The Press Box - David Lowery on Directing Robert Redford's Final Film, 'The Old Man and the Gun' | The Big Picture (Ep. 532)

Episode Date: September 28, 2018

Ringer Editor-in-Chief Sean Fennessey is rejoined by filmmaker David Lowery to discuss his new movie 'The Old Man and the Gun,' directing Robert Redford in his final performance, and his knack for crafting modern-day fables. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly. Here's what Ringer content you should be looking out for before the end of the week. From The Star of Slow Newsday, check out Kevin Clark's new video series, Worst Picks of the Week, where he offers up the worst NFL and pop culture beds each week. This will be up every Thursday throughout the NFL season, and you can watch on YouTube, Facebook, or Twitter. Also, up on the site, we have two pieces on The Good Place, and Juliet Lippman is writing about the 20-year anniversary of Felicity. Check it out on the ringer.com. You know, he says never say never, and I'm glad he's saying. that he definitely wants to focus to be on the movie and not on his retirement, but if he is going to hang up his hat, I'm glad that he's happy enough with this film to feel like this was

the film that could go out on. I'm Sean Fennessey, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is the big picture, a conversation show with some of the most interesting filmmakers in the world. Today's guest is a maker of fables. From Ain't Them Body Saints to Pete's Dragon to last year's supernatural drama, a ghost story, David Lowry is one of our foremost fairy tale tellers. His new movie is a true story, but it's also a fable of its own. It's called The Old Man in the Gun, and it's based on the journalist David Grand's Chronicle of Forrest Tucker, a bank robber and prison escape artist who plied his trade well into his 70s. The old man in the story's title is played by the great Robert Redford, and what he says is his final on-screen performance,

capping one of the great careers in Hollywood history. David Lowry came by this week to talk about sending off Redford, finding the fiction and a true story, and what great movie star he wants to work with next. Here's David Lowry. I'm delighted to be joined to be joined. I'm delighted to be by the first return guest since we launched this show in January 2017. It's David Lowry. David, thanks for coming back. It's great to be back. David, you got a new film. It's wonderful. I loved it. It's called The Old Man in the Gun. Where did this story come from for you? It was sent to me by Robert Redford's producing partner as a potential starring vehicle for him. And he had seen this film I made called Ain't the Body Saints. And he was interested in whether I might have a take on an adaptation

of this article. And so I, you know, you get a call asking if Robert Redford, you know, it might be of interest to you as an actor to work with. You say yes. And so I read the article and it just felt like the quintessential Redford role, you know, just reading it. It was, the article is too good to be true. It's one of those stories that just, you know, I couldn't believe it hadn't already been made into a movie. It felt like a film reading it. And it felt like a role that he was born to play. So it was just an easy yes for me. Had you, were you familiar with David Grand's work, the writer of the story? Did you know that book that it was adapted from?

I was familiar with him from Lost City of Z, which I loved. And I'd read a couple other pieces, but I didn't know him as well as I know him now. And now I wait, you know, with bated breath for his new pieces. But at the time, I was just kind of putting the, you know, connecting the dots, thinking like, oh, this is by this guy who wrote this other piece that I really like. And so that was, you know, it was exciting, but now looking back, I'm like, oh, it was really lucky to get a chance to grab this one. Had Redford optioned the story? Is that why he was having it go around?

Yeah, he was involved in option. I can't remember exactly the chain of connections that led to him having it. But it was definitely something that he had read. I think he was aware of Forrest Tucker before the article even, you know, back when he was making headlines in his heyday. And he probably had filed it away as a character that he might want to play someday. What was the challenge of it for you? Why this movie next after the handful of films that you've previously done?

Well, it was weird because I signed on to this immediately after the Body of Saints played at Sundance. And so there was like a very clear connection there. Bank robbers, Texas, outlaws, mythology of the Old West, all of those things made sense. But then I made Pete's Dragon. And then Old Man the Gun was supposed to happen right afterwards, but it pushed a little bit. And so I made a ghost story. And so I changed a lot over the course of the four years between getting the job and the time we actually started shooting. And what was important to me about the story evolved as well.

Initially, I wanted to make a really great outlaw movie starring Robert Redford. By the time I got around to shooting it, I was not as interested in making a true crime film. I wanted to honor this character and the story and David Grand's journalism. but I definitely had realized by that point that the type of thing I'm good at is not telling a nuts and bolts cops and robbers film. I love those movies. I love the genre. I will watch Michael Mann movies all day long until the day I die, but I couldn't make one for the life of me because it's just not my skill set.

And so I really had to do a lot of digging to figure out what it was that appealed to me about it. Like, why did I want to hang on to this movie? Why couldn't I let it go? And the answer was that I wanted to make a Robert Redford movie. I wanted to make a movie that in some ways was about him. He is an actor who has always been in the public eye and on screen and outlaw. He's always been an iconic class. He's always done things in his own way and gone up against institutions.

And I think that's one of the reasons he is the star that he is. And I wanted to make a film that harnished that and utilized it and gave him a great role to dig into, but also took advantage of all the history and the weight that he brings with him. I want to talk a little bit more about Redford, but you said that you changed a bit in the time between this film, your first film and, I guess your second film in this film. And also that you figured out what you were good at. So I'm curious how you changed and then what you also figured out about your filmmaking and the kinds of films that you're better at making. I'm really good at narrowing my focus. You know, the early drafts of this film covered decades and really tried to represent the full scope of Forrest Tucker's life.

And I realized that's very often not the type of movie I want to go see. Citizen Kane does it really well, but I can't think of that many other films that really can encompass an entire life. And so I needed to, you know, I learned that I'm good at focusing on something and really kind of digging into as minimal amount of content as I possibly can and exploring that. Like exploding a single moment is really exciting to me, but trying to capture a cascade of moments is less interesting. So that was one thing. And then I also just, I realize that I'm, I'm always drawn to fairy tales, to fantasy, to things that are just slightly set apart from reality. Maybe that seems surprising given the movies I've made, but when I look at all of them, they all feel like that. Like Ain't the Body Saints was meant to feel like a Western fairy tale. Pete's Dragon obviously has that quality.

A ghost story does as well. And so when I lean into mythology and myth making, it's really with a capital M. I'm looking for the slight. less tied to reality version of these stories. I want to tap into some ethos that is just slightly separated from the real world around us. And it took me a little while to realize that. But as I made these movies, I realized that's what I was always drawn to. And as a filmmaker, I mean, as a film goer, I'm drawn to those as well. I really love, you know, haunted house movies. I love fantasy films. I love Guillermo Datorre movies. Tim Burton. Those were things that really spoke to me when I was really young. And I realized that I'm just doing my own version of that type of movie now.

It's interesting when I was watching the movie I wrote down in all caps, fable. You know, that was the word with word that kept coming across my mind. In the last two films that you've made, this sort of ethereal, existentialist story, and then a story about a dragon, you know, those are obviously also reasonable fables. This movie is based on journalism. It's based on a true person who lived. Was it important to you to reflect the truth as much as you could? How much of that were you kind of bending and pulling at?

I bent and pulled it a lot. And I, at the same time, felt a certain degree. of responsibility because I was representing someone's true story. And I did a little bit of journalism. I talked to some folks who were involved in the real case, and especially the real John Hunt, who was very instrumental in my research and getting a sense of what not only that particular case was like, but also what it was like to be a cop in 1981. And at the same time, I also, you know, knew that Forrest Tucker was someone

who self-mythologized a lot. And you read the article and you see that loud and clear. He saw himself as an outlaw not in the tradition of Dillinger or Pretty Boy Floyd, but as the versions of Dillinger and Pretty Boy Floyd that he saw in the movies, the actors playing them. And so I felt that if I could make this movie

the version of the movie that he saw in his head, not only would that be more accurate to the version that he would have been happy with and not only would that be the best version for Robert Redford to play but it also allowed me to be a little bit more fast and loose with the facts

and not feel guilty about that. So I just embraced that. I embraced that more, as you use the term fable, the more fabulous version of this story and that felt right to me. Tell me about directing Red Because he, obviously, a huge figure in the film industry, Sundance, everything we know of him.

But also a writer, a filmmaker, an iconic movie star. Are you doing a lot in the moment, especially since he and his people brought the project to you? Does he have this defined vision of what he's doing? Or are you able to shape everything and say, do this? I think he has some perspective on it that it's already predefined, especially with this project, because it was something he'd been wanting to do. But at the same time, I learned this on Pete's Dragon. When he comes to set as an actor, he is there to act.

He has his ideas and he has the things he wants to try out, but he is 100% willing to let a director shape his performance. And that was an enormous gift to me because not only on Pete's Dragon was I directing him for the first time, but it was the first time I had worked with anyone of his stature. It was first time working with a legend, and I was very, very nervous. And it was so nice of him to just put me at ease so quickly and to let me direct him. and to take that direction. And every now and then he would remind me that,

like there was one instance that was very instructive in which we did a take of, I can't remember what scene it was, but we did a take. And on take two, I asked him to do it a little bit differently and to try something out. And he said, I did that already.

You just weren't paying attention. But nonetheless, he did it. You know, he was a good actor. He took my instruction. And that night I went home and watched the dailies. And sure enough, he had done exactly that on take one. And it was a great reminder that he's been doing this for a long time. He knows what he's doing.

And then it was my job not only to give him direction, but to pay attention to what he's doing. And it was a beautiful little moment where I just like, oh, yeah, I need to focus more. I need to like pay attention and to give that to him because he's giving so much to me. But, you know, he loves staying in his lane. He loves letting me be the director and to not have to worry about that type of thing. He didn't worry about where the camera was. He didn't worry about, you know, he knew what. we were shooting each day. He knew his lines, but he wasn't really too concerned with the way in

which we were telling the story on a formal level. One time I caught him like off in the corner of the room looking over the storyboards, but I think that was just, you know, he was just curious how many shots we had left that day. That's funny. What's your quintessential Redford? What's your favorite performance of his? That's really tough. I always say that my favorite film of his is downhill racer. And so as a result, I probably would just go to that as my favorite Redford performance. One of the things I love about that is so many of those iconic moments, like the one with the gum, or when he honks the horn, That was just him improvising on set. And it really defined for me his character,

not only his character, but also him as an actor. And those were the things that I was excited about playing with and he old man the gun. And to find out that that was just all him was really, really thrilling. That's so interesting because his character in downhill race are such a bastard. It's horrible, yeah. And this character is obviously a criminal, but he's incredibly charming. There's so much self-knowledge of Redford doing the movie star thing

where every time he's in the frame, you're like, goddamn, this guy's cool, you know? It's sort of the flip of downhill racing. We're downhill racers all rough edges, but that charm is still there. Here we've got the charm, and I wanted to make sure that we didn't completely sand down the edges completely. That we had a little bit of that roughness that made that character so terrible still shine through because, you know, he did hurt people. He did break hearts.

He did point a gun at people and steal their money. So he wasn't like the greatest guy in the world by any means, but he did, I think, have like a gentlemanly spirit, and he didn't see himself as a villain by any means. That's interesting. So how do you pick projects now? your last three films in particular are about as different as you can have, even though they're thematically kind of bound, the structure of them, the shape of them, I suspect the budgets of them are all different. So how are you going about kind of setting the arc of your own career at this

stage? I don't think about it too much. Like I, for better or worse, I'm not very careerist when I'm thinking about the movies I'm choosing. It does come into play sometimes. You want to make movies that people go see and you want to, you want to be able to get the budgets that you need to tell the stories that you want to tell. But I also don't really look at things in terms of do I want to make a studio movie? Do I want to make an indie movie? I never think in that capacity. I think about the types of movies I'm interested in and then I just try to execute them the best way possible. And when something like Pete's Dragon comes in my way, it fit a box of something I wanted to do. I wanted to make a family film. I wanted to make a fantasy film. And I was given the license

to do that because we had a title that, you know, Disney wanted to exploit. Their idea there was like, make an original film, just use the title Pete's Dragon. And so these opportunities that come my way like that give me the chance to, you know, tell stories on a larger canvas that I might not have been able to on a budget like Old Man the Gun or Ghost Story. But to me, they're not left turns. They are just, you know, they are movies that I just want to make. And so even though my body of work has a degree of unpredictability to it, it doesn't feel that way for me.

If you're looking at it from the outside, I'm always like, this probably feels really strange and surprising. If I were to announce tomorrow that I was going to do a musical, I could easily go back to saying, well, actually, the first movie, the first, you know,

I made Aint to Bic Saints because I really wanted a chance to make Limiz the movie and Tom Hooper beat me to it. And so it all makes sense, but from an outside perspective, that would totally feel like where did that come from.

Yeah, the level of unpredictability is fun, though. It's fun to see kind of what you're working on. Are you working on something right now? Yeah, I've got, a movie, I don't want to talk too much about it because it's, you know, I don't want to jinx it, but I've got a movie that is probably like another left turn, but is something I'm really excited about. And it's, you know, I guess you could say it's in the spirit of a ghost story, but it's on a much bigger scale.

And I'm shocked that we might get the chance to go make it. Okay, that's tantalizing. Hopefully that happens soon. And then I've got another Disney movie that I want to make. And I've been working on a script with them for a couple of years. and I think we're finally at a point where we all are in agreement that it's at the right stage. It still needs a little bit of work, but I'm happy to do that work. And it's at a point now where I feel like I'm ready to make it.

Let's take a quick break from my conversation with David Lowry to hear a word from our sponsor. This week's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Miller Light. Summer may be over, but it is still very hot in California right now, and so there's nothing more refreshing than a cool Miller Light. Miller Light is the great-tasting light beer, with only 96 calories and 3.2 grams of carbs, That's fewer calories and half the carbs of Bud Light. So there's really nothing more to talk about. If you have a real argument, let me hear it.

Until then, stick with Miller Light. Miller Light, hold true. Okay, now back to my conversation with David Lowry. One thing that I end up thinking about because of what I do is sort of like the narrativeizing that comes with every film movie. You've had a few now where there's kind of an interesting story to tell. One of the things that has emerged about this one is that Redford is retiring from film acting. Is that something that you knew when you guys were making this movie, that this was. going to be his final performance more than likely?

He announced that in an interview a few weeks or a few months before we started shooting. We were in prep and it was news to me. That had never come up. I got a lot of text messages all of a sudden was like, what's going on? Like, did you know about this? And the answer was no. I had no idea.

I definitely felt a sense of pressure that hadn't been there before, but I also knew that I had to ignore that pressure. I couldn't let that influence the choices we were making. This movie certainly was meant to feel like a spiritual successor to some of his earliest classics. And it was perhaps meant to have a sort of book-in feel, but it wasn't meant to be the last

will and testament of Robert Redford on screen. And I didn't want it to become that. So I just never thought about it. Do you have conversations that are like that? Will he say to you, I feel like this could be a great book end of my career, or is it never that literal? No, it's never that literal. I mean, he definitely liked this project because it had, it was in conversation with those earlier roles. He certainly saw that and he felt that this was a continuation of some of the things he'd done early in his career. He hadn't played a literal outlaw in quite a few years at this point. So I think it was exciting for him to just step back into those shoes. But we never talked about with any sense of finality. There was one time on set where, you know, the scene where he's

riding a horse in the movie, which is about as quintessential Robert Redford movie as a scene as you can get. afterwards I said you know if you stick to your plans you're never going to have to ride a horse on screen again and I could tell like that was like probably the first time he thought about that throughout the entire production maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm reading into it but just felt like that kind of caught him by surprise and you could you know I guess saw him think about him be like huh yeah you're right but it was by and large not on our minds until now you know he's talked about it again and and I you know he says never say never and I'm glad he's saying that he definitely wants to focus on the to be on the movie and not on his retirement but

if he is going to hang up his hat, I'm glad that he's happy enough with this film to feel like it's, you know, this was the film that could go out on. You get a pretty iconic shot of him on that horse in that final I want to give anything away, but let's talk about the filmmaking a little bit because one of my favorite parts about it is the music in the movie,

which is very insistent and even more so I think than your other movies. There's a lot of, it's almost jazzy, it's very propulsive, yeah. So why that decision to put all the music in the film? You know, we cut the movie, without any music at all. That's always my approach is like you don't use temp score until unless you have to.

I got a certain point on Pete's Dragon we had to use Tim score because we didn't have our finished one yet and we had to do a test screening. So you sometimes have to but it's important to me to find the internal rhythm of the film. To use the film itself as your meter and to really listen to that pace that's coming through as you're editing it

rather than just slather with music from the get-go and use it as a crutch. I wanted something percussive in the movie I wanted the movie to sound fun and to have like that that spirit that you get from like a classic like Henry Mancini score or what Miles Davis

has done it did for Elevator to the Gallows and it still has a mournful quality in that film for sure but it's got this this pace to it that sort of makes you just prick up your ears a little bit and it was also something new you know Daniel Hart who's done all of my films he's never done anything that's jazz

influenced and I certainly haven't and we just wanted to push outside of our comfort zone in every way with this movie. And that went from, you know, the music all the way to the production design to the number of takes I was doing.

I was always trying to just push myself outside my comfort zone with this movie to see what happened. And so we just, you know, tried jazz and it felt right. It had an upbeat quality to it, but also when it got meditative or soulful, it really just was a different type

than what we've done before. You know, it would have been really easy to just go foxy like we did with Anthony Body Saints, but we just were really, we felt like this needed something different. And so he would just write music. He usually writes music for almost the entire movie.

Like he'll write music for every scene. And then I just sort of try it out in its intended place. And sometimes it works perfectly. Sometimes it needs revision. Sometimes we realize the scene doesn't need music and we pull it out. And other times we just use pieces that are not intended for one spot in another. And you just sort of like listen to it a lot. We just put the music in and listen to it until it feels right.

and we got feeling pretty good, and then the movie had to come out, so we stopped. Yeah, I mean, it works really well, and you have this great needle drop with blues around the game, which is one of the best song. Best songs ever, yeah. What was the thinking with putting that song in the movie? I discovered Jackson C. Frank,

vis-a-vis the Brown Bunny soundtrack. It's in one of those long scenes where Vincent Gallo was driving across the country, and I just loved it, and so I've dug up his record, and I think, like, in the years since, you know, I think that song's been used in TV, a few times, and so it's more

well-known now than it was when I discovered it. It has like a Spotify cult, kind of. I feel like a lot of people are just kind of discovering it on playlists from just having more access to music like that lately. Which is great. I'm glad that he's getting the attention now. Jackson's your Frank's story is like a, I think there's a documentary coming out about him

in fact, called Blues Run the Game, because his story is so sad. But in any case, that song was always part of the movie. From the very first draft onward, it was always written into the script. And it was just an intrinsic part of the film to me. It just felt like the character of Forrest Tucker. It had

the yearning, the aspirational quality, and also the sadness that I felt the true character really would have had. Less so the character in the movie, but the character in real life had this sadness to him both objectively and subjectively, and

I felt that the song allowed us to get into that zone, even though for the most part, you know, the character remains upbeat and unflappable. It was really, you know, one of things that I was ready to walk away from the movie from if we couldn't get that song. So it was always a part of it. Wow. Is it the first time you've done that? Do you often put specific records?

No, I never do needle drops. All my movies have had songs in them, but they've been written specifically for the film. Like Pete's Dragon had Will Oldham and St. Vincent and St. Vincent and all of those pieces of music were written for the movie, or at least covers. Like St. Vincent did a cover for us. And so in this case, I wanted to lean a little bit more on needle drops and to have those moments where you hear a song that you know and you get that that delicious satisfaction when a song you really like shows up while watching a movie that you're also enjoying and so of course the kinks did that you know having scott walker in there does that for me i love hearing scott walker in a movie and and then blues run the game which is the the real capper do you also

watch movies before you start making something and say i want to capture the feeling of this or show it to your casting crew or is it outside of the realm of previous work we don't know we don't really do like cast and crew screenings. I always love that idea, but I've also, it's always been hard. We haven't had those Tarantino budgets yet where we can rent out a movie theater and show everybody, every weekend

we watch a new print together. I'd love to do that. That'd be a dream. But, you know, I watch a lot of movies. I'm always watching movies. I watch movies constantly. And while we're in production, I like make a point, like, if I don't watch a movie every weekend, I'm doing something wrong. I just need to keep that you know, that love of cinema

alive while you're going through the of creating it. And so there were things that I would recommend our crew take a look at, particular production design and cinematography. Like those departments really had a list of movies that I was suggesting. One movie I haven't talked about a lot, but that I know was a big influence for Joe Anderson, RDP, was Sugar Land Express. There's a couple direct nods to that, but nonetheless, the quality of that

cinematography was something that we were really looking for with. this. You can see that in the car chases for sure. Totally. Yeah. Completely. I mean,

when you have a long line of cop cars, that's totally just Sugar Land Express all the way. It was in Pete's Dragon, too. For production design, I remember recommending that Scott Cusio

look at Playtime, the Jacques Tati movie. Because we were trying to figure out, how do we make these banks look distinctive? How do we do something that's not just a functional bank, but that has, like,

bank with a capital B. They're slightly removed from reality. And so the office building and Playtime felt like a nice, a nice touchstone and that informed the costume design as well because you get that kind of monochrome gray

that just runs through that entire sequence and that movie, that entire movie. So would you just go and scout unusually shaped buildings and then convert them into banks? Because there are some unlikely storefronts that represent the banks in the movie. Most of them are actually banks. Like we were shot, you know, the banks are

a mixture of Cincinnati, Waco, Texas, and Fort Worth, Texas. So I think the vast majority of them are in Fort Worth, Texas. but the one, the rainy day robbery, the big set piece robbery, that was in Cincinnati, or actually outside Cincinnati in this town called Bethel, Ohio. And we had been looking at, you know, a lot of like more, you know, western-y-looking banks, and that one just felt so 80s.

It just felt like an office building. It had this sort of like brutalist glass structure. I don't know if you can be brutalist and still have that much glass, but nonetheless, that's what it felt like to us. And it was all gray and silver, and it was also, It had been a bank, but it hadn't been used in a number of years, so we were able to just take it over and treat it like a sound stage. We were always looking for like interesting looking banks, but they weren't hard to find. It was like interesting how easy it was to find like these really cool old things that looked from the front like a, you know, a Masonic temple, but was in fact a bank or things like that.

Yeah, they're like geometric sculptures or something. Yeah, very few of them were not banks. There was one that was a hospital. in Fort Worth, and there was, I think, a couple exteriors that weren't actually banks. But by and large, they were all real. And we kind of like went through every possible bank in Cincinnati and across the river in Kentucky that we could possibly find. And then in Fort Worth, I think in the downtown Fort Worth area, we shot in every possible bank that we could find there. Just to really run the gamut of banks for all these montages and sequences.

But that was a fun part of the process, like going out and just looking at them all and finding them. Tell me a little bit about the cast, because aside from Redford and Casey Affleck, we've now worked with on several films in a row, there's a lot of very famous people in this movie. I haven't seen Tom Waits in a long time. It's very cool to see Tom Waits. Danny Glover, Sissy Spacec, of course. It's a really wonderful cast, and they're relatively small parts. So how did you put this group together?

Sissy was someone who I wrote the script for before I knew her. I just was thinking, like, who would I want to see opposite Robert Redford? who could go toe to toe with him, who would both fall for him but also keep him on his toes. And Sissy just instantly came to mind. I've been such a huge fan of hers for so long that it felt relatively easy to write it for her, even though I hadn't ever met her. Had they been on screen before? I couldn't think of the time.

They barely even met. Wow. Sissy remembers meeting him. Bob does not remember the meeting. It was like in a casting director's office. They crossed paths once in the 60s when they were both doing Michael Ritchie movies, in fact. Unbelievable. Is that prime cut?

Prime cut for her. and he was just finishing. I think Prime Cut was between Downhill Racer and the candidate, so it was right in that period. I sent it to her, and she read it, and I don't think she said yes right away, but nonetheless, I just felt like, okay, this is going to work out. Like, I just knew that she was going to do it,

and it was going to be perfect, and she had wonderful insights into the script. It got better because of her notes, and it's been such a joy just getting to know her as a person, much less work with her as a director. You know, I love just hanging out with her. With Tom and Danny, those parts are like incredibly small. They were even smaller on the page. I really didn't know. There were drafts of the movie that didn't have the over the hill

gang, but I ultimately felt like that's part of the true story. That's what Forrest Tucker was known for. I need to acknowledge them. So I wrote these characters in, and they're based on real names, at least. Those John Waller and Teddy Green were part of the game, and Teddy Green was there on Forrest Tucker's front porch when he was ultimately arrested. But by and large, they're made up. And I really just wanted to cast really great actors who could lend a sense of history to these otherwise very minor parts. I wanted the sense of history that Redford has, even, you know, and they carry that with them wherever they go. So Danny was someone I thought of just because I've always loved him. I think I saw him for the first time when I was really

little and lonesome dove. And then of course, just to follow his, you know, then discovered lethal weapons as everyone does. And then I've really admired what he's done lately in terms of, like making these movies so he can put money into really challenging foreign films, like the Lucretia Martel movies that he's produced, the Apichipong Veracetical movies that I love so much. I love seeing his name and the credits of those as an executive producer. So I've just, he's a hero. I admire him. And I wanted the chance to not only work with him, but again, just talk to him about those movies. And Tom, I mean, what can you say?

Like, it's Tom Waits. I discovered him in Bramstoker's Dracula when I was 10 years old. And from his performances, Renfield in that movie, discovered his music and have been a fan for so long. I didn't think he would do the movie. I was like, let's just send it to him. And it turns out he had seen Anthem Body Saints

and really liked it. And we got on the phone, and in the phone call, he like said he's like, I'm not going to do the movie. I just want to talk to you. about it. And I was like, okay, cool. Like, I just want to talk to you about this. This is great. One of the things he said on that phone call was, you know, he's like, I'm, you know, when talking about why he wasn't going to do the film, he's like, you know, I'm 67 years old,

got to figure out what my next score is. And I was like, I'm going to write that in the script. You know, I'm not taking that completely into the conversation, even with him saying he was going to turn it down, but that for some reason he was going to keep the door open at the same time. And so a few weeks later, I sent him a new draft that just had a little bit more meat down the bones. And ultimately he said yes. And next thing I know, Tom Waits was showing up on set. And I was hanging out in his trailer, and he was talking to me about how he wanted his hair to be as white as Lee Marvin's. And there's nothing I can say other than that was a complete dream come true.

I can't believe I got to just hang out with him. The monologue that he has in the movie was, as far as I know, a 100% true Tom Waits story. Really? Yeah, yeah. That's definitely one of my favorite parts of the movie. It's like, me too. And like, you can't justify that in a narrative level. the movie would not be as good without it.

Totally. You know, like, has nothing to do with the plot. It's one of those moments that you just, like, makes you like the movie more. Absolutely. It's funny. I just saw the new Cohen Brothers film, and he's in that, too,

and I so have this double shot of Tom Waits after having not seen him in a movie for 10 years. I hear he's like, it's just 15 minutes of just Tom Wands. Yeah, it's fantastic. You'll love it. So I guess I'm curious, like, now that you've made all these kinds of movies and you're working on this next kind of film,

what's most important to you? Is it a story that originates with you, or is it something that, you know, this was an adaptation? Pete's Dragon is a kind of an adaptation and imagining. Where do you want the bulk of your creative time to go in the future towards things that you are brainstorming or that are you willing to be for hire as well? I would rather not just be for hire.

Like that's not as interesting to me. I've done a lot of adaptations at this point, more adaptations than not. And I think of the things coming up, one of them technically is an adaptation, and then the Disney movie has definitely got source material behind it. but I treat them as if they were original stories. You know, I have to go into them with that in mind, and I have to find that personal way in.

And if someone was to bring me, you know, if someone had brought me Old Man the Gun without Robert Redford attached, I wouldn't have been interested. It was just like, that's not my cup of tea. It was him that made it really appealing. And so it really just depends on the projects. People send me screenplays, and I always read them,

and I'm always open to doing something that I have not written. But even if I were to find exactly the right script, I think I would just have to retype it all. You know, I'd have to, like, that's my way into the story. And, you know, there are times where, like, I feel like I would like to do something for hire. Like, for example, when I was talking about a ghost story, I kept talking about how much I loved The Conjuring Part 2. And while talking about that, I was like, you know what?

If they offered me the Conjuring Part 3, I probably would do it. And they did. But nonetheless... I think we talked about this last year. Yeah. There are those movies where I feel like I would jump at the chance to just be part of that machine or to just take my hat off as like David Lowry and just be the director for hire and subjectate myself to that willingly.

But by and large, maybe that would be a disaster. I don't know. It would be interesting to find out. It would be I would like to do it as an experiment at some point. But for the time being, I'm approaching everything, whether it's an adaptation or not, as if it's like, as if it's something that's coming from me. Is there another actor or actress on the Robert Redford kind of bucket list that you'd really like to do something with?

Maybe you want to put it in the world? I mean, I really want to work with Brad Pitt. And I feel like it's interesting. I've been thinking about it a lot lately because I've been meeting actors for this new film and while doing press for this one with Robert Redford. So I think a lot about the comparison between movie stars then when he became a movie star and movie stars now. And this is not meant to denigrate any of the wonderful young stars we have now, but I think there's like a sense of arrested adolescence with actors now. Like with the type of

actor that becomes a star, they aren't stars in the way that Redford was. So I feel in a way they need another 20 years before they get to where he is, where he was when he was like 29 or 30. I feel like Brad Pitt now at, you know, in his 50s is where. Redford was when he was in his 30s. And I'd love to go back and watch Spy Game now and just see the two of them, you know, at those two respective points in their careers, see how that feels, whether I'm onto something or not, I don't know. And, of course, now Brad Pitt's at a point where he doesn't really want to act as much

anymore. He's not very choosy with his role. So I don't know if he'll ever, he's not going to hit that point. It's different. The trajectories are different. And with actors who are in their 20s and early 30s now, the expectations are different. The type of thing that people want to see when they go to the movies is different. So I don't know if there are movie stars like Robert Redford who aren't Robert Redford.

But I do really want to work with Brad Pitt, so I'm going to put that out in the universe. That's great. You guys would make a great movie together. David, you said you still watch a lot of movies because you're trying to stay engaged. I end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing that they've seen? So what's the last great thing you've seen? Oh, I have not seen it yet. Tell us about that. It was the one movie I wanted to see the most at Toronto and made a point of like arranging my schedule so that I could go see it. She's one of my favorite filmmakers.

I've just adored her since I think the first film I saw was Bo Travei, or maybe Trouble Every Day, either way. Whichever one was first, I just completely fell for what she does with storytelling, what she does with a camera, the way she finds these strange patterns in the narratives and just leans into those more than the narrative itself. And the affection she has for her character is the tenderness, the sweetness that comes through, even in something like Trouble Every Day, which is absolutely a disgusting, horrifying, cannibal movie. High Life is exactly what I wanted out of a Clarendonese science fiction movie.

I had been told in advance that it was incredibly violent, that it was really ugly, that it was brutal. But it really, I mean, it was in some ways, but it's also very, very tender and very sweet. And I came out of it just thinking like, this is just interstellar with more bodily fluids. It reminded me a lot of interstellar, and I would love to go see a double bill of those two. That's a fantastic answer. David, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Thanks again for listening to this week's episode of The Big Picture. If you want more movies, please check out the rewatchables podcast.

This week, we are exploring the 20th anniversary of dazed and confused, one of the all-time great cast and movie history. So please check that out and check us out next week on The Big Picture.