The Pour Over Today - What Does It Mean to "Plead the Fifth"? (Fauci Just Did It 100+ Times)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Okay, so this week we're talking about Dr. Fauci, he pleaded the fifth, which I would think it'd be pled the fifth, but whatever. It's both. It's both. It's both. Yeah, but pleaded is technically more formal and precise in writing, but pled is correct. Oh. Well, anyway, he did it over 100 times on Wednesday.

Starting point is 00:00:18 So today's topic is pleading the fifth, and honestly, I think that's what we're going to do. I plead the fifth. I plead the fifth, yeah. Well, I think that's enough joking around. won't plead the fifth after all. I'm Kathleen. And I'm Catherine Ann. And welcome to TPO Explains, where we provide news contacts for normal people.

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Starting point is 00:01:58 All right, K.A. You write our explainers. You do an awesome job, by the way. So she's going to read through the newsletter for today. Feel free to follow along with your eyes or just. just listen along with your ears. So K.A., tell us what does it mean to plead the fifth? I plead the fifth. I knew this was going to happen.

Starting point is 00:02:19 I'm just kidding. But it is kind of that simple. To plead the fifth means refusing to answer questions or provide information that might incriminate you. It refers to the Fifth Amendment, which says the government can't compel someone to, quote, witness against himself. So when can you plead the fifth? Pretty much any time a statement is compelled and might incriminate you. So think court proceedings, traffic stops, congressional hearings, arrests, etc. If someone's asking you to testify or hand over evidence that could get you prosecuted, you can plead the fifth. But can anything override your Fifth Amendment right?

Starting point is 00:02:59 Yes, actually. Immunity or a pardon. Pardoned people are exempt from prosecution, meaning they can't incriminate themselves, and testimony has to be self-incriminating to qualify. So sometimes investigators will offer immunity to a witness, which then compels them to testify. Also, you lose the right to plead the fifth about a crime when you've been convicted of it, since the beans have already been spilled on that one.

Starting point is 00:03:27 So what happens after you plead the fifth? It does depend on the context, but usually the people doing the questioning have to move on. In the case of an investigation, police could get a search warrant. warrant because the fifth doesn't apply to evidence investigators gather themselves. In the case of a courtroom, a lawyer either has to move on from that line of questioning or a judge can determine the witness doesn't have a basis for pleading the fifth and compel testimony by threatening

Starting point is 00:03:52 to hold them in contempt of court. So what are the downsides of pleading the fifth? Pleading the fifth can't be used to prove guilt for a criminal defendant, but witnesses and civil defendants who plead it can still face negative inferences from a jury. And employees who plead the fifth in a corporate investigation could also be fired if their contract requires them to play nice with the feds. Okay, so I do think at this point it's necessary to remind everybody that we are not lawyers. We're not. And our poor sweet podcast producer who will have to edit this episode. We're just girls. We're just girls. And she's going to have to edit out a lot of yapping from us where we were like, if we were in law school, I'd have questions about this.

Starting point is 00:04:44 But it has been really fascinating to read about. And especially when you talked about, you can't be compelled to say anything or hand over evidence. In my head, I'm like, I'm pretty sure they could make me hand over evidence. And so when we're looking at it, it was like, actually the fifth does not protect you from if they're like, hey, we need you to submit for DNA testing or blood samples, like bodily evidence. But there is a, what did you call it, something about doctrine? Production. Yes. So the act of production doctrine, where they say the act of producing records means either you know they exist or you have or control them

Starting point is 00:05:34 or you're validating that they're authentic just in the act of producing those records. So that would technically be covered by the Fifth Amendment. So that was a little surprising to me. Hey, it's Zan from the Pourover. I've been making a purposeful effort to eat more seafood because I know it's packed with nutrients and I feel better when I do.

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Starting point is 00:06:41 What about you? Are there other things you wanted to include that you weren't able to fit into this article? Yeah, there was so much we could say about this. Something that I had in an earlier draft, but we ended up having to cut was about Miranda rights, which, are connected to the Fifth Amendment. So on law and order, when you hear people talking about Miranda rights, or you have the right to remain silent, you have the right to remain silent as one of four Miranda rights that police are required to read to you when you are arrested

Starting point is 00:07:15 so that you know you do have the right to not speak to them. Because it might incriminate your time. It's when you're in their custody. Yes, yeah. It only applies to custodial interrogations. So if you come in voluntarily and you're allowed to leave at any time or you're allowed to cut the conversation off at any point, then you still have a Fifth Amendment right, but they don't have to redo your Miranda rights. Yeah, and one of the things we were talking about was like looking at the definite, looking at the Fifth Amendment and the language saying compelled to testify.

Starting point is 00:07:47 And it's like, okay, well, if you're not in police custody and you could just walk away at any time, then that probably doesn't fit the definition of compelled. So the Fifth Amendment doesn't count because you're not in police custody and you could just walk away at any time, then that probably doesn't fit the definition of compelled. so the Fifth Amendment doesn't count because you could just say, I'm out of here. I don't know, it's just, it's interesting to think about. I will say before this research,

Starting point is 00:08:05 when, do you know who Marshawn lunches? No. Okay. He played for the Seahawks, and there was one, like, media day, I think it was, where he showed up to, he was, like, sat in front of the press.

Starting point is 00:08:21 I think it was from after the Super Bowl. Anyway, For like five minutes, reporters were asking him questions. And for every single question, he goes, I'm just here so I don't get fined. I'm just here so I don't get fined. Because they're, like, required to attend Media Day. Wow.

Starting point is 00:08:35 And so, I mean, and it's iconic. But that's, like, what I pictured. When I pictures somebody pleading the fifth, they're like, I'm just here so I don't get fined. And I don't know if it's wrong, but it's much more layered. Yeah. Yeah. He's getting fined.

Starting point is 00:08:54 not incriminating himself potentially. Right. Oh, and that's one of my, like, more surprising things I learned. So pleading the fifth has different, um, it's handled differently in criminal instances and in civil instances. So we're talking about language that was written some time ago and having to figure out how it, how we can interpret it for current days. So anyway, um, it says criminal cases, but there are also civil cases. And so it comes down to, was it a monetary issue?

Starting point is 00:09:28 Like, is this going to be a fine? And if so, that's not really what the Fifth Amendment is. Which you can still plead it, but the judge can say the jury is allowed to infer guilt from you pleading the Fifth, which cannot be true in a criminal case. Yes, that was the interesting part for me, that if you're on a jury and somebody pleads the Fifth in a criminal case, you have to look past that. Because there are plenty of reasons why an innocent person would plead the fifth. Because if, you know, something happened on a street and they're like, do you walk down this street? If you say yes, they could turn that around on you and be like, well, then it must have been you. But you're innocent.

Starting point is 00:10:07 And so you're like, I'm just going to plead the fifth because I don't want to answer yes and you turn it around on me. So a jury can't assume anything from you saying from pleading the fifth in a criminal case. But in a civil case, because it's not the same definition from the writing of the amendment, the jury can make negative inferences if somebody pleads fifth. I don't know. Very, very much more layered than I anticipated. Incredibly. Yeah. What about, was there anything that you read that contradicted what you assumed going in? Yeah. I kind of assumed that pleading the fifth felt kind of like a weak defense in the sense of like it seems like well they can just force you to talk anyway it's it it feels it didn't feel like it held quite as much legal weight as when

Starting point is 00:11:02 I started looking into it I was like oh no this has a lot of legal weight and there are only certain instances where you can actually be compelled to testify and in those instances a lot of them you're given immunity from that testimony and so that was actually comforting I guess though I hope I never have to plead the fifth. Yeah. I don't know. I think so much of what we were reading in our research was like law articles and articles from law firms and stuff. And so much of it was like, if you need help figuring out if you can plead the fifth or if you should plead the fifth, consult a lawyer.

Starting point is 00:11:35 Consult a lawyer. Okay, we're going to leave it to the experts. But anyway, all right. Let's talk about your Christian perspective. Yeah. So the great thing is, thanks. to Christ's sacrifice, we won't need to plead the fifth when we are one day tried in God's heavenly court. Even though we will be found guilty on all counts, our punishment has already

Starting point is 00:12:00 been paid in full, and we can praise God for that today, even in the midst of all this legal jargon and thinking about these things. And I think Colossians, chapter 2, verses 13 and 14, are good to dwell on with this. They say, and when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive with him and forgave us all our trespasses. He erased the certificate of debt with its obligations that was against us and opposed to us and has taken it away by nailing it to the cross. Thanks, Kay. Before we go, let's pray together.

Starting point is 00:12:33 We're going to take a moment to pray a prayer of confession. Almighty and merciful God, you are near to the brokenhearted and contrite, calling mourners and the meat blessed. Yet we regularly refuse to greet. and be humbled by our brokenness. We look away from our weakness and sin, distracted by the noise in the world and in our hearts. Convicting spirits slow us down and shine your light on the dark places in us. As we face our weakness, show us your strength. Create a new heart in us that hates what lures us away and longs for that which brings us close to you. Savior Jesus,

Starting point is 00:13:07 come quickly to save us. We are pursued by constant temptations. Deliver us from the sin that entangles and cleanse us from the earthly habits that quench your spirit. Amen. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to like and subscribe. Definitely subscribe if you want to see Jason on here or get a hoodie. You can find all of our past explainers as well as our Monday, Wednesday, Friday, new summaries on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So until next time, bye. What if you could grow your savings while helping advance the gospel? You can, with the Delphi Christian Banking, formerly Christian Community Credit Union. Their high-hield harvest bundle offers 4% APY on harvest checking and 5% APY on harvest savings. Even better, every deposit helps

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The Pour Over Today - What Does It Mean to "Plead the Fifth"? (Fauci Just Did It 100+ Times)

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