The Press Box - Ep. 193: 'The Masked Man Show' With Steve Kazee

Episode Date: October 12, 2016

David Shoemaker and Steve Kazee discuss the return of Goldberg, a crazy Paige rumor (10:40), and the upcoming 'Survivor Series' matchups (14:25). Then, they consider possible high spots for 'Hell in a Cell' (18:30) and review 'No Mercy' (34:20). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. Today's episode of Channel 33 is brought to you by Seat Geek, the presenting sponsor for my podcast, as well as the only fan-friendly app for buying and selling tickets for sports and music. With just two taps on your phone, you can instantly buy Seekkeek tickets to an event, and you can enter that event just using your phone. No paper tickets. Drop your old ticket app. Use one that's built for 2016.

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And reruns on HBO Now, HBO Go, and, HBO on demand. And now without further ado, here is the masked man, David. Shoemaker. Welcome to the Mask Man show. It's a dreary day in Southern California. So dreary. Anyway, Steve Kazee is here, which makes my day. I mean, it's like the sun came out the moment I saw you. How are you doing, man? Good, good, man. How are you? Good. We were just, before we started recording, lamenting the overabundance of wrestling content, which is a really weird thing to complain about, but I feel like that's just the norm now. I mean, they end up talking about that on every episode of the show.

Yeah, it's so overexposed. So over exposed. You can't even get excited about a thing. No. They're just like, like, during, like you're watching, on Sunday, we had a huge main event that they put on at 5 o'clock, West Coast time, 8 o'clock, so we could get it, so we could all watch it before the debate. And it's like, before it was even overall, I mean, it was just like, there's like

Goldberg stuff popping up on Twitter. Anyway, we'll get to all that later. uh goldberg and brock lesner i feel like is that is like the news of the week that they're actually going through with this yeah it's like gonna happen yeah uh after months and months of speculation well that's really weird because like i've gone on the record like to try to make it really clear to everybody that just to like to lower expectations that like the the 2k the video game doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the w w you product right like when sting was in the video game everybody was like oh well he signed sealed and delivered but they didn't start talking i mean

I mean, that came as a result of the video game, sure. I mean, that was part of it. But yeah, it seems like WW is 100% all in on promoting the video game by having this match at Survivor series. It seems like a full promo match for a video game. I think Meltzer, somebody was on the record saying that's exactly what it was. Which is terrified. There's no question. Yeah.

It's very strange that you would have, I mean, I don't want to, like, dog at it. It's going to be a really interesting match that we're all going to, like, be there watching. I mean, we're all going to make go out of our way to be watching that live. for sure. But yeah, I mean, it's, but it's like, like, this was a match that happened to WrestleMania, was it 20? WrestleMania 20. And it was widely considered just a joke until like, terrible match.

Two weeks ago when they started now, you know, hyping this new thing. Well, at that time, wasn't it, they were both leaving the company. Yes, it was the end of Goldberg's short-term deal and Lesnar was quitting to go pursue. Play football. Yeah, or try to play football. He made the Viking squad, didn't he? I can't remember. Yeah, there was a lot.

That's actually a really weird story. He came close to making it with very little practice. Also, like, had wrecked his moped or something like that and not quite recovered from it, which was not really part of the narrative at the time. It's hard to believe how long ago that has been now. Yeah. And he seemed sort of, like, I think there was general consensus that he could have made a team. He just, like, you know, he really wanted to make the main roster of the Vikings.

Right. And wasn't really into, like, playing for somebody else or being on the practice squad or, like, whatever. So anyway, all that we're talking about, 20, WrestleMania 20, which gives you some indication of like how long ago these guys were in their physical

primes. Well, Stone Cold was the like special referee. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I mean, it's just so strange. Goldberg, who was on the show, is it, I really, I love Goldberg

and I'm sort of have his current public persona is one of my guilty pleasures in wrestling because he just doesn't really care a lot of though. Yeah, it seems like he's sort of given up the will to care. But he's, but he's,

I mean, We know he's in shape. He does jujitsu all the time and he looks good. It looks good. But there's a big difference between I'm in shape and I'm in like ring. You know, like obviously there's ring rust, but there's also the bodybuilder workout that you have, that he would have to do to get back into the Goldberg that we remember. I just feel like it's going to like look like two really stiff dudes just kind of awkwardly tossing each other around the ring and lots of, you know,

lockups and grappling. and I can't imagine it's going to be any good. I mean, WrestleMania 20 was such a dud. It was such a dud. I will say this. I mean, if the template here is Brock Lesnar, who we know can be really good against a guy who's, you know, maybe a decade past his prime who has a, you know,

late life fascination with MMA, then, I mean, like, he did, he'd have two good matches with The Undertaker. Yeah. So two, right? Am I, like losing my mind? Was it just one? Anyway Yeah

My brain is totally My brain is toast this morning But anyway It's the lack of sunlight We've seen him We've seen him in this sort of match It's possible that it's going to be really good And really interesting

But yeah Generally when two When guys try to go to MMA And the wrestling ring It ends up looking even faker than if they hadn't Yeah Anyway I mean Listen I'm excited

I'm just It's just so strange That this is the I mean that this is what they're hyping I'm not thrilled I'm not thrilled at the sort of like promotional aspect of it. I mean, I get that it's all one giant promotion anyway. Yeah. But it seems weird to me. It's also, I had the same feeling with that Ms. Dolph Ziegler,

Kentucky Fried Chicken thing. Like, just, I just don't love it. I don't know. It's not that I'm like, oh, so, else. But there's just a part of me that's like, all right, well, where do we draw a line? Yeah. Like, at what point, you know, do we have a match because who drinks Pepsi and who drinks Coke? Yes. You know, like, that's going to be the big headlining. Yeah. It's very, it's true. It's just strange to see, I mean, for the KFC thing, like, I don't get too worked up about that stuff. But yeah, I mean, when these two guys are in a feud that is very real-life-based to just, like, make the, it's just weird.

It was very strange. Anyway, Goldberg, Lesner. It'll be official next week, I guess. Well, we'll see. I mean, maybe he shows up and just says, like, go fuck yourself. That would be really great. You know? I just don't, I guess I'm just, like, I'm not.

at the at the booking i because we're because like i said we're i'm very into it yeah i want to see it but but it we're we're sort of at the spot i think i mentioned this last week where goldberg is just going to be i mean he's going to for the rest of his time in wb he probably is going to be in these weird little one-off uh like spotlight matches that don't really have anything to do with wb continuity or anything like that yeah it's he's just like he's just doing special events or special you know i mean i think it's going to be interesting to see what the reaction is because what, WrestleMania 20 was what,

12 years ago? Yeah, plus, yeah. And at that point, he was sort of not the star he had once been anyway. Well, I mean, that was one of the first real, real massive instances

of the fans hijacking the match. Now, I mean, now WWE is, you know, accustomed to it and works around it and that sort of, you know, is prepared for those sorts of moments. Yeah. But, you know, a lot of, I don't want to get too deep into,

like, meta-criticism here. I think a lot of the fan, a lot of the, A lot of the rationale behind fans, like, really, like, over-involving themselves, like the chance that sort of takeover shows and stuff is wanting to be a part of those chance, right? Exactly. So, I mean, for better or for worse, I think it's a great thing in a lot of ways to be part of that moment. Yeah.

I wonder if fans are going to ironically boo just anyway, so they can be just like WrestleMania 20. Yeah. I just feel like the WrestleMania, like, we weren't there at 20, and now we want to be a part of it. This match getting booed out of the arena here. I don't think, I think that regardless, they have a really short leash. There is Survivor Series. In Boston? San Antonio?

Oh, no, no. Or wait, no. They're advertising for something in San Antonio. I think I thought it was Survivor Series. Anyway, I'll look it up. I think you're right, actually. But yeah, it's, I don't know. I just think they have to be really,

they're just going to have to be really careful. I mean, the way they book that, and I'm sure they will be, whatever. But yeah, it's, anyway, it's in Toronto. Sorry, we were both running out of town. Toronto, Ontario. Maybe I can just go.

I haven't been to Toronto since I was like 12. I mean, it'd be one to see for sure. Let me see if Simmons will open up the travel fund. Yeah, come on, Bill. Anyway, I don't know what else there was to say about that, except like we're, like, it just feels so weird. I mean, it's like the Sting Undertaker match there. I mean, that everybody keeps trying to, like, fantasy book.

It's like, there's the limit to how excited I can get to watch a 50-year-old dude get in the ring for the first time in years. And get German suplexed around the ring for, know, five or six times. Here's the weird thing to me is that when you have a guy like Lesnar who is a draw and is the thing, he is the monster that you bring out of the cage whenever you want, you already have a hard enough time giving a storyline to make us all care to watch a match. So now, like, what is the promo going to be?

Oh, we fought at WrestleMania 20, let's settle some business or, like, if they're not going to hype it up and it's just going to be like, oh, let's just put these two guys together, than I start to wonder what the point is. Well, I mean, Goldberg had actually a very well-constructed take when he was on SportsCenter or on ESPN, when he basically said, you know, I have a win over Lesnar that, you know, he probably doesn't think that I deserve. Right. And that's, the fact that they're kind of going into the meta, like the fakeness of wrestling,

which is what you sort of have to do on those ESPN spots. But like, that part is interesting to me. But what I said last week, I mean, my problem with it is that, Like if Paul Heyman, if Paul Heyman were really shooting on Bill Goldberg, he would destroy him in one second. Like there's not. Like there wouldn't even be a moment that Bill Goldberg could breathe from that because he would demolish him. Yeah. So anyway, we got to move on.

I'm sure there'll be much more talk about this in weeks to come. The big news, just as I woke up this morning, we're recording this on Wednesday, relatively early in Los Angeles. I woke up to Sam Donsky, who's on the show a bunch of. had sent me a message from crazy days and nights.net, which is one of the great Hollywood celebrity gossip sites. Steve, I'm sure you're on this all the time, looking for like mentions of yourself and your friends. But yeah, I'm just going to read parts of this to you. This is all news to me, by the way. Yeah, this is the first time Steve's hearing this. Okay, this is all a quote. One of my pieces of advice that celebrities would be good to heed is to

pay your dealer. Bad things can happen when you don't. It doesn't matter who you are. Eventually you're going to have to pay. Oh, sure. If you're a foreign-born A-minus list celebrity in her roped corner of the entertainment world, you can sleep with your dealer for a while in order not to pay, but that only lasts for a short time. Eventually, they find someone else who can't pay and they want to trade, and wants to trade, and you were replaced. The next thing you know, you agree to do a little courier run using your status and you promised yourself you'll do it just one time. That then one time becomes two or three because your habit keeps growing, then the unthinkable. You lose your status, and you can't make the run.

runs, but still have your habit. One drug dealer cuts you off, so you move to the next and the next. At this point, you owe several dealers, but haven't told your celebrity boyfriend. When they come calling, he's caught in the crossfire. You go into hiding. The thing is, you can't go into hiding for long because your addiction is so bad. My guess is, well, this is just dark. My guess is you'll end up dead, either of an overdose or from crossing the wrong people.

Now, immediately everybody said this is, this blind item is about page. as we know just got her second drugs related suspension from WWE did this week she came out her dad came out they're all the seven the press where they're saying oh it's just riddling or it's or no it's pain killers from her neck injury that she has a doctor's note for WWE made a statement of the New York Post saying no this is she got pinged for illegal drugs but this is just like that is a crazy and crazily specific blind item well it's been I mean look I follow page on Instagram, I have seen her posts of late. There's clearly some stuff going on. I mean,

she's literally like promoting Alberto Del Rio's Mexican restaurant that he's opening up. And it just, the whole thing seems really weird. And that, that relationship, I mean, I'm not, I hate to, because I don't know anything about it, but this is pure speculation, but it just seems really, there's some unhealthy things happening. You do not go from the top of it. industry. Like, she was so huge two years ago. She's my favorite wrestler, yeah. Something just fell off.

And it has to be, I think we talked about this before on a podcast. When we're hearing things like that, you imagine what the reality is. Because when you're, even if it's one, five percent of that. When you and I are getting that kind of a whiff of smoke, the fire itself must be so intense. I mean, again, this is a blind item that's totally, it's like, might be totally made up, But it, but it's, uh, these things are, are Juliet Litman of the ringer.com will tell you that like, you know, believe these, these blind items more often than not. Yeah. Even when you're just, even when they're fake.

Yeah. There's some ring of, there's some truth to them. Um, but man, man. I mean, drug doing, doing like, like basically drug mueling if you're a wrestler is actually, you know, I, I could see how that'd be a lucrative and interesting, uh, sideline, you know? I mean, it's, but what a bad situation. It's a really bad situation. It's true. Probably not true. It's all presumably fake if it's a blind item. Anyway, I don't want to, I don't, that ended with such a dark note.

Let's, let's move on to the next subject. We talked a little bit about Survivor Series, and it's worth, it's worth noting that they've already, on Tuesday night, they started setting up the rest of the Survivor Series card. Shane and Daniel Bryan challenged Raw to like a five-on-five men match where it's just general five-on-five dudes versus five dudes. But then it's also the five best women on each show in a Survivor Series match and the five best tag teams on each show.

I'm one of those great 10 versus 10 tag team showdowns. All of that, I'm 100% behind. Yeah. I mean, I don't like the best women thing. It feels like there should be a women's title match or two at Survivor Series. But it's cool that they're co-branding the show. It's a little bit soon for it to feel like that big of a deal.

But, you know, as it breaks through the dark clouds of the monotony of paperviews and Raws and, you know, there's a championship match every time you turn around. Yeah. That part of it is kind of interesting. Or something like that. Right. I bring this up because Raw this week was, you know, all in on promoting Hell and a Cell, which is their next pay-per-view.

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because they can't make enough noise to break through, right? At Hellenicel this year, we have three announced HellenSL matches, which is, okay, I mean, I guess there's a certain argument that like, why not just do every match on the car? I was going to sell because that's what the name of the pay-per-view is. Yeah, exactly. Like, just make it a whole big cage match, the whole thing.

I would always rather, I've always thought I would rather have, like, you know, the TLC pay-per-view just be like everything goes in every match. Right. Because it just seems so weird to, like, you know. Have one match that's just tables, ladders? Well, you know, have we ever seen a battle royal inside of a cage? I don't know how you would toss the people out. That's a good point. They do have those old WWE cages that didn't have a top.

Yeah. I mean, a lot of them don't have tops, I guess, but the big blue one that was like the, the Hulk Hogan one, the Hulk Hogan one was like pretty short too. Yeah. The one that Snooka jumped off of in his famous moment was like, you know, eight and a half feet tall. Yeah, it wasn't too big. I'm just kidding. But it was, yeah, it was, I mean, certainly you could have to do something.

I'm just trying to think of, like, what other matches you could throw in there and just have it be interesting because, I mean, look, I'm super excited for Charlotte, Sasha in a cage. Like, I'll see that. I am very, very excited because I know how good they're, I mean, but at the same, I'm going to be watching that like, like I was watching Undertaker Shane this year at WrestleMania just in like my, I'm going to be so scared that someone's going to get hurt the whole time. Yeah. This is what wrestling has become. It's like it's either too silly for me. You know Charlotte's back flipping off the top of the cage.

Oh my gosh. You know that's going to happen. I was watching, just talking about how silly it's become. I was watching the, we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about, we're going to talk. about No Mercy at the end, but I was watching it with an eight-year-old kid. He had never seen wrestling before, was not interested in watching wrestling, but he was there. I was just like turned it on. Like I said, never watched it, never been interested in it, turned on the main event, the 5 o'clock main event and No Mercy. It took him legitimately 30 seconds to be the

biggest John Cena fan. I'm serious. It's impossible. That guy is just... It just looks like a superhero. Yeah, he's just really great. The main event, the 5 o'clock main event, or the 8 o'clock main event, also known as not a main event. Oh, okay, we have to wait for this. I'm sorry I brought it up because we're getting into the, we're getting the semantics of the situation. But what do you think? So we're excited about Charlotte Sasha. I'm actually, I have to say, I have been a little tuned out, which I sort of mentioned to you, because I just feel like there's so much.

It's hard to know what to pay attention to. With everything that's happening, TNA Impact and Lucha Underground and all the other indie stuff, like I just, my brain, There's so much wrestling right now, which is not, look, it's a great problem to have. But I feel a little tuned out because I feel like this brand split has hurt in the sense that it's not allowing me to care enough about either product. However, having said that, I'm much more in tune with what's happening on Raw these days because I just sort of enjoy those storylines a little better. I like the performers a little better. So I'm actually excited for Hellness-L because I think there's going to be some great matches. Yeah, I mean, I think that the women's match has the potential to be just spectacular.

The U.S. title match. Yeah, the Rusev-Rain stuff is like being, I've been enjoyed. I, you know, a lot of people were like talking shit about this few at the beginning. And just, I mean, for good reason, some, I know this is an unpopular opinion, but maybe it's bearing out that I'm a little bit right. But like, if you don't have, for lack of something more important to do, with a wrestler. If someone seems to sort of be treading water, just put them in a two-month feud with somebody or a three-month feud or a four-month feud and just let it keep going.

Because eventually you can find your way through to it feeling important. We saw it with Ziegler-Miz, we saw it with Cizzerro and Seamus, sort of. I mean, we all cared by the end and now I'm interested in this tag team situation that they're in. And certainly, like, Rusef Raines, I care way more now than I did a month and a half ago. With the wedding cake and all that? Yeah. I definitely am far more. invested now. And, you know, we've seen that they're, I mean, they're developing, like, they're developing a pretty good chemistry.

Yeah. You know? Let's see. And then the main event, we have Rollins versus Kevin Owens. Yeah. Also in a hell of a cell. Well, that could be, that could be just epic. Yeah.

I feel like there's potential to have, like, three really classically great matches. Yeah. If everything lands the right way. What? Yeah. No, and that's not no pun intended, I assume. No, I think the expectation, it's okay to have a very high expectation with these three particular matches.

It's people who are matched up really well together. We've seen what some of them can do because they've wrestled each other before. And there feels like the stakes feel high. Yeah. It feels like a real sort of stakes, you know? Here's a problem with the triple hell and a cell from my point of view. And this is from sort of a double hell. VWE logic, like taking

WWE logic into account is that when you have three hellness out matches, like they're really careful about not repeating big spots, but they're also like trying to plan the whole matches around these big spots. Right. So by the, I bet by the third one, by the time that Rolins-Owens rolls around, we're going to be like,

oh, well, no one's gone on the roof yet so we know they're going on the roof. Like you'll, by like process of elimination, you'll be able to figure out what their, like, what the spot they have waiting is. Yeah. Also, I mean, the sort of like, This is maybe neither good or bad, depending on your point of view. But, like, when there's three matches, we know that Rollins and Owens and we know that the women will both go, like, just all out.

Like, they're going to be trying to, like, rewrite the history books. For sure. And there's no reason to think that Rollins and Raines won't feel that, I mean, sorry, that Raines and Reins won't feel the pressure and try to step it up too. I'm worried when you're, like, playing one-upsmanship, when you're trying to book a spot that the other two matches won't. book, there's the potential that we're going to see some like fully type stuff in this match or Shane McMahon type stuff. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, I do feel like we're going to see something like Charlotte, because she gives zero

fucks, which I love about her. She will just jump off anything. She'll do backflips off of anything. She just doesn't care. Did you see this picture of Charlotte as a little kid that someone posted on the internet? No. Well, you haven't been paying attention. I'll take a look.

Yeah. I'll see if I can pull it up. There's a really great photo of Rick, Charlotte, when she looks to be about like two or three years old and Rick Flair are doing like the, you know, his morning. squats or whatever it's uh it's it's it's pretty cute i love her man she's so good right now oh come i'm showing in the picture right now uh it's uh it it is she is so good right now that i saw i don't know where i saw it but somebody said she's already like one of the greatest women wrestlers of all time and i can't really argue with that like she's just really no i mean there's you know

you'd have to go back to like just word of mouth and grainy tapes from like the 50s or 60s to really I mean, I'm struggling to think of, I'm sure there's some, like, there are definitely some Japanese performers that somebody would put in this conversation. Yeah. But yeah, I mean. When she grabbed the mic from Roussev the other night, I was like, oh, she's just really good. Like, she can be that mean, awful, nasty queen that sort of like the malefica, the, you know. I totally agree. And when she grabbed the mic from Rusef, there was that, I mean, you know, there's very few women in the world that could, you know, you know, there's very few women in the world that could, you know,

grab the mic from Rousseff and have you think that just like, yeah, I'd be interested and see that match. Right? I'd watch that match. I'm still, I'm like for intergender wrestling. I need that to happen in WWE. It's time to come out of the shadows. Yeah.

I mean, I really like the intergender, well, not intergender, the mixed tag match they had on Raw. Yeah. I thought it's definitely as far as like trying to kind of like mix up the what you're seeing on Raw from what you're seeing on the pay-per-views and making use of like a smaller roster in the best possible way. It was a nice, different look. It looks so, I mean, it's still, on Lucha Underground, you don't even bat an eye.

You literally don't bat an eye when a girl like. You just got to establish. I mean, it's, it would be so hard for W.A.B. to do that. My only, my biggest problem with the, with the mixed tag on Monday night was that there was one point, there's probably more than one, but one that I'm thinking of where, um, where, like, one of the dudes was in just total control, just like, just hit a finisher on his opponent. And then they both tagged in the women, you know, really. whatever, then the women came in. It was just like, like it's, you know, like it just seems. I feel like because it's so corporate, they're small stepping it, you know, like, let's start

doing like mixed tag. Then you'll have one or two spots where people can. Yeah, but China was the exception to the rule. I think it's better. I think we're better off if we, I mean, in my opinion, I'd say you keep it separate, but there's no reason why, why Charlotte or hell, I mean, Sasha, anybody else can't just, like, occasionally hit a finisher on a dude in a schmars. just to, you know, just to prove a point.

Yeah. But anyway, to wrap up talking about Helen Assal, are there, do you think, are there any spots, are there any big spots left for Hell on a Selle? Like, Shane jumped off the cage about two feet in front of you at WrestleMania. At WrestleMania, yeah. But, and I, and I was mortified. Like, it was, it's a scary moment. But at the same time, it didn't really.

have, it wasn't like, it felt like it was so, we were so sure it was happening for like, it felt pretty sure for the whole match and then like the 30 seconds to a minute before it happened. Like we could tell where they were going, right? Yeah. So I've always felt like the next big, you know, because it's like sort of like in like X games, you know, everybody's always trying for the next big trick. Who can do the first 900 or whatever. I feel like there's an opportunity to do like a power bomb off of the top of a cage. like through an announced table. Oh, like a, like a Bubba Ray Dudley style, like,

like on May Young, I'm protecting you the whole way down. You're protecting you the whole way down, but you go through the table together. I mean, I think it can be done. It's like two people falling off, falling from that height together just opens up for so many. Even, I mean, oh, it's like, you imagine, though,

let's talk about a Seth Rollins, Kevin Owens on top of the cage. Even, how about this, like an old Foley, through the top of the cage onto the ring, but like a pop-up power bomb. Oh, yeah. I think that there,

I think that, I definitely think that the, breaking the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

the, the, the, slightly undermined territory. Like, they could do some more work there. I think that, that just,

I mean, that, it just opens up so many problems, right? So many problems. Yeah, man. I mean,

I don't know what Kevin Owens, I didn't, I haven't thought about this deeply till I'm saying it now. I don't know what Kevin Owen's full range of possibilities in a hell on us LR? I think that's what's so amazing about. That's why I'm so excited to see because I feel like he has the gusto to go for whatever.

Like I don't think he's the kind of guy that goes like, eh, let's don't try that. I've seen him do some really crazy stuff live when he was in Ring of Honor and not in the shape that he's in now. So, but he does have two bad knees and he's, you know, I mean, I'm sure he's in, they're doing a lot better than they once were too. But, uh, but, uh, but, you know, it does, it does, there's a lot of questions. Yeah, we'll see, man. And also, by the way, let's talk about this.

Still jumping off the top of a fucking cage is incredible to see. So like, if it literally, if every one of those people in that match jump off the top of the cage, I'm going to be fine. I think that, yeah, no, I agree. I feel like we're going to see Rollins do something really spectacular. I would agree with that. I think, I can imagine a sort of like monkey barzing to the middle of the ring and then somehow like hanging and doing a Phoenix splash from a, like there's, we're going to see. some cool stuff. But it is sort of just, it's just nuts that like, they're just like, yep, we got three.

And that's, like we said, it's part of it's just the noise because it's just, there's so much stuff. Before you're watching a main event match and they're already hyping up something like a bigger main event that's going to be in two weeks. I actually think that we're going to see a pretty bloody evening as well. Ooh. I know they've been sort of, we were at the NXT where they kept stopping to like clean Joe up, the Finn Ballard Joe match. and he got busted open and it was just like ruin the match.

Kept trying to like stop the bleeding. It was the worst thing. And I think they maybe saw from that like, okay, if it's incidental contact, let's let it keep going. Let's don't intentionally bust people open. But I think you're going to see some blood. We saw Kofi got busted open in that raw match a couple weeks ago and just, I mean, it was just messy.

Yeah. And they, he was involved after the, after he started bleeding. And certainly the ref wasn't running in, but it was more of a sort of like shmazzy. he's running in and then getting tossed out. And at the end, after the finish, yeah, Xavier came in and, like,

he was the one that put the towel on his head. So, yeah, I mean, that certainly felt a little bit less formal than the, let's put, let's pause the match and get the referee. I think that's part of it too, is like,

they also, like, I think by doing three matches in a, in a cell, they are pushing that this is going to be, like, you know, brutal. Like, we want this to be a brutal evening.

Otherwise, why are you doing three matches in a cage? Like, what's the point? It's, man. I mean, it's, the place that they put themselves in, trying to one-up themselves, I don't think it's a bad, I don't think it's bad for creativity. It's too much, I think, for the average fan to digest.

Yeah. But I've always said, just throw everything at the wall and then figure out how to be better next week. Like, that's a great creative process. It also depends on the cage we get, too, because that, you know, especially for Rawl now, the announce table is away from the ring. Maybe it's a bigger cage. Maybe it's a higher cage. Like, I don't know.

Oh, yeah. With the floor around the cage, with the floor around the ring inside the cage, you could do a battle royal. Although that would be just really awkward with everybody standing there. I'm able to get. After you get eliminated? But, uh, but yes. I mean, but I guess my point is that it's just like this, this hell in a cell is sort of like WW in a microcosm right now.

We're just, it's, we're putting three hell in a cell matches, which could be great, which I'm excited for. I'm more excited for that show than otherwise. But they just have to keep one-upping themselves to make it to make anything feel like it matters. It has been exhausting to keep up with every other week having a pay-per-view and just like... And on every off week there was a title match on one of the two shows. And like a legitimate like, you know, we're going to put AJ and Dean back together and just see what happens. And maybe this will affect the pay.

I mean, even if it doesn't, you know, everything feels really vital right now, which is good. But yeah, I mean, they're announcing main events for, I mean, championship matches for next week. Like, it's crazy. Yeah. And it must be exhausting. I think you run the risk a little bit of what boxing runs into, which is when you have 18 different champions of 16 different divisions. And as much as I love the cruiserweight classic,

like, can we just, let's just, I'd rather cut an hour off of Raw and not have any cruiserweight matches. I mean, I'm surprised that that's sort of what we're, that's the shape of Raw right now. If you look at Raw without the cruiserweight stuff, it's not just the first hour, which would make it much easier to skip that first hour. and that's why they can't do it.

They can't do it. But like, yeah, I mean, I've enjoyed the cruiserweight stuff a little bit, but yeah, if you just fast-forwarded through that, you probably wouldn't have any trouble keeping up with wrestling or listening to this podcast. You know, it's totally fine. Yeah. All right.

Enough talk about a pay-per-view that hasn't happened yet. Let's talk about one that just did. Do we have to? Well, you didn't enjoy No Mercy? I did not enjoy No Mercy. I talked about it a little bit, a minute ago. Eight-year-olds love John Cena. This is

not, should not come to surprise to anyone, but to watch it firsthand was just like, you know, it's like doing a second grade science experiment where you put the two things in the beaker and you're just like, holy shit, they're exploding. Like, yeah, that was the point. Totally. But yeah, I mean, it was, first of all,

let me just say this. I love the main event, we don't have to call out the main event, but I love the title match opening the show. I have not I've not been that awake and alert and excited for a pay-per-view title match in like five years. I mean, I guess that's one way of looking at it. I wasn't exhausted by the time it finally rolled around. And it's not like, I mean, there's definitely been some pay-per-views that I was hyped for,

you know, like go to the bar and watch with other marks and whatever and just like we're high-fiving. But like still, by hour three, I'm full of beer and food and just sort of like, I know I'm going to have to watch all this again tomorrow. Hour four if you watch the podcast. Pre-show. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, when that came on, I was just, I was busy doing stuff.

I looked at my clock. It's two-till, put on the WW network, and I'm like, wow, it's happening right now. And I haven't missed anything. I don't have to feel bad. And it was a really good match. Now, I made an unnecessary prediction last week that that the triple threat was going to be a match to the year candidate. Just because it just felt, it just felt like it was, like it needed to be.

That's a bold statement. Yeah, well, I mean, AJ is always, I mean, AJ styles has matched the year candidates. I mean, candidate matches just like falling out of his pockets. He's got more matches of the year candidates this year than bad tattoos. But yeah, it wasn't that for sure. But it was clear that it, that they, that I know this, I didn't even have to bring that up.

And I just begging for your forgiveness. But it was clear that they needed something. They needed it to be more than just. a regular forgettable triple threat match Yeah And putting it on

first I thought accomplished that It also You know The debate had more to do with it than anything else

Yeah I enjoyed the match I just think that I just think that they A single chair shot to the back has so little

legitimacy in the world of pro wrestling Yeah that it's just an insane way to book out the ending of a match Yeah

especially because we We should have mentioned this in the last segment by differentiating the Hell and the Sle matches. Rusef and Raines are just going to hate each other with chairs for 45 minutes. I mean, that's what that inside a cage. That's probably what that match is going to be.

They're probably going to try to bloody each other or all that kind of stuff. So the triple threat on Sunday was really good, but like when you get in the ring and just smack a guy on the back, like you expect, well, that's the setup for a bigger move or that's, you know, something worse is about to have.

It was just such a weird finish, I guess. It was a really weird finish. Look, I've been on this train for months now and I'm still on it. Like, I don't know what the fuck we're doing with Dean Ambrose. I just really don't get it. He felt superfluous to that match. He didn't feel like, I don't know why he was in that match. I feel like it's time for him to maybe go back to the midcard somewhere.

It's tough. I don't disagree, but. Because I much rather would have just watched another Cina Stiles match in that spot. Like I, because I felt like I, I felt like that's what I was watching anyway. I did not feel like a triple threat to me. It didn't feel, it didn't feel cohesive enough. I don't know why. I just, it's like I'm just not into the Ambrose styles.

It's just not working for me. Ambrose and A.J. Stiles. Is that here you're talking about? Ambrose style. No, Ambrose and styles. Yeah, no, I mean it's. Or Ambrose's style. Yeah.

I agree. I'm trying to think, I mean, next week, next time you come on the show, we should have like fantasy booking Dean Ambrose corner because like there must be an answer to this, right? When he got the belt, when they launched Smackdown, he was, it was really, he was important to the show. He made it feel legitimate. When he's, when he's firing on all cylinders, there's no one else that gets, that gets the reaction that he does. What we talked about on one of the past episodes is that when he is a lunatic, like a real lunatic, like you're sort of worried about him and what's going to happen to someone wrestling him. Yeah.

You know, the sort of like grabbing the hands and making the weird faces, that's the Dean Ambrose. That's the sweet spot Ambrose. The like goofy, like nonchalant. Yeah. Like the Ambrose we saw last night. Oh, don't even get me started on that fucking match. But, you know, it's like that kind of thing.

Yeah. It just doesn't work for me. He doesn't seem like a legitimate contender. He didn't feel like a legitimate title holder. You know, And it's like he got to that place by doing one thing. And then immediately when they gave him the belt, it's like, all right, now let's make you a fucking idiot.

Yeah. And see how that works out for everybody. I hate to say it. I don't totally disagree. I mean, I think that you got to keep him if he's not going to be in the main event, you got to keep him significant, but you also just got to keep him sort of a heel. I mean, not. And a true heel.

Yeah. Like, because, look, AJ Styles can be an idiot. It works really well for him. him to like play the idiot champion. Sure. Because he's like also really good, but he's just a moron. He can be the moron. But Ambrose has got to be terrified.

Yeah. Because when he starts to get into moronny like, you know, goofball stuff, it just, he doesn't feel threatening anymore. I think that the, I think that you, if I, I mean, this is just off the top of my head. If he's not going to be carrying the belt, we got to, you should either try to do some sort of legend killer angle with him where he's just like, maybe he just wants to be in the main event so bad. He's just trying to stalk Shane.

until he has a match with him or something like that. Yeah, something like that. I mean, I think the other thing you can do is just put him in a, you know, give him a buddy. That's always a tried and true, actually not true. That's a tried and often failing wrestling booking policy. So many buddies right now, though. There are a lot of buddies. So many buddies.

But, you know, why not? I mean, like, yeah, yeah, I guess that, like, we don't need to see Dean Ambrose-Bray Wyatt again, but, like, you know, if there's a, I feel like there's a version of that feud where they could bring out the kind of worst and the best in each other. Yeah. Maybe that's the eventual Bray Wyatt baby face turn is there. But like it's not that he needs

to formally turn face, but you know, you could see a really good few between those two. Yeah. And I don't know, man. Maybe he'll finally, finally start the relationship

with Baron Corbyn that we've all been waiting for. Dean Ambrose and Barrett Corbyn look like two guys you wouldn't want to talk to at a bar. Absolutely. You could imagine that chemistry. Yeah. All right. So the main event, not main event.

The first match was a little bit of a little bit of a letdown, especially considering how overhyped I've made it. And then we can briefly run through these. I don't actually, no, we're not going to briefly run through these. The only match on this card that, there's only two matches on this card that Bear mentioned. One was Alexa Bliss versus Becky, which didn't happen. Right. I hope Becky's doing fine.

Seems like she is. There's been no holly blind items about her. So I think it's just probably some sort of stomach flu. I don't know. Yeah, something. If it's come out what it is, I have no idea. But it did seem like it was very strange to me. It was conspicuous how much they insisted upon the fact that it was not suffered in the ring,

whatever it happened to her. Yeah. I don't know if it's because they're so actively deflecting from the concussion situation or what. Well, and then to not only, so like if they say, oh, it didn't happen in the ring, then why tweet or Instagram a picture of yourself in a hospital gown and a hospital bed? Because then I start to go like, well, what the fuck? Like if you're going to go as far as to say it didn't happen in the ring, then just tell us what happened. I think the picture is important for to establish the legitimate, I guess, I don't know how much it matters. They could be k-fabing or whatever, but like I think, you know, in wrestling, it's always difficult for people to believe that what you're telling them is true.

Right. And they did need to establish that that was the case. I mean, listen, I don't think this is, you know, breathtaking information. The best thing about Sunday night and that, you know, it sucked, that match didn't happen. But I really felt like that pre-match promo that Alexa Bliss gave was like one of my first real moments where I thought Alexa Bliss was just like the top of the division. I think she's got it. I really do. I've seen it.

I've sort of, she's been one of those people in the last few months. that I've, you can really just see that being around all those other girls is like making, it's raising her bar. Sure. And it gets higher and higher and higher for her. And she just keeps meeting the expectation. I mean,

her, I mean, her, she had a lot of hype, but she was coming up through developmental and, and, and well deserved. I don't know what,

you know, but she kind of got lost in that shuffle down there. She was, she was, you know, the generation after the horse women or whatever. And there was, you know,

um, Yeah, I mean, and then there was like, Naya Jacks came up and there, and, and, and, yeah, I mean, there was a little, but she was, um, honestly, like, I, like, I'm surprised that she doesn't look tiny in the WWE ring. She always looked like, so tiny. But she looks smaller and on NXT to me, which I, you know, it's not a, not a deal breaker or anything. But, you know, you got to look a little bit legit. But I think that putting her and Becky together, you know, it's a slightly, uh, well, I mean, I don't know what Alexis standing next to Charlotte's going to look like, I guess is the, what I'm, getting at here. But, um, but, but I, but I, but I thought that she, I mean, she just, she felt like a real, like a real, like a real heel champion on Sunday night. And I, and I, I, I, that think that was just awesome. And how did you feel about that finish? Um, I don't even remember what happened. Didn't Naomi beat her. Oh yeah, yeah, because it was non-title match because they're, yeah, I mean, obviously there's no title involved. Um, yeah, I mean, listen. It was weird to me. Like, like, it's, they, they just, they had, it was actually a good move because they, they, they, they

mixed it up. Yeah, I know, but like I would have been much more impressed if, like, Naomi came down and gave her a great match and then, you know, Alexa sort of like was able to get over that hump and can now be like, you put anybody else that you want, I'm still coming for Becky Lynch.

But now it's like, oh, you got, Naomi kicked your ass, so I'm not going to be too worried about facing you when I'm back from Montezuma's revenge or whatever. I mean, I think part of it's the WW logic is you're going to mix up the card, right? I mean, there's not a lot happened on this show. We're not even, I don't even, I'm literally not letting you talk about Bray

White versus Randy Orden even if you wanted to, um, because I feel like we're going to be talking about that for another month anyway. I had nothing to say. The only other match that really matters. I mean, and again, this, it matters a great deal was Dove Ziegler versus the Miz. Yeah. Title versus career match. Yeah. Uh, which is, uh, I'll let me, I'll just start this off a little bit of it with like a little story. On the podcast last week, I feel like I was saying, you know, for a match that we all know exactly how it's going to end, this has been a really fun ride. Yeah. On Sunday, I was exchanging text messages with Sam Donsky and Sean Fennessey, who's the editor-in-chief of the ringer.com.

And we would all sort of, like, we all kind of picked Dolph Ziegler to win and then immediately was over-overcome with this, like, feeling like, oh, wait, maybe not. Like we somehow talked ourselves into the storyline. Yeah, I did as well, actually. But it's also, they're so over, we see so much of their personal lives now. And I know that he's got 5,000 other things going on. He wants to do stand up. He's got a thing he hosts for Fox. Like, he had a lot of stuff he wants to do.

And he's been doing this for a while, right? Takes a toll on the body. It takes a toll on the mind. And there was some weird, not weird. There was some, one of the wrestlers with a podcast, Flair, somebody said something about how WWE already has a backstage plan for him. Right. Like a job in waiting.

Oh, because he, well, he keeps doing the announce table stuff. Like, he's out there a lot. So there was a moment on, actually when I watched the day after, where I was like,

maybe he loses. Like, maybe he loses because that's what we're all not expecting. Yeah. I mean, if they hadn't said the thing where they said, no, you're not going to NXT,

you're not going to Japan or whatever. Right. You actually, he's just retired. I think I would have been 100% in on him losing because I could imagine him going to evolve or whatever. He was just working the indie, like doing the WWE endorsed version of what Cody's doing for a couple of months and then taking some time off to do his stuff. Yeah. I think coming back.

But even without that, I just said, I was like, as I was typing this, Dodonski, I found myself believing it. I was like, well, no, they could, he could just quit. I mean, he could just lose and then build this and then somehow slow burn the, back to an out-of-retirement match at WrestleMania, right? You could see him coming back, but of course, none of that happened. It ended exactly the way that we thought it would end. I feel a little bit better about my terrible prediction about the main event being a match of the year candidate, because we did sort of get a match of the year candidate on this card.

That Miz Ziegler match was really, really good. That feud has been really good. And, you know, I go on record. is not ever really being that much of a Ms. guy or a Dolph Ziegler guy. Yeah. But this feud, I've been really loving. I mean, I think they just are both right, like right in the prime of everything. Like, there's hitting everything the right moments.

Maris is, like, great for whatever weird reason. Whatever it is, she can never not be with the miss. Yeah. It's like really good. So it just goes to show you, man. Sometimes, you know, you just have to sort of trust that these things are going to, like you said, If you put somebody in a four-month story, if they're good at what they do, then they find a way to sort of make it happen. Yeah.

I mean, it's always going to be sort of like a relationship, right? We're like, the first month is just amazing. Yeah. Month two, you're just like, what am I doing here? You got to start figuring it out. Yeah. And everybody's, and everybody watching, I mean, I don't think that you can really correlate this to wrestling in relationships. But month two is hard as a fan.

You're just like, we've seen this before. Yeah. You know? I mean, it feels sort of repetitive. Then by like month three, you're sort of like, ah, you find your rhythm. It's good. Like, I, like, this is, there's a lot of benefits to this situation.

And then month four, if you're, if it's still working, then it's just spectacular. Right. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, listen, that match, like I say this every time there's a great match, we can talk about this forever. I do feel like, without getting too much into the details of like the, the, what happened in the match. I don't think that this was not a. traditional match of the year candidate sort of match.

They've been, obviously Ms. and Ziegler have been working very hard to, like, bring each other, like take each other up a level. Yeah. Since the beginning of the feud. And I think that it shows, but there was still like,

a lot of these times we say match of the year, match the year, whatever, like, there's a very kind of indie or whatever vibe to a WWE match, you know, it's like the sort of like, like, schmazzy, indie, or not even schmazzy,

but like a million close pinfalls, which this match had, but just sort of, it feels, I don't know, we give a lot of credit to something feeling not like WWE, which is legitimate in a lot of ways. This match felt 100% WWE. Yeah.

This is the sort of best case scenario of what WWE, like what can spring forth from the WWE rule like playbook. It felt slow burn to me too. It felt like in the beginning, I wasn't sure how it was, you know, sort of, I was in and out. And then it just, this is the great thing about wrestling. I try to explain this to people all the time. see a really good match where two people are communicating in all the right ways.

Uh-huh. The choreography is working the right way. The story's being told. It's not an instantaneous thing. Like, you don't start a match and go, this is fucking awesome. Right. Well, sometimes the crowd does. It's the build.

It's the build. And then when you get to the end and it's all said and done, you're like, holy shit, that was a fucking great story. I will say, like, the Miz had, like, did the kind of springboard power bomb or, you know, attempted the move twice. and neither time quite sunk. Like, it was, both of the bounces were a little bit weird. And I, and I remember noticing it and immediately not caring.

Like, I made the note, I made like half of a note, you know. And that goes to show, like, how, like, it felt like part of the fabric of the match. Yeah. And then, I feel fairly confident in saying Ms. hit the figure, I cared about a Ms. figure four for the first time in my life. And, I mean, or cared deeply about one. Yeah. I mean, it was, by the time that, like, he had that locked in, the end, I was just so into the match, you know?

I mean, I can't even remember a match where I bought as many false finishes. Yeah. Where I bought as many, like, many times I felt like someone was going to tap out to a submission hold that was just clear, like, in retrospect, it was just insane, like, that I would have thought that. Yeah. I mean, you're right. It's the slow build.

Yeah, always the slow ones. And if they get you in, then, you know, they can, like, wrestling just has such power over you by the end. Yeah. It's really, really incredible. And I like how they did that, how Maurice came with the spray in the eyes again. Like, it was sort of a greatest hits of the whole few. It was like, it was so good because you were like, oh, not again.

And then it's like, oh, he's powering through. It was a perfect moment because it gave that, that, that, they needed to do that because that allowed you, that allowed you to believe if you had, if you didn't already, that that Dolph could lose because he had a, he has, you know, argument for a rematch. Right. Or he has, you know, whatever. He's like, there's, there's more, more high. The little Zach Ryder finishing move in there, too, which...

Yeah. I love that when the guys pull out the one, like somebody else's move in that, or just like the one extra move. And they're like, I mean, those guys are like so super tied anyway. No, it's really good. And it makes sense, you know? You would learn how to do your buddy's move. Yeah, of course.

He would probably help him practice it a whole lot. Right. Listen, we got to get out of here. All right, man. But seriously, I mean, the Ms. and Ms. and Dalzigler are the winners of the week, for sure. Not that that's an official designation here, but, but, you know, it's a... I mean, I just can't

This is one of those moments where I'm glad that we can talk it up. I'm glad that we can talk about how good it was. There was an awful lot of pro wrestling that we had to pay attention to and I hope that doesn't get just like drowned out by ever by the you know 12 cage matches that we're going to see in the next month. So much stuff happening. I'm looking at the internet. I'm looking at squared circle on Reddit right now and the page the page blind item is

is topping the page. No pun intended. People are people are very uh, people are very uh, people are very into this. I mean, look, you know, unfortunately, this industry has a lot of bad history with such things. You hope that the WWE has learned lessons over the years that will allow them to be able to offer help and support.

Now, whether that's accepted by the other person is a big thing, but it's clear there's a lot of enabling going on in her world. and I I hope if any of it's true I hope that she gets help because I do believe she is a a wonderfully talented performer

and seems to be a wonderful person as well maybe just a little mixed up a lot of times we're talking about these you know the sad sides of wrestling and you know we'll talk about how it's sad that wrestlers are independent contractors and that we can talk about that another day I just think it bears mentioned that

there's a certain sort of person that wants to become a professional wrestler and there's a very very independent contractor sort of, I mean, sort of personality that it makes sense, you know. It's like being a rock and roller, you know. It's like you're going to be on the road 90% of your life. It's a hard life. It's ups and downs. You're putting your body through the fucking paces on a nightly basis. After WrestleMania and Santa Clara, on the way back, I stopped, we stayed for Raw the next night and drove home following that Raw. Stopped at a convenience store

and there's Rebella, like, buying a bag of chips and a bottle of soda because they're driving to, like, Anaheim, you know? And it just hit me that, like, it's a fucking hard life, man. It's a hard, hard life. Yeah. And they do it 300 days a year. Have you seen total Bellas yet? No.

There's a little bit of an insight in their weird life, although it's a little bit more, you know, it's a little bit glitzier. Well, this is two years ago, so maybe things have changed for them a bit. but yeah. It's just crazy. I will say, I got to talk about that show in more depth in the show, but it made me think of it because you just brought it up. I think we saw John Cena's the whole turn in the first episode of that show,

the one we've all been waiting for. It was spectacular. All right. Anyway, it is a hard life, and we really appreciate the wrestlers for entertaining us every week and putting themselves through this shit. It's what makes a finish like Dolf winning the Intercontinental Championship. really feel great because it's a fact. They've just put us,

they put themselves through so much hell to make us happy. And so does Steve Kazee? That's right. What's your Twitter handle? At Steve Kazee. And so do I. I don't feel bad at all saying we put ourselves through hell and making this podcast. Yeah, if you ever need to find my Twitter account,

you can just go to Dan St. Germain's page because all that dude does is sit and tweet at me all day long. Dan is a very, he's obsessed with me. He's obsessed with me. Comedians. Am I right? Yeah, exactly.

Listen, thanks for listening. And thanks for caring about wrestling as much as we do, humanoid. And thanks again to WW2K17 for sponsoring today's episode. All right, folks, get ready to be taken to Suplex City, courtesy of WW2K17. They're back once again as the defending WWE video game champion with its cover superstar Brock Lesner. WWE 2K17 features amazing graphics and gameplay as well as a gigantic roster. featuring the biggest and brightest W.W.E superstars past and present.

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