looks like a casino to me yeah right it's like blinking lights yeah yeah yeah yeah i'm like oh these people just sit here at this casino and you can make money you could lose money right it all comes out of the same place and it has that same sort of i'm surprised they don't put the sound on the audio of people winning gambling i've noticed that in some casinos where it's like but it's the audio you know it's not even the machines ringing up victories so yeah it's uh you know it's neat they show who's you know on the indexes who's making money and and and things flash and it's it's it's pretty funny absolutely so yeah the the conclusion

of the tool is simple i mean if you come in you can see the surface area of the shapes that are drawn um so we used a radar map a pentagon um along these five axes and uh if a coin um you know has a lot of development in social a lot of development in exchange but nothing happening on developers, nothing happening on the network, that should be an indication that this coin needs some serious second looks and to find out if anyone's actually building. What you want to see is something growing along the lines of Bitcoin. We know Bitcoin was shaped by those crypto economic forces. It worked. And therefore, we can use that to see what a healthy network looks like um so that's really what the tool is about it's about showing is it is it growing in

every way because if it grows crooked a little like a plant you know it's it's not what you're looking for you're looking for a robust healthy uh network on all these levels yeah it is um you know i think a lot about like bitcoin is beautiful and this idea of everything from the system design to the initial distribution to the way that people have described it it's kind of hit stride at multiple points in its lifetime according to different economic you know components different nation states that are doing things and people have really taken an asset and they've made it what they need it to be yeah right so sometimes story value sometimes medium exchange sometimes literally just for speculation right but but i do think um it's one of these assets that uh

we full you know we really understand yet we don't understand at all absolutely and uh you know what you're describing in terms of the growth and a lot of the network effects and kind of that interest is very very different than a majority of what we've seen kind of launched in the last two three years yeah yeah and and that's the way we approached it we said if we're gonna if we're gonna make a useful tool for people um we can't just do what's out there already because that i mean it's fine you know it was it was great to show that these things were real they were happening people were trading them that was that sort of psychological thing that i mentioned earlier it was very useful to market cap to understand that there's people interested and

buying it okay great what are they interested who else is interested um is it just speculators is it just people trying to pump a bag on social or or what else is going on here yeah and so that's really what we're trying to uncover i uh speaking of pumping bags uh one thing that just fascinates me is imagine if like the boiler room crowd right you know from the what is it 90s or whatever uh if they had social media like everything we know that they were doing now imagine if they had the tools that we have today it is amazing i mean it is it is it's created that tribalism but that's kind of what these coins need i mean if there is if we're inventing the the future of of these networks there's no room for sentimentality and that that's one of the great things that that i

think the the whole wall street pillar of the industry has brought these are not sentimental people. They're not coming because they want the same things that the early Bitcoin people wanted for macroeconomic and central bank change. They came because they said, OK, this is a new asset. People are making money. I want to find out how to make money. And if this thing doesn't work, or if they don't like that community, they're able to call it out really easily. And that's important. That's the sort of anti-fragility of these networks. If they're not capable of taking criticism than what's going on here. I've often done that. You know, I've done a lot of the event work for Coindesk as well to make sure that the people we have speaking at our events are

top quality, speaking about really relevant things and interesting things. And I've often said to the critics that we go out and get, look, Bitcoin's a big kid. It can take whatever you have to say because people are very nervous to come and criticize. And I said, we want to hear everything. Yeah. Ben Horowitz talks a lot about like peacetime CEOs and wartime CEOs, right? And this idea that uh usually somebody is one or the other right so they're really really good at running the company when everything's going well when things you know shit the bed they absolutely fail or vice versa you've got kind of the fixers the people can come in they can fix problems and they get really bored when the company is is doing well and the kind of unicorn or or um the holy

grail of a founder somebody who can operate in the peacetime and wartime and um you know as you kind of think of it most crypto assets live perpetually in wartime right there's somebody always trying to attack them. There's somebody who's trying to beat them. There's somebody who's always, you know, criticizing them, whether it's both, you know, technically or some of the social aspects and design. And so we've just never seen this before, right? Where every single project, every single asset in an entire industry is at wartime 24-7, 365 on a global basis, right? And so the ones that have persisted or thrived like Bitcoin, it's pretty amazing to see that happen in such a short period of time to have withstood all of this.

And that's really the most important thing. I mean, every day that Bitcoin survives, it is more like what gold is supposed to be in our economy. It behaves more and more like gold. And that's really what we want to see. We want to see it take all of this abuse and criticism. And of course, there's the joy of getting to throw it in people's face again because we're pretty convinced that we're right about this.

But yeah, it's a neat part of the industry and I think keeps the fires stoked. Absolutely. All right. So you've got this really interesting theory about Ethereum and the ERC-20 standard and how it has shook the world, right? Talk a little bit more about why you think that and what that impact means moving forward. Well, it was a contract.

You know, this is what I would often, as everything was going crazy in 2017 and were looking to help people and guide them and so they don't just get swept up and everything. And then as things came down, they said, oh, you guys are wrong about this and that. And I said, look, this was one contract. It was one simple contract and it shook early stage finance. The whole world found out about it.

And a lot of the pretzels and mental gymnastics to make them utility tokens because of the whole regulatory stuff, I think made things come out pretty crooked. Um, and because it was so, uh, novel, it really ended up creating a situation where, um, I mean, it's pretty crazy to think about, you know, there's one smart contract, one protocol, whatever you want to call it. Um, and not only the, the, the real impact, right. Meaning that look, there's billions of dollars put into companies, right.

Global investor base, all this stuff. But even bigger than that was the fear that it drove into so many different industries. Right. And you saw incumbents in finance, incumbents in supply chain, right, all the way through, you know, transportation saying, oh, my God, this thing is coming, right? And it was like the writing was on the wall and they literally started making decisions out of fear. I mean, you just saw it. Well, I mean, they saw the truth. The way it had worked before was you went with your handout with a great idea to the VCs and begged them.

And, you know, it was kind of a clique. They knew who was great. And if you got an interview one place, they couldn't wait to give you money. And if you didn't, then, you know, you were on the outside. It was a power pendulum, right? So I always talk about this thing where the pendulum had swung in the favor of investors and investors were able to dictate terms. They, you know, come you come pitch me while I sit on my throne. And what we saw in 16 and really in 17 was the pendulum swung back in the favor of founders.

And there was no rules. And they could raise money from anybody. All of a sudden, if you sat on the throne or not, it didn't matter. Your dollar was good, right? Or your Ethereum or Bitcoin was good. And, you know, like anything that happens at one time, the ambitions were wildly outstripped what was possible. And we had these huge raises that were probably unnecessary. I mean, I don't know how many people need $4 billion to build a network.

It's, you know, I hope everything works out. But it had shrunk the distance between idea and market more than it has ever been shrunk in the history of the world. More than the internet itself could have done. This was a really remarkable shrinkage of that distance so that anyone in the world with a great idea now theoretically had the opportunity to get that idea financed. Of course, the whole thing kind of went sideways, right? We had a lot of rent seekers along the way. The ability to sort of launch a token had all kinds of lawyers and none of the things we really wanted. The things that we were trying to get rid of.

So for a brief period, it shrunk that distance and all of a sudden it grew it more. um so from that you know you start to say okay well what were the problems and how can we fix these um we see already with the jobs act in america um you know the one million dollar crowd fund rates don't forget the dow failed two tests the dow failed the howie test as well as is this an exempt market offering um you know it was a simple test to determine it wasn't it raised too much money so we talked a ton about the howie test on on the podcast but maybe explain a little bit about the exempt market. So the JOBS Act, when it came out, was really designed with the idea in mind that small enterprises would become major employers and that the ability to

launch a small enterprise and raise money to get it going was going to be the driving force. So they created the crowdfunding exemptions, which were pretty simple. So they go back to the 32 or 33, 34 acts. You don't need to be an accredited investor, but you can't invest more than $10,000 a year. And the companies that are raising only need, can only raise a million dollars. And it's a pretty simple process. You file and it's done. It's just, you know, unless they get back to you and say, this is not, this is not compliant. Otherwise just let them know, just notice them that you're doing this and then show them that you didn't raise too much and continue with your Edgar filings and all that stuff. So they created this vehicle,

which has been kind of used here and there. It's not really caught fire because the $1 million raise is pretty low. One of the great things that could happen that the SEC could do is just to put a zero onto that raise. And I think a lot of troubles would go away for both the crypto industry and for the SEC. They're not going to have to look into these small projects all the time that are being maybe clearly in violation of rules and ripping people off. But $10 million raise is not a systemic threat to the economy. I mean, that's really what the acts were all about, right? Those old acts were really about making sure that the Great Depression didn't happen again and the Wall Street crash of 29 didn't happen again. That's why they put them in in

the first place. The 20s, people compare crypto often to the 1990s. I compare it to two different eras. It's sort of wider internet revolution, which is kind of like what Niall Ferguson talks about. This is the reformation. It's the 15, 1600s. It's nothing to do with the 90s. And the other one is the 1920s. What we saw with the ERC-20 in 2017 was a lot like Wall Street in the 1920s when it was really new and exciting and all kinds of projects were being launched and tons of them more scams. But everyone was participating. Everyone had their chance at making money. And then when those laws came in, they basically said to, you know, 90 something percent of the world, forget it. You know, don't look here. You're too stupid. You'd have no business around

here. So that's one of the really neat things the RC20 did is it said to the world again, here you go. Like you can participate in this. You do have the access to this stuff. And so I'm really keen and excited and would love to see that zero added to the exempt market. And i think it would be a great thing for a lot of crypto projects 10 million dollars is enough to get your thing going for sure do you think there will be similar shock waves that go through at the scale they did from erc20 with new protocols new standards um and can there be multiple ones that happen in the future or do you think it's kind of episodic if you will one at a time so you know the the the the good news is some important infrastructure was built um with

what happened in in 2017 stuff before for sure so it's not all 2017 stuff these ideas were around for a while but there are now opportunities to use what's already been built to do things that are similar to the rc20 uh boom so personally for example i've got a science fiction book that i've worked on since 2015 bitcoin themed and and all that stuff i'm doing a royalty contract um so i'm going to launching a coin yeah basically i mean i don't want it to i'm not keen on it trading on exchanges and all that. It's not a second market thing. But the infrastructure is there for me to do the following. I can offer a contract for 30% of future earnings to investors, and it's just paid out when I sell it for dollars on Amazon and iTunes and all that stuff. That infrastructure is

there to empower me individually. So one can imagine that while the ERC-20 was really good for teams to build stuff, the stuff that's already been built can help individuals use this stuff to help themselves. I mean, one of the worst financial contracts which exists in the world today is the royalty contract. It's abysmal. It's terrible. You get nothing if you're a writer or a musician or an artist. But the infrastructure is there now to do this in crypto. And so there is an opportunity for that, once again, that distance between idea and market to shrink and for people to be individually empowered. So that could be one of the next big booms where people start using this stuff and start billing on it. So I don't want, I'm not billing a coin to get transactions off

other writers doing i don't care right if i do it and i'm successful other people can copy it and and that's that would be the good news yeah i mean what you're talking about is an experimentation that you know some people would be in the camp of oh this is dumb you know i don't want to use it and so you should never even try there's a second camp and probably the camp that i'm in where experimentation of every form should be encouraged because we don't know right exactly and so you know, I have my personal opinions about certain tokens or networks or even, you know, designs and the people behind them. Right.

But I think that we've got to, as an overall industry, get much more serious about saying I can disagree with you and still want you to be experimenting and still trying to figure things out because there's a non-zero chance that you actually do figure something out that I can then incorporate into what I'm doing. Absolutely. And that's, I guess, another part of the industry that needs to be further communicated to the wider world. Because at the base, we are talking about cryptography. We're talking about cryptography here.

Cryptography is not the same as a computer game. It's not the same as just your normal consumer internet. It works in a very different environment. And, you know, if it is like video games, right, then it would be, you know, you have Pong, which Bitcoin is Pong, right? We can move value from here to there. It works perfectly. And it actually works. It's a real video game.

It does what it's supposed to do and probably doesn't even need to change. It's perfect and elegant the way it is, right? It does its job. Pong didn't need to be changed. Pong is still a great game. There's a bit of the experience in Pong in every single other game and it is used as this guide. But this experimentation side of crypto, because there is an adversarial environment, because it must, we only know it works if it lasts for years and no adversaries break it. It's not an overnight thing.

It's not like, can you get to the end of Mario? Does the game, does the animations and graphics work for you to get to the end? If there's a bug in Zelda, like a bomb doesn't blow up a wall, it's no big deal. You send a patch and you're good. In crypto, it's not the same. It's either bulletproof or zero. There isn't a middle ground. So experimentation is hard in this industry.

It really is. And so it must be encouraged because we need it. But there is a conservatism, which is important, too. And so, you know, one aspect that people probably don't give enough credit to in crypto is the methodical kind of very slow, intentional, safe software development of Bitcoin, for example, is to avoid any issues. the contrary to that or the opposite is that a ton of these projects were racing right they were trying to build like a startup they were racing to get code written and out into people's hands and iterate right and then we've taught founders to do that when building companies but what you're describing is actually that mentality of kind of agile software development um is a detriment when

you're trying to build a store value we're trying to build a medium of exchange right the silicon valley fail fast and break things does not work here it just doesn't it's it will it doesn't work in very specific use cases yes it works if you're building you know the next supply chain what i'm doing it works for right i'm not threatening protocol i'm not creating a protocol i'm not doing any rc20 by the way because my book is bitcoin themed so i must connect it to bitcoin so it'll be rsk okay yeah um so that's not gonna hurt bitcoin at all it's me seeing if i can use Bitcoin to do this. And I think I can. But yeah, I mean, I never really had skin in the game as far as the big debates for scaling went for Bitcoin. But what I will say is that to see the consumer

facing people get into dialogue with the actual cryptographers and core devs, and then that the outcome was that prudence and security won the day, I think was really encouraging. Really, really good news for the industry. Because if it had been the other way around, then we don't know what the answers are. Right now, the important thing is to preserve Bitcoin and make sure it keeps being Pong. It keeps doing what it's supposed to do. We don't need to turn Pong overnight into a role playing game with shooter capacity. And none of that's important. We don't need to bat coffee today. It's not important. It's funny because everything that the detractors used to, to negate the importance of Bitcoin are actually the core strengths of Bitcoin.

Absolutely. Right. And what it does is it, it very, very quickly illuminates those who understand it and those who don't. Now we've got a lot of work to do to help everyone understand it. But, but it is pretty funny to me to, you know, when you hear people say, Oh, it, it, it's slow. Okay. Do you know why it's slow? Do you understand the advantage of it being slow? And it goes even more fundamental to that. It's, you know, there is a conference called RSA. Okay. It's the largest cryptographers conference in the world.

And at the end, they have a panel called the cryptographers. And that's where they have Shamir and all the great cryptographers, Whitfield, Diffie. They all come for this last sort of really prestigious panel session. 50,000 people in Las Vegas, massive, massive conference. um so they had last year because our crypto had sort of usurped the word crypto they call their industry crypto right yep and so that was the big joke at the start oh crypto you know it's not crypto so they had all these really smart people right really smart the pioneers of of uh rivet shamir the rsa guys everyone right um and they went on about how oh the hash rate's too

high? Why does anyone need that hash rate? They kind of, you know, poo-pooed on everything to do with crypto for quite a while in the one hour panel. And then they followed it up immediately after with a talk about Cambridge Analytica and Facebook, right? And then they sat there and moaned and cried their eyes out that their work is not a priority to the C-suite in their company, that privacy and cryptographer security work is never going to be taken seriously by the CEO of Facebook and this and that. And I'm sitting there really frustrated watching this. The only guy to stand up for crypto was Whitfield Diffie in the end, for our crypto. They're sitting there saying, OK, you know, Bitcoin does all these things, but it's stupid. And then why aren't we taken

seriously by CEOs of companies? You know, what we're saying is you're actually in charge in our industry. Like you guys now, privacy and security are the premium. They're what we need to be guided by. That's the advantage of the industry. And so your ideas are the selling points. Your talents and skills that you bring to make these networks robust and anti-fragile and secure are exactly our advantage and why we can win. So to see these people complain about not being taken seriously while at the same time poo-pooing on crypto made me have a whole new respect for the cryptographers that are in our industry who are finally bosses you know what i mean like that zuko is the boss of his company and then um you know the protocol itself is another

story but that there is this person out there who can say i think this and i think that and he's focused on privacy and security first means something else totally different so i can't say who who told me this uh and they said joking but uh what they said was uh the internet allowed the nerds to have real revenge right unlike all the business people but they said crypto allows the real nerds to actually have the revenge on everyone who was pretending and i think what you're talking about is very similar here where it's that you know the difference between a you know a front end or an app developer right their software engineer etc but the people who are working on deep cryptography just they're different right and uh it's different training it's different

kind of ethos is different um you know i think just uh perspective on the world well it's it's it's a little bit like you know it's it's it's different because it's an unfair fight the the the the software people are just ship software that people will use if they like it or not it's like an aesthetic thing does it look good does it feel good um can we get you digitally addicted yeah yeah yeah with cryptographers it is how is the person who's trying to screw me thinking. Because if there's one weakness in what they do, it can be exploited. They can have a perfect system. One weakness, it's over. So it's an unfair fight in the sense that the adversary needs to find one weakness and they can topple the Jenga. Whereas the person building the structure

has to think of every possible one. And it's very easy. That's why you hear all the new Bitcoin, the better Bitcoin, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Come on. Bitcoin, you run for 10 years and see how it goes you see if no one the daily attacks finds a way to get in um and and that that's an amazing thing that that bitcoin works is still almost a miracle it's beautiful that you could coordinate this elegant system and that it works you know i often tell people do you know how much we pay for security in bitcoin zero it's an incentive model and people pay to do it they pay to do it right and then they win money and crazy it's amazing you know it's amazing beautiful beautiful and amazing all right before we finish up let's uh do a rapid fire um which newsflash

is really not that rapid no one no one's ever done it rapid but um what do you think is your most controversial thought in crypto like the one thing that you believe that the highest degree of other people would disagree oh i'm gonna call you out if you don't say something i'm trying i'm trying i'm trying to think of one thing uh uh that that it's not wall street first that it's not Wall Street first. And I'm not saying that I'm arguing against the rehypothecation of or the financialization of Bitcoin. That's not what I'm saying. That things like CryptoKitties are probably more important. I don't mean CryptoKitties itself, but the idea that people can play and do things. You know, I fully imagine a day, I know Brian Armstrong was talking about

it yesterday with the Reddit going crypto. Yeah, I mean, I've been talking about this for a long time and and i do believe it'll be a job one day to like stuff on twitter and share it and all that stuff i mean i really believe that and and i think that'll be um empowering for a lot of people and that eventually we're not talking about uh a bunch of people who are you know sort of slaves to protocols and and any of that stuff but a lot of people just using this to make their life better yeah which i don't think is controversial it's funny because uh i just read an article that said uh you know the government shut down a bunch of these workers are turning to uber lyft airbnb etc to um to get income right and what you're describing is another type of activity that

creates value right and uh if you're able to actually get economic benefit for that value you're creating um it changes the way that people think about work it changes the way people think about the output in which they create and i think it flattens things i mean the the old expression time is money is really true um but it hasn't been an e like if you really got into the formula you couldn't say time equals money until now you'd have to say time equals money plus the inflation that is targeted by a central bank plus all the other policies that add cost onto the money so your time is not converting equally to money in the end what is bitcoin it's time it's a record of time what happened when at what time and and here we have this sort of flattening of time

becoming money again and and that's a really important thing for sure because the most finite resource we have in the end is our time so how do we spend it right if you can spend it um in an industry that pays you for your time um that's that's a great thing have you ever seen the movie uh i'm gonna forget the name but uh justin timberlake and he's got the uh the time in his arm yeah just i think it was like i think it was literally called like time or something right but I remember watching that movie. And for those that don't know, basically, everyone is a sci fi type movie and everyone walks around with a clock on their forearm. And for you get paid in time. So when you go to work, you basically your time gets extended. And if you ever go to zero, you end up dying. And if you want to pay a toll, take some time off. And so time is really the currency. and i remember watching that and being like whoa right like we have life so backwards because it was this it was this huge metaphor right and when you kind of watched it that way

it just was so um just kind of smash in the face yeah it does right it does yeah it's it's if you if you're forced to give up your time it does feel like that that kind of oppressive um not free environment for sure what uh what's the most important company in crypto other than a dcg company most important company in crypto um look i mean i i really believe coindesk plays a vital role in this industry i don't want to it's a dcg company but uh you're literally the first person to just ignore the rules i'll think of another one the most important i mean i don't look the the one that i've actually used um i don't know if it's the most important in the long run. But something that I used that I think articulated what was going on well to people

in the early days with Zoppo, that we had this mountaintop and that there were people guarding the Bitcoin up there, somehow made people think that it really got through. I always saw people click when I mentioned that. It's pretty badass. It's pretty neat. Yeah, it's pretty neat. um you know a lot of those exchange exchanges you know i i love the the sort of um privacy focus that kraken has as well um i'm a big fan of shapeshift um i'm happy to read the way they had sort of taken account of their last year and said let's focus on what we do best um and and i look forward to seeing what that is because i i do believe that that eric is one of the the smartest and sees it comprehensively, that's really what I look for,

people who can see it, the biggest possible story. Because we're not dealing in, like I said, this Wall Street thing is great, it's fun, and we'll always be there. We're going to eat Wall Street, that's going to happen. But it is not the end of the story. It's a pass. It's a stop along the way. Long Bitcoin short, the banker's only for a while. Yeah, exactly.

All right, what one regulation would you change or improve if you could? Absolutely. The crowdfunding, and I'd put that zero. Go from a million dollar limit to 10 million. Yeah, 10 million. I think 10 million is all companies need to get going in this space. I don't imagine why you'd need that much more. I mean, maybe. But the only way this thing is going to scale, I'm a big believer that we're going to live in a multi-token, multi-chain, and that's how it scales. It doesn't scale through just on-chain transaction. I think it scales through the number of chains and coins that are there. and interoperability being a major part of how that can help coordinate all this stuff. So if that is all possible, then a lot of these things are pretty bespoke. What we're trying to do, what do these things do? They authenticate really well because possession equals identity, right? You have the key, you are who you say you are by sheer virtue of having the key,

which is that sort of light touch that we want from a point of view of privacy and security in a completely connected digital world. And then that you can sort of extend that to the types of bespoke. So it's authentication and authorization. What transaction type? In Bitcoin, it's simple, just send. But we do want to sort of can and bottle all kinds of transaction types. And that's when we eat the regulator, right? When we can start turning the compliance of a regulation into uh an authorization uh on a chain then we've done their job and they can they can just go back and sit in congress only which is the way it should be in the first place uh we got to get everyone who's not in congress in the senate sort of you know turned into some sort of

protocol um if we can right save everyone money tokenize the regulators tokenize them just get them what's the most important book you've ever read um i mean i always go on i'm a huge mark twain fan okay and i think if you go to mark twain's um you know mark twain got a start uh as a um writer of the gold rush uh he was out there sort of uh immortalizing and mythologizing some of the early wild west gold rush people he became a travel writer after and that's what invented stand-up comedy a lot of stuff so i'd say roughing it which was his experience uh in the gold rush was important um for sci-fi i'm a huge all this huxley fan so uh brave new world for sure got it all right one uh non-crypto question and then i'll let you ask me a question uh you're smiling

so you already know what's coming i don't know i'm not gonna ask about alien pets but uh what do you think the probability is that aliens exist pretty low man you think it's pretty low wow okay wait explain well we i vehemently disagree but go ahead um look i i hope i hope so um you hope that they exist or don't exist they do yeah i'm a big sci-fi person and i don't think it's against us but um we have a pretty long reach out there we can hear and see a lot um and there are anomalies and weird stuff that happens but uh at this point i would imagine we would get some kind of sign now now it's possible right so i just haven't i would have to see a bit right now what uh we've talked about a couple people we've talked to a couple people about

this what about the harvard uh professor who swears that the uh the thing that entered the solar system was a uh spaceship yeah i mean if he's like i don't care if you believe me or not i swear yeah i saw that um yeah i'm i'm open to the idea i'm not i'm not saying i'm not uh discredulous of the idea i just would have to see something you know see something if they do exist how do we interact like like what the first interaction or the first interaction that we have man it's all math it's all math though the you can actually use the so that's what's so neat about some of the algorithms that have been found like shaw 256 this is a this is a jewel right this is a this is a rare piece of math that is able to do pretty magic things it does the same it

produces the same characters each the same number of characters each time um you know because these are little mathematical jewels that you find in in in the rough um they become easy to use to let's say reverse engineer communication and and so in that way they're great we would we would probably use bitcoin and say look we did this it's probably a step of evolution in every culture in every world right to come up with a bitcoin i'm blown away right now that we would communicate with them with math i did not expect you to go there that's the only way if you take math you can you can sort of abstract language not far after and that's fair you can use it to sort of reverse engineer how we would communicate so uh i'm not sure exactly how but you know some really

smart people could figure that out hopefully they come in one plus one equals two to them as well yeah yeah yeah that's the start that's the start that's the start all right what uh one question do you have for me hmm let's come up with one um you're way smarter than me which scares me that you're gonna ask me something no no no i'm not i'm trying to come up with something uh interesting and fun um Um, um, is, um, I'll make it a Twitter centric question. Of course. Um, is it crypto has to be crypto related?

No, it can be anything. Um, where would your business be without Twitter? Oh, that's a good question. Um, I have no clue. So on the investing side, uh, I've never thought about Twitter specifically helping sourcing deals, investing, et cetera. And only recently probably last like six months have, uh, founders like started verbalizing this idea of, oh man, if you're an investor, like you can, you know, go and you can basically drive awareness. you can drive acquisition and you can do all this stuff. Um, and it's interesting to think about, um, one of the things that, uh, I've spent a lot of time on over the, since, since I started looking at this is this idea that asset management businesses today, uh, I mean,

they're really antiquated, right. And, uh, and there's all kinds of people who are doing some interesting things, you know, everyone from like, uh, who Shaughnessy asset management, right. What Jim and Patrick are doing to, um, guys like co-venture and they've got some, you know, really, uh, unique things. Um, but the one thing that I don't see a lot of people, um, going after is this idea of how does the asset management business change if you have huge distribution channels, right. And that's a huge participation base that didn't exist before. Exactly. And so, um, I don't know what the answer to that is yet, uh, where this is kind of like a live experiment, frankly. Um, but, but, uh, we definitely see some, uh, some pretty interesting things. And I'll tell

you one anecdote that, uh, absolutely blew my mind. Uh, I won't say who it is, but, uh, I walked into a university endowment, um, with, uh, with one of our partners, Mark Yusko and Mark comes from the endowment world. Like he's a legend in that whole space. And then we walked in and everyone greeted him. And then the CIO walked in CIOs probably, I guess like early forties and he walks right over and he goes, what's up pump. And I was like, what, like, how do you know who I am? why did you just use that nickname whatever and he's like oh i listen to the podcast read blah blah whatever and uh and it was really fascinating for somebody that i'd never met who you know i think of as uh somebody that i could learn from and all stuff to already know so much

about the way that we think the way that we're approaching things things that we've done when we walk in the door right and so i think that you know those aspects are obviously very positive and helpful um the there's a downside though right like you know we make an investment and it goes to zero, uh, in venture, it's not a big deal. Like we expect a lot of the investments we do to go to zero. Well, when you get thrown to the Twitter trolls, right. They they'll hold it over your head, right. You know, you invest in this company and it went to zero. And so you've got to kind of detach the, uh, the benefits from the, the negative side. Um, and a lot of it's just managing the psychology of, you know, I'm probably not so worried about the anonymous person on

Twitter. Who's, you know, there there's one who literally has the name troll in their name. you kind of know why they're there right no but i i've i've watched it from a distance and i think what you guys have done is pretty neat um for that very reason exactly what you said that that it you know this is it is an antiquated business we saw downtown josh brown do a lot of stuff but this is still a little different like yeah he's awesome man he's great i mean we love you know he's always been a big help to coindesk and has come to our events and and i think he's a really smart and interesting person um you know but you know what i'm gonna call him out right now because he he recorded with us before josh i hope you're listening to this this guy told me he believes

in ghosts more than aliens i'll never forget i've seen those ghost pictures though he's onto something i saw one the other day that got me too i saw the you know those those personal cameras are catching people's ghosts all the time listen he was adamant about it yeah yeah yeah no man listen this has been awesome thank you so much for coming and we're big fans of everything guys you're doing at coindesk so we'll have to do it again in the future great awesome all right guys I appreciate listening to that episode. I enjoyed it and I hope you did too. Before we go, I want to remind you that it was brought to us by The Grove,

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