The Press Box - Ep. 181: 'The Masked Man Show' With Steve Kazee and Joel Solomon

Episode Date: September 9, 2016

The Ringer's David Shoemaker is joined by actor Steve Kazee and AGW writer Joel Solomon to discuss CM Punk's UFC debut, Triple H and the belt appearing on 'SmackDown,' Sasha Banks's "Bad News" promo on 'Raw,' and the first pay-per-view 'SmackDown' post–brand split. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to the Maskman Show. I'm David Chewmaker. I'm here with Steve Kiz. I'm here with Joel Solomon. How you doing, guys? Good, good. Good, man. You are the face that runs the play-thier.

And that's why it's an audio podcast. There's a lot of stuff to talk about this week. We got backlash discussion coming up. I went to Ebola two out of three nights. We'll talk about that. But there's a lot of news that just sort of dropped in the past little bit. You sent me a note. Joel, that it looks like the Crispin-Wa biopic is officially back on.

It looks like time has passed, and now this is okay to make this movie. Oh, boy. You're hearing about this for the first time? Well, I haven't got any auditions for it. That's exactly where I wanted to go with this. I have not heard that. Would you entertain Steve, for everyone listening to this who doesn't know, Steve is an actual actor who has acted on television and in movies, movies?

No television so far. television and stage. Stage, well, a Tony Award winning stage actor. And as you Google and IMDB and Google

image, I can vouch, you could do this. You have the physique. You have the... You just came from the gym. He's sitting here in a sleeveless bullet club t-shirt.

If we mess a tooth around or two and... Yeah, yeah. What is your feeling? Like, would you entertain that opportunity? Or is that, is that territory off limits for you?

Well, I think your first question is always, who's the director? and we have Lexi Alexander from Punisher Warzone. Okay. I actually liked that movie. Yeah. And apparently she had retired from directing.

She'd retired from movies and came back because this was such a good script. Who wrote the script? Sarah Coulter. Oh, interesting. I would, you know, look, I always say read the script and go from there. And then you find out who's attached to it. I mean, I don't know. I would never say never because let's be honest,

there is an interesting story there that a lot of us may not know, still. Maybe they have information that a lot of us don't know. I think there's a course to be charted to maybe tell that story of what actually happened because I think it's easy to vilify a human being for a horrible acts. But given recent things that have popped up with CTE and concussions and things, I think there's maybe some something to be gained from a deeper conversation. I think it's a tough hill to climb. Well, I mean with, you know, stepping on eggshells, that's kind of what we talked about it. But I might have been wrong about that author.

Hold on. Lexi Alexander responded to a tweet as if she was responding to the screenwriter. But anyway, it's based on Matthew Rendezzo's book, Ring of Hell. But anyway, jump back in. Yeah, no, that is what we just kind of talked about it. Any Given Wednesday is, you know, just in one of these tangent conversations is here's a guy that was like whitewashed from WWE history. And we unthinkable act.

And now go figure X years later. Well, maybe the CTE and 15 concussions might have had something to do with this. Yeah. Well, I think that was talked about at the time. I mean, there was, there was a lot of discussion, especially when the autopsy finally came out, that he had the brain of like a, you know, an 80-year-old Alzheimer's patient or something. Yeah. I'm just judging by the, what, just the scans of the brain. So, yeah, I mean, it's a real story. But, you know, it's also a really grisly story that, I mean, And it's like, it's like... I will say this much, in a lot of ways, Foxcatcher was a really difficult set of material.

And then I thought they pulled that off pretty well. So, you know, it was a very dark movie and there's no way to sort of candy coat a guy being shot to death. But I don't know, you know. I never say never. There's been weirder movies out there. It also comes down to Russell Crow saying,

can I win an Oscar for this? Ultimately. But like, honestly, 10 years. 10 years too late? Too late? That'd be a great casting call, though. Leo Schreiber's name passed around. Yeah.

I mean, he played Sabretooth, so, you know. Another rabid character. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's just so, it's so weird to think about as interesting as it would be and as fun as it would be to see it done well. I think we've all been burned by wrestling-related projects, not always been being done to like our, you know, to whatever, however we fantasy book. I mean, listen, we fantasy book, that's a huge part of our fandom.

It'll be impossible, almost impossible and not be disappointed. Also, I mean, who's going to that? That's not exactly like a date night movie. Yeah. I mean, that's a rough one. You've got to be going for awards season stuff, right? That's going to be like indie movie or something. I don't know.

That's a tricky one. That's tricky. Oh, man. Regardless, I am, I am free. Okay. I'm not working at the moment. It's going to be like you and like an incredibly steroid old Tom Hardy squaring off for this role. So you better get back.

You might want to go to the gym a second time to. That's right. Anyway, speaking of people who have been whitewashed from, from WWE history or who are risking it, apparently Alberto del Rio has left WWE exercised a clause to get out following his suspension. And as of today, news came out from the wrestling observer, I guess, that Page has lawyered up. I don't know if it's just in an effort to kind of combat the suspension or if she's, if they're, you know, something deeper as a foot. There were reports, and I'm reading here from Wrestling, Inc.,

there were reports that, oh, on an MLW radio, that Mark Carrano, WW backstage presence, had approached Page and Doe Rio separately and harassed them about their relationship, and they split them up on the brand split to try to get them apart. WWE did not approve of this relationship, and then them getting suspended at the same time, I think was definitely a kind of a shot across the bow.

What relationship are they not, a relationship they don't approve of? Yeah, exactly. You think they've already set the bar very low for what they're going to approve of? I mean, I feel like we've discussed this. There's only WWD relationships. Yeah, so. That's totally true. I mean, it's just sort of like, I'm of two minds about it.

I mean, of course, and, you know, you can have whatever relationship you want. We've all been in, you know, kind of wrongheaded relationships. and we don't even know whether or not this one really is a problem. It was toxic for the locker room, clearly. Yeah, but I mean, if WWE doesn't have, with all of the great improvements and advancements they've made and development and talent relations and the sort of, you know, over the past five years or so,

if you don't have a means of going to your people who you've had on the roster since they were 18 and just sort of like having a good enough relationship to talk this out, I mean, not to necessarily get them to break up, but just to get to a place where we're all comfortable with this. Yeah. It just, it sort of speaks a lot to the backstage culture outside of this relationship, I would,

I would think. Well, I think that you're sniffing even this much of it must mean that on that base level, the backstage level, it must have been something really powerful. Because with us being able to speculate about it, that's enough that has leaked out that we can sort of piece together. So you can imagine what the real story is happening.

For sure. Usually they would use it for a storyline. Right. Maybe this is a storyline. Well, good morning. Look at you. This is... Go ahead.

Everything's a storyline. Well, no, I mean, who knows? Maybe Del Rio, I don't know, like poisoning page or just saying, getting... Literally poisoning her with illicit drugs. Well. Enough to get her suspended. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that you're right, Steve.

I mean, I think that there's probably a lot more to it. It would be, it was, I just couldn't help but think when they announced that Del Rio was leaving or when the word came out, I just couldn't help but think how loud we all popped for Del Rio when he made his big comeback. Was it SummerSlam last year that he made his big comeback? What event was it that he came back?

I don't recall. Yeah, but when he made the big comeback to 10, he beat John Sina. Yeah. And Sina took the little vacation. Yeah. I, um, it would be really funny to do like,

retroactive, like, rating the pop. Like if, like, if that, like, if we had known then what we know now, Like when Chris Binwa came out, we'd all kind of be like, you, yeah, not clapping so loud. And when, like, Del Rio makes his big return and we're all going nuts just because we're surprised, we'd just be like, yeah, that didn't really end well. I mean, look, you're talking about a guy who was let go from the company for smacking this shit out of somebody backstage. In a seeming, like, if any smacked was justified, maybe that one was, but it's not.

Like, sure, you're still, you still work for a company, though. Sure. You still, you know, you're not like in a backroom brawl. I understand someone speaks to you that way outside. You got a problem. You can handle it. do whatever you want to do if that's how you want to live your life. But you're talking about a billion dollar company. And these guys, I think, sometimes lose sight of that. And, you know,

the machismo gets a little bit in the way and, you know, somebody gets smacked. But we are talking about celebrating that guy. So clearly we're talking about someone who maybe has some issues. Yeah. I met him. I interviewed him one time. He was incredibly nice and incredibly, like, intelligent and soft-spoken. And that doesn't mean anything about who he is as a real person. But, you know, that's my experience with him. Yeah. Anyway, that's, or is there any more, is there any good news that we can go to at this point? Well, we, we, we have CM Punk. This could be a quick chapter.

I don't know if this is good news or bad news. This is yet to be seen. Wow. Oh, man. C.m. Punk is making his UFC debut after a long, you know, long, a long wait. He had a back surgery in the middle. And I don't know if you guys have seen any of the kind of making of CM Punk documentaries that are, many docs that are on YouTube. What we're seeing, I mean, I just saw the first one, maybe the first two.

It was the very early days of his training. But it didn't lend much confidence to his campaign to go from fake fighting to real fighting. It is such an interesting story, too, because it's like kind of the polar opposite of Lesnar, whereas Lesnar was a fighter and Lesnar is a huge beast. And you're like, you know what? Even without like an intense amount of training, I could see him lasting. CM Punk, you know for mic skills. CM Punk, you know for being a personality. That's why I low, extremely low expectations here.

Well, Tate and I were talking about this at lunch. I should say that we that the ringer.com published a great piece by Chuck Menonhall today, Thursday, as I'm saying this, about, that kind of chronicles all of the various pro athletes that made the leap to MMA. Most all of them wrongheaded, like terrible decisions. There's, you know, James Tony and Michael Westbrook and Herschel Walker. Johnny Morton Johnny Morton got his

like just got knocked out like I've never seen anybody get knocked out and the Green Power Ranger who had previously challenged CM Punk I don't know if you count that as an athlete but I think he was a martial artist

and he was most famous for being an actor but yeah I mean it's it's not but Brock Lesnar is obviously the exception to the rule he was a guy that could have been a UFC champion

that just kind of took a detour into WWE he could have been the champion anyway. Punk is just a weird thing. I mean, a weird case. I don't think that UFC really cares whether or not he wins or loses. I mean, if he... I don't think they have any skin in the game.

I mean, if he wins, great. If not. It's going to be a lot of people watching. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's all you needed is to get some eyeballs on the fight this weekend. And seriously, I mean, good for punk for, like, pursuing this dream and finding a way to do it. I guess, you know, I've tried to talk to people who... I've tried to talk to some sort of experts about it.

have one of my good friends as a fighter and talk to some coaches and just some, you know, other writers, nobody has an answer to this because it's just so bizarre. But the general consensus is the odds of him winning are just microscopic. You know, I mean, it would just the idea of that you would go, that you would really concentrate on being a full-time cage fighter at the age of, in your mid-30s or whatever, and then, and that anything could come at that would, is almost impossible.

I feel like the UFC actually has more riding on Mickey's Mickey Gall winning this fight than they do CM Punk winning this fight because Mickey Gall is an up-and-coming fighter who's going to be a big deal at some point. And he's already, you know, made quite a name for himself. 24 younger. Yeah, exactly. He's got a big, I mean, right. I mean, that was.

So you get all these eyeballs on that guy and he ends up beating CM Punk. Boom, he's already, he's on to the next level for your, for your company. Mendenhall referred to it as the CM Punk sweepstakes. I mean, it's the, it's whoever, whoever wins this fight is going to emerge a star and the odds of CM Punk winning are so low that, like, everybody wanted this. fight because you could just come out a million times more famous than when you walked down. Well, what's a win for CM Punk for you if he gets out of the first round? I think if CM Punk gets out of the first round, I mean, like a real, like the real moral

victory, if we're going to assume that he's not going to win, if he survives, if he just gets his face beat in for three rounds, but makes it through three, that's top. But after that, if he makes it through one round, I think, I think that's a small moral victory. I can imagine punk with a wry smile on his face at a broken arm after the match being interviewed by Joe Rogan and having that just be like, all right, well, you know, good for you, man, you tried. And you did more than most people who say they're going to try it would do. We'll see. I get the sense from the interviews that I've watched and the people who talk about it in UFC

that there's not a real sort of sense of like awesome that this guy's doing this about it. I think a lot of them feel a little slap in the face like, oh, you think you can just come in here and do this. And then on the other side, I think it's going to be very. interesting to see what the wrestling community's response is to it. And I mean the actual performers in the industry because you may not see a lot of people going like, hey, congrats. I totally agree. I think there might be a lot of guys, you know, or maybe not, but like a Ryeback very much watching like, hmm, let's see if this, if he can hang. Yeah. Because it is

definitely a road. Yeah. You know, we can't keep making the T&A jump and back and forth and back and forth. Yeah. I mean, Bobby, Bobby Lashley made the jump to MMA and then got his T&A deal on the side. But yeah, no, I think that, I mean, listen, the only way I'm going to give punk the benefit of the doubt, like there's a, there is a, there is a way that he wins. One, I mean, it would be that he's like just secretly incredibly gifted. He was born to do this and just that that's the, and, you know, he discovered it while he was training.

I mean, it would be like if Michael Jordan picked up a basketball for the first time at the age of 30, he would never have been Michael Jordan, but he probably. still could have like somehow forced his way into a pro. It's like Michael Jordan the baseball player. Yeah. That's a good example. Exactly. But, you know, the odds of that are just vanishingly small.

The other thing that I'm actually really interested in, because we don't really have any frame of reference for it, is if you, if you go to one of the best gyms in the world and you train for a year, a year and a half with the sole purpose of not embarrassing yourself. Does the level of training, is the level of training high enough that a relatively athletic person can get to, can look like a reasonable fighter in a ring after a year? Sure, but the 24-year-old guy who's been training for the last five years who has actually been doing this for a while is stronger and faster than you already. You're almost 40. Like there's a lot of problems with that rationale. I mean, yeah, it's going to keep him probably alive. like you and I would probably die within the first five seconds. You know, like I said, I could run away from McGregor for at least 15 seconds,

but at some point he's going to catch me and beat the hell out of him. I don't care how big I am to him. And it was very interesting. Like that's kind of like what Jay Glazer echoed when Bill interviewed him. That you can't train for for when the second, that door closes, the bell rings and someone's trying to kill you. Yeah. Like it's not, we're not training in, you know, a gym anymore.

We're not, have mask on and people that can break it up. Even just thinking of that makes me want to... Well, you saw it in Diaz-McGregor. Yeah. You saw that in Diaz-McGregor. They were aghast after the first round. Both of them. They tried to murder each other in that first five minutes.

Like murder each other. It's a crazy sport. I would never do it. It's really nuts. I'm just going to mark out when I see A.J. Lee. I'm just going to be honest. That's why I will watch. I actually would like her two-star.

fighting. Pingo. Yeah. I mean, they have some, some of those women's weight classes, the straw weights and

stuff, like she could probably, she'd probably fit right in. Maybe. But yeah, it's going to be, although those, those girls,

those women are scarier than most of the guys 10 times their size. I mean, they throw, they throw cinder blocks, man. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So this Saturday will be, you know, a very, a very interesting, very interesting non-wrestling night for wrestling fans.

I mean, I said on the podcast before, we went to, I was at, I was at SummerSlam and then a bunch of people ran across the street to a bar to watch the Diaz McGregor fight and when that CM Punk promo came on, the crowd went nuts. I mean, that was like one of the biggest pops of the night,

including SummerSlam. And it's, I don't know, I don't know. I just, it'll be interesting to see what happens and what the general vibe is. I can just, I just think, I worry that too many wrestling fans are just, just, have talked themselves into the, the thought that punk might win and are going to be disappointed. I'm curious to see how many people, W.W.E. folks or wrestling folks in general are actually at the fight. Because I feel like maybe, you know, does Haman go? Does Lesnar go? That's interesting. Yeah. I know, it's like, what kind of crossover do we have? Because that relationship is. If he had a whole, what if he had a whole faction, like the, like, you know, like, you know, like wrestling. Like, what do they, how do they get in here? It's like, well, they bought tickets.

You can't say no. It's like Vince sitting front row. That would be, Vince just staring daggers the entire time. That would actually be worth, that would be worth the price of admission right there. Yeah. But yeah,

I guess Cole Cabana won't be there. Apparently they're fighting now. So this is like summer. I mean, this is the summer of wrestling, of just terrible wrestling rumors. Oh, yeah. I mean,

who knows if they're true, but it's always, it's just fun to, it's fun to imagine these things. I don't know, man. I got a lot of other, I mean, is there, we'll talk about the Cruiserweight Classic next week because we got a lot of other stuff to talk about.

But Zach Sabre Jr. had a really great match with a really cool finish that people were going eight for. And I saw Zach Saber Jr. wrestle this weekend at the Battle of Los Angeles, PWGs, Bola. I saw a bunch of awesome wrestlers wrestle this weekend. I really cannot recommend. I mean, the last time I talked about Pete. On the show, I think everybody turned off the radio, I mean, turned off their podcast like immediately. So I'm only going to talk about this for a second.

And it will segue into WWE. But yeah, I mean, to a lot of the people that were seeing on the Cruiserweight Classic, you know, came up from the indie scene. A lot of the people that were seeing on Raw and on Smackdown, like winning big things came from the ending scene. And PWG has kind of positioned itself in recent years as the spot as like the launching pad for a lot, especially since, you know, there's a lot of people who were. also in Ring of Honor and, you know, Dragon Gate even, but PWG is, especially Bowler, is sort of like the Super Bowl of Indie Wrestling in a lot of ways. So it's really cool to go watch. The level of wrestling is just like off the charts. And the vibe is really good and it's just, it's a very small venue and kind of expensive, kind of really expensive for, you know, what you're expecting

to play for an indie show to get in, but it's worth the money. I mean, it's not more expensive than like a big WWE show. It's just less seats. But, you know, it was, it was... But it's so... It is funny as like everyone keeps trying to do more production, how, you know, this indie takeover sometimes with just less production and with wrestling and a little more gritty

is kind of sometimes the way to go and how I think a lot of fans wish T&A would go instead of trying to recreate like WW90s or... Yeah. Or just current WWU. Yeah. The bromans and the... Hyde Bros is like I'm I just want to slap somebody.

The most, the highest production value of the entire of the entire Bola weekend was right before the main, right before the big final match for everyone that doesn't know, it's like a three-night tournament to crown the winner. The guy gets a trophy, he wins Bola, he gets a title shot against now the title holder is Zach Sabre Jr. in this case. And then on the last night, there's like the semifinals and the finals. And then the, the last match. is a triple threat.

So all of the guys who are in the main event that's wrestled three times in one night. Okay. Is that right? Like the kumete. Huh? Like the kumatee. Yeah.

You know, the kumatoj. Yeah, yeah. So, but the best special effects in the whole event, since you brought it up, whereas in the match before the main event, while they were giving these guys time to catch their breath, they had a giant 10-man tag with like all of the stars who weren't in the tournament that night,

including WWE standout Cedric Alexander and who else was there? Well, Chuck Taylor, who's a great indie guy. Tomaso Chompa, who's in NXT and was the Cruiserweight Classic, too. He was there.

Let's see, Trevor Leet. Wait, no, no, sorry, I'm jumping around. Jeff Cobb, Chuck Taylor, Sammy Callahan, who was briefly in NXT. Matt Riddle, who's a former MMA guy who will be in WWE someday. Pete Dunn. Tommy N., who just signed with WWE and is going to be the world champion within two years.

He's just amazing. Brian Kendrick was in the match and got a huge spot, but if that's not legendary enough for you, Juschen Thunder Liger was also in the match. No, but it was like, you know, just like 68 years old and still wrestles. It's the same outfit with just like, you know, I'm sure some like man spanks underneath and a wig instead of the long flowing hair or whatever. But at some point in the match he did the slow mo the remote control trick

Have you seen any have you ever seen this on a version of this on YouTube? No That was my next question He pulls out of remote control and like pauses his opponent It's just it's a joke match right With all these guys in it He can pause his opponent and then he goes slow motion And they just they work the match for like five minutes in slow motion

And it's the most amazing thing you've ever seen And then as you're watching it just mystified you start realizing that all of the hardcore fans are in are doing it too and everybody around the ring is just like cheering in like you know just like fist pumping in slow motion and reacting with just like you know like their faces like shocked faces in slow motion and it's like the most surreal and wonderful thing i've ever been a part of as a i've seen it on you two i'd never it never happened to me as best i can remember and it was like you getting caught up in that is just something else involving the fans at any level now as part of a gimmick or

I mean every show now like the crowd just wants to be a part of it and that that does sound really cool I will talk more about bowling coming weeks when when when the moment arrives and I'm sure I'll bring it back up 10 more times in the show but the one thing that bears mentioned is that Cody Rhodes was there wrestling and he was he yeah I tweeted during it during his first match it's like hey like an unshocking moment of the weekend. I realized I remember that Cody Rhodes is a really good wrestler. Yeah. He was very, very good.

And his wife was there as his personal ring announcer. The crowd went absolutely nuts for him. He didn't have to wear makeup or... No, he was just wrestling as Cody Rhodes. He actually was wearing... He came out and he was wearing like the long tights instead of the briefs and had a bomber jacket on for whatever reason that he wore to the ring and tossed it in the crowd. and then, but he actually had like

PWG tights on and his boots said, Bola on it, like, he just like, I guess he was just showing that he was willing to spend the money. So he won the first match on night two when I saw him, and then on night three, he lost, uh, and, um, spoiler alert, sorry, I guess people are going to be watching these DVDs at some point, and you should,

but this is the best wrestling you'll see. I mean, you'll, if you like the Cruiserweight classic, even a little, you'll fall in love with, you know, these DVDs. Um, but, uh, but, but, yeah, He got, the show, or his match after he lost, he got the please come back chant. Like, the crowd there was so respectful and chanting. And he, um, he took off one of his boots. He actually lost a boot in the match.

He took off his remaining boot that said Battle of Los Angeles and he gave it to a girl in the crowd. And he was like, here's my proof that I'll come back. I'm going to come, I'm going to come get this back from you next year. Nice. It was like a really touching moment. I like Cody. Cody's great.

And, and, uh, it bears mention that, um, one of the hilarious news stories this week is that WWE is trying to stop him from. using the last name Rhodes on any televised wrestling show. Okay. Because they own the rights to Dusty Rhodes and that's not his real last name, then... Might I suggest Cody Rex? Yeah. Oh, that's good.

Thank you. It's just a weird thing. I mean, it's just like, you know that you're going to resign him someday. Probably sooner rather than later. Left on such nice terms. Yeah, everything was great. And instead, it's just like, what is he... I get it if there was like WCW, you know?

Like, you can be a dick to your, to your competition, but you got to be good to the guys. You'd be good to the talent, you know? You don't have to be a, anyway. Speaking of all, well, before we get to talking about how the indie guys that have made it all the way up to the big leagues, we're going to take a quick break. Do you love books, but fine, you never have the time to read them?

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Wait, if you don't love your first pair, it's free. It doesn't matter. You have no excuse to try them out. Make sure you go to meundies.com, slash M-A-S-K-E-D masked to get 20% off your first order and use my link so they know that you're a real humanoid. All right, and we're back. We just got done talking about the Battle of Los Angeles, where, you know, Zach Sabre Jr., Will Osprey, all kinds of like the best, like I mentioned, Cedric Alexander, Tommy End, my guy, Chris Hero, some of the best indie wrestlers in the world were there.

You know, I left, watched Raw this week, watched Smackdown this week, and the thing that I just couldn't get out of my head was that, like, indie wrestlers are the stars of WWE now. I think there's not, we've been talking about it over the years, especially since CM Punk, who we just spoke about, and Daniel Bryan. But, man, it's just so weird to see Kevin Owens, like, fully ensconced as your Raw heel champion. Yep.

AJ Stiles is challenging for the Smackdown title, sorry, the world title this Sunday at Backlash. And we talk about them like their indie guys. You overlook the fact that their opponents, Dean Ambrose and South Rollins, are like indie guys one generation removed. Like it's gotten to the point where they seem like establishment wrestlers. That's the crazy thing.

Rollins now seems like the establishment guy. Rollins was a skinny dude doing Phoenix splashes in, you know, in like bingo halls. Not that long ago. Dean Ambrose was like cutting his forehead open with a weed whacker in backyards and these two guys are establishment now. Yeah, it's crazy. So which do you think, because it does seem like one of the shows, they almost want to push SmackDown to be like, well, if we moved, you know, the old kind of WWE show to Smackdown and Raw maybe is like this new generation, you're going to see new faces, new voices, instead of kind of like the same old Raw. It is tough to see which you think is going to get that movement more.

Whereas, you know, Randy Orton guys, I think, who Seamus, they're more now on Smackdown, except for AJ. No, Seamus is on Raw. Shamis is on Raw? Yeah, Seamus and Cesaro are having their best of a million series. Yeah. Which has actually been pretty entertaining. People were complaining about it up front, but like this is a solid use of two. I'm not saying these specific guys, but of wrestlers that you don't have other pressing plans for.

this is a good use of their time. Rather than them just having these matches for a paper view feud that you're not interested. I agree. At least there was like a built, there were built in stakes. I agree. I thought it was strange that they did the one,

that he won the one at not a televised performance and now it's three to one. It was like, uh, oh did he win the un-televised? Yeah, he won the untelevised. Well, he had to win. I know, but it's like, that's a weird setup though.

They're like, okay, let's just burn off a couple where people aren't watching because I don't think it's going over so well. This is like Bill Goldberg when he like, so his winning streak just would get patted randomly like between shows. 138 and no the next fight. It's like 162 and 0. Yeah, they should just make it a best of like a best of a 100 series match series feud and then just do all do like 98 of them off TV. Right. Then you put the 99, the 99th and the 100 match out of paperview.

They could probably do that. Probably easily, yeah. Yeah, man, this is a three months. This is a wonderful idea that we've had for them. It works in every other sport for playoffs. So what do we think about it? We're now just over one weekend to the Kevin Owens era, Steve? I was shot.

I mean, look, I stood two summer or two WrestleMania ago in Santa Clara, San Francisco, whatever. I stood in the little dining hall afterwards with Kevin Owens and Finn Baller, and I took a picture that night and I tweeted it out and I said, the future of the WWE. Because at that time, I mean, it was just so clear cut that they were going to be the next big thing coming up. And then Owens came up before Baller, which kind of shocked me, but not that he didn't deserve to. It just I thought Ballard they'd get him up as quick as possible. They pulled Owens up really quickly.

Right. I think it was right after that WrestleMania, I feel like. It was pretty close after that. So I'm not shocked that he's got the belt. I thought once Baller lost it, it would go back to an establishment guy for a little while. And again, not that Rollins is establishment, but it's enough of an establishment. He's this John Cena-style safety valve at this point. Yeah.

So I was pleasantly shocked. And I've said on this podcast, I think Owens is the best heel we've had in a very, very long time. He just understands how to be a heel in this generation, the social media generation. He knows how to play all those angles. And he keeps it alive. But have you ever seen him live? I mean, he just talks to the crowd for the entire match and just picks people out. So good life.

Yeah, it's just what it's a perfect combination for, in my mind, a perfect heel champion. I was really excited to see a Triple H promo on Monday. we didn't get one, but I wasn't disappointed because Owens picked up all the slack. That line that he had about how, where he said, you know, the fans were chanting, you deserve it. And he was like, and you're right that I did. But they were stepping all over my moment. You know, like, there was nothing.

Like, that is how to, that is how to, like, how to go from face to heal or, like, you know, how to, like, cut off the face turn that the audience is trying to force on you. Yeah. In one line. It was just so masterful. Yeah. The suit was, you know, I definitely didn't see that coming.

Oh, it was so good. And it's interesting how, you know, WDB with these long storylines that drag out, drag out, we're going to make you wait for it, and how Finn Baller's injury, when they had to scramble, and you know what, let's just do this, let's see how this happened. Yeah.

And how many good things came out of it. Yeah. How, especially now with Triple H, what's going to happen there with McFoli or, you know, ran by you, does this mean we're going to get, Shane versus Triple H

eventually or Stephanie have to make a choice so much good came out of this oh and by the way you're still gonna have Finn Ballar coming back in a year Right Oh yeah I was just

I was just literally like lying in bed imagining this This is my wonderful life And for some reason It was just occurring to me last night Just if Finn makes his return At like the rumble

You know if that's number 28 Is the demon entrance I mean like We don't like 99% of the fans still don't know who Finn Baller but that would be the greatest moment. You know, like it's, like the idea, this is the terrible, wonderful thing about wrestling

is that getting hurt and coming back from being hurt is the coolest thing you can ever do. Yeah, well, under such legendary circumstances, I mean, the dude threw his own shoulder back in and the beginning of the match, finished it, won the belt, you know, just sort of adds to the mythology. He's going to be just fine. He's going to be just fine. Dean Ambrose, I'm not sure. My God, nothing makes, I feel anything more.

tainted now, then just we'll put it on SmackDown and it just doesn't. Let Dean Ambrose chew through it for a couple hours? You mean just the belt itself? Yeah, the importance, the significance. I find it really odd just based on what we've seen WW do over the past 10 years that they that they put that world title onto SmackDown. I get why they did it for immediate reasons, right? You want to validate SmackDown.

Right. You want to make that brand look as big. but to put the belt on SmackDown, then create another title that just like is clearly meant to be bigger and it's on the bigger show. And but the interesting thing to me is that the legacy of both the WWF title and the WCW title functionally are now stuck with this world title on Smackdown that is clearly the second tier belt, right?

Like the hundred years of wrestling history, like whatever, they're both connected to that belt. They were making a big deal about that when they unified it not that long ago. Yeah. It's interesting. I love what Ms. is doing right now. And when Ms. is like, this is the most important belt on the show. Kind of, you're making it for sure.

Yeah, no, that's a, people can, you can talk about what, who wrestled for the Intercontinental Belt, you know, 20 years ago. 20? Yeah. Can we go back to this indie thing for one second? Sure. So I was thinking about this the other night, actually, because, you know, my Wednesday nights now are like NXT Cruiserweight Classic and thank God Lucha Underground was back last night.

I'm like, can't get enough, Lucha Underground, man. But I was thinking about the idea that, like, I feel like it's always been a sort of, like, indie pipeline, right? But we just didn't have as much access to it back in the 80s and the 90s. Like, you know, Terry Bolaea was not, he didn't just decide to go be in the WBE. That's a good point. Or the WWF at the time. So I think, you know, it feels like a very indie fresh time right now. But I also think we're also in a very sort of indie hip post.

modern hipster culture where it's like, you know, almost cooler to watch Lucha Underground or go to a PWG show if you're a wrestling fan, which I think is actually good for the business because you see it's like college sports, man. The guys are trying to make money, so they're going to work super extra hard. You know, these guys are trying to get up in a spot. And so I think that's why you see all this creative innovation and like, let me be the new fresh thing and have the cool, fresh move. And they're just really talented guys. Yeah. But it's changing the face of the industry. I totally agree. I mean, I, I think it is, I mean, I've said before that, like, Lucho Underground is as much as I love it,

like, isn't, it wouldn't be as much fun without WWE to compare it to, right? Right. Like, it's the fact that it stands out. Right. And, you know, one of the great things about a lot of, I mean, most good indie shows you'll go to, I mean, but PWG, you know, is the one I went to this weekend is they have this, this night, this mix of just insane athleticism, like the really serious matches where guys are doing things that no human should do.

and no, you didn't think a human could do. Right. And, but in a grueling, you know, these grueling long matches, like I said, guys wrestling three times in a night. And just really cool, just really cool stuff, but also combining that with a level of comedy that, like, WWE can't get there either despite, even with when they have Santino Morella or like, you know, whatever, Eugene, they're still hampered, they're still kind of like on a very narrow track and they're kind of pushing the, like, they're going up, they're running

up against the boundaries, but they're not, they're not going outside of it. of it. So like, you know, it's just like, you know, the young bucks are a tag team that everybody loves on the Indies and they were in TNA for a while as Generation Me and they, you know, there have been talks that they would eventually come to WWE. But they wrestle in like a fully postmodern style. Like, that is what makes them awesome. I mean, they, they, uh, talk loudly through their matches in like a, in like an ironic way you would talk, you know, like one guy's, like, as one of the brothers is bouncing off the rope, his partner in the corner, yells do something really athletic, you know, you know, just like they're, it's, they're like

dictating this stuff. They had their finishing move is called the Meltzer driver as like a very like ostentatious way to get five star match ratings, you know, and they like it's, they're very self-aware. And that's the thing that, you know, WWE for all their recent toying around with reality, I mean, that they've been doing it forever. They're still not quite ready to go there. It's the constraints of corporate safety at the end of the day. Like the WWE as much as we sometimes forget is a multi-billion dollar. corporation. So when they lose, they lose big. And so you can't have the same sort of boundaries, or lack of boundaries, I should say, that the Indies do. You know, you can't get away with some of the

stuff that Lucha Underground is going to get away with right now because Spike is trying to make an, or L. Ray, it's trying to make a name for itself. It's trying to get, you know, people watching. It's, it wants people to be tuned in. So they're going to keep hitting people in the head with chairs. They're going to break shit. They're going to swear. They're going to, you know, they're going to let women and men wrestle because as well they should. You know, you're starting to see the Bailey match the other night when she got a little bit of action. I was like, oh, are we going to sort of update things now?

We're going to jump onto the modern train so we can let men and women wrestle each other, like other people are doing it and having no problems. Yeah, it's a corporate mentality. They're still sponsors. They're still on a major network. But there's like things they could do. You bringing up at the indie show where you saw the remote control, which sounds hilarious. If that was a gimmick in the WWE, they would run.

that into the ground. And like that, even the New Day stuff and Zill and Cass right now. Guys, don't leave them out there hanging 10 minutes to do comedy. These guys, you brought them in to be wrestlers. They're not Jimmy Fallon. And now you're leaving them out to dry for 20 minutes to do bits. Yeah. Which is, and it's kind of brutal sometimes.

Well, I'm going to throw this in before we move on. But as a Luchafan, you'll appreciate the Pentagon Jr. and Phoenix, we're a tag team. over the weekend and fought for the for the for the for the PWG tag titles nice they were so over like they were the big like Phoenix and Peter Panagon Jr like might have been the biggest baby faces in the house and I don't think they were supposed to be people just were like everybody there is such fans of Lucha that they were they were great I was more excited for the season premiere of Lucha Underground last night than I should have been as a 40 year old man I mean I was jumping and the fact that the honky tongue man is in the first little like

bit with Dario Querta, I was like, oh my God, you got the honky talk, man? Like, I'm all in. I'm all in. We got to do a deep. We get to do Alusha underground deep dive in like week three or week four. Bring me in, man. I will for sure. But you speak, you said, you were just saying, talking about hanging people out to dry.

I want to get a little bit into a raw, some stuff that happened on raw, but they hung Sasha Banks out to dry. True or false. So bad. I'm so glad you brought this up. Because, man, we're, you've given her everything. And now, oh, like, you actually even said this weeks ago. Like, be careful.

Let's not push her too fast. Let's let her mic's girls get better. And now, oh, no, you're letting her hang there out to dry. Exactly. Yeah. The whole night was so weird. The whole episode? Well, I'm saying just even focused on her.

Like the tweet, I've got bad news, you know, and sort of everybody, speculating on a retirement and injuries and all that. I thought that part was brilliant in the sense of like promoing what you're going to try to get to on the show. But you better have a payoff for that. And it better be better than Dana Brooke running out. Yeah. Like, I'm sorry.

But there is Charlotte. I mean, she's going to be wrestling Bailey for the championship. I mean, she's, I don't know this. Are we set, we're setting up a Sasha Banks, Dana Brooke feud now? Like, I was very confused. Here's where. I just assumed that Sasha, didn't they say Sasha was getting a rematch? Am I crazy?

Maybe. I'll be honest with you. By that time of the night, that all went down and I had sort of waited for the bad news and it was Dana Brooke. I got very angry and just turned the television off. I think it was the bad news was intended for Charlotte, but she was not there. Right, but if, right, okay, so that part of it makes sense to me. That's kind of a funny thing. I got bad news.

The bad news is for you. Whatever. Right. Yeah. But nothing, read under that light, nothing that Sasha said makes sense. Nothing. Like she wasn't,

it wasn't like, you can take this two ways and I'm going to, but, and you don't realize it until she says the other way. No. She just said a bunch of things one way and then just said, no, I admit it.

It's crazy. And, I mean, retirement. Yeah, no, Charlotte versus Sasha is for the championship. Oh, okay. It is a,

or a clash of champions. Here's where I will tell you. Not to be confused with Clash of the champions. Wait, is it not? Oh, no. Clash of champions. Here's where I thought that. I'm just shaking my head.

I did not realize that. This is where I thought this was going. And this is where I thought this could legitimately lead to something, especially from a group of WWW legacy that has been buried the last three months. So Sasha Banks, again, comes out there and talks about the women's movement. And we've gotten rid of the butterfly belt and the pillow mask. I mean, she's bearing the divas without, she's just not saying divas. Yeah.

Why not bring back Keebler, Tori Wilson, Ashley Massaro, Candice Michelle, all these greats and be like, you know what? F you. What do you bet? You're bearing us? We pave the way for you. And there's just, I think it's time maybe that these divas after weeks of months of getting stepped on.

And Sasha Banks would be the perfect person to bully up on her or be like, Oh, we can't wrestle? That's actually a really funny idea. That's honestly where I thought they were headed. The only problem is most of them couldn't wrestle, though. That's the thing. Agreed. So they're going to get the shit kicked out of them.

Well, that's a good point. But they've done this with every other group of wrestlers from ECW, legend matches, and you're just crapping all over. Well, Eve Torres was getting pretty good by end of her run. I really have enjoyed her stuff. And she's like married to a Gracie right now or something, right? Yeah. So she's, and then, I mean, I mean, I mean, I'm not.

I've always been, I always thought Kelly Kelly was sorely underrated. She was not the best, but she was okay. I'm trying to think who else. Well, but Sasha clearly, I think she mentioned Trish and Leader. And that was it. Which, who were? Those are just the only two people. Like the only, it's hilarious because, I mean, women's wrestling in WWE does not have much of a storied history.

But the only four people that ever get mentioned are Mula, Wendy Richter and Trish and China. That's the... He said women. He said women, I think. That's really not kind. I'm sorry. By WWE.

Yeah, I guess you're right. Yeah, she didn't ever really get brought back to like be a part of special events and things. You know who would be great. I don't know if they've actually talked about signing. Like, you wouldn't even pop a little bit if any of the Divas came? Well, I was going to say the person that, Like one person that actually has maybe a legitimate path back would be Maria Canellas because she's married to Mike Bennett and he's always, he always is getting looks from

WWE. Yeah. But and she and she was huge for a while. Yeah. She could, she could have that. She, I mean, she could fulfill that role. By the way. Tori Wilson?

Tori Wilson. Yeah. Not to stomp out on the divas. They sold a lot of playboy issues. Oh, not doubt. I mean, come on. It was an era. Yeah.

It was definitely an era. Sasha can do better. Sasha deserves better, but also Sasha can do better. It just felt like they sent her out there with the script at the last minute. It almost felt like an improv class where she had a script, and yet people were yelling, like, her emotion or her intention at her, like, every 30 seconds. Just like, pretend you're lying. Now pretend you're sad.

Now pretend this is all a joke. Like, it was just like it was the weirdest. I just couldn't, it had no, it didn't have the rhythm of the flow that she, I don't know. So my dream is an actor to go to, any sort of wrestling company and teach the performers how to speak like human beings. Because we all have wants, we all have desires. All of the things that she said in that ring, I firmly believe that she means. Yes, absolutely.

Except she didn't explain it to us like she meant it. So you have to find a way to connect those things because otherwise, like you said, it comes off seeing like, and this is the emotion of my first part of my speech. And now I'm sad. And now I'm angry. And I'm angry. And that makes me sad again. But here's the turn, and it gets sort of formulaic, and we don't buy into them.

We don't care, you know, at the end of the day. And I think that was the issue where at first it was like, you know, we saw this coming. And then fans were like, oh, you know, how could you do this angle, whereas Daniel Brian really did have to retire? And then Daniel Brian, who's very quickly becoming the Stephen A. Smith of WWE over there, buried Sasha and just said, oh, I don't mind that she did it. I just didn't think it was very good. I think that's the appropriate take.

I think that's exactly the right take. Hot take Daniel Bryan. Yeah, he's really great. You're great at what he's doing. Two quick questions before we get out of Raw. One, the Shining Stars, surprising win over Enzo and Big Cass. Any thoughts? Well, I got to be honest with you.

When the new day first came out, I thought that gimmick would never last. I thought it'd be gone in a month. And I was like, this is the biggest disaster of all time. So since that moment, I try not to have a strong opinion about things, because I was so wrong about those guys. And I have the same feelings about the Shining Stars. But this past week, I was like, you know what? I hate you guys just enough that I kind of like to see in your faces now.

I'm going to, yeah. So I don't know. We'll see. I agree. Here's the thing. One, coming again, coming from a weekend of indie wrestling, the Shining Stars are the, I mean, they could totally be over in any other company. If you, I mean, in a smaller company, you just like push them.

you give them the push, they're good in the ring, people will accept it, they're actually really good on the mic. I think the biggest problem WWs had and why we're skeptical of teams like that is they just haven't had tag teams that are potent enough to put other teams over. And Inzo and Cass are good enough to make you care about the shining stars even if it's for a week, you know? And I think that, I don't know, I'm actually like much more entertained than I thought I would be if you just told me.

And I'm kind of looking forward to them fighting it inevitably. at clash of champions. I feel like also you just want to see something new that isn't like the Uso's. You just desperately well. We'll talk about the Uso's in just a second. Before we get there, is Seth Rollins a baby face

and how do we feel like he's doing so far? I don't know that it matters, but you've got to answer the question. In the right situation against Kevin Owens, I mean, this is as close as it was getting, Whether he likes it or not, I don't want to hear what you think. I might not let Steve answer first.

I think that he is very much an Austin anti-hero at this point. I don't think, I mean, he's going to be a face in the sense that everybody's behind, but I don't think you're going to see like Seth Rollins against the world. I think it's going to be, I can't believe I got screwed, and now I'm going to get my revenge. And I think it's going to be, for him, a really brilliant sort of storyline. because, you know, it's not that we didn't see it coming when the authority was the thing, and it all broke down. You knew at some point this sort of recompense was going to happen.

But, dude, I would give anything to be Seth Rollins right now. He's just, like, on top of the world. He doesn't even have to have the belt right now. Yeah. He's so over, man. Two guys, you don't have to give the belt to him. I know. I might be crazy.

I only watched that main event, or sorry, his raw match one time. But the vibe that I got was that he was trying really hard to keep playing heel, like on his way to the ring with a lot of the pre-match stuff. I think that if I had to do some armchair psychology, I think the, like, he very much did not want to look like he was turning baby face because he knew that would water down whatever he's, you know, like. It's coming, right? Yeah.

But he was definitely working baby face in the match. Like, there are just a few subtle things, just the way that, you know, they gave him the kind of like hope spots, like the big, like the big moves that normally you would, that you would kind of put a bit, those would be like the baby face moves in a match. and that might be the limits of sort of the wrestling match vocabulary or whatever, but it did seem like I think that he's clearly going to be positioned as a baby face, like you were saying, but they're just not going to hit us over the head with it.

Right. And I think that's for the best. But we'll have, we have more weeks to talk about, to talk about Seth Rollins. It would be very interesting to see Seth Rollins finally as a renegade who's completely on his own and nobody's doing anything for him, you know, because he's been strong enough to have that, but you had to have it built up through that year and a half of the authority and all of that business, you know. Sure. Let's talk about SmackDown, and we got to run through the card for this week's giant Smackdown pay-per-view, backlash.

But why don't we just jump straight to the pay-per-view? Because it was all pretty much a go-home show for Backlash, our first brand-split pay-per-view. You know, at first blush, this is not the most exciting, pay-per-view, WWs put on in their entire history. Yeah. But it's got a lot of good matches. It's got, I take that back. It has six matches scheduled.

Two of them are part of the tag team title tournament. And I'm not mad at any of these matches. And if they get, if each of these matches get some time, I think I'm going to be happy to watch this show. I'm not mad about the matches. I'm just not thrilled about where we are storyline-wise on SmackDown. I feel like they're very much still. figuring it out. And these guys are trying their asses off. I mean, AJ

Stiles is working his ass off right now to sell this like, I am the ultimate egomaniac. I deserve all of this. You know, it's sort of like Owens, but at the same time, it's like a little more comical and it's sort of like brashness. But I don't know, man, I just don't like, I'm not loving most of the storyline, so I'm not really thrilled about this upcoming backlash. Sorry, fans. Yeah. I'm just going to run through the matches, unless, Joel, you have any,

you have any general thoughts? No, I mean, that's, it is. It's quick. This is what's going to happen now with these pay-per-views. Oh, well, there's, it's not a lot of time to build. It's not great for them to be the first one up right after the split.

And, you know, you have such less time to prepare. So many storylines got jacked in the middle. Yeah. I'm tired of Bray Wyatt brainwashing people or trying to brainwash people and then losing. Ziegler just had a big, matching out Ziegler's well he's working the same gimmick in this where he's like I don't

always win but I always try it's like oh then maybe this is the time and that yeah that's actually his gimmick now it's like my fans love to watch me because they keep waiting for me to finally win yeah also his whole promo was like uh well if I don't win I'm maybe going to do something else like that was his whole promo at ringside the other night I was like oh this is not very strange so we got the Mizzolv Ziegler which is actually going to be I mean the history of friends working matches together is largely good, right? Yeah.

Especially in the modern era, you try to put each other over. I think that could be the low-key sort of match of the night. Yeah, I think so, too. Orton versus Bray Wyatt, which I'm actually, I would love to, I can't wait to see those two guys wrestle. I can't help but think that like this is going to be a sort of, a sort of schmazzy, lesser version of this match setting up them fighting again in a month or whatever. I'd rather see that because we haven't had a proper build for this one.

Yeah. Like I said, I'm a little over the Bray Wai. Literally now, for like four guys in a row, has come out and said, hey, you know, follow the buzzards. I'm going to take you home. You come, I know how to fix your brain. And then he gets the shit kicked out of him. And then he like picks somebody else.

And it doesn't work again. I mean, what do we got? He had Ambrose, you know, the new day, which has got completely cut off in the middle. Well, he succeeded in brainwashing Daniel Bryan briefly. Briefly. By the way, when is the Wyatt brother is just going to get Bo Dallas? Like, that seems like such a natural. won a match on Raw. This might be the big game. No doubt. Like crazy. Yeah. Made no sense.

Still wearing Social Outcast gear, by the way. Yeah. And you was like Cody Rhodes finisher, didn't he? Like that's, that was maybe the first shot. I did like whatever they were doing, like the sort of like creepy, uh, it was, it was a lot creepier Bo Dallas this time. Like, it was almost like brainwashed like I've snapped a little Bo Dallas. Here's the thing. That shows your lot of cast gear, well, the, the, the, the, the, the team logo was terrible. If you're going to push him, you got to put them in some different tights. Yeah. And, as much as I understand why they went to the to the kind of old singlet

he's put on a little weight I think that you just got to put him in the briefs and let the weight be the character you know just make him make him be just that if you want him if he's going to be a kind of scary or not scary but darker heel I mean there's nothing scarier than a guy in briefs with

like a belly and love handles who's just like all just totally proud to be that way but yeah so the one thing that that backlash has going for it as far as being the first brand pay-per-view out of the gate is that they have matches for their new tag titles and their new women's title. Right.

Right, the tournament. Yeah, yeah. This is a lot, it's a lot of titles. SmackDown should have their own, the divisions in both cases on Smackdown are probably the weaker divisions compared to Raw. I am kind of excited about a future where, like, WrestleMania is like UFC 200, where it's just like all title matches. or like number one contender matches.

Right. That all depends on execution, obviously. But who do you think? In the women's side, we have Alexa Bliss, Becky Lynch, Carmela, Naomi. Man, Naomi's been great. Natalia and Nikki Bello. They're all getting really good looks on Smackdown. Yeah.

What's your pick, guys? I am actually, I have a feeling we're going to see a Nikki Bella resurgence for a bit because I feel like you need to put some legitimacy behind that belt for a moment. I don't know that Becky Lynch is sort of ready for. It's not that she's not ready for it, but I just don't know if the storyline is ready for her to have it. Yeah. But I don't know, dude, I have started really enjoying Alexa Bliss quite a bit. She's good.

I was not really on the Bliss train in the beginnings of NXT, but I've sort of liked where she's gone since she's come up. I always thought she looked too small in NXT. But it's funny because now that she's on Raw, she looks like even smaller. Or on SmackDown, she looks even smaller. But somehow that's just kind of like part of her character now. Yeah. I'd worry if it doesn't, Becky Lynch doesn't go over, that shit might start to pass. Oh, no, she's good.

I think Becky Lynch, my vote would be for Becky Lynch, but I under, but I like the Nikki Bella argument. And I would almost put in some, put in a small bet on Natalia if I didn't feel like they'd kind of already, they'd, you know, exhausted all their storyline ideas for over the past couple of months. Yeah, I feel like her, well, I mean, I don't know, she did come out pretty nasty heel. Yeah. I mean, she would not be a bad idea for like just a state, like a stabilizing heel champion. Right. Right.

To blee. To be honest, I think it's going to depend on whether Ambrose retains or AJ wins as well, because I think whatever you see, you will see two different champions at that, the top of the head. I think you either say AJ Styles and somebody like a, like a, uh, Nikki Bella, or you'll see Ambrose keep and like out of the blue like an Alexa Bliss or a Carmela. That's interesting.

I like that logic. The other big, the other belt they're giving out is the tag team, their new tag team belt, which I guess now American Alpha has been eliminated from the tournament

and which is weird because people, wrestling, people in KFabe have recovered much more quickly than five days or however much time this is. But the Uso is,

according to Wickefab, The Uso's are taking on the hype rows to see who gets the spot against Heath Slater and Rhino in the finals. Is this just, I mean, first of all, congrats on WW to WW for finally pulling the trigger on the Uso's heel turn. It gives me faith that they've not forgotten that, you know, you can always, everybody can turn heel. Yeah. Heath Slater's family, though, needs a show. I mean, how many brothers and sisters? It's amazing.

Kids. And kids. It was amazing. It was amazing. It's the new Ravens flock. It's just an endless supply of, like, red-headed children. That's a TLC show, for sure. One special day, someone had a tin of peanut butter and a piece of chocolate fell into it,

and they decided to not throw it away and eat it. And I feel in many ways that is what happened with Heath Slater and Rhino, because that is not a combination of human beings I would ever want to put together, but it is working on like next level status. Like those two guys together, it's so good right now. It's really great. I mean, some of the best tag teams in wrestling history have been kind of oddball pairing. Yeah, for sure. And when was Rino going to start being like the politician?

Like they're going to... He's actively running for office, but I don't think he's going to win. I don't think he's going to win. But he's not going to, they're not going to mention it or kind of like... Would you like, would you prefer the Rino have more like a suit? I think it's like he's putting up signs in the ring. Yeah, legislation backstage. That's not a bad idea.

Yeah. If you don't stand for the anthem, like we need, no, I don't know. Actually, I backtrack. Let's stick to peanut butter and chocolate. Stick to sports, guys. The fake sports. So what do you think? I mean, is this, are they just setting up the heel usos to be the champs or do we think Heath Slater and Rhino are they, are they, I mean, listen, they've done a cool job

of like giving a lot of spotlight to American Alpha. I think if you asked me three days ago, would have put all of my money on American Alpha to win because of the way they've been hyped. But even just like setting aside that, let's say that they were in, they were still viable to wrestle on Sunday. The Uso heel turn and just the steady progression of Slater and Rhino,

like those three teams are all suddenly like very valid tag teams. Yeah. And you've given Heath Slater like a sort of a storyline trying to get this contract, but it's just, I don't know, as a tag team champions, the first belt you're going to give those guys, I don't know.

I don't know. It's an open field. I like it, man. I mean, I've always liked the idea of the kind of random tag teams, especially if they were just like, you know, you get to be the first person to hold this belt. Maybe they could do a little bit more old school and go like you win this tournament. You get the belt and $100,000 or something. And then you see, you know, whoever, like the Miz is like, maybe I'll just find a partner and wrestle twice that night.

Well, Dusty Rhodes tag team challenge. You had Finn Dollar and Smojo. Exactly. It was like a weird pairing, but it worked out really well. They won the tournament. Yeah, and you can use that to push storylines in other directions. Dude, I would love it if Heath Slater and Rhino went. I don't think that's the way it's going to go, but I would love it.

Why not? They're going to be on TV regardless. I mean, Heath Slater is the star of Smackdown at this point. And then last thing, Dean Ambrose versus AJ Stiles for the title, for the world title, the most important belt in professional wrestling history. Do you think AJ is going to get it? Is AJ going to go from indie wrestling to King of the Mountain in a calendar year? This is a tough question.

The first time you give it to AJ, I just don't think it's going to be at backlash. I just don't think. And, I mean, as we've seen, WWE, they're not giving up on Roman Raines. Then they're not giving up on D.N. Ambrose. Well, they have no reason to give up on Ambrose. I think that this isn't a Steve jump in if you have, if you want, have a. answer. I mean give up, put it just not done with this round.

Given the shape of the Smackdown roster, this is probably the first in a series between these two guys. Yeah. So in some sense, it doesn't particularly matter who wins. My feeling is it's going to be hard to carry these matches on if AJ loses. But that's only in the sense that he just beat Sina. He's on this sort of like high pinnacle right now of being the guy backstage. So if he loses the Ambrose,

I don't know that you're that interested in watching him climb up again and like get ready to fight Ambrose. Now, if it's like a DQ or somebody gets involved or there's some sort of, you know, dirty finish, then maybe it's still an interesting sort of tack. But I sort of agree with you. I don't know that you put a belt on AJ at backlash so quickly unless, unless you're like, hey, new show, new thing, like let's just shake everything up, new champion and let's start over fresh from there. You know, Ambrose has had his time. I don't, look, I want to be a Dean Ambrose fan.

Hear me out for years. I have Ambrose merch. I thought he was one of the best parts of the shield. And then something changed. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's just what they're writing for him. But he's almost a buffoon. Like he's not even the least bit frightening to me.

He got kicked in the balls and that was enough to like put him down for the end of Smackdown. Yeah, it's just like I don't know. He's lost his mystique to me. And I don't know where you go with. that from this point on. Yeah, that's all, it's always been the, the, the, the potential problem with Ambrose. Like, the, the, the, the distance between stone, from his Stone Cold Steve Austin gear and his, you know, Santino Morella gear is weirdly close.

Yeah. Like, there's just those two things are not, like, you don't see that a lot in, that sort of crossover. And I guess that says something about his range. Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I really, I enjoyed his promo on Tuesday night. I thought, you know, there was, times it was a little bit hokey and I and I think that in some sense AJ is not the best uh at least at the beginning of the feud AJ is not the best for him to play off of um because AJ is awesome

but has a little bit of that you know T&A cornball in his promos too you know and um but it works for AJ styles for some weird reason it does it doesn't work for Ambrose right now it feels like ambrose is performing you know and there's and it's it's uh yeah it's not it's not it doesn't it just doesn't always click and and I think that you know, this is a new thing for him. And I'm not just defending him mindlessly, but I think I'm really excited to see this match on Sunday because I feel like both of them still have so much to prove

despite how much they've accomplished. It's funny that like the size of Ambrose, that doesn't bother me anymore. Even when you saw Raines come in against Kevin Owens and you're like, oh my God, rates is so big. Whereas even with Ambrose, it's like the, and it sounds so nitpicky, the chewing gum and the weird walk.

You've got the belt now. Like, act like a champion, but it's like care. Care. Be like, I don't care. I'm crazy. I throw coffee. They lost me when they were at the Mohegan and he had the giant foam hat on and was like drinking a beer and had poker chips he was throwing out.

I was like, okay. I mean, sure. You know, Stone Cold got a little cheesy there towards the end. He did some things he's not proud of. The Rock, I'm sure, has done things he's not proud of. They all have. But five, six years in. when it's gotten so hard to, like, pop anymore.

This is, like, way too early for foam hats and poker chips. Yeah. Yeah. It's like Dean Ambrose is, I think the tension is that we want Dean Ambrose to be the indie wrestler that he started off as. Be a lunatic. Well, that's what I mean. To be a serious.

Like a real lunatic. To be our idea of a crazy person. Right. And a lot of that is, you know, putting your body through hell, which he does sometimes in matches, but especially, you know, that's what he was sadly known for before we got, came up to WWE. I think the tension is that what he's doing is he's playing an eight-year-old kids version of a crazy person. Yeah.

Where you wear funny hats and knock things over. Yeah. You know, and that's not. And those two things, ideas can coexist, I guess, but they haven't, they still haven't found the exact right gear. Stone Cold would drive an ambulance through the back thing, pull it up to the ring. Dean Ambrose would drive an ice cream truck. To be fair, Stone Gold drove a milk truck, I think, at one point, right? Beer truck for sure.

There was a number of beer trucks. Basically anything that they could be driven up the aisle was driven by Stoneclose Steve Austin. But yeah, you know, Ambrose is definitely, the ice cream truck is always in play. But having said that, I know I'm on the minority opinion there because he still pops like crazy. Oh, yeah. People still love some Ambrose. I mean, A.J. and Ambrose might be the two most popular people that will have fighting, you know, over the, and for the rest of the year. They both just get such big reactions.

A lot of that, I guess, depends. on how the crowd reacts to Seth Rollins as he continues on this journey. Anyway, Seth Rollins may or may not be a baby face, but you two are. Thank you for stopping by to the biggest baby faces in the podcast business. Everybody listening to this, your baby faces in my heart too. Enjoy backlash this weekend. Enjoy the real main event watching CM Punk get his face punched in. and you know thanks for listening we'll see you back here next week humanoid