The Press Box - Democratic Debate Insta-reaction | The Press Box

Episode Date: October 16, 2019

Bryan Curtis and David Shoemaker discuss Elizabeth Warren playing the front-runner, Joe Biden keeping it simple, and Pete Buttigieg having a chance. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello media consumers, Brian Curtis and David Shoemaker of the Ringer here with your instant reaction to the October 15th Democratic debate. David, this was the fourth round of Democratic debates. It took place in the suburbs of Columbus, Ohio. And I think we should cut right to tonight's top story, which is that Senator Elizabeth Warren is the frontrunner in this race. And the reason we can say that is because 11 Democrats on stage treated her that way tonight. and had tacked her that way tonight. First up was Warren's Medicare for all plan. Now, she will not say out loud that it involves raising taxes as part of the plan's attempt to offset that with greater medical savings for the middle class.

Well, tonight, Mayor Pete Buttigieg was the first to pounce on that. Listen to what he said. Tonight, a yes or no question that didn't get a yes or no answer. Look, this is why people here in the Midwest are so frustrated with Washington in general and capital, fill in particular. Your signature, Senator, is to have a plan for everything, except this. No plan has been laid out to explain how a multi-trillion dollar hole in this Medicare for all plan that Senator Warren is putting forward is supposed to get filled in. It was a good line of attack by Pete Buttigieg. And Buttigieg had a really good night, all things considered. But I think in the grand scheme of

things, Elizabeth Warren, uh, withstood a lot of fire tonight, came out looking strong. And the narrative, at least on as, as, as much as it applies to her coming out of this debate is that, uh, she was treated like the frontrunner and she availed herself like, uh, like a, like a, like a triumphant, uh, frontrunner. So I mean, I, I just, a lot of the attacks on her, I thought were well-founded, at least, at least, you know, from, from some of the candidates, a lot of them are a little bit specious, like Tulsi Gabbard and Kamala Harris asking her to agree with them on random. things. But I thought, and I thought for the most part, she was, she was able to sort of deflect

and stay on message. I do think that the Medicare for all one, for no other reason than because her, you know, opposition candidates and, and the moderators of all the debates have chosen to spend an inordinate amount of time on it. I do think this, this argument's going to eventually have some teeth. But as far as tonight went, I thought that she came out looking really good. I agree that it's going to have some teeth, and I think I depart from some of our liberal pals on Twitter when I say that I think it's a totally legitimate question. There's this thinking that if you force Warren to say that she is indeed raising taxes as part of Medicare for all, all she's going to do is give the Trump campaign a soundbite to run over and over again. she's going to give something a bloody piece of meat to Trump's media allies like the ones at Fox News to show over and over again and try to trick people into thinking that oh she's raising taxes she's raising tax she said it she's raising taxes that's it I can cede all of that but at the same time I think why if that's how the plan works why shouldn't she explain that and and why why why why Why should the media give her a pass from just saying, look, I'm going to raise, yes, you're right.

I'm going to raise taxes, but there are so many cost savings that the middle class people will save money. Why is that so hard to do? And I'm not sure. I think maybe it was Matt Iglesias to pointing this out. I'm not sure why you don't just deflect straight to employers, too. I mean, they're the ones that are going to have this huge windfall, not having to cover insurance for their employees, right? So let's just like take that money straight from their pockets. I mean, at least that's the argument you could make.

And it was also from the Voxaverse. Ezra Klein himself made the, I thought, the really smart point that the biggest difference tonight between Sanders and Warren was that Sanders had the, you know, had the audacity, I guess, to straight up say, you know, if we want to build a bigger social safety net, we got to say that we got to make the argument that raising taxes is worth it, right? It's not just a... And I think that whether or not the argument itself, I mean, whether or not she's done enough explaining about where the money's coming from, whether or not raising taxes needs to be said in those specific terms, there are a lot of variables here. All that set aside, I do, I do think there's something to what Ezra Klein is pointing out as far as just the kind of the operational audacity to have, you know, to have the faith in your ideas to make that case, right?

I mean, I think that it almost doesn't matter whether or not the arguments have teeth, as we keep using that turn of phrase, so much as if she's perceived to be ducking them. I mean, ducking the argument, right? And I think that that's something she'll have to watch out for going forward. Absolutely. There was a tweet tonight from Politico's Ryan Liza, and he says, every attack on Warren's so far is subtly and not so subtly about honesty and not policy. This is very similar to how Obama went after Clinton in the fall of 2007,

of character instead of white papers. And that's the danger here for her. She's trying to deny Trump and his media allies a sound bite. But then Pete Buttigieg or even Amy Klobuchar tonight can come in and say, you're not leveling with people, right? You're not saying what we all know is part of your plan. You won't come out and say it. And I'm interested to see how long she can sustain those attacks.

by the way, this is a right-wing talking point. When I was looking for that video that we just played, it came up on America Rising and all these right-wing Twitter randos. They love that, right? That is their thing. But it is a powerful argument to say, if you want to do this, why, if you have taken Bernie, if you essentially adopted Bernie Sanders' health care plan,

why don't you explain it to the American people like Bernie Sanders is doing? Well, I mean, I guess the argument against that would be that, like, Bernie Sanders is, I mean, certainly a legitimate, a serious candidate, but less, but the, but the, but the, but the right is less afraid of him. They're much more afraid of Elizabeth Warren. And so they're much, you know, more inclined to go after her, you know, if she were to do the same thing. But I think in general, you know, if there's been a lesson in this campaign and in the campaign from four, the general campaign from four years ago, and straight through to Biden's primary campaign this time around, it's that, you know, running a general election campaign too early is a rest of. for disaster, you know? I mean, and you have to be, you have to be willing to sort of get in the trenches a little bit and really make the case for yourself, no matter what the polls are telling you. Yeah, and that's, that's the difference, right? Tonight was, I think, the first night where Warren was not only being treated like a frontrunner by everybody else on stage, but she was acting like a frontrunner a lot of the time. She was so good. You talked about how skilled she is

at debating, and I agree with you. I think she came through the night very, very well, considering how much, how many attacks she took. She's so good at her. pivoting to something else, you saw Kamala Harris say, why don't you join me in calling for Trump to be thrown off Twitter? And the j comes back to Warren and she says, why don't, essentially, why don't you join me and saying, we shouldn't take money from tech executives. I'm going to break up big tech. And it's kind of like, oh, oh, and she, she is so skillful at that, better than anybody else on the stage. And she only talks about what she, wants to talk about. And that's why it falls to, you know, somebody like the moderator of the

debate to set that up to essentially set up Pete Buttigieg and set up Klobuchar. And then Biden even later attacked her for vagueness. I also want to take you to this exchange, David, when Vice President Joe Biden got into it with Warren about the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau, which Warren conceived and then helped create from within the Obama administration. Let's listen to that exchange. Let me. She should reference me. I agreed with the. a great job she did. And I went on the floor and got you votes. I got votes for that bill. I convinced people to vote for it. So let's get those things straight, too.

Senator Warren, do you want to respond? I am deeply grateful to President Obama, who fought so hard to make sure that agency was passed into law. And I am deeply grateful to every single person who fought for it. and who helped pass it into law. But understand. You did a hell of a job of your job. Thank you. You know, there have been, if you pay enough attention to, like, political Twitter or political

sub-tweeting from people who seem to know more than they're saying online, there's been a lot of, you know, intimations that these two candidates are not terribly fond of each other in real life, or at least in campaign terms. That was the first time, I think, in any of these debates where it's shown. through at all. And I think that, you know, a lot of people seem to be talking online about how this was going to play on both sides. But for a debate that was sort of in search of a big moment, I think up to that point, it was people had almost kind of settled on the Beto versus Buttigieg on gun control

moment as being the moment of the debate, even though the, you know, actual impact of that is a little bit questionable. That was the real moment. The Biden, the Biden Warren moment that came towards the end that we just played, that was the real moment. And just hearing the sound, you miss the body language, right?

You miss Biden and these really, you know, almost, you know, really choppy gestures when he's saying, I got you those votes. And then when Warren begins to praise Obama, but not Biden, Biden has his job. gigantic smile on his face

looking at the camera like she's not saying my name. She won't give me credit for having her back. And there was a weird thing too where she thanked Obama and then when the crowd started reacting much like we were just reacting, she

sort of waved it off as if she was about to say and also Vice President Biden but then she didn't say and also Vice President Biden. There was like a double hit that some men but somehow she was able to She was able to not look like she was attacking direct. I don't know.

It was a very, very telling, I think, moment. But what exactly it tells us, I think we'll find out more in the coming weeks. I mean, Biden, for his part, and I don't know how hard you want to pivot to this, but I thought Biden was a low-key winner tonight just because he avoided fire. You know, I mean, he was not, he was no longer treated like the frontrunner. and so was able, for the most part, up until that moment, to in relatively low usage, seem, you know, make his case to the audience. But, you know, it did seem like whenever he would like kind of bore down and got into it,

it seemed like there are some echoes of previous debate missteps. I thought he miraculously avoided fire. the debate began with a question about Hunter Biden, which we've heard nothing but Hunter Biden for the last couple of weeks. And it essentially was sort of dealt with in a question and a follow-up that allowed Biden to get his now very familiar soundbite. Trump's going after me because he knows I'll beat him like a drum off. And then we were done with it. And really Biden kind of floated through the rest of the debate.

I do think to his credit, he was a lot better tonight just in terms of performance. in terms of having command. He felt like he'd studied a lot more when he was talking to them about Medicare for all. He actually had facts and figures at his fingertips. He could talk about that. He had one bad moment where he said he was going to eliminate the capital gains tax and then whoops, he would raise the capital gains tax.

But, you know, when he was talking about the Kurds, when he was talking about, he had this line when they asked him about his age. He said, I'm running because of my age, which was a little bit of a twist on Reagan's old. I'm not going to exploit my opponent's youth in an inexperienced. experience. But I just, I think you're right. And I think it was, I think it was partly because he was not in the crosshairs. I think it was partly because he was better. But boy, when he kind of, we turn that corner at the two hour mark. And he said, I'm the only one on the stage who's gotten

stuff done. That was the invitation for then Bernie Sanders to pounds and say, well, here's some other stuff you got done. The Iraq war. And, you know, and then, and once you see Biden mixing it up in that kind of atmosphere, then you're like, oh, maybe he can't hold up. I, I completely agree. agree that I'm the only one to get stuff done thing. It was just such weird overreach, right? I mean, his argument, and like you said, he made the argument prior to that really, really well, and I think really, really well for the first time, at least on a national debate stage. He says, you know, he knows what has to be done.

He's going to be ready on day one, no on the job training necessary. I mean, that is the real case, right? it's not this just sort of, if you're going to make the case for electability, that's exactly the right way to make it. Now, later, in his closing remarks, he said he's running because he has to restore the soul of the country. And I have no, maybe that plays. I don't know. That seems to sort of go in the opposite direction from the real kind of, you know, brass tax vibe that this previous statement got. But you're absolutely right.

when he starts going to the overreach of saying, I'm the only one that got stuff done. And talking about, you know, what he was doing on the floor. There's people already are like fact-checking his role in passing various bills. It just seems so unnecessary because the case is not, I'm the only one who's got stuff done. It's, I was there, I was helping get the stuff done that you guys all like. You know, I was there doing the things that were all building on top of. I mean, there was a point earlier when they were debating health care and he had to like,

elbows way in the conversation to be like, we're all talking about my plan, right? And this is my idea. And whatever, your mileage on that one may vary. But, like, that's the case. I mean, his best argument is, I've been there and I can do this, right? And tonight, you know, he did a fair share of, you know, his old kind of restarting and restating or halfway through a sentence, you worry that he's about to lose the thread. But for the most part, he kept the thread tonight. And I thought he did a pretty good job of, and like I said, in relatively, relatively,

limited usage of making the case for himself until, wow, until that Bernie Sanders moment where, I mean, who knows, I mean, maybe that'll be the moment we talk about tomorrow. But, I mean, that certainly, that and the warm moment combined didn't reflect too well on the vice president tonight. Speaking of Bernie, this was one of the first times we'd seen him since his heart attack. He had two stents inserted to open up an artery. I like this tweet from Tad Friend, stent Bernie is just as forceful, but less harassed. than the old Bernie, I guess.

He had this really scratchy voice at the very beginning of the debate. And I kind of went, oh, no. But after about 30 seconds, that went away. And he looked great, I thought. And I thought he looked just remarkably strong for someone who underwent that procedure recently. And I did think he was, you know, to me, my whole thing with Bernie in the debates is that Bernie's really good when he's mixing it up with people.

but so often he just goes into Bernie speech mode and just sort of gets his, you know, you put, it's like here comes the, you put a quarter in here comes the hit out of the jukebox. But tonight he was, when he was in those speechy kind of modes, he was just better at, I thought being a little more conversational and a little, just just a little more approachable. And then, yeah, and you're right, when he was allowed, when he had moments to, to mix it up with like a Buttigieg or Biden, he was really, really good. Yeah, I think that you make the, I mean, you made all the right points. I thought his performance, just in terms of his performance so recently since his surgery,

was a win on its own, on its own. But I also think that, like, on the merits, this was his best debate. I mean, he, especially the first hour and then came on, then he came on strong again towards the end. But he had a fantastic night. And I think that, I mean, he's got to be, he's got to be. he's got to be happy with the way tonight went. Of course, you know, maybe the biggest moment for him happened during the closing statements tonight when it was when it was leaked or announced that Alexander Ocasio-Cortez would be.

Yeah. Oh, there was an exclusive that I think the Washington Post came out with. That AOC would be endorsing him, I guess, at this upcoming Queens rally that he had made. mention. He had been teasing a mystery guest, and she is going to be a mystery guest. Yeah, he was teasing a mystery guest that, you know, there were a lot of different theories about it. Cardi B was, I think, the leader in the clubhouse, and who knows she might be there, too,

but AOC is definitely the big mystery, the big reveal. But yeah, no, I mean, but I think that that's actually one of the, I mean, incredibly good strategic move, because I think that there's a real question. about how much, if at all, that'll move the needle. But it certainly will take up a lot of oxygen for the next 48 hours. Yeah, and I think, you know, the first thing, right, is to get out there and after a medical scare like that is to just get out there and be Bernie Sanders and show people that you can still be that guy who was going all over the country. The word tireless gets pounded on the ground, but was a tireless advocate for what he believed in. he took the big first big step of that tonight and then yes you're right in queens that'll be the next step

i was i was texting you about this i kind of thought that this debate there were a lot of people had a really good night tonight and i don't know if that was because of the way the moderators handled it and kind of let everything go and didn't pounce on everybody and cut everybody off but it felt to me like most of the field would walk away from tonight with something that something, a performance that they really liked. What did you think of that? Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, listen, I mean, the moderators did cut people off.

They cut people off pretty ruthlessly. But I think more, we didn't hear a lot of over, of, you know, talking over people because they were just jumping subject to subject so quickly. I mean, they had a control over the debate that was, that maybe was more subtle in terms of, you know, just general presentation. But it was pretty firm. And maybe every, maybe more people had to. good night tonight because, you know, they didn't spend a lot of time on the back and forth.

Elizabeth Warren ended up having far and away the most speech time because she was responding to people a lot. But outside of her, there wasn't a lot of backtalk. And I think, you know, what I think it's pretty self-evident that, you know, most politicians have a good first answer. It's only when, you know, you're going to get into the weeds that things start dragging. And maybe that helped a lot of these performances tonight. But you're right. I mean, we talked about Bernie and Warren. And I think, you know, Biden gets a relative, you know, win. But Pete Buttigieg, I think you have to put him in a big win column. I mean, I think there's some question about the delivery, but he had a great night.

And, I mean, talking about the, you know, Dark Horse candidate, I thought Amy Klobuchar had a hell of a night, too. Who knows if any of, if that'll move the needle at all? And, you know, Corey Booker, you know, if you take it for granted that he's running for vice president at this point he had a pretty good night as well so i mean there's there are a lot of good nights to be had let's spend a quick minute on all those people first p bouda judge i thought this was the first time he engaged with the structure of a debate he didn't just make speeches when he was called upon but he actually argued about politics and engaged with other people's ideas that was a difference to me he was all he he would have the first three rounds he'd have these amazing soundbites

but they would get lost because they weren't like responsive to anything else that was going on. Tonight he came ready to debate and I thought and I thought that to me was the difference with him. You know, you had the, you mentioned the sort of back and forth he had a better rock on gun control, but he just, he just seemed like somebody who was like, I am going to come and argue that my ideas are better than your ideas,

which he had not done. Yeah. It's true. I mean, and I think frankly, he's a really compelling speaker, but I think in the context of the debate, the kind of monologing does seem a little bit off-key. I mean, it feels a little bit like a politician playing politician, you know? I mean, it's sort of there, maybe it's evocative of sort of early Bill Clinton almost, but it's not, he doesn't have nearly the same power of persuasion, at least not in the same way. I thought one really interesting that you saw Buttigieg, and actually Klobuchar as well due, specifically in the context of gun control, they were talking about how attainable a ban on assault weapons is, which sort of goes against everything we know, but about the way that the Senate works or that Congress works. But I think that there's, it felt to me like the sort of moderate,

and I'm using that word really loosely, but the moderates that were up there on stage sort of made the conscious decision to make the feasible seem highly plausible. Does that make any sense? And in order to sort of make it sound like they had an idea to sell. Because I think that the real allure of some of the, again, using the term loosely, further left arguments or points of view in the debate is that, well, if we're not getting anything done anyway, then let's talk about health care for all.

You know, like if we're not, if we can't, if we can't get incremental change, then let's go straight to the moon. I mean, it goes straight to pie in the sky, you know? And I, and that is really compelling. and in some ways it's practically compelling. But I think that you saw what Buttigieg tonight came out, like you said, and was able to sort of argue for his points of view without seeming overly cowed by the moment or too dreamy. I mean, I thought that he did a really good job.

Yeah, I mean, with Beto, it was, let's not get distracted by repoing everyone's AK-47s. We have a chance to get universal background checks right now. We have a chance to get an assault weapons ban. let's take this big major half step rather than leaping off the diving board and missing completely. That's essentially Pete Buttigieg's worldview about a lot of things. And you're right. He did articulate that well tonight. And I thought you could say the same thing about Amy Klobuchar as you mentioned.

I really like the way she put it when she got into it with Warren, where she said, your ideas aren't the only ideas. because I think she was, I'm sure, articulating a complaint that she and her campaign have had, which is that Warren just, you know, covered everybody with so many mounds of policy that it seemed like she was the only one who had any policy or any ideas. And Klobuchar sort of neatly sort of, you know, came at that and said, look, I have ideas too. and my ideas aren't any less than your ideas just because you're in this particular position.

Anyway, I thought that was really well done. And again, she's articulating a vision that's pretty similar to Buttigieg. I think that's right. I mean, she also had the line about, again, at Warren, I believe, talking about it was the difference between a plan and a pipe dream, talking about the feasibility of her ideas. You know, I mean, I think that there's,

it's a risky, it's a risky tact only because, I mean, to really make these sort of like turns of phrase the centerpiece of your, of your campaign, because your idea is not the only idea can sound kind of, you know, kind of defensive, you know? I mean, it doesn't, and listen, there's nothing wrong with having a dream when you're a politician. I think that's a pretty easy, you know, counterpoint to what she's saying, you know, not many people were counterpoint. appointing Amy Klobuchar tonight. But, you know, I thought that, I thought that she had a really good night overall. I think it was, it was less about the, you know, the big lines and more about just her presence

and her, just sort of comfort up there on stage. And she was given, you know, she had a lot of time to talk. And I thought, I mean, to me, I mean, she was, like I said, she was the big surprise. I thought that she did really well. And I don't know how much any of this matters. I mean, she, you know, she's one of the few that haven't even qualified for the November debate yet. Well, few. I mean, it's her O'Rourke, who we just mentioned, and then Castro and Gabbard

who were maybe less surprising. But, you know, I think tonight we'll do it, we'll probably help shift Clovichard into the other column. You know what it was for me? It was the first night I watched her and said, I understand why she's a good politician. Yeah, yeah. I had just never been able to see that in a debate before and whether it was just because she was getting used to the format or the moment or whatever it was, but like tonight, I was like, I understand why you get elected over and over I understand the power of this presentation. And, you know, the way she talks, those kind of

jokes she sets up that almost always fall flat. But there was a certain quiet, dignified, you know, fighting for you power to the way she talked. And I thought that was really good. Just to quickly interject, if you're going to tell a bad joke, she had an incredible, like, She has an incredible ability to apologize for a bad joke in this second immediately after making it. Someone, one of the campaign reporters said that she does it. She has a great stick where she'll tell a bad joke. And then when there's like, when the audience just sort of deflate, she'll be, she'll just say, thank you one person. And that'll be like her like, you know, that's her little like comeback line.

That's her please clap. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it was, I mean, she's, she did that once tonight and it was, it was funny. I mean, she's, it, that was maybe my favorite moment of the night for her. But she had a good one. I'll disagree with you a little bit on Cory Booker. I thought what he was saying again,

I thought he's so eloquent. He can be such a powerful speaker. I thought he was a little bit in the Buddha judge zone from previous debates where he wasn't, just wasn't engaging with the format that he was in. Yeah. And I'm watching him and I'm saying like, when you come in,

if your lane is, I'm at a debate, but let's not argue with each other. That's not going to do it. Like, that's just not going to do it. It doesn't mean you have to change your character. It doesn't mean you have to be making slashing attacks against the other candidates.

But I just think you have to understand the format. And the format can't be I'm going to appeal to our better angels whenever I get the mic and encourage Democrats not to attack other Democrats. I don't understand that. Yeah, I mean, I do think that, I mean, I'm going to disagree with myself a little bit. I do think that there's as much risk in starting your vice presidential campaign this early as there is and starting her general election campaign this early because you run the risk of being utterly forgotten or completely bypassed by all the other, you know,

mid-tier to upper mid-tier contenders by the time that that decision actually gets made. Or you get, you know, Tim Cain gets chosen and, you know, all those other candidates get forgotten really quickly. But, but I agree with you. I mean, I think that's an easy case to make. I just think that, well, I think by the high point of Booker's night was his first response when it took, it seemed like 45 minutes for them to get to him. And he just very artfully responded to every question that had been asked up to that point. Yeah, that was very funny. That's the, it was funny, and that was probably the key of it.

But it also showed an incredible command of facts and recall, right? I mean, like, I hardly remember what we talked to, what we've been talking about for the past 30 minutes when he got called on. and he just ticked off a bunch of very good answers, and that was impressive. I think for the rest of the night, you're right. I mean, he was, it was a lot of platitudes and a lot of sort of canned stuff, but. They sounded great.

I mean, I don't, don't get me wrong. It was like, oh, wow, I would perk up when he started talking. But I just didn't think it was really, it wasn't a kind of performance that gets you noticed in this particular stage. I just didn't understand. No, I think to kind of pivot off what you're saying about Clover, which are, this was another, this wasn't the first time,

but this was one of, you know, a number of debate performances where you immediately can see why Cory Booker's a very effective politician. But you could also sort of feel the limits of it a little bit tonight. And I think that his effectiveness was, was on full display,

and anyone that wants to say, well, that didn't really amount to anything of great significance. I mean, there's no real way to argue against that point. Here's someone else I don't understand. Kamala Harris. who's still running like the front runner or top tier candidate she was very briefly months ago or weeks ago.

And then the one moment where she kind of switches gears and you realize she's gearing up to go after Warren, it's about throwing Trump off Twitter. That's the thing. Why won't you join me in calling for Trump to be thrown off Twitter? That was a weird place. to go and I didn't understand what she was trying to do tonight either. She, yeah, it was so weird. It was such an odd moment.

First of all, it doesn't help you at all to be the second person on stage trying to get, trying in vain to get Elizabeth Warren to agree with you on an odd point. But it also, I don't know, I don't know if I'm just dramatically missing the point that she's trying to make, but she certainly didn't do a very good job. of explaining why Twitter's terms of service is the battleground for this great debate about the power of giant tech companies in America right now. You know, I mean, it just seems like just really missing the forest for the trees. And also, I mean, not for nothing, but you're going to have a hard time getting all the journalists

that are following you around the campaign trail to sort of follow you down this path of, like, potential infringement on the First Amendment, just for the sake of political, of, you know, know, dangerous politics. Now, the case that she's making makes them sense, but, you know, I'm not sure. It's just a very weird, well, Hilton Dion is not the right term and not the right phrase, but it's a very weird thing for her to be focusing on like that. When she talked to Biden about busing now many debates ago, that was a moment I said, I understand why you're a good politician.

I understand how you connect with people. I've now, like, over the course of the next three rounds of debates, I've suddenly forgotten why Kamalaurs is a good politician. Yeah, totally. I just don't. I'm watching her, and I'm like, I don't get it. And it's not just because she's sunk in the polls. Again, fine, whatever.

This is hard. We didn't think she was just going to win. But again, I just understand it. I mean, I thought the one thing that, I mean, the one great point that she made tonight, but is not, you know, I don't think she's going to get any points for her. was in the middle of the, or towards the end of the, just exhaustive and exhausting debate about universal health care, raising the issue of women's reproductive rights, which they then sort of announced that they would get too much later in the debate. I'm not quite sure how that's a separate issue than health care in the, you know, that needed to be separated by, you know, 90 minutes of debating about other things.

But she almost, but right then she, I mean, that's a, that was a point that really needed to be made. But I think she missed the opportunity to sort of make it a bigger argument about how we're arguing a whole lot about health care, about taxation, about the way we receive health care in the abstract and not about, you know, these actual issues that are being, that are being, you know, litigated in various ways around us every day. Anyway, I thought that she had, I mean, that, you know, that moment aside, she had a rather underwhelming evening. We'll quickly talk about the rest of the candidates. Like Tulsi Gabbard, who threatened to walk away from this debate, eventually decided she was going to show up. We had heard one report that she was going to, quote, put the field on blast tonight. to the extent she tried to do that, she got derailed by going into this thing

where she was blaming the media, both for its portrayal of her and for apparently starting the Civil War in Syria or fanning the flames of the Civil War in Syria. And then when she dramatically turns to Elizabeth Ward and says, I want to know what your experience is to serve as Commander-in-Chief, a line she has used, by the way, before,

it turns out to be atrocious timing because CNN then throws it to commercial and we never get this dramatic confrontation. Again, this was like a sneaky way that CNN was controlling, you know, keeping control over the debate. Yeah, maybe so. It was a very, I mean, listen, I mean, it was a, Tulsi Gabbard had some memorable moments tonight. And I think that that's kind of all that, you know, all that she could hope for. I don't know. I mean, she certainly seemed confident on the Syria issue. But I don't know that policy-wise, she's going to find many adherents.

I mean, I guess, you know, the getting out of like the never-ending, the endless war argument is a strong. Yeah. That is. Getting out of foreign wars is a strong argument. but the, what was the specific argument that she kept making to get out of the regime change war, another regime change war? She kept saying that over and over again that phrase. It seemed like she was splitting the hair. I mean, she was getting a little bit too precise.

Every, I don't know, every time she repeated a phrase, I felt like I was read, I felt like it was a catchphrase from the dark web or something. Like I was missing, like there was some ulterior motive that I was missing and went everything that she was saying. And I don't know, I have no idea why I kept getting that vibe. But listen, just pivoting off that a little bit, it has to be said that the Syria issue was an enormous gift for the Democrats. And Trump's decision to withdraw troops, I mean, was just, if this whole debate had been about, if more, if all the time that had been dedicated to Syria had been dedicated to the impeachment proceeding or, you know, the impeachment investigation. then I think every Democrat on stage would have come out looking badly tonight. But to be able to actually talk about foreign policy, which it has to be pointed out is one of the few areas in which the president actually has direct power.

If one of these people on stage gets elected, they'll actually have some influence. You know, everybody got to come out looking a little bit more presidential. I don't really know what Tulsi Gabbard's game is. But, you know, she's certainly, like I said, look confident up there. can we agree that Tom Steyer was better than we thought it would be generally sure sure you know if this were a basketball game he didn't score 35 points tonight but in a couple of minutes off the bench he looked generally better i like this line from tom clutt tom steyer with a tie that looks like the blanket in the trunk of every midwesterner's

car tie got a lot he uh but his you know the line about Tom Steyer has been, why are you wasting money on this? And before that, by the way, why were you wasting money on pre-Ukraine impeachment when you could be helping the Democrats win down-ballot races or win state legislatures or things like that? Tonight, I don't know that he offered any rationale that he should be doing this rather than that. But I thought as the billionaire slaying billionaire, he was not terrible. I think that's right I think that

You seem hesitant I don't think it did the Democrats in general any great favor to have a new face who clearly had never done this before up there on stage

but I thought you know in a vacuum yeah he in his limited time he did he availed himself pretty well I think that the question about how he spends his money

is going to follow him around right I mean, I think that I'm sure there's going to be infographics up tomorrow about all the things he could have spent the money if they're not earned already, but all the things he could have spent the money on. And I'm talking about down ballot races. I mean, like, how big of a, you know, cow made of butter could he have bought with the money that he's spent getting himself on that stage tonight? I mean, it's, it's a, it's, it's a, you know, these questions need to be answered. With, without looking, I'm pretty confident that Vox has made an infographic about the way Tom Starr could have spent his money. I'm pretty confident. I want to group.

I think you're probably right. Beto O'Rourke and Julien Castro together for a couple reasons. One is I thought they vanished for long portions of the debate, especially Castro. I didn't, I didn't, I just forgot Beto existed for the first hour. And then Castro came on the screen. I was like, oh, I really forgot you were here for the first hour. And that was not their fault. It was because they just weren't, didn't seem to be called on very much.

Beto, we talked about a little bit with the gun control argument. with Buttigieg. Castro was interesting because he's one of those guys. He doesn't seem to get called on very much, but every time he does, I like what he says. He had a good line about Trump caging kids at the border here in America and then letting ISIS fighters run free in Syria because of the events you just mentioned. He was good on the shooting in our old hometown of Fort Worth this week, the police shooting. I didn't quite get him trying to wait into the George Bush Ellen thing in his closing statement to not think we'd cover that ground tonight. night, but he's one of those guys that just, if his argument is, you know, it's one of those things

like when I was watching the debate tonight, I thought, I almost wish there was a format for this where someone would stick their hand in a fish bowl and pull out two cards. And it would say Julian Castro and Elizabeth Warren. And they would have to debate. Just the two of them. Yeah. I would love to see that. I would love to see that. Or certainly, Castro and Bidener, we could come up with almost any combination. But I just feel in this format, whether it's because he polls relatively low, so they just ask him fewer questions or if it's a style or whatever. I just feel he gets lost.

But again, I like it every time I hear him talk. I mean, I think it's a combination of his polling and, you know, the fact that he doesn't have a, I mean, you know, I think Beto benefited from having this sort of like far out opinion on confiscation of guns because CNN knew they could go to that for. for some interesting back and forth, despite the fact that, like, outside of that opinion, there's very little disagreement on that issue amongst the people on stage. So, I mean, that's the sort of thing that can, you know, spice up a debate,

and I'm sure that the candidates are aware of that. Castro didn't have that one thing. It was, I should say, pretty, I mean, pretty amazing that everybody up there on stage, you know, rush to Twitter to speak to voice outrage over, Tatiana Jefferson's death in Fort Worth and it took an hour and 45 minutes for Julian Castro to bring it up

actually in the debate tonight. I mean, and that's, and that was probably his first opportunity to do so, but then no one else brought it up. It was pretty amazing. But that was a good moment for him, and I think you're right. When he has, you know, the moments that he gets,

he makes the most of. You know, when he was, when he kind of went on the offensive in the previous debates, he did not, it did not help him in the polls at all. To the contrary, you know, his numbers sort of ticked down. And even though I thought that that was an effective use of his time at that point,

I mean, take everything I say, I guess, from now on with a grain of salt. But I thought that, I mean, he's a really compelling politician. He's a really compelling and not just politician. I mean, if that sounds derogatory, he's a compelling speaker. He's a compelling thinker. I'm not quite sure what it would take to really move the needle in his favor at this point or at any point in the process. It doesn't seem like it's going to happen for him.

But you're right. When he got the opportunity, it was, you know, he used to. it. My opinion on Andrew Yang has really changed over the course of these debates. Oh, God. I'm interested to see where this is going to go. I never had, never anything against him, never had any, any, I just thought that he seemed to me to be the kind of person that was here because this, this Democratic primary is an

unprecedented crossover event where we have like 20 people and everybody's on the stage and oh, and here's, here's Andrew gang and he's interesting and he's got interesting ideas and let's talk about the UBI. I think after hearing him tonight, I was like, I want him to run for something that's not running for president. He can continue to run for president, but someday I want him to run for Senate because he just, the more I hear him, the more he makes sense. And he had lots of interesting ideas tonight. And I'm like, that guy should be, if the Democrats are smart, that guy should be a Senate candidate or that guy should be a House candidate. I don't disagree with you tonight.

I disagree with you. Tonight, I thought my biggest takeaway was that the conversation that he spurred on about the UBI, about universal basic income, started to actually feel a little bit like universal health care in, you know, primaries past, where this might actually just sort of be a stalking horse, or it might just be kind of calling the shot for like four, eight years from now. We'll all be talking about UBI in a very serious way, and we'll all remember Andrew Yang. but I don't think it helps him particularly to call it a freedom dividend. I mean, I think this is probably, you know, I'm a little bit biased by his background and his lack of political experience, but it does feel a little bit like a little bit woo-woo or a little bit like, you know, just imaginary when you, when you ascribe these, you know, different terminology to it like that.

But I, you know, I'm not sure that I'm all the way there on like, you know, give this guy's, you know, give this guy a seat in the, in cabinet or something. something, but I, but I, but I, I, I, I do agree with you. I do think that there's more, I think, I think that there's probably more to him than, then, then we're seeing on stage. And I'd be interested to see, you know, what, what, would, the larger scope of ideas, uh, he had were. Yeah. And, and, and I think, like, every one of these I watch, I'm like, he's just a presidential candidate to me now. He's not, you know, it's not somebody, like, oh, here's somebody who came from left field and who's different, he's guys different ideas and I don't know. And there's Marion Williams. He just seems like, and I say this is a compliment. He seems like one of the candidates to me. So I'm, I'm just like, well, why does he run after if he doesn't win the presidency? Why doesn't he, you know, why are the Democrats begging him to go run for something else or do something else within the party? I just think he seems like he's got a lot of great ideas. The, I want to talk to you a little bit about CNN before we get out of here. The moderators tonight were Anderson Cooper, Aaron Burnett, and Mark Lacey, who is the national letter to the New York Times. It was a kind of CNN, New York Times crossover thing. Our

pal Chris Sullen Trump tweets. I'm stunned that the New York Times part of this debate started with a question that has been asked every previous debate. We raised taxes on the middle class to pay for health care and did not bring up climate change. That is, that's interesting. I did like the bit they got to about the health and age of the candidates. Yeah. It was it was really kind of, it was really a category created to ask Bernie Sanders about his heart attack. And we got that funny line about medical marijuana in there from Corey Booker. which Bernie Sanders had to insist that he was not using. But I think, you know, health and age is one of those things that should be taken on and talked about rather than pretending doesn't exist or why isn't being a passive aggressive Julian Castro shot that then he pretends he didn't talk about.

I think that, I mean, I'm very interested in how this is going to progress. A couple of interesting things. I mean, things I noticed on that point. one is, yes, it absolutely should be talked about. A lot of polling shows that voters are very interested in this subject, or at least concerned about this subject, right? But that same polling also shows that they kind of apply the standard very differently to different candidates, right?

That Bernie Sanders is perceived to be, you know, age is perceived to be a bigger problem for Bernie Sanders even before his surgery than it is for other candidates. Biden, I think, is number two. I mean, there's something like 40% of 40-something-something percent think that it's a problem for Sanders, 20-something percent think it's a problem for Biden. Vanishingly small percentage think it's a problem for Elizabeth Warren, who's also 70, but she got dragged into the vortex tonight, right? When they started going down the line and asking if people were too old to serve as president or, you know, whatever roundabout way they asked it, she was the third one on the list. So it'll be interesting to see if she kind of get some of that polling

blowback from that too from being looped in because I don't think that she's widely perceived to be someone in her who is 70 years old, right? I mean, I don't think that that's, no one thinks about her age as being a stumbling block for her. So, I mean, I think that that'll be an interesting one.

But I thought her response to that question was spot on. And I thought that, you know, it's one thing to be like, age isn't an issue, but it's another thing to say, like, I'm going to out work, I'm going to out organize, I'm going to out, you know, everybody else, you know, whoever I'm running against and have it seem like it's a real, I mean, like it's the truth.

And I think with her it comes across really convincingly. But it will be, you know, it is an interesting, it is an interesting, you know, question going forward. I, I, uh, during the debate, I told you that, uh, it was O. Lee Drupman at 538 had this, like, really wild factoid that may mean nothing, but he, but he said, no non-incumbent Democrat over the age of 52 on election day has been elected since Woodrow Wilson in 1912. Amazing. Which, again, I don't know what this means.

I don't know if this is just like a sheer, just like, you know, statistical error or whatever. But that's, it's pretty incredible that we're looking at three 70-year-old Democratic frontrunners. And that, and that's the case. So, you know, I guess we'll see what happens. And I find, I think it's a little unfair for Warren because she's just a smidge in the 70s. so she gets lumped into the septuagenarian zone. And you and I have parents in this zone. There's a big difference between 70 and 80.

That just seems like an important difference. But just because she's ticked over the number, she gets pushed. She's like, oh, well, it's Trump. It's Bernie and it's Elizabeth Warren. And she's like, wait a second. Why am I in this group? If she were 68, I don't think we'd hear one question about her age,

which is really funny. Did you think we're going to get a question about LeBron James tonight. I saw people joking about that on Twitter, but I actually thought, I think if I'd been on, you know, against all odds, I think I would have bet on the LeBron question. Yeah. I think I think that that would have been a good bet. I can't, I can't believe it didn't happen. Uh, the other funny thing. I also think that they, I also think that they could have, I mean, they wouldn't have just been a, you know, a highlight real question. I think that that, that would have been a legitimate question to ask. I mean, it's much more interesting than

some of the other stuff that they spent a lot of time on. As far as, as, as far as, far as getting into the differences between candidates, you know. I'll leave you this with this, David, because I'm sitting here watching CNN on mute, and David Shalian is on CNN. And remember, that's the guy who's not Jeffrey Tubin, but kind of looks like Jeffrey Tubin. And it always just throws me for a loop. So I only have a few more seconds here, I've talked. But at the two and a half hour mark of this debate, we've been through two and a half hours

through all these exchanges, you know, even you and I who are getting paid to watch this were wavering a little bit. And can I tell you that two of the commercials they showed at that mark, these were the products that were plugged. I am not making this up. Number one, Dominican vacations. And number two, atheism.

Okay? Ron Reagan, man. Yeah, after two and a half hours of the Democratic debates, you either want to lie on a beach in Punta Kana or you no longer believe in God. And that's, that is, those are your two. That's what you turn to in times like this.

Anyway, he is David Schuemaker. I'm Brian Curtis. Researched by Chris on Made up Production Magic by Jim Cunningham. We're back with our regular podcast Friday morning with lots and lots of lukewarm takes about the media. See you then, David. See you later, Brian.