The Press Box - Ep. 117: 'Ringer Wrestling Podcast' With Steve Kazee

Episode Date: May 24, 2016

The Ringer's David Shoemaker and actor Steve Kazee on Cody Rhodes's release from WWE, Charlotte Flair's growing star, Monday-night ‘Raw,’ and ‘Extreme Rules 2016.’ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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To start using Seat Geek, download the free. free seat geek app or go to seatgeek.com. Welcome once again to the ringer wrestling podcast. My name is David Chewaker. I swear the wrestling podcast will have a different name in the not too distant future. I am joined here today with the world famous actor, friend of the ringer, Steve Kazee. How you doing, man? I'm good, man.

How are you? I'm really good. You might recognize Steve from sitting very, very close to the ring at many important events. when I come by to say hi and the security escorts me away. Steve is the very attractive man in the background of the picture. Anyway, this has been,

we just recorded the first episode last week. And still no title for the show. Still no new title for the show. Listen, man, we're very busy trying to launch a website right now. I got one for you. Okay. Smartest guy in the room. Oh, wow, I really like that.

They're pushing really hard for like one-word titles right now, but actually I think that's really great. Listen, man, you can have full credit I'll give it to you. That's good. A lot of people have been pushing for King of the Ringer. And we, and asking if, like, that's absolutely been on. It was like, it was like the last entry on my list of names that I came up with. And just thinking it would just like, you know, it would kind of like get the bad taste of some of the other ones out of people's mouths.

But no one was going to pick King of the Ringer. Right. And like, everybody here at the Ringer is like, oh, yeah, that's great. Not just sticking a little bit. All right. Okay. So, but, but, yeah, so we'll see what people have to say about. that. I have some much better ideas, and we'll see if it works.

Anyway, we did our first episode last week, and I'm so grateful that you, I mean, that you're here for the second episode. This is our new official day. We're on Tuesdays every week now. All right. And hopefully we'll be able to, we'll be able to have some fun every Tuesday. We got a lot to talk about, though. A lot has happened since Thursday. We're going to talk about Extreme Rules. We're going to talk about Raw. Right off the top, though, I want to touch on this feels like real news.

Cody Rhodes last week asked for his release from WWE and got it. You know, there have been a lot of wrestlers

who ask who have, who have been, well, there have been a lot of wrestlers who have been released of late and this is,

this is the time of year. And one day was like, what, seven people. Yeah. Every year, you know,

they just got to, they tighten the belt at the same time, which seems really, it just seems sad. But I mean, every time it happens. But,

you know, there were rumors that Wade Barrett was just sort of like, ready to go looking for the next phase of his life for his career or whatever. Cody Rhodes, though, is just sort of like the, like, the, the, I mean, it was, it seemed like really uncomfortable. You know, it wasn't, it did look like he was trying to move on, but like, he was just fed up.

Yeah, there's clearly something going on behind the scenes there, right? Because you read that whole statement, and when he sort of lays out the writer's room and says, like, these 10 guys are amazing, but these two guys at the top. And then to go so far as to say the one guy's like, you know, trying to get with every developmental diva that they had. It was just, it's kind of brutal, you know, but I thought his statement was pretty impassioned. I thought he was respectful. I didn't think he really sort of burned the WWE in any way. I mean, but I think he was frustrated. You can hear it. He's like, I'm not, I don't want to do this face paint thing anymore. Like, I'm a great wrestler and I'm sort of like

mid-level jobber at this point. Yeah, that part of it, I mean, that's the weird, that's the roughest part. Be one thing if he was just like headlining the stardust or whatever. But yeah, the statement was was really strange. I mean, not strange, it was really, like, pointed. It was, it was surprising at how pointed it got at those times. Yeah. Say, yeah, you said the, the, the two head writers, one was trying to be Brian Gawertz, who, I'm sure most people, he wasn't like a big public figure, but was like the head writer

of WWE for like a decade. Yeah. And is a really nice guy. I mean, he was, he's now running the Rock's production studio, I think. So, like, you know, there's a future for you wrestling fans out there. Just, you just got to commit yourself. But, but, but yeah. And then, and yeah, the other guy, I mean, wow, I mean, that's, that was, that was pretty crazy.

I will say, I will say, uh, one big, big props to Cody for, for opening or for like, you know, tagging the statement by saying no podcasts or tell all nonsense, which is, which is really, you know, he's very, very old school of him. Um, and I don't know, like, this means absolutely nothing, but I love Cody the wrestler, but he, but the first time I did, I think the first time I did media at WrestleMania, I interviewed him. I think back when I was doing the podcast with Rosenberg, we interviewed him and saw him at some other function, like WW function that I wasn't really supposed to be at, like three days later. Yeah. And he's like, he was the only person in the room who like fully recognized me

and acknowledged me. I always got that vibe from him that he was a very sort of genuine, like you said, he's old school, you know, he, he, I mean, when you come from that lineage, when you come from somebody like Dusty Rhodes who has such a love for the sport and for the craft and for all of it, he, he has that inside of him. And his brother does as well. Like, his brother is also one of the nicer guys that I've sort of seen around there. But, you know, it's, he, I feel like he's going to go somewhere else. He's going to land at another promotion, and he's going to do well. He's a good wrestler.

Yeah. And he's got that thing. But they just never figured out, again, it's WWE, right? He's not seven foot tall. He's not a big, giant beast of a man. And he's like the Dolph Ziegler's of the world. Like, where do you, what do you, does Dolf Ziegler ever going to hold the championship belt? Yeah.

It's probably just never going to happen. Yeah, no, it's true. I mean, the sad thing is that I remember in the early days, I mean, when Cody was, I don't remember if it was when he was with Orton or what, if it was legacy or whenever it was. But I remember one of the WWE writers telling me that Cody was just Vince McMahon's platonic ideal of a wrestler, that he had the look. He was like, he had come out here and like studied acting for a while,

which was like, you know, at that point at least was a big Vince thing. And he had the family. He had the legacy. like he had all the pieces and he put him together as well as anybody has. He was just really, really great. He sold Stardust. Like he sold Stardust for a very long time.

That's a Herculean task. Yeah, no, it's totally true. I remember when it debuted, I was like, this is great. We've had so many iterations of Cody Rhodes. Right. And he's been very bold to like switch the character up and stuff. But I remember when Stardust happened,

I was like, oh, this is like, it made me suddenly see the future of Cody Rhodes, which was, oh, he could be like Mick Foley. He has all these characters he can fall back on. He can do... Because he was sort of just the pretty boy, even when he had the mustache, when he had the mask.

It was all variations on that. Right. And I just thought that, man, there's like... There's just so much you could have done with him. So there was a lot more to be done with Cody Rhodes. It's, I mean, I'm with you. You know, you try not to get too invested in people when they come and go in the company

because it's just sort of the way it is. I mean, I could count, you know, for days on the wrestlers who I've loved who have sort of just disappeared. And, you know, I go down that Wikipedia hole of like, what's this guy doing now? But, you know, he's different for some reason. It feels different. It's sort of, it feels like a tragedy.

It does. It does. And I mean, just two quick things. And we got to change the subject. But one, you know, Dave Meltzer said that he got the impression it was Vince and Triple H, but more Vince who just were resistant to the change. It wasn't specifically the writing staff. But it does kind of seem like a bigger problem in that, like, you know,

there's a very limited number for a company that has however many you know seven hours of television network television every week and then a 24 hour over the top you know video channel they have a very like very narrow

very narrow but a breadth of like storytelling you know I mean it's like there's only just it's just enough to fill up a pay per view card next month we're not trying to do side storylines or anything like I mean I guess superstars does have some weird continuing storylines but like you know, it's, there should be room for Cody Rhodes to be doing something important that's not, even if, even if he's not, doesn't make it onto the pay-per-view. Something.

You have to have an awareness that Stardust is no longer working and figure out how to repackage this guy. And like you said, it seemed like it was ripe for the taking because he, you have that sort of crazy like, like, like, Cactus Jack McFoly, like mankind. You could have gone so many different. They were playing with that idea of like the Cody, Cody, Cody calls. But it just seems like a lost opportunity to me. Yeah. It's really tough. And it would be nice, I mean, you know, I watched a bunch of old ECW stuff last week in preparation for extreme rules.

And, you know, I was sort of wistful for that point in time when WW was just like sharing talent with ECW. You know, it's like, we can't quite make this guy work. Just take them for a while. And I guess they can do that with NXT now, which makes it weird. The strange thing about NXT, though, is it feels like it's like going down to the minor leagues. Whereas it didn't feel that way with the ECW stuff. It just felt like a separate promotion. and at times, I mean, it never really felt on an equal level to WWE,

but it did feel like it didn't lose prestige. Yeah. And not saying that NXT does lose prestige, but if you're in NNXT and then you go to WBE and then you go back to NXT, it feels like a step back to. Because you know what it is. I mean, at some point they're just going to have to send a couple of Cody Roads types down there and just say, and then let them come back up and get pushes just to a stat just to get that taste sort of out of the mouth.

You know, like it's not hard to imagine a situation. Because you go to the NXT shows, the fans are more into that than anything WVE puts on. So there should be a way to figure this out. Or, you know, just, maybe this is all work. You know, maybe he's just going to go work in Japan and he's still getting paid. I would love it. His wife was, you know, was still calling, we're still doing the ring entrances on Sunday,

which, you know, not that she would have been fired because he asked for her release, but they were, it seemed like maybe it was all in my head. It seemed like they were putting the camera on her a little bit more closely than usual. Yeah, we'll see. Anyway, enough about that. Let's talk about Raw before we get to extreme rules. I think that there were a lot of interesting things that happened on Raw. The most notable, I guess, is Seth Rons and his enormous arms,

making their first full promo and then managing to grab the crowd by its throat and turn himself back heel from Babyface, which is... It's amazing. It's impossible to make a return as a heel. I think that space, that's, unless you're, unless you're, especially if you're really, or Yoko Zuna or somebody. If you're a really good heel, you're exactly right.

It's hard to make a return as a heel because people have missed you so much. The only time I can, I can remember somebody pulling something like this off was when Jericho came back and didn't talk. And that was just like the sort of like postmodern way to do this because he knew that no matter what he said he would get cheered. Yeah, he's going to pop with the crowd, easy. But Rollins actually just cut a promo and it worked. Yeah.

Well, I mean, it shows you also too. came out and cut that promo last night, I was sitting there watching and I just had this realization that like, we've really missed this guy being around. Like, I'm not a Roman Raines hater. I'm not in that crew of people, but it's the differences are glaring. The only sort of, I think the only person who's filled the gap a bit would be Kevin Owens. I mean, his sort of level of heel is like so old school.

I mean, the fact that he will call. You know, people on Twitter, he will just basically go full heel all day long on Twitter and never really break that facade. Yeah. He's one of my emerging favorites. In some ways, oh, yeah. In some ways, like, it was good that Rollins went out just because the rest of the roster sort of rose up a little bit. What do you think we would have gotten this NXT push? Were it not for Sina, Orton, Rollins, all these guys being out?

Because otherwise, you know, you're top heavy and I don't know you have spots for people like Apollo Cruz. and Kevin Owens. Yeah, I mean, you can, and it's very, I mean, AJ Styles has been one of the top two or three most over guys in the company since he debuted, but you can imagine a world where despite all those cheers, the people making decisions were like, yeah, well, we already got enough guys in the main event, you know. Even if they would have called him up, you could have been looking at like, you know, Dolph Sigler, AJ Styles matches for, for a while.

Or just Jericho styles for like a year. That's how. It's just let it go. Let it keep going. No. But yeah, it felt really right to have it to have Rollins back in the main event. And like, you know, there are a lot of ways they could have done it, but they just decided to go straight in to like that you're the new number one contender. You're fighting at the next pay-per-view.

I mean, it makes a certain sort of sense. And they told a really, really good story with, and we'll touch on this when we get to the to the pay-per-view. But they told a good story from start to finish with A.J. and Roman Raines. I agree. And I feel like with Rollins, with Rollins, we have the opportunity for another like, actually. actually well-told story. Yeah, I agree. Well, you, I mean, look, we have yet to resolve a lot of the shield things. Like, they're still floating around out there. I mean, I don't think we've ever had a moment where, you know, it's like, I get you now. I mean, even WrestleMania, like, you know,

Rollins came out. He took the belt at that match. We never really got that resolution. So that's going to be all on the table. But it's going to be interesting to me to see, you know, you have a crowd who hates Roman rains. I mean, it's starting to shift. I do kind of, you're starting to hear a lot of cheers in there. But when you get Seth Rollins in there, I don't know who's going to get booed. I don't know who's going to be the bad guy. And it might be looking at an Austin thing where, you know, you try to make somebody a heal as much as you want. You're going to make an anti-hero. Yeah. He's just going to be the guy that gets cheered for being the bad guy. Well, I mean, kudos to WW for, I mean, they're not deaf, right? So, like, they know, they, they can understand that this is going on. And they just

let the AJ Roman reigns match happen. Yeah. I mean, certainly they, like, tried to push the AJ heel thing a little bit in that last week just to see if it took. Yeah. But, I mean, honestly, like that, the Extreme Rules main event was the closest thing to a heel versus heel main event that the WWE has ever had made. No, I'm sure there have been other ones. But, like, that's, I mean, it was, they just let the, they let the crowd kind of pick their side. You know, and that's, I feel like that's the direction like that has to go. You can't fight it. I've said this a thousand times.

Like, if they're going to boo Roman Raines, then you just got to go out there and make them boo you harder. Yeah. You cannot try to oversell somebody. It's never going to work. It will never work. Yeah. No, I think, I mean, I think that there's a lot of truth to that.

The other thing, I mean, there were a couple of big things that, that, you know, bear some little mention Charlotte kicked her dad to the curb on Monday night. So sad, right? Yeah. Rick Flair crying in the ring like that. I sort of felt like there was some truth in that. I think Rick Flair was sad that he doesn't get to be on TV anymore. I think that's the...

He's just, he's got to... He's got to go spend more time in, like, Charlotte, North Carolina. She's really good, man. Tate's really upset, because... She is really good. Like, she's going to be... I mean, she always was. It was a weird promo.

It got a lot of mixed reactions, but on Twitter and stuff. And I think most of the mixed reactions were just because it was, like, it actually had more personality might not be the right word, but it was sort of more, more, had more character, more specificity to her as a person than a lot of the things we've seen the women do. Yeah. That mean that she, it didn't seem like this was a really overproduced promo. It just sort of felt like she was really sort of reacting to the crowd and reacting to the moment. And, and, I mean, she was acting, she was capital A acting, but like, you know. She's getting better. She's getting like, you know, in the beginning, like when people like the rock were, you know, Rocky My Via and all

that, you know, you sort of see, if you go back and, I mean, I love the network, dude. Let me just go ahead and say, I spend so much time watching old pay-per-views. Oh, yeah. I just love it. But you see the old guys, you know, who are now huge stars. And you watch them learn. You watch them get better and better and better. I think she's getting better and better and better.

She's like hearing the crowd, responding to the crowd. I think she's going to end up, we're going to look back in, you know, 10 years. And I think she'll still be around and still just be, like, one of the top in the business. She's just really good. Yeah. So she's, she's got all the tools. Her time in NXT was basically a matter for just like putting them together. It was just sort of like one moment where you're like, oh, wait, like, she went from being somebody's daughter to being like the best wrestler in NXT, you know, of men or woman, you know.

And then the character stuff's going to take longer. It always does. Yeah. But she's figuring it out, though. She is. Enzo is back. Oh, so happy. The Simmons household is very excited about this.

My household as well. I love those guys, man. I have always loved those guys. I just think that they are like, it's so beautiful and weird and out there. And those guys are just, I love them. Yeah, Inzo celebrated his return by going,

it's like he went like full Inzo. It wasn't just that like the flat top and like a torn t-shirt. He was wearing the coat. He had his hair long in the back. This was like Inzo, this is like Beyonce's Super Bowl performance level. Enzo.

It was like lemonade. This was Enzo's lemonade for sure. He was really all that. He got so excited to drop the mic in the beginning, couldn't catch the mic, and jump off the stage and go down and get the mic and come back on him. He was like, he was wired for sound. He was amped up, man. I love that guy.

I said this on the show, I think last week, but like one of the true, like, he's one, he's, I met him one time, like, a couple years ago at WrestleMania, I guess a year ago at WrestleMania. And he was just like the biggest wrestling mark you've ever met in your life. He just, like, he was like eating a sandwich and someone. introduced me and he like made me sit down and we started talking about like old school wrestling and talking about like him and his like the handful of guys in nxte that have basically like a group chat that's nonstop about old wrestling matches on youtube and on the network and i was just like

that's the he's not the guy that you would immediately assume was that guy but you can tell by the way it comes through when he performs because he's just so passionate he loves it and and it's not just trying to get himself over this isn't a basketball player in 1985 who blew out his knee and decided to be a wrestler like this guy is he's like he's watching he's watching he's watching watched it his whole life, has wanted to do it his whole life. And you can tell, like, it's nothing more important to him than being a wrestler. It's so good to see him back. The big high point for me of Monday night was first round of the Money in the Bank qualifiers,

or I guess the first batch of money in the bank qualifiers. It's crazy how good, maybe this is like a rising tide lifts all boats thing. It's crazy how much fun an episode of Rock can be when there's real stakes, you know, like where all the matches were really heading, like, are there for a reason. You're earning a thing. and obviously you can't do it every week. But, you know, I really, like, it was cool to see, I'm going to run through these matches.

Sammy Zane over Seamus, Cesar over the Miz, Jericho over Apollo Cruz, although Seamus beat up Apollo Cruz before the match. So Cruz got a little bit of the storyline pass. Ambrose beat Ziegler and Owens beat A.J. Stiles. Now, let's set aside for a moment the fact that A.J. Stiles has lost twice and two nights. I don't think it's going to be a huge detriment to his career long term.

I think he's going to be all right. But the crazy thing is you look at this and like, I mean, you can say what you want about Apollo Cruise. You can say what you want about AJ Styles, but the right guy won every one of these matches, I think. Yeah. I mean, look, I am a little over Jericho at this point. Sure. I'm sort of like ready for Fossey to go back out on tour for like another six months and then let him come back. Totally legit.

But you're not going to put Apollo Cruz over, right? You're not going to, Jericho's going to win that match. every time. But I agree with you. Like it's, uh, it seems to me they're going to be setting it up the right way. And I'm not a big money in the bank fan either. Like, I feel like it's gotten a little stale. The Rollins year was good. But before that, it just has felt like a little stale. It's felt like stale after Rollins. Um, I feel like we need another thing there to sort of like have the, the contender determined. I tell you what we need is, we need somebody like, and maybe Kevin Owens is the guy who has the storyline balls to like win it and then say, I'm not carrying

around the stupid briefcase. Right. You know, it should be like the king of the ring where like certain dudes can carry the briefcase. Like they would, certain dudes would go full crown and king of the ring. Only if it suits the character. If it suits the storyline.

But like the briefcase is just so silly. Yeah. I mean, I guess at this point they sell so many plastic briefcases that they can't stop doing it. I think that's the thing, right? Once you get yourself locked into merchandise, like you kind of got to keep pushing the merchandise. Yeah, it's,

that's tough. I mean, there's not. Yeah. I mean, at the at the at the at the at the at the at the at the at the at the like the to get into the Cowboys Stadium oh yeah specifically said no no money in the bank briefcases which was just the funniest thing in the world because it's like like everybody if you go to the superstore that like the day before or the earlier that day wall full of them yeah oh and they've already sold five million yeah there's not like they're they're all stacked up in the middle like flat screen TVs on black Friday and people are just like diving at them and and and yet you can't bring them to like the one event you can't bring them to like the one event you can't bring like a 400 pound gold championship belt yeah but I guess that's a belt there's nothing you can really do I think they're there going on the fact that you paid so much money for those

replica belts you're never going to throw them into the ring whereas those money in the bank suitcases they were sort of flying in the rain there and you can't yeah you couldn't sneak something illicit in inside of a inside of a belt yeah um and listen man I mean there's money in the bank briefcases aren't cheap but the belts cost like four or five hundred dollars or something like like you need you can and you can only basically wear them to wrestling shows do you own a belt I don't I don't I would get one. I'm not going to lie. I've really, I've come close a couple of times to buying the million dollar belt.

That would be, that would be the one I would go for. That's a good one. Just because it's amazing and hilarious. Yeah, I like those old school retro intercontinental belts. Oh yeah. Yeah, those are always, I'm always like, uh, maybe I'll get one of those. Maybe. Yeah, it's someday.

I mean, you got to be really, I mean, I know you're like a famous Hollywood actor, but like you have to, at some point you have like a house that's big enough to have like a wrestling room. A wrestling room. And then that's okay. Yeah. Otherwise, like, you know. I certainly couldn't, like, take it to a pay-per-view. I can only, I got to draw a line somewhere.

Yeah, you got to find some other use for it. I'll wear a T-shirt. Yeah. But, yeah, I can't really pull the belt off. Wait, what is your favorite? What is your, what is your favorite old t-shirt that you wear, like, you wear on the house or wear to shows? Do you have, like, do you have a one that comes to mine? I had a great one for a while.

It's sort of, I wore it out, but it was Seth Rollins as Millhouse from the Simpsons. and it said everything is coming up Rawlins. And he was like holding the money in the bank suitcase. That was a good one. I had that one for a while. I wear my Bullet Club shirt quite a bit. That's a great shirt. There's a couple of shirts that are just like classic.

That was an instinct classic. The Austin 316 will always be a classic. You know, the Bullet Club one comes to mind. Kevin Owens, his merch is really good. Yeah, I really, he came, That merch started strong and it's, and it stayed pretty good. The, yeah, I have an Austin 316 shirt. It's a little bit, you know, it's a little bit that old school like starchy tight neck t-shirt.

So like I pull it out for events, but I'm not wearing that around the neighborhood. We're going to talk to the WWE about t-shirt quality. I've got to be honest. It's like, it's like sandpaper. Sometimes, some of them are better than others, but you're right. I have a couple of friends that say they just can't do it anymore. I mean, and I'll buy stuff. It doesn't even matter.

I'll wear it like once or twice and then. I'm sort of the same way. I've got a bag full of wrestling t-shirts. Yeah. Just like a bag full. I was watching the pay-per-view. I saw somebody in the crowd wearing something, and I don't even remember what it was. But, yeah, I was just in a room with a few, with like a handful of buddies.

And I was just like, well, it's that official time. I'm three beers in and going on www. shop.com. Oh, speaking of, I just bought the Shinske Nakamura, the artist, the artist one, where it's like the painting one. Oh, it's such a good show. Rob Schamburger, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got a few shirts that look really. really good.

That Becky Lynch one was really good too, I thought, with all the cogs for her hair. Sure. The steampunky cogs. Yeah. So, okay. So we're up to date. We're up to date on the clothing. Yeah.

That's really good. But yeah, it's a, I mean, there's, I don't know. I could wear, I could buy a wrestling shirt every day. Actually, I had, we didn't touch on this at the beginning of the show, but one of my buddies sent me the first Adam Rose T-shirt after I had just been singing his praises for like a month, right when he had like, when he was in NXT and right when he got the call up. Yeah. I was on the podcast, unnecessarily praising, over, over praising Adam Rose all the time,

because I really liked his theme song and his entrance. And one of my buddies, like, ironically, just ordered the shirt and sent it to me. It was like seafone greens, nothing I was ever going to wear. And he got released this week. I mean, he, like, got some, like, domestic violence stuff. So, like, that's on air with Adam Rose. But just to wrap up about Raw, we got, I mean, it's crazy to think that we live in a moment where Sammy Zane, Cizaro, and Kevin Owens are like our money in the bank leaders in the clubhouse.

I mean, Dean Ambrose, I guess. I don't know what's going on with Ambrose, but I was thinking about it last night. Like I don't know who I don't know who's going to carry that briefcase. I mean, it's a there's arguments to be made for each guy, but I sort of feel like it's going to be maybe like Cesarro, like somebody's been there for a little while longer. I can't, I don't see like, I think Owens, Zane are going to have their own work for a while. I think that's smart. We'll see.

I think that, I think, I'll talk about more of this, this more in coming weeks, but if you want to make, I mean, if you want to make some really broad general, like, comical generalizations, the briefcase would match Cesaro's new suit. Oh, so well. Like that would, it would be a good look. How are they not in trouble with James Bond people, by the way? Can we just ask that question? Like that is. James Bond didn't tear us clothes. They should be, they're more in trouble with the Chimendales people. The opening with the, like, the gun barrel thing, it's pretty spot on. Yeah, no, it's, it's, listen, if they don't get in trouble. for like all those NXT theme songs that sound exactly like radio hits from like 2004, then I can't imagine that anyone's going to get that mad. But yeah, I mean, I agree with Sammy Zane. I agree about Kevin Owens, although I could see Kevin Owens winning. Dean Ambrose, you know, I've joked before is like become the prop comic of WWE. So like he could, he could carry a briefcase. He could, he could.

But yeah, I mean, I think the greatest troll move would just to put Jericho over. I totally agree with you that we've like, but just the only, The only way you can make Jericho legit is to actually give him, is to project somehow that we should take him seriously. Right. And knowing that he has the briefcase might be the only way to make him like, I guess. I mean, he was great with AJ and he's been fine with Dean, but, you know, he's lost all of that mojo that he had to make other guys better. He can't do it anymore because no one, no one expects him, he can't do it as well anymore. He can't do it as well anymore.

I mean, he's still, you know, look, he's still one of the greats, the greatest for sure. But I'm with you. He can't do it anymore. I thought his match with AJ at WrestleMania was just really flat. It just felt flat to me. Yeah. The whole thing just felt flat. It's a tough spot.

I mean, it was at a weird place in the card and it's just, you know. They'd already wrestled like, what, four times, I feel like three times before that. Just, it didn't have the payoff for me. And I sort of felt the same way of the Ambrose, you know, taking away the highlight reel. And I just, I don't know. I love Dean Ambrose so much, man. I just don't know what they're doing with them. Yeah.

I really don't understand. I agree. I mean, it's tough when, well, I mean, specifically to AJ and Jericho, you know, there were years ago when Jericho and Punk fought at WrestleMania, I remember writing a piece saying, like, this is going to be like the savage steamboat, you know, like, the main, like, seeing it and the rock are doing their thing, but like these two are the, that was, that the main event, that must have been, but like these two guys are going to have the best match. But now, like, the best wrestling match at WrestleMania is sort of a terrible place to be, because the expectations are high and they're never going to get the chance

to do it. Never. Like, it would have to be, like, it would have to be, like, it would have to be, you know, it would still end up being John Cena versus somebody who was really great in the best wrestling match at WrestleMania in like a 60 minute something, but like it would have to be something extreme for them to actually make the time

and give them the spot on the card to make it worthwhile. Yeah. And I agree about Ambrose. It's just like you shrug your shoulders. Like they, he, I said it a million times. He works really well in the main event, but like they haven't figured out the,

the tempo for him when he's not there. No, and you know, you had like, even going back as far as like his Wyatt fans, family stuff. And it just, it seems like after the shield collapsed, he got on that like up, up, up, up, up, up, and then just would go away for a while. And then it's up, up, up, up, up, and go away for a while. And they just can't ever figure out how to get him over that last thing, which maybe with Rollins coming back, you know, you might have an interesting scenario making him money in the bank because then you've got, you know, those three guys up at the top again,

and it might give him someplace to be. Well, I mean, there's, you know, there's been longstanding rumors that that the W.E, the brain trust, is. thinks that three-way is, like, it's a WrestleMania-only match. They're kind of, they've been staying, I think they were going to do it this year, except Ron's got hurt. But it's, they think it's such a big moneymaker.

I'm with you on it. I mean, that's what I want to see. I'll wait, I'll wait for another year to see that at WrestleMania. I mean, but I mean, also, I mean, SummerSlam, they got to make, I mean, SummerSlam is basically WrestleMania Jr. now, so why not, at some point, you just got to do it.

It was like what I said, you know, we just said farewell to Rick Flair. But when he first teamed up with Charlotte, there were people saying, you know, it's too soon. This can be saved this for down the road. And my argument, especially for wrestling, but for all kinds of writing, is just like, throw everything at the wall. And you'll make yourself figure out something better in a month.

Yeah, because you don't know what's down the road, especially in this business. There you go. I mean, how many, how many, you know, Rollins fantasy matches that we think were inevitable in the next couple of months and we still haven't seen them? Yeah, because he got hurt. Yeah. Totally true. Well, let's not forget Ballard's going to be here very soon. So it's going to throw a wrench into everything.

Yeah, you think so? Oh, for sure. Wait, we got to go down the Ballard Rabbit Hole. What is your, what's your Finn Ballard take? Oh, I'm all in. Yeah. I'm 100 million percent all in. He's, I've never seen anybody, well, Nakamura.

Nakamura got the same sort of like crazy, pop, wild, like people as Finn Baller gets. Yeah. I just think he's, I feel like he's good looking. He's need some promo. work, but he's a good looking dude. He's got a great body look. He's got some awesome moves. I think he's going to, I think he'll go over big. I don't think it's going to be, I think people are dying for him to get up. Now, having said that, if they try to like recycle this club stuff, I don't know that that's going to be the best way to handle Finn Baller, but I'm pulling for Fin Valor.

AJ losing on Monday, and I'm not talking about Kevin Owen's winning. I just been putting is AJ not just going right into the money in the bank and he could end up there, who knows. But what leads me to believe that they're going to find a way to drag that this is going to be the Baller angle, that he's going to come up while... With AJ Stiles.

I started to do the same way. Yeah, work with him. You know, did you see, I don't know if... I mean, again, I'm going to show my nerdiness here, but Finn Baller tweeted this morning, I think, a picture from a still from Rawl last night where Anderson and Gallows are standing there and AJ's on the other side

and they're sort of like looking at each other. and he photoshopped himself doing like the thin stand that he does in all of his Instagrams in between them and it's got like I think like 6,000 retweets or favorites or what I mean people are like you know people are crazy for it I'd be interested to see it just because like it's one I mean I'd be interested in are you not a baller guy no I am I'm a huge baller guy I mean I said a couple years ago that he was the most he's the real he's the most sure thing they've had since John Cena like it's without a doubt but he but but unlike John Cena like you know John Cena is evidence that talking is more important than entering stuff, right?

I mean, and you can certainly go the other way, but you're not going to get to, you're not going to get to that John Cena level without being a talker. The great thing that he has that Sina never had, though, is he has that whole, like, entrance. He has the paint. He's got the demon, and then he's got the other, like, personality, the sexy leather jacket guy, which, you know, I always love, I always love the difference, like, when you decide to be the sexy leather jacket guy or the demon guy. or, you know, the Jack the Ripper guy from NXT Dallas.

He's, uh, yeah, I mean, he's got, he's got everything. And I guess you're right, the charisma broadly defined is not, like, he has plenty of it, you know. I mean, if Roman Raines can get over with a handful of people, I think Finn Baller is going to be just. Yeah, we'll talk about Roman Raines in a sec. Roman Raines got over, you know, with the help of the entire WWB machine and we can only hope. I mean, like, WWE just needs to not, oh, I can cuss on this podcast. WWE is to not fuck up Finn Baller. I was going to ask if we could swear.

You can cuss. Yeah, don't fuck it up. That's it. But like, but they also need to get behind him. I mean, they can't, they can't just put him out there and see what, and see if it works. That said, one of the most intriguing things about if he comes up in this, in this, you know, bullet club, whatever storyline is that this is a story that will rest 100% on fans like outside of like extra WWE knowledge, right? It doesn't, this isn't existing in the W. It's like, it's like Owens versus Zane, except both of them have like WWE approved names and they worked it through an XT.

T and all this kind of stuff. This is going to be such a weird, like just a, just an alien storyline. But it could also work, for that reason, it could work. I mean, we're all sitting here going like, please don't give us the club. Like, let's don't do this. Let's find something new for all these. I mean, these outfits that they've got those two guys in. Like, those white dusters have got to go.

My buddy Dan San Jermain was on last week and call them like Power Rangers outfits. I mean, it was just like. Perfect description. It makes no sense. Yeah. I don't understand it at all. It's very strange. It seems like, but I think, like, let's not, like, I'm, the, the dusters are, or the least of my concerns.

If that's what, if the dusters are what, if the white, shiny dusters are what it takes for Vince or whoever it is backstage to just allow these guys to go out and be themselves, then that's fine. I'm with you, okay. I'll ride along on that. Yeah, you're right. Like if, you know, he comes up and, oh, what I was saying is if, we, we have a knowledge, right, because we follow New Japan. We sort of like know what's going on. but the average fan doesn't. And so this is all new to them.

So we all might be a little bored, but they might, I mean, they might be on to something. It worked, it worked clearly. We have the merch to prove that it worked, you know,

as the Bullet Club. Dude, I went to a Ring of Honor show in New York, you know, whenever it was when they were doing the New Japan crossovers. And I got there on time. And I'll say,

for the record, I roll in late to Ring of Honor shows, you know, like you have to go to the Hammerstein Ballroom and like, it's a Saturday night, you know, it's like a stop off.

It's like going to your friend's house party for a couple hours. Hey, we're going to hit this place later. But I hit that place on time because I wanted a bullet club shirt, and they had been, they were sold out for like 10 minutes after they opened the doors. Like, I missed it by an hour. It was incredible. But I was just like, you know, I was like half joking, half serious talking to people I know

that work for Ring of Honor to see if I get like, if Carl Anderson would give me his bullet club t-shirt. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it's a great, like you said, it's a great shirt. But it's a, but, you know, they found, you know, if WWE can harness any of that without weird, without saying bullet club. club, which is a very weird thing. It's very strange.

Yeah, it'll be, it'll be intriguing. We haven't had a great faction in a while, I feel like, like a faction. Remember, like DX? I was like how many guys were in DX at one point? There was like seven people in that. Well, you know, when they briefly got like Jim Nidehart and Los Buriquis were like inducted for like five minutes, I guess the numbers really swelled at that point. But yeah, we could, everybody loves factions.

I love factions. I love factions. WWE seems strangely averse despite the League of Nations. well, they didn't do that. They could have done a lot more. And the new day really works, you know, but like it's not, I don't know, it just doesn't seem to be,

there's something, there's some motto backstage that I don't know what it is. How bad was that new day gimmick in the beginning? How what? How bad was the new day gimmick when it first started? Oh, it's terrible. The worst thing I've ever seen. I was giving it the benefit of the doubt

because I thought, oh, obviously they're turning them heel in one week. You know, like immediately after they debut. I never, I was like, this will never make it. I still, when I see those guys now, I'm so happy because those three guys like, those guys, I couldn't be happier for three dudes to like be really over right now. But with that thing, man, it's like become a beast.

I mean, I'd argue they're one of the most popular outfits in the, like, 100%. Yeah. Like if you, like, but I mean, the only, the only thing I'm worried about now is just over exposing him, that they're just going out and doing birthday cake gimmicks every single night. Yeah. And the thing is, it pops the crowd, it sells merchandise, like, who am I to say? I would, you know, I could go.

I could stand for that to be every other raw instead of every raw or something like... Well, I think you're going to get a lot of good tag teams soon, so I think it'll level out a little bit. Yeah. All right. Let's move to Sunday, Extreme Rules. We've been dancing around it all night. Let's just start right at the main event. Roman Raines and AJ Stiles had what has got to be, like, is it match of the year so far?

Like, it was such a good match. I was blown away, man. I have to say, I did not expect it to be as good as it was. But by the end, when they were just, like, decimating each other every two seconds. And then the Uso's and, you know, the club came in and they were all beaten the hell out of each other. It was, I did not expect those two guys to be able to work like that together. AJ has made everybody look amazing. Yeah.

I mean, it's not like, you know, whatever, you say Kevin Owens is amazing. So, like, I don't know how hard he has to work. Obviously, it's still a big task to make the other guy not look terrible. Right. You know, but AJ's made everybody look great. And he just, like he would have thrown himself in front of a moving tank for Roman Raines on Sunday night. It felt very sort of like attitude era, a hardcore era. Like, I'll do anything right now.

I don't care about my body. I don't care. I'll take anything right now. And to Roman Raines' credit, man, he was like taken as good as he was given too. We were talking to Bill Simmons before this, before the show started recording. And he was like, those you can't wrestle chance are just mean-spirited. Yeah, they really are. At this point, no one is under the impression that Roman Raines can't wrestle.

Like, he's had, certainly he's got his limitations. He's not, he's not, he's not A.J. Stiles. He's not, whoever you want to say, he's not, you know, 90s Brett Hart. But he's really good at being a wrestler. And he's, and he's put together now a string of what, like, like, or seven out of his last 10 pay-per-view matches are exceptional? I thought his WrestleMania two years ago with Lesnar was one of his best matches. I mean, he just went in there and was like, all right, you want me to earn this from you guys? I'm going to earn it.

I'm going to take all these suplexes. I'm going to get the hell beat out of me. And you're still going to hate me. And he just keeps, I'll give him credit, man. He does not stop. He's not getting down. It doesn't seem like he's getting down. He just, like, is going out there and like, all right, you want me to earn it?

I'm going to earn it. Sure. I'll keep putting myself in these spots. From that, I mean, the month before when he had that great match with Daniel Bryan before that match. And maybe even going back to Survivor Series, but definitely from that Daniel Brian match, Until now, I mean, I think if you just look at paper views, it'd be hard to make the case that he's not a really good wrestler. I mean, it's like every, like his worst matches have been against people who we, like, people like Rollins or Ambrose who he has chemistry with and who we like. Yeah.

I'm starting to wonder how many of the booze now are coming from people who are like the Sina booers, you know, like I boozeena, but I love Sina. Right. When I hear that music, come on. I, you know, I only want to see him like once every six months. But still, I love Sina. I love Roman Rains. It's like, if we were kids, dude, if we were eight years old, And Roman Reins, are you kidding me? You'd go crazy. You go crazy. He looks like a, he looks like a superhero.

He does. He looks, he looks great. He looks, I mean, you know, he's, uh, he's also got the great, like, the outfit that, like, an eight-year-old can wear to school just to just to look like Roman Reigns. So that's a good thing, too. Think about this alternate universe. No Brock Lesnar ever in the WWE. Let's just say he just stayed UFC, never came to WWE. Right. You got Roman Raines in there right now, and Paul Heyman is his escort, his manager. And Roman Raines is a Paul Heyman guy. And Roman Raines doesn't have to talk. He'd be one of the biggest superstars that the WWE has ever seen. It would be really interesting to see the kind of fantasy book, like where the Vince McMahon guy, the backstage, you know, the sort of John Cena, Roman Reins, the rumors, whatever, that these are the guys that Vince has chosen.

if you combine that with the on-screen Paul Heyman guy, what do the smart fans do? They're just like, do we just, our brains melt, I think. Completely. We don't know what we. Just oozing out of the ears. Oh, man. But that,

that match was like, from start to finish, it was just, it was just really, really good. I remember it came on, and it came on a little bit later than I was expecting, and I was like,

oh, they're not going to, like, it's not going to be that great. I only have 25 minutes or something like that. And then, like, nine minutes into the match, I felt like I'd been watching it for half an hour. They had told such a good story, And I joked it, like, this is what they used to do in Sina matches when, like, the worst period of Sina's champ when it was like Sina versus Umaga or Sina versus Kane, where inevitably like five minutes into the match, Sina would be like sitting outside on the floor on his knees, sweating profusely, and Michael Cole would be selling it like the match had been, had gone on an hour already.

But they actually pulled that off on Sunday. Like it felt real. It felt like that, like you said, it felt like it had been going on for about an hour and it was maybe five minutes in. Yeah. And the schmazzy stuff in the end didn't feel like too much. I'm talking with the club and the Uso's. And by the way, I'll be on the record saying I absolutely detest the Uso's. Oh, sure. It is not my thing.

It has never been my thing. It will never be my thing. Love both those guys, super nice guys. Usos, not my thing. Yeah. But I thought they were really good last third. This is the closest to the, this is the closest to the best, like to the best case scenario Uso's, right?

Just to have them like just get rid of the, get rid of the shiny shorts and the neon face paint and just let them be like badass enforcers for Roman Raines or for somebody. Yeah, man. The bloodline stuff. Like, I'd buy that before I buy the club, you know? I'll take that any day, but you got to get rid of the like neon face paint. Yeah.

It's got to go. Was there anything else that really jumped out of you? We're going to talk about the four way at the end. But was it like the club beat the Uso's to start the show. Well, Baron Corbyn beat Dolv Ziegler. This feud may end up being, may end up being one. that never ends. I mean,

because I don't know who else you put those guys with right now, to be honest. I just keep, I just keep those guys wrestling for a while. Rusef won the U.S.

championship. Setting him up for a Sina, right? This is what everybody's saying. Are these rumors that are, I haven't been on the internet as much I don't normally am?

I'm just going off of what makes sense. Yeah. I mean, you know, they had that great feud going into WrestleMania at 32 or 31, 31, 31, in Santa Clara.

And, you know, it makes perfect sense. I mean, Sina comes back, he wants that U.S. title, and we get back into the world where John Sina is the U.S. champ, you know, doing like open, open tournament every night. I love the John Sina, the John Sina U.S. title open, wait, what is it, the open, open, open invitational? Yeah. U.S. open, it's such a weird, such a weird variation on a tennis tournament that I can't quite get my head around it. The, but yeah, that was the best thing that John Sina's ever done.

It was so good, like, hugely likable. It's a little bit weird. It feels a little bit off for, for, I mean, obviously. Honestly, John Cena coming back and squashing Colisto is not the vibe they're looking for in his return. But it seems a little bit weird to put Rusef in just such a transitional champ position if that's what they're doing, although... I don't think, no, I don't think he'll lose the belt. I think he'll beat Sina and then we'll sort of get a feud going there. But I think it's going to be like, I'm coming for the belt.

Otherwise, where does Sina go right now? Like, where do you put Sina right now? I don't know. I mean, it seems like him, like, his workout video commercials that they're doing to use for his return or, like, the most effective use of John Cena. I mean, the U.S. Open Challenge is great, but those commercials are intense. Like, when was the last time we saw them get this hyped for somebody coming back from a labrum tear or whatever happened? I mean, it was crazy.

It's almost as if they think they don't have any other superstars there. They're, like, dying for them to come back. But, like, why would you not, like, like, they know that Rollins coming back is a big surprise and worth saving for the end of a pay-per-view, right? Like, why is Sina not that? Is it just because, like, Sina is around so much? much that we know that he's healthy. He's hosting the SPs. He's what today's show for a week. Yeah. My mom texts me every time he's on the Today Show. My mom is a huge fan of John Sina on the Today show. Well, he's, he's on the path to being to being like the next Michael Strayhan, I think.

He's going to be the guy. That's what Dan said last week here in that very chair is that he's the white Michael, Michael Strayhan. He's the white Michael. He is. He's the white Michael Strayan. But he is. You know, he's like, he's charming. I think he's most charming on those kind of things. You never see that John Cena in the ring. No. Not that I watch Total Divas, but I do watch Total Divas. But you know, you don't see that John Cena on Total Divas. Like, John Cena on Total Divas seems like a horrible human being.

It makes you wonder why John Cena agreed to be on Total Divas. And you know what the answer is, but like it's still like he does not want to be there at all. Not at all. So, you know, I don't know, man. We'll see. It's one of those weird things. Like I'm excited to see him come back because I always get a little excited when the music starts. but then I soon find

it's like going back to an old ex it's like ah man we always used to have it didn't you? It's just like it's good to see you again and I'll go away for like another six months What would you do? I mean you have a girlfriend in the business What would you do if she was like

I'm on a reality show and by the way you're in it too? Oh man I don't know that's a tough one my first question is how much does it pay my second question is how long how many episodes we have to do but I don't know your third question is can I just stand there

looking mad the whole time yeah I think because like my background it wouldn't be as weird like as if I was like a banker or something or you know an account manager but I would not want that life man I would not want cameras around all the time that would be really tough do you want to say anything

do you want to make fun of the Dean Ambrose Chris Jericho asylum match before we move on? No. I don't want to say anything about it. I think that that's exactly the right play. Although that thumbtack bump sort of redeemed everything. And like, you know.

Yeah, if you've never seen like Mick Foley matches ever. Oh, sure. But no, but just the fact, no, like even when he dumped him out. He was covered. Oh, yeah. Jericho was like. Even when Ambrose dumped out that bag, I thought they're not really going to take the bump. Like this is 2016.

Yeah. I mean, he did take it. Yeah. I've always won it. like what that must feel like because it clearly can't hurt too bad. There's a little tiny things, but it also has to hurt. Oh yeah. You know?

It would be, yeah. Now that you mention that, like I could imagine, I can imagine doing that for the right amount of money. Because I wouldn't, I'm not putting a hundred thumbtacks in you one at a time. Right. I'm putting a hundred in you once. Right. And maybe it's only like 20 that go in you.

Right. Although, like, if they're on, if they're kind of like on their side, if you hit the corner of the top. His arm, though, is like, smoke. It's like that whole backside. That's what I'm saying. If you hit the,

the thumbtacks that don't go in you are the ones that probably hurt the worst. Because it's like, at the top of the thumbtack, just like cuts into you and then doesn't stick. Yeah. Oh, man, that's got to be brutal.

Dude, the one thing I will say, but then we can move on because it really was not great was, I didn't understand why things were like randomly hanging above the ring. It looked so hokey and so cheesy. Just like throw everything in the middle of the ring and like lock them in.

Like, I agree. Was the flower, Was the flower pot the only thing left at the end of the match? Or was I... No, it was the only thing left, which I was certain was going to be the thing that got smashed into Chris Jericho's head.

Yeah, or I thought they were... You know, because Ambrose... Ambrose had this ridiculous advantage of knowing what was in all the... Or what all the things could do. We built up, like, Mitch so much and, like, what Mitch meant. Although Ambrose tearing up Chris Jericho's jacket,

it's probably one of my favorite moments of the last, like, three or four years. I have no problem for that. I hate that, no problem with that. No, I was really joking. I was joking at the end, half seriously, that he was going to pull the fly

fire pot down and there just be a gun in it or something. Just like he knows what's in the flower pot. This has got to be there for a reason. But no, it was not great. The highlight, I mean, the main event was great. But let's just spend a few minutes here at the end to pay tribute to the fatal four-way match for the I.C. championship, which, I mean, four-way matches are always fun and really difficult to pull off.

Very difficult. That match got a newer crowd going. The only thing that they were excited about besides booing the Uso's that night was cheering for that match and with good reason. That match was so good. What was your take? I think you said it with the Rising Tides thing

is that when's the last time Mizz had has worked that good? It's been so long since you've seen that Mizz. And he was like the perfect foil in that ring. And he has been. It's been leading up. But for some reason, man, And those three guys, I think they're just all in their prime right now.

They're all just sort of like hitting at the right time. And he just like bought in. And that Sammy Zane, Cesarro, like flip, double flip, like neck breaker, whatever it was. I've never, like if you watch that in slow motion, there is a point where they're both off the ground flipping around each other and they land it perfect. It's just like beautiful. Sammy Zane, man. I mean, I don't understand his whole thing. like nice guy that likes ska but he's a good wrestler man i love watching that guy yeah he's really

fun and he's like yeah i mean it's it's it's like we said before it's crazy to see how much w w is bought in to him yeah um but like he's he's he's he's i don't think he's there i don't think that he's anywhere near his potential and that's the crazy thing watching him i mean he comes back he comes back from injury and he's a little bit out of ring shape and what they just kind of like rush him right back to keep this kevin owen's story going yeah it seemed like he came back a little too early, but it... But even... I'm not talking about just, like, ring shape.

I'm just like, he could be... Like, you were talking about Rocky My Via earlier. Like, I could imagine in 10 years, you know, us watching a DVD of these early Sammy Zane matches and being like, wow, that dude's totally different and not nearly as good, you know? Even as crazy as we are about him right now. Yeah.

Yeah, he and Owens, man. I mean, I think you're going to see that match for a while to come because there's just so much story. That promo they cut before payback. was like such a good promo, like that video package they made of the two of them. But, I mean, even, you know, Cesarro, who I've never really been a huge, I'm not, I'm definitely don't sit in the Cizaro's section, but like,

he's good, man. He's like, those guys working together right now for some reason. I love Cizaro. We have, you know, I'm, I'm, I think I'm obligated to love any bald man, especially professional wrestling. But the, but no, I mean, I think he's absolutely, like, he's so much fun to watch in the ring. I joked on Sunday that my only complaint after that match was that Ms. wasn't

fighting wasn't competing for the world championship because he was so like you could just like you said you he just stepped up his game so much to be a part of that and him with Maurice like when they were celebrating at the end I was just like oh yeah like you know you see the good thing about WWU for the past couple of months is we like either keep being these moments where we see people and you have that aha moment over and over again you're like now I like yes of course he can be a headliner Just like look at him right at this moment. Yeah.

You know, I was watching that match and we emailed you before the show. The four way, the history of four ways in WW is like a little bit hit and miss. Like I said, they're hard to pull off. A guy follow on Twitter, Ultimo Dank is an excellent follow. You guys shall check him out. Immediately we started talking about his favorite, his favorite four-way of all time, which is also a favorite of mine that I hadn't seen in a couple years. But the in-your-house-13, it was called, was it four-corner?

in your house for the bloody vader match yeah that that the main event of this match which is yeah van vader versus undertaker versus austin versus brett heart this is sort of sets the stage for the austin brett double turn at russomania or it's when you know this is shortly before that um and uh this is and this is for the championship it was supposed to be what sid had won the royal rumble the back story is so convoluted yes sid was like sid's waiting backstage to see who wins the match and then sean was the Sean Michaels was the champ, but he lost his smile and it was vacated. So this is, so, so yeah, but this match was for the championship, at an in-your-house.

He literally said that, by the way. I've lost my smile. Yeah. And I know everybody thinks I'm supposed to be tough out here, but like I'm going to go home and find my smile again. Yeah. So this is that they bring Brett and Austin's like kind of feud into the main event. And then also, but the real-life feud is this is when Brett saying, when Brett thinks that Sean is not actually hurt and is just ditching out so that he won't have to. to drop the title to Brett.

There's so much, there's so much stuff going on here. This would be like, if this happened in 2016, the wrestling, like wrestling Twitter would explode. Oh my God, it'd be amazing.

But that match was, um, what I think of four ways, and there's so many good, there were so many four ways in WWI history. There's that and then the other one that I always think about is the WrestleMania 2001. That's one of my favorites.

Where they, where there's a McMahon in every corner. The only thing that that one missed was that all the McMans got a rock bottom except for Linda. And I'll be on. honest with you. Like, if you're going to do Stephanie, you might as well do Lender as well. It ends with the Stephanie Rock Bottom, right? It ends with the

Stephanie Rock Bottom and the People's Elbow across Stephanie McMahon's chest. It's amazing. It's amazing how that, like, a mere 16 years ago, like the Rock beating up a woman was a way to get yourself over as a baby. It would still work. It's brutal. I mean, he does not

leave anything off of it. When you watch that, he puts her, that, I was watching that, thinking to myself, like, it's so crazy, you're right, 16 years ago, 2000, and you have Vince, Shane, and Stephanie there. And you see now with Shane and Stephanie sort of running the show and like how great is Shane McMahon? Like 16 years later. And he beats the hell out of Vince in that match. He hits Vince in the head, two chair shots, busts Vince head open. They're like fist fighting. Like that was, I, look, I'm always going to be a guy who

who sort of gravitates towards the attitude era. I was raised. I'm like early Hogan. I'm 40 years old. Like I had Coco Beware and Hogan and Macho Man and George the Animal Steel. Like that was my originals. A lot of NWA, a lot of the territory wrestling when I grew up. But my bread and butter will always be attitude error. We'll always be like, you know, 96 to like 2002 was like the sweet spot for me.

So to go back and watch the McMan's, like there was a time where that was like must-see television, man. You'd never seen like a father's son beat the hell out of each other with, Chairs. Man, there's never going to be anything more real than a staged fight between a father and a son with chairs because you know that they really like kind of, like, Shane probably has wanted to hit his dad with a chair for about 20 years at that point. Yeah. In real life and just doing, you know, when your dad's just like, all right, let me have it.

You're like, okay, I'll lay it in. He lays it on in too. It's like holding back. That match is really fun. But the In Your House match was, was like, it reminded me a lot of the match we saw on Sunday because it was just from the moment the bell rung, people were hitting each other really hard. And everybody seemed to know,

I mean, those two matches could not have been choreographed any better. The WrestleMania 2000 match was very good and it felt big and whatever. But like, it was sort of more of a traditional four-man match. It was like, here's your one spot.

Yeah. Now we're going to move to another spot. And they wrote, and Big Show was out of that match like three minutes in. Spoiler alert. Like that was, so it was basically a three-man,

a three-way match. That in your house, match was, first of all, yeah, Van Vader was... First minute, right? He gets, like, kicked in a, taker kicks that chair right into his eye. Yeah, and I couldn't tell...

I didn't watch the replay really hard last night. I couldn't tell if it was actually that's how it got cut or if that was a planned bloods, like... Look to me, like, it just hit him, like, right on that butterfly where the boxers always get, and it just flayed him open. I mean, there's that one close-up they do where, like, the skin is hanging down into his eyes.

It's crazy. You just believe... I mean, we're talking about a guy who actually, though, like, put his own eye back in during a match, like... Yeah. This looked worse than that. That eye match gets a lot of hype, but like this, this, this looked grosser during this man watching the show.

He actually takes off the Vader mask at one point because he's like, this just is irritating me. I think he couldn't see. I mean, honestly, I think the guy couldn't see for half the match. It was crazy. And some of the spots that he did, given that he couldn't see. Yeah. I mean, he gets, he gets eliminated from the match just like, I mean, everybody has to go over the top rope.

This is a very special set of rules for this match. Yeah, there was a weird four-way. You could go out of the rim. and fight on the floor. You could do whatever you wanted. No pinfalls outside, though. And you could use chairs. You could use whatever you wanted.

Yeah. But then you had to get thrown over the top rope. It seems like it'd be pretty easy to avoid getting eliminated. You could just walk away from the ring. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, I mean, but the match itself was just really, really great. They had to have Undertaker sort of hitting his prime. Yeah.

Brett and, I mean, that was. He'd only been champion once before that, right? A taker. Yeah. That could very well be true. I think it sounds right. I think he was only like, I think he lost the belt once. And Austin was not yet the Stone Cold Steve Austin that we all know and love fully.

I mean, he wasn't quite in the main event, although that's a main event match. Yeah, because what was King of the Ring was that year, right? Yeah. And the Brett Hart double turn was what happened at WrestleMania. So like that was the moment that Stone Cold sort of, you know, fully figured. We, they fully figured it out. But physically, this in your house, I mean, this is the Stone Cold moment. where he is figuring out the character,

he's almost there on the character and still 100% physically. Yeah, he looks so good. He's like so cut up, still had abs. Like he was wearing, was wearing somewhat like, like something close to regular knee pads

instead of like full on like. Giant knee braces. Yeah. Yeah. Man, it was really great. He gives Taker a stunner in that match which looks so awful

because Taker just doesn't, I don't know if he didn't know it's coming. Yeah. But he takes it to the side and like twists around and it's one of those moments where you're like, ooh, still figuring that move out. Yeah, and Brett was, I mean,

Brett was wrestling at a really high level for probably like 15 years or more. Yeah. But when Brett is unhappy with his spot in WWF, I think he's at his best. You can see it, right? He's working really snug. Oh, so pissed and like,

you can just feel like the anger coming off of Brett Hart in that match. Yeah. There's so much bubbling under the surface. There's never been, I mean, and this is all the credit in the world to Brett and to Stu, heart and like just learning how to be a real professional wrestler.

There's never been a guy who of that size who didn't, never, didn't have to wrestle as a small guy, never looked at a place in the ring against the undertaker against Psycho Sid, against Goldberg against whoever. You always felt that guy had a shot. Yeah, he just, you don't even think of them as a small,

when they're, when they're doing the pre-match promos, you know, he looks smaller. But when they get in there in the ring, it's just like he's just, he's a wrestler and he's very, very good at it.

Yeah, but I encourage all of you guys who are listening, to go back and watch this match. It was really crazy. And one thing I'll just close on is, and if you watch that In Your House match and WrestleMania 2000, we're at the moment of peak King and JR.

Like we all rhapsodized about how great they were, but go watch that In Your House main event. The 2000 was actually a little bit past the prime. Yeah. If you watch that In Your House main event, like King is a little bit more cartoony than some people. might like but he's just he's got the exact right he got worse though he got worse cartoon yeah oh yeah like so

you're right it's like peak king and and jr just makes it feel so legitimate even when they miss calls it makes it feel more real because it's just like they're distracted by some other violence going on yeah um though but like if yeah i mean if if if they're if you're so young that you just don't even know why why jim ross is the greatest of all time like go back and watch this match you was that that that just to be able to make sense out of that much mayhem without, presumably without, you know, somebody in your ear telling you what you need to be saying all the time. Well, and you know what happens in these four ways today is like, well, you'll have the action

that's happening in the ring and then two guys get sort of incapacitated and they're like laying next to the ring while you watch these other two guys wrestle. That in your house match, they start off and it's, I think it's like Austin and Brett go at each other first and Taker and Vader go at each other first. And then there's a moment where it's almost like somebody just rings a bell and they all just seamlessly shift partners. It's like a square dance. Yeah, so there's like no moment where like somebody's just laying down while we're watching

the other two guys. There's very, very little downtime. And the match, I mean, to bring it back full circle to the I see title on Sunday, I see title match on Sunday, there was, I mean, there was certainly a lot of that. And the thing that sticks in your memory is the sort of never ending end sequence of guys jumping out of, you know, lying on the floor and jumping up just in time to break up a pin. Yeah. Although that's a, I mean, we've seen it before, but that's tried and true.

I mean, that will never not get you going. And they managed to do like, everybody got like two turns breaking up a pin on Sunday as opposed to just the normal one turn. Everyone got their finishers in, which was nice. Yeah, it was a full, like, and I mean this not in a dismissive way. It was the most indie wrestling major match I've seen in WWE and forever, I mean, ever maybe. Because all of those things like the sequence of finishers, the endless breaking up pins, like the so many false finishes. It really felt like a Ring of Honor number one contenders match or something like that in the best possible way. Yeah, I thought it was the, I mean, you know, that.

The main event was superb, but I still think probably that that I see four-way was probably the best match of the night. It was so good. I mean, listen, there's not, it's hard to compare those two matches. And it's, yeah, there are two different things. It's sort of insane that we got them both on the same show at extreme rules in the first, you know, quarter of the year. It made the rest of the pay-per-view completely forgettable, I'll be honest. Well, I mean, at some point, we haven't talked about, you know, tag matches. We haven't talked about the women's championship match, which was very good.

And we got to, you know, the debut of Dana Brooke as Charlotte's Hinch lady was great. But yeah, I mean, there's nothing, there's no reason to talk about anything except those two matches. I think that AJ and Roman had kind of, well, in a certain way, a higher level of difficulty, higher degree of difficulty. For sure. Because they were holding down the main event spot because they, because the you can't wrestle chance were looming and they knew it going in. there was a you know a B plus version of that match could have seemed like a pile of steaming shit yeah if it you know I mean in the they had to hit a

high risk it was a high risk it's a high risk spot because it either goes really good or he goes really bad yeah this is totally true but that but the four way match was like they made it a high degree of difficulty by what they chose to do in the match and they pulled everything off I mean it was absolutely from the from the from the you know Huluva kick to start all the way to the end. Keeping the title on Miz was exactly the right decision. And the only complaint

is those four-way matches make it in general make it really hard to have a surprise finish that feels like you've earned it sort of. So in that sense, like keeping the title on Ms. after a great match was the exact right way to go. But there wasn't a surprising ending. There wasn't, and we didn't

get the added bonus of the Seth Rollins' giant, you know, giant biceps run in at the very end, which is, I swear to God, that's my only With the new outfit, too. New logo. The lack of hair bleach. Yeah.

I'm actually a big fan that the blonde has gone. He's got two little tips. You can kind of see the two little tips. Oh, really? Yeah. By the way, last night, raw, like, do we really need to wet the hair down when you're in a suit? That jacket was soaked. His suit jacket was soaked from hair water.

I think that they, hair watered. I did notice that on Monday. Before he did the full heel turn, I was like, when he came out in the suit, I was like, okay, we're going heel now because Seth Rollins looks like he's ready to wrestle people just get excited. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it was, Sunday was great. Monday was, I mean, this is

a good time of the year. I think so, for WWE. I think it's a good time for WWE. The last, you know, last year was okay, the year before that was, you know, better, but I think that they had to go through that transitional period. I think they're in a new phase now. I don't want to say new era, but they're in a new

phase. Nobody, we don't want anyone to say new era ever again. Yeah, I'm not paid by the WWE, so I'm not going to say new era, but it does feel like this is, we've got a lot of guys who are sort of ready to go and a lot of guys who are, you know, just hitting their prime. It's going to be, I think WWE will look a lot different in a year and a half. I hope so, you know, I mean, the only, like, I hope that some of these injuries have really given people the chance to come up. And, and WWU certainly benefited from it. Now, if they, you know, since, since CM Punk became a main inventor, I mean, so like,

as long as I have been writing and podcasting about Professor. professional wrestling. WWE has been in desperate need of two or three people they can put next to John Sina on media, you know, on promo posters and saying like, look at these major stars that we have. Yeah. Finally, we might be getting there. I mean, it's taken this long.

We had Daniel Bryan. Yeah. You know, but Daniel Brian and Punk never were quite there at the same time. And then punk left. Yeah. It's crazy to think that it could be people like Kevin Owens that are, you know, kind of ascending to that level. but certainly Roman Raines, Seth Rollins.

Do you think so Roman Raines, this is changing the subject, but we got to get out of here. But do you think Roman Raines and Seth Rollins like coordinate who gets to have a beard and who gets to have a dotee? So I actually saw this morning, I think it was like what culture or somebody posted a picture of the promo for its Rollins and Raines for money in the bank. And then they were like, oh, our bad, we messed up the picture.

And they face swapped the two of them for the next picture. So he's just got like Rollins like smushed a little face on Roman's head. I mean, it was actually kind of brilliant because they do like, especially now with the blonde gone. It's just like two dudes with beards, dark hair, big muscles, black suits. Yeah, well, you know, they, at least we didn't get them presented as like fake brothers when they debuted. So at least, you know, they're two guys that were old friends. A lot of friends, a lot of guys that spend a lot of time together end up with the same look. You know, they kind of get the same aesthetic.

We all know who that is. Anyway, thank you so much for coming by, man. Do you have any closing thoughts before you get out of here? No, brother, I'm good. I'm happy to be here. What is it? What match you're going to go home and watch next? Do you have anything in the queue?

Well, I kind of get, like, I've been going back and like, because I had a dark period where I stopped watching wrestling. I can admit that to you. Yeah, that's fine. I think we've all had that. We've all had a period. It was like 02 to 012, or to 12, so about 10 years. Oh, wow.

That's a serious dark period. I missed like, I missed C.m. Punk. I missed really like a lot of John Cena stuff. So my thing now has been going back and catching up with all the pay-per-views. So I sort of started at like 2002. And if I'm bored, I don't have anything to do, I'll just like fire it up. And I'm kind of trying to go in chronological order so that I kind of have that gap filled in. But yeah, feel free to suggest to me anything on Twitter at Steve Kazee that you think I might want to watch.

Yeah, oh yeah, we got to get the plug in there. Is there anything else you want to talk about before? No, I'm unemployed at the moment. so I got nothing else. Yeah, well, if you have any more questions about that, you can Google his name and find out all that you want to know about his unemployment. So it's S-T-E-V-E-K-A-Z-E. That's right, yeah.

Royal Rumble 2008. I don't know if you've gotten there yet, but I've talked about it before. One of my favorite all-time John Cena moments, if you're, I just said earlier, if you're too young to remember J.R. and his prime, if you're too young to remember John Cena actually being over

and not getting the Sina sucks chance, John Sina makes a big return in that Royal Rumble from injury and is the, and it's an MSG, it's the biggest pop. I think the biggest pop in Royal Rumble history. Really? And that, that, that, that, the Royal Rumble is built on big pops. Like, that's the whole thing. It's crazy.

I mean, it's just absolutely nuts. And that's, and also just the arena for that show is, is, I mean, it just makes it feel, It's the last like intimate major event, you know. MSG is not a big arena, not a big arena, not compared to some of the ones that they have. And it just feels like they're doing the entrances through the side. And it just feels so, it feels more like an ECW show than a, than a paper view that we're used to. Yeah.

Really, really cool. The Texas Stadium was, uh, or WrestleMania this year. Yeah. I've never seen anything like that. It's enormous. It's enormous. I mean, you could watch those old, I don't know, if you can track them. I'm sure they're on YouTube or some on the network, but the old, when you,

world class wrestling, world class championship wrestling used to do like the Cotton Bowl or something for their big shows. That seemed like the most people ever together in one place. And that's like so small compared to what we, what they did at WrestleMania this year. It was crazy. It was really nuts. Well, anyway, man, thanks for coming out. Thanks for having you, man. Steve Kazee, at Steve at Steve Kiz on Twitter. You know me. I'm Matt David Shoemaker. And yeah, come back next Tuesday. We're going to do this. We're going to do this every week. Maybe have a name by next Tuesday. we'll definitely we're definitely going to try to have a name by next Tuesday but in the meantime I forgot to say this last week but but have a good week humanoids