The Press Box - A Lesson in Public Relations: Constance Wu and Taylor Swift | Jam Session

Episode Date: May 15, 2019

‘Fresh off the Boat’ star Constance Wu sent some angry tweets after learning the show was being renewed for a fifth season (1:00) then turned around to deny that’s what she was upset about (13:08). Ahead of her new album, Taylor Swift is back in the public eye (22:09) and it seems like she hasn’t changed much (31:20). Hosts: Juliet Litman and Amanda Dobbins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode of Jam Session is brought to you by Miller Lite. Did you know that Miller Light was the beer that launched the light beer category? Miller Light is the original light beer, and from the start, it is never compromised on taste. That's because it's always brewed to have more taste, with only 96 calories and 3.2 grams of carbs. Miller Light, hold true. This episode of Jam Session is also brought to you by Mac Powder Kiss Lipstick. Mac Powder Kiss Lipstick is Matt reinvented. The new mat formula is where Matt meets moisture.

giving you the zero-shine look of a matte lipstick with instant long-term hydration and a weightless cushiony texture. The velvety soft matte colors glide on effortlessly with a wide range of shades that are sure to complement any skin tone. Head to your nearest Mac location to meet your mat today or shop at macposmetics.com. Welcome to Jam Session. I'm Juliet Lippman. I'm Amanda Dittman. Hi, Amanda. What's up? Hi, Juliet. Many PR disasters to cover. Yeah, this is just like some textbook. Don't do this.

Totally. It's really great. stuff. I'm excited. Let's get into it. We're going to talk about Taylor Swift. But first, Constance Wu, probably enemy number one of, like, many people on the internet. I loved this. This was great because this just didn't have to happen. It was phenomenal. And there are almost no stakes to it. No one is really hurt. And it was hilarious. So should we just recap?

Yes, let's please. So late Friday afternoon, ABC was announcing its renewals and cancellations because it's, you know, kind of network upfront TV time right now. That's a thing that still happens. whether or not you pay attention to it. And they announced that they would be renewing fresh off the boat. And Constance Wu, one of the stars are fresh off the boat, takes to both Twitter and Instagram to express her total displeasure with this news of her continued employment.

Yes, she's pissed. So on Twitter, she's literally, they're still up, by the way. This is the most amazing thing is that the tweets are still up, and we'll talk about why they are. the first one is so upset right now that I'm literally crying. Ugh, fuck. And then another tweet, fucking hell. And then over on Instagram, she showed up on the fresh off the boat Instagram and where they announced the renewal and she just commented dislike.

So this is like a multi-platform public wine fest. And initially people were like, oh, this is a because she's upset about it. her show being renewed. And this one guy tweeted about it. And she responded to him. I said I was upset and crying. I did not say it was over a TV show. You're making an assumption.

Wait, wait. There was another one where someone was like, congrats. This is great news about the renewal. And she replies on Twitter, no, it's not. No, it's not. Yeah.

So, like, she is doing all of these simultaneously. And I think, like, she is on Instagram responding to the renewal with dislike, which she, like, literally wrote out from her account. So, guys, she was on social media complaining about this show being canceled. That is like an objective. We have the facts. We have the receipts.

And all the people saw it. Whatever comes next, which is a lot because she really tried to spin it. She was in public whining about her show being renewed. After initially denying it too and not deleting that tweet. There is just like that that's what happened. It's just so funny. So people noticed this pretty quickly because it was a Friday afternoon on the internet. And no one goes outside.

Everyone's just waiting to leave work, sitting at their desks. Right. So people are paying attention to this. And the first thing she updates is that was not a rampage. It was just how I normally talk. I say fuck a lot. I love the word. Which is like, who cares?

No one is upset about the fact that you're cursing, but whatever. Y'all are making a lot of assumptions about what I was saying. And no, it's not what it's about. No, it's not what this is all about. Stop assuming. Stop assuming. Okay. And then another one.

So that happens. And everyone's like, okay, so you're trying to deny it. Yeah, which like absolutely not. And that lasts not very long. And at the same time, these like four to five tweets are enough for everyone on the internet who has ever had a bad feeling about Constance Wu to just start sharing publicly. And that like suddenly random people on Twitter being like, it is well known that Constance Wu is very difficult to work with.

Which like, I mean, I don't agree with any of this behavior. but also like suddenly 15 million people, not 15 million people, but a lot of people were like, this is my opportunity to just like trash someone for being really mean. So it becomes like a full debacle really quickly. Then she tweets again, today's tweets were on the heels of a rough day and we're ill time with the news of the show. Please know I'm so grateful. I love the cast and crew. I'm proud to be a part of it.

Blah, blah, blah. Okay. So that's on Friday. That's kind of what she does. And she tries to clean it up. And Juliet, does it work? No, it doesn't. We're here still talking about it. So people keep going and are sharing news about how she was allegedly hard to work with on the fresh off the boat set and on the crazy rich Asians.

And then other people are like, it's always women who are like difficult to work with. And it becomes this whole like brouhaha. And then for some reason on Saturday, she releases another statement. A statement, yes, which is like a not quite a screenshot, but like something that she crafted as like a PDF. and then cropped and sent to her phone. Right. And she posts them, like the actual tweet is, these words are my truth. I hope you hear them.

And then a photo embed of this statement, which is really long. I just want to say it only has 2.7,000 retweets, would I consider low for a contra tant of this magnitude. Right. Well, you got to figure that a lot of people are also just using the image. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's what happens.

Yeah. And basically the argument she tries to put forth is that she was going to do another project and the renewal of Fresh Off the Boat meant that she was going to have to say no to this other work that she wanted to do. And she was upset about that. Okay. And she's like, I know that it's... Right. And she's like, I, you know, I know it was really ill-timed and I know that some people won't understand this.

And I'm still really grateful to Fresh Off the Boat and blah, blah. But the way that she says this Is it just insane There are some real gems Read some of your favorites So she's like She explains that You know I was upset because it meant I had to give up another project

Whatever Fresh Off the boat is a great show that I'm proud of And that I enjoy I've gotten to fully explore my character I get to work with a kind and pleasant cast crew Which makes it all quite enjoyable So obviously I don't dislike doing a show that is fun and easy and pleasant, which is the most condescending way.

It's fun and easy and pleasant. Yeah, it's not like a challenge. It's not rigorous. It's not. Right. But so, like, that on its own is very dismissive. And then she goes into this whole thing about how she's, like, an artist and she really wants to do things that challenge her.

And, like, even her friends don't understand that how I could value artistic challenge difficulties over success and happiness. Fam, you are a sitcom actress. And you had one movie, which was crazy retent, which I really enjoy and have seen three times. Me as well. But again, is that challenging? Are we, is that rigorous art? Like, is this going in the MoMA?

The reason why it's a great movie is because it's like candy. Yeah. Of course. It's not like some deep, provocative, whatever. Sure. I am biased against anyone who describes themselves as like an artist committed to their craft ever. I find it to be the most pretentious nonsense of all time, which is different. by the way, than I appreciateing art and craft and intellect and ideas.

But I often find that the people who are like, I'm an artist and who want to talk about their craft are the people who can't actually deliver on art or craft or ideas or performance or anything. They talk about themselves instead of actually doing work and creating stuff. This kind of seems like a case. But then, whatever, she keeps going. The end is the real thing. People can hold conflicting feelings in their heart. that conflict is a part of being human

so I can, you know, love the show and be disappointed, whatever, blah, blah, blah. She's saying all these things, it goes on for far too long. And then literally here are the last two sentences. Thank you. It's meaningful when you make the choice to believe women. This is fucked up. It's like legit fucked up.

That's like Constance Woon, you're never coming back from that one for me and for a lot of people. Yeah, because she's basically equating her tantrum on social media with women who undergo sexual assault and have to like make their case. And that is a bonkers conflation. It's not even a conflation. It's just like straight up inaccurate.

Irresponsible. Irresponsible and offensive. Yes. It's crazy. It's like a hard no. It's don't even try that. Pouts diswoo. I wouldn't say this statement was received well.

No. Not at all. And then Gemma Chan, who was with her in Crazy Ridge Asians and who was, I probably preferred in crazy rich Asians, not that you have to choose. But as you know, I always do make a choice. She liked a picture, I believe.

That was like a diss of Constance Wu, basically. It was like some random Instagram, essentially. And then she said she slipped and she didn't mean to do it on purpose. She also liked one of the tweets that's like it's well known that Conflicts was difficult to work with. So Gemma Chan, not a fan. Oh, they didn't have that many scenes together, to be honest. Yeah, that's true. Frankly, I don't really think that they did Gemma Chan's character a lot of favors in Crazy Rich Asians.

They didn't know what to do with it, which is a bummer because she's the most interesting character in the book. But what are you going to do? Yeah. And then she has since disavowed that. But like it took a suspiciously long time for her to be like, no, I just slipped. I know. Gemma Chan just sort of like whatever. And no one else has really come to Constance Wu's defense that I have seen.

No, no one has. Now, some of that is just like everyone loves a true fuck-up narrative. And she is just being really unlikable in public. And these are the facts. So, like, you can kind of be mean about it. And like, it did become a pile on. And people do like to pile on. But I kind of don't feel bad.

This is such an unforced error. I know. And the last line of her statement, just. Exactly. And even while she may have built up, just kind of knocks it all out. Yeah. Also, I feel like this cast, more than with other movies, spent so much time together. because they promoted the shit out of this movie,

that I feel like if she was friendly with them, like if she had a Maisie Williams to her Sophie Turner, like we would know. And it just doesn't seem like she's got many friends. And that was my other thing is that if I were in her situation, I would have like a friend who I, like, knew that I didn't want the show to be renewed, who I would text and be like, fuck, or like I'm pissed or whatever.

Right. Like you direct that offline or even, you know, or you tell them to go to your social media goes to your friend or people you trust. To me, my number one takeaway from this rant is that she's, She doesn't have anyone in her life that she can text to be like, I'm dismayed. So she needs to put it online. Yeah. Twitter's her friend.

I think also putting it online is making it about you to a bit of an ex, you know. Yeah. Which like all actors and actresses do, it's like inherent to being an actor and actress. But to me, it's just kind of, it is indicative. It's a confirmation of some other things that were said. Sure. Do you think that she was trying to get fired by doing this? Oh, interesting.

Possibly. I mean, the real fuck you now would be to not fire her. They aren't. They announced today that ABC is like there are no plans to recast her. Incredible. So in a sense, maybe she was and it didn't work out for her. However, I do love a recast. I would have loved it.

The recast is so far out of favor, but it would have been really funny in this situation. It would have been funny. I do think it's funny to do kind of like the Suzanne Summers, like one minute, you know, make her stay and inconvenience it as much as possible, but she still has to be. to say no to things because she's under contract. I mean, that's, you know, like, that verges on another line of studio contracts that have historically taken advantage of people and you don't want her to, like, have no say. But, and, like, that's pretty punitive and vengeful.

And I don't want to be on the side of, like, a major corporation usually, but also that would be pretty funny. I wonder if they'll, like, change the writing, though, so that she doesn't have to act with as many people. Like, if she's, like, kind of when, on the good wife. Yeah, like, I was about to say, like, Julie Ann-Marie's. Yeah, the Archie Punjabi. Yeah, exactly.

Then when Kalinda basically was acting with no main cast members and Lena Heady this season on Game of Thrones, like basically not with the main cast. Like when that kind of thing happens, there's like an obvious rift. And it comes up in the writing. Yeah, that's true. I just love a scandal like this. The other thing is like this is fun because no one got hurt. Like this is just like people be, because one person just being out of control and kind of an asshole. Yeah.

I love it. I think it's really fun like like Billy Eichner and other people like who are employing. in the entertainment industry. They rarely pile on on other people, but like they were making fun of it, which I really did. I love Billy Egnor. He was just like something to the effect of like,

I need you to know. I'm not here for the challenge. I'm here for the money and stuff like this. You know, like people just like making fun of her statement and her sentiment, which I thought was great. Because they're also, in addition, to all of it, is really, she's being ungrateful for having a job and being employed, which is very hard for a lot of people.

It's a great job. hilarious. Yeah. Can you come back from something? something like this? I don't think so. I just think that for at least two years, like anytime she gets a new role she's mentioned,

this will be a part of the narrative for her. But I don't know, like, she's, how famous do you think she is? I think she's pretty famous. I'm not sure. I don't have a great handle on it. Yeah, I guess. I consider Gemma Chan way more famous,

but that might be wrong. That seems true, though. Some of that just seems like, but Kate Howell, being really into her, and we just hear a lot about her. Gemichand? Yeah. Yeah, maybe.

I think that she is pretty famous because she has, like, a lot of different, the ABC sitcom audience is probably overlaps, but is different from the crazy rich Asians. Yeah. And there was so much promo for Crazy Rich Asians. Like, just so much. It's crazy. They sold the hell out of that movie. I enjoyed it because Henry Golding is true, babe. I just want to say for a comparison on Instagram, comment.

On Susu, 853,000 followers. Jamma Chan, 1.1 million. Yeah. That's usually, for this kind of star, I think that's pretty a good indicator. Not all, but some. I think those are pretty close, though. And none of them are in the $5 million or $25 million range. Not significantly different.

Yeah. I agree. I think it definitely follows her for a while and with good reason, though you can already see it being twisted into the, you can like see the soft focus profile when she's in Vanity Fair and five years from now. And they're like, well, sometimes she, you know, people called her unlikable and hard to work with on set, which is what they always say to women. And that's true. But in this case, it's kind of out in public. It's fair. Sure. But I say one of the things is sometimes rumors like that or stereotypes like that start from a place of truth. And with her,

it's from a place of truth. Right. And it's hard because then everyone does. It uses an excuse. as we saw on Friday to pile on and talk about a lot of stuff. But I really do honestly feel the pile on in this case was not because everyone hates her. It's because, like, what are you doing? It was funny. You closed one Twitter, you closed one app and opened another. That's the thing for me. When you really got to take it to a second platform to share your bad attitude, it's on you.

Very weirdly, she didn't post the statement to her Instagram, which I thought was strange. Yeah, I don't know. So her social media strategy is also bad. That's true. I guess maybe you can't enlarge it as much on it's harder to read on Instagram. I don't know. I'd love to know what projects she's no longer able to do. I'm sure we'll find out at some point, don't you think? I mean, knives are out for her, kind of, which is tough. I wish she had just like said what it is, tweeted about it or something. Right. Straight from the source. I'm sure at some point that it will be revealed.

I've never read the crazy rich Asian book. So how big is her part in the second one? It's really big. I kind of, I don't love that. the second book as much? Don't they go to Beijing or something like that? Yeah, so I can share the premise. If you remember in the first movie, at some point she finds out that her father's still alive. She finds out that her true parentage and the story

of her mom and her dad. And the second book, they go in search of her dad. Oh, interesting. So it is like really centered on her. Oh. And then at the same time to keep it. So that's kind of there in mainland China doing that. And then in Singapore, the Astrid plot line, which is the Gemma Chan character, is a lot more central. Oh.

So those two can go their separate ways. Yes, sort of, except, like, I didn't really feel that they developed the Astrid, who's Gemma Chan's character, enough in the... Like, it was really just like, she should be able to shop and not have to hide her things. And then she stood up for herself and was able to shop, which is, like, definitely a part of... Maybe the second movie will be more hers because people don't like Constant's Woo. Maybe that's the other thing. I felt like people really liked her until this...

She's very good in the movie. She's really good in it. This is also one of... It's an unforced error because even if there are industry rumors or if she is, like, kind of difficult to work with, I don't think anyone who watches her in movies and television knew that or cared about her. that and she was very, very charming and crazy rich Asians. And then she just took it public herself. Yeah. I mean, I guess sometimes you can't help yourself. It's true. I don't know, but try to help yourself or employ someone else. Here's one more thing I wanted to talk about this.

Just why does she have her Twitter password at this point? If this is a liability, why does she have her own Twitter password? What's your publicist doing if not saving you from yourself? I just, if I had, I don't think anyone with this level of Twitter followers or this level of image management required should just willy-nilly be able to do this. It seems nuts to me. And I always assume that there is a team involved for most celebrities, and I think there is. But I guess a lot of them, it seems really nuts to me if millions of dollars are on the line for a tweet that you just are allowed to have Twitter on your phone. And I like, or Instagram or anything else. And I understand that like governments are now organized around this shit, which is a larger problem. That's the really

serious one without going too far down the thing. But I just, that's common sense. You got to have a buffer. I know. I don't, I don't understand it either. It doesn't make any sense. Do you think she still has her Twitter password? Definitely. That's a mistake. Although she hasn't really tweeted in the last couple days very much. So perhaps she's learned. Right. Final thing. Yes. She left the tweets up. I know, but she deleted some, but not all. The replies she deleted? She, there's two that are still up, but I think she, I think she did delete some of them. Okay. It doesn't make. It doesn't make. any sense. Do you think it's just for plausible deniability because that way she can say it was about something else? No, it doesn't make any sense. Okay. No, I mean, the replies that she left,

maybe I'm wrong that she deleted some, but I think she did. The two that are left are like, I don't know, they don't make sense. It's just one, actually. The other one is someone who supports her. She deleted the one that was like, it's not a good, it's not a good thing. She did deleted the reply, but the original tweets are still there. Anyway, You know, Constance Woo. Good luck. I'm looking forward to seeing what she does next. Maybe it's an ad-

Maybe this is the wake-up. Maybe this is an attitude change. Maybe she gives the passwords to someone else. Perhaps. Maybe someone else has learned. It's the intervention she's needed. Don't be an asshole in public. That's just hilarious.

Just don't be an asshole in public. That's the one takeaway. Do not be an asshole in public. I say good luck to her fresh off-the-boat colleagues. Yeah, that's true. I do too. Yeah. Let's talk about Taylor Swift.

Yeah. It's Taylor Swift season. She's back. I'm hoping this can be our one podcast. Do you think her album's going to be successful? Not in the same way that the previous ones were. Right in 1989. Those are monsters. Right. And I think that that's as much because of just how the music industry has changed.

And, you know, how young people have gotten older. And then there are new young people and they feel differently. As a side note, yes. Did you watch The Diary of a Song from the New York Times about Old Town Road? did. Holy crap is little Nasax charming. It's extremely charming. Total charisma. I'm like, let this guy, let's just get him a variety show right now. And also his producer, Keio from the Netherlands, also very charismatic. But Nas just blew me away. I wasn't, I like that song, obviously, but I just wasn't deep in the media related to it. And I watched that video like four times.

And I just like, wow, this guy is great. Well, the media related to it is the reason that it is successful. It started on TikTok and it is like as much about it. It's meme power, which memes require savvy and understanding of the... Savvy charm, emotional IQ. You know, you have to understand all of the social aspects and what people want in like a really, really specific way. So it makes sense. It's now the most dream song of all time. Yeah.

Number two is the In My Feeling song by Drake. What's that song actually called? I can't remember. I thought it was called In My Feelings. And then it's just Kiki. Kiki. Do you love me? I call it Kiki, do you love me?

Yeah. And when I was watching it, I was like, yeah, this guy's on the Drake scale. And he is... Which is, again, the internet scale. Yes, totally. The internet charisma on, like, getting it scale. And those are the things that are popular now and do really well. And exactly what Taylor Swift does not get, but is trying to.

So let's... Sort of. Let's just kind of skip past the Billboard Music Awards where she had this stupid Beyonce rip-off something. performance. Yeah, it was either straight plagiarization or total tone deafness to the point of plagiarization of... So she came out with the marching band at the Billboard Music Awards for her new single me, exclamation point. And there is like a big, it does begin with a big drum line. But the way she presented the performance was just too similar to Beyonce at Coachella and Homecoming and

just come out. It was just really tonally dumb. Right. Even if it's not a rip-off, need to know not to do that. Like it is indicative of her just not being in the mix and not knowing what's going on and not knowing that it was coming out like a couple weeks after homecoming on Netflix. And then it's just like it's either poorly planned. It's either a copycat or idiocy to the point of it might as well be a copycat. I tend to think it's a latter, but I don't really know. Yeah.

And we're going to talk about just kind of that out of fitness of this Taylor Swift thing. And I would agree, but to me, it kind of, it has the same effect. Yeah, exactly. And like, both in it's like, it's a bummer and, like, disrespectful to Beyonce and also is not helpful to Taylor Swift in any way. Yeah. So that kind of begins her current press tour that she's on. And then we get an entertainment weekly cover where she's on, she's on the cover of it. And she's wearing an outfit that I quite.

like, except for all of the flare that she's added. And she's wearing a denim jacket that has a ton of fucking pins on it. And we're going to break down all of them. But I just want to note, Amanda, that five days ago last Friday, after the cover had come out, Entertainment Weekly itself published a blog post that like broke down all of the quote-unquote Easter eggs on Taylor Swift's jacket. So like this whole thing is just so over-orchestrated. It's ridiculous.

And that's what's really the problem with, you know, switch right now that just feels so it's like not even a tryhard it's just like reading from a playbook that no one asked for basically and it's really old it's trying to be young and like trying to be hip and it's very hey fellow kids but still is really old like this is all happening because of an entertainment weekly cover which is just like no one under the age of 35 cares about that? And for some reason, like, Easter eggs are her thing right now. Like, she planted a lot of them on her Instagram before the launch of me, and then she had some in the Billboard Music Award performance. And then we got to this stupid cover from Entertainment

Weekly, and which here are the pins that she has. It's very exhausting. She has one of Selena Gomez. She has several related to the women of Game of Thrones and also other Game of Thrones characters. She has one of Drake. She's got cats, the musical that she's going to be in. She's got the Dixie Chicks. She's got a friend's thing. She has Troy Civan.

She has Grey's Anatomy. There's this one that's Track 5 that is related to her discography. There's one of Faith Hill. There's Mr. Rogers. There's Law and Order, pastel colors. And awesome, which is related to her new song. And, like, all of these are sort of like internet motifs. And, like, fandom motifs.

but she has just sort of like in the worst way appropriated them without any of like the honesty that comes of being a true fan. Yeah. I think that's true. And I think that that's what she does. She appropriates things. She sees that things are popular and tries to appropriate them too late and in a much less cool way.

That it also applies to like I hate me. We don't need to talk about the song. I hated the video. The video is really weird. But the video is also Instagram aesthetic from five years ago. Yeah. And it's like she's literally like five years late and is clearly trying to do a thing. Now, trends and coolness are ephemeral, probably useless terms.

And I think maybe it works for a mainstream audience. And I think that there are a lot of people who are still really into pastels and, you know, being like, oh my God, I'm a law and order fan. Like these things trickle down. and not everyone is like plugged into the matrix like we are. The thing I was saying about this is that I find all this really craven and a total lack of original ideas, which is just a bummer as someone who thought that once upon a time Taylor Swift had original ideas or at least like was good at writing songs.

I think she was good at writing songs and I think she had original ideas. I do think this is also a little bit of an indictment of like a pop culture moment and especially a fan moment. Like it's both really lame and. a mirror to people who are like, I really love all of these things. And my job on the internet is to yell about them really loudly. And if there is, if you say the words like Aria or Fleabag or law and order, like I will appear, you know? Even the idea of Easter eggs is an indictment of like Marvel culture. Yeah, Sean Fantasy wrote a great piece for The Ringer a few weeks ago about

Easterite culture as it applies to more traditionally male stuff like Marvel. But it's, it's true everywhere and that we are rankled by it is probably as much comment on how involved and like close we are to it. Yeah, we're so online. Yeah. And I think for a lot of people, they're just like, well, I actually do really like all of these things. And she does too. And there's nothing wrong with that. Which actually, you know what? It's actually great to like things. There's nothing wrong with it. I think it's when all of the fan culture gets so heightened and that you have to spend a lot of time in it. that it possibly becomes an issue.

Yeah, and I just think this is a real departure from the really winsome teenager and 20-something who wrote mean, who wrote all too well, who wrote Love Song, who wrote Should Have Been Me. Like, she had some real hits that felt like so, in some ways, the obviousness of them was what made them so charming. It was just, it was relatable. And I think you had a feel, even if she was like the character from, you belong with me who's the girl in her bedroom dancing. Like if that is like actually the closest to who Taylor Swift was, that was charming and like understandable and funny.

And I just feel like when I watched her performance at the Billboard Music Awards, I felt like really sad. To your point about it, like all being like five years ago, she's wearing these outfits that have barely progressed. Like this costume has barely evolved since her last tour. She's doing this choreography that is just not suited to, a 29-year-old pop star. She is, doesn't look comfortable on stage. And it's just so, the orchestration to it looks so out of sync with like a natural human being. And I just feel like she doesn't know

how to grow up. And it's really sad to me to watch. I find it kind of hard to take in because I really did love her music. Yeah, I think you're completely right. And you pointed this out a a couple weeks ago and I've been thinking a lot about it. It's very perceptive. It is kind of like child star syndrome as well. She became really famous. as a teenager for a very precocious style of music that still evokes being a teenager. Like those first couple albums, what's amazing about them is that she's able to communicate the experience of being young and having, you know, crushes or trying to work through some feelings in a really intelligent, evolved way.

But like that was her talent, was being like precocious and insightful. and it is hard once you've aged out of precocious. I totally. I think we both can relate to that. Yeah, totally. And I do think it's also very hard. She's 30. You know, that's like a sea change for a lot of people.

And you, I think you're always kind of trying to figure out what your place is in the world as you age, particularly as a woman, particularly when there's such an emphasis on being a woman in your professional life and the visual aspects of it. But so I understand all of that and kind of searching for a new identity. Yeah, I'm sympathetic to it. I think that's why I feel sad. Well, I am sympathetic to that if I thought that that was totally what was going on. Right. I think the other problem here is that Taylor Swift's fan base has always been teenage girls. I mean, and I think teenage girls and teenage girls at heart and teenage girls at heart can also include me.

Well, like us, but also men as well as, you know, they're like a lot of people could relate to it, but she has always had a fan base of teenage girls, which, like, who are speaking of fan culture, like, quite dedicated and drag their parents to a lot of things and spend a lot of money. It's just kind of like a guaranteed dedicated fan base. I'll never forget I went to a Taylor Swift concert with my... For the Red Tour, right? I went to the Red Tour with my husband and our friend John Caramanica took us. And right before the show, I went to the restroom and I came back out and basically realized that, like, my husband and John, two adult men were just standing alone in a sea of like 12-year-old. That's really funny. And I was like, this is not okay.

Like, I am your chaperone and I need to get back to you as soon as possible. But they are. She's for teenagers. And I think she is, has just decided that she's just going to try to get a new generation of teenagers because that's the soundest way to get money. It's such a bummer. I know what I think is happening is like, well, moms and daughters will always kind of listen to this stuff. And instead of trying to grow with her fan base is just trying to regenerate her fan base. Right.

That's my impression. It's funny. Like when you can think about the point with teenage girls, how it compares to, like, boy bands, they, the people in boy vans, with a few exceptions, like Justin Timberlake and some others, Ricky Martin, I guess, become irrelevant until they are a throwback. Like the backshed boys are having a moment because they've leaned into like being a throwback. But the members of InSync who are not Justin Timberlake are not having a moment. And like it was kind of like similarly sad to see them on stage with Ariana Grande. And it's just something more disposable of boy bands also in a large part because they never really wrote their own music. Taylor Swift was so much more in control of her musical fate.

Yeah. But she is just not really. I don't think she's found her identity as a 30-year-old or near 30-year-olds. offense. A lot of people have not. I was thinking about Katie Perry, who also targeted young women and the young women at heart. And you can debate whether all of her songs were appropriate for young women, though, you know, this is a sex positive podcast. So anyway, the point being that she was doing that and then has since tried to to age up as she ages. And those albums and that consciousness raising is not, has not equated to album sales. I also think she's made a really big mistake with this song in that if you're, she, it's written by her, Brendan Erie, who's the guy from Panicah Disco, who's voice I've always loved. And then the third writing credit on it is this guy named Joel Little, who I believe is either Kiwi or from Australia. And he's, he's got plenty of pop hits. But like if you're Taylor Swift, all of her successful first track from a new album pop releases have been written by Max Martin. And like I don't know why you don't go back to that well. Like this was like a songwriting error as well, which happened to Lord. Like it's, it's, it's, it's, It's actually, like, pretty pivotal. And if you look at, in my opinion, like, if you look at the women in pop who've been able to age up, they do it alongside Max Martin, like, namely Pink and Kelly Clarkson. And, like, you need, like, a firm guiding hand to help you, like, find your next sound.

And if Taylor's not going back to the country music, which I think I really hope she was. We all wanted this to be, like, the country return. Like the Joni Mitchell, the just, like, digging deep, I'm a grown up and I've got thoughts of them. Yeah. Because, like, I still believe that that's somewhere in here. But, like, maybe I'm wrong. Like, maybe it's not there. And maybe she is just kind of a business person and wants to be on, like, the troll soundtrack, like, Justin Timberlake.

In a lot of ways, it's like Justin Timberlake. And he's had more success, literally being trolls than he has, like, releasing his, you know, weird ass. Like, I went to the Woods album. Yeah. Which has anyone listened? I don't even remember, Man of the Woods. That's what it's called. Oh, I thought you were.

I thought that was the name. I thought it was funny. Okay. There was a real dissonant. I mean, I, like, watched this really closely because I love these stupid award shows. But there was a real disson in watching Kelly Clarkson belt out the song from a new family movie soundtrack and wearing an age-appropriate dress and being the size that she is now versus the size she was on American Idol, which I'm sure was a struggle for her. And then she had to leave the show and had an emergency appendectomy. But she was like an adult, she hosted.

She sang, to your point, it was like basically a song from Joll's. Great song. versus Taylor Swift, who's been as famous, not quite as long, but has been through like a sort of similar thing, who has not found her red gown that's age appropriate. Yeah, that's true. Though, like, it is a different thing. Like, Kelly Clarkson has always been a slightly more mature, like slightly adult contemporary, you know, American idol, more mainstream type thing. And, like, Kelly, there was a whole wave of optimism in the late aughts that Kelly Clarkson is not a part of, even though, like, it, we. We just, she was like a slightly different market.

Yeah. And Taylor Swift has been trying to compete at like the high level. Right. And it's really. And it's really hard to compete at that level and to stay relevant. So I agree. Like I don't know whether I think that Taylor Swift just needs to be like, I'm out. I don't need to be a pop star anymore.

I can just kind of have a successful middle grade career. But again, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe she doesn't have. have like the brilliant album and reinvention in her. It doesn't seem like that. She made a critical error not working with Max Martin or like Benny Blanco. Yeah. The other thing I'll say is that being a pop star has always required a lot of visual taste and ability, both dancing, but in terms of being able to put together great music videos and, you know, pulling off the clothes, like creating an image. Like imagery has always been

important, but it is more important than ever now. Oh, totally. With Instagram. I mean, that's just how Beyonce exists like purely through imagery at this. this point? Not purely. Please, she's a complex woman. Please don't yell at me. I love Beyonce more than anyone. But it's a, it's a important part of her communication. And Taylor Swift is just not visually. No. Not visually there. Her music videos have always been a disaster. Style has always been like ups and downs with her. She's not a natural dancer, which is fine, nor am I. Nor is Rihanna. And, you know, Rihanna is now no longer a pop star. She's turned a pop star into being like a fashion mogul. But it is, it's a particularly tough moment for Taylor Swift to be trying to compete in the space.

Totally. Because she's not doing what she's good at. And the co-opting of just so many things. We didn't even mention the rainbow stuff. It's just like, I don't know. Oh, yeah. Like taking the sort of like rainbow motif as like your own. No, I agree.

I mean, turning that into an Easter egg is like a whole, yeah, that's, it's not great. Tough times. I hope her music is good. I hope that the Dixie Chick's pin does foreshadowed Dixie. chick's collaboration. That would be great. It would be. You know, who's great the Dixie Chicks? I know. I've been listening to them a lot lately. They've got bangers. Yeah. They really do. Alrighty. We'll be back in two weeks. We hope that everyone figures out better PR in the meantime.