The Pomp Podcast - Spencer Dinwiddie, Professional NBA Player: Fighting the NBA for the Right to Tokenize a Contract

Episode Date: October 17, 2019

Spencer Dinwiddie is a professional NBA player currently playing for the Brooklyn Nets. He was previously selected in the 2nd round of the NBA draft after playing at the University of Colorado. In this conversation, Spencer and Anthony Pompliano discuss his childhood playing multiple sports, why he chose Colorado over Harvard after getting a 1400 on his SAT, what it's like being injured months before the NBA draft, what a day-in-the-life of an NBA player is like, what he plans to do during the tokenization of his NBA contract, why the NBA doesn't like it, and how he views the current free speech issues surrounding China and the NBA. BLOCKFI-----BlockFi allows you to keep your crypto, put it up as collateral, and receive a USD loan funded directly to your bank account. They do loans ranging from $2,000 to $10,000,000, and they're perfect for helping you reach your financial goals of all sizes. Visit BlockFi.com/Pomp to learn more about putting your crypto to work without having to sell it. CRYPTO.COM-----Crypto.com is a pioneering payment and cryptocurrency platform that seeks to accelerate the world's transition to cryptocurrency. With the vision of "cryptocurrency in every wallet", the Crypto.com App offers a full range of financial products with competitive pricing, well designed UX and high security. It is the best place to buy, sell and pay with crypto. COINMINE-----The Coinmine One is like an Xbox that turns your electricity into Bitcoin. You just plug it in, connect to wifi, and tap on the crypto you want. It’s so easy anyone can do it. Everything is controlled from the Coinmine mobile app and the Coinmine keeps getting better with over the air updates that add new coins, features and services to your Coinmine. Visit coinmine.com/pomp to get a Coinmine and earn crypto for powering a new world.

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to Off The Chain, simply the best podcast in crypto. Let's kick this thing off. Spencer Dinwiddie is a professional NBA player who is currently playing for the Brooklyn Nets. He was previously selected in the second round of the NBA draft after playing at the University of Colorado. In this conversation, we discuss Spencer's childhood playing multiple sports, why he chose Colorado over Harvard after getting a 1400 on his SATs, what is like being injured months before the NBA draft, what the day in the life of an NBA player is like, what he is planning to do during the tokenization of his NBA contract, why

the NBA doesn't like it, how he views the current free speech issues surrounding China and the NBA, especially because he plays for an owner who is more involved than others. And he finally settles the greatest of all time debate between Jordan, Kobe, and LeBron. I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you do as well. Skrt, skrt! Want to know who has the best URL? Crypto.com. That's right, Crypto.com. They're a crypto platform with one goal, motherf***ing mass adoption.

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me later. As many of you know, crypto investors store their digital assets on exchanges or in cold storage for long-term safekeeping. However, this strategy doesn't help them grow their investment holdings or build overall wealth. With the new BlockFi interest account, users can now securely store their Bitcoin or Ether at BlockFi and receive 6% annual interest paid monthly in cryptocurrency. 6% is an absurdly high rate. It's the best rate in the industry. I highly suggest you go check out BlockFi.com slash Pomp. Again, that's BlockFi.com slash Pomp to sign up and start earning crypto today. Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the

opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy but only as an expression of his opinion this podcast is for informational purposes only all right guys bang bang i've got spencer in the house uh man it's gonna be fun we're gonna talk a lot of sports we're gonna talk uh some crypto bitcoin uh somehow you're in a tron we'll get to that in a second and then uh you're you're uh you're one of the first athletes to try to tokenize the contract which i think a lot of people are paying attention to so thanks for coming to do this thank you all right um background every most people know you as an

nba player but you know you got a life before that so what'd you do uh before you got to the nba um i grew up in los angeles california uh my mom was a teacher she has a phd from usc he was professor there for a minute my dad's um into real estate my brother's a genius he may be the smartest in the family um you know went to school played basketball only played basketball played other sports too no i played i played football as well and i also skied so you skied yeah i know in la yeah man i was actually pretty good though it's crazy um not a great swimmer but i can ski a little bit all right wait hold on we gotta talk about this for a second it is high school um no no so so i never uh went competitively well really competitively in football and skiing because at

high school my dad uh made me choose made a decision yeah and and it was more like injury avoid injuries or more just focus yeah well like a little bit of both he was like you know if you want to really do this thing because you know i wasn't like highly ranked or anything i told my dad all the time like i want to be in the nba i want to be in the nba so he was like well if you really want to do it then focus on it and do it you know and and well i have to credit him obviously for for me being here of course because if he had a tore down my dreams at that stage like there's no way i'd have been here so him boosting me in that confidence i mean obviously it required me to give up football and skiing but you know i'm here so i don't know too many kids especially in

la that want to be uh skiers so basketball is a good choice you made it all right and then uh you went to colorado right yep all right well my final two choices uh for college were colorado and harvard um i chose colorado another basketball decision i want to go to pac-12 i was mad about you know feeling a little bit under recruited and being a west coast kid i wanted to i guess have some vengeance and and go to nba it worked right yeah it did all right so so one of the things I want to get out of the way right away is you got accepted to go to Harvard and got recruited there so you're not a dummy right talk a little bit about uh how how you did academically and kind of SAT and stuff yeah um you know going into my sophomore year in high school

I was uh trying to get into like some program or some program was like recruiting me so I had to take the SAT I got a 1400 out of 1600 so that uh carried me through uh through high school as a sophomore yeah like going into my sophomore year in high school and then um you know now when it came calling and I you know I had like a I think my GPA was only in like the mid threes at the end of the day because I kind of let it all go to the wayside when I started really rolling basketball wise I'm not gonna lie to you but um you know it was good enough to get into Harvard because of SAT and and you know the basketball stuff yeah well and part of this the reason I want to make sure that people understand this is uh it's not a surprise what you're trying to do

now because you're not just a single you know kind of faceted person around hey I play basketball there's plenty of people who do that those usually end up being the kind of horror stories i think of just like they don't have skills afterwards you had a lot of options right so you could have done a lot of different things um all right so you go to uh colorado and then you what you tore your acl i think it was right yeah uh acl both meniscuses and my mcl that was uh january 2014 and then uh you know i declared in april and went to the draft anyway all right because this is one of the uh the cooler parts of your whole story is uh i actually remember when you tore the acl i do not remember the whole story of then that's when you got drafted i thought a whole year had

gone by but when i was looking it up before we did this i was like wait a minute you tore it then declared and got drafted what second round second round 38 um yeah and i mean so we talked about not being highly ranked and all that stuff so i go there freshman year have a side year followed up sophomore year have a really good year um we go to the tournament um i was on draft boards you know they they suggest i come back so i was going to be like late first early second so you know the way we were playing we were about like 15th in the country we were rolling um junior was actually phenomenal at the time only had a couple losses and i was supposed to be a lottery pick all that stuff so it was working um unfortunately i got hurt but you know i mean i

I just, I was ready. I wanted to go. So some of it's got to be like mentality-wise. You're like, hey, I'm ready to go play in the NBA. I want to go play against these guys. Was there any piece of it, like you're already hurt. It wasn't like, hey, if I come back and I get hurt again, I just won't get, you know, there's the possibility of like

falling further and further or potentially not getting drafted at some point? Or was it just, it was more offensive and like, hey, I want to go play. Let's go do this. Yeah, it was more offensive. Just from my mindset, right? Like when I started attacking recovery and they started saying like, you know, I was recovering well and all those other things. That's when I really was like, okay, I can really do this.

I can really declare, you know. Prior to that, you know, I heard all the doom and gloom stuff because I wasn't supposed to play for a year. You know, it wasn't just ACL. It was both meniscus and MCL. You know, they're over here like, hey, look, your meniscus was pretty, like, trash. So this could get kind of dicey. Like, I don't know exactly what's going to happen.

So in the midst of that fear, that's when I was more so thinking about coming back to school and trying to, you know, at the very least graduate and all that stuff. But, you know, I had a conversation with my mom. I think it was the morning. It might have been the second day after I got hurt. You know, I woke up, and I was actually crying. And I talked to her. And this should be a Nike commercial, honestly, even though I'm not with Nike.

But, you know, I was talking to her, and I was like, Ma, like, you know, like why this happened, like all this stuff. Like, you know, I still want to go to the NBA. and she's like you know like relax and I'm like what and she's like what do you want to do I was like mom I want to go to the league she's like no Spencer like what do you want to do so I want to go to the league she said then do it just like that then do it I'm crying you know I'm kind of in my feelings right now I'm a what 20 year old kid I think at the time who just apparently had his dreams taken away and so I'm tripping and she's just like like why like why

like bro are you as good as you think you are then do it it's funny how uh mom specifically they know when to kind of be soft and and you know sharpen that or uh uh dull the edge a little bit but then the exact opposite every once in a while they're like hey get your shit together let's go and that's the funniest part my dad is always like on me yeah and in that moment he was the soft one he was like i'm sorry man like i'm so sorry you got hurt you're gonna be okay mom was like boy if you don't just do it like are you good and i was like yes she's like bingo it's crazy and so uh what were you being told going into the draft in terms of hey you're hurt you're recovering nicely but was there an understanding that you could fall completely out of the draft

to the later round like what was no no no um you pretty much knew you're gonna be yeah first second round once we kind of cleared the first couple hurdles of like recovering it was like okay he's gonna be fine we don't know necessarily whether it's seven months eight months ten months whatever but we know he's gonna be fine then it was more so like okay he's he's at worst like mid-second okay so it was like 45 or so was like like how far they thought like i was gonna fall and so i was like if i'm okay with that and i'm the player i think i am and i think i can play my way into you know better prospects after i'm already in the league then let's go let's go yeah well and the difference between let's call it 45 and top 10 pick is what money oh shoot quite a bit yeah

because when i came into the league the minimum was still around like five or six hundred thousand it wasn't like 1.5 like it is now so you know a top 10 pick probably was in the two and a half three million range and my minimum was probably you know six hundred thousand something like that so okay quite a big difference but you know the benefit was and obviously in trying to be optimistic if i have a one or two year deal and i play well then i get to you know my next contract quicker whereas you know a first round pick is going to be four or five years until they get to their next contract for sure um at what point after the league you know do you come across bitcoin crypto blockchain like it's just such like a especially because you didn't just do it you

know yesterday right so so it's kind of been something that you've been looking at like how does that happen so i actually have a friend in finance okay um works at a bank he told me about it in 2014 early he told me about it yeah right when i got drafted he was like you need to put some of your money in bitcoin i'm like no way right when i got drafted the problem is i'm listening to all these horror stories i'm like i'm a second round pick i've only been in the one or two years yep i i can't i can't bro you know um i wish i had him but now he's probably doing his victory lap right no he definitely is so uh circle back to about 2017 um when i get back uh to the nets you know i've already made or not get back to this but get to the nets all right so

uh because you went you got drafted by the pistons yeah then went bulls then nets um so bulls was only for a cup of coffee like it was literally a cup of coffee yeah no i was only at the bulls for like a hot second like it was just there to say hi that's it take a quick instagram in the stadium i took a couple snapshots in a jersey and then i was gone um but yeah so basically it's two years in detroit and then three years in brooklyn it's pretty much it breaks down pretty evenly like that got it but yeah so i already had a little bit of money and then you know being in the d league for that kind of or like chicago d league experience that summer in 2017 kind of you know looking at other stuff and and branching out and expanding my mind because it's like well

shoot i'm out the league like i have to you know not just you know i mean i had full faith and confidence i was getting back in but you just kind of take time to you know expand your mind a little bit even kind of be a little more focused on your family and all those other things and so that's when you know i came back across it had a couple conversations with my guy he was like look do it so i was fortunate enough to catch you know most of 17 yeah i caught the bull run so that's when it was like what but at this time i still don't understand you know i'm just i'm just listening and so you know he tells me about bitcoin i look up a couple of other like top 10 top 25 the reason why i got into tron right so um no i'm just gonna keep it all right let's go so it's like oh the

ceo is justin's son he's uh tied to jack ma and then so i know about ali bob and stuff i'm like if he's tied to Jack Ma. Yep. And remember, at this time, we're talking about like Vegas gambling money. We're talking about several thousand dollars. We're not talking about like... It's not a true investment.

You know that you're speculating. Yeah, this is speculating at the time. And this is why, you know, even though I caught the Bitcoin bull run, it's not like it changed my life forever. It was, I'm getting into it. I'm learning about it. And so, you know, when the bull run happens

and the subsequent crash, you know, you start reading about like, how does the market swing this much beyond the fact that it's in its infant stages? Like, I want to know why. But then also, even when it does crash, why is there still over $200 billion in here? Why are people still in this? What does it truly mean?

What is the technology behind it? And that's when you start reading about it. That's when you start understanding blockchain. That's when you're like, oh, I understand why Bitcoin is king now, you know, in terms of like censorship resistance and all those other things. And so, you know, then it's like, wait a second. DeFi is a real thing. This can open up a completely new world. And that's when all of this starts to begin.

That's how it all starts. Well, I forget who said this, and I should remember it because I want to give them credit for it, but they said, I came for the money, and I stayed for the money. But they're saying, like, I came basically from a capitalistic, I wanted to get rich, and I was greedy. But then when I learned what money really was, I learned what Bitcoin was, like, that's why I stayed, right? And so the price does bring a huge influx of people in, and gets them to pay attention. Yeah, and that's, you know, I'd be lying if I told you that wasn't part of, like, my journey and my story. It's just that, like, you know, now once you're in it, now once you read about it and all that other stuff, you're like, whoa.

For sure. This is real. This is something that's different. What's the general sentiment within the league of, like, crypto, right? So Bitcoin, Ethereum, like that type of stuff that we would consider more the larger cap stuff? Crypto in the league in a lot of ways is Bitcoin. Like, if you say cryptocurrency, it's just Bitcoin. People don't really understand, you know, the difference.

Other than Kobe speaking at the Tron conference. yeah i mean you know probably got paid to do it so of course that's fine yeah listen here's the way i look at it is uh if you go down the line i could think of a lot of celebrities athletes musicians etc who have done a whole variation of them right yeah they're getting paid for it's the same thing just like it's a brand like everything else um all right so most people are interested in bitcoin specifically uh and is this like hey i talked to my financial advisor and we're building a portfolio of assets and like we got a little bit of bitcoin in there or is this more of like a my financial advisor told me i'm crazy for doing

this but i got some like you know play money and i'm doing it with the play money not with the financial advisor uh kind of money oh no like so that excuse me that's the thing when i sit down with my like business managers and stuff like i tell them you know what yeah what i what i personally have a passion for and to me that's predominantly bitcoin and real estate so i'm like hey guys like you know i understand like where like some of this other stuff is but these are like the two areas of focus that i really believe in so like let's drive yeah let's let's drive like my capital towards these areas yep you know what i mean so you know um obviously real estate is not going anywhere you know the market can go up and down all that stuff just like any other market

but you know people are going to need places to live we're not making any more land i'm a big believer in it so you know it's something that you're interested in it sounds like and you understand yeah right so it's like hey look i'd rather go do that than to speculate on some stocks that i have no clue about like that actually may be more risky than something i understand there you go and so those are those are two areas that i'm uh predominantly focused on besides like the entrepreneur uh endeavors but yeah predominantly just from a personal perspective real estate bitcoin so one of the things that uh i've had the fortunate kind of experience to learn from a lot of these guys is uh what i'll just call like personal finance within professional sports and

it's uh you hear the horror stories right hey guys go broke and a lot of stuff but um there's even i think it's a intersect or intersection capital uh you know they made a list of like the 50 things that athletes who stay rich made yeah right and i think i heard patrick o'shaughnessy talking about this with uh with one of the guys and it's things like hey they got rims that are 22 or less right you know yeah they wear condoms right like like the guy had this whole list and And it's a list of not don't do this. It's a list of do this, right? And kind of the positive affirmation and the like, hey, here's the playbook rather than like don't do this other stuff.

Because by nature, athletes will, oh, I can't do something. You're not looking. Right? And so do you feel like that's a lot of the conversation in the locker room is around finance, investments, entrepreneurs, like all that kind of stuff? Or is it just more sports, music, culture, and there's not so much of the finance and business? I would say over the last, well, I've only been in the league for five years, but I would say even in that five years you've seen more of a shift and the guys being more open about finances,

what they feel about different markets, what they're exploring. I mean, I think guys are still very scared about cryptocurrency in general, which is understandable due to the crash and them not understanding like blockchain and stuff like that. But, you know, talking about real estate or talking about VC, which is very in vogue right now, is definitely popping up in the locker rooms for sure. Is there a competition on who got into what deal?

like hey man i dropped 20 on you last night and i also got an uber before you nah nah not well not that i've heard i mean maybe maybe there's some but not that i know all right um and before we get into some of the tokenized contract stuff like just walk us through what is a normal day in season look for you guys um because i don't think people really understand like how uh in depth some of this is that that you've got to do in order to be ready to play oh boy um you know monday through sunday like that doesn't exist during season there's three different types of days okay there's practice day okay game day and then like your light workout day okay that's it i didn't hear a rest day yeah no so that is your rest day like the light workout

day is your rest day that's when you go in you know maybe you get like an hour's worth of a lift or some shots and you know you get a good stretch in hit the sauna or something like that and then you're out in two three hours or something like that that's that's your rest day but you know a practice day i mean you know practicing will start at 10 you got to be there by 8 30 to eat you know then you're going to have like your correctives that you have to do in the weight room practice goes from 10 to 12 30 then you got you know 12 30 to 1 12 30 to 115 a lift then you're going to do like your treatment which is going to take you to 230 245 then you know you're going to have to do your recovery which is going to involve like cold tub and whatnot so you you probably you probably

in there from it's almost a nine to five you're in there from 8 30 to four you know roughly so and you're not sitting at a desk right no no you're not sitting at a desk like this this involves running jumping playing basketball all that all that good stuff lifting weights like etc so you know it's a it's a it's a very involved job like it's uh you know it's it's fun because it's our our dreams and so you know it's it's different in that capacity from us enjoying it especially like our reward being the games and being able to compete and do things that we love but like people thinking that we just kind of lay in bed all day and then you know show up and drop 20 and then go home and kick it like that's that's not it's not how it is what about game day um game

day so i've been fortunate enough for the last like year or so with the brooklyn nets they've been pretty light on shoot arounds but usually you kind of have this light practice of sorts It's called a shoot around, you know, from 10 to 1130 or so in the morning. And then you show back up to the gym probably five o'clock for a 730 game. You have one of those kind of light lifts, 20 minutes or so. Another round of shooting for about 30 minutes. And then you have another like treatment round for another 30 minutes. So it's about an hour and a half worth of work that you put in prior to the game.

Yeah. And then you play the game. And after the game, you know, depending upon whether you're injured or whether you're working on something specific or if you didn't play, then you have conditioning, right? So let's say you normally play 25, 30 minutes, but that night you played 10, they may make you run on the treadmill for the other 15, 20 that you didn't play. Yeah, so it's pretty involved. It's not a joke.

And they're, like, data-driven on all this stuff and really paying attention to it. Oh, yeah, they track, you know, loads and all that stuff. They have, like, metrics for it. There's second spectrum in the arenas, like the cameras track, like how many miles are ran um they approximate that low based upon like your your force input into the ground and how you run specifically is it oh yeah like this crazy there yeah so when people try to think that this is just like oh going in the backyard yeah like it's nothing like that and so so it's all data analytics driven like this is a business you know if

if nba is pulling in billions of dollars of revenue right and and the asset is the one driving that that force then they're going to try to know every single piece they can about that specific player specific person um just like any other big business yeah because i remember i think it was uh maybe end of maybe this beginning of the preseason this year or maybe last year something uh the video james harden working out after the game right and it was like hey the dude just you know dropped 40 points or whatever and now he's in the gym and and it wasn't like he was stretching right like he was working out and uh and so i guess i never realized how common that is oh yeah oh yeah no that's uh that's that's that's not out of the ordinary all right and the last question

on this uh i just read an article about uh sleep deprivation and they're basically talking about you know the nfl has cte and concussions and all this kind of stuff 10 years ago nobody talked about now has kind of become the thing that everyone's focused on uh and this article was like a two-year study uh where they were showing like look man these nba players are not sleeping what you think they're not getting eight nine ten hours of sleep they're you know getting on the game at 11 they get on a flight at 12 30 they land at two they you know get to the hotel by three but when are they sleeping yeah and that's for 82 games right two games in like a 220 day period or something like that so the real problem yeah no for sure what what do players do to try to get

over that or kind of you got to be a big napper you know or you have to just be a guy that is fine with that you know there are some guys that are fine with four hours of sleep and that's they're just one of those highly functioning people that does that consistently i myself am not that guy i get cranky i get grumpy all those things so you know i'm gonna get my nap during the afternoon got it all right because i think what kobe used to do the everyday man or whatever right where you sleep like an hour and a half then like an hour then an hour it's like some crazy shit i've heard all types of crazy kobe stories so like you gotta ask him on that one the only two stories i got for you that that just are seared in my brain is uh he called the trainer

at like 3 30 went trainer went home after the workout and then came back at 10 or 11 and was like damn kobe got here early he was like i never left oh the olympics one yeah that was true that was and then the other one is uh it was uh jason williams uh was at a uh at a game the pre-game shoot around and he got there and kobe wouldn't leave the court until jason williams left and jason was like hey man why'd you why were you there for so long he's like i wouldn't leave until you left yeah so it's just it's a mentality nah he's yeah he's wired different like there's a lot of crazy dudes in the league in terms of that competitive nature but like he's next level yeah he's a little different he's all over instagram now there's like 12 year old or 13 year old

daughters basketball game being a dad all right so uh let's get into uh tokenizing the contract right um let's for before we contact about what you're doing let's just go over the mechanics of how nba contracts work so um what's the structure like guaranteed non-guaranteed and then how do most players uh get paid is it a per game is it once a week twice a week you know how does it actually work from a mechanic standpoint yeah so every contract kind of follows this this uniform it's called a uniform player contract right okay um you tend to get paid by monthly so you know first and 15th um over a 24 month period that can vary you know some guys can get it um as low as like a six month sometimes you can get certain advances or whatever and then sometimes you can

have like different incentives and into a contract whether you you know shoot a certain percentage or whatever but all those things are very individual to that player and so um you know the uniform player contract just has like the standard protections right in terms of like the guarantees etc and then you know you kind of write in anything that you know disputes those guarantees so it's a player option or team option or something like that right but typically uh you know if you have you know that set guaranteed contract and you know whether it's death disability or injury or whatever then you're you're covered so that's uh you know the biggest difference between us and like football right we're like you know once once my contract is good for that year or two years or

whatever um if i go outside and get hit by a bus like you know my family's at least gonna be good right yeah i won't be but yeah my family will be got it and after you sign the contract right so Most players, they've got an agent, agent negotiates the contract, you got your bank or whatever, right? Those contracts are getting paid to you personally, to like an LLC, like how do most players mechanically engage with the contract? Are they signing it personally or is it through some sort of like legal structure? Yeah, so you can do it.

Or maybe it's different. Well, you can technically do it either way, right? It's as long as what the nets are paying to is considered to be you. Got it, okay. If it's you or a pass-through entity, right, that you wholly own or whatever, then it's fine, right? Yeah, it's like you can't send it to, like, a corporation that is, like, split or something of that nature or, like, send it to this person. You and I can't start a company and you sign a contract and do that thing. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

So that's the whole big thing about assignment, right? As long as they're paying you, then that's it. And that's why then, obviously, the buck then stops after that. Yep, got it. All right. And so at what point do you come up with this, frankly, probably crazy idea at first that becomes reality, but you're going to tokenize the contract? What did that mean to you? What was the idea, genesis, et cetera?

You know, I've actually been on kind of a journey of like intellectual property rights, brand, fan engagement, like all those things in terms of like recognizing what our power is as the asset, right? Like, if you look at whatever permutation of this you want to look at it, right, whether it's, you know, the NBA or other big brands that, you know, use our likeness for whatever it is, typically speaking, and it's a little bit different with, like, a Nike, obviously, because they have their own brand status and their own product that they kind of really push, and they're a billion-dollar company on their own, regardless of LeBron James. But in the NBA sense, right, like, they're a broker. You know, the fan determines the value, but the players are what bring the value. They're the asset. it all right so this is a really important concept because you said this and i've never heard anyone describe it this way that nba is a broker between the fans and the player yeah their their job is to obviously bring the fans um and the players closer together make their

interactions as seamless and easy as possible and they do a phenomenal job of it right like one of the best leagues in the world if you look at it globally i mean we're second to soccer i believe right now wow i'm like growing in terms of like i know the nfl still brings in like obviously uh super high amount of revenue because they can have a hundred thousand plus fans and we can only have like you know 10 to 20 in an arena but in terms of just kind of the growth and like expanding globally and engaging in those other markets and bases like i believe nba is now second to soccer in terms of it's like you know growth in its projections so that makes sense though yeah doing doing a phenomenal job right but at the end of the day the inherent value is you know the

players it's the asset right like if you drop uh the brooklyn nets logo in the middle of the street right here like you know people might stop they might look they might go oh that's that's weird right if you drop lebron james or kevin durant or kyrie irving in the middle of this street right here or spencer you know i get a couple i get a couple people but you know you drop one of those people out there there's a flock if you tell if you tell people on social media hey they're going to be playing a basketball game lebron's going to play a basketball game or kd is going to play a one-on-one game in the middle of the street right here you'll get thousands and thousands of cops have to come the cops have to come yeah so that's where the value is you know and so any asset right

has its own asset class and then that's kind of the the real genesis of this whole thing you know and and we just like an apple or just like a you know uh whatever other stock or company or whatever can kind of set the terms of what they feel their valuation is obviously people kind of you know rate them and have a theoretical value attached to them because of the the revenue that they generate and the products that they build etc and it's much the same way with us right we have a somewhat of a value right like when you look at us you can and you look at our contracts you look at you know our endorsement deals or whatever you say okay he's roughly in the 40 million dollar range he's roughly in the 50 million dollar range or or whatever it is it there there

really is no difference when you when you look at it in that in that manner and so as me the company me spencer me the asset i can offer whatever product i want to my fans based upon whatever i feel my value is yep and it's and it's on them to determine the market it's not an nba to determine the markets on them right if i offer a bs product then they won't buy it right like it's it's really that simple it's kind of the same way like i like i told you uh before if i went to the bank right now and told them you know everybody kind of knows what my contract is i don't know if you know via nba rules i can say the exact number um if i go to the bank right now park yeah ballpark in the 30s okay so if i go uh to a bank right now from a by the way i got those out there from a skier in la

to $30 million, you're doing all right. Go ahead. Thank you, brother. Yeah, no, but if I go to a bank right now and I'm saying, hey, guys, I want to buy a $100 million house, they're going to look at me and say, look, you're crazy.

Your contract, after we take out taxes and do all this other stuff, there's no way. You just want the money. Yeah, you want the money. It's impossible. But if I say I want to buy a $5 million house, they'll be like, okay, that makes sense.

You could probably pay it off in a couple years if you so chose. Or you could carry the mortgage 30 years if you wanted. It would completely be up to you. And it's very much the same way. Like I said, terms for a product that I'm willing to offer as Spencer Dinwiddie, the asset. And either fans will say, hey, we like those terms. They're favorable.

Or they'll say, no, we don't think those terms are favorable. And they won't buy in. And then the asset or the product, rather, either succeeds or fails based upon that right there. It really has nothing to do with the league, which is why, you know, it was so disappointing to hear their stance. All right, hold on. Just so those who haven't been paying attention, you basically said, all right, I'm going to be, I think it's the first athlete, right, And when the four major professional sports to tokenize my contract, uh, and the mechanism in which you're going to do that is, uh, you're going to play, you have a guaranteed contract.

Yeah. Right. And so as long as you don't die, you're getting paid. Right. For the most part, the league is going to pay a pass through entity that you have. Yeah. Right. Pay me.

Yeah. They're going to pay you. And then what you do with your money is up to you. Bingo. And what you said to me, uh, which just made it clear to me was they don't tell you what car to buy yeah they don't tell you what house to buy yeah they frankly don't tell you what what casino to go gamble at if you want to do that you can do whatever you want with your money exactly right and what you've done is you've structured a offering yeah right that allows fans to enjoy

the product that you're presenting exactly and your point is whatever the terms of the that product are the fans are going to determine whether they agree with the terms exactly they're going to determine whether it's favorable so if i if i sit here and say you know what i'm not going to give you any interest if they said cool then that would be on them right if i say hey i'm gonna give you a little bit of interest or a lot of interest or i'm gonna set this variable rate or i'm gonna say like hey we should do it this way as long as the fans determine that the market or that the the product is uh desirable desirable yeah then they'll buy it you know and if i want to set those terms the way i want to set those terms then i'm fine with it clearly because i

set the terms right because i am the company right that or the personal entity that set those terms so really that's what that's that's like i said the most frustrating part about it because it really has nothing to do with them me sitting down and saying hey nba this is what i want to do was merely out of courtesy because i view it as something that can be beneficial if we partner i view it as something that if the nba wants to be a part of it it could offer a ton of benefit for them because every owner in the nba they want a hundred percent you know uh control over management decisions etc they want all of that power but they want 51 capital control and exposure there's no way you go to another billionaire and tell them that there's no way you sell 49 of the

team to a billionaire and tell them that you can't have any control you can't do anything you can't like you can't decide what player we get you can't have one of your guys on the executive board nothing they don't go for that or they go for it and then they try to institute some type of take over later like that's yeah that's it's just one of the two ways it's going to happen so when you announced this you had already talked to the league or no no so when i when i had announced this the very first time i had talked to the players association yep player association was cool with it and they thought it was a good idea generally okay with it yeah you know you're not you're not doing anything wrong boom and then um the conversation with the league obviously

we're scheduled to start after the player association we talked about it a little bit well technically it got leaked and so that's kind of what shifted timelines a little bit um but yeah i mean it was what was their reaction though because the league was not as static about no they just said no you know and then i was like but why and they were like well you can't give your contract to fans i was like that's not what i'm doing yep and then i was like so why can't i do it and they just said no and i was like that kind of um there's very few times in life where grown men get to know with no explanation and it's usually when they were younger yeah so their parents their teachers like that's that's exactly that's exactly how it felt it felt like you know

they were trying to be my father or my or my teacher or something and it's no because i said no and i'm just simply sitting there saying why like if you can explain to me why i cannot do it if you can explain to me legally why this is wrong then i will drop everything right now i promise you i don't want to go to war with you you guys are great at what you do i've loved my time being a partner with the nba and playing in the nba i'm not going to try to deliberately cut my career short or anger you guys to take action against me so if you guys can tell me why i'll stop but if you guys are just gonna sit here and tell me no like i'm a child and and you know get on the phone just tell me like i don't know i don't want to put words in your mouth but would it be fair

to categorize your approach as trying to create a win-win between well really it's a win for the fans it's a win for you it's a win for the league it's a win for the team like everybody it really aligns interest in a very unique way and it sounds like the league's reaction of just kind of no which because i think that's what most fans have gotten from the media right it's just the league said no uh if there's not the explanation then it kind of leaves everyone asking like why don't you guys like this exactly and that's the thing like if you look at it right so the nba right now the biggest thing that is going to be at a premium not just this year but years going forward is fan engagement and getting people to continue to watch tv right because they

signed the historic tv deal but technically like on tv viewership is down right like oh interesting okay in terms of like the match they wanted to hit and stuff like that now we're still growing we're still doing great things making a bunch of money all that good stuff right but just looking at the tv deal compared to how people are consuming media because people are getting highlights and small clips here and subscribing to this over here and doing all these things so it's not affecting the nba necessarily in terms of the total bottom line but it's affecting some of the tv companies so they're a little bit upset about it right so if you can continue to drive fan engagement it only continues to help you, right?

And this, whether it's personal player fan engagement or team fan engagement from them being able to own fractionalized shares of the team, you're getting fans to feel a part of your global system, your global entity, right? So there is no downside for the NBA because the fans can't sue you, but they are now more entrenched in the NBA now.

And then the other two pieces, the fan, right? Depending upon the offering that you choose to participate in, there may not be much downside, if any, right? The way we structured mine was super safe. Now, we don't know how much the fan can make in terms of interest. We will see, like, based upon, you know, revenue that I can generate. But the protections are there, so that's an extremely safe offering. Skrt, skrt.

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yeah like there's regulatory oversight right in the sense of you can't just go do this without anyone paying attention exactly and part of that regulatory oversight is transparency clarity of the you know kind of structure like there's more thought into this than like you sitting at home and just being like let me just fire off a tweet and like one thousand percent one thousand percent we spent just about 10 months building this you know we we put it on blockchain for a reason besides the transparency and also cutting fees just in terms of like the scalability of where we're trying to go in terms of creating an asset class obviously it makes sense um i mean like i said we reg d you know we specifically went that way because and with accredited investors first

we wanted to go reg a plus we wanted to shrink every token down to a dollar and and you know make it you know accessible for everybody but we understood the complications with that and so you know we literally took every single like step that you could possibly take to be as careful as possible and then when it was time to package it and take it to the table and say hey guys we found something that is not only beneficial for you guys we found something that's beneficial for the fans and we even found something that's beneficial for the players right which is another point that you know to touch on there's a way and when you do things like this that you can immediately lock money so you can create reserves or you can create trust etc right so you can make sure that a guy

doesn't spend money if you have a guy that's let's say a financial advisor comes doesn't say hey i have a guy that's he's shown over the first three years he's not very fiscally responsible and now he's got a five-year deal let's say it's 50 million or something right i want to lock 40 of that away right now i'll give him 10 he can spend it whatever but we're going to lock 40 and we're going to make sure that he can only spend the interest on this 40 for the next 15 years you can do that yeah well it goes back to the kind of principles of defy or bitcoin and kind of software you know i call like algorithmic finance or automated finances you can code things in that no matter no matter how upset you get no matter how you know uh desperate you are

no matter how drunk you get all these different things doesn't matter the software it has no it's not gonna listen there you go and and the interest just kicks it out to you and as you make interest you get to spend that money but you know that through hell or high water unless there's like some catastrophic event that money is not unlocking you are never going to go broke you are fine it's kind of like um so uh people who listen to podcasts know my favorite basketball player growing up was alan iverson okay right he just hit people with a crossover and you know you're just like hey man that's real right yeah uh and he is actually one of the uh the negative side effects of being a professional athlete right he's gone broke for all intents and purposes but

the saving grace he has is one of the contracts he signed i think with reebok right i think it's like when he turns 55 it's gonna unlock you know 30 35 million bucks whatever it is it's a similar mechanism now we don't know you know does he get leverage you know there's all these kind of things that could have happened but that mechanism of there is almost like a safety net for him right where he had money locked away till a certain time period and it was far enough out where like he's probably much more mature now than he was when he was in his 20s and 30s um that's been happening for a long time you know bobby bonilla uh but he's still getting paid by the man like 20 years later yeah yeah and and there's it just opens up a completely different um line of flexibility to

these players that can essentially do whatever they want you know with their money and can have all these uh areas to be responsible and to do different things you know obviously with mine i'm putting a lot in in bitcoin and i'm also putting some in gold too to kind of show like the differences between you know quote-unquote digital gold and physical gold and all that stuff but that's a very personal thing but yeah like you i feel like what we created something that literally everybody can win and that is like by far the most disappointing part about the the no without a reason because if you said okay this party is going to get screwed or this is exactly why we don't want to do it and you're violating these terms here or something like that then we

would gladly shut it down yeah if it was a more logical kind of understandable response then you'd be amenable to so one thing that i think is important for this is for folks who haven't spent a lot of time this isn't a new concept right what i mean by that is um i'll throw a couple data points out so the green bay packers part of the team is owned by the fans yeah right the nb the nfl actually changed the rules after they did this because they didn't want everyone to go do it um you then go to something like i think it's called fan fan text or something right where you could buy quote unquote stock but it wasn't stock in the contract it was more stock in the players future earnings and i think arian foster was a huge uh user of that yeah then you

go to sacramento kings they just announced that uh it's a utility token or kind of a fan loyalty type thing so you had kind of previous you know revenue share or stock-based ownership in either teams or players and now you're starting to see tokens it sounds to me right and and you haven't said this to me but i'm going to throw it out there there may be two sets of rules right of like the teams and the things that the accrue value to the league and the owners etc get a little bit different treatment than the players you're looking at me weird like maybe we shouldn't be going here but i mean um the the league is known to do what's best for them at at the end of the day right every every league does that every league does that right nfl protect the

shield the whole thing yeah that's that's that's you know what a good broker does man that's what they do um i mean it's it's crazy to see though them them say no so adamantly and then you know the sacramento kings launch a utility token like the next week i was like wow that's that's interesting folks like that's really really really interesting um the reason why we didn't do it um similar to fantex or in the arian foster model um two reasons um when you ipo on like new york stock exchange or anything like that usually get ate up in fees so you have to have a really large contract to do something like that or you have to have a basket of players to do it to kind of make it work um or be raising a lot of money right then also you know it tends to lack liquidity because

of what they're trading against you know our whole idea in terms of creating this uh asset class and obviously we all know the ease of like moving tokens and the tradability of tokens and stuff like that now there is a one-year lockup because of the you know accredited investors and security tokens reg d all that but you know we envision a situation where you know almost akin to i guess real fantasy sports right you could trade a spencer for a kairi for a kd for a jared allen for a you know zan and musa for a charis levert for you know you could do that and well and you can almost like so this is getting into kind of the future of where this can go right is let's say that we can get over some of the the speed bumps here in the short term um fantasy sports

gonna be a real thing right sports betting gonna be a real thing in the united states it's already moving that way uh i think the promise of whether security tokens tokenization all stuff right you know take real estate um there's been plenty of people who have pitched oh you could you know go long soho short brooklyn right or you know vice versa whatever and so you can build these really unique kind of derivative products and all this kind of stuff what you're talking about is like today most fantasy sports is like you're either on my roster or you're not exactly right and it's and it's a binary thing yeah but maybe actually what i want to do is i want to own 20 of your performance this week right and i want to own 40 of somebody else and you start kind of creating

these different things where literally maybe i want to go short point uh point guards this year because the league changed the rules and they're gonna score less points right or whatever it is there you go again it's all about engagement and and my guess is considering the way that the league and Adam Silver took the approach of like, hey, we want 1% of all the sports betting, they'll figure out a way to make money on it too. For sure. But that's the reason why I'm saying,

I came and sat down at the table. I came and said, here's what we're doing. If you tell me why I can't do it, then I'll stop. But if you say like, hey, let's find a way to do this right, I'm here. You're open-minded and you're being innovative. Yeah, if there's something that you tell me right now that you're like, you know what,

we'll let you you know pass go if we can look over the terms of deals prior to them going out so we make sure that you know it checks all the boxes and this and a third i say cool yep right like at the end of the day my goal is to partner my goal is to make this a win win win so let's let's do it i'm like i said the the disappointing piece was the no with no cause no you know answer no whatever it was just no you know but but you're obviously an extremely bright individual so and just talking about those uh practice can come next and those derivatives etc and and the different niche things that can come after this it's a whole new world of business that the nba can capitalize on right it's not something that you know i'm going to be able to do i'm clearly just defying

the class and kind of showing guys how to set terms for you know what they feel is uh uh beneficial are for them and engaging in their fan base there's going to be a different whole crop of businesses that are born on top of this that capitalize on the actual use of the tokens like even the exchanges are going to try to get into this right you're going to have the the you know what are the biggest exchanges binance gemini those guys like you're going to have those type of people trying to you know trade these in some capacity when they get to securities and stuff off of utilities like it's gonna it's gonna turn to something completely different i'll even take get further and say what happens when i can buy a token that you offer and then i can exchange it

at the nba store for your jersey there you go right and there's some sort of price mechanism that actually the nba comes out more on top right you come out on top and i get the jersey that i wanted you know and you start playing this whole game and it's like actually yeah like like there's a world where this all can exist right uh what's been the uh the response to the sentiment from the players in the nba knowing that you're kind of doing this oh yeah no see that's the thing after i after it leaked and after you know we've had some of the stories like the players have been like yeah how can i do that oh my god yeah like how can we how can we do that and i'm like guys listen like i'm gonna fight this fight let me be the pioneer let's not get the whole league yeah

exactly like let's let's get through this and then you know when we get through this i'll give you guys the bible to do it like all the information we gathered i'll pass it and you guys can do whatever you want because i gotta imagine that once they see it it's similar to once the genie was out of the bottle everyone's like you know they get 3 000 tokens right same thing here i think is once people realize here's the potential here's how it works like yes it is legal from regulatory standpoint the fans are interested you know all this kind of stuff everyone's gonna want to do it exactly right exactly um all right we got to talk about an nba in china so uh i'll caveat this whole thing with uh there's no situation in the world that

is binary black and white there are no perfect answers so um i just want to ask you some open ended questions you kind of run with them as you will um first what's the take from the players in terms of just like what's going on and kind of the position that you guys have been put in yeah um i would say the toughest part about being a player in the situation was just kind of feeling caught in the middle that was that was really it because we you know we being the nets and the lakers were there yeah okay so hold on i should have started with let me just for those that don't know uh daryl morey who's the gm of the rockets and is a huge cryptocurrency fan uh for those that don't know um he tweeted out uh on twitter saying just like you know stand with the people

of hong kong it was some kind of pro or supportive tweet of the people of hong kong and he was it seemed like at least externally being more like pro-democracy right and pro-free speech etc Gambia had teams in China playing, and there was immediate backlash, really across the world, but specifically in China. And so when it first breaks, what's kind of this, was it just like, oh, there's this thing going on, or was it immediate, like, hey, it's going to be a big deal? Yeah, it was more so like immediately it was going to be a big deal, especially once the tweet got deleted and you start hearing all these different things pop up. and you know for the players because it was a fight that we were never trying to either a fight or to be in that's why it was so awkward you know i mean because we were just kind of in china and we're like so uh whatever you know what are we what are we supposed to do guys play basketball

yeah like uh we were just we just came here to play basketball and say hi to the fans and stuff like that was it was that simple um so yeah it was it was just difficult from that standpoint just kind of just being literally caught in the middle and it not being something that we did and then you and your teammates specifically have kind of a an additional level of complexity in that uh the owner of the nets is one of the co-founders of alibaba and um i was pretty impressed uh he responded right and i was pretty impressed with the level of detail that he went through to explain a perspective that i don't think a lot of western americans understand right so kind of just how did that kind of play into it on top of just hey i'm an nba player but then like

literally i play for a team that probably understands is at a different level than all the other teams in the league yeah um you know joe's a phenomenal dude he's uh he's been my favorite team owner to interact with so far um that's that's my guy uh and you know actually it was an educational process for our at minimum our team right because we did have a chance to sit down and talk to joe and he kind of debriefed us on the situation and the severity and it was just honest with you know what was going on and his personal opinion and and why he wrote you know the letter that he wrote which uh we all respected and and like i said we gained knowledge from it and um you know he he really kind of broke down why it was uh you know a sensitive topic for

you know the uh the country yeah and and the part to me um i told you just beforehand that like and this is my personal perspective this is not spencer's perspective uh that i felt was unfair and the whole situation was uh the press conferences where players i didn't see a video of you getting kind of ambushed but i saw some other players that they've got to be there right you know the whole marshall lunch i'm only here so i don't get fined they're sitting up there and reporters granted they're just trying to do their job right so they're asking questions but the questions are uh almost like i know i got you trapped i know you got a microphone in front of you and i'm going to try to elicit you to say yeah just things that'll catch headlines yeah

just felt a little uh unfair i think to the players for sure for sure i mean i i would say in general we we find ourselves in situations like that um sometimes and and that's definitely not all media you know media there's a lot of media that does a phenomenal job there's a lot of media that has been great to players a lot of media that you know enhances you know the game and the individual and all that stuff and then you know there are some instances whether it's you know you missing something as small as you missing the game winning shot or you kind of being in the middle of some you know political controversy where they do ask pointed questions based upon you know the situation that you're in and try to elicit that response that they know could be

negative right um you know those are situations that are unfair um but you know they they happen they happen and it's on us to be authentic to whatever it is that that we feel in that moment whether it's too common or not common yeah you know i think that's why you saw like you know like the steve kerr's etc of the world kind of say look i'm not well versed on the topic and i know you know president had his opinions about that but you know you're well within your right to say i i don't know yeah there's nothing wrong with with not knowing everything look there's some people who should be saying i don't know and they don't for sure because and let's kind of pull away from china and just more kind of this you know social impact and cultural impact that professional

athletes can have the thing that um i think a lot of people kind of forget very easily is the same you know kind of oh it's uncomfortable as an athlete to be put in a position where i'm getting asked questions i don't understand something you know whatever a lot of these athletes are still using that same exact star power etc for really good things in their communities and in the united states all this stuff and i always go back to uh the beautiful thing about the united states is i don't care if you agree with the person or not yeah they have the right to do it they have the freedom to do it and if you look across the nba nfl and all these leagues most of the guys are doing really positive things yeah exactly right and they're using it to their benefit um of their

communities etc and so um you know it's kind of just like everyone take a deep breath yeah exactly exactly um i think when you look at uh where a lot of these guys came from and being able to succeed at the different levels that they're able to succeed um we we all have a certain level of you know indebtedness to where we came from and and wanting to you know have a positive impact on those on those places and on those people and and you know the the more that doing good has become in vogue and become public and all these things like you know you're just seeing more and more and and so the more positive like we can shed on things in terms instead of negative just positive energy in general like it's contagious and it does wonders for you know everybody that's

you know around it and associated with it for sure i uh i usually end up with rapid fire questions about crypto because i got you here we're going with some basketball rapid fire uh lebron jordan or kobe who's the goat who's the goat i know i know you've debated this probably for too many hours of your life see i'm gonna throw something else at you guys i'm not i'm not even gonna pick because kobe's my favorite player so i'm biased but i will say the goat across all different levels of basketball is kareem abdul-jabbar high school college pro had to change rules for him he's the leading scorer in nba history if we're talking about full career goat that's him we just talked about like you know six years ago prime then it's jordan because he had the six and oh but okay full

career i'm going kareem i think that's actually a pretty like legitimate answer they changed the rules is a pretty hard thing to argue against um what's your favorite uh nba playoff memory favorite nba playoff memory not that not you but like as a fan like as a fan yeah oh it had to be the tip out to to ory's three that was big shot bob oh big shot bob yeah because i was panicking you know the little kid that was a that was a super laker fan la was panicking at the moment like guys like we're not really gonna lose like come on that's a pretty good one um and then if you could play with any player in the NBA today, who would it be?

Kevin Durant. Can we get some inside knowledge on how this all went down? You know, they had that famous phone call. That's what they said, right? They had the famous phone call where they got on three-way FaceTime at like 4 a.m. Who was on it?

It was KD Kyrie and DJ. And that was it? 4 a.m., three-way FaceTime? Science Hill. deal done i i uh i gotta admit part of the uh nba that did not exist when i was a kid or when you were a kid that now has become so kind of uh enthralling is uh was a couple years ago when everyone was tweeting the emojis right who's gonna go get uh you know or the deandre jordan i think or something yeah like got trapped in his house i'm not leaving right the the phone calls

um you know uh kawaii leonard right calling up people and it's it it kind of is more entertaining than some of the actual basketball developments right how does all this stuff happen yeah no the nba has done a great job of like making free agency a must-see tv event you know and then and keeping us on the minds of the fans for you know the the full 12 months yeah absolutely uh what's your favorite book my favorite book um actually you know this is gonna kind of be a little you got a 1400 on the sat don't hit me with something stupid no i'm not gonna hit you with something stupid i'm gonna say the bible because that's what i'm tasking myself with reading through front to back this year wow yeah

well how far you think you are no no i'm saying that's what this is gonna be like my season task oh this during the season front to back that's actually pretty good yeah not just passages but like you start to finish all right you're gonna come back and we're gonna see if you finish at end of the season there we go um i usually let everyone ask me one question to end but before aliens believer non-believer are they real i'm a believer yeah why i am i just i don't know i feel like stuff that happens just is it's not all coincidence it's not just all random like i feel like things have purpose technology advances quickly like we we have all these ideas and they all keep you know manifesting in this similar type of like depiction right and it's like y'all

all thought about aliens and they all look the same way how did that happen it doesn't make any sense to me like we couldn't get a variety of imagination no it's government propaganda they all got to be yellow or a green slimy little guys right who come down and talk weird all right what one question you have for me to finish this what one question um i'm nervous what you could ask me no i'm not most crypto people come in and ask me crazy stuff but you you could ask me all kinds of crazy stuff uh personal question all right 2030 what do you see bitcoin in finance in general um that's a good question not just price prediction but when you see like how it falls like you'll get the compliance department to come over here yeah kill me if i do prices

yeah um no so i i think that i could talk about it from like a trend standpoint because i think that's the easiest thing to uh be right about right so kind of from a selfish standpoint first um i think a lot about automated finance so if you think of every stock bond currency and commodity being digitized yeah that unlocks the potential for automation so uh we see a little bit of it today you know robo advisors is kind of advising you on how to invest your capital or um we see things like um you know with crypto you can like put your bitcoin in and get a u.s dollar loan and some of the defi stuff right or tokenized dollars etc so i think all that stuff will become more and more prominent but it's intersecting with like true automation so uh

things like plaid etc where you can pull in all of your bank information i can do a better underwriting model to give you a loan like that type of stuff so i think that's one two uh i really do believe that we're going to see more and more uh when i say currencies fail and these are nation-state currencies is not like um they failed because somebody like blew up the country like that type of stuff right it's more of just uh throughout history if you look from literally the time you know ancient roman times yeah the downfall of currencies was debasing them right and so that's what we're doing with inflation and qe and all stuff and so i don't think that that's like uh 50 of the currencies fail by 2030 right i think it's a small percentage but i think we

will continue to see this uh and again some small subset of people will kind of keep putting capital into uh bitcoin at some point in the future i do think it becomes a global reserve currency wow um and it's because it has the one thing that none of the other currencies have right so like i always go back to this idea that uh in order to um have really really big innovations normally what happens is somebody does something different and they're right yeah so bitcoin's definitely doing something different and then it's a non-nation state backed currency uh it's def deflationary structure with a disinflationary monetary supply and it can't be manipulated because it's kind of software algorithmically disciplined those three things are very very

different than every other currency so we got the be different down for sure if it ends up being right changes the world right and so if you look around the world why would somebody be interested in this well if you live in a country where you're worried about you know your country or one of the corporations seizing your assets the fact that's non-seizable is pretty important right here in the u.s like i don't know about you i'm not worried about like you know bank of america taking 10 percent of my now it could happen happen in cyprus you know whatever but that's just not a daily concern i'm much more worried about the fluctuation in price right because the dollar is stable versus that yeah so if you just look around the world like time and time again we see these little

examples pop up eventually that becomes like uh it's kind of like a drum in the background and the next thing you know it's like the main show exactly right um so i think that'll happen and the last thing uh that i think is pretty interesting is um white collar jobs will actually be more affected by the automation than blue collar jobs but the advice will become more important so look at lawyers right like everyone's like oh we're just gonna like automate away the lawyers. No, what you're going to do is you're going to automate away like the paperwork and the drafting. It's going to become

more important, right? Because now I can't read the code. So if I can't read the code, I really need to make sure somebody can audit it, somebody can give me advice, all that kind of stuff. So again, this is stuff, you know, you're asking me basically 10, 12 years out, right, type stuff. And so it's generally

we're going to move in that direction. Will it happen right by 2030? I don't know. But I definitely think that all is likely where we're going. Can I get it one more? yeah yeah come on in terms of like ease of moving these things around right yep like where where do you see that turning to like what because obviously like crypto kitties tanked ethereum right and so now you have all these other like blockchains are more scalable and whatnot in terms of like the smart contract basically or not so much the currency piece of it right but like where do you

see what what else do you see that can kind of like move and do these things that yeah so there's no one direct answer i usually answer this kind of from a different couple different angles take cell phones right when cell phones first came out there these big brick things you had to be pretty wealthy to get one um or you had to be doing a bunch of nefarious shit to have a cell phone right there's two types of people who had cell phones but you couldn't call everyone yeah so like if you were the one friend out of all of your friends who had a cell phone yeah well it was it was cool because if your friend went to a pay phone they could call you or from their house they could call you and they could get you because you were with your mobile phone but it wasn't as

valuable to you if none of your other friends had because you still call their house they're not there you know all this kind of stuff so as you got more density in the cell phone network the cell phones became more valuable yeah right the other piece of it is the technology doesn't necessarily have to be the best has to be good enough yeah right and so you look at beta max versus vhs you know all these examples um and so when i look at like how the assets move around today right i actually fall in the category of yes there are definitely things that could be quote-unquote better right in terms of like oh it's not instantaneous in seconds yeah but if you you know i've said twice now so one if i want to send a bitcoin on the lightning network it will

actually settle faster than if i put a credit card chip into a chip reader yeah you know when you go to like a starbucks and you put the chip in there and it's like 40 seconds yeah and it's like you know uh processing approving whatever like it's pretty fast right obviously but it's still the never can be faster right and then if you look at sending bitcoin on the bitcoin network versus sending a wire at the bank the bank takes one day to settle yeah so let's say that the bitcoin transaction takes 10 minutes it's a pretty material improvement right and so it's all kind of relative um but the thing that becomes most important is it's highly highly highly secure exactly no centralized authority and so to me it's if you are the best at the security and the

lack of centralized authority and you can live with the time well it just will improve over time right go back to the internet the dial-up right like i you're probably you know you're i'm 31 so you're probably yeah aol like we used to literally like that was like the first scheme i had right was like all right i got the 30-day trial how do i get another 30-day trial so we never like we never paid for aol right but we always had the one the free trials and so if you were using the internet you couldn't use the phone line yeah right and then like i remember like my mom would be screaming i'd get off the internet because i need to make a phone call right like today we'd be like what exactly but in you know that was in the mid 90s yeah right so so we're talking 20 25

years max like that's how far we've come yeah and so you know look out again 10 15 20 years with bitcoin like i'm not saying that it's going to be um you know i blink and my brain wallet sends a bitcoin to a machine and kind of like this super like sci-fi futuristic stuff but i am saying that it's going to be much better improved user experience better um you know in terms of scalability speed lower fees all that kind of stuff but it takes time for sure people are you they're looking at it like uh you know hey the iphone yeah 12 year old technology there's a lot of cell phones before the iphone yeah right now it's the same technology though right so i don't actually think that something's going to replace bitcoin i think that it's just going to take time

for people to keep building and improving the bitcoin technology and eventually it'll be what everyone wants it to be but it's gonna make sense make sense so whatever all right anything uh well hold on where can people go find out about uh the contract and kind of what you're doing with uh with tokenization uh dreamfanshares.com dreamfanshares.com what's that where the name come from um so fanshares i mean obviously is you know what we're pretty self-explanatory pretty self-explanatory um the acronym dream so uh the the company that builds my shoes is called project dream and so you know when i signed on to do that and got you know some co-founder equity and i just really uh love the what what they were kind of doing with the disrupt reality every available

moment like the acronym disrupt reality every available moment yeah just the acronym that they were doing so i was like hey guys um you know fanshares.com whatever it was is taking i was like hey do you think like i could borrow the acronym and they're like yeah go for it and i was like all right cool yeah just put a link on there awesome man all right well best of luck with this uh we'll definitely uh make sure that we tweet it out and everything when it goes live and then uh good luck with the season and then when you come back we're gonna see if you got done reading the bible and if you guys win an nba championship thank you brother sounds good all right hey everyone pop here if you like this episode of off the chain and want to help us

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