The Press Box - Checking in on the Trump Trial, Weekend Sounds from the NBA and How “The Phantom Menace” Changed the Media

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

Hello media consumers! Bryan and David kick off the week by checking in on the Trump trial and discussing how we have been getting updates without it being televised, including real-time updates from the New York Times (0:21). They then get into a few things from NBA playoff weekend, including the following: Shaq telling Nikola Jokic that Shai Gilgeous-Alexander deserves to be NBA MVP (7:51) Some very interesting sounds during Luka Doncic’s press conference (10:41) How do NBA analysts judge teams when they keep getting blown out (12:47) JJ Redick's intrigue over the Lakers’ coaching vacancy and whether or not he would still keep his podcast (24:22) Later, in the Notebook Dump, they discuss the 25th anniversary of ‘Phantom Menace’ and how it changed media (35:12). Plus, the Overworked Twitter Joke of the Week, Only in Journalism, and David Shoemaker Guesses the Strained-Pun Headline. Hosts: Bryan Curtis and David Shoemaker Producer: Brian H. Waters Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Join me, Danny Kelly, along with Danny Hyfitz and Craig Horlebeck every week on the Ringer Fantasy Football Show as we prepare for the 2024 fantasy football season. We'll cover all the biggest news and topics across the league as well as whatever weird topics our listeners email us about. That's the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on Spotify. David? Yeah. Let's start by checking in on the Trump trial. Sounds great. You know, it's not on television, the Trump trial?

Well, you'd be forgiven for not realizing that because it's being covered on television, as if it's on television. But yes. It's being covered on television like it is a major international event. I flipped over to CNN today and they, because the Trump trial is not on TV, they've built a kind of tweet module into the left hand side of the screen. Yes. So we get text-based updates from the courtroom. Yeah, this isn't exactly how we imagine what like the, you know, postmodern news network broadcasting should be like, but it's not so different. I'm sure everybody at someone has been like, how can we make tweets work on the live broadcast? And the tweets are amazing. Like I turned in right before the lunch break today. And one of the tweets or tweet-like objects was Judge Merchan is off the bench. See you at 2 p.m., Murchon says.

So we're doing the night court like interstitial moves between parts of the trial. Love it. Also, have you noticed the giant cast that CNN was bringing out? I was, I was flipping over, I was watching CNN the other night, I was flipping channels during an NBA game and mostly just, you know, keep my employment record up at the ringer.com. And it was a giant panel, the sort of, you know, panel that Bill, and others make fun of during like the NFL playoffs or whatever, what it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

It was like nine people were up there, including Brian Stelter, who's apparently rejoined the family. I don't know if this is he back? Maybe they just had an extra chair and they were like, like, who do we still nominally have under contract? Who are we still paying off? He was on today when I was watching.

I think it's like Brian never left. Yeah, I know. He's still there. But then I, I must have been watching it like 858. And then I flipped over the basketball. I went back to commercial, I flipped back, and the TV, and the show, the nominal show had changed over. So the host was different, I believe, but there were two hosts that were there.

It's Caitlin Collins plus. And then, and, but the entire, like, multi-person panel had turned over too, I think. It was just like they, but the set was the same. The graphics were pretty much the same, but they just, they just wheeled in a whole other cast. Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a lot. It's, they, that green room must have been bustling. They also did the sports thing where they have the cast inside and then they have the cast on a balcony overlooking the courthouse. Yeah. Yeah, I can't quite tell if being at the courthouse is a badge of honor or if that kind of places you in the B team. Because, you know, like on CNN, on MSNBC, particularly they don't, you know, they, they'll take their anchors and put them there by the courthouse sometimes, you know, and I can't tell if that.

that's a promotion or a demotion as it pertains to their role because it's you're right there by the action but it's not exactly like being sent to the front lines of a war zone or something you're just now you're the person we like throw to you know when someone else is hosting your show it's a little bit confused as the politics yeah it feels a little bit like that jack collinsworth rodney harrison pseudo studio show on a bc yes yes we're like are they part of the main show or they kind of studio show 1B. Yeah, it's hard to tell. I mean, I think that's the purpose on the football shows, right?

Just like the, you can make the case to the talent, to the agents involved that this is even bigger than being on the panel. But, you know, whether or not it's, how that, you know, comes across watching at home, I guess, is up to the viewer. How surprised were you to see Phil Sims doing CNN trial coverage after his contract wasn't renewed by CBS? I'm kidding case anyone

thinks that's real the New York Times David is also doing its own version of the 2024 wire machine you can go to the Trump trial page on their website where they have real-time updates

by and I counted this today at least five people reporting from inside the courthouse they sort of built a model for this right I mean in the post blog world I feel like the Times live blogging, live tweeting, live coverage template is one of the only ones that,

you know, really gets the sort of traction that a reported piece does, right? Isn't that where we all go to sort of keep up with these events? And then, and now this is more, now it becomes super pertinent, right? Because it's the people, this is as fast as anyone is getting the news, right? There's, nobody's live in the courtroom. There's no live feed. This isn't just a, you know, eight person staff blogging about a debate or whatever. Now this is, they're covering it in the way that everybody's covering it. And the stars are doing it on the New York Times now. I think if we peaked over at that website five, 10 years ago, it would be the website person. Back when that was a distinction, now it's Maggie Haberman. Yeah. It's Jonathan Swan at the courthouse. And by the way,

they are competing with Bill, as in Bill Simmons, to be the body language. doctor. In this case of the Trump trial, these are actual New York Times updates from today. Trump's eyes are mostly closed during the testimony about Daniels, that's Stormy Daniels. He is shifting in his seat and moving his head side to side. Here's another one. Trump, whose eyes have been closed, leans forward to examine the email being displayed on screen as evidence. Yet another one, Trump muttered something aloud at the mention of locker room talk. There was one. the other day would Trump whispering to his lawyer

and whispering to Eric Trump, his son, it was sitting behind him. And I'm like, it's mildly interesting that Trump is whispering. It would be very interesting to know what Trump was saying. Yeah, of course. But we don't know. So we're just cataloging the whisper.

Are we, the closed eye thing, is this now just like to try to normalize the potential, or the story that he was asleep in the courtroom? He's just trying to be like, no, I'm just a guy. closed in court kind of guy? Yeah, just concentrating. Just to, you know, thinking

legal strategy with my eyes are closed. I think that's exactly what it's for. By the way, looking over at CNN, right before we push record today, the Chiron said soon, colon, Michael Cohen returns to the stand. Great stuff from everybody covering the Trump trial.

All right, coming up on the press box, David, a bunch of NBA notes from the league's new heel announcer to Jamal Murray's love of announcers to Luca Donchich's very uncomfortable press conference. And something a little different here on the press box, we look back at the 25th anniversary of Star Wars, Episode 1, The Phantom Menace, how it changed the way we cover pop culture. All that and much more on the press box, a button in the ringer podcast network. Hello media consumers, Brian Curtis, David Shoemaker, and producer Brian Waters here.

We'll catch up on the NBA rights negotiations. in one sec. But first, David, I got a bunch of playoff observations for you. Why don't we start with Shaquille O'Neill on inside the NBA telling Nicola Yokic he didn't deserve the MVP. Joker, as the president of the big man alliance, you are the president of the big man alliance. You know, I love you.

The best player in the league. I want to congratulate you. But I want you to hear from me first. I thought the SGA should have been the MVP. That's no disrespect to you. But congratulations. And what do you guys have to do to get back on track versus Minnesota? Is that the appeal of inside the NBA in one soundbite?

Yeah. Yeah, I can understand that argument. I mean, it's the level of comfort and familiarity that those guys have with every player and just their renown. You know, I mean, they're in such a position of sort of social power in those that they can get away with something like that. Yes. Standing within the league.

Like, Shaq has the right to say that to Joker. Yeah. No, I mean, listen, Shaq. It's not, it's not, it's not totally a field of something you might hear on just like a podcast, you know, that you'd be like just some just talking or radio show. You know, if you go, if a pro athlete goes on the local radio show and the host is, you know, is on the record as not having picked them, they have to fess up to that. to some extent, you know, but they make it into a joke, you know, it's just like, yeah, ha, ha, Brian didn't even think you deserve to be MVP. What do you think about that, man? But Shaq just says it was such authority, you know, I mean, because he doesn't have to answer to

anybody even, even if he meant it to be a little funny. There is no, it came across as like, as humorless as possible. Um, so yeah, yeah, is that what you, is that what you're thinking when you ask that? No, I, no, I think that's exactly what I'm thinking. It's this weird combination of real talk. We have no sacred cows here on inside the NBA. But also what we say really doesn't matter all that much. Yeah. We don't take it that seriously. There's this lightness to it. Yeah. I love how Shaq pivoted to like a very normal question. What do you have to do to get back into the series? Yeah. Also, yeah. What were you guys thinking there on the bench when the score was getting run up? Yeah. Also, I love the, I wanted you to hear it from me. Is it like, I mean,

Presumably, it could have, it would have gotten back to him because he would have set it out there on the air at some point or you probably already had. So I don't know how much was really at stake, but I wanted, you know, between us. I wanted you to hear this directly from my mouth. I don't think you were the MVP. Did you happen to catch the Luca Donchage sex press conference? Yes, I caught some of it live. But yeah, I saw most, I saw most of it online. People miss it. This was last Thursday in the media room after game two. to Maverick's Thunder, listen for the odd noise

while Luca is answering a very routine question. I just started sharing the ball and our energy was great. What do you think? I hope that's not life. Luca's little closer there got blogged as,

I hope that's not life. I think he said, I hope that's not live. Yeah. Not that that really matters in the world we live in today. I think my favorite part of that other than what the hell was that sports writer? Other person in the media room doing?

Yeah. We've heard tales of sports writers not keeping their eye on the game before. I think I've been told that personally that there's been some computer time used in an improper way in a press box. Never heard it bleed into the actual press conference. But I love that Luca had these huge Mike Francesca. I just woke up eyes. He heard the sound. And then he recognized what it was and just put his hand over his face.

Unbelievable. Congratulations, sports writers for living up to what we all really think about you. We talk about it over and over again. I mean, the goal in these moments is to get a human reaction, not of the person you're interviewing, right? I mean, just to actually get something that's not just a canned answer, I guess that was a success.

That's a good way to do it. NBA analyst's biggest challenge in these playoffs, David. It strikes me that it is, how do you judge teams day to day during a series when they keep getting blown out? Yeah. The Knicks lost last night to the Pacers

by 32 points. T. Wolves were getting blown out by Denver all night and they got it a little bit closer at the end. Saturday, Boston blew out Cleveland. Friday, Denver beats Minnesota by 27. Yeah. Day before that, Cleveland beats Boston by 24. Yeah.

We hear NBA analysts, including our own all the time, say, don't be a prisoner of the moment. Don't overread the last thing that you saw. Yeah. How do you do that when teams keep getting, not just losing games, but get destroyed, and it's often both teams getting destroyed within the same playoff series. It's really confounding. I mean, you know, if it were one series or if they're a particular series where it makes a certain amount of sense. You know, I feel like we're accustomed to seeing this.

This is the sort of Boston Celtics that we know and love, right? I mean, they're just an absolute steamroller when everything's clicking. And when they're not, they're, I mean, they're just sort of like. a team, a whole team, the whole team is sort of a front runner. You get them a little bit of downhill momentum and they're just, they're, they're going to win by a ton. And I can also just really disappoint you. They can just get their hearts ripped out.

But it, but it's happening so much. I mean, after Denver lost those first two games, I clicked on that game three in sometime in the second quarter and I just did, it took me like really five minutes to process what I was watching. I just don't understand, like, I just, didn't understand. I mean, usually, you know, I mean, you would think a 20-point win would be meaningful in a broader way. I guess 20 points is the same as like seven points, you know, when we were watching as kids or teenagers or whatever. So maybe it's not that big of a deal, but it just, it doesn't,

I just don't know what to do with it, you know? I mean, and if you're, if this is your job, I don't really know what to do with it either. I mean, listen, a lot of us, don't be a prisoner of the moment is all good and well, but like if your job is to be a postgame podcaster, like, no, your job is to be a prisoner of the moment. I mean, nobody will listen to a podcast where the host was just like, well, you know, I don't think we really know anything. Once again, you know, join me back here tomorrow where I say the same thing. I have no conclusions to draw from what I just watched. Yeah. And so you have to be a prisoner of the moment. It's funny. I saw, you know, Bill or boss Bill Simmons, I thought handled it, like couched everything appropriately,

when he did his podcast last week talking about what if the nuggets get swept? He was just like, now this is just a hypothetical. You know, we'll spill up. We'll go on from there. This is what's going to happen to Anthony Edwards hypothetically and blah, blah, blah. But that's sort of what you have to do

is just be like extreme and couch it well, right? And if you think that like, oh, look, the bad takes, it's like, no, what are you going to do? You're going on after a game. Like people are dying for takes. And again, like, I think the nuggets will come back and even this. It's not even, like, that's, that in the moment sounds even more ridiculous than like it would have,

even in retrospect, knowing that it was correct, you know? Absolutely. Like, it's just not the conversation that anyone's having. So yeah, you're not just bound, not, you're not just under the specter of being of getting these like wildly incompatible results one night after the other. But also you're operating in this weird ecosystem where you have to be having the conversation, or leading the conversations that people are having. And a lot of times it's just steering you in an inaccurate direction,

not that you would know until after your writing or show or whatever is already done. When the Nuggets went down, oh, two, I had this image of the Nuggets writers scrambling to get there. Now they tell us stories together. I mean, look, the Sons riders, the Lakers writers, they had a head start on this. The Bucks riders,

like, you know how the season's going to end. And it's just a matter of polishing those anecdotes. and getting that story ready to hit publish as soon as it does. But Nuggets writers, you were not thinking of a second round exit, and you certainly weren't thinking of a second round exit via sweep. No, absolutely not. You probably went to, you know, game one, even game two. And you were just telling your husband or wife, whatever, just like, don't worry, honey,

I'll be home 15 minutes after the game is over. We can just pop on a movie, you know? There's nothing significant is going to get. I won't prep anything significant for tomorrow. and now suddenly you're in, now they tell us territory. Which is, I would have preferred, or I would have been interested to see the nuggets get swept strictly because of that.

Because you're right, they're not prepped for this. They're sort of searching for the answers. I'm not sure they have some inklings, but it would have been a lot of extrapolation, you know? I mean, when it comes to that much of a shock to everybody, you got to figure out, you got to figure out the hook, you know? It's, and it is, I mean, you point this out all the time, how how they people have there now they tell us pieces which i think is the term that you coined

like they have them just like just ready to roll you know i mean this is this is a year-long project you know and they're just as soon as the game's over they're they're done um which is just hilarious when you think it through but all the lakers guys and everyone had a different darvin ham anecdote yeah ready to lead with yeah this is what we're going to write he's going to get fired. So here we go. The team lost confidence in Darvinham. Yeah. We got it. That was a crazy

cycle too because it also seemed like everybody was taking exception to the blaming of Darvinham. Right? It's like you either wrote the piece you're either the writer who wrote the piece that kind of put the blame on Darwinham or you were taking exception to him being

scapegoated or both like you were both people in the process, you know? Like I... Yes. I don't know. I mean, I understand that the sort of formal scapegoating process is one that's driven from on high, you know, and on some level it is your obligation to report it, to report people are saying to you and report what you've seen with your own eyes and whatever else. But you also need, like, I wish someone were just like reporting out the scapegoating, right? I mean, just actually draw those lines in print instead of it just being the,

the sort of biased, you know, the implicitly biased reportage. And then everyone else saying, oh, yeah, but that's scapegoating. Oh, yeah, but there's a lot of bias in there. Oh, yeah. Did you hear Richie Miller during the game? Was that last night where he was like, we got some players in this league who are always blaming the coaches. Yeah.

Instead of taking responsibility for themselves. Like, can we just not say LeBron's name? Yeah. We just go ahead and say LeBron James scapegoating the guy. And sometimes I don't get drawn so clearly. I thought about you immediately when I saw the heel wrestling announcer come to the NBA playoffs. Are you talking about Reggie? I'm talking about Reggie.

This was game two, Nick's Pacers in the Garden. Turner's normal announcers are Brian Anderson and Stan Van Gundy. But because of Reggie's history playing the Knicks in the playoffs, in the garden, Turner added him to the crew for one game. In the style, wouldn't you say of Bobby the Brain and Jesse Ventura? Yeah. Well, you're right. I mean, because it's a special event. It's a special occasion.

So it's more like when Bobby the Brain or some other heel manager sits in the booth while their client is in the ring. Like when Bobby the Brain Heenan called the Royal Rumble that Rick Flair won, right? This isn't fair to Flair or that whole thing. I mean, you know, it's a, it's match specific. Yeah, it's, I mean, it was, that was, that was incredible stunt casting. I was, I thought that was, that was really perfect. Didn't you used to call, who is it? Oh, used to call, um, Bill Walton a heel back in the day.

People were always really, people were always really stunned to hear that take because he was, because people would hate Bill Walton. People would talk so much trash about Bill Walton, the color guy. And you're just like, no, I don't understand. He's just, you don't understand. He's just working heel. What does that mean? He was working.

He was absolutely working. And he was saying stuff just to piss people in the audience off. Yeah. And this is before people a little bit younger, Bill Walton started dressing up his uncle Sam and just saying crazy things during college basketball games. He was calling the NBA finals. Oh, yeah.

And he was doing it in such a way that just pissed people. He was working heel. By the way, the Reggie stunt casting was almost too perfect because then they kept focusing on Reggie Miller's playoff history with the Knicks and forgot to talk about Jalen Brunson's entry. Yeah. Whoops. Kind of an important story. Let me give you a good transition here, David. Speaking of heels.

Timberwolves are beating the nuggets in half time of game two of their series. And yet another blowout, by the way. I want you to listen to Kevin Harlan take us to break with the NWO Wolfpack theme song. With Minnesota outscoring Denver in the second quarter 33 to 15.

This is Denver's largest halftime deficit in a home playoff game ever. We take a break and then we take you to our studio the playoffs on TNT presented by Wingstop. Just like you were ready with that Bobby Heenan Royal Rumble reference there. Somebody in the truck at T&T was ready. Oh, yeah. If the wolves are ahead, I got just the thing.

Yeah. The perfect bumper music. By the way, what better way to win over sports Twitter by just having the perfect bumper music? Oh, I know. Gotta love it. I got two announcer stories for you. Great. Number one, Kevin Harlan.

Uh-huh. Colin Nuggets T. Wolves last night. Jamal Murray hits that crazy half-court shot right before halftime. Uh-huh. And he comes over and flexes right in front of Harlem. Mm-hmm. Clearly appreciating the fact that he can see the guy who has just called his miracle shot. Yeah.

Remember last year around this time when Jamal Murray in Western Conference Finals was looking over at Mike Breen of ESPN and calling his own bang. Oh yeah, I totally forgot that. Yes, I do. We could see him mouthing bang on the broadcast. Here is a player that clearly is interested in sports announcers. Oh, yeah. Probably to an unhealthy degree. Jamal Murray, welcome to the press box.

Have you on any time. Second story, David. J.J. Reddick. He is on the number one team at ESPN. he started appearing in the columns about being a possible coach, also a possible Lakers coach. I read that in Dan Wojke's piece the other day. Then Wodge comes on ESPN and say,

ooh, the Lakers are intrigued with potentially hiring LeBron James's podcast partner to be their coach. So one, let us underline the humor if the folks at home aren't already doing it, that ESPN stated reason for getting rid of Jeff Van Gundy was because he was pursuing other head coaching jobs. Yes.

Which he wasn't. The two guys they've hired to replace him, Doc Rivers took a job. It's head coach of the bucks and JJ Reddick is now being sized up for multiple head coaching jobs. That's very, very funny. Here's the other thing I wondered. Could JJ Reddick in any way continue his media enterprises if he was head coach? coach of the Lakers.

I was thinking about this. It's a good question. I mean, separate from, clearly there's no rule. I presume there's no rule against it. I mean, if players have podcasts, I mean, I know that coaches aren't part of the union. I don't know what kind of lateral flexibility they have. I mean, but I mean, and, you know, the actual details of their contracts may indeed prohibit it. That might be standard.

Just to stop your hair, but didn't Steve Kerr have a ringer podcast? Yes. That was a very specific kind of podcast, right? So yeah, maybe not. Just throwing that out there as a data point. I'm guessing if you're, I mean, I guess it depends on how much obviously. I mean, these things are negotiated individually. You know, I'm sure that whatever contracts Steve Kerr assigned 10 years ago didn't have any mention of a podcast in it.

And now presumably, you know, it's within the team's interest. If a team is giving you $50 million, they're probably going to control your audio rights, you know. And I mean, that's a reasonable argument more so than we want to, you know, prohibit you from saying anything that we don't approve of, which is a little bit of a different, you know, more difficult ask. But if, but if there were no contractual language that prohibited it, if you were, like, legally allowed to do it, the more interesting question is, like, would he be able to do it? Yes. And what would he do?

I mean, judging from the his, judging from, you know, centuries of podcast history. I think that the answer is that he would attempt to do it. He would probably make a pivot towards, I don't know if it would be more infrequent, but certainly like, you know, I'm only going to interview legends for the, you know, whatever. I'm going to just kind of pivot the rubric a little bit

so that he could keep doing the podcast and presumably have other people on the podcast network that we're doing the day-to-day, newsier or, you know, more like current player interviews, but he'd be able to keep that afloat by doing a different style of, a slightly different style of podcast. You know, maybe JJ Redick goes on the walkabout to interview all the greatest coaches of all time, because that's what's going to interest him now or something like that. But my guess is that he would try to continue to do it because he's got, he's, because it's, you know, he's got a brand. He's got a media empire that is

being built on his own on his back on the back of his work i mean i think that there is a different version of history where if it were or you know a different point in history where if this weren't a podcast company if this were just a media empire whatever we would very logically be having the conversation is it fine is it is it worth it to j jredic to do this right if j jrottic had already had a he were just an announcer in the 90s early 2000s right it's just like well you know, ESPN's paying him X millions of dollars. How could it possibly be, you know, why would he give that up and potential let someone else steal his seat at ESPN to go take a flyer on a coaching career that might last one year? But I see all these. I mean, Frank Vogel got $50 million

and, you know, and got bounced with most of that still left on the books. He's going to get all that money. Like, how do you say no to that? You know, I mean, it seems, it would just seem kind of crazy to. But I think that particularly in this day and age where you can figure out a way to keep the, if you can figure out a way to just keep the other thing going, just enough so that people don't unsubscribe, you know, then you have, then you have this incredible fallback plan and no real financial downside, although I don't know how much money is, I mean, there, I mean, it is, it is conceivable that he's making enough money doing podcasts with LeBron James. And if he could just keep that going, it might, it, I just don't think there's any way he's making

NBA coach money or even, even something. you can make the case where the consistency of it over a 10-year period would justify him not taking the job. If it was solely a financial issue, I think he has to take the coaching job. But I don't know. My guess is if he's allowed, he will find a way to keep the podcast going. Especially the LeBron one. Like, why could you not do, I mean, the best negotiating position you could possibly be in for any contract in this media age is to have a pre-existing profit. property, right? I mean, and imagine if they'll, even if the Lakers were determined to take the, what does LeBron and JJ's show call? If they were, if they were determined to take possession of it, they would have to give them $20 million or something fucking ridiculous just to like, absorb an existing property, even if it's just for the period of time in which those two guys are both employed by the L.A. Lakers. I mean, it would,

That would be a huge chunk of money. So mind the game is the name of the LeBron JJ Pod. Yes. I do this is like you raised like nine interesting questions there. And you know, I'm comparing him to announcers of your. I mean, in a way you can argue that JJ has an even better media perch than they do.

So maybe the coaching money has gone up in the NBA. But he has, he's on the number one team at ESPN. Mm-hmm. which according to the quote unquote framework is going to be the number one team for the finals into the into infinity. He's got his own podcast and then he's got another podcast with the most famous basketball player in the world. So like there's, again, I couldn't give you dollar for dollar what all that is worth. I'd also throw out there that if you heard me, people at home heard me typing, it was me typing J.J.

Reddick career earnings into. Google. Oh, yeah. He made $118 million according to Hoops Heap as a player, which is a lot different than what Doug Collins made during his career, but when he was jumping from NBC and TNT to coaching. Yeah. So he's already got $100 million at the bank. So was that decision driven by, I want to maximize my career earnings or, you know, I really

want to be a head coach or I really want to have a media empire. mentioned last year for a job or two. And it seemed a little bit bizarre because he's just, you know, he hadn't been coaching, you know, and it's clear that he has the mind for it. You can think as highly of them as you want, but built on, at least partly on his podcasting, right? I mean, this is what we're talking about here. Yeah. He wouldn't be the first former player to have no coaching experience to get a head NBA job, but certainly what he has done in the media sphere has helped. Yeah, I think especially coming on the heels of Steve Nash is like not brilliant turn at going from, you know, respected former shooter to, to, you know, head coach.

So that was surprising even then. But now you, now in retrospect, it feels like he was just kind of being discerning. Like, I'm sure people were calling him. And he was just like, yeah, I'm good for now. You know, like, whatever. You're right. He's made a lot of money. He's making a lot of money.

Maybe money's not the thing. That's an incredibly powerful position to be in, you know. I do like your idea of him interviewing legends. Mm-hmm. specifically legendary coaches. Can you imagine the box office of J.J. Reddick interviews Phil Jackson about how to manage egos with the Lakers? That would be fantastic.

And the whole conversation is just a sub-tweet about LeBron and A.D. and Clutch. Well, that's great content. The difficulty is as much power as he might have in these negotiations. We can only speculate. He's not going to, I mean, all that power disappears the moment he walks in to Staples center, sorry, whatever it's called now. Crypto. Crypto and tries to tell LeBron what to do. Whatever familiarity, whatever comfort zone they have doing their podcast.

And I'm not, it's not a knock on LeBron. James. It's just like the power dynamic just shifts dramatically, you know, from like, hey, what do you think about this outlet pass? Let's draw it up and drink some wine. And going from that to like, all right, dude, here's what I need you to do for these four other guys are on the court with you. He's just like, no, I'm going to do what I want? You know, like, what do you do? LeBron, can we run Horn's Chest? Yeah. That play we were explained to everybody.

That's a red wine. And when LeBron says no, he's just like, dude, we podcasted about this. Like, how could you say no? Like, you agree. You agreed with me when I brought this up on our show. Oh, my God. Whenever you and I have a meaningful conversation, I always pull that card out. David, we have a podcast together.

Do you treat me like this? All right, coming up in 30 seconds, it wasn't about George Lucas. It wasn't about the text. of trade routes, it was about the way the pop culture media was changing. I look back at the 25th anniversary of the Phantom Menace. But first, David, let's do the overworked Twitter joke of the week, where we celebrate a gag that was so obvious that all of media Twitter made it at exactly the same time. Send your nominees to at the press box pod where they are always, always gratefully received.

Some happy news for Hawks fans, David. on Sunday Atlanta won the NBA draft lottery and we'll have the number one overall pick. It was an overwork Twitter joke to write. Atlanta is not expected to take another quarterback. Thanks to Kyle A. Madsen, Eric Martin, Brian and Drake and AKT-211-1.

If you join ranks with Adam Schefter to make a nation laugh, congrats. You made the overwork Twitter joke of the week. All right, in the notebook, Dom. I want to talk Star Wars with you. Yes. Because 25 years ago, a little movie called The Phantom Menace came out.

May 19th, 1999 was its release date. Wow. And it's interesting for us because I believe this movie stands at a fork in the road of media time. And the way it was covered is the way that almost all movies of that kind are covered today. So let's set this up as two Uber nerds to quote triumph the insult comic dog who were awaiting the phantom medicine 1999. It was the first Star Wars movie in 16 years. Star Wars, even though it wasn't a movie or a TV show, was fair to say, all around us during that period. Yeah.

novels. It was just pop culture. It was very present, even if it wasn't in the theaters. And here we were, David, seeing this memory from our childhood, this beloved thing, get rebooted. Yeah. Something that would then happen to us over and over again as we stumbled through life. Phantom Minus is to me one of the first time a studio has revealed a movie. in pieces, at least in a way that we could experience together on the internet. Now, whenever there's a casting announcement, a teaser trailer, it's all aggregated, right? Yeah. We're building this picture of a thing everyone wants to see. That's pretty new in 1999. Yeah. In the age of dial-up internet that you have sites like Ain't It Cool News and various news

that are going, okay, so we know this, and we know this is the name of Queen Amidala. Yeah. And this is the planet the Gungans live on and try to assemble everything together. Yeah. Before the movie ever comes out. That was fascinating.

Now something that happens with everything on social media all the time. Do you remember the teaser, trailer for the Phantom Menace. I don't. You don't. This is the one that comes out in November 1998. People are going to the theater to watch the teaser trailer. Okay, I remember that whole thing.

But what was it, was there anything revealed in the teaser trailer? What was the takeaway? Well, this is the one where it opens with the Gungans walking out of the fog. Remember this? Oh, yeah. We saw Yoda. We saw pod racing. We saw Natalie Portman in the Kabuki theater makeup.

Yes. Most of us had not glimpsed anything from this movie. Yeah. By the way, that teaser trailer attached to, wait for it, meet Joe Black. Love that movie. You and I thought that was good in 1998. That was good in 1990s. That was our idea of high tone cinema.

Again, what's fascinating, though, that trailer comes out, and this is at the edge of the period where a trailer was not just the thing to watch in the theater. You could go to your dorm room or your off-campus apartment, and I'm sure you and I did this, and watch it again and again, and pause it. Look at that. Yeah.

What's that little reveal here? I mean, again, think of the Star Wars, the trailer for every Star Wars thing on Disney Plus. Mm-hmm. And how much it's been paused. And more to the point, dude, how much filmmakers now fill their trailer very carefully with Easter eggs because they know they're

going to be scrutinized. Oh, yeah. Like that is done as an offering to the fan girls and fan boys out there. Absolutely true. This was still happening in the old media world. Hey, it's actually coming out in the theater. You have to buy a ticket to see it within operated in the new media world as well. Yeah, it had both.

I mean, they were teasing. I mean, I remember the year. reading my casting choices online. I remember, yeah, I mean, like you said, the names of some of the characters. You start piecing different things together. We knew who the kid was. Like, we knew this was a story

about Anakin Skywalker. As a matter of fact, they released that famous poster of Anakin with Darth Vader's shadow. Like before, that was well before the movie came out. That was the first poster, right? Yes.

It was definitely early. So you knew the broad strokes of the plot. I mean, this had been what George Lucas was talking about interviews for, for 20 years. He was like, this was the story he wanted to tell. But, yeah, I mean, listen, you're talking about the way the media covers it. I mean, this probably wasn't at the beginning, but, you know, the local news loves nothing more than a, than a, you know, video shot of a bunch of people waiting in line for something. And this had a bunch of people waiting in line in costumes, like, well, like late into

the night, you know, like that was... Oh my God. How many local news hits conservatively do you think were created from Star Wars lines in 1999? It's unknowable. Unknowable.

5,000? Yeah. Like you did it in the morning news and then he came back in the evening news and did it again and did it at 530 and 630. People are still in line to see the phantom menace. It was a little bit fake too because you remember like there was like,

I think this, wasn't this the first movie? It was the first movie in my recollection. It wasn't the first time you could go see a movie at midnight on like as the clock struck midnight when it came out. But it was the first time where I feel like the midnight got pushed back to like 9 p.m. or something like that. Like there were. Yes.

Like the movie technically came out on a Friday, but we saw it on Thursday at like six or something. You know, we saw it at like a reasonable hour the night before. And I, because I just remember, despite the lines on TV, there was no shortage of tickets. Like you had to get it. You had a plan to get in there,

but you didn't have to wait for four days to get your ticket to get in. This wasn't like the dark ages. And I remember walking out of the theater and walking right into the line of like the lines that we had seen on TV waiting to get into the show that was after hours.

You know, like it was, people were still waiting in line almost performatively because you didn't have to be in, if you really wanted to be the first one to see the movie, you would have gone to a different show. You just wanted to be, maybe you really wanted to go to the midnight show or you really

want, maybe you're just getting off work, but I guess you wouldn't be waiting in line for hours on a costume if you were just getting off work. I don't know. It's very strange. I mean, it was very strange to think back on. It was also, but go on. No, I was just going to say, I should have a sharper memory of this, but I seem to remember you and me and our pal Eric seeing this at a quasi-suburban multiplex outside of Fort Worth. No, that was the second one. or the third one. That was the second one, I believe. Okay.

Because we took Eric's brother, right? Is this what you're saying? That was the fan of menace, dude. Oh, really? Yeah. I think so. Because next week is David and Brian trying to remember other things from college. I wasn't going to go into great detail.

I remember very specifically walking out of the movie theater in downtown Fort Worth to go see. Maybe we saw it multiple times, but I remember seeing it, walking out of the theater and seeing it and seeing, talk about, you call this Uber nerds. First of all, we were not waiting in costume like some of the dudes in that Triumph, Inult Comic Dog infamous video. But we also walked out and saw one of our friends

dressed in costume waiting to get into the next showing. Okay, I do remember that. He was dressed as Obi-1. Yeah. So I mean, that had to be opening night. He wasn't waiting around to go see a different move. I mean, like, all right. One of us is having Phantom Menace Mandela.

Phantom memories. It was, it, it is interesting. I mean, in terms of just the way that we think about these things now, because there were so many of us like massive Star Wars fans, I think that, I think the lines were informative to us too. Like, you know, even if we weren't dressing up and waiting in them, we might have been a year or two prior.

And I think it was the seeing those lines on video was the first time that you realized that there were, this was a culture, right? that like your fandom was not unique to you and your four friends or whatever. I was just talking to my wife yesterday, actually, about adult swifties. And like where what the, what the basically what's the deal with this phenomenon. But like, you just imagine your parents being as excited about literally anything in pop culture as some like, you know, 45 year old people are about Taylor Swift. You know, I mean, or. No freaking chance.

But it's not just Taylor Swift, right? I mean, it's like, there's so many things. Like all of our childhood fascinations or just general fascinations, we just indulge them to such a different degree. And, I mean, part of that is, I think, stems from the fact that like nerd culture, whatever has been just, society's just wrapped its arms around it. You know, there's so many people like this. Like, dude, when we were kids, we're going way down to the rabbit hole here.

But like, I was a kid who played Dungeons and Dragons. and loved Star Wars or whatever other, like, cliche box you want to check. Nerd. And I knew, we knew the adults who were like, who shared our passions. And at the time, I sort of revered them, you know? This is like a quote unquote grown up or like whatever who like loves this stuff as much as I do. At the time, it seemed really cool. In retrospect, you know, I mean, some of those guys, I'm sure were cool.

Some of those guys had problems, man. not exactly the kind of people your parents are like yeah why don't you just go be like Chuck when you grow up he's got a nice nine to five at the comic book shop you know he seems like a good role model to love Star Wars and wrestling what a loser that guy is keep him away from your kids um but yeah it's just it's just a huge culture shift man I mean listen our parents could probably talk talk probably you know talk their friends ears off about whatever the relevant episode of cheers was that we all sat down and watched at the same time. But this was the big shift for, in terms of, I think,

just these microcultures becoming our substitute for monoculture. I think this is the moment where these like sort of these little microcultures became the substitute for monoculture. It's just sort of like whatever your club is becomes your identity. Let's talk about the shift in media that comes out of the change that you're talking about there. Because 1999, the internet is still pretty rickety. It is still a world of mainstream movie critics writing for newspapers and magazines.

And I do remember when it comes to the Phantom Menace, we're all sitting there waiting where it, is it going to be good? Can it possibly live up to these old movies? And Roger Ebert, who was one of the few movie critics, people like us trusted to get it about something like Star Wars. Comes out with a review giving the Phantom Menace 3.5 stars on a scale of one. a zero to four. And I looked this up today.

That came out 12 days before the movie open. I remember this big sigh of relief across the nerd internet when that review was published. But then the mainstream critics start reviewing the movie. And I was looking to Rotten Tomatoes today, dude. You can find an Owen Glyberman B-minus in Entertainment Weekly there. You can find a kind of positive mixed review from Janet Maslin in New York Times, but they crushed it. Yeah.

Absolutely crushed it. And I think there are two notable things about what happens with the fan reaction after the movie came out. We remember people turning on George Lucas. Yeah. We remember that. But what they also did was they turned on critics, mainstream critics, and said, you don't get this.

What the hell do you possibly know about Star Wars? This movie is not for you. This movie is for us. and when you talk about microcultures becoming the monoculture, this is the moment or one of the moments when all those Star Wars fans are like, you know what, we're going to use the growing internet and social media,

which comes along a few years later, and we're going to be the media now. This is not going to be a universe of movie critics anymore. This is going to be a universe of us. Yeah. This is the straight line to every two-hour, long YouTube review you see of a Star Wars movie to Ringer podcast, the vulture to everything else, right?

We're taking over here. Yeah. And I think a lot of that, you know, a big, I won't say comes out of necessarily, but a big data point in that timeline is the reaction to the mainstream reviews of the prequels. Yeah. It's funny because as simple as it would be to dismiss that.

And I think some of those, you know, to some extent it is dismissable. there's still some validity there, right? It's like, if the argument is not that no Star Wars, the Phantom Menace was good actually, then you could, I mean, you can actually make the case pretty easily just like that you don't get it. It doesn't mean, it's not that your review is wrong.

I mean, you could just sort of set that aside and just be like, you don't get it, at least you don't get it to the way that we get it. You know, it's like, there's a reason why we leave some stuff to the experts, right? It's not an expert in pro or not necessarily, synonymous in those cases, you know, just because that you're, you know, steeped in what a French film noir or something does not mean that you know, that you understand what George

Lucas is trying to do better than I do. And there's, and I think the real thing there was, yeah, I mean, the internet be allowing people to sort of rest control of that from mainstream media outlets, but also to speak directly to each other, right, to find, for, for, for, for a quote unquote regular person to find an audience speaking about something. And that was as as, I mean, you mentioned ain't it cool news. And that's obviously the point of reference for all this stuff. But man, that site was borderline unnavigable. I mean, just from a purely mechanical standpoint, right?

It was very well designed. When it got redigned, it was, it looked nice. But it was like, it was like you were like turning a heavy crank outside to try to like, you know, find the link you wanted to, you wanted to click on. And the stories themselves were just, just pigeon English. You know, I mean, it was like you couldn't even understand what you were reading half the time. But it got it through to you, you know, and that was what we desperately wanted. And that's the whole, this whole world sort of grew up out of that. Have you noticed some of the reconsiderations of the Phantom Menace this week?

We've had people, David, arguing or walking right up to arguing that it's actually a good move. Yeah. I don't know if these are younger people who are like, this is my Star Wars. Yeah. And it's always going to be my Star Wars because this is the first one I saw. And so go away, Gen X, goofball, don't tell me what to do, which is an understandable impulse. Or if people are just bored with saying the fandom menace is terrible, so they're slate pitching their way into a reconsideration. Yeah, I think it's probably a combination of the two. I mean, it's really not that bad of a movie.

But it would have been hard for any movie to live up to the expectations that we were putting on it when that movie came out, right? I mean, just the way that the first trilogy had been had been deified, you know. I mean, you said it was everywhere. It frankly was not as everywhere as it is now. I mean, it was merchandising-wise more everywhere than just about any other comparable property. But still, I mean, like, I mean, if you saw somebody in a. Star Wars shirt, you know, in 1991 that you were, that you really liked. You would like have to go ask them where they got it and like go and go through a lot of effort to try to procure it for yourself. You might find this shop and they just be like, sorry, we're out of that. You know,

all we have is an extra small. I guess try to come back in three months, you know, like whatever. Like it wasn't as, it wasn't quite as prevalent as it is as it could possibly imagine, you know, I mean, as you might imagine if you weren't alive then. But it was a point of reference. It was like referentially bigger than anything else in the world, right? I mean, there were many other science fiction properties out there, you know, there was Star Trek and Doctor Who and everything else. I was like, it was big, but like, no, I mean, if there was any sketch, any reference made to sci-fi, you were talking about Star Wars, you know?

And I mean, for, and this is for 20 years, you know, I mean, it was, it was, it was really, really just that big. and so the expectation of it was just out of control high there was just I mean there's it could it there's no almost it would have been impossible for it to work but you know it's also there's also talking about the way that we covered it I always think my point of reference in the modern age is always the Game of Thrones when everybody started using the phrase bad writing for like seemingly out of nowhere

this was the original bad writing like we like they had to the the It's talking about the now they tell us. But you got now they tell us about George Lucas, just like, he's left and right in that moment. It's just like, oh, by the way,

we forgot to tell you, when he made the first trilogy, he worked closely with this cadre of like writers and obviously that other people were directing them. And he was much more hands off than you might realize making the second and third movies of the first trilogy. And then this one,

he went to totally zagged in the total other directions. You know, he's got some just monomaniacal sort of impulses going. And everybody, and we fans are, just like, wait, what? Wait, you mean he's not the guy that we should have been dreaming of doing all this steering the ship?

And now that that kind of conversation is just everywhere when you talk about Marvel movies or anything else. Totally, totally. Just so much more awareness of how these things are put together than we had way back in the year of 1999. All right, it's time for a feature that the force is always strong with. I think it's time for David Schumaker guesses the strain pun headline. Thursday's headline about the White Sox and their opportunity to embrace their crappiness was there for the tanking.

Today's headline, David, comes to us from Dick Blanston. It's from the L.A. Times. There's a Disney fight, David. And no, not Nelson Peltz versus Bob Eiger. I mean a real fight at a Disney park. A group of women attacked another woman. The L.A. Times reports lying on the ground at Disney, California, Adventure Park. resulting in at least one person being ejected from the theme bark according to authorities.

So think of the happiest place on earth with a fight. As you ponder, what was the LA Times' strained pun headline? It was just a physical altercation. It was. That kind of fight. We already said the happiest place on Earth, so it can't be that, right? It's not the happiest place on Earth. Oh, the sloppiest?

place on Earth. That is funny. Not sure it was definitely a slap. The kind of an old fashion word for a fight. It's an old fashion. Scrap. The scrappiest place on Earth. The Scrappiest place on Earth.

He is David Shoemaker. I'm Brian Curtis. Protection Magic by Brian Waters. Coming up Thursday, David. Guest host of this podcast. It's going to be Max Tanny. Nice. of semaphore.

Yes. Who I noticed in his newsletter last night was writing about NBA podcasts. He's already limbering up for the press box. Here we go. Max Taney Thursday, Shoemaker returns Monday with more lukewarm takes about the media.

See then, David. See you later, Brian.