The Press Box - Eagles-Cowboys Audio and the Hock Heard Round the World. Plus, a New 25 for '25 With ESPN’s Domonique Foxworth.

Episode Date: September 5, 2025

Hello media consumers! Joel and Bryan discuss some of their many takeaways from the Eagles-Cowboys NFL opener (5:35), and a NFL TV preview covering Mike Tirico's first Super Bowl, the RedZone ad crisis, Tom Brady's second year at FOX, and J.J. Watt moving to the CBS booth (22:44). Then in a new edition of 25 for '25, Joel talks with Domonique Foxworth about the future of player media! They discuss Domonique's career path from player to sports business to sports media, the changing relationship with current players and journalists/media members, the "nerdification" of football coverage, what he has learned about debate shows, and more (40:18). Finally, Bryan and Joel close the show by reconnecting for a brief interview postgame (1:35:37). Hosts: Bryan Curtis and Joel AndersonProducer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Danny Kelly, and it's officially fantasy football season, which means the ringer fantasy football show is back with the latest news from around the NFL and everything you need to get ready for the fantasy football season. So join us at the ringer fantasy football show on Spotify or on our new YouTube channel. Hello and happy NFL season media consumers. Welcome to Press Box. It's the law firm of Curtis Anderson and Crichton here with you. She sounds like a law firm, Joel. Coming up, we got audio from last night's Cowboys Eagles. game. We've got a full-blown TV preview of the NFL season from Tom Brady year two to our national red zone crisis. And in the latest installment of our 25 or 25 series, Joel has an awesome interview with ESPN's Dominique Foxworth about how an ex-player navigates the media world, how sources try to use him to shape a story, and much, much more. But first, let me take it. take you to an institution that doesn't need a spit on opposing quarterbacks because it makes

opposing quarterbacks so scared. They don't even come out of the tunnel. Here's Joel J-School. Yeah, I just wanted to clarify just in case there was any confusion. My mother thinks spitting is one of the worst things in the world and should be criminally liable if you do it. So she sounds like sports Twitter last night. Yeah, well, you know what? If she had a Twitter account, she would have join right in. Her and Jalen Carter go right to jail. Um, so Brian, I was listening, of course, to the most recent episode, as I tend to do, and also Bill's podcast when he had Charles Barkley on. And so we know that Charles is frustrated because he's heard nothing about ESPN and TNT's plans for inside the NBA. We're about a month and change away from the start

of the NBA season. Seems like that's something they ought to figure out, right? Um, And the confusion is over whether inside the NBA will continue with the show after the end of basketball games as has been their custom for years now. And at ESPN, Sports Center is traditionally the network's vehicle for postgame coverage. So I'm just laying out the lay of the land here, right? So that's just the way they've always done things. So, Brian, and you tell me if there's any logistical, contractual, whatever, issue with this. why couldn't inside the NBA do a sort of bastardized version of SportsCenter as part of their post-game programming? Like I'm guessing there's contractual issues at play here, or maybe Charles and Shaq don't want to stay up that late or have to work that hard.

But it just seems to me that that would allow inside the NBA and its fans to keep things relatively the same and sort of introduce a new fun format for SportsCenter. Like couldn't Ernie Johnson handle the top the top three to four stories of the day after wrapping up, of NBA games? This is such a good idea that I'm going to invite ESPN executive Burke Magnus to join us on the Zoom right now. Okay. Can you imagine watching Charles Barkley do a Paul Skeen's highlight? I'm saying.

He has no idea who Paul Skeens is, by the way. Let's just, I mean, you know, it'd be like Charles doesn't quite know who this NBA player is. Just imagine baseball. Oh, my God. I mean, we did some hockey for TNT. So maybe, you know, I know he enjoys gambling a little bit. So maybe there's some, but I think that's a fantastic idea. Yeah.

Like, I just don't like, I mean, they're already wrapping up games. Why not just throw on a few from around the world, you know, in NFL, whatever's happening in the World Series, since it's around that time. And then we can go on with it. I just, I don't know. It seems like it makes the most sense to me. If you remember, inside the NBA was in a wandering the desert phase. after TNT lost the NBA rights, but before TNT leased the show to ESPN.

Right. And there was this idea in the air that they were going to turn it into a general interest sports show. They were just casting around for ideas. And you're talking about that, which made no sense in that context, but you're just talking about like, hey, just turn into Sports Center for a night. Mm-hmm. And by the way, if SVP is in the studio in Washington, setting up the highlights and playing with those guys,

if Rich Eisen, who's going to do a bunch more for ESPN is in L.A., I love it. That sounds great to me. Okay. Thank you for saying that because I was like, is there a reason somebody else hasn't thought of this yet? Because it just, I was like, well, maybe, you know, surely this has come up and I missed it there's some sort of, you know, reason that is obvious that I'm missing that they can't do this.

But it just makes the most sense because everybody wants more inside the NBA. I would think ESPN would want that too. And if you're so tied to the SportsCenter brand, then why not shake it up and have it, you know, the best possible cast to freshen up that format. And Charles complaining about having to do one more baseball highlight. That makes me laugh. Just thinking about it. What if you had Charles coming on talking about Jalen Carter spitting on somebody, you know? All right.

You bring us to topic number one, which is last night's Cowboys Eagles NFL kickoff. For me, Joel, things really got started in the pregame show. Okay. Jason Garrett is back. Can't keep him away. I mean, what's like, is this an experiment? Is this a bet that we can turn Jason Garrett into a compelling? television personality.

I mean, he's got the Ivy League pedigree. He was a Dallas Cowboys figure. I mean, I guess they're just going to keep trying it until we buy it, you know. They were talking about new Cowboys coach Brian Schottenheimer and Garrett was offering some advice about how to be the head coach of a team that is basically a reality show. And he's saying, you know, Jerry and Stephen, look, they're going to be noisy. They're going to be entertaining. And he said, and I'm quoting here. you stay bland, you stay boring.

And I'm sitting there at home thinking, wait a second, Jason Garrett was putting on an act when he was bland and boring. He was trying to hide. Yeah, he wasn't just trying to let his freak flag fly. That wasn't his best Dave Campo impression after all. We got the real Jason Garrett now. Oh my God, my Florio had Garrett on, I want to say it was in the last week, week and a half talking about the bike of Parsons trade.

And he tweeted it out like Jason. Garrett isn't mincing any words. Yeah. And I'm like, Jason Garrett, not mincing words is like the rest of us being in a coma. Oh, man. I mean, he was like, oh, this is a trade really shocked me. I don't know. Come on now.

So if you had to pick between Dallas Cowboy backup quarterbacks, would you rather have Danny White, Babe Laughanburg, or Jason Garrett? These are like hosting football night in America. Yeah, right. I'm going with Babe. Okay, yeah, Babe's good, man. I think Babe would know the assignment. All right, so then we get to the game itself.

We have the opening kickoff, Joel. The Eagles Ben Van Sumeran, poor guy is sitting there on the field because he got a hurt on an opening kick and he's going to be carted off the field. And somehow, in the space created by that event, Jalen Carter, the Eagles' all-world defense, of tackle, walks up and spits on Dak Prescott. Spits. Yeah. Here's Mike Tariko discovering that in real time. So Jalen Carter, the focus and the star for the Cowboys, for the Eagles on the front line, out for the game before a snap. Here he goes. He walks there in front of Dak Prescott. Did he spit? Did he spit on him?

I think he did. There you go. There you go. So, Brian, you remember a few years ago there was this social media joke that the NFL had script writers and everything was already planned out before the games even started. I don't even think experienced TV writers could have scripted out something like this to the start of a season. And I was trying to figure out, like, is this good or bad for the NFL? Before I settled on the idea that it was both.

Like, the games opening sequence had something for everyone, for people who think football, is a barbaric sport that appeals to society's worst instincts, you've got this gruesome injury. And for people that think football brings Americans together unlike any other activity or entertainment, they had this shocking display right as everyone is watching, like the maximum amount of people that have tuned in to watch this game. And it's just like, oh, you get this reminder that the game can be intense, brutal,

and sometimes just shocking. It really was. And if you want to do the heart-rending, who the hell is, Ben Van Someran feature story. That's there too. It's not just a gruesome injury, but it's like, man, here's a guy playing special teams. I hate to be in an NFL roster. I hate to be this guy too, Brian.

But like, so as an NFL fan, you don't want to see anybody get hurt. But I'm sure there's a lot of people like, man, at least it wasn't A.J. Brown, a Sequin Barkley. You know what I mean? That is how people think when they watch football. But then we had a guy who, is that level, maybe even better, get tossed out of the game, disqualified, as the official said. Have you ever been spit on on a football field?

No, man. I mean, I've had people take cheap shots or, you know, call me things out there. But I'm not, I mean, spitting in the street or anywhere is sort of a shocking thing to happen to you. I don't think it's necessarily like a criminal, you know, something, a criminal thing that somebody does against you, but like, no. I mean, has anybody ever spit on you just in life? No. I feel like with my kids, we've had, you know, a couple of like, hey, spitting is not cool.

Right. You have to explain it here. Moments, but an adult has never spit on me. Yeah. We had an emergency meeting of the press box steering committee. I didn't want to bother you because you might be putting kids to bed. I was, but yeah. We met last night during the game.

And we have nominated Jalen Carter as America's softest target. That sounds about right. This was an honor afforded previously to people like Joe Biden and Nico Harrison. People who have no supporters in the media after a particular incident. Jalen Carter, welcome to the club. Explain to him that you need to explain to him with softens. as Target means in case he spits on you. But yeah, I don't want to call Jalen Carter soft.

Yeah, you don't want to call him soft. Make sure he understand. Do you remember when, I mean, spitting is such a shocking incident that I can remember the last time I can remember it happening in a big moment. And it goes all the way back. I had to look it up. 1997 when Bill Romanowski spit on J.J. Stokes on Monday night football. Wow.

Do you remember that? I didn't realize it. It made me feel really old because it was 28 years ago. I thought it was like 18 years ago. Do you know what the punishment was for Bill Romanowski? No clue. $7,500. $5,500.

There were two other spitting incidents that I could find. Reagan Upshaugh spit on Steelers' punter Josh Miller in 2000. $30,000 fine. Reagan Upshaw from USC, Arizona State somewhere. Cal. It was Pac-10. Yeah, he played for the race. And then in 2006, Sean Taylor was ejected from the game and fined 17,000 for spitting in the face of Tampa Bay running back Michael Pittman.

That'd be for people that don't. That'd be the father of Colts wide receiver Michael Pittman Jr. Okay. And Roberto Alamar back in the day, wasn't that a spitting with an umpire? That was right. Oh, man. I do remember that. Yeah.

That was a big deal. That's 1996. Just looked it up. I love America's softest target because it gives all of our sports writer friends a freebie. Oh yeah. Because in that moment, there are no

there's no pro spitting contingent that there's no pro spit Stan army that's going to come out and kill you so you just get to a high horse that baby all the way to the end zone. I demand a suspension. I demand people who were talking about suspending for the whole year last night on Twitter.

Like, are you kidding me? I mean, we have really become so pure. I mean, again, I mean, obviously inflation or whatever, $7,500 for spitting on a Monday night football game 30 years ago, basically. I mean, and we're talking about suspending people. Have we really gotten that soft as a society? Uh-oh. Oh, the manospheres kicking in.

Here we go. I mean, I just, spitting is obviously terrible. You should not do it. Again, as I was raised by a woman who, if you, if you. you spit like she thinks the worst of you. Like she, I'm not, I wasn't even allowed to spit on the ground.

Like she thought it was that, it reflects that poorly upon you as a character. But I mean, come on, man. I mean, stuff out there happens. It's bad.

Like, if, if, if, if Dak had punched him, I'd have been like, yeah, well,

that's kind of what happens. But suspending for games, come on, man. Get out of here. Wasn't it fascinating when they came back from the weather delay and they had the extended footage of the whole incident?

Oh, yeah. And so, Dak, was sitting there in the huddle because again we have not had a play from scrimmage in this game and they were kind of talking

Jalen Carter, Dek Prescott and Dax spits on the ground right and he later said I saw this from Albert Breer that I just had to spit I was like you kind of spit on the ground in a particular direction like you that was a statement spit

right because you're watching it the first time you're like what the hell like why is you're not what is Jalen Carter doing? And to Dak Prescott, of all people, who seems like a nice, nice guy. I mean, Brian, man, you said that.

When you said that last night, I was like, don't forget, I mean, that got his ass beat up at a spring, on a beach of spring break before he got drafted. He might not be, he's out, clearly, everybody doesn't love him like that. But, yeah. Oh, my God. The whole game, it proceeded from there. It was so much pushy shovey.

Yes. It was so Cowboys Eagles. Oh, so great. Wasn't it? in the most 90s kind of way. Yes. Yeah. So that's before the first play from scrimmage.

And then Joel at 822, 822 Eastern. So Loogie Gate is still unfolding in front of our eyes at this very moment. We're all shocked still. Caitlin Clark tweets that she's out for the season. Yeah, man. That's, when you sent that, I was like, what? Are you serious? I said to see like 45 minutes later.

It was like, did you see the mother of all news dumps? I mean, man, do you think she planned that? She was like, oh, this is a good time to go ahead and get that out of that, get out of here now. It seems like, it seems like why would you do that? But then again, it's like really like you were doing this two minutes into the NFL season opener. Yeah. At 820 on a Thursday night. I mean, you have to be trying to bury it.

I mean, I don't know because maybe there's. But you can't bury it like. It's going to come out. You know, yeah. Somebody texted me last night. Can you imagine all those people who bought tickets? Oh, my God. Not just in Indiana, but like road games.

Oh, my God. I saw something about how like the fevers ratings with Kate and Clark for like, you know, I think the average is like $1.8 million. And without her, it's like $800,000. Like they lose a million viewers per game like if she's not playing. So that's a pretty big deal, man. News dump is a really abused term of art. as people on Twitter have begun to become very sophisticated about the media.

Right. This was a news dump. Yeah, they've learned. It was a genuine news dump. Okay, we got a halftime. We come out in the second half. And Melissa Stark, the sideline reporter for NBC, has an interview with Nick Siriani. She talked to Brian Schottnheimer on the field before the half,

then we're going to get the Eagles coach after the half. Here is what Melissa Stark asked Siriano. on defense, what was your message to your guys? Yeah, we can't have any of those. Obviously, we're giving them short fields here. This is a good offense, and we can't help them out at all, so we can't have those. Three touchdowns, no punts on offense. How do you continue that in the second half?

Yeah, we just got to continue doing the fundamental things, blocking, taking care of the football, making good catches. Jaylon's going to do a job, but we have to be ready for them to adjust, and we will as well. Thanks, Nick. Thank you. Excuse me? You know what that would have been a good time to do? Speaking of Jalen's, you know, I mean, somebody gets ejected.

I mean, come on, man. You saw that somebody spit on somebody, did you not? And that's not the first question we're asking Nick Siriani. We're going to do this thing about, hey, do we need to clean up the penalties? I mean, yeah, man. How do you guys going to keep the offense rolling like you were in the first half? You know, like, I don't care about that. I mean, I want to know what you said to Jalen Carter or what he's doing.

doing right now. That was unbelievable to me. Yeah, that was pretty bad. And I know it's again, it's it's an easy tweet and boy do I take advantage of it when you have a terrible question or a non-question to somebody in a moment like that. But I'm like, it's not just us grading you on the journalism scale, the great question scale. It's like NBC right now has the exclusive rights to everything happening on the field. Right. You know this is going to be the number one question in the postgame press conference. Right. You do not want to get this question in to Nick Siriani right now.

You can have it first, clip it, put it on social media, and let it go viral over and over again. Because that's the immediate first, you know, reaction, right? Because by the time he gets to the podium after the game, he's spoken with whatever, you know, the communications director or whatever, and he's had time to think it over and whatever, right? But yeah, like they had exclusive rights to it and they just kind of fumbled it to sick. What's the point if you're not going to ask questions like that? Yeah. Which made me wonder, was there some sort of understanding before this got started? Were they just like, okay, I don't want to talk about Jalen Carter.

And it's like, okay. But then I think you have to say that. I think if that's the case, then I think you need to say that. It's hard to think what's worse. If you made a deal or if you just say, I don't want to address it and you honored that instead of saying, I'm sorry, I have to ask you about it. Or you just didn't think to ask it. Yeah.

And by the way, I don't want to just unnecessarily blame sideline reporters for all this because that's on the truck, too. Yeah. We have to coordinate. Like, somebody in the truck has to be like, this is that'd be the first question. This is what America has been talking about nonstop for an hour and a half. Right. Right. You can't let him just go away.

And again, yeah, I just, speaking of Jalens, what about Carter? You know, even if it has to be that. But, yeah, nobody asked me. In the second half, we had a very strange occurrence for any football game, but especially the NFL kickoff. Cowboys running back Miles Sanders had just fumbled. What a weird play that was. And then, uh-oh, Mike Tariko looked at the weather map.

Philly's got the ball at their own 16. Teams are out there right now, but I want to take a peek at the radar. We've got some lightning in the area within six miles of Lincoln Financial Field. Sean Smith is talking to the folks who are watching this. He's open the mic. The game has been suspended for lightning in the area. Yeah, I thought that was coming. So the game has been suspended.

That was weird. And boy, didn't all the post-susvention football feel so weird? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's just, I mean, we've seen that happen before. And it just, it feels like a totally different game. The intensity is different. The crowd is a little, you know, it takes a while to build back the same sort of intensity that you had earlier, right? It just feels like a game taking place on the moon almost.

It did, because the fans are completely down. Nobody scored after all that scoring in the first half and in the beginning of the third quarter. To Rico, who is like the most rock solid announcer. Yeah. I mean, never gets anything wrong. Calls Jalen Hertz Prescott for two different plays. Yeah, I was totally confused. I was like, wait a minute. Am I missing something here? I thought I was having a neurological event too. Yeah, right. It wasn't so much as you're mad. You're just like, wait, what's happening in my mind?

Yeah, I was like, I know it's late. I know it's late. So I'm just my screen. Is there a delay or a lag here? What's going on? It was 11.30 Eastern at that point. Yeah. And then, of course, Tariko, you could feel like, again, he never makes mistakes.

So you could just feel him just like clamp down. And then he's talking about Eagles, punter, Braden, man. And going into like tons of details, like, all right, he's back. He's got this. Right. And then they had the weather delay with Jason Garrett has to fill time, Joel. Like, it's like, what do you got, Jason? I'm like, oh, my God.

They cleared it out for him, man. You know what I'm saying? He got to go ISO on us. Ten of your best jokes right now. You're ready. Let's go, Jason. All right. Let's do a little bit of an NFL TV preview.

Okay. Speaking of NBC, they got the Super Bowl this year. Mm-hmm. It's going to be Mike Toriko's first Super Bowl. I don't hear I'm not counting international broadcast and radio

that first Super Bowl on the standard American television broadcast for a guy who has been around and has done as many big games

as he has you saw he was in Columbus the other day because he had done Thursday night football for ESPN with Kirk

Herb Street and Lee Corso back in the day I'm like what? I guess if I think back about it

like yeah maybe I do remember him sort of doing some of those games but yeah man he's done every i mean just just everything everything NBC's going to have a hell of a February because the winter Olympics is going to be coming to us from Milan and other beautiful places in italy from February 6th through February 22nd the Super Bowl in Santa Clara which is not in Italy is going to be on February 8th and then the NBA all-star game at the Intuit dome the home of the and battle Los Angeles Clippers, it's February 15.

Man, look at that. Man, Santa Clara, man. Shout out. You know, I used to live in the Bay, man. That was right down the street for me. I moved, I moved a little too early, I guess. You moved away from the Super Bowl. You've never been to a Super Bowl.

I want to go one day. I think we need to make that happen, just because I want to hang out with you at the Super Bowl. Remember last year on Radio where I'm like, dude, damn it Smith just walked past me. And I'm sending you pictures and everything like that. Yeah, man, I just look, man. Well, also I want to go to a UT.

you game. You know, I've never been to one of those either. We can definitely make that happen. So if next year is NBC's Super Bowl year, it's ESPN's Super Bowl dress rehearsal year. Because they have the next Super Bowl. And as Jimmy

Bittero told me on the podcast while back, they feel they finally have their team in place. Okay. Joe and Troy in the booth. Lisa Salters and Laura Rutledge on the sidelines. Wow, good for Laura. All right. It's good for Laura.

And, you know, it was a little bit of a makeup call after it didn't give her the pregame show. Right. But it is good for Laura. Steve Ackle's a producer, Artie Kempner, they went and got a director from Fox. Really, really good. We've talked about before the work in the booth, immaculate. The work in the truck in previous years, not immaculate. I still remember those personal fouls that people thought were bogus that they were calling against the Texans when they were hitting Patrick Mahomes.

And it's like we're sitting there and we're like, can you just show me an angle so I can actually see what the defender did to Patrick Mahomes? Just one angle. That's right. That's right. Yeah, man. You know, I mean, I'm sure they'll have time to work through all this. You know, they got a year now, a year and change. Then they got their pregame cruise.

We should just do a Jason Kelsey segment later because I saw his tweet last night about spitting. I sent that to you. I did see that, yeah. I'm just like, we may need to do a check in on how Jason Kelsey's worked out as a television. personality. And this for ESPN, again, we're talking two years down the line, but it's a big season for them because they want to, they want it to be finished by this year. They want to get through this year and be like, we're happy with everything.

We're happy with the announcers. We're happy with the truck. We're happy with the pregame show. Super Bowl is going to be one of the biggest days in the history of that network. Man, I can't believe that ESPN is going to have that, too, by the way. Just would it change in society that ESPN is going to have the Super Bowl? Truly. That they have big games at all. Still kind of blows my mind, having grown up with Australian rules football ESPN. Again, Keanuauer, man. I always come back to that as we've come a long way.

Joel, where were you during the Red Zone crisis of 2025? I've seen it unfolding on my social media and I just couldn't. I mean, I'm, I guess like most things, I'm like, man, people really care very deeply about this. Very deeply. It all starts on Wednesday. Scott Hansen's. who is, of course, the host of Red Zone, goes on Pat McAfee's show. He says that Red Zone will have commercials this year. Here's Scott and Pat. But I don't think anybody's upset about the commercials. I mean, it's an easy thing to kind of tweet about and post about,

but I don't think anybody's turning it off because of commercials. And the NFL knows that. And it's like, yeah, we can, we can serve. I'll tell you this. We've had meetings all offseason. We had our rehearsal. we had our dress rehearsal in week three of the preseason and we are not going to sacrifice

any great football for any of the business side of things. That's not a guarantee I would be willing to make. You know what I mean? Like that's like no new taxes. Read my lips, no new taxes. It's just like, all right, you know, we'll see. Also, how do you do that? Because what he's saying essentially is to look at the balls

of the three yard line. We're not going to disappear. But do we know when a pick six is? going to happen? Right. Well, I mean, theoretically, it's red zone, so all these plays are important. You know, you're going to sacrifice something. Like, the urgency is why we're watching this.

So something's going to have to be sacrificed, even if it's only a very short commercial, right? I agree. Now, that was a really weird segment. If you go back and watch the whole thing, there's not even really a formal announcement that there's going to be commercials. Essentially, what they have Scott Hansen do on that show is do his normal lead-in. but the wording is different this year

because there's going to be a few ads. But the very hint that Red Zone would have any kind of ad inventory just triggers people, Joel. There was a tweet from the Democratic Party and I mean not the Democratic Party of greater Los Angeles. I mean the Democratic Party trolling Trump.

Like this is Trump's America. Here we go. New York Governor Kathy Hochel got in on the act. man. That was Wednesday. Yesterday, Austin Carp of the Sports Business Journal writes, sources tell us that Red Zone this season will have

four 15-second ads over seven plus hours. I mean, isn't that like YouTube premium? You know what I mean? Like, I just kind of feel like we've all just... Isn't that better than YouTube premium? I mean, are you talking about the ones where you have the little moment of Zen on YouTube TV or just

like the YouTube premium I feel like I have YouTube premium. Maybe somebody would correct me on this because I had to get it for my kids, right? Because they'd be watching Miss Rachel or whatever. And it's just like, oh, they get pissed. And then I noticed, I was like, you know, every night and again, there's a commercial in this. I thought I was paying for not commercials. But again, you just kind of get used to it, right?

Like, I don't know. Like when I had TiVo, you know, we moved on from TiVo and then they moved commercials into that. Like, they always are going to find a way to do ads, right? You know where I've gotten used to commercials, watching football. Man. I mean, that's the whole experience, right? I mean, also it's just so crazy. It's like, what if they told people, well, you know, for the Super Bowl man to make it up to you guys, we're not going to have any ads.

Would that make you feel better, you know? I mean, I would just be like, are you okay? Yeah, right. You want your television network to go out of business? Right. Like, we need these. When I saw Carp's tweet, 60 seconds total over seven plus hours, I texted someone at the NFL and I'm like, I'm sorry, am I misunderstanding this in some way? We had a crisis because of 60 seconds, not 60 seconds every 30 minutes, 60 seconds total.

This podcast you're listening to will have more ads than seven plus hours of Red Zone. And the person the NFL said, yes, it might go to two minutes total, again, total over seven hours. Man, I mean, don't you want, don't you guys need the time to get up and get a sandwich, some chips to use a bathroom? That's to me part of the magic of television football. Yeah. It's perfectly paced. Like excitement, excitement, excitement, okay, check my phone. Let me step away for a moment.

Yeah, I just need a break, right? Yeah. Last night, I was like, I'm going to order some wings. You know, I'm going to get on an app. I'm not sure what app I'm supposed to say here, but we got it on an app and I ordered some yummy wings. Good for you. Wings up?

That was not. It was a place called BBQ chicken. It has like Korean sauces and things. Oh, you got Korean. Oh, man, good for you. Really exciting. Anyway, people tweeted at me yesterday and we're like, but doesn't this the way they sneak in more advertising inventory?

Maybe. Right. But again, I don't think we've totally. need to go to Ballastations over one minute or two minutes. Three months ago, we didn't have football. Now we have football. I'm willing to deal with a few commercials, man. I'm sorry.

All right, a couple more for you. Tom Brady, year two. Yeah. Another big storyline this year. Tom Brady, year one was kind of a C-plus. Sort of like his career. Come on now. Come on.

All right, all right. Tom Brady, year two, it's interesting. thing. It was so much was made last year of him not being able to go to those Zoom meetings because he's a part owner of the Raiders. The NFL reverse course this year. I'm like, I don't think Tom Brady was underprepared last year. I think it was the opposite. He felt like he was overprepared. That makes sense. Like he'd done all this homework and his calls sounded like homework rather than one of the greatest

quarterbacks of all time just reacting to a football game. It's a tough, I mean, again. It, we, you know, it's going to take time, right? Like, you know that nobody, very few people can move into that row seamlessly. So we have to give him the grace, right? And so yeah, he needs time to warm up and get his routine together. I don't know about grace, but I, you know, just, I don't know. I'm eager to see here too because I think in talking to people who let us say are invested in the Tom Brady project, they expect a big jump in here too. Sounds more leap. Yes. Yes. And leap. is the right word. Like, not incremental progress, but real progress.

Right. You need to be special. Okay. Yeah. Because it's like, I think last year was rookie quarterback year where the game's happening really fast. Right. A lot of voices in your head. We can do all the cliches for the NFL. Yeah. Who do you think is going to have a better year, too? Him or Caleb Williams. Oh, my God. That's actually a good one. Isn't it right? Yeah. Because there's a lot of upside for both, I think. A lot of upside. But there's a lot of, there's a lot of, we see some weaknesses. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Brady was on Chris Collinsworth's pro football focus podcast. Mm-hmm. And first of all, kind of always cool when you see two people that both have the same job that just never talk to each other in real life, talk to each other. Yeah. So it's kind of a neat experience. But Brady had this clip where he was like talking about how he sees, he watches quarterbacks to see how they celebrate after a touchdown.

Yeah. What they do, who they celebrate with. And it was kind of like, oh, man, this is how we did it during the Patriots Dynasty. Yeah. Was that type of take. But he was fired up about it. I'm like, put this on TV. It was very YATTittle with him.

Very YATTittle. But I'm like, the part about you telling us how you see football, I think that's hard to get out. Yeah. The kind of Tom Brady values part of it. I think that's easy to get out. And it may rub us the wrong way. You and I may be doing another podcast segment about, look at this guy. Oh, I mean, this is like the people talking about Jalen Carter.

Like, come on, let's just bring it down. But if he thinks that, I want to know that. I mean, I suspect that he's probably a grading person. But if we need to know that, right? Like, that is, if he's going to be coming from the Shakir O'Neal School of Broadcasting, which is what I did was the right way, what you're doing is. the wrong way. You know, fine. But yeah, like I guess Fox, you know, they need to know that too. That needs to come through, even if it's going to be annoying because that in itself has sort of

a value too. Like people hating you can sometimes be a compelling reason to tune in, I guess. Last year, I told you this before, the thing to listen to with Tom Brady was how he talked about quarterbacks and what he didn't say. Yeah. The way he talked about Patrick Mahomes or is the way he talked about Jalen Hertz. You can absolutely understand what Tom Brady thought about a player. How he talked about Jalen Hertz in the second half of the Super Bowl, even as Jalen Hertz played an immaculate game and won a championship. Just listen. You'll know. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, he has great, he has great opinions about it. Also, sometimes it wasn't even verbal. You can hear make noises when quarterbacks were doing things. Like, oh, you know, that kind of stuff.

He was a noise guy. He was a noise guy. So, yeah, it was just kind of funny, too. You got to know of himself. Other thing I'll be watching in the booth, JJ Watt, over on CBS. It's going from the studio to the booth where he is going to be the number two analyst at that network. Okay. Okay. Do you think JJ Watt has TV number one broadcaster potential? I could see that. I mean, man, you know, JJ Watt is probably, I mean, one of the most liked athletes of recent Vantage. And he's really enthusiastic. He's just got, you know, I guess like if you were trying to identify current star players or former star players who have kind of the makeup, that's the guy, right? And so yeah, like I could, I mean, I might want to hear him more than Tom Brady, you know? Yeah. And what about

Tony Romo? Because that's the guy he's going to be compared to. And you know, being number two is great because it's like being the backup quarterback. Oh, yeah. When the number one quarterback's a little flawed and you're the most interesting person in the world. Everybody won a Cooper Rush until he had to play a lot of more games. Until he had to play. Yeah, so. Exactly. Like Iron Eagle and JJ.

I mean, you can already feel people being like, you know, why don't they call the number one game? That is a very solid booth right there. So, yeah. I mean, you won't, you won't feel like you're missing out on much if you end up with those guys. Yeah. No matter what Tony Romo and your shipnance do, it's just, that's the shiny new object. and it will be fun. Last observation I had for you is just like,

we don't have enough good NFL games to go around for all the partners that want good NFL games. Oh, man. I mean, too, yes. Are you where the Fox and the aforementioned Brady are starting with Giants at Commanders this week? That's a week one offering? I mean, I understand why people like that game.

I mean, I guess we're in a paradigm where people used to care about the NFC East in that way, two major are their rivals, I guess, but yeah, I guess Jaden Daniels. Like maybe we want to see Jada Daniels,

right? So, and, you know, there'll be that. And Fox has got Chiefs Eagles a week too, so that's clearly the makeup call.

Yeah. Yeah. But you just think like when you have all these partners, and now you've got Netflix, you've got Amazon on Thursday nights, you want to make sure those Netflix Christmas games are good.

You just don't have enough compelling NFL games to give everybody one. this is the thing that I've always thought about the NFL. They show an awful lot of terrible product, man. There's a lot of bad games I don't give a shit about. People watch it. People watch it, man.

I watch it. I'm like, I'm like you. I don't care about this. It's on. I'm sitting on the couch for three hours. It's on. Yeah.

I need it on in the background at least. Yeah. I mean, the Monday night season opener is Vikings at Bears. You're going to bring all your rowdy friends to watch that game? I mean, I guess it's compelling. I kind of want to see Caleb Williams, I guess. J.J. McCarthy, you know, we got that.

And the Vikings were 14 and 3 last year, right? So, but yeah, it's just, you know, I'm a college football guy. So it's just, I'm already sort of working at a deficit here. But I'll check it out. College football's got a deficit, too. We got Michigan, Oklahoma's the big ESPN game this week. Again, speaking of kind of, I'm kind of interested in that. That is the, that's the, that is the, that is the, uh, sacrifice.

you have to make for having such a great week one. By the way, NBC, whatever they were doing behind the scenes with the NFL, you start with Cowboys Eagles and then their Sunday night game. Do you know what it is this week? Oh, no. What is it? Ravens Bills. Oh, yeah.

Oh, okay. That'll work. That's exciting. Okay. I like that. All right. Here is the newest edition of our 25 for 25 series. Joel was behind the controls.

I'm going to save the intro because you gave Dominique a very long and generous one here. Here is Joel Anderson, Dominique Foxwood. So our next guess for our 25 for 25 series is Dominique Foxworth. He's a man, many talents.

Three-time All-American football player at the University of Maryland. Three times? Was that the AP All-American team or was that some other ones? Like walk to camp or something? I don't know, man. Honestly, I didn't know that was true. True. It was in your bio.

My bio, where? You were for ESPN press room. They put that in there. That seems like unnecessary. Like, there's something that you need to drop. At this point, college all-American lists, it seems like a useless, I don't know, for someone who at that point, I was a writer. Like, what are we doing? Who cares?

Man, well, well, I was just, you know, I was trying, I was going chronologically. I didn't, you know, I didn't say all state, you know what I'm saying? Were you all state? Yeah. I mean, come on, man. Okay. I don't know, man. Man, there's a big state.

No, but you, you, it's just Texas snobbery, Texas high school snobbery. Like, I wouldn't have been all state down there, too. It's tough. I would have got it too. I mean, you know what I'm saying, man, it's a little different. I mean, you made it to the league. Obviously, you official, but I'm just saying.

I ain't say it was a little different. I didn't, I don't disagree with you. I'm not saying Maryland high school football is the same as Texas high school football, But I'm saying I would have been all Texas the same way as all Maryland. Okay. So you say you would have been a six-day-all state, huh? Class six-A-all state. Okay.

I probably wouldn't have been at quarterback in safety. Was it Maryland? I probably would have been in a more realistic position at corner. But yeah, I just strapped up them kids down there and caught six touchdowns a game. Okay. Oh, damn. Maybe not six. I'm getting a lot.

I was like, yeah, bro. Come on, man. I give them to have some respect. David Boston didn't even do that. You know what I'm saying? But since I, see, he's offended by me going chronologically, but I feel like that was part of my intro. No, I'm not offended by it.

I just like, it just seems silly for them to put that on the ESPN website that I was an all-American college footballer. Three-time All-American, by the way. So I might want to check into that. But he ended up going on to be a seven-year NFL veteran, which means he probably would have been Allstate in Class 6A in Texas, got his MBA from the Harvard Business School and then worked as chief operating officer of the NBA Players Association. But the reason he's here today is what happened next. He decided to go into the very lucrative and stable business of sports media

and worked as a writer and commentator of Anscape. This is when it was known as undefeated, though, and went on to work at ESPN Radio and contribute to outside the line, sports center around the horn and highly questionable. None of those shows exist anymore, by the way. But he does have his own show, the Dominique Foxweb show, show that I was just on early this week. A great pot that comes out Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, and he's still a regular contributor on ESPN's get-up.

Dominique, thanks for coming on with this, brother. I'm happy to be here, man. I appreciate it. And all those shows that no longer exist are not because of me. Yeah, well, I didn't necessarily say you were the reason, you know what I'm saying? But it just happened. I mean, I'm not a coach killer,

man. I extend careers, man. I get people raised. I was a part of the crew. Like, if you remember, when Get Up first started, it wasn't, it didn't do very well. And there was conversations about getting rid of it. Then they brought in a new crew of, like, contributors. I was a part of the new crew of contributors.

Okay, he's saying you're additive. You're additive. Okay, all right. You got them up off the mat, huh? Oh, yeah. I mean, Greenie owes me everything, right? Damn, okay. See, man, look, I mean, you know what?

See, this is the time you can take it back to college. You'd be like, hey, man, coach Frigin. You know what I'm saying? Maryland, Maryland ain't never had a better run than when you were there, you know. That was the best run. My senior year was kind of whack, though. But those first three, though, we was killer, though. I think we lost two games one year and lost one game, the other couple of years.

And I know inevitably you're going to bring up how Florida blew us out in Orange, I was going to skip the nonsense. You know what I'm saying. That's fine. It's kind of right to it. I'm going to do you like that. You talk about what we did to Tennessee and the Peach Bowl the next year, SEC. Smith, C, C, C.

Oh man, who was a quarterback in Tennessee that year? Who was it? Claussen, I think. Okay, one of the, Jimmy Clausen. Yeah, one of the Claussen. Casey Claus. Casey Claus. Yeah, one of the Clauses.

And they had Whitten and they had Starworth. Wow, Whitney. They had some boys. They weren't as loaded as that Florida team that beat the dog shit. Clearly. That team, boy. Clearly. Lord.

It's crazy you mentioned Whitten today because I was reading something. And Cooper Whitten is a five-star linebacker. and the DFW area. And his, and Jason Whitney has a freshman who's at Rice University on football team too. It's crazy.

It's over for like people like me who parents didn't play high level sports. Yeah. And then you make it to high level sports. It's done for y'all. I don't care how, I don't care how much money you invest in training. If you wasn't,

like, if you wasn't something, hey, it's done for y'all. Well, I didn't say I know this because I've seen Dominic's daughter run. You know what I'm saying? So he's telling

he's getting he's telling like, hey man, don't even try. I've seen the tape. She's flying around that track in this area. The funny thing is though, like she was killing it in track and I area. And I mean, she's good in the national stuff and she like runs a little bit older.

But now she's going entering high school. And the thing about track is it's not about because it's like so binary is the wrong word, but so like, objective. It's like, we got times. We measure the win. I can look around and see how close you are to other people. So it's fun

watching that little, like at that age when you start to get competitive. Yeah. And you find out if it's some dog or not some dog, she got some dog, which I appreciate. Yeah, man. I'll tell you I want to come see a run one of these times. So, yeah. You're welcome. Well, so let's start from the beginning.

Well, not necessarily at the beginning. But so when I was a freshman at TCU, I set through a presentation with the football team about how the media was not our friends and to be very careful about what you said to them and, you know, how you communicated with them. So I was just good, what sort of relationship with the media do you have as a player? I always had a good relationship with the media. I think, and when I was in Denver, I got, you know, like local media markets will do like that award. I think I got that award for one year for like being a good. person to deal with. I don't know. I had no, it's always pretty easy, man. It's just deal with the media.

You tell them what you want them to know. You don't tell them what you don't want them to know. It was a pretty simple exercise. And you're nice to open and you smile. You treat them with some respect. And like, also like for, for me, like coming up in Maryland where like it wasn't like a huge football hotbed and being a cornerback. on a team, like you don't get a bunch of attention. It's like, yeah, I liked it. It was a sudden

people wanted to talk to me. So, like, I'd never really had a problem with the media. And we were winning. Like, I never really been on bad teams. Like, I've had bad games and had people write and talk and say not nice things to me. But like, generally, you're winning. You're doing well. You're part of success. The media is pretty easy to do it. So you didn't, did you have to go through media training at all? Or did you do any of that then? No, I didn't really go through any of that sort of media training. It was they were kind of put fires out. It was kind

of my experience was like if you got into some stuff. The one thing I did, which I remember, so in Denver, I played a lot as a rookie and I played well. And then the next year I had a little bit less playing time. And then my third year in Denver,

they draft or they traded for Dre Bly to play opposite Chant Bailey. And so I was pissed. I liked Dre and we were cool, but they started asking me questions. Like, how many teams do you think that you could start for in the NFL?

And I guess I could have said 31, but I said 32. And then I got traded the next year. So the way that they dealt with my media fauxpons is not the way that you deal with it when you got a star. where you got a star, they get your media training.

They sit you down and they prep you. Where you're not a star, run your mouth if you want to. We're going to get your ass up out of here. Did you hear from them? Did you hear from them? No. No, I didn't hear from it. No, it wasn't like the Broncos to tell me that that was part of it.

No, hell no, I didn't hear from them. What happened was like this, every offseason. Because I played well enough to be a starter on a 13 and 1, team as a, or 13 and three team as a rookie, like, I got a little attention and, and had, like, relationships with the media people. And they recognized that I was like, had some value as a player. So there was, like, trade rumors, which is kind of crazy, obviously, but they're trade rumors after my second year. And that, to me, was like, the coach came up to me, Shannon was like, that's not true, don't believe. Obviously, now look back and know he was lying dead to my face.

But the everybody is, and I, as I work in the media, I've come to realize that everybody is trying to work the media subpoint. And the media has a lot of power and influence. And these coaches, some of the stuff that's being written and said about teams and players and coaches are coming from the top of the organization. These are things that they want out there because they know, like, the power and the influence. media has. When did you, when did you come to that epiphany? Like, was there a specific moment? You were just like, oh, no, the only person that would know this or would put this out would be somebody from within the organization. Yeah, I mean, I think it, I can't think of a specific moment or epiphany, but when you start to, so like I never, and I know everyone says they

don't read the stuff and they don't follow it. Like, of course, I followed and read some of the stuff that that was around the teams that I played for, but I don't think I followed it closely enough to appreciate that there are reasons why different things are happening. And I think it took until I stepped away from the game to start to be like, oh, well, this benefits this part. And like, there's a reason why this is getting out because I was always kind of naive in many ways,

but naive in that way where, like, I always believe, like, we're all doing this the right way, right? Right, right. We mean it. We're not playing. games, we're not playing politics, we're not trying to create leverage. Like, we just out here trying to do our damn job. But I think I've come to realize now.

And then being here, where there are people who try to get me to participate in whatever storyline that they want to propagate. Wow. So people will come to you now to do that sort of stuff. Really? I don't, I mean, it's not obvious. It's not like nobody is that clumsy. It's more just like they recognize that I have a voice and they would like,

like to be and like have some line of communication. And I make it sound more nefarious than it actually is. But the way that they present it is normally like, I want you to have the full story. Like I want you to understand all it is. And it's like you have to take it into account and balance what you're doing and try to be as honest as you can be. Well, so one of the questions I was going to ask if you read the stuff that was in the media.

So do you think that your career in football, help prepare you for career media. Because Bimani talks about this sometimes, too, about like, he noticed like, oh, man, the level of preparation, showing up on time, doing all that kind of stuff. He's like, man, they really come here in a serious about it. So did, like, football help you in that way, or did it help you in some other way in terms of transition?

It's funny because I think the guys who, there's a bunch of things about football that I think are, or sports in general that are helpful for your life going forward. none of them look good on a resume. You know, like, you can't be like, I've actually, it doesn't, you can't say like I've mastered Excel or whatever things that people, I guess you don't use Excel anymore. You're AI to do all your work.

I don't know. Yeah. Thank God, because I never know how to use it. I'm just thinking that, but there are like these high stakes experiences and high pressure things that you can't really simulate anywhere else. and being comfortable in those settings and accountable. And also, like, the idea, and I try to do this with my kids, is talk about, like, real accountability and not just the facade of accountability.

And it's a hard thing because it feels like it's obviously human nature to, like, make some explanation that always makes you the hero or makes you the victim when things don't go right. And we do it in our relationships. if your wife or girlfriend or one of your homeboys gets fired, we all get together and talk about how that boss was mismanaging shit and how they expected this from you, you couldn't do it. That's probably true.

10% of the time. 90% of the time, you fucked up. And as a football player, there is no room. There is a weeding process. And it's so clear. And we watch tape. And that's the thing that I think I are the people who I work with is I try more and more to, well, I understand better now that no one else or very few people have been brought up in that way in their formative years.

Because so many of us in our formative years are like, eh, you're learning. We look out for you. Or we don't give you that much pressure. You're only 22. We're not going to put this much on you. that's something that I recognize and I try to be in environments and create an environment where it can be accountable but not harsh. Yep, yep. It's like we have a joke, we have like a box of maxims on my show where it's like we say things that we think are important that we don't want to forget.

And one of them is accountability plays. And we say it as a joke all the time, but we also know that we really mean it. Right. It's like, no, like, it plays. And like, you're not going to be perfect, but you fucked up. You're fucked up. I'm not going to fight you, but I want you to know it. One of the things I think that, and I found this in media, that it's actually sort of frustrating.

And I'd say this, you talk about with my wife. I was like, you know, one thing in football is that you get real feedback. Like, I was like, I just really want honesty. Like, you don't, like, it may hurt my feelings. I may be a little salty about it. But I just really want you to just tell me the truth. And I'll be able to tell if you're lying to me. Is that something that you've kind of.

dealt with two? Oh, no one gives you, like, real feedback. Everyone just smiles and tells you you're good and then you get laid off. Yes. Yeah, it sounds familiar. Like, I mean, it's not, it takes a lot of, it's hard. There's a one producer that I really like, or a couple producers, actually. And this probably happened as a result of, like, I jokingly said how I saved Get Up,

but like they changed the producers. And I think the new producers that came in are some of the better producers that I've worked with because they're pretty honest. And I think Pete McConvo is like, was like the coordinator producer. And he's moved up since then. But he was one of the first people that would be direct with me. And I loved it. It's like, yeah.

Like, no, this didn't work out. And I was like, I know it didn't. How are we going to get it right? Most other people was like, they would go in the back. room with the other producers and whispered to each other that this didn't work out and not say shit to you. Right. Come on. Oh, that was great.

That was fine. Yeah. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I just find that to be super helpful. And, like,

you know, Charlie, my co-host and also the head producer of my show. Like, I've been working with him for a long time for a bunch of different projects. And he's also someone who like has an athlete's mentality and appreciates that. But you, you notice that it's,

I guess Shannon Sharp might be. an exception to this, but so many of the best people on TV, former athletes, or just in media, were not great players. And I think there's something to be said

for the experience of being a good football player or even like a mediocre football player or athlete and then coming out and joining media, I guess Charles Barkley is another guy who, who, like, bucks that. But, like, if you think about anybody else who's, like, at the top of it, like, everybody's good. Right.

But, like, nobody was great. Like, Ryan Clark, very good football player. But he wasn't, like, he wasn't, like, Ed Reed. Right, you know. And that's the same thing as, like, Dan Orlovsky. He's an NFL quarterback. Maybe never a starter, but, like, a good football player. But he was never Matt Stafford or anybody like that.

I think there's something. And obviously the same thing is true for me. And even like, I don't know, I go through a bunch of other names of guys at other networks that have made careers for themselves. But it's so rarely built on the name as much as it's just built on the proximity to success. And then it's the hard work that comes along with it. I love that. Love that. So, and I know you've talked about this previously with my co-host, Brian.

But you asked them the question, I want to turn it back on. you now since we're on the eve of the NFL season kicking off. What do you think of the current state of NFL coverage? Hmm. I don't like doing shows with real journalists who like go back and watch your previous interviews and prepare in a way. Like you, you adore knocking ass journalists.

Like you're a real deal. Like I'm not going to dough, man. I love not going. I'm concerned. I feel like all your questions are like set up guys. I believe the state of media is fantastic. Oh, stop it. I don't know, I mean, I generally like, I'm not a complainer, you know.

It's like I'm sure that there's plenty wrong with it. And I'm sure it could get much better in many ways. But generally what I would say is like the tide of this industry has not necessarily been better or worse, it's just more. Yeah. And I think that means that we get more of the top-end stuff, and we also get more of the

stuff that I don't like, but it's popular. You know, so, like, that stuff's going to be out there, but I don't get offended by the stuff that I don't like. Like, I see that often is where we do it this way. So that means this way is right. Right. And then you use so much of your energy

saying, they're doing it the wrong way. I don't know why they're so successful. It gives shit. They're not hurt nobody. They have a successful product that works for a lot of people. Why does it bother you? So, like, I don't have the impetus to complain about it. And I think implicit in that comment

is, like, the first take first take of vacation of all this. Like, that shit don't bother me. I can't imagine that I would sit and watch two hours straight of it every day, but it ain't for me. Right. You know, I go on the shit and I enjoy arguing.

with people on it sometimes. It's fine, but yeah. And I think there's another extreme of it now that it's like the like nerding, nerdification of football. That was the next thing I was going to ask you because you've mentioned the film guys have sucked the fun out of football. Yeah. So, well, and I could just say, I hated watching film when I played football. That was the, that was the most boring part of this shit for me. I can't believe people would I make a career out of doing that. But is that like one of the, is that one of the things when you're talking about that's the stuff I don't really care about. Is that kind of it right there?

I mean, I think so there's so many, like, at least for me, there were traps that I could have fallen into. And traps may be the wrong word, but there were avenues I could have taken and I wanted to take. And I think somewhat born of, like, insecurities being that I came up as an athlete and not as, like, a smart person, I wanted to, like, flex my ability. So, like, I became, like, really fluent. and the most obscure analytics and was throwing those all around

as if it demonstrated something. And then I realized, I don't like this. You know? Like, I don't like this. Like, I want to watch people play. I want to watch somebody do some cool shit. And so I say that to say that I recognize that that's super attractive

and so much fun to some people, but I need to understand it enough to use it when I need to. And that's like that's helped me with my analysis when I'm on TV and stuff. And I tell this, I hate to sound like I'm some grizzled vet who has it all figured out. But there's a couple of things that I have learned. And I tell this to people who are on these type of shows is you don't have to tell them everything that you looked up. Because that was my problem, was like, I did all this research. I need to demonstrate that I did all of this research.

Like you don't get points for that. Right. You know, like you do the research to be able to support your idea and then introduce your idea and a fun and entertaining, interesting, insightful. Like, whatever your stick is, like, deliver it in that way. And if somebody second guess you, you need to say, well, this is what the advanced analytics say. That's fine. But nobody is entertained by you talking about all the numbers that you looked at. Yeah, man.

The all 22 grind is just, I mean, I was just like, I have no need for that. Do you do the old 22 grind? You do? What's your prep like? What are you doing? So I like the All-22 grind because the grind nature of it and that there's a there's a panning for gold. Like feeling about it. And it's so difficult to have like original opinions and insight. Right. And because football is so. complex. It's hard for people to watch and pull out something. So like I'll watch all 22. And of course,

it does feel like kind of boring at times. But then you get that one little nugget. Nobody else recognized how they, how this team ran this simulated pressure. And then that causes you to find all the other formations in the previous. It's like, oh, this is why they did that. Like that, that, that to me is worth doing. And, and also just like giving you the confidence to talk. about things because it's like I've gotten to it with a bunch of people before and even the guys who are best at it

have mistakes but like it's frustrating for me when I've watched games and the former quarterback is not even acknowledging that it's a cover too and they hit the weakness of the cover too and instead of that they're like hey these cornerbacks over here getting eaten alive like eh

I know you know better what are you doing And so like that, that to me does matter. There is a version of all of this stuff that is, it's not just good and bad. Um, or it's not just like people like this and other people don't like this. Some of it is like actually just bad, which that stuff is out there. But I think it's important to, to understand what you're saying, especially when we go back to the original conversation is that this stuff does have influence. Right. Right. Well, are you, are you, how are you sharpening? Because like, I mean, football's changing, right?

Like it's an evolving sport. People are doing anything. So how are you keeping fluent in the language of the game as it evolves then? Because like it ain't like you in a huddle every day now, right? Coaches, man. Like it's to the point, the people that I was talking about that are trying to shape the story. There are obviously also it's in their interest to make sure we know what's going on. So like that helps. And football like everything else, man.

Like this is cyclical. None of this shit is new. Like the names might be different. But so. so much of this stuff is just like a different version of some stuff that's happened in the past. So what do you think media could do in terms of being better about talking about sports, right? Like, you know, obviously, I mean, it's easy for people to be like, oh, the first take a vacation or whatever. But like obviously, like, then I'm like, well, what do you, what do you think we could be doing better?

If you had to start over and say, I wanted to get into the industry today, what would you bring that you think that, you know, that people could relate to and grab onto that would improve that coverage? I mean, that's a good question because I don't know that there's anything that's missing. I think there are things that aren't popular that are good that I like. Like what? Which I enjoy listening to the nerds. Like I talk bad about the nerds Really? I like, yeah, I like listening to the nerds.

With nerds. Give me some nerds. I don't know if people, if they would consider themselves nerds. Oh, Bill Barnwell, he's a nerd that considers himself a nerd. He does. I don't want to insult people that don't consider themselves nerds. But, like, I like the, the PFF guys, or I guess they're former PFF guys now that do the podcast, check the mic. I like their podcast is good, and they would qualify.

They're more like, Film junkies and not not nerds, but like I enjoy their podcast. They like spend four hours going over the week's games, which like it'll take me the week to get through it all. But like I enjoy it. Like I those are the perspectives the perspectives that are like more long form and you won't get on TV and you won't get on Twitter that I think I appreciate getting a chance to consume some of that stuff.

I'm glad you said that because no group is a monolith, right? But, you know, I mean, and certainly there was a point in my career. And I felt like when I came into it as a journalist, I had to let people know. I was like, you know, I played football a little bit when you're going to the locker room. Because you felt like maybe people would not respect your opinion on football and I might respect you much. So, like, overall, do you think football players generally respect what media members have to say about football, right? Like, absolutely. Really?

Yeah, I think the media doesn't know as much about football as the players. So I think there's always going to be there. But I think by and large, I think that they do respect. Like respect is such a low ball. I don't think that they think generally the media is overall detrimental. I think it's an easy boogeyman, which we see it like outside of sports and beyond, which it's not a perfect industry. So some of the criticisms are warranted,

but it's an easy boogeyman when things aren't going the way that you want. But I think by and large, they, or at least this has been my experience. I can only view it through my prism. Like I don't get a bunch of players who are like pissed at me for the coverage that I do.

Okay. Okay. I'm going to start a little bit at the beginning here. So you're, this, you know, let's go back over a decade. when did you know that you wanted to do this? Like, why? Okay. I didn't. It was the opposite of what I wanted to do.

So like back to like our, my little therapy session about my insecurities was like I, I left the NFL with the attention of not being in sports because like I didn't like the perception. And maybe this was all internal or whatever. Because I don't have a problem with it now. Like I've come to. accept and appreciate that football players are like just as smart or smarter than everyone else. But like the perception was different.

So that's why I went to business school. And then I left and ended up working in sports, but like on executive at the union, which was cool. Then my wife and I were expecting our third child, so we needed to move out of Manhattan. We just weren't going to raise three kids in Manhattan. So I started, I've always written. So I just started writing, we had to wait for them to get out of school. So we had a few months before we could move back to D.C. So I started writing, like freelance writing and sending it in places to get published

just because sitting around all day just fucking depressing. And then it just so happened that it timed up with how, and I was writing about the intersection of like culture and sports and race and those sorts of things. And undefeated was being born in D.C., which is an incredible coincidence at the same time. And that's how I ended up there. And then you get into contract negotiations and they're like, well, we don't pay writers like that. I was like, well, who do you pay that way? They're like the people who on TV show me a camera.

And I'll see if I can do this. And that's how it came to be. Well, I was going to, because, you know, writing is a non-traditional path for a lot of athletes. And I'm not saying it because, again, it ain't like athletes are afraid of hard work. But writing is like the least lucrative and the least, I guess, at least publicly rewarding form of this. Like, so why were you writing? Like, what made you, like, gravitate toward that? I've always liked it.

And I've always loved it. I've gotten better at it. The funny thing is I hope that everyone has the same experience, too, or all the writers who are listening to this, is that you look back at the old stuff and you're like, damn, I thought that was good. And that's the funny thing. It's like, I thought it was good.

And I enjoy doing it, but I don't, I look back at it and I don't love all this stuff. But I mean, it's just a, I don't know, it's one of those challenges that I've always enjoyed. And it's a way to express yourself in a way to communicate that. You ask me what are the things that are missing? And I think it's some of the things that were, that came from writing. Not to say that it has to be written out, but like we've lost some of the value of that storytelling. And at least for me, that's from a consumer's. standpoint, but me as writing less now, I think my brain doesn't work as well as it did when I was

writing on a daily basis. Interesting. So did you, I mean, did you have sort of a conception of what you wanted a writing? Did you want a writing career or was writing just something you were doing? You were just like, I'm going to try. Like I mentioned, I've always liked to write. So my rookie year in Denver, I wrote a weekly column for the Denver Post, just like a rookie journal. And then my second year, I I like led a writing workshop at the boys and girls club. That was my third year at the boys and girls club. Like I've always enjoyed writing. Then I got away from it because contract year, baby, we got to lock in.

And then when I was sitting in our apartment at 1 15th in Riverside in Manhattan and my two kids were at school. And my wife was six months pregnant. I was sitting in a house with no work to go to. nothing else to do. I was like, well, you like to write, sit down and write. So then I just started writing because it was a way to pass time. So like I had no idea of where this, of where this career or that this would even be a career, just something I liked to do and I wanted to do and I got some stuff published and it was

it was fine. And I kept writing. I eventually wrote for a TV show. Like none of this stuff was was the plan. It just kind of fell into place. Who, did anybody sort of model was sort of running? Because I, you know, like, I mean, Ralph Wiley inspired me, right?

Like, that was the guy that, like, when I was growing up, that's where I was trying to be, right? So did anybody when you were writing and you're like, this is what I'm trying to do? Like, was there some sort of model for what you were doing? No, it's... Damn. I don't know.

I don't know. Yeah, I didn't have, like, I'm sports writer, and I always feel silly in these conversations because it's not as if I didn't read these things, but the byline never stuck, you know? I didn't have, I just would, yeah, I'd read it and appreciate it, but I never, like, was like, I got to always read. Like, I listen to this podcast pretty regularly,

and I hear names thrown around as if I should know it. I'm always a little bit embarrassed. Like, yeah, I don't really know that. And then I'll see some of the pieces like, oh, yeah, I read that. Yeah. But, like, it just, like, it just doesn't stick with me that way. This is kind of a weird question. Do you think of yourself as a former athlete working in media

or a media professional who was once an athlete? It's like a subtle difference, but does that make sense? No, it makes 100% sense. I felt like it's definitely a former athlete working in media. I remember when Kevin Marito would, he ran the undefeated the first few years, and he would call me a writer and call me a journalist. And I'm like, man, I, I,

yeah, I wish I could see the face. I ain't no journalist. I ain't no journalist, brother. I'm a football player. Let's be clear. I love that. I love that. Do other players reach out to you about how to get in the media?

And if they do, like, what do you tell them? Oh, yeah. I mean, lots of people reach out about getting in media. It's like more, like, non-exam. players than actual players. But the problem with giving any sort of advice and I mean, I tend generally not to want to give advice to anybody about anything. But like I could just tell you based of my experience, but you know this and anybody in this industry knows this. It's like it's tough to advise anybody in the industry that feels like it's unsettled. You know, like it feels

like it's constantly in flux. So like the best thing you can do is build your own platform. which is damn near impossible. You know, like, for people with no traction, there's no celebrity, no, like, distribution network, it's, like, really hard to, like, build a YouTube following from scratch or something like that. But, like, that feels like the only thing, like attention is of value. It's always going to be valuable.

Being able to garner some level of attention and have some sort of following. That's the thing that feels that if you want to be in this, that's the thing that feels like it'll always be valuable. But where to do it, how to do it. Like at one point, it was like, I have this byline at this place. And that means I'm valuable because I know people will come find my byline. It's changed so many different ways. I don't know what it's going to be going forward,

but it feels like the most important thing you can do, which is advice I don't take myself, but like build up a social media following. You know, like I'm terrible at it and I don't want to be good at it, which sucks. But that feels like the currency. right now is like, hey, with me comes X amount of followers. Why, yeah, I actually, that's like a, why don't you do the, you know, you turn your little

camera phone on and you just talk to the camera and start posting clips. I mean, because that is, I know that, like, for instance, I know that I need to be doing that, but I just don't, I have a revulsion to doing that. Like, I just, yeah. I think you and I are on that same, are on the same side of that dividing line that feels Like, it's somewhat about generations and it just doesn't feel comfortable, you know? Like, it's funny because it's not that different from what I do on TV, but there's something about all these lights and cameras and all these people

and, like, the respectability of TV that makes me feel more comfortable doing it. But I feel if I were to bring up my camera and try to do, like a selfie video, or if I were to like engage in every Twitter beef, like, it just feels so performative that it feels inauthentic to me, which is stupid for someone who's obviously performing on Get Up. You know, like I'm arguing to the death with Stephen A over something that is marginally important. I'm definitely performing. But that feels like a performance that I'm cool with. There's other stuff. We're like, look at me. It just feels so. It just feels so wrong to me, man.

Well, see, I was winding down to the end here, but now I got to, I got to ask you this question because I've always wondered that because I've never, you know, I didn't, I didn't get famous enough for ESPN and ask me to do anything, you know. They want me, they want me, they want me on camera. I'm not, I'm not going to fall for that trap. They didn't want me on camera, that's fine. But, but, but yeah, so I was wondering, like, about going on get up, going on first take. Like, there is an element of performance, right?

Like you're, when you go on there, like, this is not how you're normally talking. So you're aware of that, like, and do they talk to you about that? Like, hey, projection, intensity, energy. Is that kind of stuff going on? No. That's another, like, to your point, like, there's not feedback. And, like, I've learned a lot from watching and asking questions, you know, but there isn't really any, like, prep or feedback. Wow.

It's very much. I mean, there's prep for the show, but there's not. like there's no coaching about like your performance or your energy or whatever. Like it's very much like how we treat quarterbacks. Get your ass out there. You got it or you don't. Another draft is coming. He ain't have it.

He ain't have it. We're not invested in developing, which is fine. Like it's a model and it works just fine. One of the things, and this is a thing worth sharing for anybody who has. as these type of aspirations. But one of the things that I learned, and Stephen A's bit is really, you can learn a ton from just watching the way that he

talk about a natural. But one of the things I learned from him was, first take, he didn't say this. So I don't want to put words in his mouth, but this is what I deduce from conversations and working with him. But first take is not a competition. At least this is the way that I see it.

Right. It's not me being an arguer versus you, Stephen A, who's going to win, even though that's what it looks like. It's actually, and this again, I don't want to put this on Stephen A. This is what I got from Stephen A from watching and working with him. It's me and Stephen A against you, the audience, right? It's like, you want to change the channel. how can me and Stephen A create something that is so interesting

that you don't want to change the channel? And like, I got that because one thing that he's great at is he's comfortable with being made fun of and he's comfortable with losing the argument. And we think most people would think that he's not. And so, of course, the instinct for someone competitive like me and anybody, you'll notice this.

Like, people who go on first take for the first time, they're trying to win. Right, right, yeah. And during my first time, And of course, you do first take a bunch of times with other people before you are, like, promoted to being allowed to yell at Stephen A. So you get up there to Stephen A, you're like, all right, I'm ready. I got all my facts, got all my numbers. I know what his argument is going to be, and I'm going to go ahead and undercut that.

And that was what he said to me during the commercial break. He was like, I don't care if you cut me off, but cut me off after I get my point out. And it's like, I don't care, like, I don't care if you, like, refute my argument, but don't pre-refute. my argument, we got a 20 minute A block, big dog. There's going to be time for you to talk. And like, you're coming in there like, man, you know what? If I say this, this and this, he ain't going to be able to say nothing. You know who loses if Stephen A ain't got nothing to say?

All of us. Yeah, that's bad. We got 15 minutes before the commercial come. And people are like, oh, there ain't nothing really to talk about. But yeah, that is one of the things that I learned early on as like, you, we on. the same team. Okay. I'm going to go to a lightning round, but I got a

final question here. What's your end game? Because you did mention for people that don't know, Dominique was one of the writers for the American sports story, Aaron Hernandez. You know, obviously, like, there's a lot of things that can be done in media, right? Like, you got off at the C.O. role at Meta Lock Media. And maybe you

could do Monday night foot. What, like, what do you want to do? Like, have you even thought about that, that far ahead? Yeah, I mean, I think about it a lot. I told you about one of our show maxims. Another show maxim is tradeoffs. And I think that being conscious of that all the time is that there are tradeoffs with every decision you make, everything you pursue. So, like, there are lots of things out there that are interesting to me.

And I, as you can see, by some of my track record, is like, I want to chase it all. I want to do everything. but also like I want to be a good father and husband and doing that you can't do all of those things at the same time. So I think I've definitely looked around at like my colleagues and people who like got into this business at the same time as me. And so many of them are so much more focused and so much more like ambitious than I was in this industry. and I don't like have regrets looking back on it, but I do kind of also recognize that like, they love this and want to like win at it

in a way that feels a lot like how I felt about football. And like that same fire is like, I don't look over at people who are doing better than me in this career and think like, he's doing better than me or she's doing better to me. I just don't go like, hey, do your thing. There's a level of like comfort is the wrong word, complacency see the wrong word.

I don't know what the right word is, but there's like a level of chill that comes along with like being in an industry that you didn't plan on being in and one that you don't like want to conquer. I look at these people who are like dominating this thing and like, that kind of like Stephen A, we talk about it. a bunch and he's he's like the king of sports media. That contract looks great. Yeah.

That schedule. Man, yeah. Brough. I mean, building a whole network on the side and supporting hours at the same time. Like, man, ain't a life that I want. Yeah, right.

Right. Yeah, I mean, my wife wouldn't allow me to have that kind of life. It's not, yeah. So, I mean, I say all I just say, I don't know. Like, I have no intentions of lady. I just signed an extension for three more years. years at ESPN, so I have no intentions of leaving sports media, but I also don't have, like, which is kind of embarrassing, I don't have like some super gold to take over everything.

Like, I'm good with how stuff is. You have a good life, man. You have a good life. You live where you want to live. You get to do that. All right. Well, now I'm going to go, I'm a legion to the lightning round. You're getting your own lightning around here, Domit.

Yes, I made it. Welcome to the Lightning Round, a Jill Anderson special. Who's your favorite person in media to talk footballers? It's got to be fast for the lightning round. I think I'd say, yeah, it depends. See, I'm not doing a lightning round, right?

It just depends on the way that we're talking about it. Because, like, I really enjoyed talking to Mina about football because she puts a lot of effort into it, but we see the game from a completely different way. And it's always really well supported, her feelings. but I see things differently for different reasons. And so it's random. But her and I always, like,

I feel like when I talk to Mina, there's always going to be something that I didn't think about and something that she didn't think about. There's always like a new idea born of that conversation, which I'm not sure is true with everybody else that I talk to. What non-former player knows the most about the game in your opinion? Non-former player knows the most about the game. All the former players, man.

Damn. I don't. All right, well, give me the former player, man. The one that knows the most. You like respect. You like shit. That's not. I'm,

ha, ha, ha, ha. I suck at lightning rounds, man. Man, look, man. There's just going to be a lot of feelings hurt. And also, I mean, I don't care about the feelings as much as I'm just going to regret it because I'm like, no, that wasn't the right answer. I would change. I'd say Marcus Spears for number one.

Okay. And Meena Kimes for number two. Because I think I actually enjoy, like with Mena, it's, or excuse me, with Marcus, it's always fun. And there's some level of shorthanded experience. So like I'd say Marcus Spears, I love talking to him about football. We don't do it on TV or on podcasts very often, but we do it enough. But yeah, I think Marcus and then Mena is the non-football person who I think knows the most. Who was your favorite football player growing up?

Barry Sanders. Wow. Tell me about the best game of your life. best game of my life probably my freshman year I was supposedly redshirting we had a surprisingly good season and had only lost one game

and then we had Clemson coming to play us at University of Maryland and if we could win that game we would be ACC champs for like the first time in like 30 years and the week before we lost the Florida State

and I was redshirting in the corner who was playing there gave up like three touchdowns to Javon Walker so I guess Javon Walker burned him and burned my red shirt so that I was starting I was starting at the next game

it was an 8 o'clock primetime like Thursday night game against Clemson the winner and we won we go to the we won the conference and we go to the Orange Bowl and that was my first start and I had a sack and like three passes broken up and was named a player of the game.

And yeah, I got Woody Danzler. I got Woody Danzler. Okay, Woody Danzler, man. That's the name right there, bro. Got that ass Woodrow. But, yeah, that was a really cool game to be like, and they threw oranges on the field. And it was all cool. I was a player to game.

And then it was college. So it was great. Oh, okay. I already know. Okay. Oh, man. Man, I'm fantastic. I'm going to tell you about the reason I wanted to go to the university of Maryland.

They just never showed no interest. But anyway, I know the reason. Yeah. Okay. Well, there's a specific reason. Now that I know that you were there, now that you were there, I don't know. I'm going to run a man by you. Okay.

Who did you play against in college who you thought was going to be a beast in the NFL, but it never panned out? Oh, it never panned out. I, yeah. I can tell you so, like, there, I was a little bit arrogant and maybe still am. So there were a couple experiences where I had got slapped in the face with the truth. So like Calvin Johnson was a freshman at Georgia Tech. And I was like a senior at that point. And was like all American and all this stuff.

He's 6'5, yeah, whatever, you're a freshman. Nah, bro. I know. I know we talk about these young guys like they could have played as freshmen. Calvin Johnson, add him to the list. Okay. Thank the Lord that the quarterback then was Reggie Ball.

Oh, man. Poor Reggie Ball. Yeah, but I mean, poor Reggie Ball. He was lucky. Well, I just always kind of feel like he ain't ever, you know, it's like that's what he's known for. And the other time was Anquam Bolden. So, like, I'm a fast, like, quick guy and, like, watching tape on Ankhorn Bolden and turn that game.

I was, all right, I know he's getting all this hype, but, I mean, he doesn't look particularly quick. Like, he's not going to run by me. Florida State ran two routes. They ran, or three routes. They ran a post, a out, and a go. It was all right. This going to be easy. And gave me the blues so much so that I held a grudge.

And when I, we played in. him my rookie year, I was in Denver and he was in Arizona. I tried to fight him. The whole first half, I tried to fight Anquam Bolden because of the way that he bullied me in college. And eventually, eventually at halftime, we were like the half ended and we all hit off. He was like, what is like, I forgot exactly what he said, but essentially like, the fuck are you doing?

Like, we had work. And I came to my census. It was like, yeah, fair point. We ended up being teammates in Baltimore. He's a great guy. I love him. but he was right. I was holding on to a two-year-old grudge

just because he gave me the blues. There it go, man. The thing I remember about Enquoble is he played a game with a broken jaw, man. Yeah, he's tough as shit. And that was, again, he wasn't going to outrun me, he wasn't going to out quick me, but I was trying to press him,

just ran through me the whole damn game, and I couldn't do nothing about it. Man, Antoine Baldwin. Well, shout out to the name. Who has known who you were? that you were surprised at in who you are? Everybody?

Well, man. Don't be that. You already, we already know you got a healthy confidence. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I mean, it's like NBA guys, you know, like those recognize,

that's the weird thing. Like, Jason Tatum was like, I was in Vegas one time a few years ago and like checking in, there's like a little side checking. I'm at the side check in and Jason Tatum walks in. And you know how it is when you're around somebody that's,

when you see somebody as famous, and particularly basketball players, they're super big. So, like, you get caught looking for a second. Right. But, like, I looked over. He was, like, looking at me. And I was like, oh. And so then I was, like, introduce myself because I can feel.

And it's like, oh, these, I forget, like, the amount of TV, but the amount of times, hours that you're on TV in places that people are all the time. And for a number of years, like, you just, become familiar. I think that's what happens so often. It's like, I'll get people who don't even know where they know me from. Yeah, your face looks familiar. But it's, it's them like Anthony Mackie, like actors and stuff like that. Because the funny thing is, who has the time to watch a bunch of ESPN? There's a lot of time as celebrities. It's like musicians and athletes and actors who also have that same

free window and you'd be surprised. All right. Last two. Favorite football stadium to play in? Playing in Death Valley and Clemson was pretty great. Yeah. I mean, I'm from Baltimore, so when I got to play for the Ravens, that was pretty dope too. Well, the actual favorite place to watch a game.

Favorite place to watch a game. Not. What is it called? Northwest now? Where to commanders play, that's hard to get in the air. That's not a great experience. The fact that, I guess, Camden Yards. Okay. All right.

Yeah, that was kind of cool. I only like baseball like that, but Camden Yards is dope, man. It was nice. I've only ever been to Camden Yards once, and it was the only time in MLB history that they played a game with no fans in the stands. Ugh, yeah, you missed out. I missed out.

The funny thing is everybody copied off of Canning Yards, and Canning Yards isn't as special as it once was, but it is still the original like modern stadium. Yeah, I like the little area around it. It's kind of cool, too. It's kind of dope. So you get a little bar. I love Baltimore.

That's Dominic Foxworth, folks. The Dominic Foxworth show, ESPN, get up. First take. Brother, thank you so much for coming and join us today, bro. No problem, man. Hopefully we can do it again at some point when you start the new 25 for 25. Oh, yeah, man. Well, shoot.

Don't let me not see you before then. All right, brother, for sure. All right. Back with Brian and Joel. first of all, that was an awesome interview. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. It was a lot of fun.

I enjoyed the hell out of that. I'm so glad Woody Danzler's name has now been mentioned on the press box podcast. I mean, that's the first, right? That has not come up before. Yeah, that is one thousand percent. A former Dallas Cowboy Great, by the way. There you go. Mm-hmm.

Forgot about that. You were trying to kick off four touchdown. Yeah, he had a little something up there. A couple points I wanted to draw your attention to. Okay. That Dominic made. he was talking about how stuff being written and said about NFL teams, stuff that we as viewers and listeners are processing, is actually coming from the top of the organization. They're reaching out to people like Dominic Foxwood.

That was very intriguing to me. Yeah, man. I mean, I've heard people say this before. And I'm trying to remember if it was Colin Cowherd or whoever. But it kind of helped me to understand like, why am I hearing this story? Why is this story out? Who wants us to know this information? And when you think about a story in that way, often you're like, oh, man, front offices

leak all the time. They want us to know stuff all the time. Yes. And I feel like we're sophisticated about it when it involves personnel movement. So Micah Parsons gets traded and we start reading, hey, you know, Micah Parsons is lying on a table during a preseason game. I know where that came from. I know why I'm reading that.

Right, right. But when it's about actual play on the field, I think we're less sophisticated. That's fine. That's part of the run. In knowing that that might be the way somebody's describing the way a cornerback is playing. Whose fault that play? I just think most of us that aren't grinding tape lack that kind of expertise.

Absolutely. You may not be able to see the vectors of the information. Absolutely. I loved what he said about the lack of feedback you get in the media. Yeah, man. Everyone smiles and tells you you're good and then you get laid off. It is a frustration of mine. And I'm glad we got a chance to talk about it because I was just like,

yo, like, if you play football, people will say things to you and about you that you really just kind of got to swallow. You know, it's just like, all right, you know, I suck there. But it can help you. Like, you at least know where you stand. And you know this from working in media. Like very rarely do you know where you stand, you know. Like, you know, the assignments you get, maybe the opportunities.

you get sometimes hint at it, but very rarely do people tell you you stink, you know. You hear that about ESPN in particular all the time, just because they've got so many employees, right? It's one of those where, and I found this, even when you're critical of somebody in broadcasting, sometimes that has the effect of drawing them to you. Yeah. Because you are thinking about what they're doing or talking or writing about what they're doing at a level that maybe no one else in their life is. Absolutely. Or no one else is. willing to say to them. I've had that experience more than once. And they may disagree. They may think I'm full of shit, but they will want to talk about it. And you can tell that you're filling

that hole somehow in their lives and their careers. The editors in my life that I'm closest with are the ones who were the most willing to be honest or critical about the work that I was producing. It's a great gift. It really is. He also had a note about how some of the best ex-athletes on TV are the people who are not Hall of Famers. Yeah. Not all pros. Case in point. Yeah.

The NBA finals. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. That's always such a fascinating thing to me. I think of Chris Collinsworth as being one of the ultimate examples of that. The guy who played two Super Bowls for the Bengals was a really, really good receiver, really good receiver. But it's not a Hall of Famer.

Uh-uh. And often think when those people come into broadcasting, there is something left on the table for them. Yeah. Right. They weren't a Hall of Famer in the other thing, but what if they're going to be one of the greatest ever at the new thing? Man, do you think people would be shocked to know that Chris Collinsworth was a really

good NFL wide receiver? Because I remember watching play. Yeah. Yes. Because Chris Collinsworth has been doing TV since 1990. Is that right? 35 years ago. Man.

Oh, my God. Yeah. That's, we're old. Yeah. Yeah. But it's like, you know, that's, I just do think there's that, you know, I thought, Tony Romo was kind of that guy because like, hey, man, all the dreams that didn't come true on the football field can now come true in broadcast. You could be one of the greatest ever, maybe the greatest ever.

I can become John Matt. But may not get there with him, but, you know, that was on the table in a way. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, that's really, yeah. It's just like, okay, like I can dedicate myself to this. There's up the, the lane is wide open. Football is much tougher for that to happen, right?

Because there's so many things that can get in your way and prevent you from becoming the greatest. a lot of time. I mean, just starting with talent. But, you know, in TV, it's wide open for you. Last thing is I loved him calling you a door-knocking-ass journalist. You know why? Because that's why I love you, too. Because you're a door-knocking-ass journalist. Hell yes. Thank you. I appreciate it. It was a very nice compliment, and I appreciate it. It made me smile. He is Joel Anderson, the door-knocking-ass journalist. I'm Brian Curtis. Put-backs in Magic. By Kyle Crichton. coming up on the press box next week, we're back in our usual slots,

forgive all the schedule changes this week. Shoemaker is back on Monday. We're going to have tons of audio from a very full NFL weekend. Joel, you and I back next Thursday. We're going to have a special episode of the press box, I do believe. Oh, okay. Maybe something of a great planes sequel to our Dallas Cowboys episode. Oh.

Could be some interesting fodder there. Okay. And you know there will be more lukewarm ticks about that. the media. Talk to you then, Joel. Looking forward to it, man.