The Press Box - Cris Collinsworth on New Partners, a Bengals Super Bowl, John Madden's Legacy, and the Fate of the Collinsworth Slide

Episode Date: August 17, 2022

Bryan is joined by NBC’s Cris Collinsworth to discuss his three-decade career as an analyst and announcer. They reflect on Collinsworth's time playing for the Cincinnati Bengals, discuss what it was like calling the 2022 Super Bowl, touch on his relationship with the late John Madden, and later dive into the biggest differences between calling a game in the '90s versus today, and weigh in on who could be the next best announcer. Host: Bryan Curtis Guest: Cris Collinsworth Associate Producer: Erika Cervantes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Call me sentimental, but to me, the most joyful moment in sports is the soccer goal. And when that goal happens at the World Cup, well, it's pretty good. I'm Brian Phillips. With the 2022 Men's World Cup approaching, I'm making a podcast called 22 goals on the Ringer Podcast Network. It's about 22 of the most fire emoji goals in the history of the tournament. We're going to have so much fun. Hello, media consumers. Welcome to the press box.

Ryan Curtis of the Ringer here, along with producer Erica Servantes. Today's guest is NBC's Chris Collinsworth. To me, Chris Collinsworth offers an interesting look at the national conversation we tend to have about TV announcers. In 2009, Collinsworth replaced John Madden on Sunday night football. And within a year, he had become the consensus best TV analyst in the NFL. Collinsworth could use replays to reveal subtle things about the way the game. game is played. He was interested not just in what the skill players were doing, but like Madden before him in the lineman. He was the first prominent football analyst to really get analytics.

He bought Pro Football Focus. And then, starting around 2017, America had a brief but intense love affair with CBS's Tony Romo. Last season, there was a notable Troy Aitman boomlet. I feel a little bit like Bill Simmons talking about NBA most valuable player voting when I say, are we sure Chris Collinsworth isn't still the best NFL analyst and that everybody just got tired of saying it over and over again? Though as you'll hear, Collinsworth isn't into announcer rankings. Collinsworth and I talked about a number of things, including how calling an NFL game has changed in the three decades he's been in the business, the legacy of John Madden, and his very brief, very funny tenure as Madden's play-by-play partner. Plus, as a guy who played in two Super Bowls

and called the Bengals Super Bowl in February, what does it feel like to lose the big game? Here's Chris Collins. All right, Chris, you played in two Super Bowls with the Bengals, and then you got to call the third Bengals Super Bowl in February. What did that feel like? It was weird. I got to tell you, it was weird. And I knew it was going to be weird from the moment that they kicked the field goal against Kansas City to send them to the Super Bowl. I actually had just contacted COVID for the first time, and I didn't realize it yet. But I was really not feeling well and watching the game and watching that ball sail through there and thinking, uh-oh, this is going to get really interesting now. Because no matter what, when it's your team, right?

I'm sure Troy and Tony feel this whenever they do the Cowboys. When it's your team, you're tugged a little bit and you feel a little of that, but you also know that you're going to be scrutinized in a way that you wouldn't have been if it had been Kansas City in the Rams. So, and then I just, you know, there was an old television show called Dragnet. and the guy would the cop when he was talking to a potential witness would always say the same thing just just the facts man just give us the facts ma'am and so that's how i called that super bowl i just gave them the facts that was it you think you were even fairer and more down the middle than

you would normally be in a game just to compensate yeah i do i do think that i compensated a little bit and there was a call late in the game. There was a penalty called against the Bengals where it would have been fourth down and eight and had a pass interference call inside the 10-yard line, gave the Rams the first down and whatever, three or four, when it would have been fourth and seven or eight, whatever the situation was.

And from there, it really was, I can remember going, uh-oh, because I think if it had been an ordinary game, an ordinary team, I would have said something like, okay, you know, that call hasn't been made all day, but it's called here. That was, and I think it came out something like, well, we haven't seen a lot of those calls today or something. I was just trying to like, okay, let me just play it down the middle here. So I tried to.

I hear what you say about the scrutiny. But to me, it's a shame because you know what that Super Bowl means to that team. You know what that Super Bowl means to City of San Diego. Cincinnati living across the river like you do. And I would think when I tune in, I want to know what Chris Collinsworth, what this feels like because he knows better than just about anybody else. You would and maybe my mother would and that's about it.

The one thing that you learn as a broadcaster very quickly is that people can smell bias, right? Even when there's none there, they think it's there. I probably get more criticism in Cincinnati than I do anywhere else because people expect me to be show favoritism towards the Bengals. That was my team. But I get the number one question I get in almost every city I visit is why do you hate the fill in the blank of whatever your team is, right?

They don't think I hate anybody else. Like, I never hear you be biased, you know, against any other team, only, you know, this Saskatchewan, whatever they are, you know, that's the line. And so all my friends know it and the people that I work with know it. And so when it comes up or somebody comes over at dinner or whatever, then I just, you know, I just try to backpedal and go, you know, it's. It's not, you know, I don't dislike your team. And although it did happen one time to me that we were getting ready to call the

the Giants Patriot Super Bowl in Indianapolis. And it was the night before the game. My family had just come in, come in. And so it was a nice break in the action. We're going to go to dinner. And then I was going to go back and the game was the next day. So I was probably up in the bed a little bit anyway. And I'm walking out of dinner.

and there were a bunch of Giants fans. And I knew that because they were all wearing Giants hats and T-shirts and stuff. And so I went, my family walks by first, and then I'm the last one. And a guy turns around and goes, A. Collinsworth, right? So if he said, A, Chris, sometimes they go, oh, man, we love what you do. And it's so fun. And he goes, A, Collinsworth. So I know what's coming, right?

I know. and he goes, hey, Gallonsworth, why you hate the Giants so much? And at that point, usually I kick into, I don't hate your team. It's just I'm trying to be unbiased. But this time, he said, hey, Collinsworth, why do you hate the Giants so much? I turned and looked at that guy and I went, oh, no, I just hate him. And I walked right out the door. And it was like the greatest feeling of freedom I had ever had in my life.

And the minute I got outside, I said, you are the biggest dummy in the history. That's going to be front page of the New York Times tomorrow. Likely for me it wasn't. But I'm sure they, to this day, have told that story many, many times. If this year's Super Bowl had been on CBS or Fox, would you have gone as a fan? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

But I've been to every Super Bowl since 1999, except the one in 10. Tampa the year before because of the COVID restrictions. I got you. When you go to Bengals game, do you wear a Chris Collinsworth jersey or do you do the neutral colors thing? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm real big on wearing a Chris Collinsworth jersey. No, I go to the game.

I cheer for the team. You know, it's so funny, though. When I'm calling the game, I'm like so deep into the pits of everything that's going on. I've got a bunch of monitors and I can watch the game from any angle I want. And I've memorized all the names and numbers and I'm so intense. And then when I go to the game on if the Bengals play on a Thursday night or a Monday night when I can actually go, it's like I'm watching a bunch of pee-wee kids down over the hill playing ball.

I'm like, aren't they cute? Look at them down there running around. And I'm like totally, totally relaxed. I'm not studying anything. I'm just kind of sitting there enjoying it and having a drink and some popcorn and just having a good time. 2015, you told the Bengals website you think about losing the Super Bowls you played in every week. You still think about that every week? I would say closer to every day, but yeah, for sure.

Absolutely. And I've wondered a lot of times, a lot of things have happened. my life. You know, I went on to go to law school and got married and started a business and all those sorts of things. And sometimes I wonder if I had won, been a part of the winning team on those two Super Bowls, would I have been one of those guys just running around trying to sign autographs and making a living that way as opposed to when you lose them, you still got a lot to prove in your life and it kind of drives you forward from there. So, you know, yeah, it was the worst two days of my life. But it kept me plenty energized for the rest of my life. I'll say that.

When you think about it, how does it manifest itself? Do you think of a play? Do you think of the sensation of losing? Yeah, I think of a lot of plays. I think of a lot of different things. that because the two games that we lost, you know, the 49ers have won five Super Bowls, right? And three of them were blowouts and two of them were against us. So they're only two close Super Bowls. We're both against us. And so when we do the 49ers game, I always go by their trophy case and I kind of look. And then they always have, you know, one of the Super Bowl rings there.

And you've got to go, you know, it makes you crazy. It really does because you just can't believe you lost. I mean, to get to the Super Bowl, you have to have such a run of success that you just think you're going to win again. I mean, you know, the idea that you're not going to win the game is like it doesn't even cross your mind. And then when you don't, it's not only painful that you lost the Super Bowl, but it's stunning to your senses a little bit because you've won so much, you know, during the course of the season that you, just, you know, surprises you. I want to ask you about John Madden who died in December. When was the last time you talked to him? Oh, it was probably, you know, he had a little trouble hearing at the end. So it was hard to carry on a conversation. But I would say a year before that. And, you know, I was,

I always tried to pick his brain. And, you know, what is he here from me? What is he not here? what would he like to do? What, you know, and he never would, honestly. He never would. He just didn't believe in doing that. And I think I finally wore him down. And I said, I go just one. I said, just give me one.

And he said, don't make up your mind before you get to the stadium. In other words, don't let your research so dictate what you're going to do in the game. that you miss what's going on in the game. And it was a good advice for me because I really do. I bring so much into the booth that I want to talk about. And yet, as John would say, you know, you've got a plan and then a game breaks out, right? And it really is true that what you believed about that game is not necessarily what is happening in that game. And really, everything else is sort of ancient history.

and you're the first take on the new history, which is the game being played before you. And so, yeah, that was his bit of advice. But it was fantastic. You know, we came really close to working together at one time. They tried me out as a play-by-play guy. And in the history of play-by-play guys, there was not anybody even close to as bad as I was.

I mean, it was so awful. And yet John and Dick Ever saw, they were convinced that this was going to work. And I had to kind of wiggle my way off the hook with that one. I want a no part. What is for the uninitiated, what is hard about doing play by play? I think the hardest thing for me was that when I call a game, I don't watch the ball. So like 10 times a year, you kind of get burnt. doing that. But after a while, you sort of get, the ball eventually comes into the picture and you know

how it got there. So I may start off watching the offensive line protection and then my eyes will go to the coverage and then, you know, the matchups that I wanted to watch before that. And the ball usually shows up somewhere in the mix there. But sometimes it doesn't. And Al will look at me like, why aren't you doing the replay. And I was like, I have no idea what happened. But it doesn't happen very often. And but yeah, it's so, and when you do play by play, you're watching the ball. When you're doing color, you're not watching the ball. You know, so that's the biggest difference. And so I probably got bored doing it, you know, because, and I think the best way to call play by play is probably off the television monitor so that you're seeing what the fans see.

seeing. And meanwhile, I should be watching everything the fans aren't seeing, I guess is how you describe it. I was reading Ebersoll's forthcoming book. And he said you worked really hard at play-by-play. 2004 season, you sat in a truck in Cincinnati and called games with Merrill Hodge doing color. And then you went out to Pleasanton, California and did a Pats Broncos playoff game with John Matt. I did. Is pro football focus going to post the video of the Collinsworth Madden playoff game just for posterity? Everybody who's involved in that would be fired immediately. The best one was my son Jack when Dick Eversall was trying to talk me into it.

And only Jack had, who sat up in the room with me while I was calling one or listening to a broadcast back where I was the play-by-play guy, I made it about 30 seconds into it. And I just let out a scream. I was like, ah, I just couldn't. stand it. And so soon after that Dick called and, you know, he was trying to encourage me. And he said, well, Jack, Jack was about 12 at the time, I think. He said, Jack, what'd you think of your dad's play by play? And he goes, I give him about a four. I think he was generous too. For people who didn't grow up in the age of Madden, why was he so good on TV?

You know, he was the first one, and I think everybody respected what he knew about football. You know, you got to start there. You got to have the respect to that. But John could always find something fun or funny in football. And it never detracted from the game. Like, he never would talk about any of that stuff. But if a bird flew on the field or the guy took off his helmet and steam was coming out. or as a former offensive lineman,

it was okay for him to talk about the offensive lineman's gut hanging over his belt buckle. And those were the kind of things that I think, for the generation that didn't get to hear John on a daily basis, they missed a lot of fun. They just missed the ability to have a laugh. And he was the same way in real life, Right? When he came to our house one time, and the very first broadcast was the Sunday night team ever did it was a preseason game in Cincinnati.

And so everybody in the neighborhood was all hyped up, that John Madden was coming. He comes in the big bus and did the whole thing. And but he gets in our backyard. And so there's 50 people waiting to talk to John Madden. and I go, John, before you do that, let me introduce you to my two boys who were nine and seven or something at the time. And they were both playing like pee-wee football. And I go, John, I said, here's Austin and Jack. And, you know, they're playing in the junior football league. And so John goes, Junior Football League. I love junior football.

That's the best. What kind of defense are you guys playing? And they're like, six two. Six, two, I can tell you how to beat a six two defense. And he does the whole Madden stick. He does the knives and the forks and the salt shaker and a peps shaker. And he does it for like an hour. He doesn't get up from talking to the boys about the junior football league thing.

And my kids are sitting there wide eye that John Madden is, you know, doing all this stuff. And at the end of it, he gets up, he goes over and he gives my wife Holly a hug, shakes my hand. He goes, this is a great party. It was just a great party. I got to go. I had the best time. See you guys. We'll see you. That's it. He didn't talk to anybody else. He got engaged with football with my two boys. And that was it. That was the whole thing. I go, he's the coolest guy in the world right there. I love John Matt. When you started calling games for NBC back in 1990, was his voice in your head somewhere? It was, but I fought to not let it because, um,

I don't know how old you are, but if you can remember that era, it was, there were about six people doing John Madden impersonations on the era. And people who I knew personally, and I was like, what are they doing? It sounds ridiculous, you know, the slobber knockers and the booms and all that. And I was like, I will never do that. And I probably have said boom four times in 30 years of doing this. And every time I do, I went, damn it. You know, like I always swore I would never do that. But it does become ingrained in your head, you know, that that's what you say when you see this in a football game because John Madden did it.

You told me this story once, 2009 Super Bowl, you're doing pregame and halftime for Madden, of course, called the game. And around that time, NBC threw you a 50th birthday party that Madden came to. What happened? It was right before the Super Bowl. It was right before John's last game that he called. Nobody knew it was going to be John's last game. He had just turned 70, I think, and I had just turned 50.

And they brought out a birthday cake for me. His was not been, but prior. and so they sang happy birthday and I didn't really think anything of it it was like three days before the game so we're all you know amped up and ready to go and and John later that at the end of that party came up and he goes I can't believe you're 50 years old you're you're really 50 he goes wow and so we kind of had a little discussion about it you know and but I can see it's kind of the wheels were spinning with them a little and um And he told me much later that one of the reasons that he knew it was time wasn't the only reason by any means.

But one of the reasons was he goes, I've been unfair. He goes, that should be your job now. You should be doing what I'm doing. I've been hogging the seat for too long. And I go, John, oh, I wish you to send some of that out loud because I had my one son playing at Notre Dame. I had another one playing high school football. So when I was doing the pregame show, I didn't have to go in until Saturday night. So I could watch everything and then go to the game.

But when he quit and then I had to do it, then I had to start going in on Thursday night. And now I'm spending more money on airplane travel to watch high school and college football than any human being on the history of the planet. So I really think he sort of thought he was doing me a favor where he really could have done me a favor by staying there for four years at least. So it's, it's, great memories. He was a great influence, not just on me, but on everybody. I mean, he just, he made everything associated with football more fun. You're not such as such a young whippersnapper like I thought you were, Chris. It's time to. I'm not. Get out of way. Certainly not. So this season, you've got two games opening week, Rams Bills on Thursday, September 8.

and then the Cowboys Bucks three days later. Where are you in your preparation right now? Well, I've got a lot done on all four teams. I actually went back last night and watched the Bill's Chiefs game again, and one of the great games of all time. But a lot of that, I'm kind of done because for the rain, for example, we did their Super Bowl. So, and we also did the game against the box.

And so we had seen the game the week before for the Rams, saw that one, obviously studied the championship game for the Super Bowl. So I had a lot of that done already. And then the bank, Dallas, we do three times a year. but I have, I would say I have 50% of the work done for those two games already. So, you know, and obviously a lot more focus. I'm like every other football fan right now, I'm a little frustrated watching week one preseason games, which I don't think anybody who's going to play on opening night or playing in those games.

So, you know, it's just, I'm, I'm as anxious as anybody. but the real intense film study for me a little start in a couple days. Take the Rams since you called a couple of their games recently and also, as you say, they bring a lot of people back. What part of the Rams remains mysterious to you?

Mysterious. You know, I think it's going to be a little bit of I mean, Matthew Stafford's a little mysterious. You know, he's had the arm injury, that they've had some elbow injuries with that. But he's also a guy that had the most interceptions in all the football last year. But when the money was on the line for Matthew Stafford in the fourth quarter, he had 12 touchdowns and one interception and a 1221 rate. he was he's much more of a no look passer than what people realize and i'm really and i'm really and i love the story of matthew stafford and cooper cup that these two guys would come to the facility at

six a m every single day have breakfast together talk ball watch film together and it turned into Cooper Cup winning the triple crown of receiving. And as great a player as Cooper Cup is, I'm guessing before Odell's injury, if you just said who's the best receiver on the Rams, it probably would have been about 50-50 with Odell. You know, it's like Cup gets almost no respect as far as being the best receiver in the game

and yet the numbers will tell you, you know, that he is. And defensively, I'm always intrigued by the idea that really they're going to play with superstars, right? That you're better off, like they've traded away all their draft picks for five or six years. They don't have first round or even second round draft picks. But as long as they have Jalen Ramsey, as long as they have Aaron Donald, now they had Bobby Wagner. so they've got a player at every level. As long as you have superstars at every level, that's better than having,

like the Pittsburgh Steelers, I would say, have really good players, but they're not superstar driven, right? So that part of this team has always intrigued me that they went off the reservation. Everybody else says you have to play to get more and better draft picks, and the Rams have gone the opposite way of that,

and their role teams. When I visited you in Kentucky a few years ago, you would look at film and basically record a commentary track over it with your observations about the players and schemes. Do you still do that? I do. And what's the purpose of that?

I want everybody, the producer, my partner, Mike, in this case, Melissa, Will, Drew has a call of our director. I want everybody to have seen what I'm going to be talking. about before we actually see it on the screen. And a lot of times the truck will see something that I've put together in those tapes that I didn't see.

And they'll throw it up there and go, you know, we've got one word phrases. It's probably the least understood part of how much goes into a football broadcast before you ever get on the air. And so when a play happens, Al watches the ball. I don't. I'll call down to Fred Goodellie and Drew Esacob and say what I think is the most important thing we should replay. Freddie will say whatever he saw. He's, of course, the one pushing the buttons.

So then he basically has to decide, is it what I saw? Is it what he saw? Or occasionally we can get both on. is a replay. And it all happens in about a second and a half. Because you only get 10 seconds before the next play, by the time Al gets finished calling the play, who made the tackle, who made it run, da-da-da-da-da-da.

We've got about 10 seconds. So it's a, it's really a lightning, fast discussion, an interaction that happens. And so, you know, when it's really good, it just kind of flows. and if it's really bad, you usually can tell these guys don't communicate very well in a broadcast. So, yeah, it's an art form. I think it's why as a general rule, there have been some, John Madden was one,

Tony Romo is another, but as a general rule, people kind of can go right in the studio and have success just being a personality. but there's a certain technical aspect of calling games that makes it hard for superstars to come right out and be great in a booth and make it happen just because there's so many things going on at the same time. You said one word phrase that you use as a shorthand. What's an example of that? You know, outside zone, slot blitz.

Cover 4, no look, chip. You know, there's just like, there's, you know, it could be, it might be picked tough, which is the tackle coming out and smashing into the offensive tackle, kicking him off the block and the guy looping inside. So the guard has to pick him up, which ends up with a draw. direct line to the quarterback. So all my guys know immediately where to go with that, you know, and as if I have to, so I'm actually doing that tomorrow as part of a drill with this whole new team that we have is just like, okay, let's tighten up the wording. How few words can we say

and portray exactly what we're going to talk about? You worked with Al Michaels for 14 years. How would you describe the relationship you guys had on the air? Well, on the year, I think, everybody can describe whatever they think it is, but off the air, we're best of friends. I mean, I still talk to them every other day. And we, his wife, my wife, Linda and Holly. I mean, we would go out to dinner usually Friday night and Saturday night. And others would join on occasion, but almost always we would. And we spend a lot of time together in the offseason.

So, yeah, we're great, great friends. And, you know, but I'm friends with Mike Tariko too. But 13 years is 13 years, right? It's a relationship. You grow into it. And Al's big contribution to my career, I think, was, A, he's unbelievable setting the tone of a broadcast. Like, very rarely do you hear Al Michaels go to level 10, right? the miracle on ice maybe was level 10.

But he usually works between level 4 and level 7. And so if it's anything above level 7, it's a pretty amazing play. And yet he has a very, but he knows how to play his own voice, you know, up and down. And, you know, it's like a great storyteller knows how to use his voice like an instrument of some kind. But he also taught me that it's a relationship. You know, it's hopefully people can tell that we're friends on the air, even though, and sometimes that's in when we're, you know, teasing each other or some. But, you know, we've had a lot of conversations about every possible subject out there.

And so there's a lot of times we just give each other a smile because we know we can't go there, but we're both thinking something that we can't stay on the air. And that kind of makes it fun too, you know, so we have a good time together. The people watching Sunday night football want at least a hint that you guys have a relationship off the air, that you are friendly with each other. That makes their experience watching it better. I mean, I hear that a lot. You know, I hear that or heard that a lot that people can tell that we enjoy what we're doing. We're we try not to get it too slap sticky. You know, we know how important it is to so many people.

And we've got a job to do up there. But, you know, professional. But I hope, I think sort of the goal is that most people would be okay if we were sitting on the living room couch with them and talking about football. And that's, you know, by Sunday night, there's been a lot of excitement during the course of the day. There's a lot of people that watch a lot of football games and they're probably sitting back in their couch with something cold in their hand. They don't want anybody yelling at them too much. If it's exciting, be excited. But, you know, let's not go too far over the top.

It's prime time. Other people in the room would rather have the remote in their hand and watch something else. So we try to play to Grandma as much as we play to the guy betting $1,000 on the game. When he called the Super Bowl this year, it was likely, if not totally official, that he was going to leave NBC for Amazon. Did you say something to each other at the end of the broadcast? No. No. I mean, we talked about it so many times. It was unnecessary.

But we've talked a lot about it since. And I think that, I mean, the nice thing about it is that neither one of us, at the end of our careers when the inevitable happened. But it, so I'm glad that neither one of us fell apart, and that's why it had to end. You know, Al's going to go on. I'm going to go on and do something. But I think both of us will really treasure the 13 years. I mean, that was 11 straight years as the number one show on television.

It had never been, there had never been a sports show as the number one show. in the history of television. The longest running show was American Idol that was number one six straight years. So for there to have never been a number one sports show and nobody had ever done it more than six years. And we've done it 11 out of the 13 years together in 11 in a row. We'll treasure that. You know, that's our little trophy to take out of there. and nobody's going to talk about it outside of an occasional podcast now and then.

But we know, you know, I think Fred Goodale and Michelle Tofoya and Al Michaels and I and will, and Drew Esacoff will always remember a great run, maybe like the Cowboys or the Steelers or the 49ers. You know, we had a great run. So I'm really excited about it. I was surprised to learn from NBC that you've called 22 games with Mike Tariko, including the Hall of Fame game the other day. What will you two have to work on over the first few weeks of the season? Probably just doing the game.

You know, it's like we did the Hall of Fame game together the other day, but it's not a football game. It's a, you know, hey, let's go down the field and interview, Dick Vermeal. Hey, let's get, you know, it's like you're never calling a football game. So just the timing and the rhythm of doing the game and, you know, what's important to me, what's important to him. And, you know, I think broadcasting is best when it's truly a sort of shared thing that no one person dominates the broadcast. It's a real partnership. And I include the truck in that, too, the graphics and all the different elements that our guys do such a great job of.

And so, yeah, just being patient. I don't think, you know, we're not going to impress anybody in the first month. They're not going to go, oh, this is the greatest or this is the worst or this is, you just have broadcasting is patience. It's like parenting a little bit. You just have to kind of go, all right, we're going to get there. Let's just pretend, like I tried early in football games, pretend like I'm already in the third quarter. or in week one, pretend like I'm in week nine of the season.

You know, what would I sound like then? So, but opening night is opening night. And, you know, the entire NFL is watching. Everybody's excited. The Super Bowl champs deserve their moment in the sun. And, you know, the Super Bowl favorite is playing against them on that opening Thursday night. So pretty cool. Now, clear this up.

Does the Collinsworth slide continue with Toriko, or did that get? retired with Al? I think it's probably going to get retired because Al always opened the broadcast by himself and that's sort of where it started because, you know, we sit right next to each other for the opening on camera. And so Al would do it by himself and Drew Esacolp, our director would say, you know, because they'd give me a piece of tape and they'd say, put that right between your legs. I'm like, okay. So I'm sitting there. And Al's, over there and he's getting ready to do his thing and Drew would say, Chris, get out of the shot, you're in the shot. It's like my shoulder would be in the shot or something. Like, okay,

so then I would just lean out of the shot like that. And then he would call me in and then I would do that. And it seemed very normal to all of us because, you know, it was just, that was the only way I could get in and out of the shot and make it work. But there was a guy from Barstool, I think, that put it out there. And it had to be like some soccer goal that was scored. There was a bar that had to have 5,000 people in it. And so when I slid in, they timed it out where it was our video and the soccer crowd reaction. And they went crazy.

And then there was like a dedicated website to the slide in. It was nuts. Hollywood always give me the report of the internet of, you know, oh, that was. was a bad slider. That was a good slide. Or I bit my lip or I, you know, you always do something. Now, what if you turn on that first Thursday night game on Amazon and Herbie is sliding in next to Al? Are you going to be okay with it? That would be the greatest thing of all time. That would be fantastic. You know, the funny thing is I'm really good friends with Kirk Herb Street. He's got a kid here in Cincinnati and going to school at St. X.

And really, I'm friends with all the other broadcasters that are doing it. But, you know, we're always pitted against each other. It's like, you know, rank the order of the broadcast teams and do that, you know, social media. So, but we all have a pretty good laugh about it at the end. I mentioned you started calling games with NBC in 1990. What's the biggest difference between calling a game in 1990? and calling one in 2022. Information.

I mean, in 1990, if I had one local newspaper article from San Diego, we were doing the Chargers, that was gold. And I built the whole broadcast around that one article because there was no internet. There wasn't, you didn't, you got a bunch of clips. You could watch the film once you got to the stadium. I mean, now for me, my film studies over on Wednesday. I've studied every film there is available to me. And by the time I get out there, I'm not watching any film anymore.

And I've read 10 million internet stories and newspaper stories. And I'm sick of all that stuff too. So, yeah, just, I mean, everybody does, though. I mean, cab drivers, when I go, I always said, when I go to Pittsburgh, If I know as much as local cab driver that drives me in from the airport about the Pittsburgh Steelers, that's doing pretty well because this guy's been watching his whole life, right? And so, but always one of the great celebrations, now everything is on computer, but back when it was paper, is right before kickoff, I would walk over with about 10 pounds of paper that had been sent to me that week and just dump it in the trash can and go, let's go, call a game, baby. Let's go. So that was always a happy day.

Tell me if I have this right. Back in the 90s, NFL color analysts were graded to a certain extent on their willingness to criticize people on TV. They blow people up once in a while. When did that flip, do you think? I think social media flipped it. That, you know, it used to be you never heard anybody say anything negative. You know, there were there were a few critics, TV critics, movie critics, political critics out there. You know, but there were three nightly newscasts.

They had to have a relationship with all the politicians. The football players were, you know, former players and coaches, and they were all buddies. And so they would all take care of their buddies on the air. And there was a guy named Rudy Markski. I don't know if you remember Rudy Markski. He wrote for the USA Today, and he would just kill you if you sucked up to players or coaches. And the ones that were edgy, you know, he made out to be superstars. And because it was a national publication, it carried a lot of weight.

And, but then it seemed like the Internet came along. And, you know, a TV critic didn't sound like anything that you have. and read online, no matter how bad the criticism was, because on the internet, it's always a lot worse, right? I mean, they're running down your whole family tree at the end of the day. And so, yeah, and I, so then I think it got to there. And then people were a little sick of hearing cheap criticism, you know, or unfounded. Like, it's still, it's still a big part of the job to be willing to, hey, Patrick Mahomes blew that one. know Sean Payton, that was a bad choice.

You know, I mean, you've got to be honest. And I don't think you have to be sort of intentionally aggressive the way that you once did to survive in this business. More analysts are more likely to be graded on how they explain to play, how they predictor to play, how they explain the scheme. Yeah, I think that's right. And, you know, it's funny, the whole predicting plays thing. and all that. You know, we do go to practice on Friday. And so we see a lot of plays.

So by formation a lot of times, I'll know what the play is going to be because I've seen it in practice. But I never, I try. If I do have insider information, I'll never do that in a broadcast. I just won't because I think it's unfair because I might be wrong. And then I'm tipping that out of that formation, they're likely to run this kind of play. You know what I mean? Now, it doesn't mean I won't take a shot at predicting plays every once in a while if I have a good feeling. And I've had a, you know, it's a fun part of the job.

But I think sometimes it's unfair to take advantage of the perk that we get, which is being able to watch private. You're one of the first network guys to really get interested in analytics pro football focus. How much of that stuff do you think the audience of Sunday night football is interested in? Some, but I think you can wear people out with it too. There's a definite balance to the whole thing. So out of the analytics will come five to ten really interesting things. But if you try and force them into the broadcast, it sounds bad. if it's something that is very pertinent to what's been happening in the action,

I think it can be a real enhancer to the broadcast. So I probably go in with 150 analytical notes, and if we get on five of them, that would be a lot. But if you want to go to the bar afterwards, I can have some real interesting conversations whether you're about the rest of them. I'm always interested in how networks try to project a player's ability to be an announcer based on how they talk in those pregame meetings with you guys. Having been in those meetings for a few decades now,

how closely has that tracked, do you think? I would say pretty closely. I think we all have a list of people that we think would be great announcers. And probably the consensus of the guy that would be the best. Do you want to take a guess? I've heard Mike Tomlin's name. Mike Tomlin.

That's exactly it. I think almost everybody thinks that, and I think it extends beyond that. I think Mike could be the next commissioner. He could be senator. He's just one of those unique speakers that has an authoritative kind of way of saying it. and has a unique way of saying everything that he says.

Like his language is different than the typical coach speak or football speak or whatever. So I think people would get a real kick out of him. To me, he's the one that has just unlimited potential. Having done a bunch of Pat's games, what's your projection for Tom Brady, the announcer? You know, it's really hard to know. I mean, my gut is he's going to be unbelievable. He's had, he knows everything. I mean, you can tell that just watching the play.

You know, how willing will he be to get his hands dirty? That's the part you don't know. Because the immediate thing that you realize being a broadcaster, at least after the first year or two, you know, you kind of get a little, you got a lot of friends in the league still the first year. or two is that you kind of go from being one of them to Benedict Arnold, now you're critiquing them. And that stinks. It stung for my old teammates. But for me, I was either going to be in it or I was going to be out of it. And I decided I was going to take it seriously.

I had a family to feed. I was going to try to make a living doing that. And I was still in law school while I was broadcasting. So, you know, and I had plenty of Socratic method coming at me in law school. And I probably gave it right back on the football broadcast. So I was never afraid of being honest with what I thought. I think we were all pushed a little too far into having to be critical. And I'm glad that's backed off a little bit. It's more fun.

It's more fun doing the broadcast now when you can criticize without having to be mean-spirited about it. I like that. In terms of the Benedict Arnold treatment, did you get it in a phone call after a broadcast or being shunned when you went to the team facility the next time? All of the above. And I was on inside the NFL banging away at players there too, where the expectation was even higher to be critical. because you got four or five points and you're with Nick Bonacani and Lynn Dawson.

And it was kind of the midweek show. It was really the only one at the time. And it was the first show that had the sound, you know, where you could hear what the players were saying on the sideline. So it was a big deal at one time, you know, when we were doing it just because it was so unique. I heard you say in your podcast that NFL players who are at the end of their careers, and are thinking about becoming announcers, we'll call you up. What kinds of things do they ask you? For the most part, they want to know about the time commitment.

And I freak them out a little bit because I think it's fair for them to know, you know. And honestly, that was the thing that surprised me the most about Brady was that, you know, he wanted to go spend time with his family. And I was like, not in this job, you're not. you know, at least if you're doing it the right way because, and I told Peyton Manning this too, Tom never called, so I never talked to him. But, you know, it's a seven-day-a-week job, and then you're working, you're gone the whole weekend. So it's quite a bit like playing, you know, because you get the game playing if you're a quarterback on Tuesday.

You get a little bit of time on Monday to see your family, and then that's kind of it for the week. eat. And my wife has a sign in their kitchen, you know, this marriage is interrupted by football season. And, you know, it's just about, that's about the way it is. So he'll either really like it and be willing to be a little bit of that Benedict Arnold and say what he really thinks or it'll make him uncomfortable, you know, like I would have thought Bill Walsh would have been the greatest color commentator of all time because, hey, he was brilliant. He knew everything. He had a great personality.

He understood everything that happened on the field. And yet it just never, you know, so it's hard to tell. And we've seen great quarterbacks that weren't great announcers. We've seen, and yet so much of the game is built around the quarterback now. You know, it's quarterback, quarterback, quarterback. Everybody knows the quarterbacks. And so I'm kind of the last of the, I'm the last. of a kind here is a non-quarterback.

Have you gotten more calls from ex-player since the price of being a number one NFL announcer went through the roof? You know, I think it kind of, it happened so fast. And it was sort of the last job that was filled in that situation. So, no, I didn't get a, I didn't get a lot of calls after that because there wasn't, there wasn't another job opening. But believe me, a lot more people are. thinking about being broadcasters than ever did before.

But for the people who think it's going to be a nice halfway step out of retirement, most of them are in for a rude awakening. Last one for you, Chris. How do you answer the question? What is an announcer worth? Well, if you're going to pay $2 billion for NFL rights, are you willing to spend you know i don't know i don't know point one percent of it on announcers or i you know whatever the math is i don't

you know what the math is on that i don't get used to dealing in billions too many times but you know we're the forward-facing part of the product and as great as fred godelli and drew essek off are they'll tell you that you know the most significant part of whether or not people like the broadcast or not is what they think of the announcers. And when you've been doing it a long time, you've made a few friends and you made a lot of enemies along the way. So it's a, it's a great job. It's a really interesting job. Um, but you, you do create, you do create a little separation in there. And maybe that's a good thing. And it's like, like I always want to open every meeting with, hey, I want to have an open and honest dialogue and conversation with you, coach.

But if I think you do something wrong in the game, I'm going to say it, you know, and just because we have a relationship or we went out to dinner or you told me a joke or you told me some insight, doesn't matter. I'm going to, I work for the viewers. I don't work for NBC. I don't work for the teams. I don't work for the coaches. I don't, you know, I don't even really. work for the fans because the fans want you to be something in particular for their team. I work for the 20 to 25 million people or 120 billion people that watch the Super Bowl. I work for them. And if at the end of it, they're keeping me around, then that's a good thing. Chris Collinsworth. Thanks for coming on the press box.

Ryan, enjoyed it, man. Always do. And now it's time for the second weekly edition of David Shumman. her guesses, the strained pun headline. Yeah. Today's headline comes from, I don't know. I pulled this, David, when somebody sent it to us several weeks ago, but I neglected to jot down their name. And I looked for it in our DMs.

I looked for it in our mentions. I can't find it. So if this is your headline, please come forward and claim it. It is from the Minneapolis Star Tribune. It's about a couple that loves miniature golf. golf. There's nothing miniature about the role that mini golf plays in the lives of Tom Loftus and Robin Schwartzman.

Richard Chin reports the Minneapolis couple had their first date at the Big Stone mini golf course. Dot, dot, dot, dot, where they later married. Every anniversary, they play a round of golf there. All right, we got a couple that loves miniature golf. What was the Minneapolis Star Tribune's strained? pun headline. You haven't said putt putt at any point in the past five minutes. Is put putt putt, does that mean putt putt putt is in the, is in the pun?

No. Oh, got it. I think they're playing off-brand minigolf. Oh, okay. Or locally owned mini golf. Let's put it that way. The, is it something with like the putter patter of, no, that's little feet. Make my heart go putter-patter-patter?

When they're expecting, we can do the putter-patter of little feet. Uh, the, uh, uh, a hole in one, a club, club, club, two of clubs, two of hearts, two of, um, what if I told you the word course was in there? We're looking for golf puns here. Course. That's about a couple.

The main course, the main, the, the court. Two, two people, two people. Pair. Uh, uh. Oh. Pair. Pair for the... Oh, pair for the course.

Oh, yeah, that's great. Pair for the course. He is David Shoemaker on Brian Curtis. Production Magic by Erica Servantes. We are back Monday with more lukewarm takes about the media. See you then, David. See you later, Brian.