The Press Box - Burying the Hatchet Job | The Press Box

Episode Date: July 16, 2019

Donald Trump’s tweet to a cohort of Democratic representatives (03:00), the Overworked Twitter Joke of the Week (17:45), Dale Peck’s piece on Pete Buttigieg in The New Republic (21:30), 'The Breakfast Club' becoming the new 'View' (28:15), and more. Hosts: Bryan Curtis and David Shoemaker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to The Ringer Podcast Network. After you finish the episode, make sure to check out a brand new episode of our live music series on YouTube called The Ringer Room. Each month, we feature a new up-and-coming musical artist to play a live set in The Ringer. So far, we've featured artists like Cautious Clay, Mount Joy, and Earth Gang, and we just posted our episode for July showcasing Charlie Bliss. You can check out those videos at YouTube.com slash The Ringer. David, on Sunday morning, President Donald Trump tweeted some really racist stuff about members of Congress. According to Media Matters, he apparently got the idea from a Fox and Friends segment. What I want to know is what other Sunday morning show in a just non-racist world should Trump take his editorial cues from.

Wow. Wait, but it's on TV. I don't even know what's on TV on Sunday mornings. It's like golf and the Sunday morning talk shows, you know, the face the nation and meet the press, all that stuff. I mean, it would be really sort of amazing if he was just like, like quote tweeting Joel Osteen on Sunday mornings. Just like I have, positive message. I have some thoughts on the prosperity gospel and why I think it applies to every American. I just remember when we were kids. Weren't those Davy and Goliath cartoons on Sunday morning? Were those claymation?

Yeah, those were definitely claymation. I'm pretty sure they were on on Sundays. I'm not 100% on that. Oh my gosh. That's a great grab, though. We are the Bassmasters of Media Podcast. This is the Press Box. Part of the Ringer Podcast Network.

Hello, media consumers. Brian Curtis and David Shoemaker here. A bunch of great stuff to get to today. we're going to talk about the New Republic versus Mayor Pete how in the 2020 election the radio show The Breakfast Club has become the new view

farewell to Major League Baseball pitcher slash memoirist Jim Bouton farewell to Starbucks selling print newspapers plus the overworked Twitter joke of the week. But back to what Donald Trump tweeted on Sunday morning, David.

And I quote, so interesting to see progressive Democratic Congresswomen who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world, if they even have a functioning government at all, now loudly and viciously telling the people of the United States the greatest and most powerful nation on earth how our government is to be run. And here's the important part. Why don't they go back and

help fix the totally broken and crime-infested places from which they came, then come back and show us how it's done? Trump there is referring apparently to the Quartet of Congress members known as the squad of those Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, Ianna Presley, and Rashida Taleb were all born in the U.S. Elon Omar from Minnesota immigrated from

Somalia when she was 10, but even then, who cares? I think David, the way to go here is to talk about how this played in the press relying heavily on Brian Stelter, who collected the responses. Let's first start by listening to Sunday night's NBC

Nightly News, which was hosted by Kate Snow. To Washington now, and what's become a familiar pattern, the president puts out an inflammatory tweet that offends Democrats, but this one is striking a deeper chord, with many decrying it as racist. Hans Nichols has more from the White House. President Trump today trying to stoke conflict between House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and four minority liberal Congresswoman, tweeting, go back and help fix the totally broken and crime-infested places from which they came. Mr. Trump added, So interesting to see progressive Democrat congresswomen who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe. The president has singled out one of the women, Miss Omar, before.

She's from Somalia, the only one of the four congresswoman born outside the United States. I'm looking at this Omar from Minnesota. She shouldn't even be in office. Speaker Pelosi today denounced Mr. Trump's tweets as xenophobic comments meant to divide our nation. while Omar accused the president of stoking white nationalism because you are angry that people like us are serving in Congress. Other House Democrats, including the assistant House Speaker, rallying to their colleagues' defense. That's a racist tweet. And the field of 2020 Democratic hopefuls piled on. What he's trying to do is make America hate again.

He's really doing something that is so anti-American. This country is facing another bigot who is trying to divide us again. While Trump may have united Democrats today, Clear division still exists between Pelosi and the progressives in her caucus. That's a pretty good example without picking on NBC too much of how the mainstream media covered the story, which is to have people saying that those tweets are racist, but not actually saying themselves the tweets are racist. And by doing that in run, sort of making the whole thing seem like a political

dispute rather than a crisis of the President of the United States tweeting racist things. Do you agree? I mean, I agree that seems to be what happened. I mean, I think anybody watching that segment who's not paying a ton of attention comes away with, first of all, that terrible Bill de Blasio tagline, make America hate again. And then, but beyond that. The sort of this idea that Trump and the Democrats are somehow at loggerheads over something he tweeted. Rather than the fact that this is outrageous and this particular phrase go back to fill in the blank has this long, crazy, ugly resonance in American life.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I actually, this is, this resonates with me in a kind of unfortunately particular way because I just this. weekend was with a extended family member who made some unfortunate racially charged comments that he thought was really funny. And it occurred to me, it occurred to me that we as a culture are sort of ill-equipped to deal with the president. I mean, this has been said a million times in a million different ways, but we're ill-equipped to deal with someone of the president's position and stature making these sort of comments because it was, it was really clear to me in the moment this

weekend that the best possible reaction to such things was to say, fuck off, right? But it's not the, you know, that, that be, even if that's the most appropriate thing to say, it's not, that's an impossible thing for the New York Times to say. And even if they did, would President Trump be listening? And then, even, and then, or to just leave the room. I mean, make your, but that's obviously not an option either, right? I mean, there's nothing you can really do. All of that is to say, yes, we are ill-equipped to deal with this. And, and, and conveying it the way that, that, that it's been conveyed, you're right. I mean, makes it look like there's some sort of element of disagreement. I mean, even the New York Times,

which has covered this, I think, really effectively, their first piece, you know, said Trump tells Congresswoman, Congresswoman to, quote, go back to the, end quote, to the countries they came from. The quotation marks have to do a lot of heavy lifting there, but it does editorialize at least a little bit, or at least, you know, make some sort of point. And then later, rejecting criticism, Trump accuses Pelosi of a very racist statement. And on and on and on. Again, that seems a little bit, that seems to issue what's really, you know, at play. Now, I will say that they did have a Charles Blow column is that the first thing that comes up under top stories that says Trump's tweets prove that he is a raging racist. And that just is the byline on Google or whatever is just the New York Times.

So I guess that although that's an element of confusion thrown in that does that does have some teeth. But it's an op-ed, you know. And so again, it's relying on other people to make that case. I mean, there's not a question here anymore, right? As if there ever was. And frankly, and frankly, I even think, and listen, I don't think anything that Ocasio-Cortez said was wrong in her tweet, but I think just trying to explain it is almost diminishes it, you know, to try to like say that he's doing this because he's worried about it because he's scared of us or because he doesn't like us. No, the appropriate answer is fuck off.

Yeah, I think, I think explaining it or. or saying what Trump fears or something like that to me does actually diminishes the the vileness of it a lot because I don't I don't really know that it even even merits an explanation in that kind of way I think I had a couple of reactions when I saw this I often find myself when we have these disputes not usually about race but about Trump is lying or something like that with the New York Times I often side with the feckless journalists because oftentimes it's the times uncovering something that Trump did

and then everybody on Twitter says why can't you call it a lie? Why can't you say that Trump is lying when in fact what they've done is just going out of their way to demonstrate that by uncovering some kind of fact. But in this case this was a public tweet and really your only job here is context. And to me the context

that I wanted right away or in the kind of news analysis piece is, you know, there was a little bit, and I think Peter Baker wrote the analysis piece on this in the Times that you're referring to, is, you know, hit Trump's history of racist comments. But I think the other thing is just that the history of that kind of comment itself and where that comes from. And who are the kind of people that say those things and have said that particular thing throughout. history. That's kind of what I want. Because otherwise, it just seems like you're tiptoeing around it. And, you know, in quoting, it's really weird to just, I think what makes people freak out when this happens. And I think I'm probably one of them is when you have to go to a Democrat to say that he said something racist. Because we're in this, we're in this moment where almost all the Democratic candidates are happy to say that. but nobody on the Republican side wants to say it.

No. So when you say, when you quote a Democrat saying that, you're almost making it into a political dispute, which is exactly what Trump wants. Yeah. He wants this to be Republicans versus Democrats. Yep. I say stuff and they're against me. And then you're almost playing his game when you do that.

Yeah. I mean, the first reports that I read and forgive me, I don't know where it was, but went back and trace some of the previous offensive, you know, racist things that the president said in, you know, in his birth or days in the first campaign and since then, and, and actually recorded some, I mean, instances along the way where Republicans objected to it and said that the comments were inappropriate and, you know, whatever. But in some way, I think that that, I mean, not in some way. I think that very, very straightforwardly diminishes the reluctance that Republicans have had the entire time with speaking out against this stuff. Yes, you're like,

two months from now, you'll be able to look back and find two quotes of Republicans who said that these were inappropriate comments. That doesn't mean that. that they rose up to riot against the racism of it, you know, and to take their president to task in an election cycle. But yeah, I mean, I think that it's, I mean, it's just, this is the easiest thing to come out against in the world. This would be like, this would, I mean, like, to say go back to the countries you're from is,

I am not overstating this. It is literally like wearing a white hood out onto the, White House lawn and then retroactively being like making some excuse as to why like, oh, I just, it was a pillow case. I thought it was a joke. You know, I mean, it's not, there is no question what was meant here. And if there, and listen, if you think there was a question, if you want to make that case, then you are making the case that your president is disqualifyingly stupid.

Like, he should not be eligible for the presidency because he is dumber than a piece of carpet. you know what I think kind of breaks reporters minds when they run into something like that is the fact that Trump made a factual mistake in this. So we said that at the top of the segment here, three out of the four Congress members he's talking about we're actually born in the United States. Reporters have this very pedantic way and this is often what makes them good reporters of trying to discern truth from lies. and so often when Trump throws out something incredibly incendiary like this, he has mistakes in it because he has mistakes in everything, including like the invitation to the Red Sox to come visit the White House. But reporters, I think, fixate on the mistake as if it would be ever be appropriate to tell anyone go back to where they came from. As if that would ever, ever, ever, ever, ever be appropriate.

But it's like, well, you know, three out of four of these people, you know, actually are from the United States. So it's like Trump is somehow guilty. But I often find I think that actually, when we're talking about diminishing the power of his comments, I think that sort of gets in the way for reporters sometimes. It's a, it's a strange thing. Here are the nutgrass from the New York Times news story. Wrapped inside that insult, which was widely established as a racist trope, widely established as a racist trope, was a factually inaccurate. claim, which I just covered, even though Mr. Trump has repeatedly

refused to back down from stoking racial divisions, his willingness to deploy a lowest rung slur one commonly and crudely used to single out the perceived foreignness of non-white, non-Christian people was largely regarded as beyond the pale. That's not that bad,

but still, widely established as a racist trope. Stoking racial divisions largely regarded as beyond the pale. You know, you see the watering down that happens, even with something that, as you say, is just so starkly and inarguably horrible. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's interesting that the op-ed, I mean, obviously it's a different thing, but the opinion pages were allowed to just openly call them a racist.

I'm sort of interested. I mean, I know this risks going off an attention. that will diminish this, you know, situation as anything else well. But I'm sort of interested in like the copy desk and the, you know, the institutional decision making about how there's, the word is used. I know it was, I know we've been through this before, especially, you know, in the previous election cycle. But, um, this seems like if there were ever there were a time to use the word racist in a headline, I feel like we're there. It would seem so. And again, I don't know that that's the, I mean, to me, and I think a lot of

the times all the criticism winds up focusing on the New York Times because they're so good and they're sort of the, you know, paper of record. But this is something, and read Stelter's media newsletter for more, but this is something that is across all the, all media almost. And if you, and if you watch the evening news, it's much, much, as we just heard, it's much more elliptical than that. Yeah, I will, I just, I just tripped backwards over an AP story. That is, I'm reading on the New York Times website that's headline is Trump digs. Trump digs in amid censure of racist tweets about lawmakers. So credit to the AP.

Yeah, there you go. The speaking of feckless here is the reaction over at the weekend edition of Fox and Friends. Mr. Trump's tweets. So it was how it is done. These places need your help badly. You can't leave fast enough. I'm sure that Nancy Pelosi would be very happy to quickly work out free travel arrangements, this tweet that you're just seeing now

is clearly going to get, I think, a lot of discussion. Someone's feeling very comedic today. It's a big laugh. I would just like to stipulate that although we do occasionally have people who work on this show laughing in the background, none of those laughs were by the employees of the ringer.

Yeah. That was, by the way, was there anything sadder than a weekend Fox and Friends? I was going to say, I wanted to make a comment about the dude on the left and the way that he started. I'm eyeing the camera really uncomfortably when the woman in the middle started trying to explain what was right about what Trump tweeted. But I didn't want to learn either of their names because the weekend Fox and Friends hosts are about as disposable as gum.

But yeah, if you do watch the clip on Twitter or wherever else, just watch the faces there. She's like, she makes the case that, you know, whatever. Border security is what has always made this country great. I don't even, I mean, clearly not what Trump was talking about. but the guy next to her is just like, oh, crap, we're about to get in it right here. I'm so glad you said that because this morning when I was putting together that clip, I was like, should I learn these people's names? I'm like, nah, I just don't care.

No. I just don't care who these people are at all. All right, David, it's time for the overworked Twitter joke of the week where we celebrate a gag that was so obvious that all of media, Twitter made it at exactly the same time. Please send your submissions to at the press box pod where they will be gratefully received. before we get started, Ryan Hand sends this in. An overworked Twitter joke that I love. Sports writers announcing the birth of a child with quote breaking free agent insert name has just signed a lifetime contract, no trade clause.

David, that is kind of the combination of childbirth and NBA insiderdom all coming into one. And thank you for not doing that after the recent birth of your own child. a marathon Wimbledon final, David, on Sunday night, which our pal Chris Almeida knows all about. It was an overworked Twitter joke to write lunch and quite possibly dinner at Wimbledon and also the Boston, New York Yankee game they played the other week would be in the sixth inning right now.

Thanks to Daryl Dawson for both of those. The baseball game was also very long in case you did not see that. Some bad reviews have started to trickle in for the rebooted Lion King movie. Oh, yes. A.A. Dowd over at the A.V. Club writes that John Favreau's movie labors under the bizarre misconception that anyone needed a photorealistic take on the Shakespearean struggle between talking, singing lions.

So I thought that was really nice. Referencing one of the beloved songs from the original movie, it was an overworked Twitter joke to write, Be Prepared for a crushing disappointment. Thanks to Sam Wilson, who warns us to be prepared for a bunch of be prepared puns. We'll be looking for those. Sam. And finally, in other Disney blockbuster news, this tweet made the rounds last week. The fundamentalist group, 1 million moms, objects to Toy Story 4 for showing a child with two moms.

Okay. So just so we're clear, one million moms is upset about a child and toy star with two moms. It was some great stuff came out of that. Quote, why this child is 99,99,998 moms short. can you name all the moms so I can add one million people to my in real life block list? And finally, they only gave the kid two moms because it would have been too expensive to animate one million moms. Thanks to David Mulhern for that. If you clown one million moms for being mathematically challenged, congrats.

You made the overworked Twitter joke of the week. All right, David, before we move on, let's take a quick break. Today's episode is brought to you by Luminary, a new podcast subscription service with some of the best content. around. I'm excited about Luminary because it's the only place you can listen to the newest show on the ringer network, Breakstuff, the story of Woodstock 1999. This is definitely a podcast you can't miss. Breakstuff, the story of Woodstock 99 involves a music festival that took place in upstate New York that became a social experiment. There were riots, looting, numerous assaults, and it was set to a soundtrack of some of the era's most aggressive rock bands. Incredibly, it was the third iteration of

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Luminary.com slash press box. Cancel any time. Terms apply. All right, David, on to the notebook dump. And it's time to set our days since the last New Republic's scandal calendar back to zero. Because on Friday, the venerable Lefty magazine published an article by notorious hatchet man, Dale Peck, whose book was literally called Hatchet Jobs, titled My Mayor Pete Problem. and the Pete's, which refers to Pete Buttigieg as Mary Pete throughout, a term meant by Peck to be, quote, the gay equivalent of Uncle Tom, in quote. Also questions that legitimacy of Buttigieg's marriage, his ability to govern, et cetera, et cetera.

We may get to a few clips of this if I am willing to read them out loud, but what did you make of the story in the New Republic? Wow, tossing it right to me, huh? Yeah, it's all you, buddy. it was sort of halting. Is that an appropriate word to use here? Sure. It was not what I expected to see. I mean, I don't want to jump too far ahead in this story.

But Chris Lehman, who's the editor of the new public, who I vaguely knew many, many years ago, said that this piece was meant largely a satire and knowing the sort of Dale Peck backstory as I do, and as you do, I know well, it was sort of hard to read it without some sort of ironic detachment, right? Or at least hoping that that was the point.

Right. Hoping it was written with ironic detachment rather than this was actually how somebody seriously felt about Pete Buttigieg. Yeah. But I think if you know, I think that even without the intention, there's the element of like understanding the author

to enough to know that like there is implicit irony in his style and in his existence. You know, I mean, you know, there's the, the, to publish Dale Peck in the New Republic is a wink towards a, a bygone era of, uh, ostentatious, um, deliberately showy criticism, right? I mean, deliberately, deliberately reductive, but, you know, and destructive criticism. But the, that said, you know, it's not, it's got to, it has to be seen as an editorial failure to because to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to establish that more clearly up top, up front, because the vast majority of the readership that's going to come to this is not going to be one with, you know, it's not going to be one with, you know, it's not going to be one with, it's not going to be one with, it's not going to be one with the intimate knowledge of Dale Peck's literary history. Right. And I think you also would have to establish that it works as satire. And it doesn't, yeah. Yeah. It doesn't to me. As you point out, Lehman said it was called it satire,

Wynne McCormick, who was the editor-in-chief of the New Republic, was one of the ones who apologized for it, apologized to Buttigieg, and pulled the piece down, removed it from the site. Should we explain it for a little bit for those who were those youngs who were not around in the early odds who Dale Peck is? He is a novelist and literary critic who gained fame in a very different New Republic, the early odds, Barty Perrots, Leon Weasleteer, New Republic for being America's most vicious book critic. He called Rick Moody the worst writer of his generation. Paul Terry McMillan's How Stella Got Her Groove Back, a panting, gasping, protracted death rattle.

Two valid point of view. him. Stanley Crouch, whose book he also Pan once hit Dale Peck in a Manhattan restaurant. You can go back and read an old profile in the New York Times magazine by James Atlas for more. But let me read you one sentence. This is a little bit long, but it goes to the Peck style. Peck is talking about modernist literature.

The modernist tradition, he writes, began with the diarrheaic flow of words that is Ulysses, continued on through the incomprehensible ramblings of late Faulkner, and the sterile inventions of Nabokov, Nabokov, and then burst into full foul life in the ridiculous dithering of Barth and Hawks and Gaddis and the reductive cardboard constructions of Bartholme and the word-by-word wasting of a talent

as formidable as penchons, and finally broke apart like a cracked sidewalk beneath the weight of the stupid, just plain stupid tomes of Delillo. So count the great novelists that he sprays with machine gunfire in that sentence. starting with James Joyce and eventually working to

Delillo. Yeah. He got famous Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. I mean, he got famous for the hat for the over-the-top

hatchet job. It's funny because reading about, I mean, reading his takes on the sort of literary establishment or the canon, there are certainly elements or degrees to which I agree

with a lot of what he says. And I think most of what he took, most of what he took fire for in his hands. heyday. I mean, most of these came in the, most of these, those quotes came within reviews of other books that were current releases, right? And a lot of what he took fire for was the kind of absent, the utter absence of like the expected decency or the, you know, of cordiality that comes in like the book review community, which is not to, to water down the, the depths to which

he was unnecessarily acerbic or just outright incorrect and cruel at times. But, you know, I think that there were some smart ideas buried in there. I just, I think, but I think the entire thing is just sort of like literary performance art, uh, you know, didn't have legs.

And obviously that's sort of the, the way those things go. Yeah, it is interesting to go back and read some of those sentences in the light of the Buttigieg thing. The, uh, peck got so big in this period that at the 2002 national book awards,

Steve Martin, who was reading off the nominees, said if anyone applauds before everyone, applause before everyone has been announced they will be reviewed by Dale Peck. So Dale Peck was sort of like a one-liner at that point in history, which is kind of amazing. And kind of amazing that he's back. One of the fallouts from this was the New Republic. The League of Conservation Voters and Gizmodo had all been names on a September Democratic

candidate's forum about climate change. The League of Conservation voters pulled out and then the New Republic pulled out. So I guess it's all up to Gizmoto now to to, uh, save the climate. Anyway, what a weird episode. Also, just because we're, you know, in this media sphere, it bears mentioned this conversation that Connor Friedersdorf and Nate Silver had on Twitter, where Freersdorf said, so long as a person from a historically marginalized group, but here is to progressive orthodoxy on every subject, most left-leaning institutions will treat them with respect. Should they stray from it, however, macroaggressions will ensue. The latest

example, and then the link to this piece, Nate Silver's, I think, correct response was, I don't know, I think that maybe the lesson is just that the New Republic has shitty editors. And they went back and forth for a bit. But that's the takeaway. There you go. In other electionish news, David, the next voice you're about to hear is from one of the leading power brokers in the Democratic primary. No, it's not Joy Behar. I refer, of course, to Charlemagne the God, one of the hosts of the radio show The Breakfast Club.

Here's Charlemagne on CNN last week, explaining why the Breakfast Club has already hosted one third of the Democratic candidates running for press. What is a difference on your show than other interviews you think? I think that they know that they can come to us and be a little bit more loose. But I actually think that they were coming to our show because they thought that they could just get over on the black and brown audience. Like they didn't think that, you know, we were as prepared as we as we are when they come to the show. So I think that they thought they could just come in there and just, you know, do their usual political rhetoric spiel, their scripted talking points,

and, you know, hey, on to the next thing. But I think that, I think the jig is up on that. I think they know they got to come and be prepared. The Breakfast Club started on Power 105.1 in New York and now beams to 90 markets and has a giant YouTube platform. Kamala Harris went on for the second time last week and did 45 freewheeling minutes, the kind of interview that any journal on the campaign trail would kill for. So the Breakfast Club, David, don't you think, has kind of displaced the view at least temporarily? and by the way, not a moment too soon.

Thank God, because I was just rooting for anything to displace the view as the and or Morning Joe is the place to go for politics in this country. What is, why do you think this has happened? I was kind of playing with this idea this morning as I was watching Harris's latest interview. Well, I think the format is, I mean, even if it's maybe less, you know, politically or politically overt as some other platforms. and I don't even know if that's a correct thing to say, but if one wants to just make assumptions about the content,

it's a lot more of a human and also unforgiving context, right? I mean, you have 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 45 minutes, and like you said, in the case of Kamala Harris' last appearance, and this is with people who have been honing this craft for a long time. You know, I mean, it's possible to, it's possible, as we saw, you know, as everyone took note during Trump's candidacy, it's possible to sort of run out the clock on every single, you know, significant question that is thrown your way, right? All you have to do is filibuster, even in a debate, even in a sit-down interview. All you have to do

is filibuster for long enough and the interviewer will move on. And it's a lot harder when you're trying to fill 30 minutes, you know, and when, uh, and when the people interviewing you can keep circling back around. Um, you know, and, and, and, you, and, and, you, and, and, and, And also, like I said, there's a, I mean, there is a real form to it. I mean, I, it's, it sounds sort of silly, but, you know, people that, that have been doing radio at the highest level for a long time. I mean, there's a sort of throwback quality to it, even though the, even though, you know, it's, there's a sheen of freshness on it. They're not, you know, they, they, they have a big YouTube following and everything else, but they're not, you know, in the, in the, in the, in the mode of adapting. for a modern world in the way that TV is. They're not trying to shorten things necessarily. They're not trying to make everything into a meme. This is like old school long form audio.

You know, this is what you and I do twice a week, except they're better at it. That's exactly right, especially that they're better at it than we are part. I think, though, to your point about it being old school, it also has a lot more in common with lefty Twitter than political TV does. Yeah, that's true. You know, if we look at people, there's a few kind of emissary figures on cable like Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow. But I think when lefty Twitter watches the election, they look at people like Chris Cuomo and Chris Matthews and like these people have nothing in common with me at all.

Whereas the breakfast club kind of sounds like Twitter in a way. And I mean that as a compliment. Charlemagne told Harris in this latest interview that people should chant lock him up about Trump at her. rallies. She just sort of smiled. He asked her, how can you win, how can you hope to win this election with, with Russian interference? The, um, what's funny watching her too is this was almost like I thought watching it. It was almost her best forum or her best medium because she's really good at, as we saw in the last debate, using a motion to make her points. She was also really smart in this interview about tying the immigrant experience that we're talking about now with the border. to the black experience in America through the theme of incarceration,

which I thought was really interesting. And she's much more just comfortable kind of talking about those kind of issues and ideas than she is at rolling out specific plans like Elizabeth Warren. And in fact, listen to Harris sub-tweet Warren

in this response to a question from one of the Breakfast Club hosts, DJ Envy. You know, with everybody on stage, it's almost like, you know, free minimum wage, free health care, free student loans Black people are going to get reparations. You know, it's like, you get a call, you get a call, you get a call.

It sounds good, but what's real and what's bullshit? Like, what as president can we really do? Right now it sounds good. You know, everybody wants to massage you. What can we really, really do? Lofty ideals, but can these things happen? They can't. When you become president, what can you really do?

Well, I'm going to tell you, that's why I'm not turning out plans like a factory because it is really important to me that any plan that I'm prepared to implement is actually doable. So you see the bullshit too, bull crap. Well, I just think that, okay. She goes on that then sort of Harris goes on

to center it in ideology. Oh, with these, you know, some of these people who are churning out plans like a factory are really just being ambitious, but my concern is how do we get there, et cetera, so anyway, I thought that was a really funny moment. Also, The Breakfast Club is just a lot funnier Here's a small clip they played on CNN of a few highlights from this year.

Have you ever smoked? I have. Okay. And I inhale. I did inhale. It was a long time ago. What about chick-fil-A? You like chick-fil-A?

I do not approve of their politics, but I kind of approve of their chicken. You my kind of guy, me. Before I declare president, I'm dating somebody that's really special. Oh, so, Cory Booker got a boo. I got a boo. You must not read the blog, Shalomek. That was Mayor Pete trying to straddle the difference between

liking Chick-fil-A's chicken and not approving of Chick-fil-A's politics. Truly. Truly a 2019 kind of straddle. Go ahead, David. No, I think it's an important straddle. And I think that that's, I mean, I guess this is the point of the segment where I get to become overly reductive, so I'm not going to apologize.

But it's a, you know, having that kind of time and space and that sort of just, and also to exist sort of, like I said before, outside of the normal news media space time continuum, you know, that with the expectation that you're not going to ask every question and solve every problem, that you're going to be slightly extraneous to that. It gives you a freedom to be, you know, just more human on both sides, the questioner and the answer, right? And, you know, if you have, if you have, if you if you have one opportunity to ask one question in a press conference of a presidential candidate, you're going to end up with something really insipid, you know, just really, just maybe overly complicated, maybe too many qualifiers or second and third iteration, you know, iterations like we've talked about before, but you're going to end up with a lame question if you have one opportunity. If you have a lot of time to sit down and talk, you're going to end up, I mean, listen, if you went in, if you were at a press conference and you made the lock him up joke, you'd get booed out of the room and rightly so, but as

as like a throwaway line halfway through a 45 minute interview it has a certain amount of power and the reaction or lack thereof carries a lot of weight too. That's totally right. And there is that element of danger because you don't

know what you're going to be asked all the time. And you can't anticipate when Charlemagne turned to Elizabeth Warren who was in the midst of her rally back to the top of the polls and said you're like the white Rachel Dolazol that was that was one of those you know

moments of the campaign we're like oh right that stuff oh oh and um and you know she had this kind of like look on her face like oh my god but uh it was amazing yeah i mean Charlemagne who I don't know if it needs if it needs saying but has been on

the Bill Simmons podcast a couple of times um he has is a is a talented dude um I personally listen a lot more to Ebro in the morning because my dear friend Peter Rosenberg is one of the hosts there and their competition. So I won't go two over the top about either one. But one thing that you know when you realize when you listen to these. And I guess that that's the point is candidates may not be listening to these shows every day. But it does take a lot of confidence to go in because you have to know the terrain a little bit.

But if you know the terrain at all, you know that it's not overly adversarial, right? that if you go in with a certain, it's sort of like the, the old canard about going to France. All you have to do is like try to speak French and then people will be nice to you. If you go in with like, you know,

an open mind and a willingness to have a good time, then it's never going to get too awkward unless you say something deeply, you know, really offensive. Hillary was the ultimate test case for this. Yeah, the host,

the host will, we'll play, you know, we'll play ball with you and, and, and, and, and will bail you out kind of,

kind of furtively if you get into a sticky situation. But it's, but it, but what it shows is a sort of willingness to be human, uh, and that a lot of candidates like literally don't have. And, uh,

and, and, and, and, and, and, and, it's a, it's a positive, that the, and, and,

and the ability to, to, you know, be charismatic on that stage is a very important thing. Uh, in the obitz column, David, Jim Bouton died. Over the weekend.

Wow. He was, the former Yankee pitcher, who was, if anything, probably more famous for writing the memoir, Ball 4, one of the best baseball books of all time. It's funny with reading through the obits and thinking about him a little bit. I couldn't help but think that Lenny Schechter, who was the New York Post columnist, who was the ghost writer, if that's the right word for it, for the book, essentially helped him organize all his thoughts and put it into a big, wonderful, amazing book. that's got to be one of the only times or one of the few times in the history of sports writing where going into business with an athlete was worth it ever because we've seen so many sports writers write memoirs they are almost 90 plus percent of them are unmemorable 95 plus percent of

them could have been written by any random ghost writer and then they plunge you know they they plunge into business with these guys it's not a good idea. it's often stupid. Sometimes the athlete turns out to be Lance Armstrong, and you have to have any answer for lots of stuff that Lance does later, et cetera, et cetera. It's almost always a bad idea. It's only to me a good idea.

If it's something like Ball 4 where, one, you're actually going to say something and put a bunch of stuff out there that's not in the public sphere, but two, that the athlete memoir sort of can do the work that sports journalism isn't doing. So there's all this stuff. about the Yankees and Mickey Mell that sports writers, he either hadn't gotten into print or were unwilling to get in a print. And Schechter realizes, wait a second, we can get all this stuff

into the universe through an athlete memoir that we can't get in the sports pages or haven't gotten on the sports pages. And that to me is the moment you want to go into business with an athlete. But it has to be that. And looking back, right, look at the number of memoirs that have been written since Ball 4, many with the cooperation of sports writers. How many of his, that nirvana. You know, 10? Yeah. 20 generously. That's anyway, I know that sounds like the boringly journalistic point about this whole, this whole great book, which you should absolutely read. But I couldn't help thinking of that over the weekend. Yeah, I mean, a lot of the great books of, you know, the sports writing canon break rules, right? I mean, they,

and they sometimes lay waste to them. The fact that you kind of come away with it still with the still willing to acknowledge that this is one of the all-time can I say seminal works of works of sports writing great one good choice just I think is I think is a testament

to the to the talent of the writer and the subject or you know the co-writers as much as anything else got a debate update for you David the second round of Democratic debates are just over two weeks away whoa man I know more work for us immediate reaction to those debates here at the press box. That is your eternal reminder.

But this Thursday, David, something amazing is going to happen. CNN is going to have its own debate lottery drawing for who gets to participate in which debate. And all of us have been writing the think piece out loud for a few years now about how political TV has become exactly like sports TV. I think we've reached the point. We've done it. CNN now seems like not even something you would see on, on ESP. SPN or T&T. It seems like a like a live ringer video that we shoot over in the chapel. I mean, I think that I think we've reached that point now.

Yeah. We're going to draw the names and the candidates will appear in the, to determine which candidates will appear in which debate. What a moment, what a moment for politics and what a moment for sports television. Yeah. I mean, what am I supposed to add to that? This is so silly. This is the whole, this, I'm already so, yeah. I mean, it's just, it's just, it's just, It's just corny. I mean, they should make it into more of a game show,

make it into like wipeout, put them on top of red bouncy balls and watch them fall in some water. I mean, that's at least people would be interested in that. I'm not even, I'm not even offended on behalf of politics, because I'm not sure politics has some inherent dignity

that we need to be protecting. Yes. I just think, like, this is, if we've all been, hinting that these two forums are coming together, they are now one thing. It is now over. It's over.

So anyway, that think piece is now officially retired. Anonymous source of the week, David. you remember, I think last time we gave it to a source who said the pages of vanity affair that Ray would complete her Jedi training in the new Star Wars movie.

In a similarly related story, we're going to give it this week to a movie insider who talked to the mail on Sunday, the British paper, about the upcoming James Bond movie, which I believe will be Daniel Craig's last. This had some spoilers in it,

which I'm going to skip, but suffice it to say it was about a new female character in the James Bond franchise. Now, I want you to listen to these quotes and tell me if this sounds like a mole on the set of the movie or someone who has a vested interest in promoting the James Bond movie. Okay, here we go. These are anonymous quotes. Bond, of course, is sexually attracted to the new character and tries his usual seduction tricks, but is baffled when they don't work on a brilliant young black woman who basically rolls her eyes at him and has no interest in jumping into his bed.

Well, certainly not at the beginning. okay quote number one this where do we get these inside sources here's number two uh this is also an anonymous quote i'm not i am not making this up by the way this is a bond for the modern era who will appeal to a younger generation while sticking true to what we all expect in a bond film the source added there are spectacular chase sequences and fights and bond is still bond but he's having to learn to deal with the world of hashtag me too Who talks like that? I mean, only people in like James Brady's Parade Magazine column, as far as I know.

So publicists in other ways. Yeah, exactly. What in the world is that? That's hilarious. That was not a press release. That was a movie insider. Oh, my gosh. So the secrets of all leak now, this, I'm sure that was an unauthorized leak.

Congrats to the mail on Sunday. Bad newspaper news of the day, David, Starbucks. has announced that it will no longer sell newspapers, print newspapers at least. According to CNN, it's part of an effort to declutter stores, and here's the part that hurts, remove products,

customers aren't buying. I got to say, I have used the Starbucks buy a real-life newspaper gig more than once. In fact, I think it was a couple of weeks ago in Albuquerque. That's what I was going to say. Every time, I mean, I know this is a very sort of blindered thing to say,

but as a New Yorker, when traveling literally anywhere else in the country Starbucks is the place you go to get the New York Times and

and you know maybe you can go a couple of days but if you're once you get you know if you're a subway I mean a subway

a Sunday Times addict like so many of us are yeah I mean I can't believe that that's not that's not more of a universal institution I guess people

are just off the newspapers yeah Starbucks stopped selling CDs in 2015. That was one of the data points in all these pieces. So we have a new CD and it's a print newspaper. And no wonder my mom's music rotation hasn't changed in the past couple years. This is from the player empowerment era of the NBA, David, which you hear so much about. We now talk about the NBA. We talk about how players get to build teams. They get to escape contracts.

They engineer their own trades. Well, Anthony Davis was just introduced as the newest member of the Los Angeles Lakers. after getting himself traded from L.A. to L.A. from the New Orleans Pelicans. He was at a press conference. Listen to how he described those events. I think the most difficult part for me was just not knowing, you know, the unknown. You know, it was whether, you know, I get traded or whether now go back to New Orleans. So I think the unknown was just the most difficult for me. And then when, you know, it was announced that I was being traded,

I want to say it was a sign of relief. It was just, you know, you know, something that, you know, that I thought about for a long time. Obviously, it was tough for me to, you know, leave a city that I've been playing for for seven years. But I think it was, you know, best for me and it was my time. But, you know, when I found out I was being traded to the Lakers, I realized it was an unbelievable opportunity for me to be here, the wonderful organization,

and then get to play alongside, you know, LeBron, and obviously now, the players that we have now, but back then, before, it was really just LeBron here. You see where we are in the player-empowerment era? The players can make the trades, can fulfill the rosters, but you can't really come out and say that yet. it's not it's not cool to say

I made the New Orleans Pelicans trade me because I didn't want to play there anymore. Yeah. And I wanted to play with LeBron James instead. Which I think has got to be the next step, right? Because if we all know the players could do these things and a lot of us, including both people on this podcast, are okay with the players doing these things,

we've got to get to the point at some point where the players can actually admit to doing these things. Yeah. Right? And again, I'm not trying to. a cast playmer. It's just funny that all the conversation is about Kauai and AD and LeBron and and everybody else making these moves. And then we get to the press conference. I found out I was traded to the Lakers and I thought, wow, this is a great opportunity for me. He's been pushing to be traded at Lakers for like six months. Yeah. He and his agent. Anyway, I look forward to that

day because I think we, I think that the real test will be when we can actually talk about this stuff. Maybe you can have more of an argument about how the NBA should be run. All right. It's time for David Shoemaker. Guess is the Strain Pun headline. David's favorite part of the podcast, TM. This week's headline, David came to us from a whole bunch of people.

Efon Wu, Ben Keelholz, Derek Ashworth, Andrew Johnson, Matthew Haber, Paul Berenger, and Rob the Sports Grouch. And at that point, I had to cut it off. There was a something like unanimity in press box world that David should guess a headline about chess. That is the game chess on ESPN.com. Maybe not to what you thought was Esquire in the 60s, but David, listen to this. Grandmaster Igor's Rousis has admitted to cheating at a tournament in France after he was caught using his phone in the bathroom.

Okay. This is like, I think this is like how you cheat on an AP test in high school. I got to go to the bathroom and then you go in and get some answers I think Igor Grandmaster Igor's Rouses went into the bathroom

and opened up his chess app and said what move do I make now? That's kind of the thumbnail The part you need to focus on, David, is a chess grandmaster getting caught cheating in the bathroom. What is the ESPN.com strained pun headline?

I felt confident about this. I'm talking my, I'm filibustering at the moment. I felt a little bit of confidence in the fact that it was recommended by so many people that I thought it might, there must be like a notable pun that would, that would spring to mind. Uh, and then chess brings me back down to, uh, square one, which I know is not a chess metaphor. This is a good one. This is even better than I was expected. Okay. So, um, it's, uh, do I need to know any chess terms that have not, that weren't in You're okay. Chess Grand Master getting caught cheating in the bathroom.

Gets caught cheating in the bathroom. I'm really hung up on the fact that there is an old sadly passed away wrestler who went by Grandmaster Sex-A. You were on the right track if not in wrestling. Think of another wing of the arts. Oh, oh. Grandmaster Flash? I'm just looking at Alameda right now.

A little, a little, a little, a little pun action. Oh, Grandmaster flush? Yeah, that's the whole headline? Grandmaster flush. I'm on a half, a half-ass roll right now with these things. I feel great. You are, you've got like three or four in a row. Grandmaster flush.

Oh my gosh, that's really good. Yes, you're making gets bid for headline immortality. He is David Shoemaker. I'm Brian Curtis, Chris Almeida, whose voice you just heard helps with research. Jim Cunningham is our producer. More lukewarm takes on the media later this week. See you then, David. See you later, Brian.

David. Wow, tossing it right to me, huh? Yeah, it's all you, buddy. The worst writer of his generation. Fuck off. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Just leave the room. If you clown one million moms for being mathematically challenged, congrats.

For about as disposable as gum. Who talks like that? I mean, only people in like James Brady's Parade Magazine column, as far as I know. So publicist, another way. Yeah, exactly. I am not making this up, by the way. Oh, crap, we're about to get in it right here. Why do you think this has happened?

Because he doesn't like us. No, the appropriate answer is fuck off. Oh, oh. Yeah, I think explaining it. Jesus Christ. Stupid. Just plain stupid. Dumber than a piece of carpet.

Yeah. What a moment. What a moment for politics and what a moment for sports television. Anyway, what a weird episode. Wow.