The Press Box - Ep. 152: 'Jam Session' Insider Bonus With Juliet Litman and Amanda Dobbins

Episode Date: July 19, 2016

On this emergency special of 'Jam Session,' Amanda Dobbins and Juliet Litman talk exclusively about Kimye v. Tay, also known as the Snapchat tapes (4:00). Plus a bonus interview with 'GQ' writer Caity Weaver for an insider look at the "Famous" feud (18:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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all right from your phone. So drop your old ticket app and experience buying and selling tickets the way it should be. To start using Seatkeek, download the free Seatkeek app or go to Seek.com. And one more thing, we wanted to mention the ringer now has merch. Go to bidley.com slash ringer merch where you can find shirts and hoodies. I just ordered a gray t-shirt if you want to match me. Right. It has the little ringer logo on the pocket.

I'm very excited about it. A portion of the proceeds from each purchase will benefit charity water. a nonprofit organization that provides clean and safe drinking water to people in developing nations. Again, go to b-it-l-y-l-y-com slash ringer merch. Welcome to a special edition of Jam Session. I'm Juliet Lippman. I'm Amanda Dobbins. Single topic. Only one thing to talk about. That is the Kim Yeh versus Taylor feud.

By special request, here we are emergency jam session. Juliet, where were you when the Snapchat video? that changed our lives. That's a great question. I was sitting in my recliner. Do you have a recliner? Yes, I do. Like a full on lazy boy or like designer?

It's from Macy's. It's really comfortable. It's like my TV chair. I was watching the night of. That's, oh, yeah. Another criminal procedure. Right. And, you know, this breaking news came in.

Kim, and I didn't even follow Kim Kardashian on Snapchat. I had to ask you for her Snap name. That's true. I had to teach my husband how to use Snapchat in order, because I somehow deleted Snapchat off my phone. So it was like that two of us sitting on this couch while Stranger Things was playing, screaming like, just type Kim, just type Kim! And then like the tweets are going wild.

It was a really, really, really intense like 30 to 40 minutes. It's in my home. It really was. So Kim Kardashian, she released via her Snapchat footage of Kanye telling Taylor Swift about his lyrics about her. She released the famous tapes. She released the famous tapes. Okay, so let's set a little scene here. Okay, I would love to. Great.

Close readers of Kim Kardashian's GQ Magazine profile would have known about these tapes already. And we're going to come back to that with a special guest. But essentially, a few months ago or a few weeks ago, Kim declared war on Taylor and said that Taylor was lying about a particular line in Kanye West's song famous, which is, I feel like. me and Taylor might still have sex. Why? I made that bitch famous. It's a great song. My favorite on the record. It's not my favorite, but it's pretty good. Yeah, that's really good.

So Taylor, if you will recall it, the Grammys got very upset about this line, launched another war on Kanye and was like, stop taking credit for my, you know, success, which, like, honestly, is possibly the most reasonable defense against the whole thing. Sure. That has long since fallen to the wayside. I do not believe he made her famous for the record. I think it helped both of them. I think that's how celebrity works.

That's true. It both got great tunes, you know? It's true. If only were only about the music, actually it would be super boring if it were just about the music and neither of us would care and we wouldn't have podcasts. Anyway, Taylor was very upset and this was the narrative for a while until, and Connie kind of tried to defend himself and was like, no, she said it was okay. And Taylor was like, no, I didn't. And then we were sort of at a detente. And then Hiddle Swift happened.

And we were all distracted by more performance art. Right. So that was fine until Kim decided to reignite the war by saying, no, she's lying. She agreed to this line. And I have the videotapes to prove it. Hashtag, I will show you the receipts. So on Sunday night, Kim Kardashian made good on that promise. Yes, she did.

It was incredible. So I don't watch Keeping Up with the Kardashians. What happened on Sunday and keeping up with the Kardashians? On Sunday they finally, the show is like six weeks, two months behind. You never actually really know. Got it. The timeline is, you know, they have invented their own sense of time. But on Sunday night, it caught up with the GQ magazine cover.

So Sunday night. So that's very relevant here. Yes. So on the Sunday night episode, Kim is talking about how she gave this interview. And she gives a speech to a like supremely disinterested court. me about how she was just fed up and she'd had enough and she decided to tell the GQ reporter that Taylor's a liar and Taylor and she was just tired of people stepping on her husband and she sort of she gives like a particularly fiery for Kim which is just like she's like one out of five

fire emojis um she was just fed up and she wanted to protect her husband and she gives like a minute long monologue you can watch this on the internet and then Courtney just honestly looks like a zombie and it literally says, I'm so glad that you told the truth. Just like that. That's literally how Courtney did it because Courtney is a legend. Courtney is my number one. Oh, my God. So this was obviously coordinated. The episode talking about the GQ cover went up on Sunday night and then I believe I think it might have been during the episode. She started airing that. She posted them on that's a real second screen experience. really gets it. She understands our world. She is a multimedia

savant. Tycoon. Nice. Savon. All of them. She's really something. And it's interesting as she's like her husband's champion. Right. Like really, I can't remember where I heard this. But like it just, that speaks a lot to the, um, the power dynamic and their relationship, I think. That she's the one protecting him. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. She's in charge. Yeah. Like he's kind of world and we're all living in it. And that's include. Yeah.

Like he's the kind of creative artist and she kind of like makes the world safe for his art. Right. Although not exactly. But it's interesting that she's like really the, she decided to release the footage herself. Not to wait for any documentary or like to put it on Vimeo or something like that. You have to assume that, again, that's protecting Kanye. Because it, I think the tapes are received very differently if Kanye is recording them. Definitely.

For better or for worse, probably unfairly. But I think it looks a little creepier people. Yeah. It's more like she's like fighting for a family member, whereas if he did it, it would be more like defending himself when he already like sort of just like some people think disrespect to Taylor. I mean, those lyrics are very disrespectful. Sure. But it certainly you listen to them differently, knowing that Taylor's soap was like, yeah, that's a compliment. Like you want to have sex with me.

As she says on the tape. It's tongue and cheek. I think everybody would know that. So let's talk about the contents of the tape for a second. Sure. They are extremely damning. Yeah. They're also like, it was just too long for me.

I was like, can we get this down to like 15 seconds here? Okay. All right. As a historian of Taylor Swift's stuff, I disagree. I think this is important, like source material that we should put in the archives. To you, like what was the most damning moment? For me, it was definitely the, yeah, that's a compliment. For me, it was everyone will know its tongue in cheek.

Because for me, that proves that she's actually thinking through the levels of interpretation. Like, she acknowledges that you can't have a sense of humor about these things. Sure. Which has not been her public response at all. Her public response has just been boneheaded. And also, like, not that vocal except for her Instagram note, right? Yeah. Well, I think that is her way of.

defeating defeat. Sure. I was most surprised by her tone on the phone. It was a really different Taylor than I'm accustomed to. Preacher Taylor was gone and she seemed like a lot younger to me. Like she seemed like nervous to be talking to Kanye and sort of like a little bit eager to please in some way or something. I don't know. I haven't heard. I heard annoyance and disinterest. And I think maybe the two biggest defenses for Taylor Swift. One, the suspicious cut. because on the tapes, and I'm sorry to sound like a crazy person, but like you people requested this emergency jam session pot and so we're going here.

He reads the lyric and all he says was, all he says is I feel like me and Taylor might have sex. And then it cuts out. And that's the only lyric that we're shown. Right. So we don't know what he said afterwards. We don't know how she responded to the other line. Yeah.

I made that bitch famous. Or he told her about it. Or if he told her about it or anything. We don't know. And the tape is really suspiciously edited in that respect. And she wisely has hung her defense on the second line. The other thing that sounds, the only other defense is that she really sounds like she does not want to be having this phone call to me.

And she's like doing it and is kind of nodding and is like, yeah, sure, it's nice. It's really nice that you said this. And she makes a point of being like, I really appreciate you calling me. It's nice that you're doing this, which is true. and it is. But otherwise she sounds like she would rather just not be on the phone and would rather not be dealing with this. And I understand that.

Sure. Sure. I mean, Kanye and her don't have a great history. It's like, why would she want to like engage with him? Yeah. That makes sense. And like why does she need to be pulled into this, which I think has sort of been her, her, what's her incredible quote?

I just thought it was interesting that she just sort of seemed like she was placating him, like I guess to get off the phone. But that probably was a bit. mistake. Yes. Because placating him sort of like gave him the go ahead, at least in his mind, I think. And obviously, this is now spun into a much bigger story. And it probably wouldn't have been a net negative for her if she hadn't told her own

narrative, which then proved to be not completely the truth. Like it would have, you know, okay, he mentions you in a song, he disrespects you. Like ultimately it gave her the chance to like fight for her right as a woman and like to be a, like a strong female artist, which is great. sure, like, you know, maybe it brings false to some people, but like it kind of plays into the Taylor stuff we know. And so if she, if her version of events were true, like, yes, that would have been a positive. That would have been like fine for Taylor. It's like she's a strong woman. She gets more publicity. She's another fight where like people can take her side. Like how,

that's not a negative. Right. It's only a negative because she spun it in a good disingenuous way. It was crowded. And also some people have pointed out, you can just say no on the phone. Yeah. And he wouldn't have done it. It seems very clear that if she had. said no he would have just been like okay well I guess I don't know maybe he would have done it anyway maybe he would have but you can stick up for yourself on the phone yeah and like the tailor on the phone is very different from the tailor of the statement of I would very much like to be excluded from this narrative yeah I have a question for you yes so it came out today on TMZ or maybe it was late last night sure there were other people on TMZ got access to the entire tape yes I presume

presumed through the Kardashians um and they wrote that Rick Rubin speaks up and there's other people on the conference call and it's not just Taylor and Kanye. And I think that's really significant because Kim definitely framed it as like a one-on-one conversation. Like I wonder some of the suspicious cuts were not to like free Kanye of anything, but just to like make it seem like it was like an intimate personal conversation opposed to like a business conference call, which it sounds like it was. Right.

Oh, that's a good point. I hadn't thought about that. Like maybe they didn't want to have like maybe Kim was like it's not useful for Kanye to have Rick Rubin's voice in here, even though, like, that's extremely significant. So I'm going to cut that out. Yeah. I do think it's possible that it was not a situation in what she felt comfortable being like, no. Yeah. And I think the more people were on the call, the more it's just like, well, I guess I like have to go along with us. Sure. I'm on so many conference calls. I'm like, yeah, yeah, great, great. Let's follow up on that later. And the thing about saying like, yes, of course,

like, it's so nice of you. You did all these things. You know, trying your best to be nice and liked. that almost makes me feel for her wow i can't believe we just turned around to making well it's still i mean the still undeniable fact is that taylor swift took a situation and spun it in a way that was like purely for her own benefit and not truthful and or like truth is so is um so variable and so relative but the point is that taylor swift has like a history of kind of narrative construction that is hokey and disingenuous like i said before and that and that is undeniable and that and that is undeniable But I think Kim try to present this as like a very like one-to-one Kanye did her the service of like calling her and telling her. And like it probably was much more of like a business phone call.

That's true. Like we just don't know who else is on the on the phone call. Like that's what's suspicious to me, not the information that was left out, but like who else was involved. Yeah. I buy that. And I think that kind of highlights for me that it's less probably they're both right phone call wise. I'm willing to believe that. he did not give her the second part of the line or the line changed or it wasn't totally clear

or something like I'm willing to believe that the conversation was sort of confusing and he left with one understanding and she left with another yeah that's fine that's probably exactly what happened it's how they both chose to play it after the fact that where the winners and losers are made absolutely let's talk about her Instagram note a little bit who well let's talk about yes, let's talk about it. Let's also talk about the science, the research that's been done on the internet to prove that it was definitely written many months ago.

I would like to credit Bobby Finger of Jezebel, I believe, who's been on this beat and who pointed out that it was a screenshot of a notes app. And if you look in the top left corner, the back button is search, which would lead you to believe that she was searching through her notes app for the response that she wanted to post on Instagram. Teased that out a little, she definitely had pre-written it, knew this was coming, and had just been waiting for the moment.

Who knows how old that notes app is? Well, yeah. And the other like incredibly damning thing is that they sent a note to Kanye or like a legal letter in February asking for the tape to be to be destroyed. Right. So maybe she wrote it in February at the same time, just waiting for this to be released. Yeah. I do not understand why. the word bitch is the hill she wants to die on. I don't really know either. Listen, I don't want to be called a bitch. I mean, I have been.

I like to call men bitches. Like, calling a man a bitch is inherently funny. I don't know. The point is, it's fairly common. It's very gendered. I guess it's gendered. It's why it's funny to call a guy a bitch is because it's so gendered.

Yeah. My thing is, is that, like, she's probably been called worse things. Yeah. And also, of all the things in the line, you're just going to be mad about, like, a fairly common, and like rap colloquialism. Like, this is not, this is not the one word to die,

like to fight about. I don't get it. Different if you said like, I made that woman famous. I made that woman famous. Yeah, I guess. I mean, she would probably come up with a different attack.

Yeah. But it just seems like to me that she's grasping for straws and this is the straw that is kind of black and, like, clearest in the media. Yeah. It's just like, well,

you can't call someone a bitch because that's mean. Totally. Yeah, I know. It seems like a silly one. I don't get it. I mean, maybe it's because that's the one line that we just didn't know about. I guess so. Though even within that line, the taking credit for your fame and your success is actually

more defensible to me. Yeah, for sure. It's way more offensive. Yeah. I mean, all you've got in this world is the credit you can take. Also, just like here's a really line note and we'll move on from this. But you don't get to, and I quote, I'm quoting from the statement here, control someone's emotional response to be like, okay, keep the therapy talk out of this. Did your therapist write that, Taylor?

No, that is not the way to say it. You heard my feelings is clear enough. One thing I would really like from our entire society is for feelings to be kept at home a little bit more. Like just in general, like chalking something up to that's just how I feel or like, well, I can't control how I feel. Like, yes, you can't control how you feel, but you can control the extent to which other people know about your feelings. Let's just also be clear here.

There are no feelings in this. This is all just super calibrated medium manipulation. And she's losing. And so she's trying to make people feel bad for her. It's interesting that she's like so rich that I feel like she's never suing people over money because it's not an issue. But if she was someone who was like a little bit less famous, she probably would like turn this into like some big lawsuit or whatever.

Well, do you think she'll sue? No. So just to be clear, the current operating theory is that Kanye was recording this phone conversation in California, which has a two-party consent law for filming or recording things. So Taylor had to be aware of the recording or else the recording was illegal. Right. And the reason the recruitment thing came out is because the point is there was like several people involved. Right. So it was like acknowledged that this was like other people were listening to it. And it was so she doesn't have a reasonable expectation of privacy, which I do think is different

than having a reasonable expectation of someone recording. Yeah. Your conversation for a document. to be released on Snapchat, but whatever. I am not lawyer. I mean, that, the fact that there were other people on the call probably explains one of the reasons why, like, maybe Kim didn't think about twice about recording, like releasing the footage, you know? Right. Because that does, like, change the, like, one-on-one conversation versus, like, a business phone call. Anyway, do you think she'll sue? No.

Do you? I think, I don't know. I think it's so stupid to sue. I think it's the worst possible PR thing that she could do. Right. I think that she's handled the PR so badly to this point that she just might. Interesting. I don't know.

I just feel like, ways of the money, Taylor. Keep your dollars. I don't think it's about money. I think it's about just being like this was not. Not okay. Yeah. But it just seems like she's totally in the wrong, like legally and narratively. She has not yet been able to accept that she didn't handle this well.

So why would she start now when she's in a corner? That's a good point. The person who's handled this well for the last few months is Kim Kardashian. I hate to say it. Kim Kardashian. Yeah, let's bring on our Kim Kardashian expert, Ms. Katie Weaver. Katie is a writer for GQ, and she writes cover stories for the magazine, including the Kim Kardashian cover story, which is where all of this happened.

So, Katie, you, like, you witness history. You actually started this, more or less. Is that correct? I have been thinking about this so much over the last, we'll say, you know, 24 hours. I think I definitely affected the timing of it. I think I can confidently say that I made it half now. Okay, so I do think, yeah. Let's go back to you interviewed Kim when for this cover story.

I interviewed Kim in mid-May. Okay. And do you believe that Kim showed up to your interview ready to drop this bomb about Taylor and the recorded phone call? I'm thinking about this. I think she was ready, but didn't bring it up at all. Even when I kind of started broaching the subject, she never mentioned Taylor's name until I directly asked about Taylor. And that's when she kind of went off. So I think it was maybe a back pocket, but I also believe that she would have sat on it for months, if not years, waiting for the perfect time. So what do you think made this the perfect time? No, no, that's hard to say. I think that she probably wanted it in an established sort of magazine. I think she wanted it to have some kind of journalistic weight behind it.

I think she probably knew going in that it would be very heavily fat on our end. So that would sort of lend it an air of credibility. And otherwise, I don't know. I don't know if there was something about me specifically that she felt like, okay, I'm probably not going to totally fuck this up if I tell her. I don't know. But I do think that she's obviously, they've had this recording since it happened, which would have been, I don't know, I guess back around February.

That's when the album came out at least. I don't actually know when it was recorded. And for whatever reason, she sat on it until, what are we in now, July. Yeah. So I want to go back to the fact checking that you guys did. And I also want to go back to February and the letter. But first, okay, you brought Taylor up. How soon from the time that you ask, like, what's up with Taylor?

How long does it take for her to be like, I have video? Oh, good question. You know, pretty immediately in that conversation. It wasn't the first thing she said. But when I brought up Taylor and she started saying, you know, oh, I, you know, Kanye called her and asked for permission. It wasn't too long after. She didn't kind of hold it back and then do a big reveal. at the end. She at least gave the appearance of speaking very normally like, oh, let me lay out the facts for you.

Here's what I think. Okay, because that's what I was going to ask. Like, how, what is her emotional state as she's presenting this? Is it angry? Is it just like matter of fact? Does she sound like a truther? Like, it is very weird to just be like, by the way, I have just like documentary video sitting on a shelf just waiting to ruin her life. she was definitely at her most kind of animated during this part i could tell that she she seemed very passionate about it like she really wanted to convey to me that you know this was how she felt that this is what she believed to be the 100% truth um so it was matter of fact she she did think genuinely upset that conya gets a lot of flack for you know being an asshole and she she she kept saying over and over what rapper would call someone to say that they're going to be mentioned in their thought. She kept hitting that point. Yeah, I find her whole argument that this is just, it's so normal to be talked about, like, talked about this way.

Like, really interesting. I guess it's normal for Kim Kardashian, but it's not normal for the rest of us, I suppose. Well, so we started really generally, like, you know, is it weird that your, her husband often refers to having sex with other women in songs. What's that like? And she was very breezy, like, oh, it doesn't bother me at all. And I do think that if you decide to date and then marry a rapper, you do kind of have to be more comfortable with that.

Like, I wouldn't love if my boyfriend went around talking about other women he has had or would love to. Yeah, I think it's maybe a different thing. I would agree. I'm not open to that either. I feel like also for Kanye being so obsessed with Kim's body, it's weird to talk about having sex with Taylor Swift because she literally is the exact opposite body. So it's like, it's kind of like a weird contradiction. I don't know.

Yeah, that's a very good point. Though, of course, it's... Well, the other thing is Kanye doesn't even say like, oh, I really want to have sex with Taylor Swift. He's just like, you know what? I think this is a thing that might happen. Like, oh, it might rain today. I don't necessarily want it to, but the signs are there. I also don't think he thinks it's going to happen.

Or has any interest in it. Okay. So Kim in the middle of the Beverly Hills Hotel is like, yes, I have some weird, I have some secret tapes. We were actually in her living room. So we were the only two people in the room. Oh, okay. I had to hear over two days. Does that like make you complicit in any way to this legal battle?

I don't know. Oh my gosh. Am I going to get called to court? I can't wait for your deposition. How many people is Kim Kardashian? I don't have anything to wear. How many people does Kim Kardashian have in her house, like, when she's just home? Like, how many bodies are present?

Not a ton. Although I didn't see the whole house. I was just on the ground floor. Her assistant was there, but not present during the interview. Her daughter was there. Her son was there. Her son was upstairs. I didn't actually see him.

But it wasn't, like, crowded full of people. She didn't have a ton of people around her at all time. That's surprising. Which was a relief to me, because as a reporter, as a reporter, you do have to say, like, no, we need to be alone. And I think she's just such a pro that she knows you're going to say that and kind of preemptively clears the space. That speaks well of her.

I always imagine that, I mean, I guess I imagine kind of the Kardashian filming universe when there must be like a bazillion people. But it's nice that they all go home. And it's more or less her. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think definitely filming is a totally different vibe. but I did get the sense that when she and Kanye are home,

they try to keep it so there aren't a billion people in the house. That's nice. Do you believe in their marriage? You've been next to them for a while. If they, I would not be surprised if they stayed married forever. I mean, if they got a divorce, I guess I wouldn't also be surprised because it's, you know, Hollywood. I honestly could see them being married forever. I think they are very good match.

Okay, so let me follow up to this because you make a very good point in your piece about how Kanye is. I think it's Kanye is the artist and Kim is the CEO of the business. Is that the comparison? It's very smart. And the larger point is that they have a very good arrangement that has made them both very successful in addition, you know, that is their marriage. So I totally believe that. Do you believe that they're also in love? I think so because I think Kim is really aware of herself and really likes Kim.

And I think Kanye also really likes Kim. And I do think Kim likes Kanye. And I think also the combo of them, like to make a kid that is, oh my God, I'm great and he's great. And now we both combined to make this child. Like, how could that not be the best in the world? It's from both of us. So I think that they're a family that really love their. Yeah, they seem to genuinely like each other.

Yeah, that makes sense to me. That also does explain why she would be willing to take on the legal issues that are involved in posting this tape on Snapchat, which will get to you in a moment. Right, right. But here's what I want to ask you. So you're in her living room, and it's just the two of you, and she's like, yes, I have these tapes. What is your personal reaction? Like, did you believe her or are you like, oh, I'm now in a room with a crazy person? I definitely didn't think she was crazy because I knew that Kim knew the recorder was on.

And I think, trying to think exactly my line of questioning, she definitely didn't open with the tapes, but she just said, you know, she totally approved that, da-da-da-da-da. And then gradually came out like, oh, we have these tapes, you know, whatever. She's just a professional. She knew what she was saying. She knew she was saying it to GQ. magazine. I also, more broadly, I think that Kanye West doesn't lie. I don't think he has the most normal brain, but I think he doesn't lie. It's just not part of his thing. Like,

there would be no benefit to Kanye, you know, for lying. I don't think he would ever dream of that. I think he would just tell the truth or he seizes the truth. And what with that, you know, I am the genius of the millennium or whether that is, oh, I recorded our conversation. I think he's just going to tell you, tell it like it is. Yeah. Doesn't he have another lyric about sending dick pics? It also proved to be true. Like, he just...

But I don't think he lies. I really don't think he lie. No, I agree with you. Like his lyrics seem far fetch, then they are, like, correct, basically. Yeah, I think it also... Yeah, I think he's probably... He seems to me like he might be a publicist nightmare because he will just say whatever he truly believes.

Yeah, I think that's 100% true. I was referring to the runaway. line where he said, oh, right. I sent, she found pictures in my email. I sent this girl picture of my dick. I believe that's true. And then those pictures were leaked, just like this tape. Yeah, it never, I actually don't know that I needed the leaked photos. And I never occurred to me that that would be false, but yeah. I have another question. How long did it take for Taylor Swift's people to get back to you with their very eloquent, pointed statement that you guys printed in the article? Like, from the time, from the time you reached out, like how prepared were they to

respond to GQ magazine about this? You know, I would say a fairly timely fashion. Kim did not give them a heads up. I don't think. They weren't like, oh, we have it ready to mail. But, you know, they responded in time for us to get it shipped to the printer. I'll say that. So they were working within our deadline for sure.

Here is a question that I have. I was very interested that Kanye West's team was willing to confirm that Taylor Swift had already threatened to sue them, which that's in the piece, right? That at some point, Kanye had already gone and been like, we have the tapes. So you need to, what is the point of going to Taylor Swift's camp and being like, we have these tapes? Well, we did not have the tapes. GQ never.

Right. No, no, no. Yes. Sorry, what would the, what is the point of Kanye going to the Taylor Swift camp? Because that's what Kim said, right? Oh. Yeah, so this is, I mean, this is pure speculation on my end. I would assume that he, maybe when she was reacting and kind of saying, oh, he didn't call for approval, he just called to ask me to put it on my Twitter.

I think he wanted to say like, oh, no, why are you saying? Actually, I have the tape. I think that's, again, just him, like it not even occurring to him to tell a why. That would be my guess. I have absolutely, like, no proof of this. But that's the only thing that makes sense to me. You make it sound so, like, with such goodwill that he would do that. Like, do you genuinely think it would be with Goodwill?

That he's like, no, no, no, it's cool. I think that he, I don't know if it's even necessarily Goodwill, although I do think the call is in Goodwill. And I think when you watch the Snapchats, Kanye does seem to genuinely care that he, like, wants her approval. I think if, and this is, again, total speculation, but I got the sense, at least from the, like, edited Snapchat's everyone saw that if she had said, absolutely not, don't do this, I'm really offended. I think he would have, you know, tried to work with that.

I don't, it seemed like her approval mattered to him. Yeah, I totally agree with you. But I think it's almost like a little kid like, oh, no, you're lying and this is why you're lying. And he was probably annoyed at that point, but I don't think it was, you know, to threaten her or anything or, you know, I don't know. I was here. But you mentioned the editing. What do you think about the editing of the Snapchat video? Let's go.

Let's go here. I don't know. I mean, I would have much preferred to see the full unedited thing. I think we all would have. Yeah, yeah. To a certain extent Snapchat precludes that, but I also

think Kim is obviously this has shown that Kim is a brilliant strategist. So I don't know what was left in, what was left out. I think that she is probably operating under the assumption that it is at least possible

but at some point the whole thing will be released that doesn't seem at this point beyond the realm beyond the realm of possibility there's a TMZ report today that says that TMZ has heard the whole tape

and I'm shocked that TMZ front of the Kardashians has heard the whole tape no I don't understand it definitely is from the Kardashians because if they've heard it they would have posted it except that they're probably trying to protect the Kardashians which leads me to believe that the original tape is not as conclusive as the tape that was posted

on Snapchat. But at the same time, the stuff that's posted on Snapchat is extremely conclusive. She's saying that it's all fine. She literally says, you did help make me famous. I don't know how you argue with that. Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that assessment. I think the tape, Kanye, comes off very well on it.

I think he comes off as someone who is going out of his way to do this. And I mean, maybe the tape that we didn't hear is the person on the other phone saying, like, and by the way, I'm not Taylor Swift, but, you know, from what we have heard, I agree. It does seem to back up at least what Kim is saying. Yeah, it absolutely does. And it just, I mean, it makes Taylor look terrible. That's the thing. Even in the particulars, I just feel like Kim has won this so conclusively.

The Grammy charade is just ridiculous. now. Like her acting like, oh my God. That's the worst part. It's like even if, okay, even like the statement in GQ is correct. Like, yeah, she, you can't approve a song you haven't heard. The assumption, you know, she does say to Kanye like, yeah, it's a compliment. Like, yeah, you did help like make all the statements or whatever. It just makes her look really stupid. Yeah. And when I was talking to Kim in her house, she did even specifically cite the Grammy thing. I think that is really one thing that set them off. is that in Taylor's speech, she gave what a lot of people interpreted as a dig.

She took a dig at Kanye. Kanye and the Grammys. What a tortured history. Yes, seriously. So, Katie, do you feel like the timing? So last Sunday, in addition to the Snapchat video was also the Kim Kardashian video, Kim Kardashian episode, the Keeping Up with the Kardashians episode that talks about the GQ story. Which you were mentioned in it briefly.

Do you have anything that you would like to clarify about how you're portrayed on keeping up with the Kardashians? I would argue that my questions about OJ were not random as they were characters on the show. But, you know, no, I thought it was, I did, I did ask about OJ, I did ask about Taylor. I am 100% the one who brought it up. Kim didn't leave me there in any direction. I think I brought up Kanye and the lyrics first, and then from there I brought up Taylor and da-da-da-da. So, no, I felt like it was pretty truthful.

I have no idea in what order of the rest of the episode was filmed. Right, that's a great point. Yeah, it seemed accurate for mine. I thought there was one scene that kind of got spliced in where she was in a fur code that was from like back in February when she sang. It actually didn't really make sense in the episode, show her on the film of Kanye, and she's saying, oh, Kanye, someone recorded you

when you were upset about Taylor, and that happened backstage to SNL when he was on SNL. And I guess that got added into the episode because it was Taylor themed, but it didn't, you know, we all heard that audio, and it didn't even really make a big splash. I think he was just calling her like a fake ass in it while ranting about other stuff at SNL. So that was a little like, oh, that's in there, I guess. The rest of it seemed to kind of line up with our dates, as I could tell.

Okay. So you don't think they did any last minute additional filming in order to make this, to time this for this video release? Oh, I definitely think the Snapchats were timed to the episode, more than 100%, a billion percent. Okay. I think that the Calvin Harris angle is quix. I mean, I guess it could be part of some larger, like, Machiavellian skiing, but to me, that just seems like an amazing coincidence that, like, you know, the gods have smiled upon Kim and really given her a great viral moment. That they're just really this lucky and this good at it.

That makes sense to me. I didn't, you know, because I don't get, I don't have the sense at all that, like, Calvin Harris knows Kim or is friendly with her. I think it just kind of all happened to come to a head right around the same time. Yeah, I buy that. Do you think Taylor has any chance of surviving all this? I have been thinking about this so much. I don't know. I'm just trying to think of how she could bounce back.

I mean, I think if anyone can do it, it's going to be Taylor. I think she has the right team of people. Yeah, but she's up against the Kardashians. Yeah, that's the thing. And I think that if, and this is all just personal opinion at this point, I think if she sued, it would be a bad book. I think she could only do it if she donated the money to charity, basically. I don't even know if she will bother doing that because, you know, it's just going to come out.

If you sue them, then, like, everything's on the table. I don't know. I think she just might have to chalk this up to an L in her column. Yeah, I think so, too. I mean, I think it's already an L. I think it's over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's, I'm, this is like a spectator.

I know that I, in a weird way, was involved. But as a peer spectator, this has been thing to see it play out. And I was as excited as anybody when she started putting those snaps up. I was following it on Twitter. Oh, my God. I couldn't believe it. It was wild. I was trying to go to sleep and I'd get up for like two four hours.

We all did. And then I woke up in the middle of the night to check Twitter again. It was incredible. It was incredible. But Katie, you were there. you are a part of history. I'm really, just like treasure that for the rest of your life. I hope that this isn't the best thing that ever happens to you, but I hope that it's, I hope you know it's up there because it's very exciting. I'm not coming back from that.

Okay. All right. I think that that's all the questions we have. Katie, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. Thank you for having me on. Yeah, we'll talk to you soon. Congratulations on being a part of history. Thank you. Bye. It feels really good to be close to the flame. I'm glad we had Katie on to really drop some knowledge. I completely agree. Do you think she's right about Taylor? Is this a total L? I think so.

I think so. I don't know. I kind of have faith in the Taylor machine that she'll figure out how to reclaim this, but between the crazy Hiddlestiff situation. Right. We haven't even talked about how this... It's just like continuing to escalate. Huge, huge, like level five, which is the highest level conspiracy theory.

Yeah. I don't even know how Taylor would be complicit. it and Kim posting the videos on Snapchat, but this has certainly taken our attention away from her fake romance with Tom Hiddleston? Yeah. Is Taylor Swift involved in this? No. Are you sure? I'm going with no. Are you sure? You can't put anything about the Kardashians, but I'm going with no. What if it's all a lie? I mean, then it's like, just call my life the Truman show and let's end it now. That would be so upsetting. That would just be so upsetting. I can't, I can't accept that. But like Taylor's must should bump up the release of her next album because I feel like she needs some new material out there to I feel like make her an artist again.

We're pretty close because she's on a two-year cycle in the fall. She normally releases in an October. Okay. So we got a song coming next month probably, right? Yeah. One would assume. Though the only thing is like I don't want any songs she's written before now. No.

You know, you don't want any of, I don't want any Calvin Harris love songs. I don't want any Calvin Harris breakup songs. You want something that addresses. addresses this moment, but you also want something that is like a different emotional register from her. I don't want another like cutesy sort of winking brady response. I like and I just want to be clear I have loved every single brady song. She's written up until now, but enough is enough. Like be a grown up, be angry. I mean, I don't want like a Fiona Apple record from her, but I want something with substance. Interesting. I'm trying to think of like what kind of record I want from her. I was,

I don't want another pop record. Where's for her to go, though? Like, I don't know. Maybe she goes sing her songwriter, pull a McLaughlin. Just get out of her guitar. A girl with her guitar. Yeah.

That would make her likable. Or maybe a banjo. I think she's got to go full instrumentation. Okay. Like, I don't know, some kind of, like, real, like, flexing your, like, she's a good musician, right? Like, she's a talented songwriter.

Flex your musician muscle. I think that's the best move for her. Yeah. I think that that's true as well. But because that's also ultimately Kanye saving grace is like for all of your objections to him. Like he is his impact on music and like what what he does is like truly interesting and different. It's true. And it has a fair amount of.

This is my problem with the Kardashians. It has some sort of reflection. I don't know how honest the Kanye self-reflection is. I would like and again, I don't know how much honest self-reflection I want from Taylor because it'll just be like, everyone's mean to me. Which is not what I want from her. But I want some, I want something considered. Yeah. Like this is, it miss makes me think of, Don't give me bad blood again. That was a shitty-ass feud song.

That was really bad. Petey Perry, though, still just really winning this week. Oh, yeah. She's on top. She's on top. Taylor, Taylor's taking an owl. Everyone else is winning, I think. Yeah, I guess, you know, it was getting stale the other way. So I feel like this is good. We have something new to talk about. And now she's got a mountain to climb. Get back on top. Congrats, Taylor. You've got a challenge.

Thanks for listening to this emergency jam session. Thank you, everyone. Thank you.