The Press Box - Ep. 179: 'Jam Session' With Juliet Litman and Amanda Dobbins

Episode Date: September 7, 2016

The Ringer's Juliet Litman and Amanda Dobbins dedicate a reluctant two minutes to Taylor Swift and then dive in to discuss Drake-Rihanna (10:00), Elizabeth Holmes's Vanity Fair profile (25:40), and Jonathan Safran Foer's acknowledgements in 'Here I Am' (34:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. Today's episode of Channel 33 is brought to you by Seekek, the presenting sponsor for my podcast, as well as the only fan-friendly app for buying and selling tickets for sports and music. With just two taps on your phone, you can instantly buy Seekkeek tickets to an event and you can enter that event just using your phone. No paper tickets. Drop your old ticket app. Use one that's built for 2016. Download the free Seatgeek app or go to Seekgeek.com. And don't forget to check out my fairly new website,

Theringer.com, for the very best in sports, tech, and pop culture coverage. And don't forget about the Ringer podcast network, which features Keeping in 1600, The Watch, Channel 33, Shackhouse, and our Ringer shows for the NFL, NBA, and MLB. And finally, don't forget about my new television show, any given Wednesday, which runs every Wednesday night at 10 p.m. on HBO. And reruns on HBO Now, HBO Go, and, HBO on demand. And now without further ado, here is Juliet Lippman and Amanda Dobbins.

Welcome to Jam Session. I'm Julia Lippman. I'm Amanda Dobbins. Unfortunately, we have to begin this podcast by addressing Taylor Swift. Yes. Here's what else we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about Drake and Rihanna. Obviously, a lot to unpack. A lot. I have a lot of feelings, questions. We have like 10 days of material to cover on the Drake and Rihanna front. We're going to go back to the Old Well, the Vanity Fair. story, Elizabeth Holmes. Bunker story. Vanity Fair keeps on giving. And then

we will also talk about Jonathan Saffron Fowar. Congratulations on Pub Day, Josh. John, sorry, John, his brother is Josh. It works. But first, a reluctant two minutes on Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift and Tom Hiddleston broke up yesterday. No shit.

It's just like, you know... Were they ever together? What's your final verdict on this? I think that they were together. I think that they were together, and I think that there also a music video. And if I had to pick an exact date and time, I would say that the music video will be released next Thursday at midnight EST on Apple Music.

So I guess Friday morning, midnight AST. Interesting. Is that outside of the Grammys window? Well, she can release the single now. It's like as long as she releases the album. So to explain the eligibility for this year's Grammys and September 30th. So if you release an album for September 30,

then you have to compete with Beyonce and Frank Ocean and Kanye and a bunch of people that Taylor Swift is not interested in competing against it all. Right. Adele. Oh, is Adele even in this? I believe so because in her song, her record came out like last November. What a year it has been, Juliet. Hello from the other side. I can't believe that was in this calendar year. Yeah, so there's no way in hell that she's going to do that.

But I think she could release a single. She often, you know, following the Taylor Swift two-year cycle. where she releases an album in October of even years, much like the San Francisco Giants win World Series, in octobers of even years. She usually releases a single in August. So there's a decent shift. Shake it off with a late summer jam.

So a lot of people have been asking me this. Like, do you think that she will actually release an album this fall? No, I don't. You don't? You think she's smart enough to read the room. Yeah, I think she's on the shelf for now. I disagree. Interesting.

I think she's what her plans don't change? Well, I think part of it is just that she's such a giant business at this point. Mm-hmm. And I think giant businesses move so slowly. I think that a lot of this stuff was definitely planned and in the works much longer. Like before the summer, before the whole Hiddleston backlash situation. And it's like, you know, you can't turn around a giant ship as quickly as you can. A kayak.

Yes, exactly. We're well past the Taylor Swift's kayak. So I sort of think, the reason I think that she will still release the music video fairly quickly is because it's easier just to get it done with and be like, yeah, we did this thing, we made a music video. I think she can, within a certain amount of time she can play it as like, we started this project together and then we fell in love and then it didn't really work out. But like, here's music video and now we're moving on.

But here's our art. My wish for Taylor Swift is for her to just like take some time. off and then make her own behind the music about like her bad 2016 or something. I think that would be really funny if she like made her own documentary about like the like her side of the narrative. Like she's already set it up. Like she's already said like I did not ask to be included in this narrative. And so that's like a perfect place to begin your own narrative.

No, it's really true. And if she could do it with self-awareness. Yeah, that'd be great. Which she really kind of. Yeah. I don't know whether she's capable of that much self-awareness. I don't either. Someone in her world must be though.

I also just, is it that? useful to like her bottom line. I don't know. So like a problem with boy bands is that the fans don't age well with them. And Taylor Swift's fan base is very, very young. And so I wonder like as her fans get older, like if you go to a Taylor Swift concert, there's so many young girls or their moms. I wonder how that will affect her. Though that's been, I mean, she's also been recruiting young fans for what, like six, seven years now? Yeah. So I, she seems to have proven that she can sustain an audience. Yeah. Like more so than a boy band. And, you know, you and I are also. there. And she's taken seriously by critics.

To be fair, I'm also with boy bands, though. Yeah, that's a good point. So am I. But, you know, I think beyond us, there are people who are very interested in her music and who take it seriously. Yeah. And she, you know, performs at the Grammys, which I'm sure One Direction. Did One Direction ever win a Grammy? No. Yeah.

The greatest... Not that the Grammys were like an arbiter of anything. No. But the greatest boy band moment was when, uh, insincted the Bee Gees tribute at the Grammys. I don't remember this. It was really good. They did like a little how deep is your love? It was really great okay all right that's that's enough taylor i'm so sick of taylor swift i do hope that i hope that she's smart and doesn't release an album and takes some time and comes back and it's a painful album

it's like an album about what it means to be a woman and all of this shit and like have people pay attention to you and instead of i don't want a tom hitleston breakup up right or just like a max martin record which like sure some of her own tunes would be better some of her own pain i love a singer with pain Yeah, I would like pain from her. And I think that distance will help. Distance will help the album. What's the name of her publicist, Tree. Tree Pain, right?

I believe, yeah. Tree Pain. But I also just realize it's very close to T. Payne, one of our greatest artists. I mean that earnestly. Now I'm wondering whether Tree Pain is actually her name or whether we just want it to be. One more question. And I know I said this was reluctant in two minutes, but do you think that Tom Hiddleston will ever get cast in a movie again?

Like, probably in, like, a British movie. Yes, okay. Go back to where you came from. But his crossover appeal is totally done. Yeah. Yeah, I tend to agree. No one likes Loki anyway. I actually liked Loki, and I don't like those movies at all.

I don't give a shit about Marvel. But, yeah, I thought that he was very charming as, as Loki, but. He should be on a masterpiece, like, eight-parter. Yeah. See you on the BBC, Tom. Great. Okay. Have a great life.

Fantastic. Fair of you well. Moving on. Okay. Drake and Rihanna. One thing that I realized about them, they both go by their middle names. Do you think that's why they like each other? Yes, I think that's the number one connection that they have. It has nothing to do with physical attraction whatsoever.

Okay, glad we settled that. It all began in Toronto per Drake when he was just a youngster on Degrassi, who was giving his services for free at some restaurant where he DJed. And apparently he met Rob and Rihanna Fenty when she was recording. or she was shooting a video. Is it Ponda Replay? Yes. That's pretty great.

Pondon replay Rihanna is underrated Rihanna. Do you think Rihanna remembers that at all? I bet that he's like told that story before. It's like a kid. You've heard a story so many times that you're like, oh yeah, I sort of remember. Yeah. Sure.

Let's fast forward a bit. Okay. It all started again, the current era, with a billboard, with four or five billboards, I believe in Los Angeles. Yes, congratulating her on her video, Michael Jackson Video Vanguard Award. How did you feel about this?

How do you feel about Grand Jester's generally? I don't think I know this about you. I don't really care about them. I think they're nice. If I bought five billboards, maybe not me, because it would have like a different tone to it, if a suitor, if you will, bought five billboards across the city of Los Angeles.

for me. I was like, congratulations, Juliet, on the success of the ringer and all your many achievements. Love. Souter X. Souter X. And everyone else at Suter X is like, you know, low company. Considering that's something that would happen in a rom-com, I like it. Okay.

But, like, I'm not like, oh, I need a grand gesture. I guess I like it. I guess it's sweet. How do you feel with the five billboards? I think just one would have been better. I was going to say. I'm thinking through it. No, I would be more.

Because it's like on Dawson's Creek when Pacey buys Joey the Wall. Then like that kind of thing. I was like, oh, yeah, that's great. Yeah. And he paints on and asks me to stay. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was great. So I feel like if you pick like one main point of like come here, like this is like our spot of like

where we're going to have some kind of like emotional moment, it's better than like the commodification of like five billboards. I would agree with that. It doesn't very, very Drake to go for five and not just one. I mean, let's have a whole conversation about very, very Drake in a minute. That's a thing that we have to explore at length. One final question. How did you feel about the font? Unimaginative, however, on brand with like everything that OVO is about.

Wow. But as you know, I'm like really like quite into fonts and fonts are important to me. Right, this is why I asked you. Yeah, so I just would have wanted more. I don't know. Like cursive is like the font of love. I'm just like, eh. Yeah, that's true.

Also, the thing is, like, Drake is also into fonts based on, like, his mix tapes and stuff. So I just feel like, or someone in the OVO camp is into fonts, I think. So you can see kind of the work behind it in a way that, yeah. I mean, the whole thing is just a level of thirst that is. Yeah. It just was like, like, what's the font for love, cursive? No, there's plenty of other choices. Okay, follow up question.

What is the best font for love? For, like, what should suit her X? A serif font. Like, something with serifes. Like, I think courier's a great one. Very, like, typewriter-y. No one is going to buy you a courier billboard. That is not a romantic declaration of love.

Disagree. Wholeheartedly disagree. That's okay. You know, it's definitely not the font of love is, like, some kind of, like, Wes Anderson, Futura, Sancerra font. Looking at you, Frank Ocean, that track on your record. Oh, wow. Okay.

Yeah. Frank. Is it thought wars? I didn't know this is going to happen. Frank. Ryan can totally get down with some courier. I know he can. I think he used it in the liner notes of Channel Orange, too.

Yeah. He uses something similar on Tumblr. I'm not, listen, please, fondners of the world, do not get in touch to let me know what Fon Franco should use is. I would love to be talking about Fons. I want to exclude myself from that narrative. Okay, back to the billboards. What did you think?

I mean, okay, the billboard, the speech, it's all part of a thing, right? Which is just that Drake is the corneous person. And like he's so corny. When he allows himself to be corny, it's actually pretty charming. Go ahead. I thought his speech was corny and very, I thought that was cute. I preferred his speech to the billboards. I really, there should have been, you know how like CNN during the State of the Union will kind of have the poll numbers in real time, like the live reaction. You should have had one for me during the Drake speech and it would read like a heart monitor Because when I, like, I vividly remember this, when he's walking up just in the tux, ready to give the speech, I was like, I'm blushing, this is really, this is cute.

I, you know, I'm into this. And then he started talking, and I was like, no, I'm not into this. I'm hiding under the couch. And then she tried to duck the kiss, and I was very excited. Anyway, yeah, he's pretty corny. Yeah. And I think it's okay as long as he's honest about it. And the billboard is sort of like a, it's very cheesy, but it's knowingly cheesy.

and I'm like, this is silly, but it's kind of cute. Yeah. And I would hate it, but also, like, you almost can't hate something that that is... I think even Drake knew that it was a little bit embarrassing. He's like, I'm going to do this to embarrass you, which I think is always a sort of nice... I don't know, that's how I express love, which is a whole different conversation that we can have, but I like that. I have some more questions on the billboard. Yes.

Who at Camp Drake knows how to, like, who's, like, the media bias? who like gets in touch with like clear channel to release the billboards or whatever. I just tell I'm always curious about that. Like how does that happen? You have to assume that MTV was also part of it. Yeah, just because it is doubling as that's true. Promotional. And maybe MTV is to blame for the font then.

We at the ringer were very hard on MTV for the VMAs because the VMAs this year pretty much sucked. Yeah. With the exception of Beyonce's performance and Drake's performance. And Drake's performance. Rob Herbilla wrote a very good piece about this, and he did make the note that the Drake thing is the only moment that was worthwhile, and it was engineered. They made a specific choice to have Drake capitalize on the relationship and present the award, and I assume that the billboards were part of that.

Right, that makes sense. Okay, good point. Good point, good point. So, you know, then, okay, now I'm thinking back through this. if it is just like a joint promotional thing. Does that change how I feel? I thought the thing about the speech was Drake was talking as Aubrey,

and like Drake on stage, like during a concert, is very, very different. And even if he obviously was still performative, like he was, you know, part of like this elaborate stunt. But I just thought it was kind of sweet. Like I just like when celebrities talk in like a normal voice.

And like the thing that was so corny about it was like how like Aubrey Graham delivers language is very different than like, Drake who's like stunting about like strippers in Houston. Well he was just so nervous. Yeah. It was so cute. Was it though?

I was just like, I mean, he was nervous and it was cute for a minute and then I just had the realization that I was like very watching their power dynamic and the realities of their relationship in real time. Yeah. And I was a little close to that, I thought. And I was like pretty uncomfortable. I don't know. I guess I want the performative stuff.

And it was really excruciating. And then he tried to kiss Rihanna, and she ducked it. Yeah. And she mouthed some words. We don't exactly know what the words are. What do you believe that they were? I think it was that wasn't funny. That wasn't funny.

Yeah. What did you think? I'm compelled by that. Yeah, it seemed pretty accurate. There is kind of the tricky thing, which is that at the end of her speech, they kissed again. And the camera, for those of us watching at home, the camera was kind of wide. you couldn't really see, but it did seem like she was slightly more open to the kissing.

Sure. So that would maybe indicate that she wasn't as angry the first, like that she's generally okay with it? Sure. Yeah, well, it's interesting. Like, he's giving her, like, a professional award and he makes it, like, emotional and, like, personal. And how did you feel about that? I've been in love with you since I was 22? I thought it's, like, something Kevin Williamson would have written for, like, Pacey.

So. I know, but, okay, so this is the question is, do you want Drake to be Pace? Casey? Kind of. I go back and forth on this. I don't know. Like, I was just so into Degrassi. Like, and I was so, okay. So, like, I, like, feel like I came to him, you know, Aubrey was here for me first. So, and I, like, just, I remember watching DeGrassey unscripted when he, like, took you into his home when he was a teenager. I remember. I've watched that on the, on YouTube, too. No, like, I watched it when it was on TV. Like, I was watching Degrassi then. I DVR'd it on Noggin channel.

Like that was like the summer of 2006. I was watching them. Okay. All right. So you're okay with it? Yeah. I am a little uncomfortable with it still. You know, I like Corny Drake because I don't really believe it when he's 100% bravado.

It's just so clearly a performance. But I want him to be slightly more evolved past theater kid Drake. Sure. You know, here's the problem. I want Drake to be cooler and secretly he's like, Not that cool. No, definitely not. And that's okay.

Sure. And I don't want him to be super cool. There's a balance. And the VMA's speech did not find that balance at all. No. I don't like Swaldry because it's just like so incongruous with who I think he really is. Yes, I would agree. So that's like why that gets back to why I like the speech.

I was like, yeah, you're just like a loser. It's great. I'm into it. I'm so uncomfortable. I think also just a level of awkwardness there. I can't really. Sure. I had no problem with that. I enjoyed it. I also like awkward encounters, though. So,

okay. Like, it was, like, in my wheelhouse. I think the other thing that I had trouble with, and then I'm still having trouble with, because, so the latest news, well, the absolute latest news is the jewelry heist, which we'll come back to. But the news earlier this week was that Drake and Rihanna got matching tattoos of a shark that is like a, it's a version of a stuffed shark. that Drake bought Rihanna when they went to an aquarium. Right. Okay. I just like, I want to believe that Rihanna is cooler than this.

I just, that's the thing, is that I want to believe, and I have believed, and I do believe, like, I still believe that Rihanna is above this, and I just don't, why are you getting a matching stuff shark tattoo? It seems like a bad idea. It seems impulsive. I don't even care about the permanence. I'm just like, that's just, that's lame. Yeah, sharks aren't that cool. It's, they've been, you know, too many people.

The shark visors really had a moment. Maybe she should get one of those, too. Oh, God. I don't know. So we were talking about this a little bit this weekend, and someone made the very good point that if Rihanna is dating Drake, then she's not as cool as we thought she was, which is a very harsh realization.

But I guess that's true. I think Rihanna might be cool. I don't know if she's a lot of depth. I think that there's not. a ton lurking underneath the surface, which is fine. There doesn't have to be. Rihanna lives in the moment. I'll give you that.

And that in the moments where he's being fine, I guess it's a fun thing to do. Yeah. It's interesting. Rihanna is like, Rihanna and Katie Perry don't write their own songs. And they're like performers. And Rihanna's a really good performer.

And like she feels like she's performing so often. And so when she does something that is not performative, like perhaps getting a tattoo. or like even the way that she just like will be sometimes like on the beach when you see paparazzi photos of her. Right. It's almost like jarring because she is like from such a young age, she has been like brought up in this world and really flourish in it. Like she's one of the best pop stars there is. There are.

Well, I mean, I was going to say she's a great performer at everything except like singing live and dancing on stage. Yeah. She is she is the best and most successful example of what a pop star should, what a successful pop star looks like in 2016, which is that you're kind of like always on tour. You have a million successful, like, fashion or beauty lines. Yeah. You look impeccable in every single paparazzi photo. Totally.

And, you know, all designers are designing everything for you. So she's, like, managed to corner a bunch of other worlds through the music world, which she is good at. Yeah, absolutely. And she's also, like, you know, she's similar to Katie Perry. They both, like, grown up in the music world. in like a fairly successful way. And so when she does something that's like outside of the persona

that she's like living so often, it's kind of like surprising. You're like, oh, that's right. There's a real person here who's not just like singing and dancing to. Or just like smoking blunts and on a surfboard on Instagram. Yeah, totally. That's, those are great points. Thank you. And you're right that there are people.

But I don't, that's the other thing is I guess that I don't really want. to see them as people entirely. And the VMAs, I was just like, oh, okay, too awkward young people doing something in public and then getting shark tattoos unsubscribe. One thing that's interesting about that specifically is like the VMA's ratings were really low, but the social media, like, impressions were extremely high. So if you're only digesting Drake and Rihanna in like 15 seconds or less, you're like a still image, I wonder if you have any of the same feelings that we're having or even like have

feelings to work through because you're probably just like, ah, great couple, celebrities, Oh, geez, ah! Though, counterpoint, there was just like an insane amount of speculation of the, uh, what Rihanna said to him. Yeah. It was like, subruder level, so. That's true. Did I say that?

Did I pronounce that correctly? Yeah. Okay. Great job. Thank you. I just didn't know where the emphasis was out there. Yeah. Well, also like her just like, like Sunningham basically.

Yeah. It's pretty cool. Shout out to Rihanna. A shout out to MTV, I guess, for, like managing to pull that off and what was otherwise like a pretty dismal VMAs. Why do you think Drake was late? I don't know. He said traffic.

What a mundane excuse. I mean, it was in New York. That seems reasonable. Take the subway, bro. Jay Z did it once. One time Jay Z rode the subway. Okay. And so today there was news that someone broke onto one of Drake's tour buses and jewelry was stolen.

Yeah, he's like his DJs tour bus. A lot of misinformation about this. But it seems that his DJ. had a lot of jewelry stolen. And then there's a mediocre but still pretty entertaining 10-second video on TMZ with no audio of Drake just like milling around in front of a bus and making angry hand gestures. A lot of angry hand gestures, which I relate to. Totally.

Justiculating. Yeah. Showing his anger. I like that he's upset for his homeboy. Sure. That's cool. I mean, you know, the security in general should protect that. So he is probably also worried for himself if we're being honest.

Absolutely. Um, Drake's funny. I don't know. I think Drake's here to stay. How long do you give Drake in? Rihanna? Yeah. Not making it into Thanksgiving.

Wow. No. I mean, I know that they... Not that either of them celebrate as two non-Americans, but... That's true. But, you know, from my own calendar. Yeah, I... They've just been on and off so many times, and this is the most public they've been,

that you have to figure... I do also think that it's good for their careers. Yeah, especially his right now. Yeah, because his record didn't do that one. You know, I think he's always been trying to make it happen, and she doesn't really care. I'm very happy to hear too good on the radio more. What a wonderful song.

Fantastic. Way better than one dance. Wow. Yeah, I guess that's true. I don't know. Just like Rihanna sounds great. I forgot to give my Song of Summer Report. After my international song of Summer Report, it's definitely One Dance.

I heard that all over Europe. Okay. Congratulations, Drake. You've won the summer. But now it's time to move on. Let's talk about our sponsors for. first. Juliet, I'd like to tell you about our sponsor, Blue Apron.

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There was some chicken. Nice. Like a chicken Francazi. Cool. And then also some cassidyas that I'm going to make tonight. But it was great. There was a lot of variety of ingredients. It was very easy to make.

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I'm getting it next week, actually. I'm pretty excited. Nice. And a summer udon day. noodle salad with cherry tomatoes, corn, and summer sweet pepper, which I did not know about, but I would like to eat. Check out this week's menu and get your first three meals free with free shipping by going to blue apron.com slash jam.

You will love how good it feels and tastes to create incredible home-cooked meals with Blue Apron, so don't wait. That's Blue Apron.com slash jam. Blue Apron's just a better way to cook. Okay. Let's talk about this story from this. Vanity Fair. Different kind of scandal going on than we usually discuss, but too juicy to ignore. Extremely gossipy. Vanity Fair has a long article about the downfall of Theranos and Elizabeth Holmes.

That was the company that claimed that through a finger prick they could do all this blood testing, which turned out to be scientifically impossible. Yes. We'll get into the gossip, but on the science front, I really liked that Vanity Fair explained in like under two sentences why her idea was like impossible to achieve. It was a crystal clear explanation of why it doesn't work. And I was like, that's a great writing. So Elizabeth Holmes has been famous for, I think, a couple of years now. And she had gotten a lot of attention, but she kind of really blew up with this New Yorker article by Ken Aletta that ran in 2014. Yes, I think she also simultaneously got blonde hair.

Yes, that's true. Just want to note that to come part of her look. So I actually went back to read the New Yorker article, kind of be like, how did they miss all this? New Yorker is usually pretty diligent, does a lot of fact-checking. Yeah, by the way, all of the skepticism and reporting was in the New Yorker article, and none of us paid attention to it. Interesting. Which was very interesting.

You know, I think it was probably not quite as definitive because the various government organizations were not fully investigating at that point. But it has all the scientists being like, yeah, here's why this doesn't work. Right. And here's why. And it's because you get too much skin debris. Right. And like and there was the science stuff and they were also kind of pointing out she's like extremely secretive and it's really weird which the New Yorker article makes a big point of

I remember a big red flag was that she wouldn't allow peer to peer reviewing Which is like like essential in like medical academia worlds and like medical journals right and so there's been a big to do of how she like every other You know egomaniac entrepreneur idolizes Steve Jobs right and especially the secrecy of Steve Jobs, and so half the New York article and a lot of Vanity Fair article is about, like, the extreme insane lengths that she went to to make sure that no one else in her company knew what was going on, that no one could actually investigate the claims that she was making of her product that works. She got away with it for a long time.

Long time. Really fascinating. Yeah. And the way this article reads, like, it's just, like, incredible. Basically, she was, like, an embattled CEO. And instead of, like, addressing her staff or the media, she just, like, hit. And then she went on a... Well, instead of addressing the staff or the media,

she ignored all of the science and then, like, kept doing TED talks and kept, like, hiring literally Henry Kissinger for her board and kind of kept self-promoting and being like, I'm going to change the world. I look forward to the day when TED is gone. Just want to throw that out there. It's true. Be wary of anyone who's at a TED Talk.

Yeah, seriously. I'm sure we know someone who did a TED Talk, and now we're in trouble. Definitely do. Anyway, yeah, the thing. that's interesting about it is that she was so intense about the secrecy while also just

according to the Vanity Fair article anyway and according to like most of the media in 2015 just because she was everywhere just intensely self-promoting and positioning herself as like the first self-made female billionaire and the next team of jobs and like the future of the world and the

savior of XYZ Reminded me a lot of Tracy Flick from election yes strong Tracy Flick vibes yeah just sort of like so singularly focused regardless of if it was a good product or honest or truthful. Yeah, but so this is interesting. She's, there's obviously a movie. It's incredible.

And this very fair article, which was written by Nick Belton, is written, honestly, like a spec script. It's fascinating. There's a, she had a, a scientist who dies of cancer before he can reveal, no, no, I'm sorry. He was sick with cancer and he attempted suicide before he could reveal the problems with, like, with her company and he was in conflict about it, which is incredibly sad and also... Totally. You know, like, it's like the storyline in a movie that you'd be like, eh, I don't know that this is real and it turns out that it's real.

And the company tried to sue his wife or talking to her reporter. Yeah. And also, of course, she was dating her second in command. Yes. Who was much older. Much older. Which to very first credit, they actually sort of vary. Yeah, it's like not a focal point in the article at all. And I said to you on the way over here, like, I wish they had written about that more. But I guess that would undercut the like business focus of the story, which is more important.

Of course, we're writing about a woman and all you can write about is her romantic stuff. So I actually credit them for doing that, though. I am very curious to know more. And I'm sure we'll learn about it in the movie, which is being developed by Adam McKay. Nice. Here's our great recent historian, Adam McKay. By the way, watched the big short recently. still very concerned about Michael Burry investing in water and what's going to happen.

Just like be in touch if you know about that. Jennifer Lawrence is going to play Elizabeth Holmes. They kind of look like. Sure. They look alike. And you've heard of Jennifer Lawrence. And I think those are the only two reasons that she got cast. And I do not agree with his casting.

And I'm concerned about it. Who do you think it should be? You know, the Tracy Flick comparison is correct. So Reese Witherspoon is obviously too old. Sorry. That was really harsh. It's okay. Elizabeth Holmes is much younger.

It's the reality of Hollywood. I feel terrible now. It's not quite right. But she at least has that, like, type A manic. Sure. What about Allison Pill? Allison Pill is good. Kirsten Dunst is my pick.

Oh, interesting. Because Kierston Dunst is my pick in life. But also, because you need someone with the Tracy Flick, like, I'm going to kill you. Like, I want this, and I'm vengeful, and I am going to stop it nothing. Like a Fargo, Kirsten Dunn? Yeah. Or like a, yeah, what's, Bachelorette, which we were talking about.

Just like an actual mean person. Sure. Here's the thing that I think is going to be annoying about this movie. It will definitely be the trying to humanize her. Being like, this is what it takes to be a woman in the industry. When from like everything we know, she was just self-obsessed. Right. And it won't, you know, it would be more interesting if it played her as a straight villain.

Sure. But if you're casting Jennifer Lawrence or like 90% villain and then there's like that moment of humanity with like the close-up and being like, maybe I shouldn't have done this. I just wanted to save the children or something. I don't believe that that was Elizabeth Holmes' intention at all. But anyway. No, I think that she had an idea that she thought was like revolutionary, but it was actually scientifically impossible. But like so many incredibly successful CEOs, like believed in her own grandeur so much that it motivated her. I just, Jennifer Lawrence is not that type of person. Jennifer Lawrence is a joy kind of situation.

And it's just, I don't think it's right. Yeah, I hear you. I have a couple more suggestions. Megan Hilty. Are you familiar with her? Oh, interesting. Smash? Yes.

She played a bitch on the good wife, which made me think of that. And another good wife bitch is Mamie Gummer. She was great on the good wife. Mimi Gummer is an interesting one. Thank you. Yeah, that's pretty good. She played like a really, like, ambitious, like hard-nosed lawyer who pretended to seem like very like sweet in court. That was great. So yeah, so I feel like she could have been good for

this. Yeah. Adam McKay, if you want to revisit this casting. Fortunately, Hollywood has no shortage of tiny blonde women. I know. Who can look angry so they can figure it out. I think Jennifer Lawrence's neck is a good size for turtlenecks, however. She's got kind of a long neck. Oh yeah. That's the other thing that she wears the black turtlenecks with a black puffer vest to differentiate from Steve Jobs. And she also wears like wide leg black slacks, which are very unflattering. It's also just like it's not, You know, we had that moment in 1998 with Express, but we've moved past it. Totally. There's plenty of slacks she could wear that would be better.

One of my favorite parts, while we're just talking about her weird habits, is everyone talks with such, like, amazement that she drinks green juice all the time is like, this is a sign that she's really weird. Yeah, have you been to California? Or New York at this point. Have you met Bill Simmons? He also loves a green juice. I actually get, I have now drinking green juice from the commissary.

Yeah, it's delicious. The one that she likes has celery in it, which is celery is the worst ingredient in green juice, just FYI. I don't like when they go too heavy on lemon. Okay. Yeah, then it becomes lemonade. Anyway, Elizabeth Holmes seems a little weird. That's fine. We should all be weird.

Yeah. I just... The crazy part is she's still trying to make this happen. She's trying to, like, rebuild the company. She's, like, actually delusional, I think. The kicker of the Vanity Fair article is amazing, where he just, like, goes and stands in front of the building. He's like, I'm not the only person who is here. The FBI is, too.

And you're just like, oh, shit. I'm glad that this is, like, being taken seriously by the government, though. I feel like it's the kind of thing that could, like, slide by. Yeah. Almost dead. What's fascinating in the article is that it seems like the government actually has been taking it seriously for a long time. Yeah. And that she has just been so successful through Silicon Valley, whatever.

And also probably, like, the media's negligence because you like a good female billionaire story. Sure. Don't we all? That we just kind of ignored it. Yeah, it's such like a tech 21st century, like the culture of tech. Exactly. It's like somehow. It's like a closed loop of feedback.

Yeah, it's fascinating. It really is. Last fascinating topic. Perhaps the most fascinating of all. Jonathan Saffron Ford's new book is out today. Or perhaps it was yesterday, Tuesday. Tuesday. It's called Here I Am.

I don't plan to read it because I've already read the only page that matters, the acknowledgments. Okay. I have not read it either. I think I'm going to read it just because I like to, you know, I think I should know what I'm know the enemy. Yeah, know the enemy. He's not even my enemy. He's, well, yes, he is.

Only because of the acknowledgments. I had sort of like a fascination and this is very entertaining until Amanda Hess, who writes for the New York Times, posted a screenshot of the acknowledgements page at the back of Here I am. It has some things I don't care about. and then it thanks like Scott Ruden or whatever. That's pretty absurd. I was like Scott Ruden is in your acknowledgment. So your books aren't even option.

Good to know. One, two, three, four. It's like four business people. And Scott Ruden is one of them. It's like he's practicing for his like Oscar Best Adapted Screenplay speech or something. Thank you to Scott Ruden, my agent. And who else is he going to be thanking? Okay.

So Sasha and Sye. Those are his kids. his kids. He just says, thank you for inspiring me to try and your patience while I tried. Cute, fine, whatever. Nicole, his ex-wife, thank you for being such a wonderful mother and friend. You know what, classy. That's nice.

I like that, even if they had a terrible divorce. But we're not done. Lastly, thank you, Michelle, for making an office where I could finally write and a home where I could finally stop writing. That it undoes all of the classiness with the thinking Nicole. I want to light myself on fire. It's so... I'm filled with rage. It's mean.

That's mean. Okay. Step one. Michelle is Michelle Williams. Yeah. Michelle Williams, the actress, not Michelle Williams of Destiny Shop. Who they've been dating. They apparently like live together part time in Dimmis Park or something.

I mean, apparently they do based on the acknowledgements because this is his home. But anyway, one, the Michelle is just like gross. your celebrity dating stuff out of it. Agreed. Even if you're trying to deflect from the Natalie Portman stuff, which is just hilarious. I just also, if you're, it's not a good look to just be trading starlights in and out of your life. I know.

Also, in many ways, Michelle and Natalie are interchangeable. Yeah. Second of all, why is Michelle making him an office or a home? She's a successful actress. She has other stuff to be doing. Totally. She's busy. Why is she cast as like the weird homemaker?

whatever. There have all, just the level of sub-tweeting that is being thrown in Nicole Krause, who was mentioned in the last sentence, it's so cruel. It's such like a hard, yeah, it's so unfair. It's like, like, indicting her for, like, being, like, not conducive to his career. If I read this as Nicole Krause, I actually would go set fire to the new home where he could write. Like, are you kidding me? The amount of, and do you think he even knows? Like, do you think it even occurred to him that that would be an insensitive thing to do? The thing is someone else, several other people saw this before it was published. I don't know. It's not my life. You know, he can do what he want. I don't know what's going on.

I've just read, like, ridiculous gossip reports about all of them. I shouldn't be... Sure. I think there's also, like, the focusing on, like, the home and, like, the, like, space of the home is also annoying to you because her last novel was about, like, a desk and, like, a writing space. And it's just, like, it's a little too close for a novelist to be doing that. I don't need to dictate what they do in their own lives. I don't. And I realize I don't know them. And people should just be happy. Like, I understand they're real people.

That said, have some sort of awareness of how it's going to be read. I know. And, like, protect your ex-wife and your kids from it. Also, like, leave your kids out of it. Like, they're, like, part of this whole... Or maybe just, like, thank your kids and move on. Yeah. Those are the only ones who are forever.

Negotiate your romantic life on your own time or in emails. That's for your journal. This is not for your published book. Anyway, it's a doozy. I'm just glad to have this whole storyline happening, though, I will say. It's one of my faves. It's fascinating. I really thought that it kind of, like, tipped back in his favor a little because the book was out,

and people seem to sort of like it. Yeah, I think it's getting decent reviews. You know, so maybe we could just talk about the work. But then he had to do this to himself. I know. I know. I say, like, we could talk about the work. Like, I want to talk about the work.

I don't. I just told you I won't be reading his books. I will read the book. I'm going to give it to Deliwick. Report back. Yeah. Report back. You'll let me know. In the meantime, wow. We'll be watching. In the meantime, hope you all enjoy

the continued exploits of Rihanna and Drake and Jonathan Zafford for that matter. Thanks for listening and thanks to Blue Apron. Thank you.