The Press Box - Biden’s Veep, Ellen DeGeneres, Ira Berkow on Sportswriting, and More

Episode Date: August 3, 2020

As Joe Biden’s search for a running mate continues, Bryan Curtis and David Shoemaker break down the media’s portrayal of the potential nominees (3:00). They then turn their attention to comedian Ellen DeGeneres, who is facing criticism after two BuzzFeed articles pulled back the curtain on her popular talk show (32:10). Then, former New York Times sportswriter Ira Berkow joins to discuss column writing, Red Smith, Isaiah Thomas, and so much more. Plus: the Overworked Twitter Joke of the Week and David Shoemaker Guesses the Strained-Pun Headline. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

David, James Murdoch has left the board of News Corp, in his words, quote, due to disagreements over certain editorial content. What I want to know is, what particular piece of editorial content do you think was the final straw? Oh, man. Well, at some point he said he was going to test the feasibility of making change from the inside. I guess this is the admission that that wasn't going to happen. I don't know that there was one thing. I mean, is it any of the Tucker Carson highlights that we've discussed over the past six months? Tucker Carlson? What did I say?

Carson? Yeah. Oxoose does not have a Johnny Carson-like figure at 1130. I regret to report. I don't know. I don't know. Some people would put Tucker in that category. I don't, I think what interests me more about this show, and people are asking what he's next act is going to be, what he's going to do.

What interests me most is that, how he's going to do? What interests me most is that how we all feel like we have a much better understanding of what's going on at NewsCorp because we've watched Succession for two seasons. Like, everybody thinks it's just a one-to-one and hell it might be. Like, I don't know, but like... Maybe. I don't know. I mean, I have some very basic questions about this that I'm sure will never be answered. But, but yeah, I think at the end, I think at the end of the day, the one thing that shocked me the most, that I think my succession viewing is sort of explained is that that statement seems like a really.

really might a really low key rebuke to your family's enterprise if what you're trying to say is like f y'all i'm out of here but i guess when you see the sort of when you watch successioning sort of get a feel for the sort of uh you know waspy cordiality that like ever or just kind of everything is sort of low key but backhanded and loaded maybe that maybe that statement is just a real stinger to everybody else in the murdock uh the murdoch clan can you write F y'all I'm out of here on company letterhead? Is that allowed? Yeah. And I mean, listen, he can

use his new company's letterhead if you want to too, but I think he could pull that off. I think I would state it like this. Just caught up with Waters World. F. y'all, I'm out of here. This is the press box, a part of the Ringer podcast network. Hello, media consumers. Brian Curtis and David Shoemaker with a lot of great stuff for you today. First up, talk show

host and comedian Ellen DeGeneres is facing criticism after two articles in BuzzFeed about the work environment at her show. We trace a comedian's path through the media. Plus, legendary New York Times sports writer Ira Berko joins us to talk about column writing, Red Smith, Isaiah Thomas, and the boxer Jake LaMotta. All that plus David guesses a strain pun headline and the overworked Twitter joke of the week. But David, let's start with Joe Biden's search for a running mate, which will end next week. It was supposed to to be this week. First off, I propose that we avoid the term Veep Stakes, which has a U.S. News and World Report

1988 kind of vibe to it. Biden is down to five front runners, we think. Kamala Harris, Elizabeth Warren. That's kind of tier one. And then Representative Karen Bass of California, Senator Tammy Duckworth of Illinois and former National Security Advisor Susan Rice also in the hunt. though what Biden campaign source told political on Sunday that 11 women are still being considered. Beyond the politics, David, there's a fascinating media story here. Have you spent the last week like me trying to figure out who's ahead by the way they're portrayed in the various articles? There's a lot of different algorithms I think at play right now.

I'm not exactly sure. Explain to me what you mean by that. Well, I think this is the simplest one. the likelihood that Biden will pick you to be his running mate is inversely related to the likelihood you will pick up a phone when a reporter calls to ask you about your chances. So the more the more available you are, the less likely you are. Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right. I'll go with that.

It would just follows common sense because if you're Kamala Harris, who by the way, has not been picking up the phone, you're like, I've got a really good shot at this. I don't want to have an interview with some weird gaff or some problem that knocks me out. But if you're Karen Bass and you were a very long shot contender seemingly a couple of months ago and you want to gain ground, you do interviews, right? And maybe try to make up some of the distance between you and Harris. Does that make sense? Yeah, that totally. That fits into whatever political game theory pretty nicely, I think.

Yeah, Duckworth, Rice and Bass. both been appearing on Sunday shows, giving comments to newspapers and magazines, basically lobbying for themselves in public. Harris and Elizabeth Warren almost saying nothing. Big story media-wise this week was clearly something is afoot with Team Biden, or I should say elements in Team Biden to warn him away from Kamala Harris. Big Politico story last Thursday by Natasha Karecki, Christopher Codalago. I hope I'm saying that right.

Mark Caputo. Story was this, David. Chris Dodd, former senator from Connecticut. who's helping Biden asked Kamala Harris about her famous attack against Biden on busing in that debate

way back when. Quoting here from Politico Harris laughed and said that's politics. She had no remorse. Dodd told a long time Biden supporter and donor who relayed the exchange

to Politico on the condition of anonymity. Dodd felt it was a gimmick that it was cheap, the donor said. The person added that Dodd's concern about Harris were so deep

that he'd helped elevate Karen Bass during the vetting process, urging Biden to pick her because, quote, she's a loyal number two, and that's what Biden really wants. And didn't that story set off a giant firestorm this week? Of not only media lobbying, but I felt like sort of reverse recriminations

and anti-media lobbying. This is, I mean, there's always two ways to look at this stuff, right? And especially in this situation. I mean, should Kamala Harris be formally apologetic to look like she's groveling together? this nomination? Or is it much more appropriate for her to just be like, to take the that that's politics route because her job as vice president, I mean, as candidate for vice president is going to some extent going to be, you know, hatchet person, you know, I mean, she's that she's

going to need to be as remorseless as, you know, any good state prosecutor should be. Yeah, I could just as easily see her argument being like, wait a second, don't you want me to to do that to Mike Pence? Yeah. In the vice presidential debate, don't you want me to have like a viral moment where I leave him tongue tied? Mm-hmm. And completely unprepared for an attack.

And that is not to mention, as you just said, the unsavory sort of resonance of this whole thing of, why isn't Kamala Harris appropriately apologetic to Joe Biden for running for president? That said, there is clearly something happening within the Biden camp about it. Kamala Harris right now. It may be nothing. It may be that some people think that Biden is going to pick her right. And this is the chance to somehow put these doubts out there not only to Biden himself, but into public. But there is something happening at some level, big or small, with Biden and Kamala Harris. Listen, this is nothing new. We see this every cycle and actually more frequently than that.

And maybe I'm just sort of, you know, I've been driven mad by the past four years. But it does seem be, if not unsavory, which is, I guess, part for the course, like just politically unnecessary to be using media to contact your candidate in the way that everyone that works for President Trump has to do, right? I mean, doesn't that, I mean, because that's clearly what's going on. We can argue over the sides. We can argue over the objectives. But that's clearly what's happening here. I mean, everything that we see is being planted for some good reason. Yeah, do you see John Favreau, former Obama speechwriter, podcast superstar. He tweeted. He tweeted. He tweeted, tweeted last week. He said, you know, you don't have to answer the DM from the reporter when they, if you're in the Biden camp, when they call to ask you about what you think about the vice presidential process, to which I would say, please don't not answer the DM from the reporter, right? You're right. Politically, you don't have to do that. Journalistically, we would like to encourage everyone to just talk as much as humanly possible. We want information. We don't. We don't

We don't want anybody clamming up. I guess the question, though, is it like, to what degree is it information? I mean, obviously it's like content, but is it information? I mean, is it like, are we learning anything from this? So that's the question, right? When something like this gets out, are we learning something useful as reporters and or media consumers? Or are we just getting something that's like so agenda driven and slanted that it's actually, you know, sort of like, clouding our minds about the vice presidential selection.

Uh-huh. I mean, enough when this stuff about Harris is being said, I have seen super legitimate reporters say by enough people that it's not nothing, right? It's, it is worth noting that this is happening within the Biden team, even if he ultimately picks Harris. Like that seems important to know. These questions are being asked. Yeah, that there are people within team Biden that, that are skeptical about Harris.

And again, I'm not, I'm not saying that's right or wrong. And again, at least in the way it's phrasing, it seems pretty cuckoo. But I guess that's useful to know. But then how much does that just overwhelm, let's say, what the consensus is? Maybe there's an 85% consensus that, yes, Harris is the best choice. She is absolutely the best choice. I will add this too, David. The press, which has thought about a lot of these candidates for months,

clearly flat-footed on Karen Bass, a name we had not heard much at all, and starts digging into her background. Well, guess what? There's a video of Karen Bass saying vague, complimentary things about Scientology at a ceremony for the reopening of a building in 2010. Bass has come back and said, this is before much of the reporting on Scientology that has, quote, exposed this group. The Atlantic's Edward Isaac DeVier reported on Friday that Bass, quote, spent part of the 1970s working construction in Fidel Castro's Cuba with the Vensaremos Brigade, a group that has organized trips, annual trips to Cuba for young leftist Americans for half a century. Bass has now come out and backtracked on statements she has made about Castro, saying in effect,

no, you do not got to hand it to Castro. There's that. Then there's this whole thing that Biden is going to be 82 years old when he runs for re-election, if he runs for re-election. There's this whole sort of subplot, right? Does Joe Biden want to anoint his successor? or does he want to pick somebody like Karen Bass who has come out and said, I don't want to run for president and therefore sort of leave it open to a whole host of candidates in 2024? So wait, the presumption being he's regardless going to make the implicit statement that he's a one-termer by the way that he chooses not his VP,

but it will either be this is the team for the next eight years, even though I won't be here the next for the following four, or he's going to pick a vice president where they both. both project this is a one-term deal? There's, yeah, pretty much. I mean, there have been a lot of head nods from him, right, that I may just go one term. And then the question is, first of all, dude, you got to win in November. First of all, let's not get past the small matter of the November election.

But then also, should you really be playing 4D chess to try to tell us who the nominee is going to be? Or should you just pick somebody who's going to help you win and deal with that immediate task? I think the latter. I mean, I think that it's, especially as we kind of barrel towards the general, we're getting out of the sort of weeds of primary season where we had a lot of, a lot more time and, and pre-coronavirus, a lot more time and mental investigative or journalistic energy to spend on those sorts of semi-inane gotcha questions, or lines of questioning. And I, and I think that, At this point, he just needs to have a pat answer ready for the debate. But it really, I think bringing it up now only underlines the problem half of it.

I agree. I really do. A couple more notes to leave you with this. New York Times notes that Trump has been flailing around trying to find a nickname for Biden or any charge that will really help him make up ground in the polls. And so part of the vice presidential selection, the none dare call it a veep stakes, is that you don't want to pick a running mate that then just, offers a ripe target to Trump.

If you've been, you know, bobbing and weaving as Trump's tried to hit you, you don't want to then offer somebody else up that's just tons and tons of nicknames and oppo research. So obviously Biden is thinking about that at some level. The other thing I think I would just say is that what we're seeing in the media, is it not, is a tiny snapshot of what is happening privately? People are lobbying Joe Biden like crazy, including, I think,

the candidates themselves. so then we get a tiny snapshot of that process in the press. And if it seems super crazy and super intense, it's because it's super crazy and super intense behind the scenes, don't you think? Absolutely. This stuff is either, you know, planted or it just, you know, trickles out because we're at maximum capacity of whatever backstage goings on there are

and often both things at the same time. But yeah, I mean, there are, I don't know. I just feel like they're trying to thread a thousand needles right now. And even trying to answer a simple question from wherever we're sitting, nothing's that easy. We, you know, we, in this podcast, I've had two or more takes on every question that we've asked, right? I'm here looking at the list. I mean, Politico has a tracker up, which doesn't do a lot to actually answer any questions about what the vice presidential pick is going to be. But I was just wondering, like, looking at the polls, if the polls are correct, if the Biden can't, believes the polls are correct. If, you know, as was reported today, the quickly approaching

window for early voting is going to spell potential doom for the Trump campaign. If all these things are true and you would think, well, the Biden campaign just needs to go with the safe pick, right? The safe pick. What does even, what even does that mean, right? Is it, is this, is the safe pick, Kamala Harris, because she's got the best, you know, cue rating or whatever. and is the is the is the is a safe pick i mean i can't even i mean is it karen bass because she's like so unknown that she can't possibly well maybe not after what you've been talking about but you know is it is it a you know kisha lance bottom is it somebody who has just like you know a decent favorability rating but mostly a never no one's ever heard of her right i mean is that the way to go it's it's just

impossible to tell totally and totally and and anybody anybody could turn as we've seen and numerous times, right? Anybody could turn into a net negative or just kind of a non-entity like Tim Kane was four years ago. I think you could argue non-entity. I mean, you could argue that in a bunch of different directions, right? I mean, I think I heard a lot of people, at least in the post-mortem, say that it was, you know, it made Hillary look like she was worried about taking someone on who had more charisma than her. So, you know, there's a lot of, there's a million ways you can look at everything, right? And regardless of the safety of the pick and regardless of the polls, regardless of the genius, potential genius of the pick.

It's going to be dissected in every different direction, I guess. And that's probably what's making him take so long right now. They're just gaming it out. When you use the phrase threading of needles, that's what those interesting things to me, because I think as reporters, that's what we're doing, right? We're trying to, like, just figure out all these things. Has anything Joe Biden said or done in his campaign so far evoked the phrase threading of needles to you? No, right?

He just seems like he's just kind of being Joe Biden or being Joe Biden in very limited amounts. Sure, but he did, you know, he did start talking about the potential for one term before he even got in the race, right? A lot of these conversations happened before he got in the race. Yeah, it made its way in articles. Again, you know, he was born out to be true

or as true as anything can be right now. And so, you know, there had to be some truth to it at that point. He, you know, said he was going to have a female vice. president, certainly before he needed to. There was no obligation for him to say that. So he's setting his own parameters to a certain extent. But you're right. I mean, the Joe, the Biden campaign is not exactly meticulous, but they, but they are setting, I mean, my guess is that this is a meticulous process. And, you know, I don't think he's boxed himself in with either of those considerations or anything else, but it's got to be part of the discussion. You know who the

winners are of this. Everybody writing a campaign book because we could see a campaign dude that is like right now what Biden plus nine basically just truck on ahead and wind up as Biden plus five or Biden plus four and not have a lot of shall we say like back and forth, you know, gripping chapters and narratives. But guess what? Chris Dodd just got a whole chapter in the campaign book. Chris Dodd. mission to undermine Kamala Harris. That just became a whole chapter. Yep.

That's absolutely true. I mean, this is the stuff those campaign books are made of. There's so much going on right now, though. I mean, it's so hard for us to take a breath to find a segment on the show to really concentrate on this. The world is bonkers right now. And I wonder to what degree these such books. I mean, this is inside baseball to some into the endth degree. But I wonder to what degree these campaign books are going to be traditional campaign books this season.

That's another press box. segment that we will do some time. All right, David, time for the overworked Twitter joke of the week where we celebrate a gag that was so obvious that all of media Twitter made it exactly the same time. Send your nominees to at the press box pod where they are always gratefully received. David, let's start with some breaking wrestling news. The Rock, aka Duane Johnson, is part of a group that has bought the spring football league, the XFL.

Oh, my gosh. Big news for David's other podcast about a lot of good jokes. about a lot of good jokes for this one. Is this an episode of Ballers? Finally, the Rock has come back to pro football. And this is my favorite. It doesn't matter that the XFL has collapsed twice. There's got to be a joke in the old like,

like he hate me in XFL thing. We're like it literally doesn't matter what your name is. You could just put whatever you want on the back of your jersey. Oh, that's really good. Check at David Shoemaker for that gag. And listen, I don't know if I am embarrassed or proud to admit that I've never actually watched ballers, but I am informed that this is actually a plot in ballers. I think that he, I think that the Rock's character tried to go against the NFL at some

point. I could, I could be totally wrong about that. Thanks to our friends, Hugh Hopkins, Allen Corridor, WWE Trivia, T.O and Jess Anderson for sending that in. In other news, David, Tropical Storm Isaiah is bearing down on the Carolinas where it may become a hurricane. It was an overworked Twitter joke to sigh and write, oh, a hurricane. moving up toward the U.S. So on brand for 2020. Thanks to Fox's Shane Bacon. There's this whole category of overworked Twitter jokes now.

They're just a bad thing is happening to us. How typical. That is that we need to give that a name. And finally, David, the Lincoln Project, aka those Republicans who make clever ads against Trump, posted a picture of the Trump children on Twitter, Ivanka, Eric, and Don Jr. And they said, name this band.

a lot of funny responses, as you might imagine, but my favorite was from our old friend and colleague, Trayvon Free. Are you ready? Mm-hmm. Lady anti-BLM. Oh, give that man the crown. That's fantastic.

If you kept the Lady A jokes alive for one more week, God bless you. And congrats, you made the overworked Twitter joke of the week. Before we do the notebook dump, David, let us pause for a brief commercial break. David, if you've been dealing with acne, redness, dark spots, or wrinkles, finding treatment that works can be complicated. You need skincare that actually performs, but getting started can be overwhelming.

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Go to get roman.com slash press box to try out a three-month supply of nightly defense for just five bucks. It's free to chat with a doctor and your first order is just five. That's get roman.com slash press box eligibility requirements and additional terms apply. All right, David, in the notebook dump, you sent me a piece in the Washington Post by Emily Yarb about Ellen DeGeneres. DeGeneres has been heavily criticized after two BuzzFeed stories described what they call the show's toxic work environment. But this is also a media story because DeGeneres, as Emily Yard points out, this very good story, has had two years of what in the old days we'd call bad press. But today is more like stuff that you and I kind of saw or half saw on Twitter and seeped

into our minds. And I don't know about you, but I had this just feeling even before the BuzzFeed stories came out of just like, man, I'm really disappointed in Ellen DeGeneres. And I couldn't have even told you why. It was just sort of osmosis. Somebody I liked or thought I liked and now I don't. The Ellen show I learned in this article has been on the air 17 years, which is pretty amazing. Her sign-off has Be Kind to each other, which is reminiscent of the Jerry Springer sign-off.

The first stage of this, David, was people calling out Ellen on television. This is from last November. Ellen had actor Dakota Johnson on the show. Listen to a little bit of this awkward exchange. It's good to see you. It's good to be too. When was your birthday? It was October 4th.

October 4th. You turned 30. I did. And how was the party? I wasn't invited. Actually, no, that's not the truth, Ellen. You were invited. Last time I was on the show, last year, you gave me

a bunch of shit about not inviting you. But I didn't even know you wanted to be invited. Well, who didn't even know to be invited to a party? Well, I didn't even know you liked me. Of course I like you. You knew I liked you. You've been on the show many times, and don't I show like? Yeah.

But I did invite you and you didn't come. This time you invited me? Yeah. Are you sure? Yeah. How do you know? I don't think so. Ask everybody. Ask Jonathan, your producer.

Who said you were. I was invited? Why didn't I go? I don't know. Was it, was it? You're out of town. Oh yeah, I had that thing. A little bit of 1980s David Letterman

edge to that interview, is there not? Yes, totally. That was, I mean, okay, she's been doing this for 17 years. I'm sure a lot of this is just off the cuff at this point, or, you know, just automated. And it all always works out, right? But this is just so strange. Like, if this happened on, this feels like season,

like season one of Jimmy Kimmel where they didn't know what they were doing and like Snoop Dog was there you know like I don't and it had this like great incredible energy to it but that's not what Ellen is right it's not this like

antic anything could go anything could happen and it probably will energy and she's not trying presumably she's not this is the crazy thing presumably she's not trying to make Dakota Johnson to ruin this interview right

so the best case scenario is almost that she was I guess that she could be joking about it and Dakota Joe, but she was not prepared for the answer. It just seems like she's kind of trying to bully Dakota Johnson under the guy behind the shield of like that Dakota Johnson can't come back at her on on her own stage. It's very sure. And then it made it to air, which is even weirder. Yeah. And I was impressed they left it in to to the credit of the Ellen show. Yeah. And just think what Dakota Johnson is saying there in so many words. Like you got mad last time I

was here because I didn't invite you to my birthday party. And then I did. And it turns out what you were saying before, it was a total bit because you didn't even come. So you weren't actually mad. You don't actually really seemingly want to be my friend. I mean, that was the that was the undertone. The other thing about Ellen that Emily R points out has happened is people have started to talk about her as, wait, you're more of an ambassador to famous people than you are someone who stands up for what they believe in. January 2019, she had Kevin Hart on the show after Hart had lost his Oscars hosting gig for homophobic tweets. Ellen, as Yard Wright, seemingly forgave him, called his critics, haters, was a little too easy on him for some people's tastes. October 2019, you'll remember this,

David. DeGeneres is shown at a Dallas Cowboys game sitting next to George W. Bush. Having a good time with George W. Bush. She addressed that on the show a few days later. But a lot of people were mad and they did what people do when they're mad. They tweet and, but here's one tweet that I loved. This person says, Ellen and George Bush together makes me have faith in America again. Here's the thing. I'm friends with George Bush. In fact, I'm friends with a lot of people who don't share the same beliefs that I have.

We're all different and I think that we've forgotten that that's okay that we're all different. Yeah, that's all fine. I mean, I think at the time we all knew this was a little bit overblown, although it was another sort of drop in the bucket, right? And I guess it's more shocking for her to say, oh, you know what? I'm friend. Is it more shocking that she's friends with George W. Bush? Not that I was laughing with him in a skybox, but I'm friends with him.

Yeah, that was just surprising to me. And to not address the LGBTQ rights issues inherent in this at all, was sort of, seems sort of odd. But I think to me, it's just, listen, she's a talk show host. This was the appropriate place for her to address it. But, and we all, and celebrities and all human beings, you know, address these things in the way that is probably that, that, that, you know, gives them the best audience for their apologies.

But there is something just inherently funny, I guess, about doing it literally in front of an audience who is literally who who is literally whooping for you as you're giving your apology to the world. You know, I mean, it's, well, I mean, it's literally staged, I guess. Well, we should also note that this criticism of Degeneres is basically the opposite of the first one. The first one was, she's not very nice. the second criticism was she's too nice to George W. Bush. That's actually the opposite thing, which is really interesting.

A couple more. There was a couple more tweets about her and all this kind of stuff. Then the reporting comes in. A pair of BuzzFeed articles by Christy Lee Yandoli. She wrote in one of them that the office that is the office of the Ellen show is a place where sexual harassment and misconduct by top executive producers runs rampant. Ellen released a statement about that. Actors like Brad Garrett and Leah Thompson,

David tweeting out criticism this week of DeGeneres, not something I expected to read. And then, of course, inevitable endpoint is a British tabloid saying that Ellen's show, Ellen on her show could be replaced by James Corden at any moment, which feels like just kind of the obligatory like tabloid story, whether that actually happens or not. I think one thing,

I mean, I think on the one hand, we can put into one category the stuff in BuzzFeed that was happening behind the scenes on the show, because that's gross and no one and any workplace should have to endure that kind of treatment. Of course. There is this other thing that's happening here, too, that I think is a little bit separate, which is that essentially there are expectations of how somebody who is on a daytime talk show should be, should act. is there not that are different from somebody in another format. Like David Letterman was an asshole for years and years and years and years and applauded for being an asshole, right?

But there's some expectation that if you're doing the daytime talk show thing, you're not allowed, you're just not allowed by the audience to be like that. Is there something there, do you think? Well, yeah, on-screen personas are obviously not the same as off-screen personas. But, I mean, I mean, think of all the, you know, TV shows, cartoons, movies and stuff we've seen over the years of the talk show host or whatever, where the cameras turn off and they go from smiling to, like, smoking a cigarette and slapping their assistant or whatever. I mean, that, that in itself is a sort of trope that I think we're interested in. And certainly it's a, I don't know if it's a betrayal, but the dichotomy is going to be interesting. I mean, I remember for me, I don't know if this was certainly not the first time it popped up in my radar,

but journalistically when the stories came out at the very beginning of the coronavirus quarantine, where she was filming the show, I'm going to get some of this wrong, but she was filming the show, I guess, from her home, but was like not exactly union busting, but using some like different camera people or producers or whatever than her normal crew who she can, you know, publicly considered her family and sort of leaving everybody else in the lurch. And that's when I, I remember reading that little story, and there wasn't a ton there, but thinking like, oh,

this is when the, like the rest of the journalists start moving, right? They spring into action. They're like, there's something going on here. There's a story, there's a story that can be told,

and especially if you look at like the BuzzFeed pieces, which are fantastic, you know, there's a lot of outlets like that that would be willing to publish that piece if it were half of what it was, right?

I mean, there's like, everybody's looking for, at that point, once you start looking for this stuff, if you can find anything, especially on a show like Ellen's that has such cultural significance it's a story worth telling.

All right, David, you know, Ira Burkow's work from the New York Times and other places. He joined the press box and we got into everything from Red Smith to Isaiah Thomas, which means that we pretty much cover the waterfront. Here's Ira. Ira Burkow is a fabulous sports writer and columnist whose careers span 26 years

of the New York Times and many more beyond in his new book, how life imitates sports. You can read about such athletes as Muhammad Ali, LeBron James, Jackie Robinson, and O.J. Simpson. But Ira, another name caught my eye. You've got to be one of the only sports writers

whose book comes with a blur from novelist Saul Bellow, who said, I follow Ira Burko in the Times with unfailing interest. How did that come about? Well, you know, I'm Reggie from Chicago, and so is Bello. Well, actually born in Montreal, but he moved to Chicago, He was five, and he grew up in Chicago.

And Chicago was the basis for so much of his writing. And I was doing a book about a street in Chicago where I worked as a boy called Maxwell Street. And he was fond of this street. It was like an old world marketplace in Chicago. And I called him – I know that he had a – a picture was taken with Bellow on Maxwell Street. And so I contacted – and this is 1975, 76, and I contacted him for – what thoughts he had about the street. And so that evolved into a relationship, which we would trade letters. And I never, and then he wrote me, and I took that quote from a letter that he sent to me.

And he also said he loved my book, Maxwell Street. So I was delighted with that. And I had never met him. And we talked on the phone a few times and we exchanged correspondence. And then I decided I was going to Boston for something. And he was now living in Boston. He had been teaching at Boston University. So I called his home working with him, said that he is near death and can't talk. And that was the closest I got to meeting him. But we actually had a warm relationship, and I was, and I was delighted to learn that, that he read my stuff. Absolutely. I like to ask this, you start in sports writing with the Minneapolis Tribune in 1965. At that point, what did you want to be when you grew up? So, growing up in Chicago, and, well, first, I was a baseball and basketball player in high school.

I was captain of my high school basketball team in Chicago Public League, Sullivan High School. But I soon realized that I wasn't going to have a future in sports and playing anyway. And then I wanted – I had no direction. I wanted to be a – I thought I'd be a lawyer. I read about Clarence Darrow, who was also Chicago. And it seemed intriguing and dramatic, really, to be a lawyer and the kind of lawyer of the Clarence there it was. So I went to, but then I eventually went to college at Miami of Ohio, and by a quirk of circumstances, I got on the school paper as a junior, and I started writing,

and then I was given a column, oh, my God, this is terrific, this is fun. And so I started writing, and then I decided to write, I read Red Smith in the Chicago sometimes. First, I read him because I thought he was a Chicago writer at first. I didn't realize he. who syndicated. And I just started reading him in the sports pages. And, oh, my God, he was fabulous. Then I realized that he was a syndicated writer out of New York. And so I, two of my columns, I pasted, I put it in an envelope, New York Herald Tribune, which is to critique my stuff. I mean, out of the blue, you know, I mean, who am I, you know? I mean, but anyway, I did it. And, And I waited easily a month, month and a half, and then I got a response.

And it was there I was there I was walking and writing a lead, the managing editor would, or the city editor would come by and look over my shoulder. If you liked what he saw, he'd not to walk away. And if you didn't, he'd say, try again. My advice to you is try again. That's good. And it's honest. And it was honest, but it was sweet.

And then he made, he said, there are a couple things that I would pinpoint. He said, but keep doing it your way. And God bless Red Smith. Oh, he did say, I was going to write in marginal criticisms, but they would not have made you happy. And so, am I depressed at the great Red Smith, didn't like my stuff? or was I excited that he took the time, you know, to respond to me? So I decided that the latter. And so I got both of my, those columns that I sent him, I paces them up on paper,

fold them into an envelope. And with a note, dear Mr. Smith, please make me unhappy. And we developed a correspondence and a friendship. And we saw each other on occasion. But it was still distant. I mean, he was still, you know, but he was a mentor to me. And, oh, about nine months. And he was getting sick.

And they were asking me to substitute for him sometimes, which was incredible. And so I did. And then I'm writing a column. It was January 15, 1982. I'm home writing a column. And the sports editor called and said, Ira, we've got some bad news that Red died. And we'd like you to. right at. And so this was like two or three o'clock in the afternoon.

No pressure. Yeah, no, no, you know, and the deadline, 630. And maybe, maybe it's maybe a little earlier, maybe even one o'clock. I don't remember because I said, well, I mean, I've saved stuff in Red Smith correspondence with me. And they said, no, we want you to come in the office and sending in opinions about him and he said, I want you to come in the office. So I jumped in a cab and I came to the office. And I just started writing. And then I wrote, it was kind of a long piece.

And I also, gracious to college students, and he wrote to one of them from a letter that he written to me, and without mentioning my name. And then the next morning, early, to see how they ran my, and so I went to the, opened it up and page inside. I went there and there was nothing there. I said, my God, what they do?

And then I, one page of the New York Times, January 60, 1962, below the fold was my obituary on Red Smith and it ran inside. Wow. Wow. Yeah, yeah. You got the Times in 81 and the Times looks at sports differently than other newspapers. I think it's fair to say. How would you describe the role of the sports?

within the New York Times? Well, at the time, one of the reasons they said they hired me and hired Red Smith earlier was I thought it was dull, livened things up. And I was one of those. And so I give you an example. And it was 90, we can check on this, 92, I think, when Reggie Jackson was left to be a free agent from the Yankees. And then he was signed by the Los Angeles or the California Angels. Back to New York, Reggie.

And Reggie's having not a good season so far. It was early in the season, maybe April, May. And he comes up to bat, and he hits his at Yankee Stadium. He hits his first home run. And as he starts around the basis, a chant starts in left field, in right field, where he hit the ball. And it went all around the park, and Steinbrenner is standing right outside of his office facing the field. and he's there. And the chant was Steinbrenner sucks. Steinbrenner sucks. Okay. And it went all around and it was

chilling. And so I changed to the crowd was chanting a pejorative. So demure. But, you know, I think, I think now, I think now they would have run Steinbrenner sucks because just was it two weeks ago or so when this Congressman Yoho confronted Ocasio Alexandria

the congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez and she said he called me a fucking that was in the New York Times or changing to some degree a year ago in a subhead

and then in the story lying and they used the word liar That's right so it has loosened up a little bit Do you find when you're writing for the times that players read the paper or are they reading the post in the Daily News? I was friendly with Dave Raghetti, a pitcher for the Yankees. And I got to be friendly with them because when the Yankees sent them down to the minor leagues, I went down to do a story on them in the minor leagues. And if you do something with somebody when they're in the minor leagues, somehow really was like you're in the foxhole in the army.

And so you're sort of friends. You have a connection for life. anyway, now he's back with the Yankees. And so I go over to him and he said, Ira, he said, if I tell you this, then the guys and the rest of the guys are going to read it and they're going to get pissed off. So I really can't tell you. And so I like that is to say nothing. So I looked at him and he said, you know, these guys don't read the New York Times. I'll tell you. But the thing is that they well, if you said something negative in some way, maybe, or maybe in positive, but mostly negative,

somehow, even if they don't read the paper, they learn about it. They find out about it. Right. It gets quoted somewhere or something. Yeah, I mean, friends of theirs will tell them, oh, God, did you see what that blank, blank Burko wrote about you today? You know, but Steinbrer, Steinbrer was great because, I mean,

he was such easy pickings for a columnist. you know, to knock. And one day, one day there's some event, indoor event, some gala or something. And am I talking to you or am I not talking to you? I said, George, I can't believe it. Don't you remember you're talking to me.

He said, oh, okay, okay. That is great. You get to the Times. A few months later, you start writing the Sports of the Times column. What did you want to do differently with your column that others maybe weren't doing or hadn't done before? Nothing. I wanted to just write to the best of my ability to write on the level, not aping, but on the level of Red Smith, I mean, to that kind of write well, just to write well, and to capture the moments, the moods, and also then also to be honest and to be forthright. and I think that we

you and I actually had something that I had done with Tanya Harding and I think this is an example of trying to be forthright and you remember when Tanya Harding was there was a question about whether she should go to the Olympics or not

and because she was she involved with the kneeing of her number one opponent Nancy Kerrigan. And the whole country knew, in quotes, that Tanya Harding was involved. And I had some experience being in Chicago and in headlines in the Chicago papers that this guy did the murder, and the sheriff got him, and there was a whole thing. And they were going to, you know, it turned out that he didn't do it at all. There was a lot of evidence that seemed like he did to it, including a confession, but he didn't do it. And I was 17 years old reading this story.

And Tanya Harding now was saying that she had no involvement with this hitting of her opponent. It was an influence on me. And I was one of the few sportswriters in the country that said there's not enough evidence to prove that she knew beforehand or that she was involved in this. And it turns out that she did go to the Olympics. And it turned out that that she was convicted eventually of knowing afterward that she never had prior knowledge of the incident of her. And that was one example of trying to be forthright. Another example that you can't take what everybody is saying at one point. And when Michael Jordan's father was murdered, he pulled off the side of the man.

Apparently, two guys came and murdered him. But at the point, we didn't know what had happened. And Jordan had been involved in some gambling incidents at that time. And so I was writing a column that day, and the deputy sports editor actually said, you got to write that Jordan's and the gambling were connected in some way. Well, we didn't know this. We didn't know this at all. And I wrote that the only thing we do know, because at this point,

all we know is that the father was murdered in his car. Okay. And so I said, the only thing that we do know is that Michael Jordan and his father had a very deep affection for each other and that, and what, and what this means to Michael. And so, and so I wrote that rather than writing, you know, there has to be a connection to gambling. Well, so you asked me a very good question earlier on. And the thing is, you know, to write, to write honestly and to not take leaps if you, unless you're certain about what you're writing about. Here's another one that really that I remembered and went back and looked up before we talked. 1987, The Lakers are about to play the Celtics in the finals. And Isaiah Thomas, Piston Star,

another fellow Chicagoan, made a comment, had made a comment about Larry Bird. And Isaiah said, I think Larry's a very, very good basketball player, an exceptional talent, but I'd have to agree with Dennis Robben.

If Byrd was black, he'd be just another good guy. Of course, Isaiah, went in for a lot of criticism, you call him up for a Sports of the Times column. Can you tell us what you were thinking with that? Yeah, I called them, you know, I mean, people were knocking Isaiah, and I had, I had a relationship with Isaiah early on, because I interviewed him when he was in college, and I called him, and he said to me, he said, Ira, he said, I, I misspoke in a way,

that you know we lost the game and we lost it in the last second and Isaiah had thrown a bad pass it was intercepted by By By Byrd

and he threw to to one of his who was it Dennis the other guy Johnson Johnson and made the basket that won the game

for the Celtics and so Isaiah was sort of down in the locker room when that happened and Dennis Rod who I think was a rookie at the time, but just mouthed off. And Isaiah said that, that, you know, people think of black athletes

dribbling out of their mother's womb, you know, that they have no intelligence, really. They just have great physical talent. And he said, I guess all of that came to afford in my head. And I just, I said that. And, look, Larry Bird's a great player. And, you know, and so I. And I wrote that column and nominated for Pulitzer Prize. And I got finalists for the commentary.

And that column was the lead column for the 10 that the time submitted. But so now the Celtics are in the playoffs instead of the Pistons. And I'm in Los Angeles. And I'm going to get the – and in the corridor – he said – Brent Musburger's interview me. half time of his playoff and he said he went back in our room and I

and the essence of the I said Isaiah tell that people are going to believe and so he went on and and I'm not I didn't hear it so I'm not sure what he said but the entire truth but I also remember one other things that was crossed

my leg and he said you're wearing socks I said you pulled up his pants and for cool guys not to wear socks And so before leaving, you said, why are you wearing socks? I'm a sports writer. I'm not fashionable. Why are you wearing socks?

That's great. That is great. 1985, Ira, Las Vegas. You were there for the Marvin Hagler Thomas Hearns boxing match. It was a huge fight at the time. You also wound up covering the sixth wedding of Jake Lamata, a column that is collected here. Jake Lamont, of course, of the guy Robert. narrow played in Raging Bull. How did you wind up there? And I've always wondered when you were when

you were at this wedding, are you thinking, oh my God, this is going to be an incredible column? Yeah, no. What happened was I was there for the fight and I had known not a lot, not great, but known enough. And so I knew I was a reporter. And I said, so what's up? Jake, when I saw me. So I'm getting married this evening. I said, you're getting no kidding. You've been married a few times. He says, yeah, I think I was a six or seventh wedding. And so he's come on up. So he told me where the hotel was nearby. And

he was at a nearby hotel. So I thought, what the hell? You know, started in the news favorite business, be there. Because you never know what's going to happen. You know, be there. A ball game. Go to the, you know, that. I just dropped in. I was just looking. And turned out that all these old

fighters were there. I mean, Joey Maxim and Tony Zale and and, oh, God. Billy Khan was there. Billy Conn. Oh, and Karma Basilio. Karma Basilio.

And so all of them were there. And it was, and I didn't have a notebook because I was just going to go, so drop in, have dinner. And then I walked around, and it was the funniest, funniest thing. They were just great. But just before the vows, Jake was with his wife. And the preacher was there. And the phone rang.

somewhere in this room, the phone rang. And Jake steps forward and says, what round is it? That's just amazing. Yeah, it was, it was amazing. And I said to Jake, I said, I said, Jake, your wife is better looking than you are. And he said, she better be. And Carmen Basilio, who was the middleweight champion, he lived in Conasoga, in New York. If he ever went to college, he went to school of H.N.

Anyway, it went on and on from there. And so I wrote, I ran, so what happened was this was such good stuff. I ran back to the hotel and I just started writing the story, you know, writing in notes and then and then it wrote my story. And it was made front page of the sports section, of course. And it said, and the title was the Lamata nuptials. I don't mind my saying so that when David Albersdam put together Best American Sports Writing of the Century, he included that column. We had Diane K. Shaw on the podcast last week, Ira,

and she told us that even decades after she stopped writing a newspaper sports column there, or morning she wakes up and wishes she had one, because she's got a column in her head. You ever feel that way? You know, on occasion, and just recently, within the, let's see, And April, and last, remember I did a column on 1969 on K-Line in his 17th season in the major leagues. He played for league over 20. And he said, you know, I'm sitting in the dugout with him. He said, I just wonder sometimes if I've wasted my time, if I shouldn't have been a doctor,

or helping people in some way other than being a ball player. And I recall that. And I called the sports editor. I said, you know, I have an insight. And he said, you know, okay, good, write it. And so I wrote and they ran it. They didn't run it as a sports at Times column. They ran it on baseball column, a slug on baseball.

And then there was the uprising, of course, as you know, in Minneapolis and the murder of that. And I remembered, I did a book with Ross when he was with the Minnesota Twins. And so, again, he was living in a, and he was living. And he would sometimes jogged through the streets, but it was a mostly white suburb. And he would regularly get stopped by cops thinking that a black man is running and probably running away having stolen something. And so he stopped running through the streets. He would also be stopped by cops driving first in New York Times. And they ran, it was, they ran just essentially the entire page with pictures.

I remember. And the reason is that, I guess one of the reasons is, I'm the sports that are like the story. but there was nothing else going on in sports. Right. There you go. I mean, if there was a baseball and basketball season going on, it would have been relegated to page nine of the sports section. Our Burkow's new book is How Life Imitates Sports.

A sports writer recounts relives and reckons with 50 years on the sports beat. It's got a ton of amazing stories. And then Ira's updated notes on several of them. Ira, thanks so much for doing this. Okay, Brian. Thanks for thinking of me. I appreciate it. All right, it's time for David Schuemaker guesses, the strained pun headline.

Yay. Thursday's headline about Matthew McConaughey writing his memoirs was all right, all right, all right. I thought you were making me guess the title of the book, which, I mean, I got the answer right. That is not, in fact, the title of the book. It was not. It was much more boring than that. What was it, green lights? Yeah, green lights, which is a nice name, but not exactly one that makes you think of Matthew McConaughey.

That's a perfect celebrity memorandum. memoir title, Green Lights. Because it's just kind of vaguely inspirational. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. All right.

is, I mean, who's not going to buy that? Come on. Or Morial over the Athletic noted to me that that pun was actually used in a tweet by the athletic when Matthew McConaughey did a chat for them. So I just, congrats to everyone who has used that exquisite pun. Today's headline, David, is from cash and legal. It's from Reuters, kind of a surprising source.

The story is about a. nightclub in western France. A 19-year-old student goes there last month. There's a lot of dancing at the nightclub, and you can probably guess what happens next. 72 cases of COVID-19 are traced back to the student and his friends. The Wire Service reports. The key word here is disco. Disco.

You're going to want to start there. What was the Reuters strained pun headline? God, I was all ready for dirty dancing. Uh, disco. Would not have been bad. Disco, uh, flying, uh, dis, I don't, it's not disco. Not disco inferno. No.

Dang, I don't know. You're going to have to give me another hint. I thought I was on a roll. This is, this would be the name of a band. A band, uh, believe, turned band. Oh, oh, Panic at the disco? Oh, so keep going there. Oh, oh, uh, uh, uh, um,

Pandemic at the disco. Pandemic at the disco. That's great. Mr. Shoemaker. Well done. Fantastic stuff. He is David Shoemaker. I'm Brian Curtis.

Research by Chris Almeida, production magic by Erica Servantes. We're back Thursday with listener mail. Send that in now. I want to say a quick farewell, David, while we're here for Jim Cunningham. First producer of this podcast. He's now moving on to the Cousin Sal expanded universe.

Mm-hmm. We're going to miss Jim Cunningham. here at the ringer, aren't we? He produces both of my podcasts, and yes, or it has produced, I guess, but I'm going to miss him terribly. I don't even know what to say. I totally, I forgot that this is going to be tacked on the end of the show, and I'm sort of kind of, I caught my breath.

Jim, you know, for all of you who've been listening, Jim is the reason why there's that bar-style piano music, lounge piano music at the beginning of the show. He was the sole reason there were ever like super cuts making fun of us at the end of those early episodes. Not everything's bad about Jim leaving. Let me tell you. No, I'm just kidding. And he's an irrepressible light in both of our lives. I think I can say that with great irony.

Totally. He, um, I just, he's incredibly supportive guy behind the scenes when we started this out. And I just sucked and, and probably still do suck. But, uh, Jim was incredible. nice, incredibly supportive. And the other thing, when you mentioned those supercuts, which were absolutely hilarious, my family loved in particular,

despite them being filled with swear words, is that Jim is a great producer, and he's also just a great creative force in and of himself. As anyone who has seen the Top Gun show, he's a part of in L.A. knows. So him going over to Cousin Sal and, you know, having part of his life to be like funny,

creative on the air, on the stage, Jim, to me, that's awesome. And that that's what I'm looking forward to seeing as much as anything, as letting him also just have that opportunity because he's great. And he is hilarious. All right. Enough sentiment, David. We're back Thursday with more lukewarm takes about the media. See you then, my man. See you, Brian. And bye, bye, Jim.