The Press Box - Chris Berman on Covering Super Bowls, ESPN’s Three Eras, and the Origin Story of ‘NFL Primetime’

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

Hello, media consumers! Bryan has a special bonus episode for you. He caught up with one of ESPN’s originals, Chris Berman, in New Orleans. They sit down and discuss the following: What Chris Berman’s Super Bowl week is like (2:12) When ESPN asked him to stop using nicknames (14:34) The original idea for ‘NFL Primetime’ (23:33) Turning down NBC (36:14) The three eras of ESPN (53:08) And then Bryan closes out the show with a fun lightning round where Berman talks about his favorite anchors to work with, getting a Super Bowl ring from the San Francisco 49ers, what he would have done if he wasn’t a sports anchor, and more (58:27). Host: Bryan Curtis Guest: Chris Berman Producer: Brian H. Waters Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The OffGar Podcast, Ringer NBA, and of course, check us out on Ringer NBA's YouTube channel. We're getting better. Media consumers and welcome to press box from the Super Bowl in New Orleans. Brian Curtis here, or should I say Brian in Winter Curtis, along with my producer, Brian Bridge Over Troubled Waters. Why am I giving you these puns? Because our guest today is ESPN's Chris Berman,

who's here in New Orleans covering his 43rd Super Bowl. I think back to my childhood, and there were two people on television who helped me learn to love pro football. They were Chris Berman and John Madden. It was the way Berman's show NFL Primetime tried to tell the whole story of a game that happened that day, instead of just showing us a few out-of-context scoring plays. With Berman, it was that uncaged joy he used to deliver a highlight, the way he would describe a touchdown from Brown's wide receiver Michael Jackson, and then Tom Jackson,

Berman's primetime co-host, would say, He-he! Berman started at ESPN in 1979, the network's very first year on the air. Primetime, a show he'll host from the field after Sunday Super Bowl, came along in 1987. Today we covered everything from ESPN's rise to just what kind of sportscaster Berman wanted to be.

He called himself, Chris, I'll never be your beast of Berman. But for simplicity's sake, Here's Boomer. All right, Chris, this is your 43rd Super Bowl. What's Chris Berman's Super Bowl week like? Am I that old? I, you know, I don't, okay, 43rd Super Bowl.

Well, different than it used to be, Brian, because the early days of ESPN and the middle days of ESPN and even up to about 15 years ago, we would be doing two shows a day starting Sunday, the week before the game. And so you're on TV 18, 20 times. You go to all the media days, you interview all the players that say you do your pieces and the stuff. So they were long, again, we're not in a coal mine.

Let's keep that of mind. By the time the game came, you were on 20, 22 times. And then we do the morning show. Well, went into the afternoon NFL game day turned an NFL count on. And then we do an NFL prime time, which we still do. So those weeks, I can't compare to the 80s and 90s. Plus, I was young. I could do it.

And in New Orleans, you better be young if you're going to get through it. 20 shows and then, well, we need the last show is over at midnight. We might as well have a beer. And then the next thing, you know, you're having one beer and it's 1.15. You know what I mean? So it's so. And then the interviews are at 8.30 in the morning. Again, we could be digging ditches.

So now we're different. I come. I've got media stuff to do. I enjoy it. I'm close with a couple of teams. Every known and then I get invited to practice. and which is a thrill. And personally, I just do the prime time show at night on the field after the game.

So I can't compare what I do now to then as far as workload. Fans are the fans. They're great. They're football fans. But no but no but. No, but no, no, but, no, the matter what city's in it. People at the Super Bowl know someone who's done football for a living. And so if I'm, you go thinking you're going to semi-hide, you're not.

But it's okay. It's all respect for these people weren't out there. I wouldn't have had a job. So, but at the end of the four or five days, it's, um, I've taken all the pictures. Again, I'm not Taylor Swift. I'm not, you know, mentioned a lot of other folks, but for football fans, you know, I'm, known and I respect who you are fan of

and sometimes it's not the teams that are here but I will say this we've just sat down I've just gotten here with you Wednesday the Philadelphia fans on Bourbon Street for five days will be an interesting case study

okay and I say that with respect uh huh yeah great respect I'm not going to be studying it at two in the morning either you'll hear reports I'm going to be asleep oh no we'll hear reports they'll be here reports they'll be

interesting. That's okay. They love their fly eagles fly. And Bourbon Street sounds like a good place for eagles fans. I read this amazing Chris Berman story. 1987 Super Bowl. It's Giants Broncos in the Rose Bowl. You watch the game. You run out to the ESPN truck or whatever setup you have. And you're supposed to

track, put your voice on, some highlights of the game. And you want to pick up what happens from there? Well, I hadn't thought of that in a while. I was doing that show the year before we started in full the year before we had the NFL so Ali Sherman the longtime New York Giants coach

was a friend of mine because his daughter went to Brown and I so we knew each other elsewhere and we had done shows at NFL films in the 80s so he was the analyst me coach Wyatt Till I mean he forgot more football than I'll ever know

we got there and then we realized there's no but the monitor did no return feed what we would call whoa and we're about to go on like in two minutes so it's well we're working on it but we're on in two minutes well how am I going to do the highlights if I can't see them I mean I know what happened America saw the game too you don't need me to tell you that you know Bill Sims did this and etc and

we're on and the cameras work the on camera we look hello Chris Berman Alley Sherman, blah, blah, blah. Well, let's roll the highlights. And then you're at the mercy. I'm doing it with no video return. But I paid attention to the game. I was young then. And I had a brain then.

And so I got my ear with Sims to McConkey. You know, both of the kinds. But, you know, you know, it's a 29-yard run. And then lay out and I figured, okay, until I heard something else that that play was still going and I remember the play and I did it. And somewhere at ESPN exists, Ali Sherman looking at me, how is he doing this?

You know, like how it's actually hilarious. I mean, it's amazing. You're doing highlights without highlights. As long as it didn't happen every day in my career, I was okay. It was a Super Bowl. I remembered the place,

but it was, I hadn't thought of that in a long time. That was, the SPM was still pretty primitive then, okay? Which is why we are where we are, at least us older, folks were veterans of the place we were we were used to oh battery ran out we don't have a battery

here for this interview or the tape the one tape we brought to the interview 14 players ran out like duh we were used to winging it and uh that was winging it i guess you could put that up there is something i did that was out of the ordinary yeah let me take you back to prehistory i did I did not know that your mother worked for Time Magazine. Is that what got you interested in the media business? No, but it's a good question. I tell you what it did get me interested in. Now, because she, folks were smart folks.

I really didn't do that. My mom was primarily a researcher for time, which worked out for 30 years. I found her job. She was the researcher for what they would call. Remember, Time Magazine at the time was, you had to get it. It was the thing, right?

Like Sports Illustrated, you had to get it. And even Life magazine. So I grew up with these three things in my house, six years old. Life had the pictures. But she was called the back of the book researcher, which meant bringing myself back to, you know, when I'm in junior high and high school,

if the lead cover story was part, transplant. The medicine, they would have a two-page medicine section or one or two. That's what they sport. By the way, not sports. It was sport. Singular. Singular. Okay. So that researcher would do that. But then there would be another story on medicine in the back. And then she would be the medicine researcher for one week. Well, this is not Google. This is not anything. 60s, 70s, well, 50s, I think she was letter answering. But you had to look,

she was the goalie. And if Time Magazine had facts wrong, heads rolled. But she was different every week. One, sometimes she would be sport. And Muhammad Ali's on the cover of making it up. Well, then they had some other article about some of them might have been a great pole,

Walter again. I don't know. She would become an extra. on that subject that week. And so what I learned, that was not to answer your question, I love sports, so I wanted to do this as a living if I was good enough, but I knew it was in my heart. But I learned from her, although she never gave me the speech.

Get your facts, right? We all make a mistake here and there, but get your facts, right? She's looking up heart, well, she's looking at medicine, and then the next week, cinema. I think that's probably, they didn't call them movies. It would be cinema or show or whatever, music. And then she's sport. I remember she called me at Brown once or twice. She was doing sport. It was stuff you couldn't look up. Do the Minnesota Vikings, Chris, have a very good defense. There's nothing you can look up there. Yes, mom, they do. And so she went with,

I felt I contributed to the magazine. You became the de facto fact check. Well, you can't check. They average giving up 8.2 points a game. You could look that up. Very good. We're going to look that up. And she did football.

I mean, and stats weren't prevalent like now anyway. So I felt I contributed a little bit. But I learned get your factor right. So I was. And then elections, they're election. Presidential election years or even the midterms too, all the national.

They would bring all of them in. And she would work pretty much. for four straight days, you know, and put the time I didn't even too bad. I was fascinated by her job. Not like I went in and saw her do it. I was pretty much still in grade school and then junior high and in high school and then college. And then she had enough. But elections, they still kept calling her back.

And so that was cool. Majored in American history. So I thought election is pretty cool. You start working at ESPN in 1979. You were 24 years old. What kind of anchor did you want to be in those days? good when to speak in complete sentences by the way not everybody does um i wanted to that's a good question because at 24 i thought if i could get on tv somewhere by 25 i'd be

ahead of the curve whatever that meant whatever could that curve was in 1979 i wish i'd save some of my hair. I had, you know, I looked like Ron Burgundy. I mean, we wore the jackets. And so,

you know, the mustache. I wanted to be someone who was able to tell a story of what I might have seen or read about. Because back then, hardly any of the games

were on TV, the Seattle Mariners playing the Kansas City Royals in 1979, 1980, 1981. You're reading a little wire story from the AP,

and that's what you got. We didn't have those games weren't on seven days a week. You, the viewer, are relying on me, the sportscaster, to tell you what happened in the game in an interesting way. But get your facts right. Now, I'm more upbeat and, you know, louder if that's the right word, but into it, at least visually and verbally, then someone like Bob Lee, you know, one of my best friends in ultimate respect. Bob would do it differently, but he was doing it like Bob Lee. I'm doing it like Chris Berman, not to be noted. I never did any stuff to be noted.

I was just, I did it not to be noted. I did it to be accurate and excited about it because I figured, actually this is thought about the answer to this. We should do this really. I wanted, I assumed I was talking to someone. When I look at a lens, I think of one person, nobody in particular, not male, female, white, black, old, young. How would I want that person to understand what I know? And they, I'm talking to me.

Tell me in 30 seconds what happened in the Mariners Royals game. Do it the best you can. It was really that simple. And we were doing sports for sports fans. It was not ratings. I don't have any of that stuff. We're cable. We hope cable TV even makes it.

So I think that would be the answer that I would like to be, somebody would leave our show and felt I got it. I read tomorrow's paper. That's a good way to put it. I think it's 1985 that someone at ESPN says, Hey, Berman, can you stop using the nicknames for the ballplayers? Is that the first creative struggle of any note at ESPN? I didn't have many.

But that's a good question. You've done your homework. My mother would be a very appreciative. Yeah, the guy was running sports center. Then was named Jack Galvan. Wasn't a bad guy. But I don't even know why he went this way. Early September, so baseball season is almost open.

And it's becoming a thing, my nicknames, which again started by accident when I used to the 2.30 in the morning show and a couple of them came out. you do to college and we came out and people laughed and I did some work. It wasn't going to get noted. I'm going to know who I am. I'm the nickname guy. No. You know, if you have a nickname, tell me you had a three run home.

At any rate, he decided that nickname should. It's not what we're about. Well, these things are movies, food, songs, sayings. Oh, to be Bigtown. Oh, to be young again. McDowell. Hello. What's wrong with that? Like, Bert Bihombley 11. Like every parent said it, every kid heard it. Okay. Be home, blah 11. I get it. Yeah, we're not whatever. So they were banned the last three weeks of the season. Now, if you were smart, you would have done it in the off

season. Maybe nobody even knew they were gone in April, but they weren't smart. So, I mean, I can't get on the air as a 30-year-old and, you know, earning salary. I didn't have any, wouldn't any big start. I can't get on the air and make a ruckus. I'm fired. So, all right, we had some funny ways of getting around it. If guys already had a nickname, meaning like Whitey Herzog, I called them Dorel Herzog for those three weeks, okay?

Chili Davis, Charles Theodore Davis. They had no idea I was doing this. Mookie Wilson was William B. Wilson. even Babe Ruth we were throwing to we had I don't know how we got it John Goodman but playing Babe Ruth right the babe

it was following a show I threw it to the George these guys didn't know I was doing this like okay so but again George Bratt helps him probably read that story but

friend of mine we were in your age of the players and it's back back then, totally different than now. I called him to wish him good luck in the play. If the Royals, that was the year they won the World Series, but they were in the playoffs again, and good luck. And he always loved the nicknames, always loved.

It was annoyed the Royals didn't have more. I said, George, you're already George Brett. I'm not calling you Wonder Bread or, you know, sliced bread. You're George Brett, you know. He didn't need a nickname. No, it was too late anyway. Like Johnny Bench was already Johnny Bench. You're not going there.

It's a new guy. Okay, fine. So I said, George, by the way, just so you know, not to make trouble. I said, just so you know, they, you know, they, you know, they, I can't do the nicknames anywhere. And he went ballistic on the phone. What? Fast forward to their playing Toronto in the ALCS, no DS.

D.S. George Grant is interviewing him. One of the great human beings of all time. And George Brett. the royals, especially later in his career. So this is the batting practice the day before the first game. And there's 50 people around, writer, some cameras in this. George Brett comes out to do his thing.

And George Grant goes, hey, George, how you do? George, you know, can we do? Yeah, of course. Guys, wait a minute. I'm going to do one here with George Grant. But wait a minute, unbeknownst to me. Before we get started. What the hell?

is going on at ESPN that my man Chris Berman cannot do nicknames and this would Rudy Mardsky the late Rudy Mardsky now late Rudy Mardsky I know

USA Today media columnists yes and unique and I like them but he picked up on it no one knew they were banned not an announcement that and then it got picked up everywhere

George Brett, you know, goes off on or whatever. And then they played a game the next day. They said, nobody cared. Well, they did. We got more hate mail, I'm told, by our PR staff than in 1985 than we ever got before. And then the bottom line was April came in 86. Nicknames were back. He was gone.

Again, I don't take any pleasure in somebody. I mean, that wasn't why. But there's a song about it. I fought the law and the law one. Okay. I think Buddy Holly wrote that. I only found that out recently, but Bobby Fuller, four. I get no pleasure out of it.

It wasn't the point, but... And they became a thing. And I could call Whitey Herzog, Whitey Herzog. You're calling that again. Yeah. It's an interesting crossroads moment for ESPN, because you're not going to be network news necessarily. The house style interpreted different.

by different people, but can be different from something that people hear elsewhere on television. Fair? Yeah. Because of sports. There are some serious stories every now and then, obviously. We were this week playing crash. Figure skaters, not to mention those who aren't figure skaters, God rest their soul. So you do those.

I mean, you don't not do those, obviously, but most of it is not there to be entertained. in the way of, okay, give me a circus, but you're there to take your mind off whatever you were doing and you're a sports fan. So if we're doing sports, we don't have to be, we're not trying to be the greatest of all time, Walter Cronk I do in the news, right?

I mean, again, I'm dating myself, but we're picked a more modern, you know, anchor, picking Peter Jennings, not modern, but since Cronkney, we could go on. We're not trying to do that. We're just trying to have you stay with us for him, an hour we do the show and if you stay with us for half an hour we must be doing a good job they got a half an hour of news and night for the whole world we had a half an hour of sports

hell well this is like this is fantasy and um so yeah network yeah no we're and we're we're sped we're still we're like even in the mid 80s we were still your heroes your you're your little cult heroes or he didn't watch us cable Some cities at 85 didn't get it yet. There were still political. I think Chicago was late. Like, there was still political, like, really? You know, cable in the mid-80s wasn't everywhere yet.

There's more rural. And we became a grassroots cult. It became your personal station. People had a relationship. They felt like they knew you. Me or they knew us. Not so much me, us. In a way they did.

didn't know like a network news division. Correct, because, you know, we're a little, I mean, we weren't the most polished. I mean, we get better every year. And again, it was sports. A lot of it, the game just ended, and here's a highlight, and it ran backwards. Have some fun with it. Good luck with it. We started at the end and we went to the beginning for 10 seconds before it ran the ride.

But believe me, I can give you a lot. Not like a whole highlight of the Super Bowl without a monitor. But you can imagine that in Sports Center, and we were, I mean, we just go with it. We were just normal. And people kept looking for us. Something happened in sports, they knew we'd have it. It was a nice way to be.

It really was. NFL primetime started in 1987. What was the original idea for primetime? I give Steve Bornstein, who was not our president yet, but became in the 90s, 10 years, or 11 or 9 or whatever the number is, He was the head of programming, but way up. And so we got a deal. Pete Roselle, one of the smartest gentleman I've ever met,

thought it would be okay if we brought ESPN. Oh, my God, it's not a broadcast network into the fold. Now, what our deal was in 1987 to 89, I think probably a three-year deal, was Sunday night football after the World Series was over, began about Halloween. And so eight games. And if New York was playing New England, they would be on regular TV in New York and Boston in addition so that if you lived there, you weren't.

Because, you know, people, what do you mean? This is not for everybody anymore. You can't get it. Well, yeah, you can. And in that deal, Steve Bornstein and Pete Roselle, Steve Bornstein thought up an idea to, we would like to do a show since only three games are on per market. through New York, you never saw Seattle at Arizona, even if it was 45, 42. It was the greatest game of all time. You didn't see it.

We'd like to do a show for an hour with a rights to do unlimited. We got to have a commercial in there every now and then, but we could do everything else. Highlight, unlimited, unheard of. P. Roselle saw that that was a great idea. And I wasn't there. So I don't know that this really happened. I kind of know. And eventually, after Pete, part of the deal, small part of our big deal, put us on the map.

We were, ESPN was here to stay and we made that deal. And so he told Pete in kind of these words, because I was told later, this show, we're going to throw the ball. And I got the guy to throw it. And that was me. And so I wasn't the only one on that show. I mean, we, Tommy Jackson, just retired for 14 years in that Super Bowl, which was his last game. There you go, 87 super. You see, everything is cyclical.

And, or comes full circle. And we had Pete Axelma on an essay in the day. But it was the idea. I had nothing to do with it, but he thought that if they could get the rights for the show, I'd be the guy. And professionally, you know. the word important for sports is fair. I don't know that it really is. It was the most important show

all my career. It still is. The fact that I can still do it is why I still am working. I mean, it's fun. It's fun to do. Fun to deliver. Fun to hear about later on.

So I thank Pete Roselle and Steve Bornstein for that opportunity. Most important show for you because it was the best canvas for you to work on? As it turned out, yeah. Matt, pretty good at highlights, I guess, you know, and I do them like the game is live. If he's going to score a touchdown at the 25, if I'm just starting to crank up, he could go all the way.

I don't say he's going all the way yet. I think a lot of people make mistakes doing that. Like, just let me see it. Don't assume I saw the game already. Still to this day, you can do it that way. Wait a second. Stop right now. That's fascinating.

So he could go all the way. You're preserving. And he's not. All the way is. about that the fire of the goal line with nobody behind him. In the viewer's mind that he might get tackled, you don't know what's going to happen. I've done that before.

He could go out. Tackled. So, these are the small things. Do it like it's live. Same with, like he, if it's baseball, different, obviously not in prime time. And he's going to hit a double off the wall.

No, let it hit the wall first. And it's a double off the wall. Do it like it's live. It's not that hard. I mean, wait. Let him see. words and pictures. One plus one equals three.

But at any rate, canvas, which is a really well way to phrase that, it turned out to be my best canvas. And I know something about football. I don't know football compared to, you know, coaches and GMs and quarterback. I mean,

they forgot more football than I'll ever know. But I know enough. And I've been around long enough. And I had Tommy with me to, to put players' perspective into words without going for three minutes on exactly how the three, four defense work, which those Broncos were great at, I might add. And it was our directors and producers doing that show, which is actually interesting,

going back to the guys who used to do live games or maybe they would do it on a Wednesday. This is the only studio show that reminds me of doing a live game. The games would end while we're on, and we were pretty primitive with some of the highlights, and they'd come flying in it. It was 7.30 to 8.30 Eastern flying it at 8.15 with a piece of paper and the tape would go in the tape room. And here's the 49ers are playing the Rams. I didn't see half of this stuff. I mean, the game is on, but you're not. And so the director is rolling it.

And I hope the time, three minutes and 22 seconds is correct. And I told the director in the early days of Jeff Wynn and the early days of prime time. Jeff, let's keep the puck in front of us, okay? And then, like, we had one segment that was off the rails. I remember two tapes didn't roll or I screwed or the wrong page. It could be anything. And we threw it a commercial.

calmly in my ear, I got. I think they got one by us, you know. It's fun. It's still fun. It's still, that'd be on my professional tombstone. He did NFL prime time. He was a good show. still and ratings changed so all these ratings from another time will never be broken because now

8,000 channels right back then there weren't two but there weren't maybe there were 100 or so it's the highest rated sports studio show of all time on cable that record will never be broken numbers would mean nothing to you the early 2000s we got on the live show in the fives. Sunday night baseball, I don't think we get a one. But again, I'm comparing apples and oranges now. But then the midnight rear, which was nine o'clock in San Francisco, got a two and a half.

And the 3 a.m. December, weather bad, the 3 a.m. midnight west coast, get a one. So we got a combined eight something on, like on December 7th, you know. And I kind of like that. We said a record, you know. It's not quite the record of, in sports. But it's a record and cool. I always think to come back to a studio show again and again.

Viewers have to like the highlights and like the analysis, but they also have to really like the relationship between the announcers. What was it about your relationship with Tom Jackson, do you think, that popped out on the screen? That we were really good friends. And I had never met him when he played. You would think I would have, but I didn't. And very early on, because I have an answer early,

and then in retrospect, one I'll add to it, that he told me very early on, boom. I don't even know if I was a boomer yet to him, but, you know, I listen to the same music, to listen to growing up and you listen to the same listen music i did growing up the fact that it was white black player ivy leaguer no bearing that was real quick that it had no bearing you well tom you love football you're great at it still among the highest played games of denver like 190 something for as a bronco i grew up watching joan ameth in the afl at shay state you're

stadium in the upper deck, season tickets. We went to all of them. Doesn't make me an expert, but I watched it. And we connected. Here's how I knew I love this guy. The first Sunday, September, whatever, whenever the season started in 1987, we're watching a game in about a half hour in,

somebody made a hard hit. And Tommy looked up and went, wow, look at that hit. I said, wait a minute at Tom. That's what you did. Like, you, you did that. I know, but that's just a great hit. I said, okay, this is going to work. Minutes before, we even did the first show.

We talk every week or two. We texted today, for example, we remain great friends. I know his kids. I went to his wedding, Jen. Kathy and I had already been married. He came over and read, you know, A couple of nights, you know, dinosaur book to our kids when they were four or five.

He came to my wife's funeral. So we know, I mean, we remain, we completed each other's sentences. Later on, I started with white, black, but I'll go back to it. Later on, I realized, not 30 years later, but why did we work? I never looked at it.

Here's a white guy and a black guy. here's a here's a you know uh grew up in cleveland grew up in the winglet none of that matter we were comfortable to everybody because we're great friends and we had routines that he enjoyed being part of you know the michael jackson would catch a ball for the cleveland browns you catch michael jackson i'd lay out and he'd go he you know that would be tommy's thing One of my absolute favorite moments. Every time that happened, I smiled. Well, and he would sing Lido Shuffle with me

when Lido Shepard would return a, you know, Lido. Oh, Warren Moon. Still to the stay through the prettiest pass, okay? The prettiest pass. And he would sing along, I would go, I'm being followed by Moon's Shadow. When I lay out, he'd go, Moon's Shadow, Moon's Shadow. Like, this is football, but it's sports.

It worked because we weren't trying to be. I think people knew that. We weren't, ooh, you guys are trying to be, you know, the Tonight Show hosts. No, I'm trying to do football. I happen to like music, so did he. I mean, we won one that actually, you'll laugh at and I'll move on. Chris Fulmatu Mahfala was a running back for Pittsburgh, a couple of them. And I called him,

bad mafala okay but but we had a a a really shaft we went to the shaft and we and I forget how we did it because I haven't thought of this in a long time Chris will matto maifala and then Tommy would go

shut your mouth and I would go but I'm talking about myel fella and he'd go can you dig it can you dig it you know so I mean this was just stuff worked Look, not all of our paintings were Rembrandt's. Okay. Some of them were finger paints.

But we sold them. 2.95. Not only. Here's another moment. 1989, so two years after primetime debuts, NBC comes to you and says, Chris, leave cable, come to the networks, come to what was then the big leagues of television. How would your career have been different?

if you said yes and gone to NBC. Think about it every now and then. It's a great question. What happened was it turned out to be a big thing for our company, which was not the point of it. They pursued me. Dick Ebersoll come, well, became, I can call them now,

great friends. And they didn't, you know, They had the NFL, obviously, but Bob Kossis was hosting the show at that point. Bryant did a couple years, but at that point, he wasn't going to do it that much longer, I was told, but I was doing it in our place. Admittedly, not an NBC. What else would I do? You know, well, we have the Olympics and this and the stuff. It's NBC.

And I trust the Dick is, and that was a correct reading. Great. and visionary too. And they offered about times four. Okay. At the time, I was saying that I was making pretty good money. Now,

I've been 10 years in, probably 160,000 a year. I mean, I'm not, by the way, I could live on it, two young kids. Less work if you really realize the network is just the weekend, although you fly somewhere you go,

then Tuesday you're not on TV. That's part of what became part of the problem. You're not on TV. There was times four. So you can't not look at that. It wasn't in it to make the money. I never got in it to, I can make a really good living.

No, I can make a good enough living that if I do sports in Providence, Rhode Island, I'm fine. So I really was negotiating with Steve, Bornstein. So at that point was, number two, was president, 809.

Roger Warner. Maybe Steve was president or number two, but he would have handled that. Roger might have been still. And Steve, I went to Brown, I can add, what do you want me to do with this?

And, you know, they weren't ready to make that kind of, I mean, in every department, it was, if you have a big offer, you got to go take it. And you're not going to get times four. Staying here anytime soon.

So eventually this took about five or six months. And I said to him, he's not a golfer. He said, you got to get to within a nine iron. I don't even know what that means. Like, it's not a number. And I said, I got one other thing to tell you. And I don't want to put myself as more. I really haven't answered your question yet,

but I'm just giving you a background. So I want to tell you one other thing that you need to know. The whole company is watching this one. And I didn't think that wasn't to scare them. That was, they were. Because you work with everyone. We knew everyone on camera. We knew everybody.

There was still family. And he goes, I didn't, oh, I don't think of it that way. And we figured it out within a couple. They didn't match. They didn't have to. How would my life have been different? Certainly wouldn't be working there in 2025. That's no comment on NBC.

I mean, that's just wouldn't be the way it would work. Would my bank account the next 10 years be better? I guess, although not 10 years, not the way things worked out. We became a different, I don't think, I don't know if I'm beloved. That's not the right, not for me to say. I don't think I would have the respect walking down the street here in New Orleans in 2025 that I would then. And I like that.

means a lot to me because people, whoever they are, when they see us earn it, I don't mean the money. I mean earn it. There's respect there. Then you get to this. And of course, Don Henley was right. Kick him when they're up, kick him when they're down. And that's fine.

I've taken plenty of my shots. Although now it's kind of nice. I like this semi-retirement thing. But how would my life have been different? I don't think it would have been as real. But I wouldn't have been fake on TV. I don't know what I mean by that. But if you're on every day, they know you.

And we got to cover every sport. If we didn't have, we don't have a Super Bowl. If I'm at NBC, we have it once every three years. You're not doing it the other two years. Well, we do it. And we cover the World Series. We cover all these things that Stanley Cup. I like all of them.

I wouldn't necessarily be the guy, the only guy out there, but I'm doing a show. and I'm also reporting on game two of the Eastern Conference semifinals in the NHL. I like that. Wouldn't be doing it there. You wouldn't be all sports. And I would have missed it. I would have missed it.

And the best move I never made. I've asked this to other TV people. When you're on the desk, waiting for the red light to go on, do you ever experience a kind of physical sensation? usually about the last one to get to the desk okay i wrote my term papers late at brown uh nothing's changed um i mean real late and i majored in history those are 40 page papers you don't just slap one out okay so it's an it these are good questions so i'm usually late well not to the whole show although i have stories he said I could tell you to that I've started primetime and looked into the camera Tommy laughing going

Tommy people only knew you know I didn't even have the mic hooked up yet I'm holding it like this etc so um he's losing it and um but there's some days you're about a minute or two away but there's always something going on so it's not like sitting there old day get ready to do network news like what some most everyone's there a lot earlier than me I'm different So I made producers and directors to get gray hair, but that's the way it goes. Again, I'm quoting music, but this is true. I think of it to this day.

Some days you don't feel great. You like a pitcher leaving the bullpen. I don't know my best stuff in here today. Might be sick. Kids might have been up at night. For whatever reason, this first story, I'm not quite. And I think of Jackson Brown. And I think of because it ties into the red light and stay in the loadout.

When you see those lights and you hear the crowd, you remember why you came. You're on TV in 10 seconds. Somebody's expecting you to do a good job. They don't know you don't have it. Don't fake it. Maybe don't inflect as much tonight because I don't have a voice for whatever reason. I can still do it, but don't do my head. Maybe tonight, you know, we throw a few more curb balls.

Don't go on the fastball. They're going to hit it out of the park tonight. But there are people out there. They're counting on you. They've tuned in 7.30 for prime time or a sports center or whatever. Expecting you to give them, give me the sports. You always do. So I don't have a seminal moment, but I think of that, okay, you're on.

Let's go. time to play ball. That's a little athlete. I didn't get past high school sports, so I don't know how good an athlete. But, you know, we're competitors too, but that's not the right word. It's just fun.

Just give it to them the best you can, even if you don't have your fastball. The end of the show, they probably won't know that, unless you really screw up, which I've done many times. And as I used to say, before the world of you could record everything and it's on YouTube and this and that,

if you screwed up because all my analysts still, Steve Young, Harold, all the guys like from 20, 25 years ago, and Tommy will say, they all ask me, what happens if we make a big mistake? It's on its way to Pluto. Don't worry about it. No one will ever see this again. It's ruling, it's refueling on Neptune right now.

And if it was really bad, it's refueling on Uranus. So get over it. Only those weirdos with VCRs will ever know that this happens. And VCR, nobody's recruit. Yeah. And it's not, oh, you see the stupid thing he said, it's gone. Keep going. Keep talking.

Talk about baseball. Talk about football. It's okay. Bill, you said it. It's okay. We all misspeak. Live TV. Have fun with it.

Or keep going. Don't act. No. Have fun with it. It's okay. Robin Roberts had a good line in 1993. She was doing prime time with you. the other anchor chair. Just saw Robin last week for the first time in a long time at a wedding.

Such a good time. Just in aside. She comes in and you looked a little off that day. Just something, something a little bit off. She said, Chris, what's wrong? And your answer was, it's the pressure of being me. This is 1999. Let's give me a sense. What kind of pressures are you feeling day to day at ESPN in that era? Because Robin, well, I think that's also about the time that I would I told her, I wish I was kind of where you are right now. I mean, we didn't know that she was going to become, leave me, Robin Roberts and leave me in the dust, although that's not the point.

Her first show ever was with me. I know that. First sports center ever. I should answer the question, but here's an interesting one. I introduced her as, I said, not often you get to do a sports center with the Hall of Famer. Robin Roberts, the pitcher, the Philadelphia Phillies in the Hall of Fame. I told this to her just this last week, and again, I hadn't seen her in years, I said, the Swami was right, wasn't he?

You're a hallfamer. I was being funny. You know, here's a new person. Once again, I brought them all in. So pressure being me, I don't completely remember, but she and I would talk about fame some. I said, you're kind of way up. People know you're good.

Well, you're not, you know, I guess I felt I was the quarterback. Now, there were many quarterbacks at our network, but I was the lead dog then. and there comes a pressure with it. I don't know what prompted me to say at that night. I wish I had the answer because I don't know. But I would say that not be funny tonight.

I never worried about that. But, you know, maybe you start to hear, I wish I had this specific. This is a really good question. But I maybe I don't have my fastball tonight. And tonight I'm not sure how I'm going to get the batters out. I mean to go back to what we said. I don't mean to make everything a metaphor.

I don't really mean to do that. But I didn't feel pressure of carrying the way to the network. We're doing so many things. I didn't. That was never my role anyway. I mean, I did what I did, but everybody else did what they did. Maybe I, oh, 93. So maybe I had just signed.

That was it. Steve and I signed eight years in 93. This is like one of the first big, big contracts, 93 to 2001. The first one of the first one of the first one of the first. the next century we're proud of that because nobody signed more than four or five year deals as a matter of fact borenstein and i i annoyed him when we were you have an agent that does the legal and he's great but we did that one and not very long we were um but he um he i had two years left on the one and that from mbc so that was five years and he and he he was five years and he and he

wanted to give me, you know, so that took us to 95, wanted to give me five more years. So, you know, he had two years left. There's another five. And I said, Steve, for 10 seconds, his face got, and I wouldn't mean to tweak him either. He said, Steve, we can do better than that. And he almost got out of his chair, because this is money in the ESPN, again, compared to what any of them making now, I mean, I was the one that showed him who was okay, the network wouldn't go out of business if you paid somebody a little more than you really wanted to. And I'm kind of proud of that too. I mean, I'd laugh. No, I said, listen, I was the one that went through the, John Madden or Billy Martin to the light beer through the,

you know, I was the one that I busted the thing open, but not really. In retrospect, those dollars aren't what it is now. And he got annoyed anyway. What do you mean? I said, because if we go one more year, it could be 2001, a space auditors. and it's one of my favorite PR pictures. Derek will have to go back and find it. The press release when it was announced, like planets behind me. We made the first no network news guy in 93 had signed to,

or a woman had signed to the next century. We were the first ones. We're kind of proud of that. I can still see Saturn behind me in this press release. See, we were still having a good time. Yeah. It wasn't. Everybody relaxed, you know.

We got Saturn in the press release. Something charmingly goofy about that. Yes. I couldn't believe, actually, I think Mike Saltus probably came up with that there. And yeah, let's go with it. It wasn't my, I mean, Saturday. Okay. And the moon.

It's funny, right? You're laughing. You never knew that story. That's funny. Steve sat down. He was fine. Ten seconds of rage. So I'm telling you, he'd be it.

He remains a great friend. You know, that's when I, you know, in the 90s, you know, Steve won't overstate what I was. I shouldn't. It sounds like I'm, don't smoke up my own barrier, which I'm not. But he was the Bartolo and I was in Montana. We took that seriously. But maybe at times in 93, I was, hmm, I don't know if I'm going to complete the passes today. You know?

And so, Joe Robin helped me good. get through the show because she was a future Hall of Fame. I want to ask you about how ESPN's changed too. Because you talk about the 80s, the cult heroes era. You know, your cool friends know about this, but not everybody knows about this. Then ESPN gets really big.

And it's a Gatorade flavor and it's a sports bar and it's everything else. So it's this big monolith of an ESPN. I think there's a third era of ESPN after that? Is there, did it change in your eyes? Well, part of it was

because in 89 we had plenty of employees. In 95 we had plenty of employees. But it would have been impossible for any place because they wouldn't have started like this. We all saw each other get married and kids and have tragedies and saw each other earn it. And even if even in the 2000s. So it would have been impossible. This is not a commentary on, well, where did we go, quote, wrong? We didn't go wrong. Impossible. There are departments and this and that.

I used to know almost everybody. I thought that going way back. Of course, I used to be there every day. But it would have been impossible to stay the same. It's not a Disney comment because, my God, they've given us so much more than probably we ever. I mean, when Michael Eisner, you know, said, this is one of the big. reasons we're buying ABCs because we get ESPN. I mean, that's going way back. So as everything escalated money-wise, now I'm getting out of the family and the togetherness,

because there's no way I would know the people working in New York, the people are working in Brazil, the people working. I mean, so life has become less person, right? I mean, Zoom, this, that. And then I might knock Zoom, email, this, that, this, that, this, that. Writing a letter. Life's less personal. So part of it was just going along with this is the way it is, but we didn't have in-person meeting, this and that. So you didn't know the people who were your fellow working, maybe working twice as hard as we were in the programming department and the sale department. in the, certainly the technical department.

We can go in the PR department. We can go on and on and on. So the third phase would be life and the TV business changed. It wasn't, ooh, Disney. Now they, you know, were much more corporate than when they first had us for 10, 12 years. I wouldn't be the one really to answer that anyway. I'm glad I never.

George Bodenheimer was president. It remains one of the great human beings. and remains a great friend, obviously. He never said it, and I don't think we've ever discussed it. He made sure whatever corporate, not battles, but things he had to balance as a major asset of the Walt Disney company, he was able while he was there. We didn't know about it, really.

It's not for us to tell you how to run our business. This is not, you know, it's not the way of work. but nor would I want to. I would never want to sign somebody's check. It's your job, George. So I think, Brian, I think he kept it. So we could still be kind of us, even though he was, I want to say he's fighting battles.

It's not for me to say. But he was, the core business was changing. But I don't know how much longer anybody could have held that off, at least to us. So the last 15, 20 years, I think it's an evolution that was mostly inevitable, like by society, mostly inevitable by business, mostly inevitable. Broadcast rights, you're paying, you know, to this, that skyrocketed.

So who are we to say, well, we're not Mon Pondy more? Well, no, we can't be, or else we won't be successful. But I feel for the young ones, 20s, 30s, 40s that didn't have the same experience we did, although they're making more money than we did. I mean, I'm not talking about it. I mean, I guess. That's not about it. They're still getting married, having kids.

They're hopeful and hoping to, you know, move forward in their job and maybe stay here and maybe go somewhere else. We're, I still smile every time I drive there. I really do. Then again, I have lots of memories. Although I don't every day drive in going down memory land. So the third phase of ESPN, it's just, it was inevitable most, it. And I think we've had leaders that have bent the river as well as they could keep

what we've had. But I think in the end, it would have been impossible. What would I have done differently? I wouldn't want that job. So I like my job. I got some quick lightning round questions here for you. Okay. Oh, this is fun. You know what? You got me. I haven't even even wash my face yet. So it's like I'm a little verbose. So you're going to have to be a little verbose. So you're going to have a hell of an editing job. Oh, my gosh. Hopefully you're enjoying. You're learning something here, aren't you?

Favorite analyst to work with at ESPN? Well, Tom Jackson. Easy one. Oh, God, yes. Favorite anchor to host with at ESP? Tom Euse and John Saunders. Both, unfortunately, have passed away. True or falsely, San Francisco 49ers once gave you a Super Bowl ring.

True. You ever wear it? No. Is it a box? Where is it? You got it in a box. Do you ever look at it? It's every couple of years.

Eddie De Bartlow and I were very friendly. The reason I got that ring from him, Eddie gave rings a lot of his friends, I guess. There are six and five and 88, not the 84th season that went 15 and 1, not the 89 season. They went 14 and 2, and they killed Denver here in New Orleans in the Super Bowl,

55 to 10. And for whatever reason, went out to Youngstown and interviewed him in his office about stuff. league stuff, Niners stuff. They were six in time. Said, Eddie,

you're going to win the Super Bowl. Get out of here. I said, no, you're going to win the Super Bowl. Nobody's great this year. I can see it. No, come on. I don't think they lost again. They might have lost one.

They won the Super Bowl. That was the Montana to Taylor at the end. Five months later, I got a call from his office. He said to borrow a question for you. Yeah, does he need me on the fun? No. What's your ring?

For what? He wants to know, wants to give you a present. Oh, okay? I don't know. I know what it was when I got married. I haven't sized myself. I put on a few since then. Since 1983.

Oh. And so that's the Genesis. I mean, really a friendship. But you were, the Swami correctly predicted that the 49ers were winning. That's six and five. Hence the Swami got a ring when they did, in fact.

Well, I was, you know, I convinced the owner and he said, you're wrong. Okay, Eddie. And then I was right. You mentioned you were history major. If you hadn't become a sportscaster, what job would you have done? Hmm. I don't think teaching history. Hmm.

Hmm. Well, the funny answer is, which I've given a couple times before. Funny answer. is to drive but own the beverage cart concession at Pebble Beach. I mean, I own it too. So it's not just, okay, you're making minimum wage. Maybe they tip me. You know, I'm not as a good looking woman.

So I may not get the tip that they would making a bloody merry. But that's been in print a couple of golf things. So seriously, that's a great question. Because my dad wants to ask me, you know, just in case, you want to go to, only ones, never push. Great guy. You want to go to business school just in case this sports casting thing doesn't work? No, I want to take it to see, I want to see, if it doesn't, I'll figure something else out.

It would be great at it then. So I don't know because I follow it. I'm one of 15% of the people that does what they love or in the field that they love. I'd like to think there's more, but probably not in the field that they love. Individual job may not be exactly what you want. So I don't know. This is good. I mean, I'm going to have to start thinking about this stuff if I make it to 50 years.

You're going to have to have answers for these. All right. I got a last one for you. In your final broadcast, whenever that may be, what are the last words you want to say on television? I'd like to think I'd have something pithy, but it would be more serious than that, you know, it's another song,

something. Those that have seen me maybe for, let's say it's 50 years. Which I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I'm going to make that. But not a goal,

but now all of a sudden it's, it's down the street. Been here 45. Ooh, I never thought about 50. So I'd like to thank all the people that allowed me in their homes, whether it's over 50 years,

or 45 years, let's say it's tomorrow, or just this week, because it was a privilege to sit with you in your home and talk sports with you. Hope you understand that's the way I have approached it. Without you, I wouldn't have had a job. So we probably wouldn't have been a network. I assume my last broadcast will be to SPN.

At this point, it's a good, bet. So whenever that is, I don't know when that's going to be. I mean, I'm not doing this forever. I'm not holding on to. I still like doing it. I think people like me doing it. If they don't know, I'll hear about it or they'll hear about it. That's a good question. The only aside, lightning around, I break all the rules. Ask my producers, oh my God, he's got to do this in one minute. It'll never happen. So, um, my friend's, first job was a disc jockey in westerly rhode island among other things you know small radio i think you're under 125 bucks a week as a matter of fact that is exactly what i earned i couldn't

tell you what i make now but i believe me it's not a number that you think i mean the thumbs i retired they were they underpaid me for 20 years they overpaid me for 20 years and now we're kind of in the middle so um i signed off in westerly rhode island w e r i westerly rhode island a little beach town I played the last I said it's been great people have welcomed me something like that and I played Tucson

played Rocket Man and I played Take It to the Limit one more time I don't know that that many people would know those well you didn't know them but I wouldn't quote them now but that's what I did in 1978

Juneish to get a big job at radio in Waterbury, Connecticut, $150 a week, but not working 60 hours, working 45. So I play those two songs. I let that speak for myself. But I would say what I've said. I'm grateful that you let me in your home. Not sure why you did.

But you open the door, not me. So I would think of something to lighten it, not be so heavy and tear up like you asked me that question. Chris Berman, thanks for coming on the press box. This was this. This is, I got to start listening to this, my man. This is, this is good. Okay, before we go, I want to mention a couple of sources that were really helpful to me as I researched this interview and that a really good reading if you want to know more about Berman and ESPN.

One is Mike Freeman's book, ESPN, the uncensored history, highly recommended. Of course, there's also the oral history. Those guys have all the fun by James Andrew Miller and Tom Shales, which is and always will be the reference book for everything about ESPN. I also enjoyed going back and looking up a 1990 Sports Illustrated profile of Berman by Franz Lids, which was titled Yabadabadu. It's a really good picture of Berman in his early ESPN glory that you can find with one Google search. All right, I'm Brian Curtis.

But I did magic by Brom. Ryan Waters. Coming up, more from New Orleans. I cannot wake to talk to Joel Anderson on Thursday. We also have a special guest who's not on Radio Row. CNN anchor Casey Hunt is going to be on to talk about her favorite team, the Philadelphia Eagles, and just what America faces if the Eagles win another Super Bowl. Be warned, my fellow citizens. Plus, you know, there'll be more lukewarm takes about the media. Talk to you tomorrow.