The Press Box - 'Bachelorette Party'—Heroes, Villains, and Alcohol With Wesley Morris and Amy Kaufman (Ep. 323)

Episode Date: June 21, 2017

The Ringer's Juliet Litman is joined by New York Times writer and former colleague Wesley Morris, a 'Bachelorette' newbie, to discuss the events on this week's episode. They examine the prevalence of alcohol throughout the franchise (2:40), Rachel's one-on-one date with Dean (7:17), Rachel's breakdown (10:20), Lee's shady ways (18:20), and the less-than-impressive spelling bee (28:05). Then Juliet talks with Los Angeles Times reporter Amy Kaufman about the return of 'Bachelor in Paradise' (41:05). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Before we start today's show, I beg you, please head over to the ringer.com where all week we'll be celebrating good, bad movies, from Conair to Roadhouse to White Chicks. It's the films that are so terrible, they're endlessly amusing, and dare we say it, actually good. Please join us as we give the over-the-top action movies, low-budget romance thrillers, and peak 80s cheese vests, the spotlights they deserve. Check it out, Good Bad Movies Week on Theringer.com. All right, and now it is time for Bachelor Party. Welcome to Bachelorette party. I'm Juliet Litman. Today I have my personal moral compass on the line, Mr. Wesley Morris. Hello.

Hey, Juliet. Wesley, I'm so excited to have you on this podcast. It just feels like perfectly timed. We decided you would do this two weeks ago. And there's a lot to cover. There's big news in the Bachelor world today, which is that Bachelor in Paradise filming will resume and the show is not canceled. We're going to come back to that. But first, I want to talk about. about last night's episode. It's Tuesday afternoon. Last night, we had an episode where Rachel picked up where the drama left off previously and Lee is causing a lot of problems. There was a spelling bee date. There was a blimp. It was a very action-packed, fraught episode last night. And I want to start by talking about Rachel's kind of a breakdown, talking to the camera where she explained she's under so much pressure. Um, first of all, Wesley, this is your first time watching the show, right? Your first season ever?

My first season where I'm watching the whole thing. You know, I've checked in and out of episodes, but I've never watched an entire run of a season the way I'm doing it this year. Do you find it to be onerous and tedious or like, do you enjoy watching it? Listen, I have a lot of questions for you, Juliet. Okay. Now, previously the out, the person I had been asking all these questions, I mean, it always should have been. you, but because I had a long conversation with John Caramonica one time about The Bachelor and, and friend of the podcast. I don't know why.

I geez, yeah. Well, not only in the podcast, just in life, I just, I just was texting him things. But now, I mean, I'm just going to send them all to you. Okay. Because I don't understand the amount of drinking being done on the show. Is this normal? Interesting. You know, that is really very relevant.

then I actually just wrote a piece for the ringer today about how much drinking has played a part in the store, everything we know about Corinne. And I would say that drinking is always a part of this show. It's just the level of obviousness ranges. Like, but for example, I think the last two bachelors, Ben and Nick, like they always had whiskey in their hands. Whiskey's become like the bachelor drink, although I think whiskey is like just like in right now with a certain type of man anyway. So in a lot of dating profiles I can tell you that. Oh my God.

Co-sign that one. It's like, why do I need to know you love whiskey? I know. I also, should I start telling people I don't love whiskey? I don't ever want to drink whiskey. Like, did we just like go both ways? I don't know. And as far as the wine goes, women have always drunk,

drank a lot of wine on the show. I wrote about this today. Last season with Nick, Corinne, was very often holding a glass of wine. and I always thought, I always thought, it showed her napping a lot or like falling asleep when everyone else was awake. And I just assumed the whole time, I was like, yeah, she's drunk. Yeah, I get it. I get sleepy when I drink as well. So I actually think as far as the show goes, the men this season aren't drinking that much.

And I don't, I'm never like, I can't think of a time in the four episodes where I thought to myself, huh, I wonder if Rachel's drunk. Although champagne was very central to this week's episode. Yes. And I think that I just, it makes me uncomfortable to think that the only way these men can be with this particular woman is to be drunk.

But I also understand that alcohol kind of facilitates the whole bachelor experience, the whole bachelorette experience. Yeah, I mean, there's kind of two prongs there. And one is like I am not a casual drinker, but I do like to drink when I go out. And like, it's just sort of like part of

part of socializing for so many people is just drinking. So in some ways it's very realistic but on the other hand it definitely seems like a lubricant in many cases and I think Rachel and Dean on their one-on-one even referenced how they were both for kind of feeling tense but having glass of champagne

took the edge off and if I've definitely had first dates where I was like really nervous and had too much champagne or too much of my signature drink the Juliet Baccossoe splash of pineapple. The Juliet baby! And I like I get that

I think it's just a little It's a little weirder to see it when it's the middle of the day And you're like have you guys eaten? Like what's like are do you have access to food? Like it's kind of like a little bit It just seems a little bit more risky because you don't know like what else what else they're doing or like if it's like you know Are they having enough water? Are they having enough bread? All these all the different things you need to think about and you learn about as a freshman in college I'm interested What like what was there a moment Where you're like oh they're too drunk

I think all the moments To be honest I think the only moment where I could relax In terms of how uncomfortable I was About the amount of drinking done In this particular episode I think the second episode Was also a little concerning for me

And I'm not saying this In a way that I don't want this to come off As me being a teetotaler T-totaler or anything But I'm also more interested in I grew up in a house Well, I didn't grow up in a house where people were drunk But I mean my father was an alcoholic

And And there's just something in my aunts were There's something about functioning drunks That is either traumatic for me Or just legitimately strange to watch Right And I don't know who Rachel is supposed to think Some of these guys are

based on the amount of time she has to spend with them when they're drunk basically or have been drinking. Right. Yeah, it's like it's true. I actually never really thought about that but like a good strategy would be not drinking that much if you like really feel like there's a connection there because their time together is so limited that you need to make the most of it and if you think about it like in real world terms you kind of have to like have a couple of dates that are like you're

sauceed up and then you kind of are like okay let's not do that like let's just be sober like let's just hang out and do something normal and regular but it's so condensed that you need to kind of like move from that that like fun happy go lucky vibe to more serious more quickly and I actually think that's why she enjoyed her date with Dean so much was because it did start I love the date with Dean interesting so Dean is I think is a real lightning rod he's not nearly as problematic as Lee who will come back to but I think she really liked her date with Dean because it started out fun and sauced up, like with the champagne and she spilled it and she looked so cute on that date. I love how she dresses.

She's a great style. And then it got really serious and like she really got to know him. And it seemed like she, I think she loved the serious aspect of it. It sort of was like she was sick of partying and like sick of pretending to know these dudes and actually was happy to have a serious conversation. Why did you love that date so much? Well, first of all, I had to offer a caveat about the date. Okay. When I'm thinking about sexy romance time with my boo or potential boo, my mode of transportation is probably not going to be a blimp, especially the good year blimp.

Did you know that blimps just landed on like one leg? I had no idea. I was like, is this a unicycle? I was really confused. I was like, what is this? So she says at some point, Rachel, about the blimp. She says it's literally like riding a bus. Yeah. I'm like, Rachel, it's not even close to literally like riding on a bus. Busses are sturdy. It's like riding on a blimp.

I don't know. She is from Texas, lives in Dallas. And as far as I know, they don't have great public transportation there. So I'm not going to hold it against her. Well, yeah, exactly. What does she even know about writing? riding on a bus. So I think to answer your question, what I loved about the Dean date was that I think the way

in which he made himself vulnerable was so, like two times I think he became a child on that date. Once in this fear of heights during the blimp, during the blimp ride, and then during the nighttime portion of their date where he could, where he talks about his, his dead mother. Right. Right. Yeah. And the second part, she seemed really like genuine and sweet. But she also kind of seemed like his camp counselor. Like she just seemed like too mature for him. Like the way that he was describing it was very, very sensitive and very sweet. And like obviously really felt for him. But it didn't seem like she was like empathizing so much as sympathizing, which I think is an important difference. It's a very crucial distinction. And I also think that she seems to me like somebody who's had a lot of therapy and he seems like somebody who's had none. It's so true.

And I think that like this, whatever he did in front of her was something he had clearly never done before. Right. Even if it was, even if it might have been rehearsed, it definitely hadn't been processed emotionally. It's true. Yeah, that's a really good point. I love when you can tell on these shows who's been in therapy and who hasn't. and you're so right about Rachel. The way they're able to talk about themselves

is usually how you can tell because it's either, you know, really deliberate or just like so in touch with very specific emotions they've obviously examined. And that's a great point. She obviously has thought through the ramifications of being the first black bachelorette. And let's roll this clip of her talking about

how much pressure she was under. The pressures that I feel about being a black, woman and what that is and how I'm going to talk about it. I get pressured from so many different ways being in this position and I don't I did not want to get into all of this tonight and I I already know what people are going to say about me and judge me for the decisions that I'm making I'm going to be the one who has to deal with that and nobody else and that's a lot. So as you just heard, she is very, she's very specific about feeling pressure because she's the first black bachelorette. But I was really interested in the fact that she almost like cut herself off

and didn't really want to talk about that. She redirected her, she redirected herself to kind of speak in the language that's more native to this show. And I thought that was, I totally understand it. It seemed like a real like self-protection move. But I thought it was disappointing. I was like, finally, we're talking about the biggest, most interesting part of this season, and she moved away from it very, very quickly. So I've got another, I don't know if this is normal for this show question. Yes. So during this conversation, she, I mean, I am calling it a conversation,

but during this confession, this breakdown, this on-camera, I don't know, introspection. Sure. So those kind of interviews are called ITMs in the moments. That's at least what it's called for the contestants. When you're the lead, it might have a different name. But they're supposed to, they make you do them like night of. So you're really tired. You're like sleep deprived.

And in her case, or in everyone's case, maybe having had some drinks. I just imagine myself at like 2 a.m. at the end of a long night, like having to like talk about how I'm feeling. And I would be a lot like Rachel, I think. less eloquent for sure. And yeah, so that, you know, those kind of moments of narration are essential to the show. Like that keep going. Right. So those seem normal to me.

I get those. What seemed abnormal were the cutaways to the producer saying, not asking a question, just like when Rachel is like, you don't know what this is like. There's, they include footage of the producer saying, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Right. Right. She was like, yeah, I don't. So I was very baffled by this breakdown, right?

Because you know, you're very smart, Julia, to point this out because it had not occurred to me that, I mean, I hadn't processed what was going on in terms of the way she stopped herself. Because what she says is being a black woman, period, and what that is dot, dot, dot, I get pressure from so many different ways of being in this position. and I don't want to get into all of this tonight, and she does not. Yeah, exactly. And then she moves on. And she's just like, I know people are going to judge me and you have no idea. And people always judge The Bachelorette, but it's definitely true that it's so much more loaded for her. I mean, also, who she ends up with will become, like, will become some kind of, like, racial referendum.

Because, like, if she picks a white guy, it means one thing. She makes a paste of black guy. It means something else. And it's just so much more complicated. and the show literally doesn't have a way of discussing it. Like there's no precedent for this and there's no like, there's no metaphor or platitude to lean on in this case. And I think that's why she didn't want to talk about it

because it's like it would literally be like forging new ground and too complicated. So what I'm struck by in terms of how you're seeing this, Juliet, is that you feel like she was going to say something really powerful and true about her being a black woman under all this pressure to, to keep the white guys on, to keep the black guys on the show. I've got a thought about that that we'll get to and about, well,

we'll get to you later. Okay. Although I just want to say, I don't know if that's what she was going to say. I don't know if she was going to go. I actually thought she was going to talk more about, like, how she is. Societally being a black woman?

I actually, I didn't get that far in what she was going to say, but I just assumed it was going to be more about, like, the newness of, of a black person being a lead on one of these shows, Bachelor or Bachelor. Okay. That's what I was assuming.

I think there's some deeper shit going on there. And I think she was fighting herself to get into it. But what I'm struck by is your understanding that she halts that real talk to then speak in the vernacular of the show. Right. Right. Yeah. And how she's got to keep these two. she has to keep these two modes of existence separate.

Yes. This is just crazy to me, by the way. This is another thing that, like, when she's saying you don't understand, I think that is a thing that people watching the show don't understand, which is like she has to be like a generic bachelorette contestant. Or, what do we call her? We just have to be a generic bachelorette. And then she's got to be a black bachelorette.

or not be a black bachelorette, right? Or whatever that would mean. Yeah. And whatever that would mean for her. And it clearly does mean something because you kind of feel her fighting at the whole time. Absolutely. And there's a third dynamic, which is just a black woman in America in an integrated setting where her race is clearly apparent to all participants and all facets of this production. Right.

Right. And then to compound all of that, you have this asshole Lee who I would smack in the face if I wasn't against violence like that. And he's horrible. He is, I, you know, I don't know him, but all the evidence I have about him makes him seem like a racist. So he's a racist on Twitter, correct? He's a racist on Twitter. He's also a sexist on Twitter. He was like, I've never seen a hot feminist or something like that.

he's anti-Black Lives Matter compared it to the KKK and he is just antagonizing Kenny and before him Eric for like really no apparent reason like at all and the show really

dances around it they have Dean who say like he's not comfortable around people and not like him or he's not used to being around but it's pretty obvious like it's just like no one is saying this is racially motivated but given the fact that you see Rachel talking about the pressure she's under as a black woman being the

Bachelorette and you see Lee just being so duplicitous. It's like what do you supposed to call it other than racially motivated? Like to not acknowledge it is almost like wrong. And so that... Well, here's... Oh, sorry, go on. I would say like that just that complicates everything that Rachel's

going through. I just feel like the show this is what is so infuriating about this show. Like, this season of this show is what I should say. I feel like the producers are simultaneously messing with us and 100% incapable of understanding what they have on their hands. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, and I don't mean that narratively.

They clearly know what they've gotten Lee, which is a guy they can now build what three episodes out of. Yeah. Like by keeping him around, by forcing her to keep this guy around. And I think part of her breakdown, to be honest with you, has everything to do with whatever she knows, whatever else she knows about Lee and being forced to keep him on a show that, and she knows that, like, black people or who, people in general are just going to be crazy when she sends home Diggy.

I know. And keeps Lee. I know. Are you kidding me? I like, I like Diggy. I like Diggy. Diggy is a handsome man. Great glasses.

He might have been a little boring. Yeah, but having not, but if you go boring or racist, I mean, boring with great glasses or racist. I mean, I think you pick boring. Not this show. No, not this show. Not this show. But they also don't understand.

But see, we don't know, Juliet, as viewers that Lee is a racist, right? No, we don't. We don't really know. We don't know watching the show that he's a racist. He's just an asshole who picks on black people. Right. Let's just give him the benefit of the down and be like he decided to play a character of antagonist of black men. Like, even that is, even if he's not racist and that's just like what he,

how he decided to act or he decided to like just behave in a racist fashion. It's just like, why, dude? Who wants to keep you around? Also, why is he on this show? Lee? I feel like. Because he wants to be famous. He's a singer-songwriter from Nashville who's, I assume his career is not taking off.

So this seemed like a fast way to do it. Plus, for every contestant who goes on, there's like at least a few thousand dollars to be made in club appearances and like Instagram promotions. But boy, is he mad. that he missed the Russell Dickerson performance. Oh my God. One of my biggest pet peeves about the show is the longstanding private concert. And then this one wasn't even private because there were other people around.

But like I don't ever want to be singled out at a concert. I'm not a good enough dancer for that. I'm not cool enough. I wouldn't know how to act. It does not. No, thank you. Like I would love to have a private box where maybe I could like sway, you know, on my own time. But I don't ever want to be singled out like that.

So, just to continue this Lee thing, I don't know. I'm really torn about what they think they're trying to do. Because now they've set it up so that Lee and Kenny are antagonists, right? I know. Like Eric, for whatever reason, it didn't work out for the producers. The tension between him and Eric didn't work out. Right. And Kenny, who is simultaneously super duper sweet and kind of naive, if not just flat out dumb.

Yeah. is upset because he thought that he and Lee had a friendship. I don't know where he got this idea, by the way. I mean, probably because Lee was nice to him, like, for the first, like, two weeks or whatever. And when you're in that environment, two weeks is, like, the equivalent of, like, real-time, four months. Like, that's really long. So you feel like you build a bond, and then he betrays you in some way. And the thing that I'm, like, already dreading is that whether it's just creative editing,

It makes it seem like Kenny gets into a physical fight next week where he ends up bleeding. And like maybe it's part of a challenge and it's not with Lee. But there's just sort of like this implication that their verbal sparring escalates even further. And the thing that's so frustrating is like not only having Rachel keep this guy around who she clearly doesn't even have any chemistry with, like just let him go, whatever. That then is being parlayed into like a like a real like physical oppositional relationship. Obviously it was oppositional already. But it's just like how much can this become a cliche? Like just how much?

And that's what's like hard to take in. It's easier to digest the cliches about women just wanting to settle down with men, I guess? Because as a woman, I'm just like more inoculated to that, I guess. So like I can like just digest this show very easily. But it's like it's less fun to watch like what could have been a groundbreaking season play out along the lines of like very predictable and like hollow storylines. I would ask, I don't understand why when Kenny went to, she has this one-on-one conversation with Rachel toward the end of that episode. And she's trying to explain to him what the deal is with Lee.

Why does she not believe him? Like, what is, what evidence has Lee shown her that Kenny's version of events is, is less than truthful? he doesn't I don't know for some we're obviously not getting the whole story because like for some reason there's something missing right yeah because there's no reason to trust Lee like that's what's so frustrating as as viewers we know that he's like duplicitous and a piece of shit and she's not being shown that side usually when there's a villain like this which is interesting this is your your first time usually when there's a villain like this the the woman or man whoever it is tends to really to be more women to be honest get kind of like an edit where you can tell that she is probably better than the other women in the house seem. But Lee is the opposite. He's being shown to Rachel

is better than he actually is. I didn't explain that very well. But basically it's kind of like an inversion where you want to root against the villain, obviously, because they're the villain. But with Lee, it's just like a whole different level. It's not like he's trying to get extra time with Rachel. He's actually not. He's kind of

being rude about shine blocking other people, but he's not that interested in her. He's just interested in causing trouble. And usually the villainy comes from a man or woman being too focused on getting with the main person or not focused enough like with Demario. So it's like one of those two. And he's just trying to cause chaos, which is like, you know, Bachelor Anarchy is like is also new for us. Not only are we dealing with race, but we're also having to deal with anarchy.

Yeah, I don't. I feel like it's unfortunate that these things are. Wait, sorry, can we back up for one second? I actually have to ask you another question related to the sort of groundbreaking aspect of this season. Sure. Do you think it's, like, ridiculous to even credit The Bachelor with Breaking Ground? Like, can The Bachelor or Bachelor break ground? I know, I know, I know, I know.

I should find a better word because, I mean, how many seasons has it been? And we're just getting around to this? I know. And now, because it took them so long to do it, it is a very, damn television event. Right. And also, I mean, I feel like I've spent a lot of time this season making fun of the show, which is silly because it's like, you know, my bread and butter.

But it's also just like, I'm just like, this is The Bachelor. Like, let's like lighten up a little bit. But on the other hand, I'm like, well, this is a big deal. Having a Black Bachelorette and bringing Lee in makes it just so much more complicated. It's hard to have fun when there's so many different elements at play. I mean, there's a couple. Wait, but I want to ask my other question. My question is, why couldn't they find higher men for her?

I don't know. That's a great question. I usually have a crush or like fall for one of the contestants. Like there's always like I always have a favorite every season. Very famously love Ben from Caitlin's season. And like I usually even have a woman. We know. Yeah, I know.

Usually even have a woman who I'm rooting for. Like I really liked Vanessa and I liked Jojo. There's like just really no one but Rachel to be invested in here. I actually, I was kind of mad. I thought they did a good job getting me interested in Dean last night. But the guys really suck. Like there's just not a winner. They're awful.

They're not a winner. There's no one that's really worthy of Rachel here. I just feel like they're just, I don't even know how much I like Rachel. I just feel for her more than I think I like her. I don't know why anybody will put themselves through this experience, no matter what your race is. I think anybody who goes in this show is crazy because the stress would just drive me nuts. Yeah, the unhealthy. I also like, I've been living in California too long because I'm like, God, that looks so unhealthy that lifestyle.

I don't want it. But, come on, having 30 guys fond over you, that seems fun for a week. You probably don't think it through and you're like, oh. See, I would have a hard time being a contestant. I don't want to fight 29 another woman for a guy. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think maybe that's more what it is. But I feel like the quality of men they've chosen just sort of insults her.

Very poor. And also kind of, it also. It also forces her to have to tolerate their low quality without being able to comment on how low the quality is. I know. It makes Dean seem like a fucking saint for whatever reason because the other guys are such bozos. Dean's not that special. He's not. I'm telling you. Another philosophical question, then we can move. We can, I'll do whatever you want to do. I just want to get all my sort of general questions out of the way. I'm having a great time. Thank you for being on this podcast. Okay. So another thing about this show that is really fascinating to me from a sociological standpoint is,

as a single person, you and I are both single, we sometimes go on dates. Yes, we sometimes do. You know how I basically am. Right, yeah. And I know how you basically are. I find it extremely fascinating to watch. I mean, and I'm,

this is going to sound like a contradiction based on what I just said, but these men are, these men are generally pretty attractive. Yeah, they're just not as good as I think Rachel is. I think the only one who I would say is genuinely. hot is Peter, but his stock really fell this week by how dumb he is and how bad he wasn't rapping. He couldn't spell!

No, he couldn't spell. And if you can't spell, it means you don't read. And if you don't read, I've got no time for you. Can't do it. Can't do it. There's no interest. But, Julia, a lot of those guys can't spell. I know.

They also might not be able to read. Oh, no. So, and thank God Dean avoided that challenge, because I want to, like, if I like Dean, I don't want to know that he can't spell either. Okay. So that means that the producers probably want Dean to go far or she wants him to go far because they didn't subject him

to that. Like that's like a gift to not have to be in the spelling challenge. Right. Yeah. So I just feel like these guys, oh, my point was just that I like the idea of an environment in which attractive men's

attractiveness is neutralized or obviated by how they behave over the course of however long you get to monitor them, right? Mm-hmm. So, for instance, people that I'm inclined to be attracted to on this show include such names as Iggy, who we found out was on steroids, maybe. He was added as being a steroid user this week. Unsurprising.

And who else? I like, is it Will? Yes, I like Will as well. Handsome guy. I'm very fond of Will. I also like Anthony. He went on the rodeo date with her, were they rode horses, basically.

Yeah, he seems fine. He's attractive. He seems boring. He went to Northwestern. Yeah, he does seem boring. But I like him because he played football at Northwestern. I'm in.

What else could I ask for? Yeah, that's fair. I like Peter, except not anymore. I feel like she's going to, I feel like Peter's going to go really far, though. Yeah. Because he's very sexy. He'll be The Bachelor.

Yeah, I think he's very sexy, and I think he knows how to talk to her. Yeah, he's the only guy who knows how to talk to her. Yeah, yeah. He seems like Bachelor material to me. Not enough there to win, but he's handsome. He seems like he's down for whatever. He just sort of is like, yeah, I'll do that, which is what you need from The Bachelor. Someone is just, like, very amenable.

What is the word he misused this week? I don't know. He misused the word toward the end to talk to describe Lee's behavior. Oh, he said disingenuine. That was what it was. Disingenuous, thank you. It's disingenuous. And he just doesn't, he doesn't know what anything means.

He probably hasn't read a book since he was in seventh grade. I'm so mean. I just, you don't read. I just don't care for you. No, but these things, Juliet, Juliet, this is, we're not, we're not, this is not our show. But I feel like these would be things that would be kind of disqualifying a little bit, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Of course. Of course. I mean, just a little bit. I would love to subject, like, all of the men I've, like, you know, fallen for to a spelling bee. I would just love to see who would win. I mean, wouldn't it be fun? Because some of the words really weren't that hard. They weren't that hard.

Yeah, he was spelling stunning at a late round. What is that? Stunning is as phonetic as it comes. Facade? Coitus? Fasade's a little hard. Coitus also phonetic. I mean, there's no excuse for you.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Juliet What? Facade is hard I mean it has that French C with the circumflex Okay but Julia I'm going to repeat for you

How Fassad was spelled On this show It was so dumb H-Y-S-D-E It reminded me Of the band The Farside and I was like Are you just really into rap music or something

It was really weird I just don't know how you get From Fassad to Oh, but it is like, well, now that I'm looking at it typed out, Juliet, it does look like facade. I mean, sure. But like when you hear fa, it's like there's a band in this guy's town and it's called facade and that's how they spell it. And bad on the band for tricking him. But yeah, there might be a band somewhere in L.A.

called facade and they spell it P-H-Y-S-D-E. Yeah, I mean, sure. But when you hear the sound f, unless you're like having the soup, it's with an F. Like it's very infrequently is that it's with the pH. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a word that starts with pH. That's like a middle of the word construction. So I'm sorry. Maybe he had a sister named Stephanie.

I don't know. It was just, it was so inexplicable. Wesley, I have a few final questions for you. Are you ready? Do you plan to watch this show after Rachel's season? Well, I think, so let me ask you this. I have a question for you. I know I'm not supposed to answer a question with a question,

but in order for me to answer my question, I have to ask you a question. Also, you've literally done that for every question. I've asked this podcast, so it's totally fine. So if the hook of this show, the reason it's so popular is because it is like a rolling snowball or like an avalanche or something, like you start watching one season and they choose a Bachelor. from the pool of remaining men to be the bachelor on the following bachelorette season.

Correct. Or the season following the bachelorette. You kind of get hooked if you like the guy a little bit, right? Yeah, exactly. That's what they're hoping for. They got to pick someone with a high Q score so they keep you coming back. Right. So I think if they pick like, you know, if Peter winds up being, although I can't imagine they're going to pick Peter, but who knows.

I mean, if Dean, I think Dean is going to be your next bachelor. I'd watch a Dean Bachelor. I guess I would too. don't you have a problem with him saying to her at the very beginning, I want to go black and never go back. Like, that's just like, awho. That was deep? Yes.

Oh, no, I forgot about that. Sorry, I didn't even, at some point early in, oh, man, Juliet. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but it's an important data point. What's your next question? My next question is, would you consider watching Paradise? No. Because. I mean, I think it's probably the more fun show.

But I can't. There's something, I don't like sloppiness. I don't like human sloppiness. And from what I've seen of that show, it's highly predicated upon people being really, really not cool. Like, just messed up. Yeah. Yeah, it's not, it's just, now it's just so complicated.

And actually, I'm going to talk to Amy Kaufman from the L.A. Times about it because like I just don't know why they're bringing it back. That's smart. That's not true. I have some ideas about why they're bringing it back. But well, I'll discuss with her. But it's so tainted now. And like there's enough to like work through with this Bachelorette season, which I'm

very harsh on. But like I, you know, I'm still watching it and enjoying it. Like obviously I'm still in. I'm still here talking to you about it. But Paradise is just so much more complicated now. So I don't know. It's a whole mess. Wesley.

Hey, can I ask you another question? Absolutely. I hate to do this to you. But you make a really good point. I just wanted to, we were talking about race earlier, and you make a really good point in your piece about, like, the things on this show that this show can't deal with. And I, you reminded me in your excellent story about, about Rachel and Fred.

And, and the, the camp story. Yes. And I just feel like there's so much going on way beneath the surface of this show that, in so many ways this country, it's like so much of like the stuff we can't actually deal with when it comes to having a black person in your life

and what it means, what race means in this country. And I don't, I by no means think this show has any obligation to engage with any of that stuff, but to exploit it in the way that it is is sort of reprehensible to me. I think that

is, I'm going to keep watching it. But, because I want to see where it goes, but I feel like this show is running like on a tandem track to the way the Unreal sort of lost its mind last season. Yeah, I mean, this is, um, everything that came out about Paradise felt very unreal, felt like it could have been the next season. And certainly, I think there might have been a little bit less outrage because of Unreal because it didn't, it just wasn't that surprising.

But you're, you're right. Like there, like there's so much bubbling between the search. And it's almost like Rachel's not getting enough credit for playing the part of The Bachelorette because we do see some occasional moments where she kind of slips into who she really is, who's like grappling with what it means to be in her position. And I think the moment with Fred where she says, like, I remember you because there weren't the many black kids at that camp is like one of the most honest moments that we've had from her and from this season. And I wish there was more of it. I think one of the reasons like the Lee stuff is so frustrating is because he's over the top that that it makes an honest conversation impossible. because you have to deal with him. And I'm like, well, we have to deal with him. We have to talk about what a dick he is instead of talking about how Rachel's navigating this and like maybe talking about something that's a little bit more nuanced. But it's just sort of like, did you really have to just play this like confederate game?

I don't know. It's just like, I'm just like irritated by it. Going to Hilton Head and Hilton Head Island and sitting under that big ass tree like that? You know what happened in that tree, Juliet. Yes. You know the history of that tree? Yeah. It just seemed, it just, why are you fucking with us like this?

I know. Let's just keep it in safe spaces. Let's keep it in L.A. Let's keep it in the north. Let's keep it in cities, right? But that's not The Bachelor. They go to, uh, they do that. They do do this, which is they go from L.A.

To like a more relaxing bikini friendly location next. And then they'll go like to Europe or something. So that's what we have ahead of us. But I just don't feel like they, it's like they know what they're doing and don't know what they're doing at the same time. And that is just, it's, it's maddening. Yeah. I think they're figuring out as they go along and there's not really like,

experience for this one. Anyway, I know you have to go. I predict riots if she picks a white guy, by the way. I'm concerned that's going to happen, so there's that. I mean, she loves Dean. Dean's the frontrunner to me right now. Yeah, me too. I think, but I really, we did not, nobody rioted after Philando Castile's cop

got let off. Murderer gets acquitted. But I, I, I, the super duper depressing to think about. But I think there'll be some real outrage if this show goes the direction it looks like it's going. Well, will you come back on at the finale so we can talk about it and do a post-mortem? Sure. I love this show, by the way. It's been a pleasure to listen to.

It's a pleasure to be on it. Thank you so much. You're my number one. This has been Wesley Morris. You can catch him on the New York Times podcast, still processing. One of a Webby Award, you can read him on New York Times.com and in the pages of the hallowed gray lady if you subscribe and print and wesley i will call you this week to catch up more okay talk to you later bye there's more bachelorette talk coming but first let me tell you about today's sponsors today's show is

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to break the news of filming being suspended back on June 11th. Hello, Amy. Amy? Hello, Julia. At June 11th, doesn't it seem like so long ago to you already? It does. Although I actually, so, you know, the news came out today that Paradise Filming is resuming. Do you know when it's coming, when they're going to start again? Well, it was initially set for August 8th. But honestly, that seems unlikely to me that they would be able to meet that premiere date because what are we almost in July at this point? That would be a very rapid production schedule. Yeah. Yeah, I'm wondering how they're going to make that happen. And so, yeah, the Warner Brothers did their own investigation and decided that there was not the alleged sexual misconduct was not what was claimed. And so they have order of production to return, to resume. And the show is not canceled this season and not at all. And now I'm wondering, Amy, how does this affect how you view First Paradise and say, second the entire Bachelor world. Well, you know, it's interesting. Going into even last night's episode of The Bachelorette, I was completely prepared to see the episode through the lens of all the news that's been

happening over the last couple of weeks and thinking, like, I would not be able to separate the allegations and the news cycle from my viewing experience. Surprisingly, I was. Like, I got into the episode and all of my friends I was watching with had the same experience. So I don't know if we're just living in this world where, you know, the news cycle is so rapid and people have a short memory that maybe it won't be as big of a deal when you're watching as I thought. But when it comes to Bachelor in Paradise itself, I think we're in for a super interesting season because obviously I would expect them in some way to address

everything that's happened. Right. And who knows if the two parties who were involved in the alleged misconduct will show up. And, you know, like, it just seems like it's ripe for a lot of questions. And they said in Warner Brothers had in their statement that they're going to be, you know, making some changes to show policies, though they wouldn't elaborate on that. So I assume that it's something to do with, you know, alcohol or monitoring the alcohol. Like, what do you think that the kind of changes they would make would entail? I don't know.

It's a really good question. I think that the way that the bartender became kind of like the teen angel of this show has to change probably. It just makes that a little bit less central. But I will say it's not like everyone drinks. It's just like, or that everyone's wasted. It's just like you can be all the time if you want to be. They make it, they don't force you to drink. They don't like, it's not like a rule.

But if you want to be drinking, they make it very easy for you. It's like, you know, for me, it would be like if you want to have a cookie, you can have one every after. for the foreseeable future, and I wouldn't be able to say no. Right, but I would sort of liken it to, like, you know, as we've heard numerous times, when contestants, they don't force you to drink. They're not, like, pouring alcohol down your throat, but you're in a situation, especially in Paradise, where it's in Mexico, where it's, like, part of the whole allure of doing it is that it's this layback party environment that they sort of feed as, like, a paid

vacation. Right. And you're nervous about being on TV. It's like. Yeah, it's a, it's an environment that is. is definitely enhanced by having alcohol around. So it's a big part of it, although even though they don't like pour it down your throat. So yeah, I think the first place you'd expect there to be changes would be the way that they incorporated.

And I also just wonder if the kind of format will change it all because it sounds like they cast it. From what I've heard, Paradise is cast in a way that they'll know that people will be interested in each other. So like, for example, I don't know if like they knew each other beforehand, but like let's say that the producers had an inkling that like Nick had been interested in Jen last summer. They would have cast them both to like make sure that relationship happened. And a big part of the claim here was that producers had decided beforehand that they wanted the two people who were supposedly involved in the sexual misconduct to like have some have some kind of fling or whatever. So I wonder if they're going to revise the way they try to craft the storylines and how that will change the show. The funny thing is like the

the relationships give the show structure, but it's like definitely not what everyone likes about the show. Like, I don't care that Jane and Tanner, like, found love to you? I mean, now I kind of like following their life. But now on the show, I'm like, you know, like you hooked up in two and a half second. For some reason, well, not for some reason. I mean, Bachelor in Paradise is, I think if, you know, production had stayed on track, it would have only been three weeks in entirety.

so it just seems even more, you know, rapid than the Bachelor of Bachelor process. So it's like even more difficult to understand how these people can fall head over heels. Although if you read that essay that Evan of Evan and Carly, same wrote for the Hollywood Reporter earlier this week, I thought he made some interesting points about how you're literally with someone there for like 24 hours all day, every day. And that probably has an effect. We don't. Oh, totally. Did you go to summer camp by any chance?

Yes, yes. When I was at camp, I did as well as a kid. Like the eight weeks felt like six months. Like it was just such a, such an, like you're with people all the time. It's so compressed. You're isolated. It just feels like such a more momentous and meaningful experience. And I'm sure it's very similar.

Plus, you're like an adult who is there looking for love and for dating or whatever. So I understand how that could happen. That actually makes sense to make sense to me. But I actually think the stuff that's more interesting is when they're just hanging out around the house and, like, seeing them eat and the kind of, like, really casual stuff. Like, I would kind of rather watch them basically have spring break than go on the fake dates because the dates are just, like, distractions from what's happening at the house to me. Right. Yeah. I wonder also, since this whole incident is called, like, the alcohol on the show, the question, how much we realize or don't realize that people are loosened up and that that's, um,

like them saying things as a result of that makes the show more interesting or not. And, you know, yeah, I just keep thinking that that's the number one thing they're going to have to tighten up. Like this last week I've just been talking to people who work on different reality shows a lot. And it sounds like different shows at different policies. Like some count all the bottles of alcohol, you know, monitor every drink people have. Whereas generally, like from my understanding on The Bachelor, at least in the mansion, there's just like a drawer. with the alcohol and you can serve yourself and you know sometimes producers drink with cast members so it's like a much looser environment that I can't imagine would continue yeah yeah that's a good that's a good

point like that I don't know enough and not enough to been reported about the interactions between the producers and the contestants but obviously at the heart of this matter was was that relationship and producers looking out for contestants and you just wonder if it'll become less familial and more professional and how that will change it. That's a that's a really good point. Yeah. It's interesting to see also like on the bachelor at itself and I was discussing this earlier on the podcast, I was chatting with Wesley Morris who writes to the New York Times and he was his first season watching the show and he was like, do they always drink this much? And it's funny because I don't think they're that's, I don't think the alcohol feels omnipresent in racial season at all. But to your point just now,

it does contribute to the sound bites that they get. And it's sort of like an invisible producer almost that we aren't, don't necessarily think about all the time unless it's like with, you know, when you see people holding glasses of whiskey or glasses of wine. But the relationship about... No, absolutely. It's... No, I said that the relationship to alcohol will have to change, I think, for the entire franchise,

like probably just from a liability standpoint. Right. Yeah, I think it's absolutely the way you put it is interesting, an invisible producer because, I mean, like, you know, just in researching for the book, so many people say that, and this is completely separate from producers, but that they themselves just drink all day because they're bored, you know, especially during the mansion, the mansion, you don't wake up thinking that you're going to get hammered that day, but like you're not doing anything and you start at 11 and then by 7, you know, who knows what's going on and you have to do all of your

interviews for the night and like you're just saying crazy stuff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I interviewed Ben and Lauren a couple months ago, and they were talking about how you basically, you don't have to start wake up. You don't have to wake up and start drinking, but you basically just do because there's nothing else to do. And like, you aren't a lot to watch TV. You can't read. So all you do is just hang and you're like, yeah, I'll have a drink.

Why not? I mean, it's even when you're, you know, in week five and you're in Hilton Head or whatever, you're just basically hanging out. So why not have a beverage? I mean. Right, yeah. And you're not in Hilton Head. You're still locked in a hotel room. I think people really, like, as viewers, it's hard for us to understand that bubble effect,

which is the number one thing contestants always try to convey to outsiders, which is like, imagine that you're just sitting in a room with no TV, no internet, no books. Like, your only friends are people you're competing with, and producers who are putting things or questions into your mind from the interviews. And it's like your only possible vice is alcohol. I mean, I can sort of. you'll see why you might drink for some entertainment or something. One thing I've been thinking a lot about, and I'm curious, your take on is so much of what makes The Bachelor appealing and Bachelorette.

And even Paradise to a certain extent is like it captures like a fantasy that I think a lot of people will never live out, nor do they really want to, but you kind of get to see it play. And with a scandal like this, do you think the franchise and its allure can withstand all of the information becoming public? Because it's almost like I love knowing how the sausage gets made, but to a certain extent it takes away from, for some people, I think for enjoying the show. And do you think that The Bachelor is at risk, or any of the show, it's Bachelor, Bachelor, or Paradise, are at risk for, like, you know, losing a viewer,

losing audience because so much is going to be known? Yeah, that's an interesting question. And I've been thinking a lot about it in the difference between, you know, the Bachelor and Bachelor, which are really the franchise is bread and butter and the spinoff, Bachelor of Paradise, and this new Winter Games that are coming up, because the main shows are very much sold on the fantasy aspect. I mean, you have the early episodes

where there's a guy who shows up drunk on the first night, and there's, like, the outlandish villains or whatever characters, but they're eradicated by the time you get to the Final Four and hometowns, and it becomes all about serious proposals and rings and love. And I think that's really what the show banks on, even though I think if you walked up to someone in the street and said, why do you watch the Bachelor, they'd be like, oh, because it's fun to make fun of the outlandish characters. But I think a lot more of us actually connect to the love story at the end than maybe we would care to admit. Totally. And that's why I think Bachelor in Paradise is even more interesting because it does not traffic in like that fantasy stuff.

It's just like, okay, we're hooking up. There's alcohol involved. Like, we're just going crazy. And if something more meaningful comes out of it, that's awesome. But so, you know, for a show that, like, pedals and that kind of material, how far can you go? Like, how far do you push it? It can be sort of sexy and sort of wild. But if you go too far, then is it no longer cool with ABC?

Is it not the Disney brand? Like, where is that line? Right. And obviously, that's something they're battling with now. I mean, how tawdry do you think viewers want it to get? I think that's a good question. I think one thing that's interesting here is that the question ultimately came down to consent, which is, like, not a sexy question. You know what I mean?

Like, just, it's not, it's hard to talk about. I find it hard to talk about because you don't ever want to question someone who says they've been taken advantage of or assaulted or abused. and so it's sort of like just such a challenging thing to talk about because these shows are so the Bachelor and The Bachelor are barely talk about sex except for the Fantasy Suite and then Paradise is so flip about it that when something really serious happens it's kind of like how they're handling the race stuff right now there's just not the vocabulary for it so it's very it's very challenging and so I think that like it would it would be better to lean in for the shows if they're gonna bring it back which they are. I think it's better to like lean into the partying and sort of the way that the

real housewives do it where they show them being completely ridiculous and getting into fights, but it doesn't get sexual. I do think part of the bachelor's success, and this is not really scientific, much more anecdotal based on people I know, but I think one of the reasons it's like also penetrated in the last couple years into the consciousness is because men like it. And that's true much more for the bachelor than the bachelorette. And so I, meanwhile, the housewives and then the Bravo programming is much, I know many fewer men who watch those shows. And so I think if they kind of like redirected a little bit away from the sex stuff and more towards partying and fighting, I don't know if it would be quite as popular.

That's just my, that's my own conjecture, though. I don't know. Why do you think men are drawn to it? That's just because of the, I mean, because I'm sure you've heard men make sort of, or a lot of men offense I have will make like, oh, this is your sports. I get it. Like, this is your football. And I'm like, is it?

But I'm like, maybe that's why they like it. I don't know. I think there is sort of like the game aspect to it now, for sure, all the fantasy leagues. I also think that couples watch the show together. I think that couples can kind of enjoy watching other people try to couple up in a way. And so I think there's that. And yeah, I don't know. I think also like when you have a show with one guy and 30 women that's appealing to some men.

and it's just like there's a very specific dynamic. The Bachelor is such a juggernaut. Like it's so funny to think that it is in the place that it is now. And like, you know, if you look at the Instagram accounts of like all of the recent Bachelor and Bacheloretts, like the last five years, they have millions of followers. Like they're so famous. That's more than most NFL players. And it's just like a different kind of celebrity now than it used to be. And I think that kind of if this scandal and then.

what the new protections that Warner Brothers says they're going to put in place. If that kind of redirects the show in any way, it's interesting for me to think, oh, what that fallout could be. We have no way of knowing yet. But I was just really surprised that they didn't cancel Paradise. Like, just really surprised. Were you? Same.

I was so shocked. Like, I was 99% certain that just from a timeline perspective, they would cancel it. Yeah. But, I mean, now that they're bringing back, and I do see a lot of reasons. I mean, first of all, it's a big gap. in a television schedule. It's a lot of potential advertising money, and it doesn't seem like advertisers are pulling out as a result of this news.

And also now they have a chance to address it and maybe have the people involved, like, responding to it. Right. I mean, it would be, like, it's hard to envision what this looks like, but it would be awesome if somehow there's, like, a teachable moment or, like, some kind of, like, frank discussion about consent. Like, as silly as that sounds for a show, like, Paradise. Like, I don't know.

Like, maybe that is possible. No, it's so funny. I have, like, a group of girlfriends who I email with about the show. And then one of them said exactly the same thing. Like, do you think there's going to be like a campfire discussion about, like, consent? And we were all like, yeah, that seems like a pipe dream. But, you know. I don't know if, like, Chris Harrison should be hosting that.

Maybe he, like, takes a course and he should. I don't know. But, like, maybe there is a way to salvage this to make it, like, a broader conversation. Because, like, how often is TMZ reporting on questions of consent? like very, very infrequently. That's not really their land. Totally. So.

And it's also, I mean, the fact that this is all surrounding sex is also so interesting to me because one, let's say this whole, you know, production had continued as usual. I don't, if, you know, what happened was as explicit as reports have claimed, like, I can't imagine that it necessarily would have even aired, you know, because that's the whole thing with these shows is, like, a lot of it is innuendo or. like it seems like a hand is going a certain way or they show a little bit of the making out and cut to like nature with some you know voiceover moaning sounds and stuff like and then when it gets to the fantasy suite we see a little bit of kissing and they close the door and you

know even though hooking up and getting together is at the heart of it like you don't actually see a lot of that yeah totally it's pretty it's pretty interesting um I do think that just in general there's kind of like a line that's been crossed I felt it with next season um And I think in some ways the network and Warner Brothers would acknowledge it that like that it's just it is a more, it is like kind of sexier now than it used to be. And this is very recent, like very, very recent. But I do think. Well, I agree with you that it's sexer in the way that like you, there's this weird thing now where it's like, and I think this is really what is at the heart of everything that's been going on. And then what we really need to maybe in the same way as the consent discussion is the same.

feeling that, you know, women and maybe men have that the only way to be loved is through being sexual, which is like a narrative that we see on the show a lot. Like, if I'm the first person to sleep with him or if I sleep with him in a fantasy suite, like that will somehow get me ahead. And that's, I think, a confusing. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Because like the bachelor and the bachelorette are so linear and they build to the fantasy suite that it like connects sort of like love with sex. and that is obviously part of it, but not all of it. Totally. Yeah, and that's a good point. It's like, it's just kind of wild to also be having these conversations about this show

because in some ways it's so frivolous. So, but as it's gotten. But it's not. Yeah. Exactly. As it also like, weightier things happen and they cast a black woman for a bachelorette. Like, it's like, you have to talk about it. And also more and more people are watching it.

So it's more, it's relevant. Was your experience watching The Bachelorette last night? tainted, so to speak, by all this? I would say I was so much more aghast at the everything having to with Lee, and I don't understand how he was unknowingly cast. I don't, that I was like... Can we discuss the Lee thing for a second? Sure.

When I was watching it with my friends, we were... It felt like they were doing a major editing job. Like some major discussion had been left out, because they kept alluding to... I feel like all the guys were alluding to... to stuff Lee had said and how he'd cross the line and da-da-da-da-da, but like we never saw that. Yeah.

We really just saw him talk. He didn't talk that much, or like to the other guys. We saw him talking to Rachel, to the camera, and then kind of like getting yelled at by Kenny. And so it was almost like he was getting a villain at it, but we don't know what he did deserve it. Right. And why do you think there's a reason that they wouldn't show him making sort of racist comments or something? I have no idea. And like, we don't even know what he said.

Maybe he didn't say anything racist. Like maybe it was just something completely different. But it seemed like they were implying that. And it was like, but we haven't seen the thing. It was odd. Yeah. It was really weird. And I'm looking forward to next week, just I think he'll probably be gone.

And I'm curious about how this is going to be ultimately resolved. But I found that so much more shocking and distracting than the Paradise scandal. But also, I might have felt differently had I known that Paradise was not canceled, like that it was coming back. Because I've just kind of like, I had just kind of like written it off. What about, I mean, what about you? Well, I guess you kind of mentioned. No, like I told you, yeah, I was. surprised that I didn't think about it as much as I did. But I mean, frankly, I've never been,

okay, here's my experience with Bachelor fans. Like, they're the people who like the first half of the season and then the people who like the second half of the season on The Bachelor and The Bachelorette. Like they like the crazy antics or they like the real falling in, the quote unquote, real falling in love part. And the people who at the first half of the season are generally, I think, like, The Bachelor in Paradise fans because it's almost like. Yeah, like people who love just the upfront nature of people being like, I'm not here to, you know, like get a Neil Landring. I'm here to just get Instagram followers. Like, they like the transparentness of that.

Right. And to me, like, that feels gross, Nikki. But obviously that it feels to a ton of fans. Right. I mean, it's like my thing is I usually, like, fall for someone, whether it's the lead or it's, like, a contestant. And I was mentioning this earlier to Wesley. And I just, like, don't have that. I really like Rachel, but I almost feel like she's being, like, muted in some ways.

Like, she's just, like, a really cool girl. And, like, in the moments when she really shines through with how awesome she is, I'm like, yeah, I love this girl. She's great. But, I don't know, for some reason, like, this casting is not doing it for me. So I think. It's not working for you? Yeah, I don't know.

The hard sell on Dean last night. Oh, my God. I think they really were going for The Bachelor edit there. I would prefer Peter as than Dean. Yeah, I just think she's going to pick him because he's so hot. He is really hot. He just can't, he just doesn't seem smart enough though. Dean's fine.

I don't know, Dean's 25. He's too young to be The Bachelor. Ben Higgins was 26. No, he was 27. Come on. Come on. No, I think he was 26 when he was on Caitlin. That's true.

I mean, like close, close. That's true. He's so much sure, though. Come on, Amy. Dean has seen personal tragedy as a youth. He's very mature himself. The Dean edit was, I think Rachel being so positive about him and also really liking how serious he was.

kind of made me like him more, but I don't know. He's not my guy. He's fine, though. He's okay. I don't know. Amy, thanks so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Juliet. I'll talk to you soon. Yeah, definitely I'll have to come back. And good luck with your book. Thanks. Bye. Thank you to Wesley. Thank you to Amy. Thank you to you guys for listening. I just wrote about this whole drama today, including the Paradise Scandal and everything around with Rachel's season on The Ringer. You can check that out at the ringer.com. I also tweeted it if you want to go to my Twitter. And I'll be back next week. We got two episodes of The Bachelor next week. So we'll probably post this on Wednesday instead of Tuesday. And thanks again to

Audible and Hotel Tonight.