The Pour Over Today - TPO Explains: The Truth About Seeking Asylum in the U.S. | 12.13.25

Episode Date: December 13, 2025

Readers of The Pour Over pick a topic to have explained, and Jason and Kathleen have to get Joe to understand it in less than 30 minutes… This week, they’re explaining Asylum. Looking to support us? You can choose to pay⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Check out The Pour Over's Gift Guide!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check out our sponsors! We actually use and enjoy every single one. ⁠Cru⁠ ⁠Safe House Project⁠ ⁠Life Application Study Bible⁠ ⁠CCCU⁠ ⁠Upside⁠ ⁠Mosh⁠ ⁠LMNT⁠ ⁠Theology in the Raw⁠ ⁠Not Just Sunday Podcast⁠ ⁠She Reads Truth⁠ The Pour Over’s Newsletters: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Pour Over⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Decaf⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠News Health⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Praying the News⁠

Today's episode is brought to you by our lead sponsor, Safe House Project. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I'm not a fan of people putting their feet up on the dashboard while driving, but on a road trip. Why? Because it makes it dirty? No, I don't care about that. It's in my mind, it's like, okay, the airbag's going to go off and their legs are just shattered, you know? That's what is Emily's qualm with it. And before I met her, I never thought about it, but not.

that she, you know, brought it up. It makes sense why you'd be cautious about putting your feet up on the dash sitting in the passenger side. I don't know. I like to put my feet on the dash. I like to do my mascara while Todd is driving. There is quite literally no bound to things I will do while sitting in the car. I, yeah, I mean, you work from the car all the time. And I don't know. I hit like 25. I used to love roller coasters. I hit 25. and just get nauseous. Like, if I'm not actively, if I'm not driving the car, I'm in trouble. I like to curl my hair in the car.

You feel like someone who I could pull up next to and you have like your foot on the dash while you're driving. It's like cruise control and you just, it's like, ah, I got to stretch my legs. Jason, long road trips, you have to be the driver? Yeah, I mean, I can sit in the past. seat. I prefer to drive. I can't, I can't be in the back seat for any extended period of time. Man, we were, Whipple and I went to a wedding of a fraternity brother in Colorado, and I was sitting in the back of this Jeep we rented, and him and Madison were driving. And it was through the

mountains, the windy roads. It was bad. It was bad. All right, grandpa. You ready to talk? I know. For real. And I remember being so annoyed at my dad who, like, wouldn't go on roller coasters. He's like, no, I'll throw up. And I'm like, come on. It's fun. Figure it out. Yeah. I will say I do put my foot up on the dash while I'm driving, but I draw the line at like sticking my toes out the window. That feels just egregiously wrong. People do that. It's glad you have a boundary. I've seen people do. that. Yeah. I did once see a guy driving a motorcycle with his feet up, and that felt just that's too far. That feels like a, like a talent, you know, that's not even like relaxing. That's just

showing off. I guess, but it made me stressful and I was trying to pass them while doing my makeup and curling my hair. I was like, they're only room on this road for one of us to be distracted, buddy. Nice. My favorite is, I know when Jason feels like we've come to a stopping point because he'll go, nice. And then cue music. It's perfect. Boom.

Hello and welcome to another episode of TPO Explains. I'm Joe, podcast producer here at the pourover. And I'm here with Jason, our founder and editor-in-chief, and Kathleen. our managing editor. So here's the idea behind the show. Our readers share which topics they want us to explore, and then we bring that to the podcast. Today's winner, Asylums.

That's right. Joe, can you explain? What is Asylum? A specific person that comes to mind when you say Asylums, and I don't know if it appropriately applies, but I think of Edward Snowden, like the famous whistleblower, who is like in another country right and he has to just stay there because he's safe there and if he were to step foot things would not go well for him so i don't know i think of as some like safe haven protection something along those lines yeah um so we'll talk about

very specifically in this episode what is asylum when it comes to people seeking asylum in the United States. But that was, I mean, that's a good example of my seeking asylum from the United States. But broadly speaking, when people come to the U.S., they come for one of three reasons. So they're either coming, like, temporarily to visit, or they want to move here permanently, or maybe they're coming here for safety or protection. So if you're coming here, like fleeing persecution, which has to be due to your race, religion, nationality, a political opinion, or like membership in a particular social group. I can't just be like because you feel like people don't like you or something. Then that's typically where we'll see like refugees and asylum seekers,

which are also called asylees. So you mentioned refugees. Joe, what is the difference between an asylee or someone seeking asylum and a refugee? Is a refugee someone who is just, like, leaving for safety reasons and is an asylum, someone who's, like, formally recognized by the government as someone with protections? You know, it's, I prior to researching, I could not have made this distinction. And the truth is, they're like, they're very similar. It is, it is about physical location. So a refugee is someone when we're talking about the United States. someone outside the United States that is seeking asylum and protection. And someone who is an asylee is like in the United States saying, hey, I don't, I don't want to go back. So, yes, a refugee is usually through the UN refugee agency and there's like a formal resettlement program. So it's like, hey, there's this, you know, war in Syria.

there's a bunch of people who are fleeing Syria and need to be resettled around the world. And the U.S. will say, hey, we'll take, you know, 50,000 of them or something like that. It's just the physical location of where you are when you're applying for protection. Yeah. And once approved, refugees and asylees end up with the same benefits, the long-term rights, and it's just the location that's different. Yeah, I will say another little thing that's different. There is a limit on the number of refugees that the United States will take each year.

The president actually sets that annually. Like with Congress, they'll review, I don't know. The past three years, I think it's been 125,000 is the ceiling of refugees, but we haven't actually hit that ceiling most of the year, like most of the years, maybe in the last decade. But anyway, so there's a limit annually on the number of refugees that will accept. but there is no limit for the number of asylees that will be approved. So, Joe, we talked, Kathleen mentioned some of the reasons you can claim asylum. Who cannot get asylum? See, I'm going to guess someone with like some criminal history.

I'm sure like, yeah, having a dangerous or someone with a background of doing some dangerous stuff, you wouldn't want that. Yeah, person in. Yeah, one of the things that will disqualify you is if you're part of a terrorist organization. Also, if you've committed serious crimes, so murder, drug trafficking, and I think part of what is important to recognize, and we'll talk a little bit about the process, but like each one of these is individually reviewed, and it's part of just like why there's such a backlog and it's such a cumbersome process. But each individual who is claiming asylum is individually reviewed. And the reasons they're most likely disqualified are they file too late. Again, we can talk about

the process in a second. Or their fear doesn't match one of those legally protected categories that Kathleen mentioned. So race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or membership in a particular social group, which feels super vague. I actually saw an example of this because first you're like, oh, you can't, you know, go to Comic-Con. But it's actually the, if you're, let's see, say a part of a family that a family member was targeted, that's not necessarily because of your race or religion, but you're a part of a social group, aka your family that was targeted.

So that's probably the most changeable example. Got it. So reasons you're denied are you don't fit in that category. And importantly, saying like poverty or generalized violence in the country, like that is not enough reason to say like, hey, the country is just violent or I am like there's no economic opportunity. Then they go ahead. Sorry, on that note. So asylum is very specifically about the person. There is, like, as an aside, the United States has temporary protected statuses for countries.

So, like, if your country is known to be in the middle of a civil war, very dangerous, then the United States would have a program for, like, I'm throwing it out there. I don't actually know what's on the list. Like Syria maybe has, like, a temporary protected status where they're saying, your country, we know it's dangerous. Like, you can come to the United States and we'll review your case. So the asylum is very specifically about the person, not just there in a dangerous country. And then the other reason you might be denied is, one, you were, you were like already resettled in another country.

And then you're just like, hey, my home country is still dangerous, but I want to get to the United States. You'll get denied for that. Or if you pass through a safe third country that we have a relationship with. So the idea is like, hey, if you are fleeing persecution, we want to help you be safe. This isn't meant to just be like a, hey, I'm fleeing persecution and I'm choosing the U.S. It's like, no, the goal is your safety. And if you passed through Canada, who we have a relationship with, you just need to resettle in Canada. Yeah.

You also just can't keep applying for asylum. So if you've been previously denied, like you can't just say, No, I still think I should get it. Something has to have changed for you to apply again. You can appeal, but something has to have changed. So that could potentially block like your path if you've been denied in the past. Okay, so those are reasons you, sorry, did you want to say something else? No, I was going to go to the next question.

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TPO. I finally stepped in and going to ask a question. All right. So if you can get asylum, how do you think you'd go about that, Joe? you go through the application process it's individually you said it's individually reviewed and so do you have to be in communication with whichever department reviews those applications

then you are i don't know if you're assigned like a a case manager is the word that comes to mind but i don't know if that's the the right term and they're going to have to probably interview and go through that whole process to make sure this is legitimate. Yeah. So there's two types of asylum. Affirmative asylum. You know, Jason mentioned a time limit. That's kind of where this comes into place.

So if you're already in the U.S., you've arrived to the U.S., you have one year to let asylum officers know that you want to, or I guess, immigration services, know that you want to apply for asylum. So from the day that you are here, you have one year. You need to file a form, the amount of forms that start with the letter I and have just a number behind them. I don't know how anybody keeps it straight. But anyway, so you file a form and you say, I'm seeking asylum. And because you have affirmatively done that, you've come forward and said, here I am. It's been a year. You'll get like an interview with an officer.

It's a little bit more casual. And they determine, like, do you have a case for asylum? If they say no, or if it's been over a year, or if you're already in like removal proceedings. So let's say you show up at the border, they're like, yeah, you can't come in. You're like, no, no, no, but I need asylum. Then you go into this line called defensive asylum. So you're basically defending yourself against deportation by saying, I need asylum. So for that, it's handled more like courtroom proceedings.

You still will get an interview, which is called a credible fear interview where they'll sit you down and say, like, why are you afraid to go back? And then from there, it goes to a judge who will review the case. But there's only 54 immigration courts in the United States. And I think there was like 1.4 million. I don't actually know that. Over a million. Yeah.

So there are three million cases pending an immigration court. That's all types of immigration cases. And asylum, because everyone is individually reviewed and there has to be this like vetting and background, all the stuff, they're some of the slowest. There are 800 judges total in the U.S. that can hear one of these cases. And so

rough estimate, if you, from the time that you apply for asylum, you will find out in four to seven years. Oh my goodness. Okay, which is crazy because even on the website, it's like, hey, it's been a really long time, like two or three years, just let us know and we'll look into it again.

It's like, what? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So very, very small number of courts, very small number of judges. And then there's, if you don't like what the judge says, you can appeal it, but there's only one, like, appeal court. Every appeal for immigration. For all immigration cases has to go to one court. Yeah. And this is handled outside of the judicial branch.

Like all of this is under the Department of Justice. So then if you still don't like it, then you can appeal and it goes to the federal court of appeals. And now it's in like the justice system. And I don't think it ever really gets up to the Supreme Court, but it could. Yeah. The Supreme Court is I saw some chart where it's like it, the cases never make it there. but ultimately you do get funneled into the justice system and it could go up to the Supreme Court. Yes, very, very slow, very tons of forms and honestly just wildly inefficient and a huge slog.

Yeah. You guys have percentages on like rate of approval versus denials? Yeah. It's actually really hard to find numbers. It is really hard. So she talked about, Kathleen talked about the credible fear script. So that's like you come to the border and you say, no, no, no, I need to, like I'm fleeing persecution. 70 to 80 percent of people pass that, but that's an intentionally low bar.

I did not see numbers, but saw repeatedly. I have some. I will say something interesting about the credible fear. Like, if you say that you fear persecution, you're afraid to go back to your country, you are legally guaranteed to talk to an asylum officer, like to have. some sort of pre-screening. There was the Refugee Act of 1980 set up a bunch of legal protections. Yeah, you're starting to trample on my fun fact. Spoiler alert.

Okay, okay, let me go back to what you actually asked me about. So as far as approval rates, roughly 50% of asylum applications will be approved. And that number kind of like goes up and down from 40 to 60, but roughly 50%. And then at least like the past couple years, a third of the applications have been those affirmative ones. And then two thirds have been the defensive, like people saying, don't remove me because I can't go back. It's higher than I thought. This might be. Yeah, that is.

And this might be getting two in the weeds. But for those that are denied after four years of just waiting, does the U.S. send those people on our, like, planes? out back to their country. How do we see to it that they are exiting and landing safely in their home country? We should do an episode on immigration. Yeah. This is, there are so much I didn't know and so much, so many like, um, different ways

and different like things that progress or pause or halt or deter like, I don't know. We should do an episode on immigration. We'll table it. Yep. Yeah. I will say, sorry, one more number. Last year, there were about 100,000 applications granted. So if we say about 50%, 100,000 applications were granted, the year before it was like 50,000.

And then the applications could also, I guess that was a, it's people granted. So it was like a lower number of applications. So if you think about the number of cases that are stuck being in the millions and that those cases might represent family, like the numbers get really high. All right. What happens? So you've gone through the process. It's year six and you hear the good news.

You're granted asylum. What does that mean? Well, wait, before we get there, what do you think you've been doing while you're waiting? Oh, great question. I feel like that individual would just have to live. I mean, they have to survive. during the six years that they're waiting, right? Yep.

You can, but only after six months. So one, I guess, other distinction between refugees and asylees, since refugees, like, apply before they're here, they're already screened. Asylees have to wait 150 days to apply to work, which costs about $500 in some cases. And then it's a 30 more day waiting period until you can actually work. So for six months, you can't legally work in the United States while you're waiting for asylum. But then after six months, you can. Yes.

And so then let's fast forward. And you are, you're in this weird pending. You can't travel internationally. Right. You don't get federal benefits. You're in this weird pending legal status where you're protected from being deported, but they're not sure whether or not you're going to be here long term. And so it's like, hey, eventually we'll let you work.

But it's you're not really in. You're just not being booted out. You're not out. And then once you are granted asylum, you can live and work in the U.S. You can immediately apply for family reunification for spouses and unmarried children under 21. You become eligible for certain government programs. You can apply for a green card after one year and citizenship four years after getting the green card. So five years total.

So once you are granted asylum, it is effectively a path towards purpose. permanent residence and citizenship. But importantly, that is assuming the conditions that created the danger don't change. So if you are prior to becoming a citizen, if it's like, hey, you were persecuted, but now you're not persecuted, it's like, great, you can go back. And so again, like, if you, if you came to the U.S., in its pure intent, you're being persecuted, you flee persecution, and the goal is to go back. But, and a lot of what we see in the news is like, this is just viewed as a more secure way to stay in the U.S. And that wasn't its intent. And that's a lot of what the like controversy and rub is.

and all that. Yeah, makes sense. And just to put it in perspective, like in 2023, that was the last set of numbers that I saw. Refugees and asylees accounted for 8% of legal permanent residents, lawful permanent residents. So a small percent. Human trafficking isn't just an over-their problem.

It's happening right here in the U.S. An estimated 300,000 people are, being trafficked in America right now, and most were first sold as children. Even when they get a chance to run, sometimes there's no safe way out, and they get pulled right back in. Safehouse Project is helping children get to safety and stay there by equipping communities to spot trafficking and funding urgent escapes. They cover what's needed in those crucial moments, a way to escape, shelter, and resources for lasting freedom. Trafficking in the The U.S. is at crisis levels and requests for help to escape are higher than ever.

Just $40 provides a safe ride that takes a child from captivity to freedom. Safehouse Project can't miss the moment when a child is ready to escape, and your gift makes sure they don't. Give a child the way out. Go to safehouseproject.org slash TPO or check the link in the show notes to give now. we do fun facts let's do it I don't have any this time so put

put a timer on Jason yeah okay I should clarify this isn't this was a just a huge revelation to me it's not necessarily a fun fact asylum

like as a category internationally there's obviously like there's some this there's some like old testament references to like like there's cities of refuge.

If you're accused of murder, you can go to that city of refuge and different things. So obviously, like the concept exists. But internationally and in the U.S., asylum was not a thing until after World War II. So the motivation, like very recently in like the timeline of humanity, which was so wild to me that it was basically the UN and, countries at large were like, wow, we really messed up because the Jews were fleeing the Nazis and we come knocking on our doors and we were just like, nope, and sent them back to Germany where they were then killed. And it's like, that was a huge issue and we can't let that happen again. And so the whole premise like is no country should send people back to a place

where they're likely to be persecuted or killed. And so then we, in the U.S., we get the Refugee Act of 1980. So it was not a like codified system until 1980. And before then, like even between World War II and 1980 in the U.S., like there was some like patchwork processes where if you were fleeing persecution, you could get in. But like, this is just a very new thing. And I had no idea. I assumed, like, you know, the founding fathers were like, hey, here are the different ways you can come here. And asylum was one of them.

It's very surprising. And I wonder how the U.S. with our way of doing it compares to other countries and their process. I too had that revelation, though, Jason, of like, World War II really changed everything. And the fact that the U.N., you know, came about and said, okay, well, everybody should have the right to flee persecution. And, like, if they, you know, this is a human right, which was just established less than... Within living memory. A hundred years ago. Yeah.

Yeah. Hey, Jason, great fact. I hesitated to say fun fact. Yeah. Nothing really about the topic is fun, but interesting and valuable and relevant. Intriguing. Yes. Yes.

Excellent intriguing. fact, Jason. Yes. Christian perspectives. Yeah, let's move on to Christian perspectives. I'll go. Mine was very

quickly and very clearly above all love just considering man, the I can't, it's very hard for me to put myself in the position of somebody who is looking into this, potentially speaking another language,

having to figure out which forms I need to fill out, how much money I'm going to need to do it. Is an interpreter going to be available? How am I going to get there? Can my family come with me? Like, just considering, I feel like often I try and put myself in other people's shoes, and I just can't in this case. Like, it is so beyond what I can even imagine. And then considering the people who day in and day out have to review these cases, and then on their plates is determining, like, is this scary enough to let this person come to our country? The lawmakers who are considering, and the president consider, like, how many people are.

can we accept? And how do I keep people within our country safe? Like what what provisions do we need to make? What boundaries do we need to have? The amount of people and consideration and nuance on this topic and we're just talking about one small portion of immigration just really humbled me and made me feel like I want to have love for everyone involved in this process. The people who are, you know, on one side of it, the people who are on the other, I think There's a reasonable, there's reason to believe that everybody has the best interests of, you know, of everyone else in mind. And so. Yeah, I would agree, but you came at it from a better place of love than I did.

Mine, like when I started getting into like specifically the courts and the backlog and all this stuff, like I just grew very like frustrated and cynical. and, like, you see the number of asylum applications have jumped massively, and it was like, I needed to, I needed to, like, calm down and remind myself of all the things that you just said, Kathleen, and specifically the verse that came to my, like, my posture was, can we just, can we like throw this all out and start over? because this is just such a mess. And we need to just like stop this and try to figure out a new way or a better system. And the verse that came to mind was Galatian 6, 9, let us not grow weary of doing good. It's like, you know, this is a good work. We are specifically called to love foreigners and immigrants. And this is a very tangible way that we can do it.

And it is messy and it's a slog. And so if you are remotely in this system, regardless of where you are, I want to thank you and encourage you to not grow weary of doing good because this is a good thing, even though I'm sure it is frustrating and hard to everyone who's involved, whether or not you're processing the applications or submitting an application. Yes, thank you and keep it up. what an important word thanks guys well thanks everyone for joining us on another episode of tpo explains as a reminder you can watch this episode on youtube and spotify make sure to like comment and subscribe we'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback thanks for tuning in until next time bye The noise can be deafening in our chaotic world, but Jesus offers a better way to live.

Each week on the Not Just Sunday podcast, pastors Keith Simon and Patrick Miller help you quit part-time Christianity and follow Jesus with every part of your life. So that even in the chaos, you can experience the beautiful life he offers every day, not just Sundays. Listen to Not Just Sunday wherever you get your podcasts.