The Press Box - Chris Hemsworth and Matt Damon's Friendship Down Under, the Tatum-Dewan Breakup, and the Nxivm Scandal | Jam Session (Ep. 450)

Episode Date: April 4, 2018

The Ringer's Juliet Litman and Amanda Dobbins discuss actress Allison Mack's reported involvement in the alleged sex cult called Nxivm (1:38), Channing Tatum and Jenna Dewan's breakup (12:48), Chris Hemsworth and Matt Damon's budding friendship (21:43), and the possible bad blood between Taylor Swift and Karlie Kloss (28:06). You can find the official Ringer web store here: http://bit.ly/ringershop More from The Ringer: The Leonardo DiCaprio Baseball Cap Bracket Check out other podcasts from The Ringer Podcast Network On NXIVM: Here Comes The Legal Protection - Blind Gossip How ‘Smallville’ Actress Allison Mack Became a Women-Branding Cult Leader - The Daily Beast Inside a Secretive Group Where Women Are Branded - The New York Times On the Channing Tatum/Jenna Dewan breakup All the Gossip About Channing Tatum and Jenna Dewan’s Divorce - The Cut Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's almost time for jam session, right Amanda? Right. But first, there's some important work on Theringer.com that we need you to know about. And that is the final bracket that you'll need to read this bracket season is from Andrew Grodot. It may be also the only bracket that you read this season and that's okay. You don't have to be a sports fan to appreciate the definitive Leonardo DiCaprio baseball hat bracket. Andrew did a lot of research and he made a bracket of Leo wearing 64 different hats and he determined to winner with extremely detailed photo research.

And analysis. I just have to say I learned a lot about baseball hats while editing this piece. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It's a masterwork and I recommend that you check it out. Check it out. Ringer.com, Andrew Gidarro on Leonardo DiCaprio wearing baseball hats. Leonardo DiCaprio wearing baseball caps.

Wow. Yes. Shout out to Kate Nibbs. She's the one who realized that. Some wordplay. Check it out. And now let's get into Jam Session. Welcome to Jam Session.

I'm Juliette Lippman. I'm Amanda Dobbins. A lot to cover. A lot's happened in the last two weeks. Yes. We're going to talk about, of course, the breakup of Channing Tatum and Jenna Dewan. We have insights. We have insights.

We're going to talk about a new relationship, the new best friendship of Chris Hemsworth and Matt Damon, and also the state of Taylor Swift and Carly Clause. And I also have a personal reveal that I'd like to share with you later, Amanda. This is great. I don't know what it is. Total surprise. I think I'm building it up a little too much, but it's just something that I've been thinking about a lot and wanted to get your take on. A jam session surprise.

I'm excited. Yeah. But first, also a surprise and also really not funny, but so shocking that my initial reaction is like towards levity. We are going to talk about the nexium sex cult that has come to the fore in recent weeks. It's an extremely bizarre story. Yes. That disbelief and kind of trying to process the more peculiar elements are the prevailing emotions. Yes.

And I will say, like, if at any point I do laugh, it's simply because I'm uncomfortable or shocked, not because I find any of this funny. It's hard to wrap your mind around. Yes. So let's just start for the beginning. There's a cult. It's called nexium. Actually, let's not say it's a cult, although it is. It's like an organization based in Albany, New York, spelled N-X-I-V-M, and it's pronounced nexium.

And it has a Wikipedia page, and could I just read the Wikipedia description of this? I would love for you, too. This is literally, looking at Wikipedia, which is a website I love, Nexium is a multi-level marketing organization that offers personal and professional development seminars. That's sentence one. Here's sentence two. Based in Albany County, New York, Nexium was founded in 1998 by Keith Rainier. News reports and former members have referred to Nexium as a cult.

So a multi-level marketing organization, which just frankly, that is a, suspicious term all its own. Yeah. If you're asking me. But the basic gist of this seems to be that Keith Reneer is a man who started some sort of self-help program shell company. Sure. And then within that company or within those teaching seminars or kind of the message that he

is sending out to the world, managed to institute something that sure looks like a cult. Yes. Revolving around sexual practices. And then within that, there was a secret sorority within the cult-like organization that was headed up by Allison Mack from Smallville. So this is all. That is multi-layered. Yes. Not a lot of marketing, though.

And this is all still rumored. Keith Renier was arrested last week, I believe, in Mexico. Yes. And charged with sex trafficking. Allison Mack has been identified by former members. and there are a lot of rumors swirling around it. But you and I had been following this story a bit on blind gossip. Yes, it's been on blind gossip for quite a while.

Yeah. Most of the story, and the reason it was there is because of Allison Mack's involvement because they cover celebrities. Right. And she is, Chesama is a celebrity. I actually have never seen Smallville myself. I think I caught a couple episodes. The one WB show I skipped.

I don't do superheroes. Anyway. I'd certainly gotten a lot of national prominence in the past week between the arrests. in her involvement. Yeah. And so blind gossip doesn't say this explicitly, but they imply that there could be some legal action coming against her soon.

And if you go back and you look at some of their old posts that's like referring to a cult, it seems like they're about nexium. Yes. And certainly all of the guesses are about Allison Mack or many of them. The thing that's so crazy about this is that it's been going on a long time and there's been articles about it for years.

Vanity Fair, Vanity Fair, UK, wrote a long feature about the involvement of two of the Seagram heiresses, Claire and Sarah Bromfman, who are kids of Edgar Bronfen, Sr., who started the former Seagram's chairman, billionaire philanthropist, and they are half-sisters of Edgar Jr., who's chairman of Warner Music Group, and the father of Hannah Bromfman, who's been discussed on this very podcast. And they gave, they like emptied their trust funds allegedly and gave like $100 million to basically to finance many of Keith Rainier's pursuits, most of like real estate purchases and just like other like extravagant expenses that he encountered as part of this organization. Yes. And the reason their involvement kind of came to light was because they got extorted in 2010, basically.

This was after arranging a trip by the Dalai Lama to Albany. Yes. In order to speak at one of the organization's events. And apparently people knew that it was like that they were like in this secret organization, but no one really knew it would happen. So per Vanity Fair, their father, Edgar Sr., like is the one who intervened because he was so worried about them and about the money. So this all happens in 2010. Yes.

But Nexium keeps going. Yes. And apparently within it a sorority emerges. Yes. I guess a secret one. Yes. And within that, there's like a branding to be. the initiation includes a branding where you have just two sets of initial, like almost like the Dodgers logo.

Right. Yeah. Intersecting letters. It's either KR for Keith Rainier or Allison Mack. And there's pretty gruesome pictures of it on The Daily Beast, which you could look at. And so then I believe October of last year, the New York Times wrote a very long piece about the kind of branding sorority aspects of Nexium, which kind of started the second wave of investigation into Keith Rainier and his group. of followers, it would seem. Yes.

And the last week has sort of been the culmination of that investigation. Right. And initially, there wasn't a lot of legal action because everything seemed consensual if shady. Yes. But now they have sex trafficking crimes for him. And there's just a lot of wild allegations. Like, for example, Kristen Krook, who was also on Smallville, had to come out and say she was not involved or she came out that she was not involved because she was accused of

helping to recruit people alongside Allison Mack. Yes. She says that she took some of the classes but was not involved in any of the secret society within it. Right. Is my understanding of that correct? Yes. Yeah. And then also Nikki Klein from Battlestar Galactica is also rumored to be affiliated with this.

Okay. And it's just really fucking weird. It's really strange. There are a lot of questions. It's certainly there seems to be a certain. subset of kind of WB Hollywood or a certain generation of people who are involved in this, which I have a lot of questions about since this is based in Albany. Yeah, I know.

It's like they moved them, like they would take people up there for these seminars. Like I think that's part of the reason also why it probably went kind of under the radar for a while. Because it wasn't in like New York or L.A. or something like that. And the New York Times piece is really interesting because it interviews a lot of people who, who were involved with nexium on a more self-help plus. Right. And so it's similar to other classic or essentially the archetype of cults praying on people who feel vulnerable or weak or like look.

And looking for help and guidance and yeah. And coming up with like a community, fake or not or, you know, forced or not, I guess is a better way of putting it. They were like providing that by like, you know, is saying it's a sorority or whatever. Exactly. But it's just, I think the thing about this that's interesting for me is that you're not used to this sort of cult behavior in plain sight. I mean, or I'm not. Like, I'm literally looking at the Nexium website right now, which is just working to build a better world. And it's kind of like a corporate marketing, anodyne.

There's a picture of like a sunset and you can take classes to be a better self. And it just really seems like a marketing organization. It's very bizarre to have that shelf for these types of behaviors. It's not what we expect. It's not Wild Wild Country. It's not the Manson family. It's not. Yeah.

It's like fairly mainstream. It's like a secret chapter within like a mainstream organization, basically. Right. It reminds me a lot of a cult on Nato 2 and O. That Kelly almost kind of sucked into when she was in college. The other thing that's similar to some of like other more familiar organizations is that there's this guy, Frank Perlato, who used to be a part. of it who now has kind of like a whistleblower blog, although it's not a whistleblower because it's public called the Frank file, the Frank report.

And it reminds me of Tony Ortega who left Scientology and has like a blog basically chronically everything they do. And it's very similar. And it seems like his reports are essential to kind of like moving forward to the investigation, like shedding light on what's actually happening because otherwise it would be really hard to know. Totally. I think that you're drawing some important parallels that I also had in the back of my mind.

while reading this stuff. Yeah, and that's not to say anything about Scientology. Exactly. But it's just this sort of like in terms of giving a context for how to understand what this organization is, that's how we have a lot of this information. It's not only from the legal investigations and the Times, but from this one guy who's very familiar with it because he was a part of it. Yes.

And he even says that like sort of the sex part of it is that there would be like a master slave relationship that he describes where. the slaves were typically women, and they, like, had to be available at all times to, like, respond to Rainier or whatever. And if he didn't, like, he would, like, spank them using a paddle or something. There's just a lot of, like, classical tropes all thrown together here to make a very perverse organization. Absolutely. It's a lot of classical tropes. And then, you know, an Albany self-help organization, it's really, really bizarre with the actress from Smallville, which is just kind of, it does feel like Madlibs in a way.

But it's, it's fascinating. It's very weird. Absolutely. The other thing is there's like another like organization within it, which is like a women's like writing group, like a seminar called JNS. And there are videos of Allison Mack like endorsing JNS like on Vimeo, like how great it is. Like in some ways this was so brazen. I think that's the other thing that is so fascinating. This has been in the public eye for a very long time and just everyone had different pieces of the information and no one really put it together until very recently.

it seems. Yeah. It's really crazy. I think the guy also kind of looks like that it's a cult leader from that I don't know. It's just sort of throwing me off. I don't know. I find this whole thing really disturbing and just obviously, I mean, it's objectively disturbing. Yes. I don't really have a lot to like add to it except that I hope that everyone has brought down who deserves to be brought down. Absolutely. I would agree with that. And I don't know. Why does so many cults intersect with Hollywood? I guess it's just because it's a... The money. Well, the money and the insecurity, I think, also. So to end the delusions of grandeur. If you really, if you want to make it in Hollywood, you really have to believe in greatness and fame and like a mythology.

Yeah. And also you get told know a lot, like a lot. This is a lot of yes. So I think that that intersects in interesting ways. It's really bonkers. Yeah. Let's move on to another. sad topic, but certainly less consequential in some ways.

Channing Tatum and Jenna Dewan Tatum broke up. Yeah. Another thing that we kind of knew a little bit about from Blind Gossop. Yeah, Blind Goss has been writing about this for like two years. Yeah. And then yesterday they had a reveal that showed screenshots of a Facebook messenger conversation between Channing Tatum and like a random woman. That's tough.

I think the first time I really believe the rumors were December 2016. They had some. I'm surprised it lasted this long. It's a real bummer, but is it surprised? Aside from the blind gossip stuff, is it surprising? We've been talking a lot about, and this is a Bill Simmons theory a bit as well, this idea of when, in a Hollywood couple, when the fame dynamic and the success dynamic changes dramatically within a relationship, it is tough for that relationship to continue.

Makes a lot of sense. It seems like incorporation into the Marvel universe is just the kiss of death for your marriage. And Channing Tatum is like in one of these movies, isn't he? I think that he was supposed to be Gambit, but it hasn't ever happened. Oh, I can't believe I just said Gambit. Like, I know what that is. I'm really impressed Amanda. Yeah, I Googled it.

But it does, it's like he has been in a, it's been a development for a very long time. I say. Okay. My bad. Future involvement in the superhero world. Nonetheless, he's got Magic Mike. He's also like done some weird prestige stuff. People are like, oh, cool.

They get together on. and step up. They were two dancers. And they were great at dancing. And honestly, what a time that was. I saw that in theater. I just very distinctly remember going to see it one day in August in the summer 2006, like in between my summer job ending, going back to college. It was sweaty. It was 68th in Broadway. Went with my best friend Rachel. And man, did I have a good time? I think we all did. And also I think that's why we're also invested in it because step up is a classic. And you can feel their love and their connection. Frankly, you can see it. It's not. there. It's in the choreography. Dance. What a magical art form. Also, it was so exciting that the woman

who dated Justin Timberlake after he broke with Britney Spears was going to have a real career. I was like, oh, she's more than just the Britney rebound. Good for her. It's just a bummer. And then, as you said, he really just became extraordinarily both successful with Magic Mike and he was doing a lot of prestige stuff. He was in a Cohen Brothers movie. He's great in Hill Seasor. I was thinking about that this morning. He's in Foxcatcher. Soderberg movie. He was a lot of, but he was doing. He's in Foxcatcher. Soderberg movies. He just became... He was definitely a Hollywood poster child

for a long time. He got to do 21 Jump Street while also working with Steven Soderberg. That's like the dream for most actors, right? Right. And it's very hard to do as an actor right now. And also universal apprais approval. He hosted Kimmel when Kimmel was out

and that was fun. He is like just like people like him, I think, in general. Definitely one of the best email entries and the leaked Sony email? Yeah. Absolutely. Great, great stuff. That was on 21 Jump Street did really well, right?

Yeah. He, uh, everyone wants to like them. I'll be honest. I do think he seems like he has a much better personality than she does, but maybe I also just don't get to know her personality. Counterpoint. There is an iconic paparazzi photograph of Jenna Dewan Tatum driving around, going about her business in Los Angeles,

with a full sheet mask on while driving. Yeah, yeah. I really have to say that made me like her a lot. It's really the only evidence I have, but it's very strong evidence, in my opinion. This week, the day before the news came out about their divorce, there was a photo of her going to yoga, and she'd gotten out of her Tesla and forgotten to close the door. Like, she started, like, oh, we should have known it was coming. She was distracted.

Shouldn't get all our shit together. Counterpoint. So, you know the cars that have the button that you press to start them? Uh-huh. I don't have one of those. Me neither. But my husband does, and sometimes I borrow that car, and I borrow that car. I've left the car actually running, like, more than once just because I forget to turn it off.

And that's not because of any strife. It's just like cars are hard now. And I feel like the Tesla has one of those buttons. Oh, absolutely. So you don't really know what's happening. Absolutely. I just, I think cars are hard. Okay.

Fair. I agree. My take. Also hate cars. I'm like, I don't care. Like, don't get me an expensive one. It'll be a waste on me. But it's a bummer.

People are sad about this one. I think I'd be more sad if I was shocked. Should we talk a little bit about the type of announcement that they... Yes, the purple to yellow Ombray announcement? Yeah. The cut did some serious work into looking into what app they used. They hypothesized perhaps so it was Photoshop. I think it was probably custom made by someone's assistant.

That's my guess. Do you have any thoughts on the font choice? I like it. It's a long message. And they chose a seraph font, which is what you should do for something that's long. And you have to read a lot. However, I would not have sent her justified it. That's a hard go to the left, you know?

That's too much text for centering. Even on Instagram? Oh, yeah, definitely. Okay. Also, I would have put some spaces in between the Chan, Ampersand, and Jenna. I mean, after all, you're breaking up, it's not a time for a one word dual name. Sure. Yeah.

Else who just thought it was lengthy. I don't know. It just seems like this is something that, like, he wrote, like, in the bathtub, and she was like, yeah, sure. Yeah. Hey, world. So dot, dot, dot. That's, like, from the mind of a child.

It's definitely unedited. Definitely, answered. You know, I appreciated, you can tell that he wrote alternative facts and then the winking face, which is a real thing that happened. I do really like him. I just have to say. Yeah, I do. So I hope they both find happiness. It's just a bummer. Like, that was like, I thought that was a relationship that we were going to be able to believe in when it first came together. But ever since then, I don't know.

It's just a, it's a bummer. We'll always have step up. I hate breakups. Well, it'll be hard for you to watch that. Step up off and on cable. Do you even people? I feel like there's a lot of people out there who just don't get to the benefit of the cable movie anymore, but it's one of my favorite phenomenons. Saturday, two o'clock.

Oh, what's on TBS? What's on TNT? What's on USA? Oh, step up. Sure, why not? I think I'll be fine. I haven't had a hard time with that. Okay.

I just love that movie. It's such, you know, I love the whole franchise. Yeah. I think you can still love it. I think they'll still love it. I think they're giving permission for you to still love it. Okay. When you're ready.

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It's happening down under. And boy, am I excited about it. Chris Hansworth and Elsa Pataki and Matt Damon and Luciana Barrosa seemed to be embarking on a new beautiful life together. So there were rumors a few months ago that Matt Damon was just moving to Australia. That wasn't a few months ago, man. That was a few weeks ago. It was a long.

It was a long fucking marks a long. It was a long Q1. How about that? Oh, the longest. And so a few weeks ago, there were rumors that Matt Damon was moving to Australia to escape Donald Trump. And also, this was not stated, but I suspect his sort of disastrous 2017. Yes, I was suspecting that as well. Sure.

Yeah. So, and I think that kind of his rep denied it or I don't know, it was kind of like the sun rumor. But anyway, fast word to Easter, where probably the most extensive paparazzi photographs of Matt, Matt Damon and family that we've gotten in years or ever. And it's Matt Damon and co on the beach in Australia with Chris Hemsworth's whole family. Yes. At Byron Bay, which looks lovely. It seems great.

I looked it up. It's on the eastern coast of Australia. And they had a blues or a country music festival over the weekend that Matt and wife and Chris and wife and friends all went to. Yeah. They look like they're having a really good time. Like they just look like they're on like the world's best vacation. Is this what it's like to be super famous? My response was, is this what it's like to live in Australia?

Because maybe I'll move too. Seems great. Yeah. Me too. I was like, should I move? I was like, this sounds good. Seems carefree. Yeah.

Seems like no one's wearing shoes and at the beach. Sounds great. That's because Lugiana was walking around without shoes. It was pretty insane. They were all walking around without shoes. I know. And like I love a like a laid back coastal town. Like that's one of the things.

things I love about Cape Cod. It's like very laid back. They have to write on the door, no shirt, no shoes, no service. If that's your vibe, I'm interested. Yeah. Like, that sounds phenomenal. Do we know how they met or like how they were connected? They've been friends for quite a while, I believe. And then is it Matt Damon and Thor?

Ah, yes. He makes that cameo in the play. Wow. Thor 2. I saw Thor 2. Thor Ragnarok, which I believe is Thor 3. Yes, you're right. Thor Ragnarok.

That's the second Marvel reference on this. podcast, which... I'm so upset. Never again. Not our brand. They've been friends for a while. I think they met in 2013. I was reading it the other day.

That's very specifically. I think they met. I don't know. I just really like it. Also, oh, their wives got matching tattoos. They each got three dots on their pinky. I don't know what that means. It's a very slight tattoo, so I...

Okay. I don't know. I'm just... All I can really think about here is that the biggest loser is Ben Affleck. I was also thinking about that. It is, it's an interesting time to abandon your longtime best friend. Yeah. For Australia. Even though Australia looks great. I know. And like, maybe I would do it too, but it just seems really harsh. And like they were seen together last summer in Monaco. Like these are like vacation pals. And I would say, even if they're not like your

person who you talk to every day, vacation pals means a lot because there's no better way to ruin a relationship than going on a trip with someone. That's extremely true. So like if you can vacation together and I don't know. I just, this is big. Matt and Chris, it's on. It really changes a lot of dynamics. It changes the Matt and Ben dynamic. It frankly kind of changes my opinions and Chris Wars a little. Interesting. How so? I just have to say, Chris Hemsworth was always kind of my secret, my dark horse. I really, he is very funny and very charming. He's great and Ghostbusters and obviously pretty handsome. And so I kind of have, I've definitely had him above Pratt.

And for a while I've had him above Chris Evans in my personal rankings. Chris Pine is number one forever. But I'm, I've been on the Crimson, Hemsworth train for a long time. He was my number one. Really? Yeah. You love a Hemsworth. I love a Hemsworth.

I love a Hemsworth. I'm like kind of less naturally attuned to the Hemsworth vibe, but they just seem really fun. If people want to move literally across the world to go to the beach with them, That indicates to me that it's something I should investigate, you know? Yeah, I know. That's kind of what I'm thinking. I just think Hemsworth seems like he's got a really good sense of humor. Sure.

He seems like a family man. Sure. He seems most comfortable in board shorts and a tank top at the beach. But like not cool. Board shorts, like functional ones for going in the water. Yeah. Like I'm from Australia. I wear board shorts.

Right. Not like I'm from like, you know, the northeast and like suddenly discovered California and the brand Hurley and like walk down the streets of Venice all the time. Yes. Fuck that. Right. So. I think in general, I'm anti-board shorts.

I think there were two lessons from the Ben Affleck tattoo photo shoot. Sure. Number one was don't get a giant Phoenix tattoo or a Phoenix on like a bicycle tattoo or whatever the hell it is. And number two is let's rethink board shorts. But I'm willing to make an exception for Chris Hemsworth in his Australia vibe. Yeah. Like it's very specific to him.

I'm not, I agree. I'm not generally on board with board shorts. Yeah. A nice. Good one. I'm just, thank you. But he just really makes him look good. I don't know.

I also thought that I was team Liam, but I'm definitely team Chris. Like if we're choosing brothers. Well, I'm Luke first of all. I was going to say, what about Luke? That was ice cold. Luke is my favorite Hemsworth, but of the more famous Hemsworths, I go Chris over Liam. I think we need to get you a hat that says Luke is my favorite Hemsworth.

That in many ways encapsulates your approach to celebrity? Yeah, I would say. Do you think there's anyone else in the world who's like Luke's my favorite Hemsworth and is like very like talks about it a lot. I think you're going to hear from a lot of them on Instagram. I hope so. Please at Juliet on Instagram with your Luke Hemsworth fan page or fan channel. I'm, that's why I'm looking forward to Westworld. I'm like, yes, Luke back. All right, yeah. Anyway, this is a new friendship just to be aware of. Jam session, Australia. What do you think?

I'd love to go. Okay. I would love to go. I would need some serious drugs beforehand or at least a drug plan of how it's going to get there without losing my mind on the plane. That's seem like a long fight. Yeah. Okay. It's really long. We'll investigate it. Um, moving on. Yeah. This is a another breakup. Seemly confirmed, Taylor Swift and Carly Clause. They've been on the ads for a while. And the first piece of information, first sign was that when Taylor released the horrific video for Look What You Made Me Do, she wore a shirt with the name of all her squad members,

and Carly's name was not on it. Yeah. And then we all moved on and forgot about Taylor Swift because his record sucked. And then... It really did. And then she released a video ripping off another video. So we talked about her again for a minute. minute. And now, here we are, here in the beginning of Q2, and we're discussing her because

Carly Clause gave a magazine to Porter magazine, which I find to be deceptive because it's like the print extension of the website, Netta Porte. And so it should be Forte magazine, but do people say Porter or Porte? I'm not sure it's British, so there's that thrown into the mix. I think it could be said a lot of different ways. I'm going to go with Porce. Okay. Which means to wear, to sports. Yeah. Okay. And she's asked about like her best friends. And she's like, I know I have this group of women who I can always rely on. And then she lists like four other famous supermodels.

It's like Jordan Dunn, Lily Aldridge, Tony Garn, and one other ones who I can't remember. And no Taylor Swift. I just want to note that I've developed an eye twitch since we started talking about Taylor Swift. Yes, you look physically uncomfortable. Honestly, just my eyes started twitch. It's okay, Amanda. We won't dwell on it. I just felt we need to mention it.

No, it's interesting. Here's what I'm going to ask you. Okay. There have been not conspiracy. There have been rumors, shippers. There is a group of people that believe that Carly Clause and Taylor Swift were, there are a group of people who believe that Carly Clause and Taylor Swift were a romantic entity. Yes, there are. Where are you on that?

I love conspiracy theories. Sure. I bend towards them. And I tend to give all of them a chance. Yeah. I don't believe that one. I think it would just be too hard to conceal at this point. If it were true, we would know.

I also think that I don't know why Carly Clause would have a long time boyfriend, that she's kept pretty quiet if that were the case. Who is a Kushner? Yeah, I think it's probably keeping him around is not improving her career, I might say. He's, like, rich and just like quietly so. And I don't really think he's like a fame whore. So I don't know why he would just like date her for like, the fame that he's not actually getting.

That's a good point. So I don't believe it because I don't, I actually believe in that relationship. What do you think? I agree with you. I mean, people keep all sorts of secrets, so I guess we might never know. But I think that the Kushner of it all makes a lot of sense. Yeah. It's like, it's definitely seems possible, but I also just don't, I don't know who Taylor Swift is.

Like, I don't know which, not to get too meta. Yeah. But like, I don't know. which Taylor is the real one at this point. I wonder if she does. Yeah. So it's like hard to say because I just don't know who she is. Yeah.

I mean, I think honestly maybe the problem with the last album is that she does not know who she is either. Yeah. And is playing to all the different ideas. And she's clearly reading a lot about herself in the press and playing to the various rumors. And, you know, she's had a lot of success with that in the past. That is, in fact, how she became such a giant pop star. But I think she's a bit lost in it. Yeah.

And the Taylor Swift narrative, least the one that I have in my head, things changed for her when she came out with We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together because that was her first song with Dr. Luke. I mean, excuse me, with Max Martin. And that was a really big departure for her. It was the lead single was a pop song

and she was not like the main writer on it. She was a co-writer with like the biggest songwriter on the history of pop music probably. So at that point, I think things just got really murky and like became a lot less, became much more difficult to defend her. if you are a pro-tailor. Do you think that this is just a friend falling out?

Do you think that it's kind of a business strategy? I think it's a friend falling out. Okay. I don't know. The slights are petty too. Like when Carly Clause posted an Instagram that said swish-swish, like choosing the Katie Perry lyrics. Yeah.

It just all seems like a little bit too pointed. What happened then? I don't know. I don't know if we'll have. We need to get some insiders. I don't know how we'd find out otherwise. It's not always something they want to adjudicate in the press. Yeah, that's what I would say.

It just seems like it would be more managed than this, unless they're managing the feud together in order to fuel whatever. I'm not sure. It's a weird one. Before we get to our reveal, we need to address one thing that we had discussed, but forgot to mention up top. Incredible photos of John Legend on the streets of New York this week. John Legend starred in Jesus Christ Superstar on Sunday.

Which I haven't watched yet, but I planned to. I heard it was great. Rob Harvilla wrote a piece about it on The Ringer. Yes. Really enjoyed it. Yeah. Specifically enjoyed the John Legend of it all. I have always liked John Legend very, very much.

I went to the college dropout tour, the Kanye West one when I was a senior in high school. And it was like a very, you know, just a very paired back show. It was a rapper on stage with his piano accompaniment. And it was John Legend. Amazing. Yeah. And it was awesome. He has such a great voice.

And I like his music. I don't care if people consider him a sellout. Also, I love him and Chrissy Teigen. I was about to say he and Chrissy Teigen are very good at being a celebrity power couple. They're really good at it. And also, he seems like they both are fairly candid, but also make career choices deliberately, which I think is a great combination. They're very savvy. Yeah.

They're very good at performing the art of celebrity. And in like a likable way. I just feel like we're all on this journey together and we all know what we want from each other. That'll be a heartbreaker if they break up. I agree. Oh, that would be awful. I have a hard time to see that last forever, but hopefully well. Including being good a celebrity was when he walked out on the street wearing a silk animal print robe, no shoes, and seemingly no pants with a shirt underneath it, to like wish them to see goodbye to Lune on their daughter and Christia that they were, like, getting into a car.

Yeah. It looked like he was like somewhere in the village outside of some brownstones. And it was incredible. It was just like, I don't know. He just was treating the streets of New York like his own front yard. Amazing. And I just also, as a person who really enjoys bath robes, I really covet the robe. Great robe.

He looked incredible. A plus robe. I just loved it. I was just like, what a flex. Like, it's really hard to get good reviews on those musicals. And he did it. Yep. And then wore that robe.

It's great. I loved it. Congrats to them. Absolutely loved it. So we've been talking all about couples, friends, couples, romantic couples. Oh, this is it. The big moment. Okay.

I have a new pair who I'm inducting into my personal celebrity couple Hall of Fame. Oh, this is exciting. I just think I don't get enough credit Nearly enough coverage And they're so incredibly weird That it's just like I could scrutinize it forever Okay I don't think you're ever gonna be able to guess who it is

So I'm just gonna tell you I'm just nervous that I'm not gonna know who you're talking about Yes you definitely will Okay Jason Mamoa and Lisa Bonnet I was just thinking about couples That I think are gonna get divorced In the wake of TAM and Jenna Dewan

And I was just thinking like Damn you know who's never going to get divorced Jason Moa and Lisa Bonnet because he fucking loves her. And when he talks about her, he's just so passionate about how he saw her across the room and just knew that she needed to be his wife and now they have kids together. And I just absolutely love it. It's two oddballs who I hope found, you know, found each other. Yeah. There's been a lot of discussion kind of among the ringer of like should we have seen this coming with Chana and with Channing and Jenna.

Chana is good. Chana. And some people cited the whole performative nature of their, like performative public nature of their relationship as suspicious. And I actually am not sure that I find that suspicious. I kind of think if you are out in public just talking about how much you love your spouse. Yeah. It's really, really hard to sell that consistently if you don't mean it. Sure.

Oh, absolutely. And so the fact that he really loves her, that to me is a good indication. Yeah. I think the problem is when you start getting the marriage is hard interviews in public or like Penn Afflex on stage accepted an Oscar being like, it's work. It's true. So I think Outlook good, Juliet. I really, really hope so. They just are so ridiculous.

The other couple that I realize that I really like that I've never really thought about before. Yeah. Nicole came in and Keith Urban. Also, really big fans of each other. Yeah. Except for when she makes out with Alexander Scars Guard. But the fact that he's so bothered by it is a great sign. It's great.

Yeah. I don't know. I just, I feel like on this, on her award show, Gauntlet, he was a great plus one. They're fairly quiet about their relationship. Like, they're just sort of like so famous that it kind of just like goes that saying in some way. I don't know, though. They're also famous across continents. I just think they're, they both like clear. They also seem weird. I like it when the weird people find each other. That's, I guess what I'm saying. Yeah, I think I like them as well. Nicole Kidman has always just going to be a mystery to me until I get her memoir. because of who she was married to before Keith Urban. And also the weird stuff with her kids, the Tom Cruise. Yeah, I just am going to need to have some questions answered.

I wish her well. I like her. I think she's a great actress. But I don't feel like I have a handle on what's going on there. I've never found her beautiful or sexy. So I'm confused by so many men love her. I think that's fine. I think there are different types of beauty for different people. You're right. Thanks for listening. Thank you to hotel tonight. Thank you to Fordo Coffee. And don't forget to check out the ringer merch store at the ringer.com slash shop. You can buy hats, t-shirts. We've got plenty for you to choose from.

Check it out. Theringer.com slash shop and get your order in. You'll look cool on the streets. Thanks again for listening. We'll be back in two weeks.